Scots Against Second Independence Referendum [Archive] - ThisisBigBrother.com

kirklancaster

30-06-2016, 06:28 AM

Scots Against Second Independence Referendum Despite Brexit Vote, Poll Shows

The Survation poll showed 44.7 percent of people think Scotland should not conduct a second independence referendum, compared to 41.9 percent in favor of a fresh vote.

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REUTERS - The Scots do not think there should be a second independence referendum, a poll showed on Sunday, days after Britain voted to leave the European Union despite strong Scottish support for remaining a member of the bloc.
The Survation poll showed 44.7 percent of people think Scotland should not conduct a second independence referendum, compared to 41.9 percent in favor of a fresh vote. In September 2014 Scotland rejected independence by 55 percent to 45 percent.

The prospect of a second referendum has been raised after Britain as a whole voted to leave the EU last week, despite results showing a large majority of Scots supported remaining within the bloc in every region of Scotland.

Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has said another referendum is "highly likely" and that Scotland would do whatever it takes to remain in the EU, including potentially blocking the legal process behind Britain's exit.
The poll of 1,002 people, conducted for the Daily Record and Daily Mirror on June 25, also showed that despite not favoring holding another referendum, if one were to be held immediately Scots would back a breakaway from the rest of Britain. Survation said 47 percent were in favor and 41.2 percent against.
Boris Johnson, the favorite to become Britain's next prime minister, said on Sunday that he did not detect "any real appetite" for another Scottish independence referendum.*

read more: http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/1.727306?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=htzcom&utm_campaign=desktopmonthlypromoted

Alf

30-06-2016, 06:49 AM

They should have a referendum, and if the Scottish people vote to be an independent Country, then that's what should happen.

If they want to remain then they're very welcome.

It's for the people of Scotland to decide their futures.

The same with Northern Ireland, and even Wales if they wanted one, although I'd be more happy to keep Wales after they voted the same way as England.

A question for Scottish members

If you went Independence, would you want to keep The Queen/future Kings' as your head of state like Canada, Australia and New Zealand or would you prefer a Republic?

reece(:

30-06-2016, 07:09 AM

A 1,000 person poll is not conclusive

kirklancaster

30-06-2016, 07:18 AM

No poll ever is, and increasingly, a lot of polls get it wrong, but it is a poll Reece and I merely reproduced the article.

joeysteele

30-06-2016, 07:56 AM

Why oh why does anyone honestly still have any faith whatsoever in polling, they get so much wrong they are a sideshow, a joke, nothing of any value at all now.

A poll came out last week that said 59% of Scots now would vote for independence and now even this poll does not give a clear answer anyway as to being in favour or not,, it has over 44% against and near 42% for.

Almost a 14% shortfall to make up the 100%

Inconclusive only,is what this poll is at best,that is just about all you can say about it.
I myself will not put any faith in any polling now, whether that is for general elections or referenda.

They get far too much wrong to be reliable and in fact, in my view,until they get things really right, they should be more controlled because they actually in my opinion mislead the public too, being so wrong as they have been for years now..

user104658

30-06-2016, 09:09 AM

kirklancaster

30-06-2016, 09:38 AM

To be honest I don't think this is the same as saying that they definitely wouldn't vote out if there was one... The reason so many people don't even want there to be one is simply that we're tired and have had enough. We've been to the polls for major things three times in a year. A lot left disheartened by the result last summer although fair enough, it was representative of the will of the people. Then you have the GE - Scotland overwhelmingly did not vote Tory. We got Tories anyway. Scotland overwhelmingly did not vote for Brexit. We got Brexit anyway.

I don't see much faith in voting up here at the moment... It feels like a charade.

We have a lot in common T.S. - I did not vote Tory - and I am pig sick of Elections and Referendums.

I was grousing that I did not like erections to a Japanese associate and he looked puzzled then asked me "Why? Don't you like shagging?" :hee:

Crimson Dynamo

30-06-2016, 09:46 AM

pretty much what TS said

joeysteele

30-06-2016, 09:52 AM

To be honest I don't think this is the same as saying that they definitely wouldn't vote out if there was one... The reason so many people don't even want there to be one is simply that we're tired and have had enough. We've been to the polls for major things three times in a year. A lot left disheartened by the result last summer although fair enough, it was representative of the will of the people. Then you have the GE - Scotland overwhelmingly did not vote Tory. We got Tories anyway. Scotland overwhelmingly did not vote for Brexit. We got Brexit anyway.

I don't see much faith in voting up here at the moment... It feels like a charade.

Good post and it annoys me when the UK parliament thinks it can just dismiss all that Scotland votes for too.
We have not really a UK parliament at all, it is an English one,the rest of the UK only matters when it agrees with England in the main.

Not the majority of English people but a strong and good number of the English MPs,particularly the farther South they come from.

user104658

30-06-2016, 10:05 AM

I think full indy is sadly broken now. I don't think it necessarily works at all after all of this. My opinion now is that the UK has probably seriously damaged itself, and actually, damaged the rest of Europe too. We've all been looking inwards a lot, there hasn't been much discussion of the effect that Brexit will have on the EU with one of the major pillars removed.

However you are totally right about the power imbalance as you shift southwards. My best case scenario, assuming Brexit does indeed follow through, is a "devo-max" solution for Scotland as part of the UK. Keep the union intact but fully devolve domestic decisions to Edinburgh.

I'd go even further and say that this might be the best solution for England, too: to be divided into three or four regions with similar devolved powers. London still "steering the ship" so to speak on the world stage (if we're even still relevant in 10 years time...) and devolved regional governments governing for the interests of the people of that region.

user104658

30-06-2016, 10:07 AM

"The United States of Britain" we could call it :joker:

Tom4784

30-06-2016, 10:24 AM

I hope they get another Referendum. The Brexit has shown that, when it comes down to it, England will always have the final say.

joeysteele

01-07-2016, 07:57 AM

I hope they get another Referendum. The Brexit has shown that, when it comes down to it, England will always have the final say.

That is what annoys me about this referendum, there are 4 supposed equal status Nations of the UK yet it is only the fact of the higher populated England that has decided this result.

So as you say England gets the final say, really it was a waste of time the Scots and Irish voting here.
It may as well have been lets just see what England thinks.
The Scots, Irish and Welsh votes combined, had a double figure percentage to 'remain'.
It was only England that totally changed that scenario form its higher populated base.

So the majorities Scotland and N Ireland registered became meaningless.
That is not a United kingdom of any standard in my opinion.

bots

01-07-2016, 08:05 AM

That is what annoys me about this referendum, there are 4 supposed equal status Nations of the UK yet it is only the fact of the higher populated England that has decided this result.

So as you say England gets the final say, really it was a waste of time the Scots and Irish voting here.
It may as well have been lets just see what England thinks.
The Scots, Irish and Welsh votes combined, had a double figure percentage to 'remain'.
It was only England that totally changed that scenario form its higher populated base.

So the majorities Scotland and N Ireland registered became meaningless.
That is not a United kingdom of any standard in my opinion.

Joey, I understand your point, but in this instance Scotland is a part of the UK, not a separate country. They voted last year to be a part of the UK. Their region voted to remain, but so did London, but the combined other regions outweighed their stance.

Scotland, as part of the UK has representation that reflects its relative population. Its only when you give it labels of a separate country that these objections can be raised. The referendum was UK, not Scotland, Wales, England and Ireland

joeysteele

01-07-2016, 08:46 AM

Joey, I understand your point, but in this instance Scotland is a part of the UK, not a separate country. They voted last year to be a part of the UK. Their region voted to remain, but so did London, but the combined other regions outweighed their stance.

Scotland, as part of the UK has representation that reflects its relative population. Its only when you give it labels of a separate country that these objections can be raised. The referendum was UK, not Scotland, Wales, England and Ireland

They voted in 2014 to remain a part of the UK partly also because they also were told that was the best way they could also protect their EU membership.

Since that is not the case now,that referendum is made void by the false guarantee.

David Cameron never expected to hold a EU referendum,never over the previous 2 years before the election did it look like any party could get an overall majority in May of 2015 and that was the case right until polling day.

No referendum was expected, David Cameron stipulated that he would only hold an 'in' 'out' referendum on the EU, IF the Conservatives got an overall majority.

The Scots were played again and now their concerns,vote and decision on the EU referendum should be dismissed only because of the might of England.
So a promise to the Scots can be broken as long as it is England that gets all its own way.

No way, that is not democracy,not in my book.

Maybe I see this differently because I am English by birth and lived in the West Midlands until I was 18,I am also of full Irish ancestry on my Mother's side and full Scottish ancestry on my Father's.

So what is now being said as to any UK wide referendum,immaterial of how the Nations vote,if it is different from the majority of England, and just because England is higher populated, they always have to accept losing.
Despite any previous promises or guarantees.

That then makes any UK wide referendum on anything pointless in my book.

arista

01-07-2016, 08:50 AM

"Why oh why does anyone honestly still have any faith whatsoever in polling, they get so much wrong they are a sideshow, a joke, nothing of any value at all now."

Bang On Right Joey

bots

01-07-2016, 09:23 AM

Maybe I see this differently because I am English by birth and lived in the West Midlands until I was 18,I am also of full Irish ancestry on my Mother's side and full Scottish ancestry on my Father's.

As I was born and raised in Scotland, no-one is more Scottish than me, but what we have from Nicola is a point of view born from her and her parties need for Scotland to be independent. She isn't capable of thinking of Scotland as a part of the UK, it always about Scotland as a separate entity.

The whole premise of the UK is that decisions are taken as a whole for the UK, not for its individual parts

user104658

01-07-2016, 09:32 AM

As I was born and raised in Scotland, no-one is more Scottish than me, but what we have from Nicola is a point of view born from her and her parties need for Scotland to be independent. She isn't capable of thinking of Scotland as a part of the UK, it always about Scotland as a separate entity.

Maybe so but this is made quite clear as being the intentions of the SNP and was in big, bold letters in all of their election campaign material. They were democratically elected at the last GE and Scottish Parliament elections to represent Scotland both in the country, and in Westminster, with voters perfectly aware of this. By considering Scotland as a separate entity - whether that is within the UK or not - She is therefore doing exactly what she was democratically elected to do.

The whole premise of the UK is that decisions are taken as a whole for the UK, not for its individual parts

It is but when a system clearly isn't working particularly fairly, the automatic reaction shouldn't be to throw up one hands and say "oh well, it is what it is". Questioning the system is perfectly valid, AND perfectly democratic.

kirklancaster

01-07-2016, 09:32 AM

They voted in 2014 to remain a part of the UK partly also because they also were told that was the best way they could also protect their EU membership.

Since that is not the case now,that referendum is made void by the false guarantee.

David Cameron never expected to hold a EU referendum,never over the previous 2 years before the election did it look like any party could get an overall majority in May of 2015 and that was the case right until polling day.

No referendum was expected, David Cameron stipulated that he would only hold an 'in' 'out' referendum on the EU, IF the Conservatives got an overall majority.

The Scots were played again and now their concerns,vote and decision on the EU referendum should be dismissed only because of the might of England.
So a promise to the Scots can be broken as long as it is England that gets all its own way.

No way, that is not democracy,not in my book.

Maybe I see this differently because I am English by birth and lived in the West Midlands until I was 18,I am also of full Irish ancestry on my Mother's side and full Scottish ancestry on my Father's.

So what is now being said as to any UK wide referendum,immaterial of how the Nations vote,if it is different from the majority of England, and just because England is higher populated, they always have to accept losing.
Despite any previous promises or guarantees.

That then makes any UK wide referendum on anything pointless in my book.

With respect Joey - In the time that I have been a forum member, I have seen you crusading for many causes and railing against others, but DEMOCRACY and Scotland being part of the United Kingdom, has not been one of them - until the result of the DEMOCRATIC result of the 'UK EU Referendum' went against your personal preferrance.

As BOTS rightly says - Scotland voted to remain in the UK and all this bally-hoo now is laughable.

Wasn't it the United Kingdom and not Scotland who was accepted into the EU by the EU? and did not Scotland ENTER the EU as PART of The United Kingdom, and not in her own right as a Country?

Then it is only right and fitting that Scotland leave the EU as part of The United Kingdom'.

Bleating now about 'Election' being 'Undemocratic' because.... is just ludicrous and tiresome.

The UK has a job to do now that we are finally free of the corrupt failed and failing EU, and this complaining is draining and deflective.

If Scotland REALLY do want to leave the UK, then let them hold a referendum, and if the result is to part from us, then they should be allowed to part.

If Scotland then want to join the EU, then that is a matter for Sturgeon and Salmond and any other 'fishy sounding' Scottish politicians.

Our Democracy is not perfect, but there is nothing better to replace it, and every free country in the world has followed our lead.

user104658

01-07-2016, 09:42 AM

With respect Joey - In the time that I have been a forum member, I have seen you crusading for many causes and railing against others, but DEMOCRACY and Scotland being part of the United Kingdom, has not been one of them - until the result of the DEMOCRATIC result of the 'UK EU Referendum' went against your personal preferrance.

As BOTS rightly says - Scotland voted to remain in the UK and all this bally-hoo now is laughable.

Wasn't it the United Kingdom and not Scotland who was accepted into the EU by the EU? and did not Scotland ENTER the EU as PART of The United Kingdom, and not in her own right as a Country?

Then it is only right and fitting that Scotland leave the EU as part of The United Kingdom'.

Bleating now about 'Election' being 'Undemocratic' because.... is just ludicrous and tiresome.

The UK has a job to do now that we are finally free of the corrupt failed and failing EU, and this complaining is draining and deflective.

If Scotland REALLY do want to leave the UK, then let them hold a referendum, and if the result is to part from us, then they should be allowed to part.

If Scotland then want to join the EU, then that is a matter for Sturgeon and Salmond and any other 'fishy sounding' Scottish politicians.

Our Democracy is not perfect, but there is nothing better to replace it, and every free country in the world has followed our lead.
The Scottish referendum result was a sham and truly undemocratic - it was swung entirely based on what have conclusively been proven to be outright lies. The whole thing is foul.

And this is not based on me wanting to force any change its purely an account of what DID happen. I at this point happen to agree that Scottish independence hopes are currently dead in the water and it would be a major mistake to pursue independence with Europe as it currently is. For better or worse, we're with the UK going forward and need to make the best of that. I personally would not pursue Scottish independence again, UNLESS the EU dissolves entirely, at which point it would be worth looking at again. So very unlikely to be in my lifetime, I've come to accept.

That said, I do think Scotland should be heavily pursuing devo-max controls over taxation and spending.

joeysteele

01-07-2016, 10:04 AM

The Scottish referendum result was a sham and truly undemocratic - it was swung entirely based on what have conclusively been proven to be outright lies. The whole thing is foul.

And this is not based on me wanting to force any change its purely an account of what DID happen. I at this point happen to agree that Scottish independence hopes are currently dead in the water and it would be a major mistake to pursue independence with Europe as it currently is. For better or worse, we're with the UK going forward and need to make the best of that. I personally would not pursue Scottish independence again, UNLESS the EU dissolves entirely, at which point it would be worth looking at again. So very unlikely to be in my lifetime, I've come to accept.

That said, I do think Scotland should be heavily pursuing devo-max controls over taxation and spending.

It seems the establishment of 'only' England can promise Scotland anything to make it fall in line but then when it suits England,any promise can be betrayed.

That is a great advert for England I am sure, its word means nothing.

Scotland did join the EU as part of the UK, that is the point, Scotland still wants to be in the EU and voted heavily to be so.
It was promised if it stayed in the UK in 2014, that its EU position would be secure.

Now let us imagine the outcry here in this scenario, had Scotland promised they will stay in the UK on that promise,then we had the EU referendum and say the UK had voted to stay but Scotland then again called for an Independence vote.
The tune would change massively and from the English govt particularly the Scots govt would rightly be getting hammered left right and centre.

Clearly England's word is meaningless and its promises from its govt worthless, that is really the only point here.

I am absolutely fed up of English MPs and some of England's citizenship riding through any concerns and the will of the other Nations of the UK.
The point here is Nicola sturgeon has to do all she can to keep Scotland in the EU, from her much larger mandate to do so, than any mandate the UK govt has.

It stuns me that all we are hearing from Westminster is the overall result and totally discounting that 2 Nations, 50% of the Countries in the UK,voted to remain by double figure majorities.

I say again,UK wide referenda are pointless if it all only has to go England's way no matter what the other Nations say.
If I lived in Scotland and had a vote, I'd support Nicola's efforts here and I would vote for independence too now after so many broken promises to Scotland,it being taken for granted and its will ignored for decades.

Livia

01-07-2016, 11:32 AM

When is it going to be England's turn to say whether we want Scotland to remain or not? Or are we going to go through this nonsense every year until Sturgeon gets the result she wants?

Livia

01-07-2016, 11:34 AM

bots

01-07-2016, 11:41 AM

jaxie

01-07-2016, 11:52 AM

It seems the establishment of 'only' England can promise Scotland anything to make it fall in line but then when it suits England,any promise can be betrayed.

That is a great advert for England I am sure, its word means nothing.

Scotland did join the EU as part of the UK, that is the point, Scotland still wants to be in the EU and voted heavily to be so.
It was promised if it stayed in the UK in 2014, that its EU position would be secure.

Now let us imagine the outcry here in this scenario, had Scotland promised they will stay in the UK on that promise,then we had the EU referendum and say the UK had voted to stay but Scotland then again called for an Independence vote.
The tune would change massively and from the English govt particularly the Scots govt would rightly be getting hammered left right and centre.

Clearly England's word is meaningless and its promises from its govt worthless, that is really the only point here.

I am absolutely fed up of English MPs and some of England's citizenship riding through any concerns and the will of the other Nations of the UK.
The point here is Nicola sturgeon has to do all she can to keep Scotland in the EU, from her much larger mandate to do so, than any mandate the UK govt has.

It stuns me that all we are hearing from Westminster is the overall result and totally discounting that 2 Nations, 50% of the Countries in the UK,voted to remain by double figure majorities.

I say again,UK wide referenda are pointless if it all only has to go England's way no matter what the other Nations say.
If I lived in Scotland and had a vote, I'd support Nicola's efforts here and I would vote for independence too now after so many broken promises to Scotland,it being taken for granted and its will ignored for decades.

But wasn't the SNP's campaign run very largely on the premise that Scotland could live off North Sea Oil? The oil prices have now tanked so how would an independent Scotland finance itself? You are shouting up for a cause that just doesn't have any substance in the current climate. Even Sturgeon knows this is why she is couching her language in such a cagey way and isn't screaming for an immediate referendum.

I find your bitterness over the referendum a bit sad Joey. I hope you can find peace with it over time. Part of being in a democracy is accepting that the will of the people doesn't always go your way. But we are all very lucky to live in a democracy where we can express our views and have a say. China isn't even allowed to read the internet outside of it's own country.

kirklancaster

01-07-2016, 11:59 AM

jaxie

01-07-2016, 12:01 PM

lets also consider the nature of how Scotland ended up in the EU in the first place. It was dragged in to the EU as a result of a UK decision to do so, not a Scottish decision. Right back 40 years ago when we first joined, if Scotland had been given the individual choice to join, it would have told the UK to **** right off then :laugh:

As I said on another thread I think that Sturgeon's desperation to remain in the EU is more about her separatist agenda than anything else. She knows that for Scotland to be independent it needs an umbrella of some sort to prop it up because it doesn't have the means to stand alone.

What I don't really get is why you'd want to swap one umbrella for another. Scotland will probably have more power over it's own destiny in an independent UK than in a federal Europe. :shrug: Is it really all just about deep seated hatred of the English?

kirklancaster

01-07-2016, 12:04 PM

As I said on another thread I think that Sturgeon's desperation to remain in the EU is more about her separatist agenda than anything else. She knows that for Scotland to be independent it needs an umbrella of some sort to prop it up because it doesn't have the means to stand alone.

What I don't really get is why you'd want to swap one umbrella for another. Scotland will probably have more power over it's own destiny in an independent UK than in a federal Europe. :shrug: Is it really all just about deep seated hatred of the English?

Aye - I think ye might be right, ye canny lassie. :hee:

Greg!

01-07-2016, 12:33 PM

The poll also shows that Scotland would vote for independence. I think some of the people who are against another referendum are yes voters who think they would lose

joeysteele

01-07-2016, 02:22 PM

But wasn't the SNP's campaign run very largely on the premise that Scotland could live off North Sea Oil? The oil prices have now tanked so how would an independent Scotland finance itself? You are shouting up for a cause that just doesn't have any substance in the current climate. Even Sturgeon knows this is why she is couching her language in such a cagey way and isn't screaming for an immediate referendum.

I find your bitterness over the referendum a bit sad Joey. I hope you can find peace with it over time. Part of being in a democracy is accepting that the will of the people doesn't always go your way. But we are all very lucky to live in a democracy where we can express our views and have a say. China isn't even allowed to read the internet outside of it's own country.

This isn't really about the referendum except in that the Scots voted 62% to remain in the EU.
Although I think the referendum was a disgrace start to end from 'all' involved in it on both sides..

It is about the right of Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland to call another independence referendum in light of the result and its desire to remain in the EU and in the light of a promise broken by the UK govt..

The fact the UK PM and the deputy PM at the time,Nick Clegg, also the leader of the Opposition,Ed Miliband made a promise that Scotland's future in the EU was secure if they voted to stay part of the UK.
The fact that promise,it seems as to a good few is fine to be now broken and Scotland's needs dismissed, That's what I am angry about.

As anyone would be at any promise made being broken.
A promise to a Nation indeed to anyone,should not be broken.

jaxie

01-07-2016, 02:45 PM

This isn't really about the referendum except in that the Scots voted 62% to remain in the EU.
Although I think the referendum was a disgrace start to end from 'all' involved in it on both sides..

It is about the right of Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland to call another independence referendum in light of the result and its desire to remain in the EU and in the light of a promise broken by the UK govt..

The fact the UK PM and the deputy PM at the time,Nick Clegg, also the leader of the Opposition,Ed Miliband made a promise that Scotland's future in the EU was secure if they voted to stay part of the UK.
The fact that promise,it seems as to a good few is fine to be now broken and Scotland's needs dismissed, That's what I am angry about.

As anyone would be at any promise made being broken.
A promise to a Nation indeed to anyone,should not be broken.

So you are advocating a Scottish referendum without any thought to what monies Scotland will survive on? You claim Scotland's needs were dismissed, what about their need to survive day to day as a country? They are not in the same position they were in in 2014. There are clear indications there is opposition to them joining the EU. I thought you were a labour voter with a social conscience. It sounds more like you want to throw Scotland under a bus to prove some sort of convoluted point. :shrug:

joeysteele

01-07-2016, 02:53 PM

So you are advocating a Scottish referendum without any thought to what monies Scotland will survive on? You claim Scotland's needs were dismissed, what about their need to survive day to day as a country? They are not in the same position they were in in 2014. There are clear indications there is opposition to them joining the EU. I thought you were a labour voter with a social conscience. It sounds more like you want to throw Scotland under a bus to prove some sort of convoluted point. :shrug:

Far from it, I love Scotland and know there are those against independence.
It may well be that the Scots would reject independence again.
I am not going to base any opinion on sideshow opinion polls who make mistake after mistake as to public opinion.

The only poll that matters where actual votes are cast, showed 62% of Scots voting to stay in the EU.

Therefore I believe Nicola is right to do all she can to secure that and I think you play Scotland down rather.
I think it is a Nation that could gather a lot of support for it from around the world.
I am Labour member with a social conscience what on earth has that got to do with this?

However,the fact you can accept your govt breaking its promises to another Nation in the UK worries me far more, with respect, than my stance on this.

jaxie

01-07-2016, 02:59 PM

Far from it, I love Scotland and know there are those against independence.
It may well be that the Scots would reject independence again.
I am not going to base any opinion on sideshow opinion polls who make mistake after mistake as to public opinion.

The only poll that matters where actual votes are cast, showed 62% of Scots voting to stay in the EU.

Therefore I believe Nicola is right to do all she can to secure that and I think you play Scotland down rather.
I think it is a Nation that could gather a lot of support for it from around the world.
I am Labour member with a social conscience what on earth has that got to do with this?

However,the fact you can accept your govt breaking its promises to another Nation in the UK worries me far more, with respect, than my stance on this.

No putting words in my mouth Joey, I've not stated what I accept and don't accept about the government so you can have that argument all by yourself. :nono: I can't help feel you are missing the point. The point I'm trying to make to you is the 62% is completely irrelevant if Scotland has no means to support itself after a referendum and the EU, which could prop it up if it left the UK, are not offering open welcoming arms. I'm not playing anyone down, I'm asking how they will support themselves.

joeysteele

01-07-2016, 03:07 PM

No putting words in my mouth Joey, I've not stated what I accept and don't accept about the government so you can have that argument all by yourself. :nono: I can't help feel you are missing the point. The point I'm trying to make to you is the 62% is completely irrelevant if Scotland has no means to support itself after a referendum and the EU, which could prop it up if it left the UK, are not offering open welcoming arms.

The EU has neither dismissed Scotland or embraced it, all it has said is out of respect for the UK exit, nothing can be talked about until after the dealings with the UK govt.

If what the UK govt and the EU finally do, if it's not acceptable to the Scots, and the Scots go for independence then that will be the time the EU can talk to and negotiate with them.

Until then, Nicola Sturgeon has simply, this week, put on the EU table the view that if the UK leaves the EU, Scotland wants to remain part of the EU

Nothing about being welcomed with open arms or being rejected, simply the right channels to go through as to all stages.
All she needs to do is get an independence vote though Holyrood, which she can as the Greens support her too on this.
Then get it enacted at the appropriate time.

jaxie

01-07-2016, 03:14 PM

The EU has neither dismissed Scotland or embraced it, all it has said is out of respect for the UK exit, nothing can be talked about until after the dealings with the UK govt.

If what the UK govt and the EU finally do, if it's not acceptable to the Scots, and the Scots go for independence then that will be the time the EU can talk to and negotiate with them.

Until then, Nicola Sturgeon has simply, this week, put on the EU table the view that if the UK leaves the EU, Scotland wants to remain part of the EU

Nothing about being welcomed with open arms or being rejected, simply the right channels to go through as to all stages.
All she needs to do is get an independence vote though Holyrood, which she can as the Greens support her too on this.
Then get it enacted at the appropriate time.

Spain has said absolutely no to Scotland for it's own political reasons. The rest of the EU can't do anything if they can't get a consensus. Anyone of any importance at all would not meet her when she went off to the EU, she just got a bit of tea of sympathy from people who will have no say whether Scotland joins or not.

And again you are missing the point. Nicola Sturgeon needs the EU if she is to have any hope of independance. She can't call a vote without signed, sealed and delivered assurances Scotland can remain in the EU. This is not going to happen.

the truth

01-07-2016, 04:48 PM

scotland already has the bets of both worlds a parliament , yet they still votes on matters in england and wales but we dont vote on their laws? tax raising powers will be their next goal after their non existent eu deal goes up in smoke

joeysteele

01-07-2016, 05:40 PM

Spain has said absolutely no to Scotland for it's own political reasons. The rest of the EU can't do anything if they can't get a consensus. Anyone of any importance at all would not meet her when she went off to the EU, she just got a bit of tea of sympathy from people who will have no say whether Scotland joins or not.

And again you are missing the point. Nicola Sturgeon needs the EU if she is to have any hope of independance. She can't call a vote without signed, sealed and delivered assurances Scotland can remain in the EU. This is not going to happen.

No one has any certainty as to how the EU will react to the situation when it comes up.

As for your certainty, sorry I doubt anyone can be certain, time will tell but for as long as the SNP rule in Scotland and the govt of the UK keep taking them for granted and breaking promises, the likelihood of independence will always be a strong possibility.

As for Spain,yes there are issues there,however the EU will likely, if it wanted to, be able to offer some concessions to Spain.

Also, if she really wanted to, she could still call for an independence referendum for the breaking of the guarantee that Scotland future was secure in they voted to stay in the UK.
Which is another major point in my view.

The SNP lost its overall majority very narrowly in the Holyrood elections this year, any more losses next time could well start to change things up there.
Fortunately for Nicola she saw the Greens get some seats and they support a independence referendum.

Time may run out if she does not seize this further opportunity now.
She will for sure have even more ammunition if this new PM refuses to have a general election,which leaves Scotland under a Conservative govt they did not vote for and also being taken out of the EU against the will of the Scots too.

This must seem like Christmas coming early for Nicola Sturgeon and she is not the kind of politician to miss taking the best chances she gets.
Nor should she in my view.

Anyway as ever with you,although we disagree I always enjoy our debates.

jaxie

01-07-2016, 05:56 PM

No one has any certainty as to how the EU will react to the situation when it comes up.

As for your certainty, sorry I doubt anyone can be certain, time will tell but for as long as the SNP rule in Scotland and the govt of the UK keep taking them for granted and breaking promises, the likelihood of independence will always be a strong possibility.

As for Spain,yes there are issues there,however the EU will likely, if it wanted to, be able to offer some concessions to Spain.

Also, if she really wanted to, she could still call for an independence referendum for the breaking of the guarantee that Scotland future was secure in they voted to stay in the UK.
Which is another major point in my view.

The SNP lost its overall majority very narrowly in the Holyrood elections this year, any more losses next time could well start to change things up there.
Fortunately for Nicola she saw the Greens get some seats and they support a independence referendum.

Time may run out if she does not seize this further opportunity now.
She will for sure have even more ammunition if this new PM refuses to have a general election,which leaves Scotland under a Conservative govt they did not vote for and also being taken out of the EU against the will of the Scots too.

This must seem like Christmas coming early for Nicola Sturgeon and she is not the kind of politician to miss taking the best chances she gets.
Nor should she in my view.

I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to myself as I don't think you are listening to anything I'm saying! Just a FYI the Queen rules in Scotland, the SNP is the majority government. You might want to read a little about the EU and Spain and separatist movements, and what a great deal Scotland has within the UK as you are coming across to me as if you've not read much about either. Good luck with that if it interests you.

bots

01-07-2016, 06:01 PM

jaxie

01-07-2016, 07:12 PM

Spain will never support Scotland getting in the EU because it would encourage their own regions to do something similar.

I agree, there isn't a concession in the world that would make Spain change that position.

Also, I don't think Scotland is financially strong enough to be a net contributor, so having lost the UK, why would any country in Europe want their share of the dosh to reduce.

I think you probably said it better and more clearly than I did!

joeysteele

01-07-2016, 07:12 PM

I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to myself as I don't think you are listening to anything I'm saying! Just a FYI the Queen rules in Scotland, the SNP is the majority government. You might want to read a little about the EU and Spain and separatist movements, and what a great deal Scotland has within the UK as you are coming across to me as if you've not read much about either. Good luck with that if it interests you.

Absolutely no need for that response whatsoever,and I think I do know at least a little bit about politics actually and international politics too,although my main interests is UK politics.
If politicians have the desire to do something,in the UK or anywhere around the World, there are ways they can, and will, find to do it.
That is all I am saying and pointing out.

Also,I do fail to grasp this one I admit, the Queen actually rules nowhere at all,she is a figurehead Monarch only, she cannot tell anyone to do a single thing, outside of her own family,if she ever tried to, she would cause a constitutional crisis.
Which I am sure you know that anyway.

It is the elected Scottish parliament and majority or leading party that rules in Scotland on a strong number of devolved issues, the other issues are ruled by the UK govt in Westminster.
Nothing at all to do with the Queen.
All she does is annually read a speech written for her by the govt, she can never disagree or leave out anything that is in it, or refuse to allow any of it.

Also, I really hate to correct anyone but the SNP is not now a majority govt in Scotland at all,it is now a minority one actually, having lost its overall majority in the May elections this year.
Hence why Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will need the Green MSPs at Holyrood to help it get any independence act through the Scottish parliament in Holyrood.

Which will then also have to permitted afterwards by the UK government in Westminster.

A very long way to go but the SNP have achieved it before with Alex Salmond,so to rule out another referendum on independence out is pure guesswork.
I also actually do not think Scotland has that great a deal with the UK,I do think both benefit from being in Union but that is as far as I would go on that one.

Scotland has never voted for a Conservative govt. from even before we were in Europe as the EEC and then the EU,yet it has had to live under one just as Wales has too.
I doubt a great number of Scots would agree they have a great deal or have had a great deal from the UK governments over the last few decades particularly under Conservatives,Labour and the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition.

None of my family and friends across Scotland would say they have for sure.

Liberty4eva

02-07-2016, 02:38 AM

England and Wales need to break free. Let Scotland do what Scotland does but don't delay leaving a second more. They'll just be begging to be let back into the UK once the EU collapses anyways.

Johnnyuk123

02-07-2016, 03:45 AM

Scotland have more chance of winning the European football cup 2016 than they have of rejoining the EU. Oh wait...

kirklancaster

02-07-2016, 06:02 AM

I think you probably said it better and more clearly than I did!

BOTS always says it more succinctly and better than anyone Jax - It's a gift he has - the TWOT :laugh:

kirklancaster

02-07-2016, 06:03 AM

Scotland have more chance of winning the European football cup 2016 than they have of rejoining the EU. Oh wait...

:laugh:

arista

24-01-2021, 07:02 AM

A 1,000 person poll is not conclusive

Well of course now
its has changed 5 years later
In the Sunday Times , today.

Someone was viewing this thread
that why its alive again

arista

24-01-2021, 07:04 AM

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/B198/production/_116646454_sunday-times-nc.png

arista

24-01-2021, 10:52 AM

1353289501049815040

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 11:11 AM

I'm not sure he's frightened by it.
I think he just has a tendency to not accept it and not believe in it, when it doesn't suit him.
Worrying that should be in my view.

Samm

24-01-2021, 11:41 AM

arista

24-01-2021, 11:45 AM

Livia

24-01-2021, 12:50 PM

Nicola Sturgeon has 5 million people to worry about. London alone has twice that number. And the perception is that she's done a great job. But that's perception for you. More people, proportionally, have been dying from Covid in Scotland than in England.

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 02:06 PM

The Union is dead, brexit and covid have made that clear, ever since 2016 this country has been going down a slippery slope, isolating its self and loosing touch with the younger generation. I’m embarrassed to be british, I would much rather class myself as European. I think there’s a lot of underlying problems like this current government, the unhealthy obsession with the war and probably the monarchy. A big change like a republic country would be a starting point.

I agree with a lot you list there.

I have always thought brexit would split the Union irreparably.
With this useless PM we have, there's no chance of unifying the UK in my view.

Neither under his 2 leaders before him.

I can see the movement growing in N Ireland too.
However during the EU campaign some Con supporters the break up of the UK was a price worth paying for brexit.
So they are likely to get that.

I'm happy to think of myself as British and European.
Then I'd rather move closer to than move away from other Nations.

Of course there's many, obviously even in polling it's still over 4 in 10 who don't want Scotland to be independent..
In UK democracy 4 in 10 don't matter as in the EU referendum.

Therein lies the problem now in my view in part.
Under successive governments, I include Blair in this and other Prime Ministers.
( I'll exclude Gordon Brown).
Scotland's opinions don't matter, certainly not to this PM and a strong force in his party as to backbenchers..who can only set out to ridicule and put down any representation from those sent by Scottish voters, except their own handful of MPs in the Con party.

For as long as the SNP remain strong and they're seemingly getting stronger.
Then independence will always be on the agenda.
Which is what the SNP has always wanted, hence their name.
So it's no surprise.

For, and I've said this before, a UK government to in effect keep Scotland hostage in the UK, against the now clear will of the majority of Scots voters.
Is unsustainable and will lead to massive likely constitutional chaos.

So I thought it once unthinkable even over my 28 years to think of the break up of the UK.
Sadly, brexit, this awful PM and his hard-line rotten government however, could well really have already started to plant the seeds that will destroy the existence of both the UK and indeed Great Britain.

I also doubt, as that gains more momentum, that Wales will just want to be stuck with England as a kind of just Wales-shire of England.

This isn't scientific in any ways.
However of 12 of my own relatives in Scotland who will reach voting age this year at 18.
9 would now vote for independence in a referendum.
So as you say, it seems possibly more of the newer younger voters, will be demanding this issue to not be taken away, or to even go away.

Cherie

24-01-2021, 02:38 PM

Oliver_W

24-01-2021, 02:46 PM

1353289501049815040

"Frightened of democracy" says the woman who wants to ignore the results of two different referenda :joker:

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 03:08 PM

"Frightened of democracy" says the woman who wants to ignore the results of two different referenda :joker:

Except she's not frightened to hold votes in the light of public opinion changing.

She could be condemned were she not standing up still for the 62% of her voters who voted to remain.

In a democracy you can and do change your mind and by voting that change of opinion is expressed.
If voting is denied, then that could be from fear of the now result.

It's why we vote in elections every 4/5 years.
In fact the voters have been asked to change their minds between 2015 to 2020, 3 times in as many general elections.

The Scottish referendum was over 6 years ago now..
The EU one over 4 years ago

She's happy to hold more, with the support of her Party and the voters who back her in direct Scottish elections plus sending the vast majority of SNP MPs to Westminster.

So she has no issue with votes and democracy.
However the UK PM and government has.

Only one element fearing the result of more voting there that I can see.
Because they know they're wrong and doing wrong too.

Cherie

24-01-2021, 03:36 PM

Pretty sure Nicola said at the time of indyref it was 'once in a lifetime' that said the last year has seemed like a lifetime :laugh:

I hope they get their second indyref, I doubt it would shut her up if she lost again though

Crimson Dynamo

24-01-2021, 03:40 PM

Oliver_W

24-01-2021, 03:56 PM

arista

24-01-2021, 04:05 PM

UK Prime Minister
will Block it 100%.

No 2nd Vote Permitted
FACT

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 04:10 PM

She seems to be of the "keep trying until we get the answer I want" school of democracy .

Is that not what has been done in 3 elections in 4 years until a substantial majority was won.

It's called democracy.

Plus the Scots were told in 2014, by Cameron, their best way to stay in the EU was to vote against independence.

Or does that statement not matter either.
That was sheer deceit in my view.

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 04:28 PM

UK Prime Minister
will Block it 100%.

No 2nd Vote Permitted
FACT

How many times has he said NO repeatedly to something then been forced to do it.

He CANNOT act like a Soviet Union leader and keep people who no longer want to be part of his brand of the UK, hostage.

If the support stays and/ rises further for independence he would lead us into an unknown constitutional crisis.
Which he could not probably control.

Plus,IF he dictates his own will against the wishes of a growing majority of Scots voters.
Then he'll lead things into the court arena again.

He can huff and puff all he likes, however in now LESS than 4 years time, he could or his successor be leading at best only a minority government.

He has no assured votes then to deny the demands of a majority of Scots.
Or those in N Ireland either.

He's just a man arista he's not a god!!!!!

Samm

24-01-2021, 06:21 PM

everyone from Europe is European, you have to hail from some country in Europe, its not really that simple to say I'm European and not British as your passport will say otherwise :shrug:

and if you no really no longer want to be British then you will have to move elsewhere apply for residency, live there for the requisite number of years required and then apply for that country's passport

British people have never been required by economics to move outside their home country except by choice and they really come across as spoilt brats at times

Obviously, however in terms of lifestyle I feel I relate more to a European style, of course I can't erase that i'm from here, I didn't state I was.

Yes I know, that's exactly what i've been doing for the past few months, I know the logistics of it all cherry. I don't quite get your last point? I'm quite aware were mostly a privileged country (even though there is a great deal of poverty). However I believe in the right that anyone should be able to move anywhere within certain guidelines, since when was exploring different parts of the world and escaping this some what depressing island being entitled as spoilt? Not aiming this at you here however like many Brexiters state "if you don't like it here then leave!" :shrug:

How many times has he said NO repeatedly to something then been forced to do it.

He CANNOT act like a Soviet Union leader and keep people who no longer want to be part of his brand of the UK, hostage.

If the support stays and/ rises further for independence he would lead us into an unknown constitutional crisis.
Which he could not probably control.

Plus,IF he dictates his own will against the wishes of a growing majority of Scots voters.
Then he'll lead things into the court arena again.

He can huff and puff all he likes, however in now LESS than 4 years time, he could or his successor be leading at best only a minority government.

He has no assured votes then to deny the demands of a majority of Scots.
Or those in N Ireland either.

He's just a man arista he's not a god!!!!!

Yep! with the local elections this May and SNP heading for a big win. I think after this COVID mess, the next struggle for this government will be Scottish independence if there's a overwhelming support for a vote he would have to give in.

arista

24-01-2021, 06:27 PM

How many times has he said NO repeatedly to something then been forced to do it.

He CANNOT act like a Soviet Union leader and keep people who no longer want to be part of his brand of the UK, hostage.

If the support stays and/ rises further for independence he would lead us into an unknown constitutional crisis.
Which he could not probably control.

Plus,IF he dictates his own will against the wishes of a growing majority of Scots voters.
Then he'll lead things into the court arena again.

He can huff and puff all he likes, however in now LESS than 4 years time, he could or his successor be leading at best only a minority government.

He has no assured votes then to deny the demands of a majority of Scots.
Or those in N Ireland either.

He's just a man arista he's not a god!!!!!

No he is not a Russian Leader
but he can still say NO

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 06:41 PM

No he is not a Russian Leader
but he can still say NO

He would be acting like one IF and it's a big IF, he dared to deny Scotland a referendum following a strong SNP election and constant or rising public opinion for one AND Independence.

If he got away with denying that in those circumstances, he would beyond doubt be acting like a Soviet leader.
By holding another Nation and its people hostage.

You credit him with integrity as to his word.
I don't, because he has none!!
Certainly not politically.

Beso

24-01-2021, 07:24 PM

He would be acting like one IF and it's a big IF, he dared to deny Scotland a referendum following a strong SNP election and constant or rising public opinion for one AND Independence.

If he got away with denying that in those circumstances, he would beyond doubt be acting like a Soviet leader.
By holding another Nation and its people hostage.

You credit him with integrity as to his word.
I don't, because he has none!!
Certainly not politically.

I ain't seen any planes flying over the border like Putin's reaction to Ukraine.

user104658

24-01-2021, 07:34 PM

More people, proportionally, have been dying from Covid in Scotland than in England.

Why would you post something so confidently online that's is provably just flat out false? :joker:

I'm not going to pretend Scotland is doing great, on the whole the numbers and the shapes of the graphs more or less mirror England, but as the current figures stand, deaths in England are at 139 per 100,000 population and deaths in Scotland are at 105 per 100,000 population, meaning that proportionately, deaths in England are about 30% higher. I'm on my phone right now but I'm happy to post the actual figures and graphs at a later time.

Its not a competition of course, just not sure why you'd post something that's outright untrue when all that's needed to disprove it is Google and a calculator.

user104658

24-01-2021, 07:36 PM

She seems to be of the "keep trying until we get the answer I want" school of democracy .That is the very basis OF democracy...

The whole concept of the democratic process can be summed up as; "This is what we want right now, but ask again later because we might change our minds". That's how the whole thing works.

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 07:39 PM

I ain't seen any planes flying over the border like Putin's reaction to Ukraine.

I said he 'WOULD' be acting like one 'IF' he did refuse in the circumstances I outlined, not that he 'WAS' or 'IS' one.

HOWEVER jump in and nitpick as usual, if you must.

Beso

24-01-2021, 07:52 PM

If you are going to lay out ridiculous comparisons you will get ridiculous answers.

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 07:58 PM

If you are going to lay out ridiculous comparisons you will get ridiculous answers.

I'm really not in the slightest interested in what you think with respect.
I never really engage with you on here.

It won't at all however be a ridiculous comparison, IF and it's a big IF, he did REALLY choose to use his power to go down that road.

Quite frankly I don't recall even asking a question to answer anyway.

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 07:59 PM

That is the very basis OF democracy...

The whole concept of the democratic process can be summed up as; "This is what we want right now, but ask again later because we might change our minds". That's how the whole thing works.

It is you're right.

Beso

24-01-2021, 08:02 PM

joeysteele

24-01-2021, 08:11 PM

If it's such a big IF, why make the comparison in the first place..all that does is divide further.

Let's get bb back, and your memory of our interactions on that from 2010 onwards b4 you pathetically attempt to distance yourself from me.

2010 onwards and BB are years ago now.

Also I'll make any comparisons I wish to that are within forum rules.
I thankfully don't need your permission to my knowledge to do so.

Also I didn't engage with you, I was talking to and with arista and Samm.

I won't respond again, so have a nice evening.

Beso

24-01-2021, 08:29 PM

I already am, thanks

Ammi

25-01-2021, 08:00 AM

user104658

25-01-2021, 09:15 AM

Imagine if people had voted Boris into office in 2019 and it had been like "right, well, that's that then, Tories for the next hundred years! The people have spoken!"

That said, I do think it's too early, simply because of Brexit. Like it or not, we're on a small island with a land border with England, and being out of the EU now means that border gets very complicated (ESPECIALLY if Scotland was to rejoin the EU). Basically I think the trade situation between the UK and EU needs to settle down before it can even be considered, sadly.

Secret option number 3 of course is staying outside of the "full" EU whilst having tailored deals with both the EU and England, allowing EU-England trade to flow through Scotland and making us super rich :omgno:.

We want our happy Scottish fish :fist:

arista

25-01-2021, 09:49 AM

...once in a lifetime could never be democracy and Boris’ NO isn’t democracy either...if the Scottish people want another referendum, if that’s the will of the people ...then I hope that they can get it...

Its Not just the once in a lifetime,
also, it's because of the Pandemic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic

James

25-01-2021, 05:37 PM

I came across this article (titled 'Paean to Britain') by the TV presenter Neil Oliver that is basically what I think about all this.

Here it is - https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i366/neil_olivers_paean_to_britain.aspx

Also I was thinking recently about how with the US election that some Trump supporters were supporting the idea that some states would breakaway from the United States, and how that is just as ridiculous as this.

Oliver_W

25-01-2021, 06:50 PM

What's their end endgame? They want to be an independent country ... Under Nicola Sturgeon?

Okay then :joker:

Crimson Dynamo

25-01-2021, 07:14 PM

Most scots think Nicola is doing a great job

https://www.thenational.scot/resources/images/12257244.jpg?display=1&htype=0&type=responsive-gallery

Oliver_W

25-01-2021, 07:27 PM

Most scots think Nicola is doing a great job

https://www.thenational.scot/resources/images/12257244.jpg?display=1&htype=0&type=responsive-gallery

Who am I to talk, we're ruled by Boris Bloody Johnson :joker: But at least the England part of the country sees him for the clown he is! (I hope)

joeysteele

25-01-2021, 07:39 PM

Who am I to talk, we're ruled by Boris Bloody Johnson :joker: But at least the England part of the country sees him for the clown he is! (I hope)

England sees Johnson as a clown.
I don't think so.
It's really England that elected him.

For me, Nicola Sturgeon is the only real states-person as to any part of the UK leadership.
Which is also why in part she's hands down winning on the independence issue too.
Because she's the only open and trustworthy leader in my opinion.

user104658

25-01-2021, 07:43 PM

England sees Johnson as a clown.
I don't think so.
It's really England that elected him.

For me, Nicola Sturgeon is the only real states-person as to any part of the UK leadership.
Which is also why in part she's hands down winning on the independence issue too.
Because she's the only open and trustworthy leader in my opinion.

I think that's part of the uncomfortable truth in England; rising support for Scottish independence has less to do with increased Scottish nationalism, and more to do with increased skepticism for the government sitting in Westminster. A lot of people now supporting Indy would - as their first choice - much rather see fairer and more competent government for the whole of the UK but it's becoming painfully obvious that it's just not going to happen... not any time soon. So any way of getting away from it is the next best option.

Crimson Dynamo

25-01-2021, 07:50 PM

I think that's part of the uncomfortable truth in England; rising support for Scottish independence has less to do with increased Scottish nationalism, and more to do with increased skepticism for the government sitting in Westminster. A lot of people now supporting Indy would - as their first choice - much rather see fairer and more competent government for the whole of the UK but it's becoming painfully obvious that it's just not going to happen... not any time soon. So any way of getting away from it is the next best option.

i think most scots watch Nicola and watch the mess down south with Hancock and work it out..

Oliver_W

25-01-2021, 07:51 PM

England sees Johnson as a clown.
I don't think so.
It's really England that elected him.

Back then he was just a "good ole boy" who was the last halfway decent Mayor of London, and generally an amusing buffoon. Covid wasn't a thing yet, so his levels of incompetence weren't yet widely known.

Also, he was against Jeremy Corbyn. When there are two bad options, voting for a party headed by either of them is hardly a ringing endorsement.

(For what it's worth, I spoiled my ballot. I wanted a hung parliament, I couldn't stand the thought of actively voting for either)

user104658

25-01-2021, 07:52 PM

Back then he was just a "good ole boy" who was the last halfway decent Mayor of London, and generally an amusing buffoon. Covid wasn't a thing yet, so his levels of incompetence weren't yet widely known.

Also, he was against Jeremy Corbyn. When there are two bad options, voting for a party headed by either of them is hardly a ringing endorsement.

(For what it's worth, I spoiled my ballot. I wanted a hung parliament, I couldn't stand the thought of actively voting for either)

They'd vote for him again tomorrow.

Oliver_W

25-01-2021, 07:53 PM

They'd vote for him again tomorrow.

Not to be one of those people who says "show your sources" but ... What is your source ? :joker:

joeysteele

25-01-2021, 07:55 PM

joeysteele

25-01-2021, 07:56 PM

They'd vote for him again tomorrow.

.... and yes they would sadly.

user104658

25-01-2021, 07:56 PM

Not to be one of those people who says "show your sources" but ... What is your source ? :joker:

It's an opinion, the source is me :think:

Oliver_W

25-01-2021, 07:58 PM

It's an opinion, the source is me :think:

Okay fairsquare, I was thrown off by the lack words like "I think" ;)

Well, you're in the Scot"land" part of our country and I'm in the England bit, and I think he wouldn't get voted in again :hmph:

Marsh.

25-01-2021, 08:05 PM

When is it going to be England's turn to say whether we want Scotland to remain or not? Or are we going to go through this nonsense every year until Sturgeon gets the result she wants?

:rolleyes:

Cherie

25-01-2021, 09:19 PM

i think most scots watch Nicola and watch the mess down south with Hancock and work it out..

I honestly don't see how much better she has done? :shrug:

James

25-01-2021, 09:42 PM

It's almost impossible for a Scottish government to become unpopular because of the way the devolved powers were set up. The Scottish Parliament was given enough power so that it could look competent, but not enough that it could mess things up or do anything very controversial.

The previous Labour-led administration didn't get unpopular, it just lost power to the SNP because the UK Labour government at the time lost popularity.

Marsh.

25-01-2021, 09:42 PM

Well, you're in the Scot"land" part of our country and I'm in the England bit, and I think he wouldn't get voted in again :hmph:

Scotland is its own country, as is England. ;)

joeysteele

25-01-2021, 09:56 PM

Scotland is its own country, as is England. ;)

It is indeed.

Oliver_W

25-01-2021, 10:26 PM

Scotland is its own country, as is England. ;)

Nah, we're just one big happy country :dance:

arista

26-01-2021, 07:43 AM

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EspAt1dXIAAasIx?format=jpg&name=small

arista

26-01-2021, 07:48 AM

"Most Scots think Nicola is doing a great job,"

Sure LT,
but on Independence.
Not all Scottish want to be alone in the world.

joeysteele

26-01-2021, 08:11 AM

"Most Scots think Nicola is doing a great job,"

Sure LT,
but on Independence.
Not all Scottish want to be alone in the world.

Well not all UK citizens wanted to not stay part of the EU.
However 51.9 wanted to leave so we had to leave.

Are you now saying the lesser view should be considered as to Scottish independence..
No matter where the figures now are on independence, if polls are to be believed, it's now in excess of around 52%

I put no faith in polling, however one way to settle the issue again is to have a new vote on independence, following the brexit vote which has further alienated more Scots voters as to the Union of the UK.

You will never get everyone in a Country voting the same way.

It's an odd democracy you now portray though, that because ALL Scots don't want independence that should decide if there's another referendum.
That's actually a scary kind of democracy.

That because ALL DON'T want independence, then they SHOULDN'T get it, no matter how many DO want it .
So also should be dictated to only England's view too.

I think it sad were Scotland to leave the Union.
However myself loving the Country and of Scots ancestry on my Father's side.
If I had a vote, I'd vote for Independence there now.
Because the attitude of some parts of England and some of those who support this current awful Con party, plus in fact some ignorant Con backbenchers who show no respect to the Scots , or to who the Scots send to represent them in Westminster either.
Sheer ignorance.

That leaves me believing Scotland could be better independent, or at least no worse, I also actually believe strong support for Scotland would come from many other Nations around the World too.

arista

26-01-2021, 10:32 AM

"Are you now saying the lesser view should be
considered as to Scottish independence"

Now we are out of the EU
the UK must stay together.

Johnson PM will Never Give the SNP
their wish.

Niamh.

26-01-2021, 10:46 AM

Nah, we're just one big happy country :dance:

How come you all have different national soccer teams then hhhmmm?

Oliver_W

26-01-2021, 10:47 AM

How come you all have different national soccer teams then hhhmmm?

Because it's a girls' game, and we're being kind to those who can't partake in real sports like rugby :)

Niamh.

26-01-2021, 10:51 AM

Because it's a girls' game, and we're being kind to those who can't partake in real sports like rugby :)

First of all stop being so sexist and secondly Scotland, Wales & England all have their own Rugby teams too :suspect:

Oliver_W

26-01-2021, 10:56 AM

Scotland, Wales & England all have their own Rugby teams too :suspect:

For the real men :smug:

Niamh.

26-01-2021, 10:59 AM

For the real men :smug:

How does that answer the point I was making or back up the point you were making(whatever that was)? Both soccer and Rugby have their own national teams (Scotland, England & Wales) :suspect:

joeysteele

26-01-2021, 11:15 AM

"Are you now saying the lesser view should be
considered as to Scottish independence"

Now we are out of the EU
the UK must stay together.

Johnson PM will Never Give the SNP
their wish.

You keep saying Johnson will NEVER give the SNP their wish.
That would be constitutionally wrong , unacceptable and likely illegal too.

If the Scottish voters support the SNP even stronger in future elections, you really are advocating in this new post brexit democracy extreme brexiteers want.
That the majority and possibly majority of the people and the individual Nations of the UK.
Should be and can be totally dismissed and denied their wishes.

That's dictatorship, that the biggest Nation of the UK can in effect possibly bully the others by FORCING them to be part of something they'd vote not to.

Is this was meant by brexit taking democracy back.
However democracy as to England's style, for only England to dictate.

That is actually frightening..

The best way to try to ensure the UK stayed together would have been to have stayed in the EU actually.
Brexit only heaped more stronger burning fuel on the independence issue.
To the leave the UK side.

It's even heading towards the same possibly in Northern Ireland too.

user104658

26-01-2021, 11:35 AM

To be honest I do sometimes think it's a sad reality that Scottish independence may not be workable under the current circumstances - I don't think there's any feasible way to get the border to work until things have settled down between Westminster and the EU. Of course, I think that will happen at some point, functional trade between the UK and EU is beneficial to all involved, and I think a "special" agreement at the Scotland/England border is very possible too, but things are currently so up in the air that it would be a major issue.

If I'm 100% going with my gut, I think it's not ideal to break up the Union unless all involved are part of an EU-wide trading community of some sort again (certainly possible) or the EU hits the skids completely (...also kind of possible).

I'm still heavily pro-Autonomy for Scotland but CURRENTLY the best option for that, to me, is probably a devo-max arrangement where Scotland has full control over taxation and spending within Scotland, education, benefits, etc. (we do already have this partially and benefits are transitioning more, but I'd prefer it to be full). Essentially, "independence within the UK union", no direct Westminster control or laws, as really it should always have been.

Would work especially well within something like that CANZUK idea (which I don't think will actually happen) but basically, if it did, I think Scotland could (and should) operate as an independent entity within that, not as a "UK package deal".

But yeah. A hard border, I unfortunately don't think is workable in the 21st century... it's one of the reasons that the EU itself is so necessary on the continent. You might as well officially allow free movement - because how on earth would you stop it?

arista

26-01-2021, 01:02 PM

"unacceptable and likely illegal too."

No Joey
under a Pandemic
everything changes.

Johnson PM has every right
to say NO to the weak SNP.

arista

26-01-2021, 01:04 PM

"To be honest I do sometimes think it's a sad
reality that Scottish independence may
not be workable under the current circumstances"

Wise Words
from Top Poster
TS.

joeysteele

26-01-2021, 01:18 PM

"unacceptable and likely illegal too."

No Joey
under a Pandemic
everything changes.

Johnson PM has every right
to say NO to the weak SNP.

I'm really sorry but your attitude to the SNP is similar to the Cons in England,
Part of the reason the SNP is so currently strong in Scotland.

They are far from weak in Scotland.

Your attitude in line with Johnson's is only going to add to the support for them too.

She isn't even advocating holding a referendum until after the pandemic.
What excuse will be used once the virus is more controlled.

There's no need for hard borders either as TS is saying.
Other European Nations alongside and adjoining EU Nations don't have much in the way of hard borders
If negotiations are done correctly.
They shouldn't be necessary.

I stand by my statement, no PM can override democracy, and should'nt be allowed to.
If he keeps up the rhetoric he's spouting, then the SNP and the push to independence will only get stronger in Scotland.

Whether right, wrong, wise or worth going for independence, is and should be for the Scots voters to decide.
Not being dictated to by any UK PM of ANY party.

If you think that is going to unite Scotland more to the UK.
You're frankly sorry to say almost like being on another planet.

arista

26-01-2021, 01:20 PM

"She isn't even advocating holding a referendum until after the pandemic."

By then, She will be Gone

arista

26-01-2021, 01:21 PM

"I stand by my statement,"

Sure Joey
but under this Long Pandemic
you stand for nothing.

joeysteele

26-01-2021, 01:32 PM

"I stand by my statement,"

Sure Joey
but under this Long Pandemic
you stand for nothing.

If you're just going to debate ridiculously then I'm done sorry

I don't like one bit the post brexit democracy you seem to think should be in place.
Nor dictating to other Nations of the UK by England's main representation of the Con party.

Anyway,get on with it.
I'm not wasting my time to get insulted.

arista

26-01-2021, 01:53 PM

The Point is
under this Pandemic it will run for many years.
The UK Prime Minister can overrule everything.

Oliver_W

26-01-2021, 02:00 PM

"She isn't even advocating holding a referendum until after the pandemic."

By then, She will be Gone

That's rather optimistic :shrug:

joeysteele

26-01-2021, 02:01 PM

The Point is
under this Pandemic it will run for many years.
The UK Prime Minister can overrule everything.

No, he really can't and shouldn't be able to in a democracy either.

A fair few times in this pandemic he's the one whose followed Sturgeon's actions in Scotland on it anyhow.

Hopefully, because it's rather worrying thinking about the power you credit him with having.
Hopefully he only has up to 3+ years left, for sure he now hasn't 4.
He's elected to serve not dictate.
Well that was the pre brexit way, maybe not now however.

Anyway I think we've exhausted these interactions on this.

arista

26-01-2021, 02:09 PM

joeysteele

26-01-2021, 02:11 PM

[No, he really can't and shouldn't be able to in a democracy either.
A fair few times in this pandemic he's the one whose followed Sturgeon's actions in Scotland on it anyhow.]

Under a Pandemic
that Army is brought in to help, for example.

Democracy is within the London Parliament.

It's a Coincidence that Johnson does the same as the SNP leader.

Of course it would have to be a coincidence!!!
I think not myself however.
No way.

He more like hadn't a clue until she led the way.
I'd go more with that.

arista

26-01-2021, 02:12 PM

That's rather optimistic :shrug:

No, Covid-19
is not going away for many years.

It is still in China
just they keep much of real time data
hidden from our eyes.

arista

26-01-2021, 02:14 PM

Yes Joey
but under a Long Pandemic
Democracy that you enjoy
is no longer around.

joeysteele

26-01-2021, 02:29 PM

Yes Joey
but under a Long Pandemic
Democracy that you enjoy
is no longer around.

Then we no longer actually have a democracy then.
If we all just have to be dictated to by the Con party and it's current PM.

Wow, that's frightening.

arista

26-01-2021, 02:41 PM

Then we no longer actually have a democracy then.
If we all just have to be dictated to by the Con party and it's current PM.

Wow, that's frightening.

Yes so is this Pandemic Covid-19

joeysteele

26-01-2021, 03:43 PM

Yes so is this Pandemic Covid-19

You don't need to tell me that.

James

26-01-2021, 03:51 PM

I just don't get this wanting to treat the UK like early-90s Yugoslavia.

arista

26-01-2021, 04:08 PM

I just don't get this wanting to treat the UK like early-90s Yugoslavia.

Yes that is Fair Comment
James.

But the World Pandemic,
is changing the whole world.
Vaccines "could" be out of date
soon.

As Variants will increase.
It takes some months to work out how
to stop them.
And because of this Medical Emergency
No 2nd Vote for the SNP.

user104658

26-01-2021, 04:19 PM

I just don't get this wanting to treat the UK like early-90s Yugoslavia.

I guess if all else fails, there's always gross hyperbole :joker:

James

26-01-2021, 07:37 PM

I guess if all else fails, there's always gross hyperbole :joker:

Is it? :shrug:

user104658

27-01-2021, 09:05 AM

Is it? :shrug:

Comparing a democratic vote on Scottish independence to a series of largely race-related insurgencies and conflicts that broke up a "country" that was cobbled together under Soviet supervision in the early 1900's

Is it an example of "gross hyperbole"?

...yes.

James

27-01-2021, 11:39 AM

Comparing a democratic vote on Scottish independence to a series of largely race-related insurgencies and conflicts that broke up a "country" that was cobbled together under Soviet supervision in the early 1900's

Is it an example of "gross hyperbole"?

...yes.

What is being proposed here (independence) is pretty much unprecedented in the modern world.

The only countries that have been broken apart are, as you said, ex-communist countries that were held together artificially by dictatorships. That why I compared it to Yugoslavia.

I mean do people think it would be a good thing if Quebec broke away from Canada, or Catalonia became independent from Spain?

user104658

27-01-2021, 12:22 PM

I mean do people think it would be a good thing if Quebec broke away from Canada, or Catalonia became independent from Spain?

You do realise that there is a huge independence movement in Catalonia that has FAR greater support than Scottish Independence... and was violently suppressed by the Guardia Civil when they tried to vote on it? There have also been referendums on Quebec independence that have been very close to 50/50. So the answer to your question is clearly... yes, there are many people who think that both Catalonia and Quebec independence would be a good thing. It is, however, not in the interests of the larger state to give up control of its constituent parts. A big reason for that being that if it is shown that it can work, it could have a cascading effect on other areas.

There's a reason Spain is firmly against Scottish independence, even though it has nothing to do with Spain... that reason is that there are independence movement in a NUMBER of Spanish regions. There is a reason that the EU and EU member states have a vested interest in things not working out well for Britain post-Brexit. There is a reason that China wants Hong Kong firmly under the thumb. There is a reason that most nations won't even allow a vote to take place. Entities that hold power don't want to diminish it.

That's why it's unprecedented. Not because "it's a bad idea". How would we know?

Think of it as a reverse hypothesis I suppose; Imagine if New Zealand (a country with a similar population to Scotland) was not an independent country, but rather was a small constituent nation of "Great Australasia". Do you think Australia would happily sign off on NZ independence? Do you think everyone would be convinced that it could work? Wouldn't a lot of people assume it would be a disaster?

And yet, they are a small independent nation, and they thrive. Do you think there's a push in NZ to give up that independence and become a vassal state of Australia? Does anyone at all think that would improve their standing in the world, or their quality of life?

user104658

27-01-2021, 12:26 PM

And honestly, I don't think it should be under-stated that the biggest hurdles to successful Scottish independence are the social and economic problems catalyzed by Westminster Conservative governments. How anyone can think that "more Tory rule!" can ever be a solution to those problems is beyond me.

user104658

27-01-2021, 12:33 PM

Again to clarify my current stance, I think at this current point in global politics, devo-max is probably enough. Economic union, fine. Free movement, close cooperation, fine. I'd even say that a combined armed forces isn't too much of a stretch. But when it comes to direct governance, the cord to Westminster needs to be cut, because Westminster will simply never fully understand Scottish people nor be able to solve Scottish issues. I've lived extensively in both Scotland and England, the countries ARE different in several distinct ways. We have cultures in common, as all of the English-speaking world does, but the overall picture screams of a necessity for fully devolved government. The British Empire is gone and the union, if there is going to continue to be one, needs to change to reflect that.

James

27-01-2021, 01:00 PM

You do realise that there is a huge independence movement in Catalonia that has FAR greater support than Scottish Independence... and was violently suppressed by the Guardia Civil when they tried to vote on it? There have also been referendums on Quebec independence that have been very close to 50/50. So the answer to your question is clearly... yes, there are many people who think that both Catalonia and Quebec independence would be a good thing. It is, however, not in the interests of the larger state to give up control of its constituent parts. A big reason for that being that if it is shown that it can work, it could have a cascading effect on other areas.

There's a reason Spain is firmly against Scottish independence, even though it has nothing to do with Spain... that reason is that there are independence movement in a NUMBER of Spanish regions. There is a reason that the EU and EU member states have a vested interest in things not working out well for Britain post-Brexit. There is a reason that China wants Hong Kong firmly under the thumb. There is a reason that most nations won't even allow a vote to take place. Entities that hold power don't want to diminish it.

That's why it's unprecedented. Not because "it's a bad idea". How would we know?

Think of it as a reverse hypothesis I suppose; Imagine if New Zealand (a country with a similar population to Scotland) was not an independent country, but rather was a small constituent nation of "Great Australasia". Do you think Australia would happily sign off on NZ independence? Do you think everyone would be convinced that it could work? Wouldn't a lot of people assume it would be a disaster?

And yet, they are a small independent nation, and they thrive. Do you think there's a push in NZ to give up that independence and become a vassal state of Australia? Does anyone at all think that would improve their standing in the world, or their quality of life?

New Zealand has never been part of Australia though, so Australian has never been part of the NZ national identity; whereas Scotland has been part of the UK for 300+ years, and has always been geographically part of Great Britain and had a British identity.

Niamh.

27-01-2021, 01:41 PM

New Zealand has never been part of Australia though, so Australian has never been part of the NZ national identity; whereas Scotland has been part of the UK for 300+ years, and has always been geographically part of Great Britain and had a British identity.Ireland could be considered a more recent example maybe? 1922 we became a free state and 1949 i think a Republic

user104658

27-01-2021, 02:33 PM

New Zealand has never been part of Australia though, so Australian has never been part of the NZ national identity; whereas Scotland has been part of the UK for 300+ years, and has always been geographically part of Great Britain and had a British identity.

This has nothing to do with arguments over whether or not it's socially preferable or economically feasible - which should be the ONLY two concerns; it's just baseless sentimentality "for stuff that's been around ages".

My point was that if NZ was part of a greater Australia, and wanted to separate, the same arguments about it not being a good idea / not being viable, "needing" the larger country for stability, etc. would undoubtedly be made...

...the fact that it exists very comfortably as an individual country and would have no desire to "join a bigger one" proves that those arguments are not necessarily true.