Trump Not As Black And White As The Media Suggests?

[kirklancaster]

Miley Cyrus

Trump said:

"...And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything."

"Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

Miley said:

“Maybe it’s because of the villainous vibes that surround power and the poor examples of how too many leaders abuse it. Yes, that’s for Donald Trump.”

Disgusting! Good old Miley.

The very IDEA that some avaricious, fame-desperate women without morals will FREELY allow perverts to grope them and grab their pussies and breasts and private parts. It's 'sexual assault' whether those women were complicit or not.

OOPS Miley:

FOOTAGE HAS EMERGED OF MILEY CYRUS ALLOWING FANS TO GROPE HER PUSSY AND BREASTS DURING HER PERFORMANCE ON STAGE IN HER 2014 WRECKING BALL TOUR.

The singer was performing onstage during her Wrecking Ball tour in 2014 wearing a figure hugging silver thong leotard which gave her fans a very intimate view.

She allowed fans to grope her while she performed onstage before she struts off and performs the rest of her song.

NEXT WITNESS!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/miley1.jpg?w=960

[Kizzy]

He was wrong, what he said was wrong, it's not only Miley Cyrus a woman you appear to infer has no right to comment due to a stage performance who thinks this....But millions across the free world, are you going to attempt to discredit them all?

[Ammi]

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

[kirklancaster]

He was wrong, what he said was wrong, it's not only Miley Cyrus a woman you appear to infer has no right to comment due to a stage performance who thinks this....But millions across the free world, are you going to attempt to discredit them all?

WHERE have I ever STATED that he was not wrong?

WHERE have I ever STATED that what he said was not wrong?

If you are going to continually CRITICALLY respond to my posts LEARN to READ - please.

Neither in this post nor in any others have I defended TRUMP, and I have made that clear enough in many related posts.

What I will not do though, is swallow the B.S bile which is ranged against Trump by those who purely HATE him, then regurgitate it across THIS or other forums - as some do - because it goes against my sense of justice and fair play.

I see a GREAT contradiction in your VIEWPOINTS in TRUMP BASHING and CORBYN BASHING.

I would gladly extend this same expose and condemnation of Corbyn's detractors if I could find any - after the GREATEST scrutiny - that WERE NOT JUSTIFIED.

Unfortunately, I cannot.

As to your question; 'am' I 'going to 'discredit them all' - NO - only the fake ones who are jumping on a bandwagon to win popularity, or, indeed those who have claimed 'historical sexual assault' against Trump who are PATENTLY lying.

Happy now that I have cleared this all up for you?

[Withano]

Donald Trump bragged about groping other women, Miley Cyrus danced at the end of the stage towards other people who already had their hands in the air and hopefully didnt intend on groping her. The whole thing lasted less than three seconds.

This is painfully incomparable. You could compare Donald to one of the people in the crowd If you really wanted to push an agenda.

There is no contradiction between a woman who doesnt like men groping unwilling women simply because she danced near people at a concert.

Its kinda of like me saying i dont like men who slap people and then you showing a video of a someone putting their hand on my face and calling it a contradiction

What a ****ing stupid thread. I know you keep saying you dont care for Trump, its difficult to believe you when you twisted a scene in to whatever this is though.

[Withano]

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

All of this.

[kirklancaster]

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

I am referring SPECIFICALLY to those women who ALLOWED Trump to grope them Ammi. If Cyrus ALLOWING her fans to grope her does not constitute 'sexual assault', then how does certain women who have ALLOWED Trump to grope them constitute 'sexual assault'?

I am also pointing out the hypocrisy of a powerful and wealthy celebrity who lambastes another powerful and wealthy celebrity for 'abusing their power' - groping of certain women inclusive - who then uses her power to ALLOW her private parts to be groped.

SHE had the POWER NOT to allow this very public groping. She chose not to, because, in my opinion - just like her very public 'twerking' and other unsavoury publicity-mindful stunts - they are keeping her in the limelight and keeping the dollars rolling in.

There is, therefore, a very real parallel here - in that certain women ALLOWED Trump to grope them in the hopes of fame and fortune ensuing, and Miley Cyrus allows fans to grope her because she knows that will prolong her notoriety and preserve her fame and fortune.

My post have NOTHING whatsoever to do with whether Trump is a sexual predator or misogynist or not - I have already stated that he is on other threads - but everything to do with fairness and justice, what is right and wrong - in my opinion.

And in my opinion, moral-less, money hungry, fame *****s such as Miley Cyrus, do not make credible witnesses on the questions of abuse of power or morality.

[kirklancaster]

Donald Trump bragged about groping other women, Miley Cyrus danced at the end of the stage towards other people who already had their hands in the air and hopefully didnt intend on groping her. The whole thing lasted less than three seconds.

This is painfully incomparable. You could compare Donald to one of the people in the crowd If you really wanted to push an agenda.

There is no contradiction between a woman who doesnt like men groping unwilling women simply because she danced near people at a concert.

Its kinda of like me saying i dont like men who slap people and then you showing a video of a someone putting their hand on my face and calling it a contradiction

What a ****ing stupid thread. I know you keep saying you dont care for Trump, its difficult to believe you when you twisted a scene in to whatever this is though.

You may regard it as a 'stupid thread, as may some others - because it does not dovetail neatly into your 'all or nothing' 'Black or White' distorted view of the world.

Some others on here may disagree with you.

Incidentally - how do you KNOW that Trump's alleged 'groping' did not also last 3 seconds or even less?

Your interpretation of that video is totally denialist if you think that 'people had their hands in the air and Miley's pussy merely came into accidental contact with them' if that is what you are trying to claim.

[Withano]

You may regard it as a 'stupid thread, as may some others - because it does not dovetail neatly into your 'all or nothing' 'Black or White' distorted view of the world.

Some others on here may disagree with you.

Right, but this really is nothing. You're disregarding a womans thought on sexual assault (disgusting by the way, not the point im making but still grim of you) simply because there is three seconds of footage of her dancing into a crowd of hands at her concert. This is the biggest piece of nothing i've ever read.

[Withano]

Incidentally - how do you KNOW that Trump's alleged 'groping' did not also last 3 seconds or even less?

Your interpretation of that video is totally denialist if you think that 'people had their hands in the air and Miley's pussy merely came into accidental contact with them' if that is what you are trying to claim.

Can you google sexual assault, learn what it is and notice the difference here.

And none of us have any evidence to show that the bottom paragraph isnt completely true.

That isnt even where the pussy is ffs but the screenshot is the closest anyone got to it.

[Ammi]

I am referring SPECIFICALLY to those women who ALLOWED Trump to grope them Ammi. If Cyrus ALLOWING her fans to grope her does not constitute 'sexual assault', then how does certain women who have ALLOWED Trump to grope them constitute 'sexual assault'?

I am also pointing out the hypocrisy of a powerful and wealthy celebrity who lambastes another powerful and wealthy celebrity for 'abusing their power' - groping of certain women inclusive - who then uses her power to ALLOW her private parts to be groped.

SHE had the POWER NOT to allow this very public groping. She chose not to, because, in my opinion - just like her very public 'twerking' and other unsavoury publicity-mindful stunts - they are keeping her in the limelight and keeping the dollars rolling in.

There is, therefore, a very real parallel here - in that certain women ALLOWED Trump to grope them in the hopes of fame and fortune ensuing, and Miley Cyrus allows fans to grope her because she knows that will prolong her notoriety and preserve her fame and fortune.

My post have NOTHING whatsoever to do with whether Trump is a sexual predator or misogynist or not - I have already stated that he is on other threads - but everything to do with fairness and justice, what is right and wrong - in my opinion.

And in my opinion, moral-less, money hungry, fame *****s such as Miley Cyrus, do not make credible witnesses on the questions of abuse of power or morality.

..I'm sorry Kirk but it does feel a little like your 'fair and justice' is being quite selective with this and this thread about Miley...from the beginning of Trump time, music artist have used 'sexual' in their live performances...Elvis Presley for instance with his pelvic moves, which were a big part of who he was as an artist as well...and Miley's moves have become part of her as an artist...sexual is a big part of the music as well with many artists and always has been since the good old rock n roll days...but you're using words like unsavoury and questioning that she has a moral compass to criticise Donald Trump who was saying that his practise with females was sexual basically...that doesn't seem being fair and just to me, it does seem very judgemental of her../her live act etc...which is fine as well if it's how you feel but do you not see...it's a bit of a selective fair and just....anyone who doesn't practice sexual assault or has ever done is a 'credible witness' and so far as I'm aware, Miley hasn't....she has every right to question 'morality'....

[Kizzy]

WHERE have I ever STATED that he was not wrong?

WHERE have I ever STATED that what he said was not wrong?

If you are going to continually CRITICALLY respond to my posts LEARN to READ - please.

Neither in this post nor in any others have I defended TRUMP, and I have made that clear enough in many related posts.

What I will not do though, is swallow the B.S bile which is ranged against Trump by those who purely HATE him, then regurgitate it across THIS or other forums - as some do - because it goes against my sense of justice and fair play.

I see a GREAT contradiction in your VIEWPOINTS in TRUMP BASHING and CORBYN BASHING.

I would gladly extend this same expose and condemnation of Corbyn's detractors if I could find any - after the GREATEST scrutiny - that WERE NOT JUSTIFIED.

Unfortunately, I cannot.

As to your question; 'am' I 'going to 'discredit them all' - NO - only the fake ones who are jumping on a bandwagon to win popularity, or, indeed those who have claimed 'historical sexual assault' against Trump who are PATENTLY lying.

Happy now that I have cleared this all up for you?

Has Corbyn been accused of pussy grabbing now?... :/

As you've started using language like 'moral-less fame ******' to describe those who disagree with his comments I'll leave it here.

[kirklancaster]

..I'm sorry Kirk but it does feel a little like your 'fair and justice' is being quite selective with this and this thread about Miley...from the beginning of Trump time, music artist have used 'sexual' in their live performances...Elvis Presley for instance with his pelvic moves, which were a big part of who he was as an artist as well...and Miley's moves have become part of her as an artist...sexual is a big part of the music as well with many artists and always has been since the good old rock n roll days...but you're using words like unsavoury and questioning that she has a moral compass to criticise Donald Trump who was saying that his practise with females was sexual basically...that doesn't seem being fair and just to me, it does seem very judgemental of her../her live act etc...which is fine as well if it's how you feel but do you not see...it's a bit of a selective fair and just....anyone who doesn't practice sexual assault or has ever done is a 'credible witness' and so far as I'm aware, Miley hasn't....she has every right to question 'morality'....

I am an Elvis fan Ammi, and I have never seen one report or any footage showing Elvis allowing any fan to grope his manhood - and to me, THAT is EXACTLY what Miley Cyrus is doing in this clip.

Miley Cyrus has a huge amount of influence among the young people of the world, and all I am saying is that - judging by her very public conduct - she is less than qualified to be commenting upon anyone else's morals, especially from motives of 'Jump On The Bandwagon' 'Popularity Courting' for personal gain, as I firmly believe that she is.

By the way, I neither like or dislike her as an artiste.

My grouse is squarely on the unfairness of 'Witch Hunts' for the wrong reasons or lies, because there is enough to 'Hang' Trump for without suchlike.

[kirklancaster]

Has Corbyn been accused of pussy grabbing now?... :/

As you've started using language like 'moral-less fame ******' to describe those who disagree with his comments I'll leave it here.

What ARE you talking about? Do you even KNOW yourself?

I have NEVER even alluded to this stupid remark.

[Withano]

Even in your eyes Miley let herself be groped for 3 seconds (that isnt what happened but for arguments sake, lets say it is). That is multitudes different to any person groping an unwilling person for three seconds (more likely, a lot longer than this, but for arguments sake).

That is the complete difference of consent and assault. Youve disregarded Mileys thoughts on assault because youve seen her give consent.

This thread is completely grim. Almost perpetuating rape culture and sounding like a meninist with an agenda.

"Mileys not allowed to dislike assault cos heres three secs of her fans with their hands on her body" get out.

[Ammi]

I am an Elvis fan Ammi, and I have never seen one report or any footage showing Elvis allowing any fan to grope his manhood - and to me, THAT is EXACTLY what Miley Cyrus is doing in this clip.

Miley Cyrus has a huge amount of influence among the young people of the world, and all I am saying is that - judging by her very public conduct - she is less than qualified to be commenting upon anyone else's morals, especially from motives of 'Jump On The Bandwagon' 'Popularity Courting' for personal gain, as I firmly believe that she is.

By the way, I neither like or dislike her as an artiste.

My grouse is squarely on the unfairness of 'Witch Hunts' for the wrong reasons or lies, because there is enough to 'Hang' Trump for without suchlike.



....it's still very much part of how sexual is interpreted in music live performances as well though Kirk...it doesn't have to directly equate to be something that through time (some and many artists) have and have had as part of their live acts but much like an actor when they play characters, it doesn't reflect anything about them morally...I know some Miley fans...( I actually only know a few Miley fans that I've spoken to before about her in the past...)...who love her/her music/her style/her performances etc but don't take any 'moral influence' in their lives from her whatsoever...no one is witch-hunting Donald Trump, Kirk...his reference to sexual assault being a code of his practice wasn't in the context of any type of character or performance or entertainment etc...it's his words, his character for saying those words and quite revealing of him as a person 'of power'...when he's going for the most powerful job in the world, this is all him...no one needs to witch hunt...

[kirklancaster]

Even in your eyes Miley let herself be groped for 3 seconds (that isnt what happened but for arguments sake, lets say it is). That is multitudes different to any person groping an unwilling person for three seconds (more likely, a lot longer than this, but for arguments sake).

That is the complete difference of consent and assault. Youve disregarded Mileys thoughts on assault because youve seen her give consent.

This thread is completely grim. Almost perpetuating rape culture and sounding like a meninist with an agenda.

"Mileys not allowed to dislike assault cos heres three secs of her fans with their hands on her body" get out.

I am grossly offended by your uncalled for allegations that this thread perpetuates 'rape culture' AND your allusions that I am some 'menalist with an agenda' because there is NOTHING which I have written that would justify such disgusting comments.

You see Withano - your posts seem full of anger, perhaps because you detest Trump with a vengeance, but with blind hatred, objectivity is all too often lost.

You are NOT really addressing the points which I am ACTUALLY making in my posts, but more rather addressing what you THINK I am saying in my posts, and I believe that is because you have lost emotional detachment because of the subject matter.

You need to calm down, read and absorb what I am saying, and not allow your own prejudices to superimpose what you angrily feel I am saying onto my actual words.

I have NEVER posted to court popularity, only posted what I believe, and I have all too often been unfairly 'hung, drawn, and quartered' on here as a result.

But I am a great believer in ALL aspects of Freedom - Freedom Of Speech AND Freedom of Choice being two very important types.

I have the Freedom of Speech to open a thread on any subject I want to, and you have The Freedom of Choice NOT to subscribe to it.

I suggest Withano, if this thread upsets you so much, and you deem it so "fecking stupid" and "grim", then do not subscribe to it.

[Ammi]

...last post..(I think..:laugh:...)...Miley has every right to make comment in as much as any of us do or any other celebrity does...as Robert De Niro, Tom Hanks, Arnold Schwarzenegger or anyone else who have been offended and worried by what he said....we don't know anyone's moral compass more than anyone else's and a stage act/a persona is no indication at all...it's simply that/a stage act..and it's invited of anything it involves...Donald Trump showed no respect, no consideration for females in what he said...he inferred an abuse of power that he saw as a 'perk'....he hasn't denied that, those are his words and how he said those words....how he's excused that offence and disregard of females he showed though...?....by offending males as well in inferring it was just typical 'male locker room talk'....he offends my granddad, my father, my brothers, my husband, my sons and I would think that Withano's offence and stance on this is because he offends him as well...and that was his 'excuse' to make it all seem less worrying....that we're to be assured and feel fine because many males find sexual assault a source of amusement while having their 'mentalk'....as Tom Hanks said, he offends everyone whether male or female and that's all he could think of to 'excuse/explain'...

[Ammi]

..I was going to edited that just to say that Miley is a young American voting female and that's all she is in her entitlement to her views on Trump's morality...nothing else is relevant...anyways I didn't do the edit because I just had a little mini power cut and lost connection...darn you Kizzy, you're a witch...:laugh:..

[Tom4784]

The difference between Miley Cyrus' tours and Trump's victims are consent.I pity anyone who can't tell the difference between these two cases or think that Miley's antics on tour somehow diminishes her opinion.

[kirklancaster]

...last post..(I think..:laugh:...)...Miley has every right to make comment in as much as any of us do or any other celebrity does...as Robert De Niro, Tom Hanks, Arnold Schwarzenegger or anyone else who have been offended and worried by what he said....we don't know anyone's moral compass more than anyone else's and a stage act/a persona is no indication at all...it's simply that/a stage act..and it's invited of anything it involves...Donald Trump showed no respect, no consideration for females in what he said...he inferred an abuse of power that he saw as a 'perk'....he hasn't denied that, those are his words and how he said those words....how he's excused that offence and disregard of females he showed though...?....by offending males as well in inferring it was just typical 'male locker room talk'....he offends my granddad, my father, my brothers, my husband, my sons and I would think that Withano's offence and stance on this is because he offends him as well...and that was his 'excuse' to make it all seem less worrying....that we're to be assured and feel fine because many males find sexual assault a source of amusement while having their 'mentalk'....as Tom Hanks said, he offends everyone whether male or female and that's all he could think of to 'excuse/explain'...

Two things Ammi - I do not disagree with any of which you write about Trump. My post was not debating the rights and wrongs of Trump being any of those things, my post is about the credibility and motives of just SOME of those who are jumping onto the 'anti-Trump' bandwagon.

Secondly, I respect your opinion on Miley Cyrus, but I can never agree with it.

Her 'twerking' and a lot of her other calculated displays and comments, have been executed OUTSIDE of any stage performance, but always well publicised because of the notoriety value, and I cannot recall any other celebrity who has spoken out about Trump ever having indulged in similar 'self-promotional' morally questionable behaviour.

I firmly believe that, unlike De Niro, Tom Hanks et al, Cyrus is cynically seizing yet another opportunity to 'jump on a bandwagon' for her own gain - making herself more popular to raise her 'Marquee Value' for example.

Incidentally, being an 'offended male' does not mitigate or excuse Withano's offensive comments in respect of myself.

[kirklancaster]

The difference between Miley Cyrus' tours and Trump's victims are consent.I pity anyone who can't tell the difference between these two cases or think that Miley's antics on tour somehow diminishes her opinion.

Consent? How many times do I have to state in the Queen's English, that I am referring SPECIFICALLY and ONLY, to those women who ALLOWED Trump to grope them?

There is no need to pity me then, because I CAN most certainly tell the difference between those two cases - AND, just as importantly, I can see a parallel between those two cases.

Finally, I do not base my opinion solely upon just 'Miley's antics on tour' but also on her other well publicised antics off tour.

And yes - based upon what I BELIEVE and what I have a RIGHT to believe, I do think Miley's 'antics' diminishes her opinion and her credibility, besides giving me cause to question her motives - which WAS really the point of my post.

[Kizzy]

..I was going to edited that just to say that Miley is a young American voting female and that's all she is in her entitlement to her views on Trump's morality...nothing else is relevant...anyways I didn't do the edit because I just had a little mini power cut and lost connection...darn you Kizzy, you're a witch...:laugh:..

http://24.media.tumblr.com/6c3173510a73aa9e580310e11bec656e/tumblr_mmomtl2WrL1qcbk34o3_r1_250.gif

[Tom4784]

Consent? How many times do I have to state in the Queen's English, that I am referring SPECIFICALLY and ONLY, to those women who ALLOWED Trump to grope them?

There is no need to pity me then, because I CAN most certainly tell the difference between those two cases - AND, just as importantly, I can see a parallel between those two cases.

Finally, I do not base my opinion solely upon just 'Miley's antics on tour' but also on her other well publicised antics off tour.

And yes - based upon what I BELIEVE and what I have a RIGHT to believe, I do think Miley's 'antics' diminishes her opinion and her credibility, besides giving me cause to question her motives - which WAS really the point of my post.

Calm down Kirk, no reason to get irate.

Most of your post is (not so subtly) suggesting that Trump's victims are fame hungry and complicit in his actions, in the words of LT, where's your proof of this? It sounds like victim blaming to me.

Your thoughts on Miley are problematic. Is the opinion of any woman that dares to embrace their own sexuality somehow less valid because of it? Does this extend to men too or is it just women?

Her antics do not make her opinion less valid as the quote you used was as follows.

'“Maybe it’s because of the villainous vibes that surround power and the poor examples of how too many leaders abuse it. Yes, that’s for Donald Trump.”'

She's talking about people in power abusing their positions so how does the fact that she CONSENTED to people touching her two years ago discredit that opinion? It doesn't make much sense at all.

The victims of Donald Trump didn't consent to his alleged abuse so how is Miley speaking out about it in anyway hypocritical just because she embraces her own sexuality? It's just downright silly.

[Ammi]

Two things Ammi - I do not disagree with any of which you write about Trump. My post was not debating the rights and wrongs of Trump being any of those things, my post is about the credibility and motives of just SOME of those who are jumping onto the 'anti-Trump' bandwagon.

Secondly, I respect your opinion on Miley Cyrus, but I can never agree with it.

Her 'twerking' and a lot of her other calculated displays and comments, have been executed OUTSIDE of any stage performance, but always well publicised because of the notoriety value, and I cannot recall any other celebrity who has spoken out about Trump ever having indulged in similar 'self-promotional' morally questionable behaviour.

I firmly believe that, unlike De Niro, Tom Hanks et al, Cyrus is cynically seizing yet another opportunity to 'jump on a bandwagon' for her own gain - making herself more popular to raise her 'Marquee Value' for example.

Incidentally, being an 'offended male' does not mitigate or excuse Withano's offensive comments in respect of myself.


...I guess that I just don't find sexual in music performances as anything that would question a moral compass off the stage...she may have had controversy in other areas of her life I know but she's very young and tried to find her own adult identity apart from her dad...but I would still feel that wouldn't be a question on her morals, but more had some confusing times in life...if she was jumping on a bandwagon, she's only able to do so because Trump has enabled her to by what he said...:laugh:..he made the bandwagon for her to be able to jump on and anyone else who may feel the need for a wagon ride...I think the thought process as well could be that if those with 'lesser moral compasses' find Trump offensive ..that's really just how offensive and worrying he is../his conversation was...even Miley was offended for goodness sake..:laugh:...

[bots]

I don't take notice of Miley unless it is for her acting or singing, at which point I judge her on her particular performance. Similarly, I wouldn't be interested in what a weather man had to say on the economy. One persons opinion or thoughts on a subject are just that, nothing more, nothing less

[Withano]

I am grossly offended by your uncalled for allegations that this thread perpetuates 'rape culture' AND your allusions that I am some 'menalist with an agenda' because there is NOTHING which I have written that would justify such disgusting comments.

You see Withano - your posts seem full of anger, perhaps because you detest Trump with a vengeance, but with blind hatred, objectivity is all too often lost.

You are NOT really addressing the points which I am ACTUALLY making in my posts, but more rather addressing what you THINK I am saying in my posts, and I believe that is because you have lost emotional detachment because of the subject matter.

You need to calm down, read and absorb what I am saying, and not allow your own prejudices to superimpose what you angrily feel I am saying onto my actual words.

I have NEVER posted to court popularity, only posted what I believe, and I have all too often been unfairly 'hung, drawn, and quartered' on here as a result.

But I am a great believer in ALL aspects of Freedom - Freedom Of Speech AND Freedom of Choice being two very important types.

I have the Freedom of Speech to open a thread on any subject I want to, and you have The Freedom of Choice NOT to subscribe to it.

I suggest Withano, if this thread upsets you so much, and you deem it so "fecking stupid" and "grim", then do not subscribe to it.

As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)

[Jessica.]

I'm really disappointed in you, Kirk.

[kirklancaster]

As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)

This 'grim little thread' seems to have a great attraction for you though doesn't it? What is this, your 6th post on here?

I do not worry about how many members 'take issue' with what I write - that is their prerogative on a forum, and I have already stated that I do not falsely post B.S. to be popular, only what I BELIEVE to be true.

Perhaps others who may AGREE with my view dare not post for fear of losing 'friends' and becoming 'unpopular'?

It DOES happen quite regularly on here.

I REALLY could not give a toss about Donald Trump per se but I DO care about the unfairness and injustice in that big old real world, and I will post whenever I see deliberate and unfair forces at work in the US Presidential race - just the same as I have always done on other threads.

I saw an internet article last week about Yoko Ono supposedly owning up to having an affair with Hilary Clinton, but I did a little research and concluded that the article was politically motivated B.S to discredit Clinton.

I was about to post on that, but some other member beat me to it.

You think what you want, but stop getting so personal with me.

Oh, and better cut out of this 'grim' thread now before I continue posting on what I believe is more unfair politically motivated B.S. allegations against Trump.

[kirklancaster]

I'm really disappointed in you, Kirk.

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.

[Jessica.]

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.

A person like that deserves every bit of backlash and truthful public allegation against him. If you can't see any reason for that then you're a lost cause. :shrug:

[Maru]

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?

The very IDEA that some avaricious, fame-desperate women without morals will FREELY allow perverts to grope them and grab their pussies and breasts and private parts. It's 'sexual assault' whether those women were complicit or not.

If it's just this point, then I don't really agree. It's consensual contact akin to an exotic dancer imo.

[Mokka]

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it :idc:

[Maru]

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it :idc:

If this thread were about Madonna grabbing her fans tops on-stage and exposing bare breasts, we might have a topic, but I think in this case Miley Cyrus is pretty much as-advertised so no wrong no foul...

[kirklancaster]

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?



If it's just this point, then I don't really agree. It's consensual contact akin to an exotic dancer imo.

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

[kirklancaster]

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it :idc:

I did not expect this from you Mokka, and nowhere in any thread ever, have I posted anything to warrant anyone posting such a comment.

[Jessica.]

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

So if you are not making any points for or against anyone, why did you make this thread? You clearly have some kind of bias against people who disagree with that disgusting man, so please make a point if you are so bothered by everyone making assumptions.

[Mokka]

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

The premise Kirk....that there is any correlation between Miley's on stage dance routine.... and women who are coming forward to accuse Donald Trump of sexual assault.
Miley is a singer songwriter....not a presidential candidate. No one wants to see her running the country either.

[Maru]

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

Aside from what I specifically quoted, I'm not sure what the point/where the comparison being made is. Are there alleged Trump victims who have come out to say that they consented to being touched? Were there even stories to suggest this may have been the case? (if even for part of the incident)

I'm totally on board with the idea that there are women in the professional world who send mixed signals (engage in idle flirtation) with male admirers in order to move up the chain... happens everyday, but I don't know where Miley Cyrus falls in that category. She is performing on-stage with thousands of people (and witnesses). She can't come back later and go "Well I didn't really want to be groped and actually, I didn't enjoy it either!"

[Ammi]

...(in fairness to Kirk..)...I actually think that I can see where you're coming from with this, Kirk...that if Miley would use sexual assault against females and what Trump said then where is her moral compass because she's just 'feeding' the same thing as Trump is and trivialising sexual assault...(which is what you believe that it was said to further a career and for personal attention..)...I just think it's a little off base to equate...Trumps whole position now is capitalising on his own celebrity and his own self gain in his controversy his celebrity has given him...I don't think for one moment that he would be where he is now and a strong contender for Presidency had he been guy on the street and unknown anti establishment....but he's fed so many negatives and prejudices, nurtured them and encouraged them for his own gain and his own power in that gain...




As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)



..I don't agree Withano..(sadly..)..I don't think that the prejudice and negative feelings through exploiting fears in people can just subside like that, it's not really how I see it works anyway....once surfaced, these things can't be controlled and don't just disappear...that's the difference with Trump...win or lose, he's left a legacy of intolerance and prejudice that won't just go with him (I fear..)...whereas if Hilary loses, then no more establishment ... for another 4 years anyway...the establishment legacy that she represents will diminish for at least a short term...his is far more far reaching in what's evoked in some through their fears and frustrations....

[bots]

..I don't agree Withano..(sadly..)..I don't think that the prejudice and negative feelings through exploiting fears in people can just subside like that, it's not really how I see it works anyway....once surfaced, these things can't be controlled and don't just disappear...that's the difference with Trump...win or lose, he's left a legacy of intolerance and prejudice that won't just go with him (I fear..)...whereas if Hilary loses, then no more establishment ... for another 4 years anyway...the establishment legacy that she represents will diminish for at least a short term...his is far more far reaching in what's evoked in some through their fears and frustrations....

This I very much agree with. If Hilary wins this time round and the establishment don't learn their lesson, then its just storing up issues for the next election. As abhorrent as Trump is, it could be someone worse next time. The bottom line, ignore voters at your peril.

[GiRTh]

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.The campaign is no longer covert after Trump decided to mention Bill Clintons name and rape in he same sentence at the 2nd debate. What exactly did Trump expect after that? As for Lies and false allegation - where do we start with Trump? An interviewer recently said that during interviews with Trump they should stop the interview every 30 seconds and just say 'But Mr Trump you're lying' chances are he will be.

There is no comparison between these two scenarios.

[Maru]

...(in fairness to Kirk..)...I actually think that I can see where you're coming from with this, Kirk...that if Miley would use sexual assault against females and what Trump said then where is her moral compass because she's just 'feeding' the same thing as Trump is and trivialising sexual assault...(which is what you believe that it was said to further a career and for personal attention..)...I just think it's a little off base to equate...Trumps whole position no is capitalising on his on celebrity and his own self gain in his controversy his celebrity has given him...I don't think for one moment that he would be where he is now and a strong contender for Presidency had he been guy on the street and unknown anti establishment....but he's fed so many negatives and prejudices, nurtured them and encouraged them for his own gain and his own power in that gain...

Yeah, if there is a comparison to be made, it's between Miley and Trump. He fed into male stereotypes of male ego and popular chauvinistic attitudes and activities of the time to control those around him...

I don't approve of female celebrities grabbing onto other fans in a sexual manner--consensual or not--because as it were, a man grabbing onto a fan in that manner--consensual or not--would go over very poorly. I just don't think it sets a good example... I understand female empowerment and all that crap, but it's not right to hold a man to an elevated standard of decency and yet a woman is not held to the same standard... that's not equality.

[Maru]

The premise Kirk....that there is any correlation between Miley's on stage dance routine.... and women who are coming forward to accuse Donald Trump of sexual assault.
Miley is a singer songwriter....not a presidential candidate. No one wants to see her running the country either.

This I very much agree with. If Hilary wins this time round and the establishment don't learn their lesson, then its just storing up issues for the next election. As abhorrent as Trump is, it could be someone worse next time. The bottom line, ignore voters at your peril.

D:

[Mokka]

What my issue with this thread is...
Here is some footage of Miley doing something judged as inappropriate ... no one talked to the people who's hands were in the air to find out if they felt violated or not... and she has not been outwardly accused of sexual assault by her fans.

But because we have this footage....it discredits her opinion on Trump. That is why I said it equates to in a court, her past sexual conduct discrediting her testimony....as happens to many women of sexual assault.
I adore you as a person Kirk... but you and I will never see eye to eye on Trump. I disagree with 99% of your views on him.... but I have never said you aren't entitled to your opinion... and I wouldn't look through the history of your life to find dirt on you to suggest you aren't entitled to any opinion at all.

[kirklancaster]

I will respond to each and every one of you but it will take time, and I might as well continue what I started because no doubt, when I've done, I will have other outraged responses to answer too.

But first, I wish to clear up a few misunderstandings about EXACTLY what it is I am saying, and I'll start with Miley Cyrus.

Miley Cyrus is - in my opinion - is a 'Publicity *****' who will do or say ANYTHING which generates publicity, keeps her in the limelight and keep her Marquee Value up and those all important dollars rolling in.

I claim, that the outrageous things which she has done thus far off stage and on - in word and deed - have been done to shock, create notoriety and generate publicity for the above reasons.

I also claim, that she is cynically jumping on a 'bandwagon' in her anti-Trump stance for her own reasons, which is to increase her popularity by ingratiating herself with anti-Trump members of the public who aren't particularly fans of hers either, and to generate more publicity which keeps those dollars rolling in.

I claim the above, because of my perception of Miley Cyrus based upon what I have seen and read about her.

If you are a big fan of hers, you may see her differently, but I am not alone in my perceptions of her.

Perhaps, we should take a look, and let anyone who is NOT familiar with her, to judge for themselves whether she is just a singer performing a stage routine or if she is a cynical publicity hound, whose condemnation of Trump is genuine, or for the more cynical reasons which I claim:


"Miley Cyrus is undoubtedly one of the most talked about celebrities in Hollywood at the moment. The former Disney star has been making headlines for her strange behavior for the past year and a half. It all started when Miley discovered ‘twerking’ and decided she needed to show the world that she could twerk, over and over again. After that, Miley continued to shock everyone with her strange behavior and crazy antics. Each new Miley headline has seemingly been stranger than the last, and just when the world thinks, Ms. Cyrus couldn’t possibly shock anyone again, she does.

Here are some of the strangest things Miley Cyrus has done."

The Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky “Performance”

http://therichest.imgix.net/2014/04/1a3.jpg?auto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=780&h=1168&fit=crop

In February 2014, Miley Cyrus did the unthinkable to open up her Bangerz tour in Vancouver. The twenty-one year old, after performing ‘Party In the USA’ simulated giving oral sex to a backup dancer dressed up like Bill Clinton. The Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky scandal occurred in 1998, when Cyrus was only six years old. It’s not clear what point she was trying to make, or who even came up with the disturbing idea, but one thing is for sure; it was strange.

The Constant Crotch Grabs

http://therichest.imgix.net/2014/04/1377884666_miley-cyrus-bangerz-zoom.jpg?auto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=780&h=985&fit=crop

Since the twenty-one year old kicked off her Bangerz tour on February 14th of this year, she has been photographed constantly grabbing her crotch. It appears the singer is trying to channel her ‘inner’ Michael Jackson and then some. The singer has also appeared to be masturbating during her performance of ‘Love, Party, Money.’ While sitting on the hood of a car, Cyrus rubbed her ‘hood’ – leaving the audience scratching their heads and wondering what exactly they were watching.

Her Wardrobe Choices

http://therichest.imgix.net/2014/04/1d3.jpg?auto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=780&h=780&fit=crop

To go along with her strange behavior, Miley has paired many peculiar outfits with it. For her 2013 VMA performance, she started out wearing a Chucky Cheese-like-mouse costume. Partway through the performance, she removed it to reveal a matching, latex, nude underwear and bra – which was quite unflattering. The singer also wore a see through white mesh dress with black pasties and black underwear during another performance. No matter what she chooses to wear, one can expect it to be skimpy and that it’ll barely cover anything. This is a bit surprising considering Miley once stated in an interview with ELLE magazine, “A star is someone who doesn’t have to take her clothes off to be sexy, because you naturally have star power.” So, according to Miley, Miley isn’t a star?

The Katy Perry Kiss

http://therichest.imgix.net/2014/04/cyrus-perry.jpg?auto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=780&h=542&fit=crop

In February 2014, when Miley was performing in Los Angeles, Katy Perry was sitting front row. Cyrus walked over to Katy and the two shared a kiss, that became very awkward, very fast. Perry seemingly went in for a peck, while Cyrus went in for much more, causing Katy to quickly pull away. While being interviewed on Australian TV about the kiss, Katy Perry explained how she was shocked when Miley offered up more than a peck, adding, “God knows where that tongue has been. We don’t know. That tongue is infamous!” Cyrus fired back at Katy via Twitter tweeting, “Girl if ur worried abt where tongues have been good thing ur ex boo is ur EX BOO cause we ALL know where THAT… been.” Ouch! The two continued to exchange insults and it doesn’t look like these girls are going to kiss and makeup anytime soon.

The Music Videos

http://therichest.imgix.net/2014/04/1f3.jpg?auto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=780&h=438&fit=crop

‘We Can’t Stop’ was the first of Miley’s string of strange music videos. It was released on June of 2013 and was jam packed with weird moments, including: Miley making out with a Barbie, Miley wearing a grill, Miley twerking and Miley spanking other females. It was hard to tell if the video was artistic or not. The singer’s ‘Wrecking Ball’ music video was released in September of 2013 and the world couldn’t really make sense of it. The video featured the singer sitting naked on a wrecking ball swinging back and forth. Apparently, she’s just being Miley.

4) The Consumption of Fan’s Underwear

http://therichest.imgix.net/2014/04/miley-cyrus-underwear.jpg?auto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=618&h=808&fit=crop
During her February 16th tour performance, a fan threw their thong up on stage, while Miley was singing. Instead of kicking it off stage or leaving it there, like any other person probably would have done. Miley did the inconceivable. She picked them up and put them in her mouth – Gross! It looks like Katy Perry got her answer on where Miley’s tongue has been.

The VMA Performance

http://therichest.imgix.net/2014/04/1i3.jpg?uto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=780&h=1002&fit=crop

When a person utters the words Miley Cyrus and VMA’s in the same sentence, everybody immediately thinks of her 2013 VMA performance with Robin Thicke. This performance was truly shocking and hard to watch. It was full of odd costumes, over the top sexual innuendo, a bizarre foam finger and twerking. Critics claim the young singer went beyond the realm of sexual suggestiveness and nearly entered the world of soft core porn. Miley made it perfectly clear that she cannot stop.

[CENTER]1) The Twerking

http://therichest.imgix.net/2014/04/Miley-Cyrus-Twerking-Santa.jpg?auto=format&q=40&lossless=1&w=780&h=780&fit=crop


Twerking, an aggressive booty shaking dance that peaked in popularity in 2013 due to Miley Cyrus embracing it completely. A home video of Miley twerking in a Unicorn onesie went viral in March of 2013 and after that, the pop singer twerked her way all over the world. Cyrus twerked in her music videos, at the VMA’s, on tour, at Juicy J’s concert and anywhere else she had the room to bend over. Many have criticized Miley’s obsession with twerking, making comments on her “assets” and her race. Jay Z even dissed Cyrus in his song ‘SomeWhereInAmerica,’ when he rapped, “…they see I’m still putting work in, ’cause somewhereinamerica, Miley Cyrus is still twerkin’, ha! Twerk, twerk, twerk, twerk, twerk, Miley, Miley, twerk, twerk, twerk, Miley, Miley, Miley, twerk. Twerk, yeah, ugh-huh. Twerk, Miley, Miley, Miley — Only in America.” Apparently, Jay Z has 99 problems and Miley Cyrus twerking is one.

Now staying with Miley for now, I will claim:

1) Donald Trump by word - and allegedly now by deed - degrades women.

2) Donald Trump by some of his words and actions, is a person with a very low and warped sense of morality.

3) Miley Cyrus by word and deed degrades women.

4) Miley Cyrus by some of her words and deeds, is a person with a very low and warped sense of morality.

Trump is alleged to have committed 'sexual assault' on women though no evidence has yet been brought forward to substantiate these allegations.

Miley Cyrus DEFINITELY sexually assaulted Katy Perry by inserting her tongue into her mouth and throat without prior consent.

Miley Cyrus did not 'casually wander' into a fan's upraised hand during the video in my OP, she was static and the fan stroked Cyrus's crotch. According to the article, Cyrus also allowed fans to touch her breasts.

This is not deemed sexual assault if it was consensual.

According to Trump - if this was not just empty bragging on his part in front of the sycophantic Billy Bush - he was in the habit of kissing women and groping their private parts without their consent.

If this was a regular habit of his over the best part of half a century, given that he is 70 years old, and up to now, only 7 or 8 women have emerged to complain, then it would follow - in my logical mind - that in the case of those women who did not complain then, and have not complained now, then one must assume that there must be an awful lot of women who allowed Trump to kiss or grope them, thereby consenting by default, even allowing for any that may still be too timid to come forward.

In the case of any women who allowed Trump to grope them, or did not object after the fact, then it was consensual, and we need only concern ourselves with those who have come forward to complain.

Something which I hope to cover in the next post.

I any event, I do see correlation in Trump and Cyrus, and I do maintain that - unlike De Niro, Tom Hanks and others - Cyrus is cynically exploiting the Trump situation for her own ends.

[Jamie89]

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more :laugh: but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

[Mokka]

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more :laugh: but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

Once again... Jamie articulates what I am thinking much better then I could. Thanks for that.

And... might I add... Kirk, you are making much more of a tweet from Miley than even her fans or people who actually follow her would. If you are saying that she has political pull over people based on her status as a celebrity... I will laugh for days. No one is taking her political views on as their own... at least no member of the voting US electorate... that actually plan on voting.

And I am actually becoming ashamed for this thread based on your last post Kirk, and will not be frequenting it again :(

[Shaun]

How embarrassing.

[Johnnyuk123]

From what i can see from reading Kirk's detailed post is this ....
Miley Cyrus is the last person to be jumping onto the we hate trump wagon. Why is she jumping on it? To get the media attention, a point which Kirk clearly made and a point that i completely agree with 100%. Should she be taken seriously? No she should not. Will many of her fans take her seriously, sadly yes many will. She has a responsibility to her young fans IMO. Is there a single parent on the face of this earth that would let their child leave the house dressed like miley cyrus? or twerk on the playground just like their pop idol that they so admire and aspire to be like? Hell no!
So for me miley (look at me me me i'm naked again) cyrus needs to shut up cover up and start showing some respect to those very impressionable young fans of hers first before targeting a 70yr old man to get some free airtime.

Great post Kirk!

[Pete.]

Miley ended Trump :love:

[kirklancaster]

If the thread is that Miley Cyrus is a publicity ***** then I couldn't agree more :laugh: but where that all ties in with Trump is where I get confused as to the premise of the thread as well if I'm being honest Kirk. Because I don't see why that or anything else she's said or done would invalidate her opinion of him. If it's that you don't believe her opinion because she seems like a disingenuous person, and so all of her opinions are to be discredited, then that's one thing, and I'm all for a mass ignoring of her... but if it's that it's only sexual assault that she can't give an opinion on, then that's what's confusing because why specifically that? Because yes she promotes sexual contact but all of the examples of her are things that are consensual/have been staged so I'm not sure where the comparison is? I know you've stated in the thread that you're specifically talking about women who invite sexual contact but then that's really confusing too because that's not the issue Miley was talking about, it was Trumps attitude towards touching women who haven't given consent.

I really do not think that I could explain what I mean any more clearly Jamie.

Yes, Cyrus is a publicity hound, and yes, I do not believe her comments on Trump have been made for any other reason than those which I have expounded - basically self-promotion and to ingratiate herself with the anti-Trump lobby for the same reason.

I also believe that Cyrus loses any credibility she may have had, when commenting on Trumps ALLEGED and as yet UNPROVEN sexual assaults by her own sexual assault on Katy Perry, and her other highly questionable behaviour.

[joeysteele]

...'she allowed' herself to be touched by her fans, she invited it if that's what she did in her Wrecking Ball tour...sexual assault is all about non-consensual intimate touching ...there is no comparison at all to 'I don't even wait, I just grab them..'..non whatsoever because it's all about inferring non-consent in what he said he practised with females because he was a star...there is just no explanation that would make that a right thing to say and not very worrying....

All of this too for me, he was bragging about doing it without any invite or consent at all from whoever may be his selected targets.
Massive difference, in my view anyway.

[Johnnyuk123]

I am also of the opinion that if this pop artist was a man parading around a stage in such a sexual manner in front of millions of young kids like she does all the time then the opinions of many would be very very different ones.

[kirklancaster]

All of this too for me, he was bragging about doing it without any invite or consent at all from whoever may be his selected targets.
Massive difference, in my view anyway.

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

[Johnnyuk123]

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

Remember what they did to Cliff Richard? Guilty as charged until proven innocent apparently... is this the new standard these days? :shrug:

[Tom4784]

Miley is allowed an opinion and desperate attempts of slut shaming her isn't going to make her opinion any less valid. Again, there's a difference between her consenting to being touched and speaking out against sexual abuse, the fact that you think the two are mutually exclusive is troubling to say the least. It's not exactly a bandwagon to hate Trump, everybody that isn't either a racist, bigoted in someway or supporting him as a joke as though he's a gimmick act in X Factor (or. as I suspect in your case, supporting him because your friends do judging from your sudden change of heart) is against Trump. There are no pros to the idea of him being president, only VAST amounts of cons.

[GiRTh]

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?Donald Trump's campaign plans to go 'buck wild' and paint Bill Clinton 'as Bill Cosby' (http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-bill-clinton-cosby-2016-10?r=US&IR=T)

I heard the same thing being said on media outlets just before the 2nd debate. It looks like Clinton team got there first and are just better at this kind of thing.

[joeysteele]

Why don't you expound on your view Joey - as a solicitor - I would be interested to know what you think to 'Trial by Media'? of someone who has yet to be charged with any of these alleged sexual assaults, and what you think to allegation without evidence?

Actually Kirk, and you should know this anyway from my anger at the treatment of Cliff Richard as to the media.

I hate trial by media and while you are right he has not been charged with anything, 'yet', and possibly may of course never be.
However we all heard he himself state in his own words that he has done this and acted this way, even towards married Women too, not that being married or single as any relevance
So by his own mouth he admits doing or showed intent on doing same.
As to evidence or lack of it, well he himself stated he did this,if he was being honest about that, little more as to more evidence other than victims coming forward are needed.

If he was only bragging to seem big and supposedly clever, then he has failed on both counts and only looks really disgusting for even publicly thinking that way and expressing same.
He also actually looks rather stupid too, if he was not being serious, again in my view.

The point still is, he claims to have done this without Womens consent or even knowledge,
A far cry from Miley Cyrus inviting it at a stage performance.

[Crimson Dynamo]

To think he actually grabbed a, woman by the pussy (as if you some how could) is as pathetic as the statement

[James]

Even if you think Miley Cyrus has double standards, that can't be used as a defence for Trump, because, ultimately Miley's (or any celebrity's) opinion is just one voice, and everyone can make up their own minds.

[Marsh.]

To think he actually grabbed a, woman by the pussy (as if you some how could) is as pathetic as the statement

Depends. Is said pussy fat with lots of baggy folds?

[kirklancaster]

I have genuinely been 'taken aback' by some of the hostile and very personal reaction on here just because I am honestly proffering a different view - something which is the very purpose of a forum surely?

Perhaps, I should merely start posting statements which I do not believe but which I know will be popular?

Sorry, I cannot do that.

Nothing is Black and White in this world, and I find it greatly ironic, that some of those who are the most vociferous in decrying the Media when the target may be Corbyn or an appeal to the Electorate to vote for Brexit, are the first to succumb without question to the Media when its target is Trump -- a man whom they detest anyway.

Well, sorry, I cannot help questioning.

So while some of my former friends on here are digesting what I have already written, or vomiting because of it, I will move on to the real reason why I started this thread - the witnesses proper, or Plaintiffs as it soon may be.

Summer Zervos

Zervos was on the fifth season of the The Apprentice in 2006.

She appeared at a press conference in Los Angeles on Friday the 14th of October 2016, with her Attorney - Gloria Allred - and alleged that during her time on the Apprentice (2006), Trump had lured her to his bungalow and sexually assaulted her:

"He put me in an embrace and I tried to push him away. I pushed his chest to put space between us and I said, 'Come on man, get real.' He repeated my words back to me, 'Get real,' as he began thrusting his genitals."

Well, that is version 1 which has been reported.

Here's version 2. :

In this reported version, Zervos claimed at the press conference that Donald Trump groped her during an employment meeting in 2007.

Ms Zervos claims that she contacted Mr Trump regarding an employment opportunity and was denied a meeting over lunch. She was then asked to meet him at his hotel in Beverly Hills.

She says that when she arrived, he kissed her on the lips and he said he’d love to work with her. He asked her to lie down on the bed and that he began “thrusting his genitals." She says that she made it clear that she was turning down his advances and he eventually began discussing business with her.

“As I was about to leave, he again kissed me on the lips,” Ms Zervos explained. “This made me feel nervous and embarrassed this is not what I wanted or expected.”

One year apart, different locations and one sexual assault committed by Trump whilst she was voluntarily lying on the bed which Trump had asked her to do.

A strange request and even stranger compliance given that it was a 'business meeting' which she had attended for, and that Trump had already kissed her on the lips without permission.

Also very strange how Zervos allowed herself to be maneuvered into the bedroom after already being kissed by Trump without consent, for one would presume that a man like Trump does not reside in one room bedsit type hotel accommodation.

It must be borne in mind that this was no timid country girl fresh into the big city, Zervos was already then, bright and relatively sophisticated.

Q: Would you go into a bedroom with Trump when you were supposed to be having a 'Business Meeting', and meekly lie down on the bed when asked, after he had kissed you on your mouth without consent?

But, anyway:

No sooner had Ms Zervos made her press conference allegations, her own cousin - issued a statement saying that he was 'shocked' by her claims:

John Barry - who is said to be 'close to her' said:

"I am completely shocked and bewildered by my cousin, Summer Zervos, and her press conference today. Ever since she was on The Apprentice she has had nothing but glowing things to say about Mr. Trump,” the statement reads.

Barry said that Zervos frequently described Trump as kind and an inspiration to her professionally, and that she “converted her friends and our family to become Trump supporters.”

“That was until Summer invited Mr. Trump to her restaurant during the primary and he said no. I think Summer wishes she could still be on reality TV, and in an effort to get that back she’s saying all of these negative things about Mr. Trump,” the statement continued.

“That’s not how she talked about him before. I can only imagine that Summer’s actions today are nothing more than an attempt to regain the spotlight at Mr. Trump’s expense, and I don’t think it reflects well.”

Further research shows that Zervos did indeed voluntarily contact Trump TWICE after the alleged assault, because the Trump campaign released an email from Zervos to Trump's secretary dated April 14, 2016, in which Zervos talks about her California restaurant and says she hopes to reconnect with the GOP nominee.

“Mr. Trump has a great deal of support in Huntington Beach, Ca!” she wrote. “He has witnessed both my highs and lows operating a small business and I am pleased to report business is good.”

She then added: “I would greatly appreciate reconnecting at this time. He will know my intentions are genuine.”

Q: Would you voluntarily seek another 'Business Meeting' with Trump after he had already sexually assaulted you several times during your first 'Business Meeting'?

Q: Would you word your email in such a way as that above?

After Trump IGNORED her first email, on the 21st April 2016 - just one week after her first email, and hardly allowing time for such a busy high flier as Trump to respond - Zervos then sent a further email with a request that it be delivered DIRECTLY to Trump.

She wrote:

"In that email, I stated, 'Your interest in me as a potential employee meant the world to me. Your interest in me as anything more blew my mind, and I lost my footing.' I further said, 'I have been incredibly hurt by our previous interaction.' I ended by stating, 'I hope to hear from you and wish you continued success.”

Trump NEVER replied.

'Blew My Mind' and 'Lost My Footing' are really curious expressions to use in an email appeal to a man who has repeatedly sexually assaulted you to describe the effects on you of the assaults - far more curious than, say, 'Shocked and upset me' and 'I was afraid and bewildered'.

In fact the phrase; 'Blew my mind' can mean 'to mentally disturb', but the more common usage today is to describe being 'overwhelmed with excitement or pleasure'.

Similarly, the phrase 'Lost my footing' is often used by authors in descriptive passages concerning love and obsession. Lolita author Vladimir Nabokov was fond of the phrase and used it in his 'Letters to Véra' in a passage about very obsessional love.

Q: Would you use such phrases to describe the effects on you of the sexual assaults he perpetrated against you?

Now, I am not Donald trump or Ms Zervos, and I do not know what really transpired between them, but I do know when something is not quite as it is being sold to us by the Media, and apart from the fact that NOWHERE does Ms Zernos seem to have complained about Trump Sexually Assaulting her until now — a few short weeks before the Presidential Election - is the fact that she voluntarily sent to Trump TWO emails virtually begging him for another 'Business Meeting' just a few short months ago.

I also doubt that because of the above, Ms Zervos cannot claim that she was timid and too afraid to say anything but was bolstered by the other women coming forward.

So shoot me if you want for questioning beyond the headlines as I ALWAYS do, but I'm sorry - something about this particular case does not sit right with me.

Here is Trump's denial:

http://16004-presscdn-0-50.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/trump-apprentice-accuser.jpg

Q: Based on the current state-of-information, do you feel that if Zervos litigates against Trump, that she stads a good chance of winning?

[kirklancaster]

Donald Trump's campaign plans to go 'buck wild' and paint Bill Clinton 'as Bill Cosby' (http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-bill-clinton-cosby-2016-10?r=US&IR=T)

I heard the same thing being said on media outlets just before the 2nd debate. It looks like Clinton team got there first and are just better at this kind of thing.

I totally agree - THAT is EXACTLY what I think has happened.

But this does not alter the facts, that this is NOT how Presidential Elections should be fought.

And I do not think that the allegations so suddenly being made against Trump by these women are as 'cut and dried' as the Media would have us believe.

[kirklancaster]

Actually Kirk, and you should know this anyway from my anger at the treatment of Cliff Richard as to the media.

I hate trial by media and while you are right he has not been charged with anything, 'yet', and possibly may of course never be.
However we all heard he himself state in his own words that he has done this and acted this way, even towards married Women too, not that being married or single as any relevance
So by his own mouth he admits doing or showed intent on doing same.
As to evidence or lack of it, well he himself stated he did this,if he was being honest about that, little more as to more evidence other than victims coming forward are needed.

If he was only bragging to seem big and supposedly clever, then he has failed on both counts and only looks really disgusting for even publicly thinking that way and expressing same.
He also actually looks rather stupid too, if he was not being serious, again in my view.

The point still is, he claims to have done this without Womens consent or even knowledge,
A far cry from Miley Cyrus inviting it at a stage performance.

I was not having a go at you Joey - your stance on the Cliff case was exactly as mine, which is why I asked you to expound on your differing view here.

I do not GENUINELY KNOW if Trump is guilty of being a sexual predator or not, but I just know when something is not right, and there is so much with this affair which does not sit right.

Thank you for responding and welcome back.

[GiRTh]

I totally agree - THAT is EXACTLY what I think has happened.

But this does not alter the facts, that this is NOT how Presidential Elections should be fought.

And I do not think that the allegations so suddenly being made against Trump by these women are as 'cut and dried' as the Media would have us believe.Agree this is not how the election should go but I dont think Clinton is the one who got us where we are. The comments made by Trump in the two debates and thru out the primaries he had nicknames for all his opponents lying Ted, Little Marco, Low Energy Jeb this went along way to winning the nomination. In debates Trump insults and zingers were the only lines any one could remember. Trump directly insulted Ted Cruzs wife and Carly Fiorino's appearance. Now we come to the general in his campaign team he has two of the greatest hatchet merchants in American media in Roger Ailes and Steve Bannon and they tried the same tactics of insults and innuendoes but they found the Clinton machine is better funded and better organized. I feel it is Trump who bought us to this all time low in the election.

[Withano]

Once again, I'd just like to echo what every single person in this thread bar 2 are saying and I'd also like to add that I dont really think youre thinking it through if youre saying Cyrus is more likely to be jumping on an 'i hate trump bandwagon' than Cyrus is just simply hating Trump. Like fair enough you like him, clearly.. but atleast acknowledge one of the many reasons there are to hate this guy. Its less of a bandwagon and more of a fact-train. A lot of people hate Trump, its perfectly plausible that Cyrus, Hanks or any other celeb who publicly announce this does too, its just idiotic to presume that theyre doing it to increase their likability.
Also struggling to understand your point.. I think its Cyrus isnt allowed to hate Trump cos shes a slag
And thats obviously odd.
With a side note of 'nothing is black or white apart from this view i have about miley, no arguing here'
Also odd.

I dont think you really have a point if you cant even explain it to others' understanding in about 2000 words or three pages on a forum. Its more of a cluster**** of weird musings.

[kirklancaster]

Even if you think Miley Cyrus has double standards, that can't be used as a defence for Trump, because, ultimately Miley's (or any celebrity's) opinion is just one voice, and everyone can make up their own minds.

Oh, I'm not using that as any 'Defence' of Trump James - merely trying to point out just how weak and useless Cyrus would be in a Court of Law for character assassination purposes if the prosecution had her take the stand against Trump.

The Defence Attorney would destroy her credibility AND assassinate her character.

Not that this would ever happen in a court, but the same applies to her being touted in the Media as some sort of 'credible' spokesperson - in my opinion.

Which - admittedly - is NOT a very popular one on here.

Then again, I was lambasted for claiming that Obama was a Muslim not a Christian as he claimed.

I was lambasted for claiming DIRECT personal knowledge of a mother on benefits with 12 children who was in receipt of over £700 per week benefits NOT including Housing Benefits.

I was lambasted for stating that Jihadists were being smuggled into Europe by ISIL.

etc etc.

But I was NOT wrong.

[bots]

I definitely think that the media train has been mobilised to attack Trump, I also think that celebrities have jumped on a bandwagon to attack him, when they really had no reason whatsoever to go public with their opinions.

Are they entitled to an opinion - of course, is Trump a class A despicable character - it sure looks that way, and it was that way long before the recent allegations surfaced.

The problem really is with such one sided bias, it is puzzling why there is a need for such vociferous venom. We all know Clinton is no angel, she has a very dodgy character too, so why isn't the media train active in both directions?

Personally, i would prefer them to stick to policies, because by the time either of them gets to the Whitehouse, its policy that counts, not their behaviour.

A bit like the in/out battle, it all comes down to lies, speculation and half truths being the focus and not the genuine issues.

[rusticgal]

It's all hearsay and wild accusations...nothing proven. Clintons a self conceited crook...Trump fires from the hip...I'm with the underdog...sick to death of conformity and the same old promises from fake politicians out for their own gain. Let's see REAL people take charge and maybe we will see change.

[kirklancaster]

Once again, I'd just like to echo what every single person in this thread bar 2 are saying and I'd also like to add that I dont really think youre thinking it through if youre saying Cyrus is more likely to be jumping on an 'i hate trump bandwagon' than Cyrus is just simply hating Trump. Like fair enough you like him, clearly.. but atleast acknowledge one of the many reasons there are to hate this guy. Its less of a bandwagon and more of a fact-train. A lot of people hate Trump, its perfectly plausible that Cyrus, Hanks or any other celeb who publicly announce this does too, its just idiotic to presume that theyre doing it to increase their likability.
Also struggling to understand your point.. I think its Cyrus isnt allowed to hate Trump cos shes a slag
And thats obviously odd.
With a side note of 'nothing is black or white apart from this view i have about miley, no arguing here'
Also odd.

I dont think you really have a point if you cant even explain it to others' understanding in about 2000 words or three pages on a forum. Its more of a cluster**** of weird musings.

Now you have resorted to misrepresenting me - I never said anywhere that Tom Hanks or De Niro or ANY other celebrity who has spoken out about Trump was doing it to increase their likeability.

Quite THE OPPOSITE.

I used De Niro and Tom Hanks as COMPARATORS for Cyrus. If you read what I wrote, ie - They are sincere in their denouncement of Trump.

I also never called Cyrus a 'slag' - that's your Freudian slip.

There is nothing wrong with my vocabulary or my writing ability, so I'm afraid that if anyone still cannot understand what I am saying - despite my very civil reiteration to assist - then that is THEIR problem, not mine.

Or would you have me write in fractured English?

It seems as though there is an attempt to 'bully' me, by sheer weight of opposing numbers, into stating what will suit them instead of what I believe, and now into 'dumbing down' my English, writing ability, and normal writing style, just to please others.

Sorry - No can do on either count

As for 3000 words or 3 pages - this is a very complex topic and one not capable of being addressed in a short little soundbyte or a few uncorroborated comments.

Wordy or not, it seems to have held your attention thus far.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine, but it is noted by me, that this is not the first and only thread where you have responded to my posts with - shall I say, extraordinary 'vigour'?

I just hope that I have helped put your mind at rest on some of the points you raise in your response.

[kirklancaster]

My sincere thanks to LT, Johnny, BOTS and RusticGal, because it has felt rather lonely on here.

Thank you for some balance.

[Tom4784]

It's all hearsay and wild accusations...nothing proven. Clintons a self conceited crook...Trump fires from the hip...I'm with the underdog...sick to death of conformity and the same old promises from fake politicians out for their own gain. Let's see REAL people take charge and maybe we will see change.

Supporting Donald Trump for president because he isn't a politician is like wanting an Hospital Porter to operate on you because they aren't a surgeon.

Trump is a moron that lies far more than any typical politician, in fact he's brazen about it. He'll outright deny things he's said even when confronted with evidence. Calling him a real person is a bit of a stretch given how much of a liar he is, the fact that he refuses to show his tax returns is likely because he is lying about his wealth too.

[Tom4784]

My sincere thanks to LT, Johnny, BOTS and RusticGal, because it has felt rather lonely on here.

Thank you for some balance.

People are allowed to disagree with you, I don't see you complaining about 'balance' when you're 'teaming up' with other members against Kizzy for example...

This is the debates section, Kirk. If you aren't willing to stand your ground and defend your point of view then it might not be the right section for you.

[Withano]

Nobody is trying to bully you. You cant call it bullying just because there are a large amount of people on the opposing side to you. Christ, people are just trying to decode your weird thread, which has caught my attention for all the wrong reasons - its genuinely completely insane. people dont only visit threads they completely agree with, discussions are usually formed by having 2 opposing opinions, you cant cry bully when people dont understand your obscure argument. Im not trying to dumb down what youve said, i genuinely have no idea what your argument is and assumed i was pretty close with my paraphrasing. Im certain its not actually a complex topic though. Its just you dismissing cyrus because of a three second video.

[the truth]

the usual pack mentality here isolating a solitary poster, some may call it cyber bullying

[Withano]

the usual pack mentality here isolating a solitary poster, some may call it cyber bullying

Or some will call it responding to a poster which responded to them in response to a weird thread they created for a public forum. Hmm either/or.

[kirklancaster]

Nobody is trying to bully you. You cant call it bullying just because there are a large amount of people on the opposing side to you. Christ, people are just trying to decode your weird thread, which has caught my attention for all the wrong reasons - its genuinely completely insane. people dont only visit threads they completely agree with, discussions are usually formed by having 2 opposing opinions, you cant cry bully when people dont understand your obscure argument. Im not trying to dumb down what youve said, i genuinely have no idea what your argument is and assumed i was pretty close with my paraphrasing. Im certain its not actually a complex topic though. Its just you dismissing cyrus because of a three second video.

If you have a genuine problem in understanding what I write, then I suggest that YOU have the problem in simple comprehension.

Your posts are beginning to appear like the written equivalent of a 'stuck record' and let me assure you that I don't cry 'bully' because I enjoy whupping bullies asses figuratively AND literally.

I said "it SEEMS like there is an ATTEMPT to bully me" NOT that I am BEING bullied.

'SEEMS like' is NOT the same as 'BEING'. 'ATTEMPT' is NOT the same as 'SUCCEEDING'

It SEEMS (there's that confusing word again) weird how I am a PAID author of several Short Stories and numerous articles for various organisations, and have just completed the first draft of a novel - the sample chapters which have just won me a quite prestigious Literary Agent - but yet I am to self-flagellate because YOU cannot understand what I am writing.

Goodnight.

[Maru]

I don't agree with the kirk on everything he writes, but I don't think that his opinion is irrelevant either as long as it is substantive enough to warrant discussion. It's the opposition after all that even makes it a debate.

Personally, many people share such an opinion with Kirk and I'd like to hear from him why as it expands my mind beyond my own established thought bubble...

Kirk, to be fair I had read through your OP a number of times and tried to get through the feedback and responses as well. I didn't really understand what your underlying argument even was.

All that said, I've read your responses and have some thoughts...

I'm surprised to see Miley Cyrus in the OP of anything pertaining to S&D. She's not exactly the first person that comes to mind when talking about moral code/moral decency... especially as it pertains to most celebrities who are active in the political scheme of things. (though Miley would feel her opinion matters, at least when it comes to feminism... which I'll cite later)

I'm assuming you were using her as prop/example, i.e. even the most hypocritical is trying to make money/gain followers by jumping on-board with the abuse allegations... i.e. the abuse allegations thing is an easy bandwagon for those who are selling records and CD's.... which means there is strong evidence of a conflict of interest.

Not sure I see Miley Cyrus is hypocrit #1, but I do see her as an example (read: warning) of what children should not grow up to become. :laugh:

In my POV, most celebrities are hardly impartial. These music/entertainment celebrities are not great examples as they more often than not are catering/mimic-ing their liberal-leaning base.

Trump should know, they've been playing the video of his glowing review of Hillary Clinton when she was running for senator in NY on CNN all day during the pre-debate coverage.

When Donald Trump Praised Hillary Clinton
http://time.com/3962799/donald-trump-hillary-clinton/

“I’m a businessman. I contribute to everybody,” Trump said. “When I needed Hillary, she was there. If I say ‘go to my wedding,’ they go to my wedding.”

Did he choose to be democrat because of his base, or was he just kissing up to some well-known "winners" at the time in order to gain/influence and appear 'relevant' to his base audience (at the time)?

In terms of judging Miley Cyrus as specifically,

1) We don't know how much of her entertainment persona is her true persona. This is the problem with any celebrity. For all we know, she is completely different than what she portrays on Twitter and in her shows (which is really a brand, not a person). She could be a total hypocrite in real life or far more educated in politics than we even dreamed possible. Though I agree with you, she intentionally pushes buttons as an entertainment for sure... though this is still far from being a sexual predator.

2) It's not surprising she would be anti-Trump. It's practically a sin to be a Trump supporter if your core base is skewed young and more of a liberal base.

That said,

3) Miley Cyrus at some point in her career started making connections between her new stage persona (post-Hannah Montana) and pro-feminism. This is literally her brand. Her endorsement should be of no surprise.

Why Miley Is The Queen Of White Feminism
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/why-miley-is-the-queen-of-white-feminism

4) While I don't think she's particular notable with regards to their political expertise, many young fans turn to these people for guidance not only for what is expected of them, but their earliest political opinions are shaped by these celebrities... many of these celebraties are expected to not be entirely selfish, i.e. use their status power and respective platform(s) to take political stances in the name of "good causes". That does mean something so she can't really advertise herself and her views to be something it really isn't. It could significantly hurt her image and hurt her relevancy. (see: Taylor Swift's crafted image and subsequent expose)

Anyway the debate is on, so I'll just leave this for now.

[jennyjuniper]

Having read all the posts on this thread, I understand where Kirk is coming from.
I think the real tragedy of the upcoming elections is that Trump and Clinton are the only two candidates.
Trump as a sexual predator (IF the stories about him are true and he wasn't just being a bit of an immature ass by bragging and proving how much power he has) Or Hilary Clinton, who is an enabler to a sexual predator (IF the stories about Bill Clinton are true)
Surely a country the size of America could come up with a man/woman who is worthy of the position as one of the most powerful leaders in the world, other than these two sorry specimens?

[Ammi]

...I wasn't going to make another post..:laugh:..but there is no attempt at bullying, cyber or otherwise and no pack mentality here at all, not even what could be slightly perceived as being so..let's not say don't cry these things or infer these things on things like BB and then cry and infer them also...this thread was made in the morning and only reached it's second page by early evening with a few posters being involved and all involved being appropriately contributory to the topic and discussion...then when others also contributed, it was because of different things like time-zone differences and work days ending..the thread is only into it's 4th page and being made many hours ago ..this was always a thread that was going to provoke comment../get attention...is that not the intent in making threads...and this was always going to provoke very definite stances and opinions as well because of its subject ..and in this cyber/forum world as with most other worlds, it was always going to be a bit of a 'lone voice' in its opinion as well...you did well though, Kirk..:love:...and tbh with you, I think that the opposite and some of the thoughts are quite gentle in their manner in respect of you and because it's you...




...anyway, whether it be for her own gain and attention or not, it doesn't really matter...Miley is a celebrity and the nature of celebrity is that it can gain attention from the media when it voices...to say she isn't qualified or that her words are ironic doesn't really equate either...she's a voting American with her opinion, which will lead to her vote and that's the only 'credential' she needs and the only credential which is relevant...it's all about democracy baby...every voter who votes are not asked about their lifestyle in doing so or their 'morals' questioned or scrutinised, it's not a requirement..they're not told, well that's rich considering what you do, are you having a laugh...so she voiced her opinion on someone who finds amusement in the self confessed practice of sexual assault...and as a celebrity that's reported as many others are...she also has a father so probably isn't equating to herself but would she want her dad to be a Trump.../I wouldn't think so...no one deserves a Trump in their life with his moral values..(imo of course..)...

[kirklancaster]

Thanks to Maru and Ammi and Jenny for your responses.

I am still watching those vids on the links supplied by you Maru, and will respond later.

[kirklancaster]

I would like to move on from Miley Cyrus now and would welcome - civil - thoughts on my post about Summer Zervos, one of the women who have come forward with sexual assault allegations against Trump.

[Johnnyuk123]

I have just read through this Kirk, and you are right, there is more to this accusation than meets the eye. Thank you for the detailed post on this woman's allegation.

[Ammi]

...tbh Kirk, I don't really personally have anything to contribute to that allegation by Summer...it's something that is very doubtful could be proven as they were the only two people present so the only ones who know the truth and it would be wrong to speculate on something so serious...otherwise it's just feeding trial by media and trial by the public etc...and those 'trials' that involve sexual assaults specifically that would be difficult to prove or also the trials of both people involved as sexual assault of any kind in the justice system is very much the character of the 'victim' as well....I only really have become much involved when words have been said with own mouths and self admissions etc.../those old undisputables....

[Crimson Dynamo]

Donald Trump bragged about groping other women, Miley Cyrus danced at the end of the stage towards other people who already had their hands in the air and hopefully didnt intend on groping her. The whole thing lasted less than three seconds.

This is painfully incomparable. You could compare Donald to one of the people in the crowd If you really wanted to push an agenda.

There is no contradiction between a woman who doesnt like men groping unwilling women simply because she danced near people at a concert.

Its kinda of like me saying i dont like men who slap people and then you showing a video of a someone putting their hand on my face and calling it a contradiction

What a ****ing stupid thread. I know you keep saying you dont care for Trump, its difficult to believe you when you twisted a scene in to whatever this is though.

Right, but this really is nothing. You're disregarding a womans thought on sexual assault (disgusting by the way, not the point im making but still grim of you) simply because there is three seconds of footage of her dancing into a crowd of hands at her concert. This is the biggest piece of nothing i've ever read.

Even in your eyes Miley let herself be groped for 3 seconds (that isnt what happened but for arguments sake, lets say it is). That is multitudes different to any person groping an unwilling person for three seconds (more likely, a lot longer than this, but for arguments sake).

That is the complete difference of consent and assault. Youve disregarded Mileys thoughts on assault because youve seen her give consent.

This thread is completely grim. Almost perpetuating rape culture and sounding like a meninist with an agenda.

"Mileys not allowed to dislike assault cos heres three secs of her fans with their hands on her body" get out.

The difference between Miley Cyrus' tours and Trump's victims are consent.I pity anyone who can't tell the difference between these two cases or think that Miley's antics on tour somehow diminishes her opinion.

I'm really disappointed in you, Kirk.

How embarrassing.

Once again, I'd just like to echo what every single person in this thread bar 2 are saying and I'd also like to add that I dont really think youre thinking it through if youre saying Cyrus is more likely to be jumping on an 'i hate trump bandwagon' than Cyrus is just simply hating Trump. Like fair enough you like him, clearly.. but atleast acknowledge one of the many reasons there are to hate this guy. Its less of a bandwagon and more of a fact-train. A lot of people hate Trump, its perfectly plausible that Cyrus, Hanks or any other celeb who publicly announce this does too, its just idiotic to presume that theyre doing it to increase their likability.
Also struggling to understand your point.. I think its Cyrus isnt allowed to hate Trump cos shes a slag
And thats obviously odd.
With a side note of 'nothing is black or white apart from this view i have about miley, no arguing here'
Also odd.

I dont think you really have a point if you cant even explain it to others' understanding in about 2000 words or three pages on a forum. Its more of a cluster**** of weird musings.


what was it The Truth said about bullying.....

:rolleyes:

[Withano]

If you have a genuine problem in understanding what I write, then I suggest that YOU have the problem in simple comprehension.

Your posts are beginning to appear like the written equivalent of a 'stuck record' and let me assure you that I don't cry 'bully' because I enjoy whupping bullies asses figuratively AND literally.

I said "it SEEMS like there is an ATTEMPT to bully me" NOT that I am BEING bullied.

'SEEMS like' is NOT the same as 'BEING'. 'ATTEMPT' is NOT the same as 'SUCCEEDING'

It SEEMS (there's that confusing word again) weird how I am a PAID author of several Short Stories and numerous articles for various organisations, and have just completed the first draft of a novel - the sample chapters which have just won me a quite prestigious Literary Agent - but yet I am to self-flagellate because YOU cannot understand what I am writing.

Goodnight.

A stuck record? Youve spent 3000 words trying to explain one argument and completely got in a huff because next to nobody (not just me by a longshot) could understand what you were tring to argue :joker: heres to a new day.
Not sure if a personal insult in my comprehension skills are necessary. But thats what ive come to expect from tibb, seems youre making an attempt to bully me.

[jaxie]

I can see where you are coming from on this Kirk, it's about the moral compass of those casting stones on others alleged behaviour. It's a good point, no matter what you personally think of either of the people mentioned.

I think Miley's behavior is equally reprehensible because as a recording star her sexualized behaviour is going to have an impact on young girls, influencing that this kind of thing is acceptable. And also on young boys, showing them an iconic woman as a sexual object. It is a step too far to act in this way and would have far more impact on the impressionable than some sexual boasting by a fusty old man like Trump. In essence Trump is treating women as sexual objects but Miley is portraying herself as one. Neither should be acceptable.

What I don't understand with regard the allegations about Trump, and indeed with regard other media personalities accused of similar, is why no one came forward when the alleged incident happened. It must in part be down to personalities, age at the time and other factors but it's quite hard to understand why there is so little speaking out. If someone touched me inappropriately, no matter who it was, I'd scream blue murder and possibly break a few fingers. I suppose, as TS so eloquently inferred on another thread with regard some forum members, it's a good thing LT isn't doing anything excitable to Jaxie's tears. There would be hell to pay.

[Ammi]

...well I guess that my opinion is that an iconic woman or any woman can also choose to be a sexual object as well on her own terms and in her own decisions of who can touch her intimately if she wants to...because anyone's moral compass...(within the law and not infringing on anyone's else's freedom or choices..)...is only for them to decide...there is no one size fits all moral compass, these are things that we all decide for ourselves and one of the few controls we have and don't detract from any rights we have...

[Crimson Dynamo]

A stuck record? Youve spent 3000 words trying to explain one argument and completely got in a huff because next to nobody (not just me by a longshot) could understand what you were tring to argue :joker: heres to a new day.
Not sure if a personal insult in my comprehension skills are necessary. But thats what ive come to expect from tibb, seems youre making an attempt to bully me.

:facepalm:

[Withano]

:facepalm:

Oops, LT not understanding the context of my post and facepalming a paraphrased quote from Kirk. I agree LT, it is a ridiculous thing to say in the debates section.

[jaxie]

...well I guess that my opinion is that an iconic woman or any woman can also choose to be a sexual object as well on her own terms and in her own decisions of who can touch her intimately if she wants to...because anyone's moral compass...(within the law and not infringing on anyone's else's freedom or choices..)...is only for them to decide...there is no one size fits all moral compass, these are things that we all decide for ourselves and one of the few controls we have and don't detract from any rights we have...

Well she can of course but where you might be in a position to influence others with the message you are putting across, perhaps it needs more thought.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Oops, LT not understanding the context of my post and facepalming a paraphrased quote from Kirk. I agree LT, it is a ridiculous thing to say in the debates section.

trying to cover your tracks with humour will not work i am afraid

[Cherie]

I can see where you are coming from on this Kirk, it's about the moral compass of those casting stones on others alleged behaviour. It's a good point, no matter what you personally think of either of the people mentioned.

I think Miley's behavior is equally reprehensible because as a recording star her sexualized behaviour is going to have an impact on young girls, influencing that this kind of thing is acceptable. And also on young boys, showing them an iconic woman as a sexual object. It is a step too far to act in this way and would have far more impact on the impressionable than some sexual boasting by a fusty old man like Trump. In essence Trump is treating women as sexual objects but Miley is portraying herself as one. Neither should be acceptable.

What I don't understand with regard the allegations about Trump, and indeed with regard other media personalities accused of similar, is why no one came forward when the alleged incident happened. It must in part be down to personalities, age at the time and other factors but it's quite hard to understand why there is so little speaking out. If someone touched me inappropriately, no matter who it was, I'd scream blue murder and possibly break a few fingers. I suppose, as TS so eloquently inferred on another thread with regard some forum members, it's a good thing LT isn't doing anything excitable to Jaxie's tears. There would be hell to pay.


Nicely put Jaxie

[Ammi]

Well she can of course but where you might be in a position to influence others with the message you are putting across, perhaps it needs more thought.

..I do understand what you say Jaxie but I guess we just have different perspectives in the 'influence' that can be projected on celebrity and entertainment because back in the day as it were when messages were demanded from celebrity in their image and what they portrayed...like for instance, Rock Hudson or Cary Grant...the image expected was one that said 'you can't be yourself' and that to me seemed to bring a lot of unhappiness into their lives and not being able to be who they were...so whatever moral compass Miley is giving herself in her performances and her life choices...?..the message to me will always have a great positive of her having the freedom to be who she is and exercising that freedom without it having any bearing on her 'credentials', you know....

[Withano]

trying to cover your tracks with humour will not work i am afraid

My tracks are on display for you to read and reread. My point throughout the discussion was that it is a pretty grim thread that lacks any solid argument, this is still true. I've learned that Kirk doesnt like negative feedback, doesnt understand opposing opinions on a debate section and fails to understand why anybody would ever have an opposing opinion to his super awesome thread, he also doesnt understand paraphrasing, I'll remember this for next time to make this discussion flow better.
I've been accused of making an attempt to bully simply because many people in this thread had the same concerns I did and I turned it around to highlight how ridiculous a comment like that is, you've already accidentally agreed with this.

[Ammi]

..so now there is (for the first time..)...very definite targeting of a specific person.../poor Withano and how ironic, LT...

[Crimson Dynamo]

My tracks are on display for you to read and reread. My point throughout the discussion was that it is a pretty grim thread that lacks any solid argument, this is still true. I've learned that Kirk doesnt like negative feedback, doesnt understand opposing opinions on a debate section and fails to understand why anybody would ever have an opposing opinion to his super awesome thread, he also doesnt understand paraphrasing, I'll remember this for next time to make this discussion flow better.
I've been accused of making an attempt to bully simply because many people in this thread had the same concerns I did and I turned it around to highlight how ridiculous a comment like that is, you've already accidentally agreed with this.

Im afraid all you have achieved is to shine the mirror back on yourself for all to see...

[user104658]

..so now there is (for the first time..)...very definite targeting of a specific person.../poor Withano and how ironic, LT...

Agreed Ammi, I'm not buying into any of this ridiculous "bullying :bawling:" rhetoric but it does seem that a little posse has formed around Kirk in this thread in the last few pages to defend him against "being bullied" (... :umm2: ...) by ganging up on and belittling another member who they have perceived as a "weak link". Hmmm. Oh and fighting for the god-given right to slut shame.

Tbh I reckon I've been slacking and Kirk has forgotten what an old fashioned SD&N fight night really looks like :hehe:

[Ammi]

..the irony of a thread concept that's basically saying the kettle has no right to call the pot black and refers to jumping on band-wagons..and then accuses of targeting an OP which by nature of being an OP will create the focus in opinions directly...and then targets a member...yep, there are days when you couldn't make it up....kettle calling pot/jumping on bandwagons....streuth....

[user104658]

:facepalm:

trying to cover your tracks with humour will not work i am afraid

Im afraid all you have achieved is to shine the mirror back on yourself for all to see...

And LT! You're just getting straight up lazy. I reckon you have a notepad document open with about 20 of these sorts of phrases and you just copy and paste them into threads. Come on! More effort required.

[Ammi]

Agreed Ammi, I'm not buying into any of this ridiculous "bullying :bawling:" rhetoric but it does seem that a little posse has formed around Kirk in this thread in the last few pages to defend him against "being bullied" (... :umm2: ...) by ganging up on and belittling another member who they have perceived as a "weak link". Hmmm. Oh and fighting for the god-given right to slut shame.

Tbh I reckon I've been slacking and Kirk has forgotten what an old fashioned SD&N fight night really looks like :hehe:

..ughhhh, I have to go, I'm going to hand this baton to you..:laugh:..but this is so, so unfair on Withano and so wrong ..../catch you later..:love:..

[Crimson Dynamo]

And LT! You're just getting straight up lazy. I reckon you have a notepad document open with about 20 of these sorts of phrases and you just copy and paste them into threads. Come on! More effort required.

I think Kirk has been treated shamefully in this thread and specifically by one poster who I am amazed is still here

[Ammi]

I think Withano has been treated shamefully in this thread and specifically by one poster who I am amazed is still here

...yeah, well maybe...but you've only just got back, it would be sad if you went again so soon...

[Crimson Dynamo]

...yeah, well maybe...but you've only just got back, it would be sad if you went again so soon...

Irrelevant

[user104658]

..ughhhh, I have to go, I'm going to hand this baton to you..:laugh:..but this is so, so unfair on Withano and so wrong ..../catch you later..:love:..

https://media.giphy.com/media/97iwV2aovwguc/giphy.gif


I think Kirk has been treated shamefully in this thread and specifically by one poster who I am amazed is still here

Nonsense LT, it's milder than 90% of threads on here and you know it, and nothing that Kirk isn't more than capable of either ignoring or tackling himself when he gets around to remembering that he isn't a butt-hurt teenager, but an intelligent grown man, who doesn't need to whine about "people trying to bully him" to prompt other grown men to rally to his defense. There's been a deliberate attempt to manipulate the narrative here by making withano's posts seem much worse than they actually are. They're a version of many other posts in the thread (the authors of which I'm sure supposedly make up the rest of the "bully gang"?) that are a teeny, tiny bit more blunt... making that member, like I said, the perceived "weak link" to gang up against in retaliation. And you talk about shameful.

[kirklancaster]

https://media.giphy.com/media/97iwV2aovwguc/giphy.gif




Nonsense LT, it's milder than 90% of threads on here and you know it, and nothing that Kirk isn't more than capable of either ignoring or tackling himself when he gets around to remembering that he isn't a butt-hurt teenager, but an intelligent grown man, who doesn't need to whine about "people trying to bully him" to prompt other grown men to rally to his defense. There's been a deliberate attempt to manipulate the narrative here by making withano's posts seem much worse than they actually are. They're a version of many other posts in the thread (the authors of which I'm sure supposedly make up the rest of the "bully gang"?) that are a teeny, tiny bit more blunt... making that member, like I said, the perceived "weak link" to gang up against in retaliation. And you talk about shameful.

I'n actually very busy at this moment, but you can be sure that I WILL be on to answer you and others on here very soon.

[joeysteele]

..ughhhh, I have to go, I'm going to hand this baton to you..:laugh:..but this is so, so unfair on Withano and so wrong ..../catch you later..:love:..

I stand by all my contributions on this thread as to Trump and Miley Cyrus which are few really anyway.

I do have to agree with all you say in your post above however.

[Liam-]

I've never been a fan of Miley, nor her attention seeking conduct on stage and in the general media, however, to completely diminish her opinion on an incredibly prominent topic right now is to me, ludicrous, yes she may wear little to nothing, yes she might be provocative on stage and in her songs, yes she may do some weird things to garner attention, but that does not mean that she shouldn't be entitled to an opinion on alleged sexual assault or the presidency.

While I agree that some women (not the ones accusing him of assault) probably have let Donald grope them through the years because of his 'power' I see no reason why someone should not be allowed their opinion on the matter, just because they've done some weird, consensual stuff themselves.

If anything, as an American woman, Miley is probably more entitled to an opinion on the whole matter than any of us.

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://media.giphy.com/media/97iwV2aovwguc/giphy.gif




Nonsense LT, it's milder than 90% of threads on here and you know it, and nothing that Kirk isn't more than capable of either ignoring or tackling himself when he gets around to remembering that he isn't a butt-hurt teenager, but an intelligent grown man, who doesn't need to whine about "people trying to bully him" to prompt other grown men to rally to his defense. There's been a deliberate attempt to manipulate the narrative here by making withano's posts seem much worse than they actually are. They're a version of many other posts in the thread (the authors of which I'm sure supposedly make up the rest of the "bully gang"?) that are a teeny, tiny bit more blunt... making that member, like I said, the perceived "weak link" to gang up against in retaliation. And you talk about shameful.

I agree some of the posts have been shameful and personal and a bully mentality prevailed against Kirk. ONly yesterday poor Josy had to again bump the sniping thread again to warn members about this.

Hopefully now the guilty parties will have taken note.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I've never been a fan of Miley, nor her attention seeking conduct on stage and in the general media, however, to completely diminish her opinion on an incredibly prominent topic right now is to me, ludicrous, yes she may wear little to nothing, yes she might be provocative on stage and in her songs, yes she may do some weird things to garner attention, but that does not mean that she shouldn't be entitled to an opinion on alleged sexual assault or the presidency.

While I agree that some women (not the ones accusing him of assault) probably have let Donald grope them through the years because of his 'power' I see no reason why someone should not be allowed their opinion on the matter, just because they've done some weird, consensual stuff themselves.

If anything, as an American woman, Miley is probably more entitled to an opinion on the whole matter than any of us.


An excellent thoughtful post to the debate that argues against Kirks position but does not belittle him or it

:clap1:

[user104658]

I've never been a fan of Miley, nor her attention seeking conduct on stage and in the general media, however, to completely diminish her opinion on an incredibly prominent topic right now is to me, ludicrous, yes she may wear little to nothing, yes she might be provocative on stage and in her songs, yes she may do some weird things to garner attention, but that does not mean that she shouldn't be entitled to an opinion on alleged sexual assault or the presidency.

While I agree that some women (not the ones accusing him of assault) probably have let Donald grope them through the years because of his 'power' I see no reason why someone should not be allowed their opinion on the matter, just because they've done some weird, consensual stuff themselves.

If anything, as an American woman, Miley is probably more entitled to an opinion on the whole matter than any of us.

An excellent post and I completely agree; the idea that someone signs away their right to pass comment or discuss a political topic, for any reason (other than doing something objectively immoral or illegal) is not a good path to go down. Who gets to decide who has the "right to an opinion" or "the right to be taken seriously" on anything, then? I'm not a huge fan of Miley Cyrus and a lot of her stage persona makes me cringe, hard, but that doesn't mean (nor should it mean) that she doesn't have other entirely separate aspects to her character or that she shouldn't be taken seriously. And yes it seems very likely that a young American female would have a clearer perspective on this particular Trump issue, than cranky ol' British men.

[user104658]

I agree some of the posts have been shameful and personal and a bully mentality prevailed against Kirk.

Boo hoo. Cut it out LT, no one is buying what you're peddling here.

Only yesterday poor Josy had to again bump the sniping thread again to warn members about this.

Hopefully now the guilty parties will have taken note.


Nor is anyone buying that you even believe that repeatedly-bumped thread is targetted at one specific group or "side". It takes two to tango, etc etc, and I know Kirk himself isn't shy about sharing his opinion that his "face doesn't fit" with the mods / admins. Everyone here gets personal at times. That's what elevates the discussion ABOVE the bland, cold, clinical discussions you get on larger forums. Kirk's not above peppering his own posts with personal comments and amusing "threats" / brags either but that's half... or... maybe about 3/4... of the enjoyment! All of this whining and looking for forum staff to step in will end up breaking the place. Trust me. I've been an avid forum user since 1998 and I've seen plenty of them collapse under the strain of pettiness, including my own.

[user104658]

I'n actually very busy at this moment, but you can be sure that I WILL be on to answer you and others on here very soon.

http://i.giphy.com/W9lzJDwciz6bS.gif

[Josy]

Enough is enough! Stop this constant bickering it's always the same people ruining this section for everyone else.

This is aimed at all that's involved in these discussions, if the blatant baiting and sniping doesn't stop I will ban all involved and close the threads.