When is a terrorist not a terrorist?

[Kizzy]

When he's white and right wing?

Should Thomas Mair be considered a terrorist?



Nearly all other papers put a smiling picture of the Labour MP and mother of two young children on their front page on the day her killer received a full life sentence – even if they led their news coverage on the economy.

So what happened at the Mail? And what does it say about that paper’s view of – and impact on – the UK’s political life that the verdict on the first murder of a sitting MP for 26 years can be relegated so far inside its pages?

The story about Mair’s sentence came after a full 17 pages welcoming the verdict of an “upbeat chancellor” confounding those dastardly “remain doom-mongers”. In the pages that followed this autumn statement coverage came news reports about “laughing migrants”, photos of a bikini-clad model taking a shower and the headline news that Santa is not real. They also featured a full-page column asking why leftwing comics laugh at the Queen.

It is surely worth asking whether the threat from far-right extremist terrorists is taken seriously by the British press
When today’s Mail finally gets to the verdict on Mair, the main headline points out that he “wanted to kill his own mother”, while the secondary story asks: “Did neo-Nazi murder Jo over fear he’d lose council house he grew up in?”

Most newspapers (certainly not just the Guardian) cited the judge’s own verdict that Mair killed her to advance his violent white supremacist ideology rather than because he “suspected the MP might not have helped him” to fight the council’s bid to move him.

The introduction to the Mail piece – which states that Mair “may have murdered MP Jo Cox because he feared losing his home of 40 years to an immigrant family” – prompted law professor James Chalmers to tweet “turns out there really is nothing the Daily Mail can’t blame on immigrants”.

Would you consider this man a terrorist and what do you make of the mails attempted justification?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/24/daily-mail-jailing-jo-coxs-murderer-front-page

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/24/should-thomas-mair-be-considered-a-terrorist-jo-cox-murder

[Withano]

Theyre ****ing despicable.

[Cherie]

Of course he is a terrorist, although if the boot was on the other foot he might be mentally ill :think:


he introduction to the Mail piece – which states that Mair “may have murdered MP Jo Cox because he feared losing his home of 40 years to an immigrant family” – prompted law professor James Chalmers to tweet “turns out there really is nothing the Daily Mail can’t blame on immigrants”.


That's pretty low, under what circumstances would he lose his home :umm2:

[Kizzy]

Of course he is a terrorist, although if the boot was on the other foot he might be mentally ill :think:


he introduction to the Mail piece – which states that Mair “may have murdered MP Jo Cox because he feared losing his home of 40 years to an immigrant family” – prompted law professor James Chalmers to tweet “turns out there really is nothing the Daily Mail can’t blame on immigrants”.


That's pretty low, under what circumstances would he lose his home :umm2:

If the boot were on the other foot?... Sorry I don't follow :/

[Cherie]

If the boot were on the other foot?... Sorry I don't follow :/

Stabbing attacks in London recently have been put down to mental illness or that the victim was in a scummy part of London?

[Kizzy]

Stabbing attacks in London recently have been put down to mental illness or that the victim was in a scummy part of London?

Did the attacker make any reference to any organisation?

[Cherie]

Did the attacker make any reference to any organisation?

Yes in the case of the stabbing at Leytonstone

[Kizzy]

Yes in the case of the stabbing at Leytonstone

That was terrorism too yes, any terrorist you could argue has a degree of mental illness, that allowed them to reach the point where they were so convinced by their chosen cause they made the decision to kill for it. That said could we please discuss the matter in the OP for a while before diverting?

[Crimson Dynamo]

All newspapers pander to their readers and if they think a story wont sell papers it will not go on the the front page, dont for a minute kid yourself that this is somehow a "thing" just for right leaning print.

[Kizzy]

All newspapers pander to their readers and if they think a story wont sell papers it will not go on the the front page, dont for a minute kid yourself that this is somehow a "thing" just for right leaning print.

So what does this say about mail readers in your opinion?

[Crimson Dynamo]

So what does this say about mail readers in your opinion?

They are right wing but I think we knew that in the grand scheme of things.

[kirklancaster]

Of course he is a 'terrorist' because his evil crime struck terror into everyone that was present when he murdered poor Jo Cox, but until further information comes to light which proves that he was linked to any 'accepted' Terrorist Organisation, then he remains purely just an evil, deranged killer acting alone.

If he was 'Far Right' in his politics, then that may partly explain - but NOT excuse - his motives.

As for The Mail, I do not buy it, and cannot explain their methodology.

[Kizzy]

Links to the political right?

Mair had affiliations to an organisation called the Springbok Club and is described as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S.A. Patriot“, the magazine of Springbok, now independent. The motto of the Patriotic Forum (an umbrella grouping of patriotic organisations which the Springbok Club is part of) is “Out of Europe and into the World”. Basically, Springbok is a British-based pro-white supremacist, South African organisation. In 1998, UKIP’s Neil Hamilton spoke at the Springbok Club.

According to the World Socialist Web Site, Springbok has associations with the Swinton Circle, which was set up as a Conservative Party fringe group in the 1960s by backers of Tory right-wing xenophobe Enoch Powell. Swinton Circle’s publication, Tough Talking from the Right, held a special readers’ meeting and buffet in the City of London, where the guest speaker was UKIP (now interim) leader Nigel Farage.

Swinton is anti-Europe, but has been involved with the far-right Pegida movement and has attended demonstrations and meetings with other far-right organisations. In February 2016, the Swinton Circle was contacted by Pegida UK and asked to support its ‘Silent Walk‘ in Birmingham, to protest against ‘Islamisation’ throughout Europe.

In 2014, Liam Fox (now a Conservative government cabinet minister) and Owen Paterson MP (Conservative) addressed separate meetings of the Swinton Circle.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/11/24/the-truth-about-coxs-killer-links-far-right-political-establishment/

[jaxie]

A terrorist is a person who frightens or terrorises others. I don't think his race or affiliates come into it, he seems to fit the bill. I think what he did was terrifying.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Links to the political right?

Mair had affiliations to an organisation called the Springbok Club and is described as “one of the earliest subscribers and supporters of S.A. Patriot“, the magazine of Springbok, now independent. The motto of the Patriotic Forum (an umbrella grouping of patriotic organisations which the Springbok Club is part of) is “Out of Europe and into the World”. Basically, Springbok is a British-based pro-white supremacist, South African organisation. In 1998, UKIP’s Neil Hamilton spoke at the Springbok Club.

According to the World Socialist Web Site, Springbok has associations with the Swinton Circle, which was set up as a Conservative Party fringe group in the 1960s by backers of Tory right-wing xenophobe Enoch Powell. Swinton Circle’s publication, Tough Talking from the Right, held a special readers’ meeting and buffet in the City of London, where the guest speaker was UKIP (now interim) leader Nigel Farage.

Swinton is anti-Europe, but has been involved with the far-right Pegida movement and has attended demonstrations and meetings with other far-right organisations. In February 2016, the Swinton Circle was contacted by Pegida UK and asked to support its ‘Silent Walk‘ in Birmingham, to protest against ‘Islamisation’ throughout Europe.

In 2014, Liam Fox (now a Conservative government cabinet minister) and Owen Paterson MP (Conservative) addressed separate meetings of the Swinton Circle.

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/11/24/the-truth-about-coxs-killer-links-far-right-political-establishment/

did he not just have like a 30 year old pamphlet from this org. To me this guy was a nutjob with no pals and some dodgy old far right stuff lying about but he probably had books on carpentry and train spotting too.

[kirklancaster]

did he not just have like a 30 year old pamphlet from this org. To me this guy was a nutjob with no pals and some dodgy old far right stuff lying about but he probably had books on carpentry and train spotting too.

Absolutely LT. And is that 'Organisation' outlawed or a recognized 'Terror Group'? What did they last blow up or who did they last murder in cold blood?

I am a past member of 'The Guild Of Master Craftsmen' and 'The Federation of Master Builders' so I better destroy all my related files.

[Jake.]

The mail really are disgusting

[Niamh.]

The mail really are disgusting

Making excuses for him, is pretty low

[MTVN]

did he not just have like a 30 year old pamphlet from this org. To me this guy was a nutjob with no pals and some dodgy old far right stuff lying about but he probably had books on carpentry and train spotting too.

Nah he had a pretty extensive set of far-right literature. There's letters dating back years he sent into that South African mag, there's copies of lots of book orders for far-right books that he made pre-internet and he had loads of far-right memorabilia. These pics are from the BBC profile of him:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/5A5B/production/_92613132_hi036515207.jpg

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/816B/production/_92613133_clippings.jpg

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/B68B/production/_92613764_mair_order-4.png

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38071894

It does look like he was a loner who was never a part of any far-right organisation but he did have very deeply entrenched views which he had obviously nourished for decades

[arista]

"Should Thomas Mair be considered a terrorist?"


Yes , Kizzy
he is a NAZI

[Northern Monkey]

If his aims were political then by the dictionary definition he's a terrorist.I think the fact that he killed an MP points to terrorism if he indeed targeted her and it wasn't just random.I'd also say he must've been a nutter aswell.So i think he could be described as a 'terrorist nutjob'

[Tom4784]

The Mail being a backwards pile of disgusting wank is nothing new.

They obviously don't believe that someone who isn't a Muslim can be a terrorist because it 'muddles' the narrative they prefer to **** out. It obviously believes it's target audience is more comfortable being scared of Arabs then it is of white people who aren't teenagers and/or single mothers.

The fact that they went as far as to attempt to defend him is crazy. To ignore the fact that other kinds of extremism exists is also beyond ridiculous. The man is a terrorist and should be treated as such. The fact is that the DM's coverage would have been way different if the terrorist wasn't white.

[Cherie]

The Mail being a backwards pile of disgusting wank is nothing new.

They obviously don't believe that someone who isn't a Muslim can be a terrorist because it 'muddles' the narrative they prefer to **** out. It obviously believes it's target audience is more comfortable being scared of Arabs then it is of white people who aren't teenagers and/or single mothers.

The fact that they went as far as to attempt to defend him is crazy. To ignore the fact that other kinds of extremism exists is also beyond ridiculous. The man is a terrorist and should be treated as such. The fact is that the DM's coverage would have been way different if the terrorist wasn't white.

The Mail has no issue in casting every Irish person as a terrorist back in the day, Muslims are the new Irish in Britain, it sells newspapers, it's not about skin colour

[arista]

"The man is a terrorist and should be treated as such"



Bang On Right Dezzy

[Crimson Dynamo]

How do you "treat him as a terrorist"

He has been banged up for life?

[Niamh.]

How do you "treat him as a terrorist"

He has been banged up for life?

Not make excuses for him in Newspapers?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not make excuses for him in Newspapers?

Newspapers are just opinion

[Niamh.]

Newspapers are just opinion

ok but that would still be a way that they could be treated like a Terrorist, you asked I answered :shrug:

[Kizzy]

Newspapers are just opinion

Whose opinion are they catering for?

[Crimson Dynamo]

ok but that would still be a way that they could be treated like a Terrorist, you asked I answered :shrug:

Well the people at the Mail dont see it like that, I guess they see him as a lone wolf nutter.

[Niamh.]

Well the people at the Mail dont see it like that, I guess they see him as a lone wolf nutter.

so he isn't being treated like a terrorist..............

[Tom4784]

Not make excuses for him in Newspapers?

Or attempt to garner sympathy for him and his cause by making out he was worried about losing his house.

[Kizzy]

Well the people at the Mail dont see it like that, I guess they see him as a lone wolf nutter.

If that were true why paint him as the victim? Not that this explains the lack of coverage of the verdict.

[UserSince2005]

Hes not a terrorist because he wasnt trying to terrorise the general population, Just specifically the lefty liberals.

[Cherie]

If that were true why paint him as the victim? Not that this explains the lack of coverage of the verdict.

I don't think there was a lack of coverage, the verdict for this and the serial murderer story came on the day of the Autumn statement so were pushed off the front pages

[Crimson Dynamo]

If that were true why paint him as the victim? Not that this explains the lack of coverage of the verdict.

its just an argument about positioning really, it was covered and covered well online (bigger than the measly print publication). They took the decision to place it where they did as its their call. I may take issue with where the Guardian or Indie place Farage success stories but I guess you dont care where they go?

[Kizzy]

I don't think there was a lack of coverage, the verdict for this and the serial murderer story came on the day of the Autumn statement so were pushed off the front pages

'Only two British newspapers failed to feature a picture of Jo Cox on their front pages today, as the terrorist killer of the MP was jailed: the Financial Times and the Daily Mail.'

It made page 7 of the mail, hence the link in the OP that this quote is from.

[Cherie]

'Only two British newspapers failed to feature a picture of Jo Cox on their front pages today, as the terrorist killer of the MP was jailed: the Financial Times and the Daily Mail.'

It made page 7 of the mail, hence the link in the OP that this quote is from.

So there wasn't a lack of coverage then? No one is surprised at the Mail

[MTVN]

Not really surprising with the FT either seeing as they're mainly concerned with political economy and give a bigger focus to global news

[Kizzy]

So there wasn't a lack of coverage then? No one is surprised at the Mail

Can you do me a favour Cherie and just read the OP? you seem to be totally confused as to what this thread is about.

[Cherie]

If that were true why paint him as the victim? Not that this explains the lack of coverage of the verdict.

I don't think there was a lack of coverage, the verdict for this and the serial murderer story came on the day of the Autumn statement so were pushed off the front pages

'Only two British newspapers failed to feature a picture of Jo Cox on their front pages today, as the terrorist killer of the MP was jailed: the Financial Times and the Daily Mail.'

It made page 7 of the mail, hence the link in the OP that this quote is from.

So there wasn't a lack of coverage then? No one is surprised at the Mail

Can you do me a favour Cherie and just read the OP? you seem to be totally confused as to what this thread is about.


Am I?

[Cherie]

I'm not being funny but why are you even questioning the Mails stance on this :laugh:

[Cherie]

Also why don't you think MTVN is confused :idc: oh he's a mod :fist:

[Cherie]

Shall I keep going...:hee:

[Kizzy]

[/B]










Am I?

The lack of coverage....In the mail.
I'm not sure if they are treating this with the gravitas it deserves. If it's because they don't see this as a terrorist act, and if not why not?
Then I thought I'd pose that question to the forum, are we clear yet?

[Kizzy]

Also why don't you think MTVN is confused :idc: oh he's a mod :fist:

Well he made a sensible post on page 1 so I let him off.

[Cherie]

Well he made a sensible post on page 1 so I let him off.

I made sensible posts as well they are just not to your liking, so you try to bully me :idc:

[joeysteele]

He is a terrorist and he likely would have wanted to take more lives had he got away with this one.

Like in the Lee Rigby case,caught in the act, no doubt as to their guilt and they just as this vile human being Mair too, plead not guilty at their trials.

No remorse, no shame no acknowledgement of the rotten brutal murder they chose to commit.

As for the Daily Mail, I guess they put this somewhere well into the paper than the front page, had this been a Conservative MP it would have probably been on the font page.
I have not time for the Daily Mail, in fact I have little time for any of the press now anyway.

However the Daily Mail particularly is one publication I wouldn't even soil my hands on even touching it to look more closely at it, let alone ever buying it.

[Brillopad]

He is a terrorist and he likely would have wanted to take more lives had he got away with this one.

Like in the Lee Rigby case,caught in the act, no doubt as to their guilt and they just as this vile human being Mair too, plead not guilty at their trials.

No remorse, no shame no acknowledgement of the rotten brutal murder they chose to commit.

As for the Daily Mail, I guess they put this somewhere well into the paper than the front page, had this been a Conservative MP it would have probably been on the font page.
I have not time for the Daily Mail, in fact I have little time for any of the press now anyway.

However the Daily Mail particularly is one publication I wouldn't even soil my hands on even touching it to look more closely at it, let alone ever buying it.

To seriously suggest that a daily newspaper were less concerned about the brutal murder of a labour MP than they would have been been of a Tory MP is ridiculous.

The worst thing though is to attempt to make any comparison between the motivations/mindset of the killers in both these cases. Lee Rigby' killers were hardline terrorists out to kill anyone who fitted their agenda, in this case a British soldier. The MP's killer had a fixation on this particular MP and is clearly mentally ill.

[joeysteele]

To seriously suggest that a daily newspaper were less concerned about the brutal murder of a labour MP than they would have been been of a Tory MP is ridiculous.

The worst thing though is to attempt to make any comparison between the motivations/mindset of the killers in both these cases. Lee Rigby' killers were hardline terrorists out to kill anyone who fitted their agenda, in this case a British soldier. The MP's killer had a fixation on this particular MP and is clearly mentally ill.

Firstly,I came from a Conservative background and was a supporter until I was 18.
However now 24 over the years I have come to see things differently,so it is not a left wing obsession as to the Mail in fact it is fact.
This is the paper that shockingly slandered Miliband's Father on its front pages, if you cannot see that the Mail is heavily prejudiced to the right as against the left, that is not my problem.

This man Mair, please do not infer mental illness, that cop out for so many rotten crimes.
This man researched,acquired the weapons, planned and executed his crime no less so than the vile murderers of Lee Rigby.
Who also were deliberately targetting a Soldier, because they hate the British armed forces.

This man in the end targetted this MP, because her views differed from his and all he had become obsessed with as to believing was right from his vile collection of memorabilia and reading matter.

The worst thing anyone can do, in my view, is to try to say he has a mental illness.
No he has not, he was able to sit in court all trough his trial, refuse to take the stand and was fully able to plan this atrocious act, long before enacting it too.

He is a terrorist, he should be treated like one, no way should mental illness get more stigmatised by people claiming he has a mental illness, none of which was said in court or before or after this case either.
I would imagine anyone reading your post claiming he is mentally ill to have done this, who themselves may have any mental issues would be horrified by your words.

No way should he be justified even in any small way whatsoever for this act and certainly not by playing a mental illness card..

[Withano]

Firstly,I came from a Conservative background and was a supporter until I was 18.
However now 24 over the years I have come to see things differently,so it is not a left wing obsession as to the Mail in fact it is fact.
This is the paper that shockingly slandered Miliband's Father on its front pages, if you cannot see that the Mail is heavily prejudiced to the right as against the left, that is not my problem.

This man Mair, please do not infer mental illness, that cop out for so many rotten crimes.
This man researched,acquired the weapons, planned and executed his crime no less so than the vile murderers of Lee Rigby.
Who also were deliberately targetting a Soldier, because they hate the British armed forces.

This man in the end targetted this MP, because her views differed from his and all he had become obsessed with as to believing was right from his vile collection of memorabilia and reading matter.

The worst thing anyone can do, in my view, is to try to say he has a mental illness.
No he has not, he was able to sit in court all trough his trial, refuse to take the stand and was fully able to plan this atrocious act, long before enacting it too.

He is a terrorist, he should be treated like one, no way should mental illness get more stigmatised by people claiming he has a mental illness, none of which was said in court or before or after this case either.
I would imagine anyone reading your post claiming he is mentally ill to have done this, who themselves may have any mental issues would be horrified by your words.

No way should he be justified even in any small way whatsoever for this act and certainly not by playing a mental illness card..

Everything about this is brilliant

[Brillopad]

The title of this thread is when is a terrorist not a terrorist, it is perfectly in order to point out if someone sees it that way, that the murderers of Lee Rigby were terrorists, thereby then making a conclusion as to if they see this man Mair as one too.

In both cases, the victims were not just murdered, they were brutally murdered with no chance to defend themselves, both were just doing their jobs in and for the UK and in their careers, they were both murdered for what they stood for and believed in.

No trace or mention of mental illness offered officially at their trials and all would have been seen be medical staff.
I see a strong connection as to the 2, both victims of the establishment one a serving Soldier another a serving MP.
he is a terrorist, pure and simple in my book, no matter ow you may want to dress him up as even just maybe, not certainly, mentally ill.

I still say that is an affront to people who are genuinely mentally ill, that savage pre-meditated murderers like this have anyone soiling the illness, by claiming that is part of the reason for their vile, savage and planned actions.

Mental illness comes in all shapes and sizes, with violence often being a consequence. That is in no way saying that everyione with mental illness is violent or dangerous or that those that are are necessarily responsible for their actions. Every case is different. He may simply be an evil 'b****rd', but still not convinced this makes him a 'terrorist'.

It is pretty obvious that the op has an agenda in attempting to state that not all terrorists are Muslims', but no one is saying they are. Of course there are plenty of non-Muslim terrorists, including white ones. But currently, in the West, those posing a threat to our way of life and causing widespread concern are. In my opinion, this makes the thread rather pointless.

[waterhog]

Mental illness comes in all shapes and sizes, with violence often being a consequence. That is in no way saying that everyione with mental illness is violent or dangerous or that those that are are necessarily responsible for their actions. Every case is different. He may simply be an evil 'b****rd', but still not convinced this makes him a 'terrorist'.

It is pretty obvious that the op has an agenda in attempting to state that not all terrorists are Muslims', but no one is saying they are. Of course there are plenty of non-Muslim terrorists, including white ones. But currently, in the West, those posing a threat to our way of life and causing widespread concern are. In my opinion, this makes the thread rather pointless.


great point and I will just point out - there is no difference from being mentally ill or having cancer - neither did the person ask for and as a caring society it is only right we look after and help as best we can.


I bring terror with my poems - am I a terrorist :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Mail may lean to the right, just as others lean to the left, but I don't see people constantly slagging-off the left-leaners (newspapers) in an attempt to discredit other posters' opinions in the way some some left-leaners on here constantly do. Some are so obsessed with their hatred of a newspaper and so pedicable you are just waiting for the inevitable 'tantrum'. It's so boring.

I still feel there is evidence to suggest the MP's killer maybe mentally ill. That in no way lessens the horror of his crime, but it certainly needs to be completely ruled out first. Either way he will be taken off the streets to keep the rest of us safe.

I don't believe comparing him to the killers of Lee Rigby is constructive. I think these cases were entirely different with the former posing much more of a risk to our society in general. They are religous zealots ( and I use the word 'religous' very loosely) as their idea of religion is power and control. I feel the other is simply one of society's mis-fits, for whatever reason, making any kind of comparison fruitless.

excellent points

[Brillopad]

great point and I will just point out - there is no difference from being mentally ill or having cancer - neither did the person ask for and as a caring society it is only right we look after and help as best we can.


I bring terror with my poems - am I a terrorist :joker:

I find some extreme left views and ideologies quite terrifying so where do we draw the line. One man's terror is another's ...

[Kizzy]

I made sensible posts as well they are just not to your liking, so you try to bully me :idc:

If you have I apologise, I must have missed it. I'm not a bully.

[Kizzy]

The Mail may lean to the right, just as others lean to the left, but I don't see people constantly slagging-off the left-leaners (newspapers) in an attempt to discredit other posters' opinions in the way some some left-leaners on here constantly do. Some are so obsessed with their hatred of a newspaper and so pedicable you are just waiting for the inevitable 'tantrum'. It's so boring.

I still feel there is evidence to suggest the MP's killer maybe mentally ill. That in no way lessens the horror of his crime, but it certainly needs to be completely ruled out first. Either way he will be taken off the streets to keep the rest of us safe.

I don't believe comparing him to the killers of Lee Rigby is constructive. I think these cases were entirely different with the former posing much more of a risk to our society in general. They are religous zealots ( and I use the word 'religous' very loosely) as their idea of religion is power and control. I feel the other is simply one of society's mis-fits, for whatever reason, making any kind of comparison fruitless.

It is entirely apt to draw a comparison between the two as Lee Rigbys killers did so not due to any religious extremism but as a reaction to British foreign policy.

[Kizzy]

Mental illness comes in all shapes and sizes, with violence often being a consequence. That is in no way saying that everyione with mental illness is violent or dangerous or that those that are are necessarily responsible for their actions. Every case is different. He may simply be an evil 'b****rd', but still not convinced this makes him a 'terrorist'.

It is pretty obvious that the op has an agenda in attempting to state that not all terrorists are Muslims', but no one is saying they are. Of course there are plenty of non-Muslim terrorists, including white ones. But currently, in the West, those posing a threat to our way of life and causing widespread concern are. In my opinion, this makes the thread rather pointless.

I disagree I would say equal or greater is the rise of the supremacists, they are a threat to our human rights which we have founded our democracy on in modern times.
If you consider the thread pointless feel free to post elsewhere and allow those who wish to continue the debate to do so.

[Brillopad]

I disagree I would say equal or greater is the rise of the supremacists, they are a threat to our human rights which we have founded our democracy on in modern times.
If you consider the thread pointless feel free to post elsewhere and allow those who wish to continue the debate to do so.

I disagree. Unfortunately one is a direct result of the other. When you push people too far and put the needs of people coming into the country over and above those of the indigenous population, and at their expense, the boundaries on things like democracy and human rights start to become blurred especially when their views on democracy and human rights are at odds with those already here.

Many have died to preserve the democratic freedoms and prosperous way of life in the West, and to disrespect their sacrifice demonstrates indifference and lack of respect. I can't imagine many of those so happy to risk giving away our future freedoms would be so brave. The short-sightedness of many is disturbing.

[Cherie]

If you have I apologise, I must have missed it. I'm not a bully.

Apology accepted :D:

[Kizzy]

I disagree. Unfortunately one is a direct result of the other. When you push people too far and put the needs of people coming into the country over and above those of the indigenous population, and at their expense, the boundaries on things like democracy and human rights start to become blurred especially when their views on democracy and human rights are at odds with those already here.

Many have died to preserve the democratic freedoms and prosperous way of life in the West, and to disrespect their sacrifice demonstrates indifference and lack of respect. I can't imagine many of those so happy to risk giving away our future freedoms would be so brave. The short-sightedness of many is disturbing.

No, I most certanly do NOT subscribe to that, as I made clear on another thread there are no actions, no words that justifies any form of supremacist uprising. NONE.
I've seen this suggested a few times now and it's as distasteful as it is excusatory.

I appreciate that many died to ensure our continued freedom in the west, it's exactly this they were fighting against Brillopad.
To me the fact you can't see that is the greatest example of short sightedness.

[Kizzy]

Apology accepted :D:

You're very welcome.

:umm2: still haven't found that sensible post btw... Are you sure it was this thread sweetie?







:hee:

[Brillopad]

No, I most certanly do NOT subscribe to that, as I made clear on another thread there are no actions, no words that justifies any form of supremacist uprising. NONE.
I've seen this suggested a few times now and it's as distasteful as it is excusatory.

I appreciate that many died to ensure our continued freedom in the west, it's exactly this they were fighting against Brillopad.
To me the fact you can't see that is the greatest example of short sightedness.

Yes they made this sacrifice to preserve these freedoms but I do not believe they would have done so if they could see how easily idealistic and naive future generations would put them at risk?

[Kizzy]

Yes they made this sacrifice to preserve these freedoms but I do not believe they would have done so if they could see how easily idealistic and naive future generations would put them at risk?

Those human rights as legislated for by us post war are at risk, not from any external force but from our own government.

[Withano]

I find some extreme left views and ideologies quite terrifying so where do we draw the line. One man's terror is another's ...

Which ones?

[Cherie]

You're very welcome.

:umm2: still haven't found that sensible post btw... Are you sure it was this thread sweetie?







:hee:

:oh: