Pushchairs on buses - poor behaviour of pushchair users

[Brillopad]

Disabled wheelchair users spent years campaigning for wheelchair spaces on buses as this is their only means of transport. How disgusting of mothers to think they should have priority for these spaces for their pushchairs. Without the campaign of wheelchair users there would be no such spaces on buses at all.

Although it is okay to use these spaces the rest of the time pushchair users should undoubtedly move when a wheelchair user gets on. Anyone who refuses to move should be put off the bus or fined and forced to pay just like people to commit parking offences. Shame on them!!!

[Cherie]

Hasn't the Supreme Court recently ruled on this, drivers will have to ensure the space is vacated if a wheelchair user needs the space

[user104658]

It's a tough one though... what are the options? Let's say there is already a baby in a pram in the space and a wheelchair user needs to get on. You only have two options. Put the pram in the aisle unsecure (which is dangerous), or tell the people with the pram to then get OFF the bus, potentially miles from their destination AND miles from home.

The only solution, then, is to make wheelchair spaces strictly wheelchairs only, rather than "priority".

[Cherie]

It's a tough one though... what are the options? Let's say there is already a baby in a pram in the space and a wheelchair user needs to get on. You only have two options. Put the pram in the aisle unsecure (which is dangerous), or tell the people with the pram to then get OFF the bus, potentially miles from their destination AND miles from home.

The only solution, then, is to make wheelchair spaces strictly wheelchairs only, rather than "priority".

Yeah I was going to add that the design of buses should be changed to incorporate both

[Brillopad]

Hasn't the Supreme Court recently ruled on this, drivers will have to ensure the space is vacated if a wheelchair user needs the space

They have to try but cannot force them off the bus apparently. If they are not able to enforce this they should be able to fine the mother or, if necessary, call the police. I know that seems extreme but if they cannot enforce this it will probably happen more often now people know it can't be enforced.

I have used buses with a pushchair in the past and would always move for a wheelchair user as that is who the spaces are designed for. I have never seen anyone refuse personally. I cannot understand the type of mentality that thinks it is ok to to do that.

[Brillopad]

It's a tough one though... what are the options? Let's say there is already a baby in a pram in the space and a wheelchair user needs to get on. You only have two options. Put the pram in the aisle unsecure (which is dangerous), or tell the people with the pram to then get OFF the bus, potentially miles from their destination AND miles from home.

The only solution, then, is to make wheelchair spaces strictly wheelchairs only, rather than "priority".

I see your point but people should only use small buggies on buses not prams as these are impractical with the potential of causing such problems.

They should consider themselves lucky to have access to these spaces most of the time as mothers haven't always had this facility, they previously had to manage. Wheelchair users can't manage.

[arista]

Yes Wheelchairs Are First

The Problem with one boss of a Company
his drivers can not leave the cab
as it has £5,000 in cash in it


He was Early on AM LBC last week

[arista]

The Best way is Turn the Bus Off
and tell the FAT lady with the Push chair and child
to fold it up.

I am sure others well help her
as the bus Ain't Going until the Wheelchair person
is the the PROPER place


Thats the Way to do it
TS , LT and DR

[user104658]

I see your point but people should only use small buggies on buses not prams as these are impractical with the potential of causing such problems.

They should consider themselves lucky to have access to these spaces most of the time as mothers haven't always had this facility, they previously had to manage. Wheelchair users can't manage.

I agree in principle that people shouldn't bother trying to take prams on public transport, they are a nightmare to get on and off, too. We always used slings / baby carriers because we were stuck using public transport when mine were very little and it's a thousands times more convenient for everyone.

I can sympathise with both sides though because, the sad fact of the matter is, public transport is just straight up stressful / not fun for anyone... I don't mind trains so much (WITHOUT kids with me) but buses are just awful, even alone. No one is having fun.

Of course there are other inherent problems, too... I mean it's all very well saying that prams / buggies must move for a wheelchair but... what if the bus comes to a stop where a wheelchair user needs to get on, but there is ALREADY another wheelchair in the space? Urgh.

Basically I just feel bad for anyone who is stuck having to deal with public transport. We had to for years and it's ****ing miserable.

[Brillopad]

I agree in principle that people shouldn't bother trying to take prams on public transport, they are a nightmare to get on and off, too. We always used slings / baby carriers because we were stuck using public transport when mine were very little and it's a thousands times more convenient for everyone.

I can sympathise with both sides though because, the sad fact of the matter is, public transport is just straight up stressful / not fun for anyone... I don't mind trains so much (WITHOUT kids with me) but buses are just awful, even alone. No one is having fun.

Of course there are other inherent problems, too... I mean it's all very well saying that prams / buggies must move for a wheelchair but... what if the bus comes to a stop where a wheelchair user needs to get on, but there is ALREADY another wheelchair in the space? Urgh.

Basically I just feel bad for anyone who is stuck having to deal with public transport. We had to for years and it's ****ing miserable.

It is is miserable which is why many don't use it despite encouragement from government etc to ease traffic problems, emissions etc but seemingly not putting in the funds to support this. I don't know what the answer is but pushchair users refusing to move for more entitled wheelchair users isn't it.

I also find it very hypocritical of pushchair users who rely on the goodwill of ordinary users to respect their need for the space, many expect it, but do not do the same for wheelchair users.

[Withano]

Theres space for at least 4 on my local buses, I've never encountered this problem. Are you sure its a problem?

[lime]

I don't think its as simple as to say parent and child/infant should be removed from bus and police called if they refuse to move...what if parent and child are on their way to a very important hospital appointment and wheelchair user is on their way to meet up with mates for a coffee.

Would people look at if differently if the child in buggy had a chronic illness and the wheelchair user had become dependent on wheelchair through years of injecting heroin?

My neighbour is a bus driver in Dublin city center and several times daily he picks up the same heroin addicts in wheelchairs ...they have their free travel pass which entitles them to travel with a companion...They spend the day travelling back and fort through the city asking other passengers to give them the bus fare and they will take them on as their travel companion...and for the most part people give them the money.

For the most part I think if the parent can sit the child on their lap and their journey is not vitaly important ..there is no excuse not to move and allow wheelchair user on.

[Kizzy]

When mine were little getting on a bus with the buggy up was not an option it was a struggle getting it up and down but it was possible.... how possible is it for a wheelchair user to fold their wheelchair down and walk it onto the bus?

I was discussing this with my son yesterday, he was disgusted they couldn't reach a compromise and the guy denied travel. I've been on buses where it's been dark, cold and raining and buggy users will let the bus go and wait for the next as the 2 buggy spaces were filled!.. it's crazy :/

[user104658]

The major issue you also have is that no one can be physically removed by the driver or others. You can't touch them. Therefore the only way to remove someone who physically won't get out of the space is to call the police there and then... who will likely take half an hour or longer to arrive (as it is not an emergency)... and so everyone else on the bus is late going to wherever they were going because they're waiting for police intervention.

[Kizzy]

And?... The initial incident no doubt took a while to sort out, sometimes the inconvenience of others comes second when it's reasonable and valid to do so

* support for strikers *

[user104658]

And?... The initial incident no doubt took a while to sort out, sometimes the inconvenience of others comes second when it's reasonable and valid to do so

* support for strikers *
It's not feasible. Public transport networks are a disgrace already (being late, leaving early, not showing up at all...) without adding constant delays.

Strike action is different in my opinion. It usually is known about in advance for people to make alternate arrangements. Unexpected hold ups like this can be disastrous for some people. For example, the bus I used to get to work before we were driving was the one that went on to the hospital. It is the ONLY public transport available to the hospital from here and runs only once every 2 hours. I was on it once when there was a delay (it ran out of fuel...). Luckily only about 2 miles away from my work at that point so walkable. But there was an elderly woman on the bus who was in a blind panic because she was going to miss her hospital appointment... And it can take weeks or even MONTHS to rearrange an appointment if you miss it, which for an elderly person whose health could easily decline in that time, is pretty drastic.

I'm afraid to say that I think reliability, timeliness and smooth operation of public transport at this point needs to come before any and all other considerations... Because the state of our buses and trains currently in that regard is a complete embarrassment.

[Vicky.]

I always folded my buggy if someone in a wheelchair got on. I can't imagine refusing to.

However, before I had kids I once saw a stand off between a whelchair user and someone with a very large buggy (honestly, it was like a tank) and from what I could gather, the pushchair was so big as it was a 'disability buggy' but the wheelchair user kept saying the mother should get off and eventually the mother explained whatever to the driver and he said to the wheelchair user that the child was disabled also. And the wheelchair user went a bit mental, stood up, folded their wheelchair up, stuffed it in the baggage bit, and went and sat on a normal chair :D

So yeah, its not always that straight forward.

Generally though, I do think people who refuse to fold prams for wheelchairs are twunts. Someone once had an EMPTY buggy in the pram space when I got on with Skye...she was a few months old and asleep and as he had no child in the pram I asked him to move...he argued the toss with me that it was 'inconvenient' to fold down the buggy then open it again at his stop...he was ON HIS WAY to pick a child up. What a ****ing dick. I told him this and he argued with me until the busdriver told him in no uncertain terms to move of get off the bus. What a douche...

We have James in a pushchair now if its going to be along walk as he tires out quite easily. I use the buggy spaces but if I see someone else waiting I will always put his down as he doesnt 'need' it as such. Even when they were younger I used to put mine down if someone wanted on who had a newborn or something as its a lot easier to shift a 6 month old than fanny about waking a newborn.

[Kizzy]

So instead of targeting the multi million in profit making organisation to improve their provision you feel the onus is on the service users to forgo their rights?

Well, ok.

[arista]

Theres space for at least 4 on my local buses, I've never encountered this problem. Are you sure its a problem?


Yes it went to Court taking
3 or 5 years , I think
The Judge Ruled Wheelchairs first


Some Mothers Refuse to Fold up their Chair
Eject them - I say


You maybe in a Zone
that is well liked.

Pop into Zones that are Packed
you will soon find a mother Taking
the wrong space
FACT

[Vicky.]

Go North east also..they have a thing where if a wheelchair user wants to get on and there is no space (this means another wheelchair user is on as far as I know, not someone refusing to move but I have never seen it in action as honestly, there aren't many wheelchair users that use buses) they will call a taxi and pay for it for them. Not perfect, but better than elsewhere

[Withano]

Yes it went to Court taking
3 or 5 years , I think
The Judge Ruled Wheelchairs first


Some Mothers Refuse to Fold up their Chair
Eject them - I say


You maybe in a Zone
that is well liked.

Pop into Zones that are Packed
you will soon find a mother Taking
the wrong space
FACT

But thats still only one time in the last however many years.. Compromises have always been made every other time it would seem?

[arista]

Yes Vicky
1 Wheelchair on the thats fine.

But a Mother REFUSING to move is EVIL
ref : Court Case
She Lost

[Kizzy]

Lots of wheelchair users use buses here, they 'kneel' as in dip a little, then a ramp is folded out.
Paying for a taxi is a lovely gesture, couldn't see firstbus ( main company operating in Leeds) doing that!

[Vicky.]

Yes Vicky
1 Wheelchair on the thats fine.

But a Mother REFUSING to move is EVIL
ref : Court Case
She Lost

Depends on the circumstances tbh. Would you say the mother in my post above was evil? The one with a disabled child in a large pram that did not move for another disabled person just because their child was younger than the other person (who it actually turned out, could sit on a normal chair)

[arista]

But thats still only one time in the last however many years.. Compromises have always been made every other time it would seem?



No its been loads of Cases

Debated Live all week
Ref : Ch5HD AM Live/ LBC / R4 /R5/itv This Morning/
LWHD./ SkyNewsHD / BBCnewsHD/ Ch4HD news
Ch5HD news

You must be in a Zone that is like a Bubble on it
with respect


Its only Years ago case because of the Problem
of Courts /Judges.


There can be many more now its illegal

[Kizzy]

Depends on the circumstances tbh. Would you say the mother in my post above was evil? The one with a disabled child in a large pram that did not move for another disabled person just because their child was younger than the other person (who it actually turned out, could sit on a normal chair)

That was one instance Vicky, and of course the onus is not on the disabled child to move, in that instance the outcome of the case would have been different.
It does not negate the need for protections for disabled persons using a service.

[Vicky.]

That was one instance Vicky, and of course the onus is not on the disabled child to move, in that instance the outcome of the case would have been different.
It does not negate the need for protections for disabled persons using a service.

Of course not. But noone knows the circumstances of another. I have quite strong views on this as I am apparently classed as disabled at the moment given my long history of pain issues and such. I was on a bus a few months back on my way to the pain clinic and some old woman got on and started bawling and shouting at me for sitting in the priority seats when I am 'a young fit woman' and apparently I was just lazy and so on. I was in so much pain that instead of standing my ground I broke down crying, and I never ****ing cry in public. Horrible old witch.

Edit. Come to think of it, I had that before too when heavily pregnant with Skye. Another old woman yelling at me because I didn't offer her a seat...even though I was obviously pregnant and the bus was filled so why zone in on me...

But yeah, I imagine some parents (not just mothers arista) are just selfish bastards who refuse to move. But again, as withano says, just how common is this problem? I never heard of it at all until this one case so its happened...once? It shouldn't happen at all, but this is hardly widespread.

[DemolitionRed]

You make some good points Vicky

I was on the disability key scheme when I was fighting cancer. This allowed me to access disabled toilets when I was out and about. You have this master key which fits into the lock of a disability toilet. There are plenty of none key disability toilets around and before I had cancer, I used to give dirty looks to non-disabled people using that service. I now realize that you don't have to look disabled to be disabled. We should never judge a book by its cover.

[Kizzy]

Of course not. But noone knows the circumstances of another. I have quite strong views on this as I am apparently classed as disabled at the moment given my long history of pain issues and such. I was on a bus a few months back on my way to the pain clinic and some old woman got on and started bawling and shouting at me for sitting in the priority seats when I am 'a young fit woman' and apparently I was just lazy and so on. I was in so much pain that instead of standing my ground I broke down crying, and I never ****ing cry in public. Horrible old witch.

Edit. Come to think of it, I had that before too when heavily pregnant with Skye. Another old woman yelling at me because I didn't offer her a seat...even though I was obviously pregnant and the bus was filled so why zone in on me...

But yeah, I imagine some parents (not just mothers arista) are just selfish bastards who refuse to move. But again, as withano says, just how common is this problem? I never heard of it at all until this one case so its happened...once? It shouldn't happen at all, but this is hardly widespread.

Aw Vicky :hug: what an ol hag :(

It won't be all that common no as in the majority of cases there will be some compromise made, I'm glad this was a point of principle though.

[Brillopad]

But thats still only one time in the last however many years.. Compromises have always been made every other time it would seem?

It isn't just one time, many wheelchair users have experienced this problem and whilst a film crew were covering the recent court action there was an incident of a young women in a wheelchair trying to get on a bus and an empty buggy was in the wheelchair space whilst the mother was upstairs with her children.

Another woman was getting quite gobby to the wheelchair user and telling her to hurry up as she was holding up the bus. Some other idiot shouted out that he was late for work - how uncomfortable that poor girl must have felt. The bus driver should have insisted the woman come and fold her buggy or put it out of the bus. Disgraceful.

So yes, as per your previous post, it is an issue for wheelchair users.

[Suze]

I hardly go on buses if it can be helped, but ALWAYS give my seat up to others more needy when the need is there, to me that is just the right thing to do. When my two boys were young, I would rarely take them on the bus when they were below school age as I could tuck them up snugly in their pram/pushchair and walk a distance instead.

As Vicky points out, there are different circumstances that dictate who should be prioritised on buses, and I feel bad for you Vicky :( having to put up with some who treated you like that on the buses. There do seem to be some mothers who seem to come in packs on buses and who go between 1 to 3 stops, a distance it seems they could probably easily have walked though.

[Brillopad]

I hardly go on buses if it can be helped, but ALWAYS give my seat up to others more needy when the need is there, to me that is just the right thing to do. When my two boys were young, I would rarely take them on the bus when they were below school age as I could tuck them up snugly in their pram/pushchair and walk a distance instead.

As Vicky points out, there are different circumstances that dictate who should be prioritised on buses, and I feel bad for you Vicky :( having to put up with some who treated you like that on the buses. There do seem to be some mothers who seem to come in packs on buses and who go between 1 to 3 stops, a distance it seems they could probably easily have walked though.

Unfortunately a lot of young mums today are lazy. They take things for granted and have a sense of entitlement, when actually they have no such entitlement. They should get over themselves and off their backsides. Those spaces were created for wheelchair users, not pushchairs.

[Withano]

It isn't just one time, many wheelchair users have experienced this problem and whilst a film crew were covering the recent court action there was an incident of a young women in a wheelchair trying to get on a bus and an empty buggy was in the wheelchair space whilst the mother was upstairs with her children.

Another woman was getting quite gobby to the wheelchair user and telling her to hurry up as she was holding up the bus. Some other idiot shouted out that he was late for work - how uncomfortable that poor girl must have felt. The bus driver should have insisted the woman come and fold her buggy or put it out of the bus. Disgraceful.

So yes, as per your previous post, it is an issue for wheelchair users.

I agree with you, Gob****es should be treated as such, priority space should be treated as such.. but a few examples in many years where this did not happen is the equivalant to about 0.001% of the time or less (actually way less than that doing the math), so I dont think a change is warranted. Its injustice, sure, and people will be punished.. I think thats the end of it, no? What more could anybody possibly suggest?

[Brillopad]

I agree with you, Gob****es should be treated as such, priority space should be treated as such.. but a few examples in many years where this did not happen is the equivalant to about 0.001% of the time or less (actually way less than that doing the math), so I dont think a change is warranted. Its injustice, sure, and people will be punished.. I think thats the end of it, no?

You think everyone who has this problem takes it to Court. Most just put up with it, but they shouldn't have to.

If you don't use a wheelchair then it isn't really your place to say a change isn't warranted. I would imagine those actually affected would disagree.

[Northern Monkey]

It's a tricky one.There is a bus route near me that i was on recently that is extremely busy at certain times.When i got on the whole bus was packed upstairs and downstairs.I had to stand and the driver kept letting people on.There was two pushchairs on and people standing front to back.If a wheelchair user had wanted to get on then half the people standing downstairs would've had to get off aswell as the mothers with pushchairs.So i think it should really depend on the circumstances.I don't think it's really workable to create strict rules on priority.It really should be left to common sense imo.

[Withano]

You think everyone who has this problem takes it to Court. Most just put up with it, but they shouldn't have to.

If you don't use a wheelchair then it isn't really your place to say a change isn't warranted. I would imagine those actually affected would disagree.

You have no idea whether I use a wheelchair or not, and thats irrelevant. Dont put it on a public forum if you only want opinions from a certain group of people. I agree with you they shouldnt have to, its a good thing that very close to 100% never will.

[Vicky.]

The only 'change' that would make sense, is to have a specific wheelchair bay that cannot under any circumstances be used by anyone not in a wheelchair. This means no cramming extra people on the bus as some drivers do, no buggies can use it ever, no little old ladies with their shopping trolly things...nothing. Even then you have the issue of, its being occupied by a wheelchair user and another wheelchair user needs to get on.

And of course, doing this would mean that even more often than already happens, buses would drive straight past you...not through choice but by necessity. Unless money will be put into the bus services to put on extra transport, which I doubt.

All in all, this case and the outcome won't change anything. Entitled asshats will continue to be entitled asshats whilst the option is there.

[Brillopad]

You have no idea whether I use a wheelchair or not, and thats irrelevant. Dont put it on a public forum if you only want opinions from a certain group of people. I agree with you they shouldnt have to, its a good thing that very close to 100% never will.

I did clearly say 'if you don't use a wheelchair' so no issue there then.

Good to hear you think hardly any disabled people experience this problem - nearly 100%. So you know better than the disabled themselves and the organisations supporting them. Reacon you do - not!

[Brillopad]

The only 'change' that would make sense, is to have a specific wheelchair bay that cannot under any circumstances be used by anyone not in a wheelchair. This means no cramming extra people on the bus as some drivers do, no buggies can use it ever, no little old ladies with their shopping trolly things...nothing. Even then you have the issue of, its being occupied by a wheelchair user and another wheelchair user needs to get on.

And of course, doing this would mean that even more often than already happens, buses would drive straight past you...not through choice but by necessity. Unless money will be put into the bus services to put on extra transport, which I doubt.

All in all, this case and the outcome won't change anything. Entitled asshats will continue to be entitled asshats whilst the option is there.

Maybe they could install a bar around the space to seal it off and that can only be accessed by a key which would be given to the wheelchair user when they get on the bus. That would stop all the ignorant idiots out there.

[Vicky.]

Maybe they could install a bar around the space to seal it off and that can only be accessed by a key which would be given to the wheelchair user when they get on the bus. That would stop all the ignorant idiots out there.

Yup indeed. A solution like this is an actual solution... But again, more funding needs to be given. Or prices need to rise again. Its already cheaper for 2 of us to get a taxi wherever we need to go than pay 2 bus tickets :laugh:

[Brillopad]

Yup indeed. A solution like this is an actual solution... But again, more funding needs to be given. Or prices need to rise again. Its already cheaper for 2 of us to get a taxi wherever we need to go than pay 2 bus tickets :laugh:

It is ridiculous - crap services for extortionate prices.

[DemolitionRed]

Yup indeed. A solution like this is an actual solution... But again, more funding needs to be given. Or prices need to rise again. Its already cheaper for 2 of us to get a taxi wherever we need to go than pay 2 bus tickets :laugh:

The problem is, unless its a London style taxi, most wheelchair users can't be accommodated, especially with the none fold up electric chairs.

[DemolitionRed]

It is ridiculous - crap services for extortionate prices.

Registered disabled are usually entitled to a free travel card which allows them to travel for free.

[Withano]

I did clearly say 'if you don't use a wheelchair' so no issue there then.

Good to hear you think hardly any disabled people experience this problem - nearly 100%. So you know better than the disabled themselves and the organisations supporting them. Reacon you do - not!

I used the stats you provided me to determine it was nearly 100%. Stop presuming things about my personal life to further an argument, its weird and severely weakens yours.

[Vicky.]

The problem is, unless its a London style taxi, most wheelchair users can't be accommodated, especially with the none fold up electric chairs.

Oh yes, its harder for those in wheelchairs to get around for sure.

The taxi moan was just me moaning about the ridiculous prices of bus travel these days :laugh: No way should a taxi be cheaper than TWO single fares to somewhere.

[Brillopad]

I used the stats you provided me to determine it was nearly 100%. Stop presuming things about my personal life to further an argument, its weird and severely weakens yours.

Ditto!

[Northern Monkey]

Maybe they could install a bar around the space to seal it off and that can only be accessed by a key which would be given to the wheelchair user when they get on the bus. That would stop all the ignorant idiots out there.

Instead of a key it could just scan their bus pass to unlock an electric lock.

The thing is though it could put pushchair users off using busses and drive(:laugh:) more of them to use cars.The green people wouldn't be happy about that.

[Brillopad]

Instead of a key it could just scan their bus pass to unlock an electric lock.

The thing is though it could put pushchair users off using busses and drive(:laugh:) more of them to use cars.The green people wouldn't be happy about that.

Yes scanning via their bus pass would be even better.

Thing is there are a lot of Chavs that use the buses - loud ignorant people who don't give a damn about others. These people are the most likely to refuse to move their pushchairs. I think that those that can drive will do so anyway.

[Kizzy]

Yes scanning via their bus pass would be even better.

Thing is there are a lot of Chavs that use the buses - loud ignorant people who don't give a damn about others. These people are the most likely to refuse to move their pushchairs. I think that those that can drive will do so anyway.

Ukippers?

[Withano]

Ukippers?

:joker: its funny cos all the loud ignorant chavs from my school turned into ukippers, so probably.

[Brillopad]

Ukippers?

Lefties on benefits who back parties who give them freebies - Corbyn.

[DemolitionRed]

Lefties on benefits who back parties who give them freebies - Corbyn.

Come off it!
You have to be quite politically minded to be a lefty :smug:

[Brillopad]

Come off it!
You have to be quite politically minded to be a lefty :smug:

Or someone who backs a party who promise them more by creating a more equal society. If you put nothing in, you get nothing back.

[Vicky.]

Lefties on benefits who back parties who give them freebies - Corbyn.

I know this is not what you meant, but this reads as if you are calling Corbyn a chav :D

Funnily enough..most 'chav'vy people I know are the very same who make a show of flying england flags, hate how the 'foreigners are stealing our jobs' and set their pitbulls onto people who look a little brown.

I guess chav means something different to you and me :S

[jaxie]

I think that those in a wheelchair should always be given precedence where space has been allocated for them but I wouldn't like to see young mothers turned off buses either. I think more clarity from the bus company perhaps. This is your space 'disabled' and this is yours 'mothers'.

[DemolitionRed]

Bus drivers are now obliged to stop, get off their arse and assist mothers with prams and people in wheelchairs.

Parents who regularly use public transport should consider appropriate pushchairs and prams for their children. Most prams come apart and pushchairs fold up. Babies are light and can be lifted out and held by a parent.

Someone in a wheelchair likely can't get out, can't fold up their chair and safely take a bus seat. Instead of legs that work, they are dependent on a machines so I agree with those who think wheelchairs should take priority.

[Brillopad]

I know this is not what you meant, but this reads as if you are calling Corbyn a chav :D

Funnily enough..most 'chav'vy people I know are the very same who make a show of flying england flags, hate how the 'foreigners are stealing our jobs' and set their pitbulls onto people who look a little brown.

I guess chav means something different to you and me :S

To me he is, although I was of corse referring to many of those who vote for him. In my opinion he would ruin our country if he got the chance. One of those who doesn't value our own culture and gives priority to the cultures of others with little concern for the long-term effects of his 'open-door policies' on the rest of this country.

Chav's in my book are mainly benefit claimants who make a career out of being unemployed. The are loud mouthed, rough, lazy and ignorant of others. Labour is historically more generous with handing out benefits than the Tories so therefore they are more popular with the chavs. People can often have a foot in both camps when agreeing/disagreeing with certain policies so they may or may not fly flags and set dogs on people. Chav's all the same.

[Brillopad]

Depends on the circumstances tbh. Would you say the mother in my post above was evil? The one with a disabled child in a large pram that did not move for another disabled person just because their child was younger than the other person (who it actually turned out, could sit on a normal chair)

I think the case of the mother with a disabled child is slightly different. However in general those with buggies, big heavy prams shouldn't be allowed on buses, should move when required to do so.

Also they should not be allowed to leave pushchairs in this space when they sit somewhere else on the bus. It should be folded and put in the luggage rack. If they want their own spaces then perhaps they should campaign by chaining themselves to buses, the way wheelchair users did.

They worked hard for those spaces and the spaces were designed specifically for them. Pushchair users have very selfishly hijacked them.

[Withano]

To me he is, although I was of corse referring to many of those who vote for him. In my opinion he would ruin our country if he got the chance. One of those who doesn't value our own culture and gives priority to the cultures of others with little concern for the long-term effects of his 'open-door policies' on the rest of this country.

Chav's in my book are mainly benefit claimants who make a career out of being unemployed. The are loud mouthed, rough, lazy and ignorant of others. Labour is historically more generous with handing out benefits than the Tories so therefore they are more popular with the chavs. People can often have a foot in both camps when agreeing/disagreeing with certain policies so they may or may not fly flags and set dogs on people. Chav's all the same.

^ chav stands for council house and violent. Obviously Corbyn does not fit the bill lol. I think to most the country, chavs are seen as UKIP/Britain First/EDL supporters.. You know, the sort of people who dont have jobs and therefore support the parties that blame other people for them not having jobs etc.. Labour is more middle class to me...

[Brillopad]

^ chav stands for council house and violent. Obviously Corbyn does not fit the bill lol. I think to most the country, chavs are seen as UKIP/Britain First/EDL supporters.. You know, the sort of people who dont have jobs and therefore support the parties that blame other people for them not having jobs etc.. Labour is more middle class to me...

Labour has never been middle-class - it has always been the party for the working class, originally with good intentions to create a fairer society.

Tories were more middle class and the lib-deems a mixture of both. This doesn't of course mean there isn't a mix of people in all parties but to call Labour a middle-class party is ridiculous.

[the truth]

It's a tough one though... what are the options? Let's say there is already a baby in a pram in the space and a wheelchair user needs to get on. You only have two options. Put the pram in the aisle unsecure (which is dangerous), or tell the people with the pram to then get OFF the bus, potentially miles from their destination AND miles from home.

The only solution, then, is to make wheelchair spaces strictly wheelchairs only, rather than "priority".

the mothers are discriminating against the disabled here. she refused to move despite having other places she could go, whereas the wheelchair user had no option but not to travel. lot of selfish pushy mothers out there, time to get them arrested for discrimination

[the truth]

Labour has never been middle-class - it has always been the party for the working class, originally with good intentions to create a fairer society.

Tories were more middle class and the lib-deems a mixture of both. This doesn't of course mean there isn't a mix of people in all parties but to call Labour a middle-class party is ridiculous.

used to be 60 yrs ago now theyre all for themselves a really disgusting party. I include corbyn in that too. a man who says hes kind and caring and considerate yet would soon run the economy bankrupt and sell us out to europe and destroy our safety

[Brillopad]

used to be 60 yrs ago now theyre all for themselves a really disgusting party. I include corbyn in that too. a man who says hes kind and caring and considerate yet would soon run the economy bankrupt and sell us out to europe and destroy our safety

I agree. The thought of him getting into power is pretty scary, although I'm sure someone would step in if he actually tried to get rid of our military forces and nuclear weapons.

I can't believe even he is naive enough to think if we totally disarmed everyone else would do the same and the world would become one happy little family. It would of course be the end of many of us and our country would be unreconisible. Stupid man.

[the truth]

I agree. The thought of him getting into power is pretty scary, although I'm sure someone would step in if he actually tried to get rid of our military forces and nuclear weapons.

I can't believe even he is naive enough to think if we totally disarmed everyone else would do the same and the world would become one happy little family. It would of course be the end of many of us and our country would be unreconisible. Stupid man.

this is a guy who wouldnt just bankrupt us , hed sell our sovereignty to europe, even though eh was against the EU for the previous 39 years? he lies about how awesome public sectors workers are, he lies about the NHS, he totally ignores the insane labour gp 2004 contract that allowed 90% of gp's to avoid all out of hours work, he ignores the fact most GP surgeries break this contract to stay open to 8pm, he ignores the mrsa rife under labour, he ignores the 2 million illegal immigrants, he ignores the 33000 terrorist murders across the globe and wants open borders, he ignores the fact population is up 10 million in 20 years and ignores the effect that has on our public services, he ignores the faact labour left us bankrupt, hed have his moronic ex lovers who hate their own country like dianne abbott in his cabinet, need I go on?

[Withano]

Labour has never been middle-class - it has always been the party for the working class, originally with good intentions to create a fairer society.

Tories were more middle class and the lib-deems a mixture of both. This doesn't of course mean there isn't a mix of people in all parties but to call Labour a middle-class party is ridiculous.

I mean, its obviously multitudes less ridiculous than the idea of labour, and Corbyn himself being chavvy. But I agree with the rest of the post to an extent.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't think current Labour are really working class anymore.Their values don't reflect the working class of today.They seem to more be aimed at middle class London hard left wingers.