Trans woman debate

[Kizzy]

This is a similar argument that saw Germaine Greer banned from a few speeches in the recent past.

I have to say, I agree with Jenni Murray on this...I see being female and being a woman different too. Of course the same would be true of F to M transitions, as being a man and male are different.

One is purely physical and the other shaped from birth via socialisation which cannot for me just be discredited, forgotten or rewritten.

Anyone disagree?




'Dame Jenni Murray has written of her fury over transgender women who claim the label of “real woman” despite being unschooled in sexual politics after years of living with male privilege.

Stating at the outset that “I am not transphobic or anti-trans” she said transgender women who have not grown up with the “gendered socialisation” faced by girls cannot claim the title.'


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/jenni-murray-transgender-real-women-sunday-times-magazine-womans-hour-a7612781.html

[Beso]

What makes that stupid cow think she is the oracle on what makes a women a women.

[Mystic Mock]

When the words man and woman were created I don't think that they was termed as personality traits tbf but more based on the anatomy of the individual.

[Withano]

Transgenders are mentally the opposing sex from as early as birth, which to me makes them just as female and just as womanly (or male and manly) as any cisgender. Being born cisgendered doesnt make you better at being that gender because of childhood experiences.

I dont see why this person emphasises physical differences, I dont think its a particularly relevant factor as far as gender is concerned.

Gender is entirely cognitive to me, if you wake up everyday feeling like a woman, then you are a woman, you are just as woman as anyone else who wakes up feeling the same way, their genitals are irrelevant.

[user104658]

Gender is entirely cognitive to me, if you wake up everyday feeling like a woman, then you are a woman, you are just as woman as anyone else who wakes up feeling the same way, their genitals are irrelevant.


This is the part I don't really understand, to be fair. What does "feeling like a woman" (or "feeling like a man", for that matter) actually feel like? Aren't there some huge, sweeping generalizations there? I'm pretty sure I just wake up feeling like myself. Occasionally something vaguely resembling human if I'm lucky.

[MTVN]

If you spend years living as a man having to suppress your true identity then I'm not sure you'd feel like you were enjoying the benefits of 'male privilege' that strongly

[Withano]

I'm pretty sure I just wake up feeling like myself

Well same, but we both know that we're men. If we were born with a vagina we wouldnt wake up this easy in our own bodies, we'd instead feel uncomfortable, out of place, and with a want to be seen the way we feel. We wouldnt wake up and be comfortable appearing the way we do right now, we wouldnt be fine with putting on jeans and trimming our beard, we'd want to appear differently to those around us. We wouldnt wake up feeling like ourself because we would see ourself in the wrong body. We'd wake up feeling like somebody else, somebody with the wrong sex. In any f2m transgenders case, they wake up feeling inherently like a female, but appearing like a male - we never have woke up this way, we never will wake up with an internal conflict in our heads, because we are accustom to seeing our thoughts and our bodies match. We wake up like ourself because we are ourselves in every way imaginable. Us (men) waking up and feeling like ourself (men) is waking up feeling like a man. An M2F transgender (man) wake up feeling like themselves (woman) does not

[Niamh.]

This is the part I don't really understand, to be fair. What does "feeling like a woman" (or "feeling like a man", for that matter) actually feel like? Aren't there some huge, sweeping generalizations there? I'm pretty sure I just wake up feeling like myself. Occasionally something vaguely resembling human if I'm lucky.

Yeah that's what I think too, is it being like the stereo types that go with each is? I don't think I'm the same as every other woman on the planet, I'm just a person trying to get on with s**t, I feel like me

[smudgie]

Very difficult.
IF every body had to have a label, then I suppose women have wombs and men don't, it's not that simple though as we are all made up of many parts, hormones, genes etc, and most of them are mixed up before we are even born.
People should be celebrated for whom they are, we are all different.

[DemolitionRed]

Nature can be cruel sometimes.

There's a big difference between cross dressers and even Trans who want to dress up in a frilly dress on a Saturday night and ponce around and a person who is serious enough to go through gender realignment.

The little girl who hates wearing girly things and wants to climb trees with the boys gets labbled a tomboy and its assumed she will grow out of it. The little boy who wants to wear feminine clothes and hang out with the other little girls quickly learns that this isn't the expected norm. But what happens to these kids when the hormones kick in. This is when these kids start to suffer from enormous sress and anxiety. Its these kids who often attempt or even succeed with suicide and if they do survive, they often get sectioned for their own safety.

My TG friend once said to me, " Imagine waking up tomorrow morning in the wrong body. That's how it was for me every single day" His brain was never that of a female but even with very liberal and accepting parents, the outside world who saw he had breasts and child bearing hips had expectations; to be anything other than female was considered freakish by a wide section of society. I have spent enough time with him over the years to know that he was always male; he was just born in the wrong body but that has now been corrected.

[Ronald.]

I've never met any transsexuals before . I saw that one on the telly on eastenders . Stacey's brother . He was nice and his story was touching. R.

[Vicky.]

Those buying the 'born in the wrong body' rhetoric are actually transphobic themselves. Thats how far this has gone.

I don't disagree with anything Murray says. I read this yesterday but didn't dare post it on here because...reasons

Sorry, I am still pretty old fashioned in that 'woman' to me means 'adult human female' and 'man' means 'adult human male'. I get that they have evolved into a 'feeling' these days. Woman can be masculine, or have surgery to look more like a male, and vice versa...but this does not alter the sex you actually are nor should it strip away protections based on that sex. Can anyone who says 'transwomen are women' define what a woman actually is for me please? A circular meaning doesn't work...as 'anyone who feels like a woman'...well, quite what are they feeling like? Its kinda like me saying 'a flobalob is a flobalob' 'but what IS a flobalob' 'its a flobalob'. Nonsense.

'Transgender' has a new meaning that not many people are aware of, meaning basically anyone can wake up one day and 'be' the opposite sex. Thats completely wrong and is a huge can of worms being opened right there. We already have had violent male prisoners locked up with females...this matter runs much deeper than the 'but its just loos!' argument.

Its not about those 'born in the wrong body' who suffer crippling dysphoria anymore. Its quite literally about anyone declaring themselves to be anything they say they are. Which is a dangerous road to go down. There is due to be a debate in parliament about allowing 'gender identity' to trump sex. I don't HAVE a 'gender identity' as I am missing this magical womanly essence (or a version of a soul...as it sounds?). I am going to be screwed eh...


Funnily enough, I know 2 transwomen in real life (both are post op) and both of those think the current day rhetoric is crazy.

[Vicky.]

I also ask, whats the difference between transgender and transracial. The second was horrendous, but the first is accepted without question. Are they really that different? If so...why?

For those not familiar with the trans-racial backlash... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/25/rachel-dolezal-not-going-stoop-apologise-grovel?CMP=share_btn_tw

About time people started speaking up and asking questions about this whole thing.

[Niamh.]

Those buying the 'born in the wrong body' rhetoric are actually transphobic themselves. thats how far this has gone.

I don't disagree with anything Murray says. I read this yesterday but didn't dare post it on here because...reasons

Sorry, I am still pretty old fashioned in that 'woman' to me means 'adult human female' and 'man' means 'adult human male'. I get that they have evolved into a 'feeling' these days. Woman can be masculine, or have surgery to look more like a male, and vice versa...but this does not alter the sex you actually are nor should it strip away protections based on that sex.

'Transgender' has a new meaning that not many people are aware of, meaning basically anyone can wake up one day and 'be' the opposite sex. Thats completely wrong and is a huge can of worms being opened right there. We already have had violent male prisoners locked up with females...this matter runs much deeper than the 'but its just loos!' argument.

Its not about those 'born in the wrong body' who suffer crippling dysphoria anymore. Its quite literally about anyone declaring themselves to be anything they say they are. Which is a dangerous road to go down.

Can anyone who says 'transwomen are women' define what a woman actually is for me please? A circular meaning doesn't work...as 'anyone who feels like a woman'...well, quite what are they feeling like?

Funnily enough, I know 2 transwomen in real life (both are post op) and both of those think the current day rhetoric is crazy.

Yeah that's a good question, I couldn't do it, I'm very much a believer in people as individuals. If you start trying to define what makes a woman a woman or a man a man you're just going to end up with the stereotypes I think and people aren't stereotypes

[Vicky.]

Yeah that's a good question, I couldn't do it, I'm very much a believer in people as individuals. If you start trying to define what makes a woman a woman or a man a man you're just going to end up with the stereotypes I think and people aren't stereotypes

The ONLY way to do it is by stereotypes. And we should be moving away from ****ing stereotypes. Jesus. Do we really want to be pushing the 'if you are feminine you actually ARE a woman' and vice versa? Really? This is harmful to everyone. be a feminine male, be a masculine female...have surgeries and hormones and get a haircut if that makes you feel better about yourself. but you cannot change sex. Sorry. And sex does matter in some areas of life..

[Vicky.]

Well same, but we both know that we're men. If we were born with a vagina we wouldnt wake up this easy in our own bodies, we'd instead feel uncomfortable, out of place, and with a want to be seen the way we feel. We wouldnt wake up and be comfortable appearing the way we do right now, we wouldnt be fine with putting on jeans and trimming our beard, we'd want to appear differently to those around us. We wouldnt wake up feeling like ourself because we would see ourself in the wrong body. We'd wake up feeling like somebody else, somebody with the wrong sex. In any f2m transgenders case, they wake up feeling inherently like a female, but appearing like a male - we never have woke up this way, we never will wake up with an internal conflict in our heads, because we are accustom to seeing our thoughts and our bodies match. We wake up like ourself because we are ourselves in every way imaginable. Us (men) waking up and feeling like ourself (men) is waking up feeling like a man. An M2F transgender (man) wake up feeling like themselves (woman) does not

Are you sure you wouldn't still wake up feeling like you but just happen to be a different sex? How can one POSSIBLY know what it feels like to be something other than what they are? It makes no sense.

How do you feel about the 'trans-abled'? again , I don't see how this is any different. Those who feel like their body isn't right, feel they should have been born without limbs/blind and have treatments to become that way....wheres the difference, really?

[Withano]

'Transgender' has a new meaning that not many people are aware of, meaning basically anyone can wake up one day and 'be' the opposite sex.

I'd probably argue that someone waking up "one day" and feeling that way was more bigender. Transgender is permanent and constant.




Funnily enough, I know 2 transwomen in real life (both are post op) and both of those think the current day rhetoric is crazy.

Do you consider them women? Men? Somewhere inbetween?

[Vicky.]

I'd probably argue that someone waking up "one day" and feeling that way was more bigender. Transgender is permanent and constant.



Do you consider them women? Men? Somewhere inbetween?

I consider them...transwomen? So I guess somewhere in the middle.

[Withano]

How can one POSSIBLY know what it feels like to be something other than what they are? It makes no sense.
?

A couple hundred thousand case studies, and the backing of psychological and scientific communities are evidence for me.

I grew up with an m2f transgender person - wasnt close to them, but watched them play with dolls at like 4, grow their hair out at like 9, started dressing as a female on weekends at 14ish and started dressing as a female inside school shortly after

I simply refuse to believe this person ever woke up feeling the way that their naked body looked. I think they always knew they wasnt what they are, and I hope they can live the rest of their life appearing the way they see themselves without the discrimination of others.

I dont know anything about other types of trans', I'd struggle to comment on it

[Niamh.]

A couple hundred thousand case studies, and the backing of psychological and scientific communities are evidence for me.

I grew up with an m2f transgender person - wasnt close to them, but watched them play with dolls at like 4, grow their hair out at like 9, started dressing as a female on weekends at 14ish and started dressing as a female inside school shortly after

I simply refuse to believe this person ever woke up feeling the way that their naked body looked. I think they always knew they wasnt what they are, and I hope they can live the rest of their life appearing the way they see themselves without the discrimination of others.

I dont know anything about other types of trans', I'd struggle to comment on it

That's basically playing into the whole stereotype s**t though

[Vicky.]

A couple hundred thousand case studies, and the backing of psychological and scientific communities are evidence for me.

I grew up with an m2f transgender person - wasnt close to them, but watched them play with dolls at like 4, grow their hair out at like 9, started dressing as a female on weekends at 14ish and started dressing as a female inside school shortly after

I simply refuse to believe this person ever woke up feeling the way that their naked body looked. I think they always knew they wasnt what they are, and I hope they can live the rest of their life appearing the way they see themselves without the discrimination of others.

I dont know anything about other types of trans', I'd struggle to comment on it
Stereotypes...what does liking playing with dolls have to do with liking how your naked body looks? I hated dolls and everything girly and still do in the most part. What does this make me?

This would make that person a male who likes stereotypically girly interests/style/whatever. It does not make them the opposite sex?

[Withano]

That's basically playing into the whole stereotype s**t though

I don't know any non-stereotypical transgenders. I'd imagine that they would have never felt the way their naked body looked either

[Vicky.]

I don't know any non-stereotypical transgenders. I'd imagine that they would have never felt the way their naked body looked either

Genuine question...do many people? I don't know many who do/seem to. I don't see how even an extreme version of this self hatred is any different to the likes of Body dysmorphic disorder.

[Withano]

Stereotypes...what does liking playing with dolls have to do with liking how your naked body looks? I hated dolls and everything girly and still do in the most part. What does this make me?

This would make that person a male who likes stereotypically girly interests/style/whatever. It does not make them the opposite sex?

No youre getting too hung up on the only personal example I have

Having a constant feeling that you are in the wrong body is transgender to me, I believe that this definition fits the only example I have - and every other transgender person.

[Niamh.]

I don't know any non-stereotypical transgenders. I'd imagine that they would have never felt the way their naked body looked either

Ugh this topic is such a mine field, I'm half afraid to post what I actually think for fear of offending people. I have massess of sympathy for transgender people, i really do, what a horrendous way to feel about yourself but I wonder sometimes is it this whole business of stereotyping that contributes to making them feel how they do?

[Withano]

Genuine question...do many people? I don't know many who do/seem to. I don't see how even an extreme version of this self hatred is any different to the likes of Body dysmorphic disorder.

Obviously body dysmophic disorder is different to transgender.. that was almost painful for me to read.

[Vicky.]

No youre getting too hung up on the only personal example I have

Having a constant feeling that you are in the wrong body is transgender to me, I believe that this definition fits the only example I have - and every other transgender person.

Well no, because nearly every story I have heard/read is exactly the same. Except for the late transitioning males like Jenner who were actually turned on by putting on their daughters underwear..of course. Those are in a different league...

[Vicky.]

Obviously body dysmophic disorder is different to transgender.. that was almost painful for me to read.

How is it? please explain to me as I don't see the difference?!

[Vicky.]

Ugh this topic is such a mine field, I'm half afraid to post what I actually think for fear of offending people. I have massess of sympathy for transgender people, i really do, what a horrendous way to feel about yourself but I wonder sometimes is it this whole business of stereotyping that contributes to making them feel how they do?

bingo...

[Niamh.]

Obviously body dysmophic disorder is different to transgender.. that was almost painful for me to read.

Comments like this are the reason why people may be afraid to talk about this subject. It's not obvious at all Withano, it seems very similar infact

[Withano]

How is it? please explain to me as I don't see the difference?!

A short summary of both would be
One disliking the way that they look - more visual/emotional
One disliking the way that they are - more cognitive

A body dysmophic person doesnt think they are a good looking person in a bad looking persons body.
A transgender person sees an accurate representation of the way that they look


Well no, because nearly every story I have heard/read is exactly the same. Except for the late transitioning males like Jenner who were actually turned on by putting on their daughters underwear..of course. Those are in a different league...

I know reddit isnt a real reference, but these are some real experiences that transwomen have which suggest that not all like barbies and long blonde hair, one described themselves as a stereotypical dyke - which although distasteful, it kinda blew my mind, even I with my moral outrage rarely think of them being lesbians https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransgender/comments/3bce07/transgender_women_do_any_of_you_consider_yourself/

[Withano]

Comments like this are the reason why people may be afraid to talk about this subject. It's not obvious at all Withano, it seems very similar infact

Sorry, i just sort of think comments like that create a negative stigma (for both very real communities) which hinder any progress.. both communities are suffering everyday and people saying to them 'eh, isnt that just this, did i just solve all your issues?' Is just a bit tactless fir me. that sort of comment isnt an uncommon misconception which makes it upsetting for me to read. I didnt mean it as a put down, I was genuinely explaining how I personally felt reading it.

[Niamh.]

Sorry, i just sort of think comments like that create a negative stigma (for both very real communities) which hinder any progress.. that sort of comment isnt an uncommon misconception which makes it upsetting for me to read. I didnt mean it as a put down, I was genuinely explaining how I personally felt reading it.

I don't think Vicky means it to come across as negative and I wouldn't either. Like I already said, I have masses of sympathy for anyone in this situation, it must be really awful, I guess when I try to think about myself and try to put myself in this situation, I, like Vicky, always get stuck on the "what it feels like to be a woman" other than the physical differences and i can't think of anything that makes me feel like a woman, I guess besides how people treat me I suppose but that's not me though, that's other people treating me a certain way because of my physical appearance

[King Gizzard]

be who you want

[Ronald.]

be who you want

Couldn't have put it better myself . R.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Dame Jenni Murray has written of her fury over transgender women who claim the label of “real woman”

ok who specifically are we talking about here?

which women, what are their names?

[Vicky.]

Dame Jenni Murray has written of her fury over transgender women who claim the label of “real woman”

ok who specifically are we talking about here?

which women, what are their names?

Here is one fairly prominent one
http://www.daniellemuscato.com/

Again, depends on your meaning of transwoman though doesn't it. My understanding of it until recently was someone who had 'transitioned' so to speak, meaning had SRS or is planning it (seriously, not as a new whim thing).

But I mean...if we are to take this 'you are whatever you say you are' and 'its nothing to do with sex stereotypes' to its logical conclusion, then Danielle is indeed as much a woman as a female person and it is bigoted to say anything but? I actually used to think Danielle was a parody...however there are more and more people like 'her'. There are actually 'transwomen' out there telling lesbians that they are bigoted for not wanting penis. And so on.

[Vicky.]

A short summary of both would be
One disliking the way that they look - more visual/emotional
One disliking the way that they are - more cognitive

A body dysmophic person doesnt think they are a good looking person in a bad looking persons body.
A transgender person sees an accurate representation of the way that they look




It was actually painful for someone to mistake the two? I wonder if BDD was the disorder I was looking for in this case...a friend of mine had multiple plastic surgeries to 'fix' herself when she didn't need to. It became an obsession. She thought she was 'wrong' the way she looked. I actually thought this was BDD. Kind of like Lea from BB7. Basically, IMO both are cases of people hating perfectly normal bodies to the point of being in severe distress and having various surgeries to 'fix' them.

Again, what are your thoughts on trans-abled people? Surely thats exactly the same as transgender?

Directing me to reddit is not a good idea :laugh: After I formed my opinions on this, I was directed to reddit a lot to try and prove me wrong and thats where I discovered how it really was NOT rare for transwomen to feel lesbians were 'transphobic' for not sucking their 'ladydicks' and such. Its where I discovered the phenomena of many many transwomen who realised they were trans after curiously trying on their teenage daughters panties and discovering doing so gave them an erection...and so on. So yeah, while trying to get AWAY from whats claimed to be 'extremists' in this case, reddit is really not the place to send people :p

[RichardG]

Here is one fairly prominent one
http://www.daniellemuscato.com/

Again, depends on your meaning of transwoman though doesn't it. My understanding of it until recently was someone who had 'transitioned' so to speak, meaning had SRS or is planning it (seriously, not as a new whim thing).

But I mean...if we are to take this 'you are whatever you say you are' and 'its nothing to do with sex stereotypes' to its logical conclusion, then Danielle is indeed as much a woman as a female person and it is bigoted to say anything but? I actually used to think Danielle was a parody...however there are more and more people like 'her'. There are actually 'transwomen' out there telling lesbians that they are bigoted for not wanting penis. And so on.

welp i was scrolling through all the pages of that site trying to find the woman, it took me like two minutes to realise :shame:

[Vicky.]

welp i was scrolling through all the pages of that site trying to find the woman, it took me like two minutes to realise :shame:

https://www.mumsnet.com/uploads/talk/201612/large-570854-image1.jpg

[RichardG]

she could at least shave the beard

[Vicky.]

Its not about stereotypes though is it? Nothing to do with looks, biology or anything. SOLELY a 'feeling' that you are a woman? Isn't this the current line?

[RichardG]

if you say so

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/im/2Y2CNxk.jpg

[Vicky.]

Indeed :p

[thesheriff443]

All human embryos start out as female they only change to a male after several weeks if dna changes happen.
For me this is a link between people feeling they are born in the wrong body.
Treat others as you want to be treated and you wont go wrong.

[Vicky.]

All human embryos start out as female they only change to a male after several weeks if dna changes happen.
For me this is a link between people feeling they are born in the wrong body.
Treat others as you want to be treated and you wont go wrong.

Nice enough thought, but it goes a bit deeper than that. In some areas, sex does actually matter over dress sense and feelings. For example...do you think there is a need for prisons to be separated into male and female. if not, why not? If so, how can we get around the issue of needing sex segregation for whatever reason, whilst still looking after the 'feelings' of the person who feels the opposite sex but is not?

Treat others as you wish to be treated, let people wear what they like without prejudice, look however they like, have whatever surgery they like...agreed. But sex kind of does matter.

[thesheriff443]

Nice enough thought, but it goes a bit deeper than that. In some areas, sex does actually matter over dress sense and feelings. For example...do you think there is a need for prisons to be separated into male and female. if not, why not? If so, how can we get around the issue of needing sex segregation for whatever reason, whilst still looking after the 'feelings' of the person who feels the opposite sex but is not?

Treat others as you wish to be treated, let people wear what they like without prejudice, look however they like, have whatever surgery they like...agreed. But sex kind of does matter.

Humans make the rules and laws and some of these rules and laws are based on a persons sex based on weather they where born male or female.

Life is deep and complicated, I have an opinion but having an opinion does not count for much.

[DemolitionRed]

Nobody chooses to be transgender. People who do go through the transition do so to feel more like their true self. How can we say they aren’t real women or real men when gender is more complicated than being man or woman.

As for stereotyping, everyone is put in boxes by their families, their religion, by society even by our own bodies. Gender has always been considered a fact, immutable, but we now know its more fluid, complex and mysterious and not just about the genitalia we were born with.

Why should a male who has transitioned to become a female accept she should be known as transgender? This wasn’t some flippant decision; it’s a huge life changing decision and its such a public thing it has to be terrifying. When my male friend started uni, on his signing in day a woman called out his name and then loudly declared that she’d made a mistake because they thought he was a boy, not a girl. The truth is, he couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without someone noticing and so during the transitioning process his life was full of stares, sniggers and whispers. I can’t imagine how hard that must have been, can you?

As far as I'm concerned he's all 'man' and he's a ****ing hero.

[Vicky.]

Demolition...what is your definition of man/woman?

Yes, gender is more complicated than sex. Because gender...is all in ones head.

[Vicky.]

Why should a male who has transitioned to become a female accept she should be known as transgender? This wasn’t some flippant decision; it’s a huge life changing decision and its such a public thing it has to be terrifying. When my male friend started uni, on his signing in day a woman called out his name and then loudly declared that she’d made a mistake because they thought he was a boy, not a girl. The truth is, he couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without someone noticing and so during the transitioning process his life was full of stares, sniggers and whispers. I can’t imagine how hard that must have been, can you?

As far as I'm concerned he's all 'man' and he's a ****ing hero.

You kind of lost me here?

[Vicky.]

Ohh I get it. Your 'male' friend is a transman? So now, male and female mean nothing aswell as man and woman? So confusing.

I do get where you are coming from, but deliberately blurring sex/gender is not helpful in any discussion :laugh: Also your friend sounds to be transsexual, not transgender. There is a huge difference.



Edit. Sorry if this post comes across as harsh, just read back and the tone is not how I intended at all but I am arguing with a friend who is trying to tell me that transgender people are actually born as the sex that they wish they were, science is wrong, males and females are no different in any way and that the dick can indeed be a female organ and we should accept that whilst declaring that lesbians should not reject a partner based on their biological sex but gay men can and should?! Bizarre argument thats riling me somewhat.

[DemolitionRed]

You kind of lost me here?

The uni thought he was a boy because of his name but when they called him out they thought he was a girl and so apologized.

I see him as the person he wants me to see him as which is a man. I knew him when he was a miserable wretched female and believe me, she wasn't good company but he's happy now that he looks and feels like a man. His looks and his feelings about how he looks and how he's received were very important to him. Its about being accepted, not as a trans, not by his sympathisers but by society as a whole.

[Scarlett.]

Yeah that's what I think too, is it being like the stereo types that go with each is? I don't think I'm the same as every other woman on the planet, I'm just a person trying to get on with s**t, I feel like me

Well, that's good for you, you feel normal and you feel like you. Trans people don't.

[Vicky.]

Well, that's good for you, you feel normal and you feel like you. Trans people don't.

By definition, Niamh not 'feeling like a woman' actually makes her trans...along with maybe 90% of the population if we are to take this sexed internal essence meaning of course...I can't imagine many (if any) 'feel like' their sex rather than just feel like themselves.

[Vicky.]

The uni thought he was a boy because of his name but when they called him out they thought he was a girl and so apologized.

I see him as the person he wants me to see him as which is a man. I knew him when he was a miserable wretched female and believe me, she wasn't good company but he's happy now that he looks and feels like a man. His looks and his feelings about how he looks and how he's received were very important to him. Its about being accepted, not as a trans, not by his sympathisers but by society as a whole.

Thank you for explaining.

[Niamh.]

Well, that's good for you, you feel normal and you feel like you. Trans people don't.

There's no need to have an attitude Chewy, I'm just trying to understand what feeling like a woman and not a man actually means besides the physical side and how you are treated because of the physical side

[Scarlett.]

By definition, Niamh not 'feeling like a woman' actually makes her trans...along with maybe 90% of the population if we are to take this sexed internal essence meaning of course...I can't imagine many (if any) 'feel like' their sex rather than just feel like themselves.

That's just simplifying the problem down, trans people don't feel like they belong in their body, I'm pretty sure we all feel at home in our own bodies, even if we don't 'feel like a man/woman' we feel like ourselves.

[Scarlett.]

There's no need to have an attitude Chewy, I'm just trying to understand what feeling like a woman and not a man actually means besides the physical side and how you are treated because of the physical side

Sorry Niamh, didn't mean to come across as like that :)

[Vicky.]

That's just simplifying the problem down, trans people don't feel like they belong in their body, I'm pretty sure we all feel at home in our own bodies, even if we don't 'feel like a man/woman' we feel like ourselves.

This is transphobic...according to a boatload of people. Most who 'identify' as transgender.

But, not feeling happy in your body does not mean you are the opposite sex. I am not happy in my body. I ALSO do not have this womanly essence. I cannot know if I feel like a man though, as I am not one. you cannot 'feel like' something you do not know...

What are your thoughts on trans-abled people and also trans-racial...out of interest?

[DemolitionRed]

Demolition...what is your definition of man/woman?

.

If we want to start comparing grey matter, hemispheres and the male versus female hippocampus then we can conclude some radical differences between male and female but those studies are rather complex so lets not! What about psychological traits between the sexes though.... Just a small example is, women are much better at emotional interpretation than men and men tend to be better at reasoning than women. Males process perception differently to women; whilst females are more likely to listen to their intuition without any conscious or rational process, men are more likely to rationalize. Women cope with stress far differently than men do and a woman’s thought process tends to become impaired when under stress where as a male’s thought process becomes more enhanced and so it goes on and on and on.

There are some very marked differences between men and women. Some of that comes from the lobes of the brain (something trans people can't change) and other traits come from our abundance of different hormones.

Lets look at a hermaphrodite (a person born with both 46-XY and 46-XX chromosomes). Should he/she? tell others that he/she a hermaphrodite? keep in mind that a lot of hermaphrodites don't have surgery.

[Vicky.]

If we want to start comparing grey matter, hemispheres and the male versus female hippocampus then we can conclude some radical differences between male and female but those studies are rather complex so lets not! What about psychological traits between the sexes though.... Just a small example is, women are much better at emotional interpretation than men and men tend to be better at reasoning than women. Men and females process perception differently to women; whilst females are more likely to listen to their intuition without any conscious or rational process, men are more likely to rationalize. Women cope with stress far differently than men do and a woman’s thought process tends to become impaired when under stress where as a male’s thought process becomes more enhanced and so it goes on and on and on.

There are some very marked differences between men and women. Some of that comes from the lobes of the brain (something trans people can't change) and other traits come from our abundance of different hormones.

Lets look at a hermaphrodite (a person born with both 46-XY and 46-XX chromosomes). Should he/she? tell others that he/she a hermaphrodite? keep in mind that a lot of hermaphrodites don't have surgery.
What is your definition of man/woman?

This has nothing to do with hermaphrodites. Nor brain differences (on which science is still out, I am afraid. No conclusive data either way for male or female brains)

[DemolitionRed]

I just edited what you quoted !!

[Scarlett.]

This is transphobic...according to a boatload of people. Most who 'identify' as transgender.

But, not feeling happy in your body does not mean you are the opposite sex. I am not happy in my body. I ALSO do not have this womanly essence. I cannot know if I feel like a man though, as I am not one. you cannot 'feel like' something you do not know...

What are your thoughts on trans-abled people and also trans-racial...out of interest?

It's transphobic only according to the Tumblr crowd, who make it their job to be offended by every term imaginable, they're the crowd who like to make it hard to discuss things like this.

I can't speak for transgendered people, but I've known one or two, and they just seem like they find it more comfortable living as a female than a male, they feel more at peace with themselves as it were.

Trans-abled and trans-racial seem like the sort of label that Tumblr comes up with, they make a mockery of real conditions that people have.

[Vicky.]

I just edited what you quoted !!

Still doesn't answer..

[Vicky.]

It's transphobic only according to the Tumblr crowd, who make it their job to be offended by every term imaginable, they're the crowd who like to make it hard to discuss things like this.

I can't speak for transgendered people, but I've known one or two, and they just seem like they find it more comfortable living as a female than a male, they feel more at peace with themselves as it were.

Trans-abled and trans-racial seem like the sort of label that Tumblr comes up with, they make a mockery of real conditions that people have.

No...they are a very very real thing.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/01/25/can-you-be-transabled-meet-the-people-trapped-in-their-working-bodies/

What is 'living as male/female'? Stereotypical stuff/appearance?

[DemolitionRed]

What is your definition of man/woman?

This has nothing to do with hermaphrodites. Nor brain differences (on which science is still out, I am afraid. No conclusive data either way for male or female brains)

I disagree. Much to do with the brain is inconclusive and we probably won't know anything conclusively in our lifetime. Grey and white matter is not an easy thing to study.

Even when it comes to female sexuality, its only very recently that human biologists discovered the female clitoris is in fact a lot bigger than previously thought. We are discovering things all the time. In reality though, its a lot more complicated than just our sexual genitalia

[Withano]

Weird question Vicky, but if you woke up with a stubbly beard, no tits, chest hair and a penis, would you feel like yourself, would you look in te mirror and still feel like yourself? Still see yourself? Or would you feel as if you were yourself in the wrong body? Do you feel like you could get used to it, or do you feel like it might feel worse and worse to look like that for the rest of your life? Would you still dress like a female, would you shave your beard and apply makeup so people see you as female?

[Scarlett.]

No...they are a very very real thing.

What is 'living as male/female'? Stereotypical stuff/appearance?

The difference between race and gender is, race is cultural, gender is biological, you can't be born white and say "well actually I feel Chinese" because you aren't, Chinese is a cultural thing, something that is learned after you have been born. Gender is different, as it more about how the chemicals in your body make you feel, you can feel wrong in your own body, thanks to how your own body works. I can't say I fully understand it all myself, but if people are willing to under go gender realignment surgery, something that is generally for the most part irreversible, they must be pretty damn serious about how they feel.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I guess the whole debate lacks scientific research and so people can just say things and get away with it.

[Vicky.]

Weird question Vicky, but if you woke up with a stubbly beard, no tits, chest hair and a penis, would you feel like yourself, would you look in te mirror and still feel like yourself? Still see yourself? Or would you feel as if you were yourself in the wrong body? Do you feel like you could get used to it, or do you feel like it might feel worse and worse to look like that for the rest of your life?

Its not waking up one morning though, its being born that way. You have no frame of reference? In this thought experiment, I know what it is like to have a female body, and also a male body. Trans people do not.

To answer though..I could get used to it pretty quickly I think.

[DemolitionRed]

Still doesn't answer..

Excuse me! I do have other things to do instead and of hovering over this thread all afternoon. I gave you an answer when I had time. Patience is a virtue!

[Vicky.]

I disagree. Much to do with the brain is inconclusive and we probably won't know anything conclusively in our lifetime. Grey and white matter is not an easy thing to study.

Even when it comes to female sexuality, its only very recently that human biologists discovered the female clitoris is in fact a lot bigger than previously thought. We are discovering things all the time. In reality though, its a lot more complicated than just our sexual genitalia

So...what are your definitions of man and woman?!

All of this is very interesting, but words have to actually mean something? If we cannot say what a woman actually IS, how can anyone 'identify' as one? :suspect:

[Vicky.]

Excuse me! I do have other things to do instead and of hovering over this thread all afternoon. I gave you an answer when I had time. Patience is a virtue!

You seemingly have time to go into brain differences, hormones and hermaphrodites though? :p There has not been an actual answer given to the question

Edit. OH. I meant the edit still doesnt answer the question...I see now that came across wrong.

[Withano]

To answer though..I could get used to it pretty quickly I think.

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

[Vicky.]

The difference between race and gender is, race is cultural, gender is biological, you can't be born white and say "well actually I feel Chinese" because you aren't, Chinese is a cultural thing, something that is learned after you have been born. Gender is different, as it more about how the chemicals in your body make you feel, you can feel wrong in your own body, thanks to how your own body works. I can't say I fully understand it all myself, but if people are willing to under go gender realignment surgery, something that is generally for the most part irreversible, they must be pretty damn serious about how they feel.

Surely you can equally say...you can't be born male and say 'well actually I feel female' because you aren't? :suspect: I would argue that femininity and masculinity are what is learnt after birth. And in such, 'gender' is actually masculinity or femininity rather than sex :shrug:

[Vicky.]

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?


Edit. Ahh you were meaning gender as in sex. Mixing them up again. Well...not really. I AM the sex I am...thats kind of it. Only time I have ever 'felt female' was when giving birth, breastfeeding and such.

This gender/sex mixup thing confuses me as I thought til last year that they both meant the same thing and that gender was just a polite way of saying sex :hehe:

[Withano]

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?

Just try and imagine a world where people think differently to this, and they do. Im not male because I like blue and I have a killer beard, I'm male because I would feel uncomfortable in my own skin if I had a vagina tomorrow, I wouldnt want to visit female bathrooms, I wouldnt want to appear female - I would want to continue to act like myself (which is far from the stereotypical male) and I would struggle to do that if I was to look in the mirror and see something which doesnt even closely resemble how I inherently feel.

[Vicky.]

Just try and imagine a world where people think differently to this, and they do. Im not male because I like blue and I have a killer beard, I'm male because I would feel uncomfortable in my own skin if I had a vagina tomorrow, I wouldnt want to visit female bathrooms, I wouldnt want to appear female - I would want to continue to act like myself (which is far from the stereotypical male) and I would struggle to do that if I was to look in the mirror and see something which doesnt even closely resemble how I inherently feel.

OK. So if its nothing to do with liking blue and having a beard, why do (most) transgender people say that they 'knew' when they realized they liked trucks instead of dolls as a kid..when they didn't want to wear dresses. Why do transwomen grow out their hair long and start wearing dresses. If stereotypical things are nothing to do with it? I actually do want to understand as I can't make sense of it.

As taking sex dysphoria out of the equation...there is really nothing left.

[Vicky.]

Wait. Are you taking transwoman/man to mean someone who has had (or seriously plans to) have SRS? If so..I think we might be on the same ****ing page anyway :facepalm:

This does not represent the majority of trans gender people though. The huge majority have no plans for SRS or anything and don't even suffer sex dysphoria :S these are the ones I can make no sense of

Edit again. I have totally brainfarted and lost my train of thought as having so many convos at once. Going in the bath then trying to sort this out. Ugh.

[Saph]

I dont really get why some people think they have the right to tell others how they should or shouldnt be/feel.. being part of a younger generation, stuff like transgenders arent really a big deal, its just how some people are.. In 20/30 years time i'm pretty sure it will just be the norm

its a shame that people like caitlyn jenner make it look like a quick overnight decision, i'm sure its a huge mental stress for most trans people. Imagine waking up tomorrow as the opposite gender to what you are now, you'd know that it wasnt right and wasnt 'you', thats how they wouldve felt everyday of their lives

[arista]

"Going in the bath then trying to sort this out. Ugh. "


How Nice Vicky

[Vicky.]

Right yeah I was getting debates mixed up as I thought :laugh:

In short..I agree with Jenni.

I cannot come up with any definition for 'woman' that would involve transwomen. Nor the same for man/transman. The only separation I can go on is biological sex. Still willing to hear others views though :p

And I still do not think 'trans' can exist without sex dysphoria. So those who do not suffer sex dysphoria yet claim to be trans (eg, Danielle Muscato...anyone who believes in 'lady dick') have ulterior motives and are co-opting the struggles of transsexual people. And are just enforcing rigid sex stereotypes that we need to move the **** away from

I would loved to go back to being a good little liberal on this topic. I really would. But honestly, it will end very very badly for females. Won't affect males as much..but could still cause damage somewhere along the line.

[arista]

"In short..I agree with Jenni."


Yes I think many of us do,
Vicky

[Withano]

OK. So if its nothing to do with liking blue and having a beard, why do (most) transgender people say that they 'knew' when they realized they liked trucks instead of dolls as a kid..when they didn't want to wear dresses. Why do transwomen grow out their hair long and start wearing dresses. If stereotypical things are nothing to do with it? I actually do want to understand as I can't make sense of it.

As taking sex dysphoria out of the equation...there is really nothing left.

I mean, I did send you a link full of real transgender people claiming that this is not at all reflective of their experience, you dismissed it.
But I guess a lot of transgender people perform in stereotypical ways in attempt to appear to themselves and others around them in the way that they inherently feel, a bit like a lot of cisgendered females. Off the top of my head, this might be for comfort, for over compersation, in an attempt to avoid discrimination or bullying, so they can go shopping/bathroom without uncomfortable glares, because they want to appear similarly to those they admire. Etc etc, probably lots of various reasons to each person.
Not all transgender women wear dresses and avoid playing with trucks, I think thats an important milestone for you to understand in this debate.
I cant imagine there would be any significant difference between the ratio of transgender and cisgender women who act in these stereotypically feminine ways.

[Vicky.]

I mean, I did send you a link full of real transgender people claiming that this is not at all reflective of their experience, you dismissed it.
But I guess a lot of transgender people perform in stereotypical ways in attempt to appear to themselves and others around them in the way that they inherently feel, a bit like a lot of cisgendered females. Off the top of my head, this might be for comfort, for over compersation, in an attempt to avoid discrimination or bullying, so they can go shopping/bathroom without uncomfortable glares, because they want to appear similarly to those they admire.
Not all transgender women wear dresses and avoid playing with trucks, I think thats an important milestone for you to understand in this debate.
I cant imagine there would be any significant difference between the ratio of transgender and cisgender women who act in these stereotypically feminine ways.

I understand this...no need to be so patronizing. Most though, outside of your one reddit thread (I could come up with a dozen threads on reddit about how they do conform to stereotypes btw...these kind of links are usually rubbished on here :shrug: ) appear to 'perform femininity'...not 'be women'. Prominent transwomen especially.

[Withano]

I understand this...no need to be so patronizing. Most though, outside of your one reddit thread (I could come up with a dozen threads on reddit about how they do conform to stereotypes btw...these kind of links are usually rubbished on here :shrug: ) appear to 'perform femininity'...not 'be women'. Prominent transwomen especially.

I really wasnt being patronising. Sorry it came off that way. But you have painted with that brush a lot in this thread and I dont think its relevant. Most cisgendered and transgendered females want to appear feminine. There are some that do not.
Using the stereotypical transwoman to disregard them all doesnt add up.

[Vicky.]

I really wasnt being patronising. Sorry it came off that way. But you have painted with that brush a lot in this thread and I dont think its relevant. Most cisgendered and transgendered females want to appear feminine. There are some that do not.
Using the stereotypical transwoman to disregard them all doesnt add up.

I am not trying to disregard them all? I am trying to disregard those who do not actually suffer sex dysphoria, yet claim to be trans. BIG difference.

[Withano]

I am not trying to disregard them all? I am trying to disregard those who do not actually suffer sex dysphoria, yet claim to be trans. BIG difference.

Do you have reason to believe that this happens frequently/at all aside from there being a lot of stereotypically feminine trans? Because I think thats where we're disagreeing. I can't imagine the ratio of stereotypically feminine trans is any higher than cisgendered women.

[Niamh.]

Yeh, I sort of got this impression. I think you care less about your gender than most others, and I think youre reflecting your own personal experience with gender on to everybody else.. most people like to give themselves a gender-label, and I'm not sure if you're stepping out of your shoes very much in this debate.
I'd feel the same as Vicky on it tbh, obviously it would be weird if I was actually a woman yesterday though and a man the next day because I would have actually phsically and mentally experianced being a woman and then had a body swap so not really tbe same thing [emoji14]

[Niamh.]

Surely you can equally say...you can't be born male and say 'well actually I feel female' because you aren't? :suspect: I would argue that femininity and masculinity are what is learnt after birth. And in such, 'gender' is actually masculinity or femininity rather than sex :shrug:
Also a big part of "feeling like a woman" imo is learned by how others treat you as a woman much more so than whether you play with dolls or are emotional or whatever (which I dont think are indicators of how much of a woman someone is)

[Vicky.]

Do you have reason to believe that this happens frequently/at all aside from there being a lot of stereotypically feminine trans? Because I think thats where we're disagreeing. I can't imagine the ratio of stereotypically feminine trans is any higher than cisgendered women.

Transsexual people, I agree entirely.

'Transgender' not so much. Maybe I didn't make the distinction clear and this is where the disconnect has came from with us :p See transgender includes so many people its insane. The most prominent (both in real life and in transactivism) are the non-dysphoric folk who shout on about how they are 'real' women...often more so than actual females. These people believe there is such thing as a female penis, spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to threaten lesbians into shagging them and try to gain access to female spaces through laws that aren't needed. THESE people I have an issue with and they seem to see 'female' as nothing more than a suit to put on...will be all about stereotypes.

I do find it rather fascinating though, that most 'trans' stories do seem to start out with dresses and pink sparkles. Almost as if if these kids were allowed to be themselves without rigid sex stereotypes forced on them then...

[Deirdre]

Also a big part of "feeling like a woman" imo is learned by how others treat you as a woman much more so than whether you play with dolls or are emotional or whatever (which I dont think are indicators of how much of a woman someone is)

yeah I was a huge tomboy when I was small. Isn't any inclination that someone might be trans.
I don't know what is, I know very little on the subject despite trans people being a huge part (sometimes the biggest part) of the LGBT scene now.

[DemolitionRed]

I don't believe gender is anything more than a bunch of stereotypes though. So obviously I don't care about it? I actually think 'gender' is just a personality. So everyone has one and there are as many 'genders' as there are people alive.

How do you suggest I can step out of my shoes in this?


Edit. Ahh you were meaning gender as in sex. Mixing them up again. Well...not really. I AM the sex I am...thats kind of it. Only time I have ever 'felt female' was when giving birth, breastfeeding and such.

This gender/sex mixup thing confuses me as I thought til last year that they both meant the same thing and that gender was just a polite way of saying sex :hehe:

I find this alien to how I think and feel about being a woman. I love being a female so thank God I wasn't born a male. I enjoy the huge array of clothes I can wear. I like dressing up and going out on the arm of a strong man (my husband) I love that he loves my femininity.

[Kizzy]

I'm going to attempt to put my view as simply as I can, I think you can be born male and female, and you ca choose to be male or female.

But for a male to become a man and a female to become a woman I think that happens via socialisation over the course of your life. So in short only males and females born into these genders can have the experience which shape us interpersonally and intrapersonally.

As said however people are identifying as trans younger and younger, so this would be new territory, they won't necessarily have that whole issue of living a large part of their lives as one gender before transitioning, therefore would I consider those 'women'?
I'm inclined to think not, as for me I just cannot separate the female to woman aspect and indicates a new term is warranted.

[Ronald.]

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

[Beso]

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

It will be to some bleeding liberal.

[DemolitionRed]

Is it offensive to say ****** these days? R

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

[Ronald.]

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

Good question. Thanks for clearing that up. R.

[Vicky.]

I think its because '******' is what has always been used for 'transvestite' typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes primarily associated with the opposite sex. Post-op females are not transvestites and so they would be offended if they were called '******'.

I wonder why females who dress up to look like men aren't called '******'

Probably because its been normalized for females to wear stereotypically male clothing over the years. There were huge pushes for women to be accepted wearing trousers (and some places still dont bloody allow it and force skirts :crazy: ) where there has not been a similar movement for men who want to wear skirts and that.

[Livia]

The first thing I want to say is that, if someone's life can be improved by them living as a member of the sex opposite to that which they were born to, then I would encourage them to do that. It's such a short life, people should do whatever they can to be happy.

That said, I personally do not consider transsexuals to be "real" women, they are transsexuals. As people have said, the transition from girl to woman and the experiences you go through are important elements of what makes you a woman. As Kizzy said, as people are identifying with the opposite sex earlier and earlier, this might change.

[Niamh.]

The first thing I want to say is that, if someone's life can be improved by them living as a member of the sex opposite to that which they were born to, then I would encourage them to do that. It's such a short life, people should do whatever they can to be happy.

That said, I personally do not consider transsexuals to be "real" women, they are transsexuals. As people have said, the transition from girl to woman and the experiences you go through are important elements of what makes you a woman. As Kizzy said, as people are identifying with the opposite sex earlier and earlier, this might change.

That kind of scares me a bit though, I'm not keen on children being encouraged to transition into another gender, they're too young imo

[Livia]

That kind of scares me a bit though, I'm not keen on children being encouraged to transition into another gender, they're too young imo

Yeah, I see that.

Half of me thinks that kids just want to be different... stand out... might want to transition without actually knowing what it means... It must be a nightmare if it's your child.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm going to attempt to put my view as simply as I can, I think you can be born male and female, and you ca choose to be male or female.

But for a male to become a man and a female to become a woman I think that happens via socialisation over the course of your life. So in short only males and females born into these genders can have the experience which shape us interpersonally and intrapersonally.

As said however people are identifying as trans younger and younger, so this would be new territory, they won't necessarily have that whole issue of living a large part of their lives as one gender before transitioning, therefore would I consider those 'women'?
I'm inclined to think not, as for me I just cannot separate the female to woman aspect and indicates a new term is warranted.

The problem, particularly for mature men, is, they normally have all the features of a man and so even if they do transition successfully, without cosmetic surgery they will always look like a cock in a frock. And then there's a double problem. No matter how much they transform their face and their body, they will still have the horrors of a masculine voice.

Do these masculine features and a deep voice make them less acceptable as women?

[Kizzy]

The problem, particularly for mature men, is, they normally have all the features of a man and so even if they do transition successfully, without cosmetic surgery they will always look like a cock in a frock. And then there's a double problem. No matter how much they transform their face and their body, they will still have the horrors of a masculine voice.

Do these masculine features and a deep voice make them less acceptable as women?

Not for me no, even if you looked like a supermodel after transitioning I would have no issue accepting a person as female, that I don't have any qualms about, although I wouldn't see them as a woman either.
However you want to live is ok with me.