[Kizzy]

This is a similar argument that saw Germaine Greer banned from a few speeches in the recent past.

I have to say, I agree with Jenni Murray on this...I see being female and being a woman different too. Of course the same would be true of F to M transitions, as being a man and male are different.

One is purely physical and the other shaped from birth via socialisation which cannot for me just be discredited, forgotten or rewritten.

Anyone disagree?




'Dame Jenni Murray has written of her fury over transgender women who claim the label of “real woman” despite being unschooled in sexual politics after years of living with male privilege.

Stating at the outset that “I am not transphobic or anti-trans” she said transgender women who have not grown up with the “gendered socialisation” faced by girls cannot claim the title.'


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7612781.html

[parmnion]

What makes that stupid cow think she is the oracle on what makes a women a women.

[Mystic Mock]

When the words man and woman were created I don't think that they was termed as personality traits tbf but more based on the anatomy of the individual.

[Withano]

Transgenders are mentally the opposing sex from as early as birth, which to me makes them just as female and just as womanly (or male and manly) as any cisgender. Being born cisgendered doesnt make you better at being that gender because of childhood experiences.

I dont see why this person emphasises physical differences, I dont think its a particularly relevant factor as far as gender is concerned.

Gender is entirely cognitive to me, if you wake up everyday feeling like a woman, then you are a woman, you are just as woman as anyone else who wakes up feeling the same way, their genitals are irrelevant.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by Withano

Gender is entirely cognitive to me, if you wake up everyday feeling like a woman, then you are a woman, you are just as woman as anyone else who wakes up feeling the same way, their genitals are irrelevant.

This is the part I don't really understand, to be fair. What does "feeling like a woman" (or "feeling like a man", for that matter) actually feel like? Aren't there some huge, sweeping generalizations there? I'm pretty sure I just wake up feeling like myself. Occasionally something vaguely resembling human if I'm lucky.

[MTVN]

If you spend years living as a man having to suppress your true identity then I'm not sure you'd feel like you were enjoying the benefits of 'male privilege' that strongly

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm pretty sure I just wake up feeling like myself

Well same, but we both know that we're men. If we were born with a vagina we wouldnt wake up this easy in our own bodies, we'd instead feel uncomfortable, out of place, and with a want to be seen the way we feel. We wouldnt wake up and be comfortable appearing the way we do right now, we wouldnt be fine with putting on jeans and trimming our beard, we'd want to appear differently to those around us. We wouldnt wake up feeling like ourself because we would see ourself in the wrong body. We'd wake up feeling like somebody else, somebody with the wrong sex. In any f2m transgenders case, they wake up feeling inherently like a female, but appearing like a male - we never have woke up this way, we never will wake up with an internal conflict in our heads, because we are accustom to seeing our thoughts and our bodies match. We wake up like ourself because we are ourselves in every way imaginable. Us (men) waking up and feeling like ourself (men) is waking up feeling like a man. An M2F transgender (man) wake up feeling like themselves (woman) does not

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is the part I don't really understand, to be fair. What does "feeling like a woman" (or "feeling like a man", for that matter) actually feel like? Aren't there some huge, sweeping generalizations there? I'm pretty sure I just wake up feeling like myself. Occasionally something vaguely resembling human if I'm lucky.

Yeah that's what I think too, is it being like the stereo types that go with each is? I don't think I'm the same as every other woman on the planet, I'm just a person trying to get on with s**t, I feel like me

[smudgie]

Very difficult.
IF every body had to have a label, then I suppose women have wombs and men don't, it's not that simple though as we are all made up of many parts, hormones, genes etc, and most of them are mixed up before we are even born.
People should be celebrated for whom they are, we are all different.

[DemolitionRed]

Nature can be cruel sometimes.

There's a big difference between cross dressers and even Trans who want to dress up in a frilly dress on a Saturday night and ponce around and a person who is serious enough to go through gender realignment.

The little girl who hates wearing girly things and wants to climb trees with the boys gets labbled a tomboy and its assumed she will grow out of it. The little boy who wants to wear feminine clothes and hang out with the other little girls quickly learns that this isn't the expected norm. But what happens to these kids when the hormones kick in. This is when these kids start to suffer from enormous sress and anxiety. Its these kids who often attempt or even succeed with suicide and if they do survive, they often get sectioned for their own safety.

My TG friend once said to me, " Imagine waking up tomorrow morning in the wrong body. That's how it was for me every single day" His brain was never that of a female but even with very liberal and accepting parents, the outside world who saw he had breasts and child bearing hips had expectations; to be anything other than female was considered freakish by a wide section of society. I have spent enough time with him over the years to know that he was always male; he was just born in the wrong body but that has now been corrected.

[Ronald.]

I've never met any transsexuals before . I saw that one on the telly on eastenders . Stacey's brother . He was nice and his story was touching. R.

[Vicky.]

Those buying the 'born in the wrong body' rhetoric are actually transphobic themselves. Thats how far this has gone.

I don't disagree with anything Murray says. I read this yesterday but didn't dare post it on here because...reasons

Sorry, I am still pretty old fashioned in that 'woman' to me means 'adult human female' and 'man' means 'adult human male'. I get that they have evolved into a 'feeling' these days. Woman can be masculine, or have surgery to look more like a male, and vice versa...but this does not alter the sex you actually are nor should it strip away protections based on that sex. Can anyone who says 'transwomen are women' define what a woman actually is for me please? A circular meaning doesn't work...as 'anyone who feels like a woman'...well, quite what are they feeling like? Its kinda like me saying 'a flobalob is a flobalob' 'but what IS a flobalob' 'its a flobalob'. Nonsense.

'Transgender' has a new meaning that not many people are aware of, meaning basically anyone can wake up one day and 'be' the opposite sex. Thats completely wrong and is a huge can of worms being opened right there. We already have had violent male prisoners locked up with females...this matter runs much deeper than the 'but its just loos!' argument.

Its not about those 'born in the wrong body' who suffer crippling dysphoria anymore. Its quite literally about anyone declaring themselves to be anything they say they are. Which is a dangerous road to go down. There is due to be a debate in parliament about allowing 'gender identity' to trump sex. I don't HAVE a 'gender identity' as I am missing this magical womanly essence (or a version of a soul...as it sounds?). I am going to be screwed eh...


Funnily enough, I know 2 transwomen in real life (both are post op) and both of those think the current day rhetoric is crazy.

[Vicky.]

I also ask, whats the difference between transgender and transracial. The second was horrendous, but the first is accepted without question. Are they really that different? If so...why?

For those not familiar with the trans-racial backlash... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...P=share_btn_tw

About time people started speaking up and asking questions about this whole thing.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Those buying the 'born in the wrong body' rhetoric are actually transphobic themselves. thats how far this has gone.

I don't disagree with anything Murray says. I read this yesterday but didn't dare post it on here because...reasons

Sorry, I am still pretty old fashioned in that 'woman' to me means 'adult human female' and 'man' means 'adult human male'. I get that they have evolved into a 'feeling' these days. Woman can be masculine, or have surgery to look more like a male, and vice versa...but this does not alter the sex you actually are nor should it strip away protections based on that sex.

'Transgender' has a new meaning that not many people are aware of, meaning basically anyone can wake up one day and 'be' the opposite sex. Thats completely wrong and is a huge can of worms being opened right there. We already have had violent male prisoners locked up with females...this matter runs much deeper than the 'but its just loos!' argument.

Its not about those 'born in the wrong body' who suffer crippling dysphoria anymore. Its quite literally about anyone declaring themselves to be anything they say they are. Which is a dangerous road to go down.

Can anyone who says 'transwomen are women' define what a woman actually is for me please? A circular meaning doesn't work...as 'anyone who feels like a woman'...well, quite what are they feeling like?

Funnily enough, I know 2 transwomen in real life (both are post op) and both of those think the current day rhetoric is crazy.

Yeah that's a good question, I couldn't do it, I'm very much a believer in people as individuals. If you start trying to define what makes a woman a woman or a man a man you're just going to end up with the stereotypes I think and people aren't stereotypes

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah that's a good question, I couldn't do it, I'm very much a believer in people as individuals. If you start trying to define what makes a woman a woman or a man a man you're just going to end up with the stereotypes I think and people aren't stereotypes

The ONLY way to do it is by stereotypes. And we should be moving away from ****ing stereotypes. Jesus. Do we really want to be pushing the 'if you are feminine you actually ARE a woman' and vice versa? Really? This is harmful to everyone. be a feminine male, be a masculine female...have surgeries and hormones and get a haircut if that makes you feel better about yourself. but you cannot change sex. Sorry. And sex does matter in some areas of life..

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

Well same, but we both know that we're men. If we were born with a vagina we wouldnt wake up this easy in our own bodies, we'd instead feel uncomfortable, out of place, and with a want to be seen the way we feel. We wouldnt wake up and be comfortable appearing the way we do right now, we wouldnt be fine with putting on jeans and trimming our beard, we'd want to appear differently to those around us. We wouldnt wake up feeling like ourself because we would see ourself in the wrong body. We'd wake up feeling like somebody else, somebody with the wrong sex. In any f2m transgenders case, they wake up feeling inherently like a female, but appearing like a male - we never have woke up this way, we never will wake up with an internal conflict in our heads, because we are accustom to seeing our thoughts and our bodies match. We wake up like ourself because we are ourselves in every way imaginable. Us (men) waking up and feeling like ourself (men) is waking up feeling like a man. An M2F transgender (man) wake up feeling like themselves (woman) does not

Are you sure you wouldn't still wake up feeling like you but just happen to be a different sex? How can one POSSIBLY know what it feels like to be something other than what they are? It makes no sense.

How do you feel about the 'trans-abled'? again , I don't see how this is any different. Those who feel like their body isn't right, feel they should have been born without limbs/blind and have treatments to become that way....wheres the difference, really?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

'Transgender' has a new meaning that not many people are aware of, meaning basically anyone can wake up one day and 'be' the opposite sex.

I'd probably argue that someone waking up "one day" and feeling that way was more bigender. Transgender is permanent and constant.

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Funnily enough, I know 2 transwomen in real life (both are post op) and both of those think the current day rhetoric is crazy.

Do you consider them women? Men? Somewhere inbetween?

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I'd probably argue that someone waking up "one day" and feeling that way was more bigender. Transgender is permanent and constant.



Do you consider them women? Men? Somewhere inbetween?

I consider them...transwomen? So I guess somewhere in the middle.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

How can one POSSIBLY know what it feels like to be something other than what they are? It makes no sense.
?

A couple hundred thousand case studies, and the backing of psychological and scientific communities are evidence for me.

I grew up with an m2f transgender person - wasnt close to them, but watched them play with dolls at like 4, grow their hair out at like 9, started dressing as a female on weekends at 14ish and started dressing as a female inside school shortly after

I simply refuse to believe this person ever woke up feeling the way that their naked body looked. I think they always knew they wasnt what they are, and I hope they can live the rest of their life appearing the way they see themselves without the discrimination of others.

I dont know anything about other types of trans', I'd struggle to comment on it

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

A couple hundred thousand case studies, and the backing of psychological and scientific communities are evidence for me.

I grew up with an m2f transgender person - wasnt close to them, but watched them play with dolls at like 4, grow their hair out at like 9, started dressing as a female on weekends at 14ish and started dressing as a female inside school shortly after

I simply refuse to believe this person ever woke up feeling the way that their naked body looked. I think they always knew they wasnt what they are, and I hope they can live the rest of their life appearing the way they see themselves without the discrimination of others.

I dont know anything about other types of trans', I'd struggle to comment on it

That's basically playing into the whole stereotype s**t though

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

A couple hundred thousand case studies, and the backing of psychological and scientific communities are evidence for me.

I grew up with an m2f transgender person - wasnt close to them, but watched them play with dolls at like 4, grow their hair out at like 9, started dressing as a female on weekends at 14ish and started dressing as a female inside school shortly after

I simply refuse to believe this person ever woke up feeling the way that their naked body looked. I think they always knew they wasnt what they are, and I hope they can live the rest of their life appearing the way they see themselves without the discrimination of others.

I dont know anything about other types of trans', I'd struggle to comment on it

Stereotypes...what does liking playing with dolls have to do with liking how your naked body looks? I hated dolls and everything girly and still do in the most part. What does this make me?

This would make that person a male who likes stereotypically girly interests/style/whatever. It does not make them the opposite sex?

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's basically playing into the whole stereotype s**t though

I don't know any non-stereotypical transgenders. I'd imagine that they would have never felt the way their naked body looked either

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I don't know any non-stereotypical transgenders. I'd imagine that they would have never felt the way their naked body looked either

Genuine question...do many people? I don't know many who do/seem to. I don't see how even an extreme version of this self hatred is any different to the likes of Body dysmorphic disorder.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Stereotypes...what does liking playing with dolls have to do with liking how your naked body looks? I hated dolls and everything girly and still do in the most part. What does this make me?

This would make that person a male who likes stereotypically girly interests/style/whatever. It does not make them the opposite sex?

No youre getting too hung up on the only personal example I have

Having a constant feeling that you are in the wrong body is transgender to me, I believe that this definition fits the only example I have - and every other transgender person.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Withano

I don't know any non-stereotypical transgenders. I'd imagine that they would have never felt the way their naked body looked either

Ugh this topic is such a mine field, I'm half afraid to post what I actually think for fear of offending people. I have massess of sympathy for transgender people, i really do, what a horrendous way to feel about yourself but I wonder sometimes is it this whole business of stereotyping that contributes to making them feel how they do?