2nd Scottish referendum announced

[Greg!]

I have googled and I've yet to find any quote from a Spanish government minister that says they'd block Scotland. Because they've never said it. The Spanish PM himself said the Scottish situation is different from Catalonia because the referendum would be legally binding when approved by the UK govt.

[jaxie]

https://wildernessofpeace.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/guyverhofstadttwitter.jpg

https://wildernessofpeace.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/czechconsul.jpg

The issue of Scotland’s position has already been placed to the fore by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon. The future of Scotland within the UK is a matter for the people of Scotland. However the future of Scotland within the EU should it leave the UK is a matter which concerns all EU states.
I and my party believe that it would be unacceptable for Scotland to be treated as a normal candidate country should it seek to remain as a member of the EU. It currently implements all EU laws. It manifestly would not need to be reviewed for its standards of governance and ability to implement EU laws. It has a strong administration, a distinct legal system and an absolute commitment to European ideals.
Scotland is strong enough to advocate for itself, but Ireland should be its friend and demand fair play should it seek to remain in the EU.
– Statement by Micheál Martin, 27th June 2016

and there's loads more in the link...........

https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2016/07/03/scotlands-friends-in-europe/

It's on twitter it's the law! :laugh:

[Greg!]

The first tweet is from the chief Brexit EU negotiator so... it kind of is :laugh:

[jaxie]

The first tweet is from the chief Brexit EU negotiator so... it kind of is

If that is what you think. :shrug:

[Cherie]

Whilst I agree, it doesn't seem at all practical for Scotland to remain in the single market when the UK doesn't.

Scottish trade with the rest of the UK is over four times larger than it's trade with the rest of the EU. Scottish exports per year to the UK are around GBP 50 billion - compared to GBP 12 billion to the rest of the EU. Exports to the rest of the UK are over a third of Scottish GBP (GBP 150 billion).

As for May, if she had shown a willingness to engage in discussions with the Scottish Government and its detailed 'Framework Plan' and negotiate in good faith (as promised last June), this present situation would not have arisen. May's been given way too easy a time recently not least by the now dreadfully ineffective Jeremy Corbyn. This, at least, is going to make her work for her money!

Nicola needs to explain why she would rather align with the EU than the UK when the figures don't stack up at all

[jaxie]

Nicola needs to explain why she would rather align with the EU than the UK when the figures don't stack up at all

She probably can't because then the spotlight might fall on prejudices rather than the swelling surge of romantic freedom. :shrug:

[Kizzy]

The Telegraph has called for the beheading of Nicola Sturgeon. In the wake of the First Minister beginning the process for a second independence referendum, the national newspaper that claims a monthly readership of 27.1m ran the headline:
http://www.thecanary.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/telegraph-sturgeon-off-with-head.png


http://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/15/telegraph-calls-beheading-traitor-nicola-sturgeon-image/

[Denver]

She has no idea what she is doing

[Kizzy]

Is she being taken to the supreme court for unconstitutional decisions?

[Niamh.]

It's on twitter it's the law! [emoji23]
If its good enough for the President of the United States of America. . .

Also there are more than just tweets in that link

[DemolitionRed]

No Josy, all I've seen on here are links from (mostly) right-wing newspapers with headlines like "Sturgeon DEVESTATED as Spain would block Scotland EU membership." In every one of the articles, it's always said by someone like "the leader of a eurosceptic think tank" or "a former member of an EU policy group", NOT a member of the Spanish government. Because no one from the Spanish government has ever said they would vote against Scotland entering the EU.

Yes they have. Spanish Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis is one of them.

Here is a link where Dastis speaks directly to the Spanish press http://enpaiszeta.com/espana-no-permitiria-escocia-quedarse-la-ue-se-independiza/

and another link http://www.expansion.com/economia/politica/2017/03/14/58c8225146163fac428b45a4.html but its in Spanish.

Try googling 'España no permitirá que Escocia se una a la UE' and then use the translate option

[Greg!]

"If by mutual agreement or arrangement with the constitutional system applicable in the United Kingdom, Scotland ends up being independent, because our thesis is that staying in the European Union can not, because it is not a member as part of the United Kingdom," Dastis said after a Meeting with the Peruvian chancellor, Ricardo Luna.
For the Spanish minister, it is important to keep "the same things". "It does not encourage secessions or divisions in any of the member states," he said, according to the AFP news agency.
He also said that if Scotland wants to become independent "it will have to queue, so to speak colloquially, and meet the requirements to enter."

All he's saying is that Scotland would need to apply and gain entry like all new members, which everyone already knew. (Various EU figures have said this wouldn't take very long) He's saying that Scotland wouldn't get automatic entry, not that Spain would veto it

[jaxie]

If its good enough for the President of the United States of America. . .

Also there are more than just tweets in that link

I know I was just playing with you.

[jaxie]

The Telegraph has called for the beheading of Nicola Sturgeon. In the wake of the First Minister beginning the process for a second independence referendum, the national newspaper that claims a monthly readership of 27.1m ran the headline:
http://www.thecanary.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/telegraph-sturgeon-off-with-head.png


http://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/15/telegraph-calls-beheading-traitor-nicola-sturgeon-image/

Not to stick up for the press or anything but I think you are taking that headline a bit literally to claim it's calling for her beheading. :shrug:

[jaxie]

All he's saying is that Scotland would need to apply and gain entry like all new members, which everyone already knew. (Various EU figures have said this wouldn't take very long) He's saying that Scotland wouldn't get automatic entry, not that Spain would veto it

Then don't worry about it. Go vote leave in the next referendum, good luck to you. You're paying for the wall tho.

[DemolitionRed]

All he's saying is that Scotland would need to apply and gain entry like all new members, which everyone already knew. (Various EU figures have said this wouldn't take very long) He's saying that Scotland wouldn't get automatic entry, not that Spain would veto it

Spain is flatly rejecting Scotland's plan to negotiate its stay in the single market despite Brexit. Spain WILL exercise a veto against any special treatment. This puts Scotland on the same track as any other country trying to join the EU and this is not what Sturgeon wanted; in fact this is a devastating blow to the SNP. Spain would love to keep Scotland out of the EU because of its own territorial conflicts, especially with Catalonia, but legally it can't do that, everyone knows that. What Spain does have is a constitutional right to reject easy access to the Union and so forgive me because I thought that's what we were talking about.

[Greg!]

Spain is flatly rejecting Scotland's plan to negotiate its stay in the single market despite Brexit. Spain WILL exercise a veto against any special treatment. This puts Scotland on the same track as any other country trying to join the EU and this is not what Sturgeon wanted; in fact this is a devastating blow to the SNP. Spain would love to keep Scotland out of the EU because of its own territorial conflicts, especially with Catalonia, but legally it can't do that, everyone knows that. What Spain does have is a constitutional right to reject easy access to the Union and so forgive me because I thought that's what we were talking about.

Sorry, I thought you were saying that Spain would veto Scotland entering the EU. Yes obviously Scotland would need to re-apply, but there are differences of opinion on how long it would take . Personally I don't think it would take very long after hearing and reading a lot of EU figures and experts say it would be straightforward.

[Greg!]

Also there isn't a "queue" to get in. Some countries like Turkey have been trying for decades but many countries took a year or less to meet the requirements and get in

[jaxie]

Also there isn't a "queue" to get in. Some countries like Turkey have been trying for decades but many countries took a year or less to meet the requirements and get in

How does that year apply to a country with a huge deficit though?

[Greg!]

How does that year apply to a country with a huge deficit though?

The size of a deficit isn't a requirement to enter the EU (it is to join the euro, but that is optional)

[jaxie]

The size of a deficit isn't a requirement to enter the EU (it is to join the euro, but that is optional)

What you think that they will just take you on, deficit and all, and do better than the Barnett formula? Nice fantasy. What's in it for the EU exactly?

[Greg!]

What you think that they will just take you on, deficit and all, and do better than the Barnett formula? Nice fantasy. What's in it for the EU exactly?

An extra country and ally at a time when there's suggestions the whole thing might fall apart?

[jaxie]

An extra country and ally at a time when there's suggestions the whole thing might fall apart?

An ally, what can Scotland do for the EU? Defend the borders of the EU against Russia? There won't be a military, you already overspent and don't have money for that or anything else. So apart from expecting the EU to keep you, what is in it for them? Why do they need an extra country who would be sponging off them rather than paying in to them? I'm not seeing your logic here on Scotland's attractiveness to the EU. :shrug:

Don't be under any illusions, currently the UK is paying Scotland's bills. How do you keep yourselves when the money stops? And if you just expect the EU to fund you and take over, really what is in it for them? If you are going to throw away the status quo, at least try to be realistic.

[Denver]

Also there isn't a "queue" to get in. Some countries like Turkey have been trying for decades but many countries took a year or less to meet the requirements and get in

The reason Turkey has not joined is because at least 8 countries have said they will walk away

[Denver]

An extra country and ally at a time when there's suggestions the whole thing might fall apart?

Oh the EU is falling apart and it will be destroyed as soon as the likes of France, Spain and Hungary leave

[Greg!]

An ally, what can Scotland do for the EU? Defend the borders of the EU against Russia? There won't be a military, you already overspent and don't have money for that or anything else. So apart from expecting the EU to keep you, what is in it for them? Why do they need an extra country who would be sponging off them rather than paying in to them? I'm not seeing your logic here on Scotland's attractiveness to the EU. :shrug:

:joker: I don't think a requirement of the EU is going to war with Russia but whatever tickes your pickle I guess, that's your opinion. And why wouldn't Scotland have an army?? Of course they would. No country "sponges" off the EU, you have to pay into it to get the benefits of it.

[Denver]

:joker: I don't think a requirement of the EU is going to war with Russia but whatever tickes your pickle I guess, that's your opinion. And why wouldn't Scotland have an army?? Of course they would. No country "sponges" off the EU, you have to pay into it to get the benefits of it.

Actually there is only a British army not a Scottish one.

70% of countries pay nothing into the EU because they have no money

[Greg!]

Actually there is only a British army not a Scottish one.

70% of countries pay nothing into the EU because they have no money

... and the Scottish regiments would become a part of a Scottish army....... pretty basic stuff

[jaxie]

:joker: I don't think a requirement of the EU is going to war with Russia but whatever tickes your pickle I guess, that's your opinion. And why wouldn't Scotland have an army?? Of course they would. No country "sponges" off the EU, you have to pay into it to get the benefits of it.

That isn't what I said. What I said was what can you offer the EU, defence being one suggestion.

So how do you pay into the EU? All money from the UK has stopped. What money is this you are paying in? Where does it come from? And how do you do that and sustain your current level of welfare?

[Denver]

... and the Scottish regiments would become a part of a Scottish army

You cant just take the Scottish people and make an army it doesnt work like that

[jaxie]

... and the Scottish regiments would become a part of a Scottish army....... pretty basic stuff

Pretty basic fantasy.

You clearly don't really have a clue about how Scotland would survive financially or what they could bring to the table and what really concerns me that people like you caught up in some need for a romantacised version of freedom you've been spoon fed by the SNP will vote for it and to the very great detriment of the people of Scotland if you succeed. If you are going to do it, at least learn your facts first because it's a huge decision you can't take back. When I voted to leave the EU, I knew what I was voting for and why. For the sake of my Ferguson great grannie, I urge you to know what you are voting for before you do it.

Taxation won't give you the luxurious welfare state you enjoy now so that will have to change, you can't it all ways. It would be interesting to see just how popular the dear old SNP are 5 years after Scotland leaving the UK.

[Greg!]

That isn't what I said. What I said was what can you offer the EU, defence being one suggestion.

So how do you pay into the EU? All money from the UK has stopped. What money is this you are paying in? Where does it come from? And how do you do that and sustain your current level of welfare?

Scotland gets a disproportionate amount of money from the UK compared to the amount of tax we pay. We'd get money the way every other independent country on earth gets money, thorough taxation, trade etc. not that difficult to comprehend

[Denver]

Scotland gets a disproportionate amount of money from the UK compared to the amount of tax we pay. We'd get money the way every other independent country on earth gets money, thorough taxation, trade etc. not that difficult to comprehend

Scotland does way more trade with the UK then any other country so you will loose a lot of trade when you are told to join the back of the queue

[Greg!]

Scotland does way more trade with the UK then any other country so you will loose a lot of trade when you are told to join the back of the queue

Join the back of the queue even though England does most of its trade with Scotland which is incidentally its closest neighbour. If you genuinely believe that I'll leave you to it.

[Denver]

Join the back of the queue even though England does most of its trade with Scotland which is incidentally its closest neighbour. If you genuinely believe that I'll leave you to it.

The UK will go elsewhere and not to the country that stabbed them in the back

[Greg!]

Sure

[Denver]

The UK will have the money to go elsewhere Scotland wont

[Greg!]

Scotland gets a disproportionate amount of money from the UK compared to the amount of tax we pay. We'd get money the way every other independent country on earth gets money, thorough taxation, trade etc. not that difficult to comprehend

Oh I forgot! We'd also save hundreds of billions by not paying for trident nuclear weapons

[Denver]

Nuclear weapons are important though.

When Scotland get attacked they will have nobody

[Greg!]

So important that almost every country in the world don't have any

[jaxie]

Nuclear weapons are important though.

When Scotland get attacked they will have nobody

Scotland will have the EU surely, who I am sure would make a lot of sympathetic noises if that ever happened.

[jaxie]

So important that almost every country in the world don't have any

You kind of have to look at who does have them though.

[Greg!]

Ok Jaxie, you got me there. We'll be nuked :(

[Denver]

So important that almost every country in the world don't have any

Some countries are not allowed them

Poor countries can not afford them]

Major countries have them and they will be vital when we get a nuclear war

[jaxie]

Ok Jaxie, you got me there. We'll be nuked :(

Probably unlikely since we are joined at the hip. But there is a case for a nuclear deterrent.

[Greg!]

Pretty basic fantasy.

You clearly don't really have a clue about how Scotland would survive financially or what they could bring to the table and what really concerns me that people like you caught up in some need for a romantacised version of freedom you've been spoon fed by the SNP will vote for it and to the very great detriment of the people of Scotland if you succeed. If you are going to do it, at least learn your facts first because it's a huge decision you can't take back. When I voted to leave the EU, I knew what I was voting for and why. For the sake of my Ferguson great grannie, I urge you to know what you are voting for before you do it.

Taxation won't give you the luxurious welfare state you enjoy now so that will have to change, you can't it all ways. It would be interesting to see just how popular the dear old SNP are 5 years after Scotland leaving the UK.

No offence, but I'll vote for what I think is best for my country and it's future, not to please your great granny.
Quite rich for you to tell me to "learn facts" when I have told you various facts about the EU and scotlands entry into it which you clearly didn't know before.
I didn't agree with Brexit but I would never insult the intelligence of someone who voted for it or claim they didn't know what they were voting for, they clearly thought hard about it and considered what the consequences would be.

[Tom4784]

Nukes aren't for defense, they're a tool for mutually assured destruction.

[Tom4784]

Some countries are not allowed them

Poor countries can not afford them]

Major countries have them and they will be vital when we get a nuclear war

It wouldn't matter who was nukes or not, if a 'nuclear war' were to happen then we'd all be dead by the end of it.

[Denver]

It wouldn't matter who was nukes or not, if a 'nuclear war' were to happen then we'd all be dead by the end of it.

Not necessarily because only a few countries will attack with one and they will most likely only have time to attack one countries before they are wiped out.

They are there to protect the world

[Denver]

No offence, but I'll vote for what I think is best for my country and it's future, not to please your great granny.
Quite rich for you to tell me to "learn facts" when I have told you various facts about the EU and scotlands entry into it which you clearly didn't know before.
I didn't agree with Brexit but I would never insult the intelligence of someone who voted for it or claim they didn't know what they were voting for, they clearly thought hard about it and considered what the consequences would be.

Voting Scotland out of the UK is not good for the country

[DemolitionRed]

Nuclear weapons are important though.

When Scotland get attacked they will have nobody

Oh come off it! If Scotland gets attacked by nuclear weapons it will be during the end of the world. We are all going to die.

[Tom4784]

Not necessarily because only a few countries will attack with one and they will most likely only have time to attack one countries before they are wiped out.

They are there to protect the world

No, if a Nuclear War was to happen it would mean the end of us. The dropping of the first nuke would lead to a series of events that would end up destroying everything. Nukes aren't for defense, they're, at best, a deterrent by threatening mutually assured destruction.

The fact you seem so cavalier about wiping out countries and how enthused you seem about the prospect of a Nuclear War is quite frankly worrying.

[DemolitionRed]

Not necessarily because only a few countries will attack with one and they will most likely only have time to attack one countries before they are wiped out.

They are there to protect the world

They are there as a deterrent but once one goes off, they will all go off.

Edited to add: I should sit back and read the entire thread before responding!

[Denver]

No, if a Nuclear War was to happen it would mean the end of us. The dropping of the first nuke would lead to a series of events that would end up destroying everything. Nukes aren't for defense, they're, at best, a deterrent by threatening mutually assured destruction.

The fact you seem so cavalier about wiping out countries and how enthused you seem about the prospect of a Nuclear War is quite frankly worrying.
It is a reality that t will mist likely happen so people need to get used to it.

There are many leaders who will risk anything to kill enemies

[Denver]

A war is on the way it is just a waiting game.

The world are already getting ready for it

[Cherie]

It's interesting to see out of all the respondents on the council tax thread only the TS's council tax hasn't gone up, you don't have any uni fees, no prescription charges and propbably plenty other freebies as well all propped up by taxation from the UK yet some of you think you are " forgotten" by Westminster, I wouldn't mind bring forgotten if I got all those perks :idc:

[Greg!]

Yawn. If England wants a decent government that provides free uni, free prescriptions etc like Scotland then all they have to do is vote for them instead of being pressed and jealous! :smug:

[Cherie]

Yawn. If England wants a decent government that provides free uni, free prescriptions etc like Scotland then all they have to do is vote for them instead of being pressed and jealous! :smug:


Too right I'm jealous :laugh: no government has offered to sort this, well the Lib Dems did with Tuition fees but reneged on it, so you agree you have a lot of perks but you want to walk away to be in charge of your own destiny, so hopefully Scotland can provide all this for themselves, I'm all for you going in all honesty :smug: more in the pot for the rest of us :hee:

[user104658]

Also there isn't a "queue" to get in. Some countries like Turkey have been trying for decades but many countries took a year or less to meet the requirements and get in

Indeed. There seems to be a major misconception that it's a "first come first served" basis and Scotland will have to wait until all of the other current applicants are accepted before even being considered :think:. The truth is that the "queue" is more accurately the applicant country itself being able to fulfil certain criteria set out in negotiations. As mentioned in this thread, Scotland already has an automatic head start there, as Scottish law and court systems, various other systems of government, trade set-ups, etc. are already EU-compatible. There are no changes or updates required to the day to day running of things to be EU members, as Scotland has been operating within EU criteria for decades.

What you think that they will just take you on, deficit and all, and do better than the Barnett formula? Nice fantasy. What's in it for the EU exactly?

As stated already the deficit is not a barrier to EU membership. It can be a barrier to joining the Euro because the deficit (and any potential bankruptcy) would then directly affect the value of the Euro itself. Bringing the Barnett formula into it is more or less a completely moot point as it is pretty clear (and agreed by most high profile economists) that it is quite clear that the Conservative government, and Theresa May especially, is angling towards dismantling any extra support that Scotland gets from the UK with regards to the Barnett formula. The "support" is going to evaporate, in or out. So the question becomes, for Scotland, what is more important? Access to the single market, or easy trading within the UK? But the UK is already trying to negotiate for easy-as-possible trade with EU member states anyway :think:. So for a smaller nation like Scotland, single market membership with a single market that will be trading with England anyway, and despite the pie-in-the-sky hopes of Brexiteers, almost certainly on favorable terms. It's a no-brainer.

You also (deliberately or not? I'm not sure...) over emphasize how heavily Scotland leans on UK support. Scotland has a GDP of around 215 Billion and, when you take what bounces back to London out of the equation, the benefit of the formula is something like 9 billion, so 4% of GDP. To state that "England pays the bills!" is frankly ridiculous. Also let's remember why the formula exists; which is that Scotland has contributed countless billions in Natural Resources to the UK's coffers over the last hundred years. And in fact that only reason that it is currently a "subsidy" at all is because of record low oil prices, up until very recent years, Scotland was a massive net contributer. On top of that, oil prices will 100% certainly rebound dramatically, eventually, which is one of the main reasons that Westminster is so keen to maintain the union. If Scotland was a "no questions asked" drain on England, then why wouldn't they want to shed the "dead weight"? Hmmm.

Oh and to be fair... by England, I mean London & The South, because most regions of England get an even more disproportionate slice of the tax-pie than Scotland while contributing even less.


A war is on the way it is just a waiting game.

The world are already getting ready for it

Err if you're right about that then none of this matters. Having nukes won't make us "safe" in a Nuclear War, it'll just ensure that we're one of the first to go when the buttons get pressed :joker:. Nuclear war is GAME OVER, for everyone, I'm afraid. I think you need to come to terms with that :umm2:.

BUT it does bring me nicely onto my final point, regarding what England "gives" to Scotland and "how would we cope" without it;

I consider it VERY VERY LIKELY that for at least a decade at least after potential independence, England would simply continue to pay to store and operate Trident out of Scotland. Setting up the infrastructure south of the border would take time and (a lot of) money. The simple solution would be for Westminster to simply "rent" the Trident bases from Scotland.

[Greg!]

What Toy Soldier said! :clap1:

[user104658]

Too right I'm jealous :laugh: no government has offered to sort this, well the Lib Dems did with Tuition fees but reneged on it, so you agree you have a lot of perks but you want to walk away to be in charge of your own destiny, so hopefully Scotland can provide all this for themselves, I'm all for you going in all honesty :smug: more in the pot for the rest of us :hee:

To reiterate; over-exaggerating how much England "gives" to Scotland. It's in the region of 9 billion (net) out of 215 billion "Scottish funds", or less than 4% of GDP. Not insignificant but also... well... it's 4%.

England has roughly 10x the population of Scotland and roughly 10x the GDP. Which means that that £9 billion represents 0.4% to England. I mean I guess every little counts but... ... I don't think you're going to notice it. Maybe Queen Liz will get a new bathroom or summat.

[Cherie]

To reiterate; over-exaggerating how much England "gives" to Scotland. It's in the region of 9 billion (net) out of 215 billion "Scottish funds", or less than 4% of GDP. Not insignificant but also... well... it's 4%.

England has roughly 10x the population of Scotland and roughly 10x the GDP. Which means that that £9 billion represents 0.4% to England. I mean I guess every little counts but... ... I don't think you're going to notice it. Maybe Queen Liz will get a new bathroom or summat.

More valuable than any cash is not having to listen to Nicola et al whining about how hard done by the Scots are ..utter bliss, lobby your MP to extend the vote to the rest of the UK, we'll send you off before you know it :laugh:

[Tom4784]

It is a reality that t will mist likely happen so people need to get used to it.

There are many leaders who will risk anything to kill enemies

I love fiction.

There's nothing to gain for any countries that have nuclear capabilities to actually use them, you've been watching too much Game of Thrones if you think that World Leaders go for the nuclear option at the drop of a hat.

[AnnieK]

I honestly don't understand why English residents are getting all worked up over it. I watched the last ref with interest but had no problem if they stay or go. I don't think it would impact on my daily life either way and if the people of Scotland want independence then surely they should be entitled to vote to have it. We've just voted for the same independence and got it so :shrug:

[ebandit]

I honestly don't understand why English residents are getting all worked up over it.

i'm excited that the scots could leave the uk.................at last

...the wall would not be that far from where i live...........think of the
tourist possibilities.....................

post independence hope their 'moonshine' will be outlawed...

Mark L

[Niamh.]

That isn't what I said. What I said was what can you offer the EU, defence being one suggestion.

So how do you pay into the EU? All money from the UK has stopped. What money is this you are paying in? Where does it come from? And how do you do that and sustain your current level of welfare?
Ireland is a similar sized and populated country and manage so why wouldnt Scotland? Scotland is actually a bit bigger :shrug:

[Niamh.]

It wouldn't matter who was nukes or not, if a 'nuclear war' were to happen then we'd all be dead by the end of it.
True fact

[ebandit]

...............how true? most nuclear weapons are 'tactical' and not designed for
complete mass destruction

post chernobyl and that japanese reactor melt down...............we're not all dead

Mark L

[Niamh.]

It is a reality that t will mist likely happen so people need to get used to it.

There are many leaders who will risk anything to kill enemies
And those with the nukes are likely to target others with nukes first

[Cherie]

I honestly don't understand why English residents are getting all worked up over it. I watched the last ref with interest but had no problem if they stay or go. I don't think it would impact on my daily life either way and if the people of Scotland want independence then surely they should be entitled to vote to have it. We've just voted for the same independence and got it so :shrug:

They did vote! They can't whine every time something doesn't go their way when they voted in. Also the can have their 2nd of a once a generation referendum, but they should bear the cost themselves I really don't see why the UK should foot the bill, its only pennies in the grand scheme of things but in principal they need to fund however many reruns there will be until the SNP get the right answer themselves

[Cherie]

Ireland is a similar sized and populated country and manage so why wouldnt Scotland? Scotland is actually a bit bigger :shrug:

I don't doubt they would manage but many of the freebies they take for granted would need to go to pay for managing, its 50 euros a time to go to the GP in Ireland isn't it, you pay for prescriptions, private healthcare, Uni, I think your your taxes are higher and it is an expensive country to live in :tongue:

[Niamh.]

I don't doubt they would manage but many of the freebies they take for granted would need to go to pay for managing, its 50 euros a time to go to the GP in Ireland isn't it, you pay for prescriptions, private healthcare, Uni, I think your your taxes are higher and it is an expensive country to live in :tongue:
There's public healthcare here but you do have to pay for the doctor alright unless you have a medical card. Also, I've been to England loads of times, I even lived in London for a couple of years and the cost of living there is high too

[jaxie]

No offence, but I'll vote for what I think is best for my country and it's future, not to please your great granny.
Quite rich for you to tell me to "learn facts" when I have told you various facts about the EU and scotlands entry into it which you clearly didn't know before.
I didn't agree with Brexit but I would never insult the intelligence of someone who voted for it or claim they didn't know what they were voting for, they clearly thought hard about it and considered what the consequences would be.

But you haven't given any facts. :shrug: Hey my great granny needs her UK pension!

All everyone has done since Brexit is suggest people didn't know what they were voting for. :shrug:

[jaxie]

Oh come off it! If Scotland gets attacked by nuclear weapons it will be during the end of the world. We are all going to die.

I hope there are zombies.

[Cherie]

There's public healthcare here but you do have to pay for the doctor alright unless you have a medical card. Also, I've been to England loads of times, I even lived in London for a couple of years and the cost of living there is high too

Going independent will come at a price, you compared Ireland to Scotland, they don't pay for half the stuff you guys do currently is the point I am making.

[James]

Scotland becoming Independent would just put up more barriers for Scotland, and reduce the opportunities for Scots to live, work, trade, be educated etc. across the border.

That's one of several reasons I'm against Indepedence.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't doubt they would manage but many of the freebies they take for granted would need to go to pay for managing, its 50 euros a time to go to the GP in Ireland isn't it, you pay for prescriptions, private healthcare, Uni, I think your your taxes are higher and it is an expensive country to live in :tongue:Yeah some lady on the Daily Politics was saying that if Scotland did vote for independence then it would be "turbo austerity".So i think the free stuff would probably be likely to go.

[Kizzy]

Scotland becoming Independent would just put up more barriers for Scotland, and reduce the opportunities for Scots to live, work, trade, be educated etc. across the border.

That's one of several reasons I'm against Indepedence.

Why would they want to pay £9,000 a year to go to uni here when it's free at home? :/

[Northern Monkey]

Nuclear weapons are important though.

When Scotland get attacked they will have nobody

Of course we'd defend Scotland just as we would with any of our allies.We wouldn't all hate each other just because Scotland went independent.Scotland would be our closest ally.

[Denver]

Why would they want to pay £9,000 a year to go to uni here when it's free at home? :/

They would not be free though as they would use uni as a source for money

[DemolitionRed]

Scotland already has vast economic wealth and that wealth is built on some very solid foundations. It would be foolish though, to presume that either side wouldn’t have some major market volatility. Without currency union with the UK, interest rates on borrowing would likely double for Scotland and the UK pound would almost certainly fall to an all time low. Scotland would probably have to make its own free floating currency and that could cause problems re-joining the EU. And what about the UK’s existing debt. How would it be divided between in independent Scotland and England. If Scotland walked away from its debt, which its unlikely to do as that would ensure it wouldn’t get into the EU, England could be seriously in the sh*t
Would Scotland have to regulate its own FSI and its own stock market?
Would pensions still be honoured in an independent Scotland?
So many questions need to be answered before anyone can make an informed vote.

Edited to add: someone on here suggested that the UK subsidizes Scotland. Why would that be when the Scots are well ahead of Britain in biotechnology and renewable energy. North Sea oil alone is worth well over £1 trillion. On top of that the Scots generate (per head) a lot more tax than the Brits and have done for over 30 years. Scotland has paid billions in UK debt interest that Scotland didn’t need. Clearly, Scotland has been subsidising Westminster and not the other way round.

[Kizzy]

They would not be free though as they would use uni as a source for money

They already do if you're not Scottish obv... What makes you think they will start charging the Scots?

[Denver]

They already do if you're not Scottish obv... What makes you think they will start charging the Scots?

Because they will need to generate more money and Taxes, Medical and educational fees are the easiest

[Greg!]

Yeah some lady on the Daily Politics was saying that if Scotland did vote for independence then it would be "turbo austerity".So i think the free stuff would probably be likely to go.

Was it Kezia dugdale by any chance bc that's her catchphrase and she says that all the time. UGH she annoys me to no end

[user104658]

Yeah some lady on the Daily Politics was saying that if Scotland did vote for independence then it would be "turbo austerity".So i think the free stuff would probably be likely to go.

:omgno: Well this has caused me to completely rethink everything! I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it, but I hadn't realised that the all-knowing "some lady on Daily Politics" was saying that there would be extreme austerity measures :worry:. That is concerning.

They would not be free though as they would use uni as a source for money

What? Who? The government? The government would use Universities - which are NOT government owned - as a "source for money"? :facepalm: I swear this place gets worse by the day.

[Denver]

:omgno: Well this has caused me to completely rethink everything! I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it, but I hadn't realised that the all-knowing "some lady on Daily Politics" was saying that there would be extreme austerity measures :worry:. That is concerning.



What? Who? The government? The government would use Universities - which are NOT government owned - as a "source for money"? :facepalm: I swear this place gets worse by the day.

The government are allowed to put a price on the costs of going to Uni why do you think the British government make them pay

You think the government doesnt see part of the money from Uni tuition?

[Kizzy]

Because they will need to generate more money and Taxes, Medical and educational fees are the easiest

If Scotland was going to follow the English model to make a fast buck don't you think they'd have done it by now?

[Denver]

If Scotland was going to follow the English model to make a fast buck don't you think they'd have done it by now?

Well they have a clueless bitch in charge

[user104658]

The government are allowed to put a price on the costs of going to Uni

No they don't. They can set a cap on how much Universities are allowed to charge. The Universities themselves can charge whatever they want.

why do you think the British government make them pay

They don't.

You think the government doesnt see part of the money from Uni tuition?

They DON'T

[user104658]

Well they have a clueless bitch in charge

Says the guy who thinks the government are raking it in from University tuition fees :idc:.

[jaxie]

Ireland is a similar sized and populated country and manage so why wouldnt Scotland? Scotland is actually a bit bigger :shrug:

With the utmost respect to you, I don't think Ireland even has a voice in the EU after Lisbon. It was also one of the reasons I wanted to leave. Ireland is one of the reasons I think Scotland's quest for Independence and EU love in are a really bad choice.

[Denver]

Says the guy who thinks the government are raking it in from University tuition fees :idc:.

Dont try and bait me like you do with everyone else as it wont work

[Kizzy]

Well they have a clueless bitch in charge

And England doesn't?... :joker:

[Denver]

And England doesn't?... :joker:

Theresa has yet to make many promises that she will fail to deliver.

Also who calls 2 once in a lifetime referendums in the space of a 3 or 4 years

[user104658]

Dont try and bait me like you do with everyone else as it wont work

Bait you into what?

[Denver]

Bait you into what?

To say things to you so you can hit the report button.

Oh i know all about the games

[user104658]

To say things to you so you can hit the report button.

Oh i know all about the games

I don't report posts. :shrug:

[Kizzy]

I'll do it for you if you're scared TS :)

[DemolitionRed]

Theresa has yet to make many promises that she will fail to deliver.

Also who calls 2 once in a lifetime referendums in the space of a 3 or 4 years

A person who has the perfect opportunity to do so?

[Cherie]

A person who has the perfect opportunity to do so?

What's perfect about it, they have basically gone back on their "once in a generation" claim as well alienating a lot of the voters who voted No just under 3 years ago, as a leave voter I'm surprised you think it's a good idea to stick with the EU in all honesty

[user104658]

What's perfect about it, they have basically gone back on their "once in a generation" claim as well alienating a lot of the voters who voted No just under 3 years ago, as a leave voter I'm surprised you think it's a good idea to stick with the EU in all honesty

Does being pro-independence for Scotland necessarily mean thinking it's a good idea to stick with the EU? I personally (at this point) am undecided on the issue of full EU membership for Scotland. I think Brexit will prove to be a disaster, but a disaster not just for the UK but the whole of the EU. With the way the world is going, I think the EU's days are numbered. I think at this point, the better scenario is a massively scaled back Europe that has a strong single market trading agreement but fewer other ties.

However all of this is irrelevant to the Scottish Indy issue. I don't believe that Scotland can EVER thrive under Westminster, and especially Tory, rule and I don't realistically see a shift in power there for a long, long time. I think any "benefits" will be systematically removed over the coming decades and any and all resources that Scotland does have currently will be plundered by London until independence IS impossible.

In short, I think IN OR OUT of the EU, Scotland needs to be out from under the London thumb as soon as possible to secure any future that doesn't look more and more bleak by the year.

[Greg!]

This is a really good article and explains why the "Scotland would have a massive deficit that it couldn't afford" arguments isn't true.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/the-truth-independent-scotland-accept-10007763#ICID=sharebar_facebook

[jaxie]

This is a really good article and explains why the "Scotland would have a massive deficit that it couldn't afford" arguments isn't true.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/the-truth-independent-scotland-accept-10007763#ICID=sharebar_facebook

Scotland does have a massive deficit already due to its welfare spending. That's a matter of public record. :shrug:

[user104658]

Scotland does have a massive deficit already due to its welfare spending. That's a matter of public record. :shrug:

It doesn't have a "massive" deficit, and the deficit that does exist is not caused by welfare spending. Also, the deficit that is constantly being quoted is the deficit whilst in the UK with tax revenue being drained by the needlessly large UK military, Trident, the City of London, etc... it is FAR smaller when those things are taken out of the equation.

I do personally think that some things are over-the-top for various reasons, e.g. I think free prescriptions across the board are actually problematic (with over-prescription, and people filling prescriptions that they won't even use) and the English system is more or less fine there (sort of means tested; Tax Credits recipients get free prescriptions) although I would also advocate heavily subsidizing prescriptions for anyone who requires life-long medication rather than one off prescriptions.

Veering off topic there. What I am basically pointing out is that if you strip away a lot of the "UK spending" the deficit is far less than reported, and that there ARE other cuts that can be "safely" made without hacking away at welfare or other essentials, ESPECIALLY in a smaller country that doesn't have the same "bloating" problems that the wider UK has.

[Kizzy]

Scotland does have a massive deficit already due to its welfare spending. That's a matter of public record. :shrug:

Is it? let's see it then.

[jaxie]

Does being pro-independence for Scotland necessarily mean thinking it's a good idea to stick with the EU? I personally (at this point) am undecided on the issue of full EU membership for Scotland. I think Brexit will prove to be a disaster, but a disaster not just for the UK but the whole of the EU. With the way the world is going, I think the EU's days are numbered. I think at this point, the better scenario is a massively scaled back Europe that has a strong single market trading agreement but fewer other ties.

However all of this is irrelevant to the Scottish Indy issue. I don't believe that Scotland can EVER thrive under Westminster, and especially Tory, rule and I don't realistically see a shift in power there for a long, long time. I think any "benefits" will be systematically removed over the coming decades and any and all resources that Scotland does have currently will be plundered by London until independence IS impossible.

In short, I think IN OR OUT of the EU, Scotland needs to be out from under the London thumb as soon as possible to secure any future that doesn't look more and more bleak by the year.

Well yes it does mean sticking with the EU because that is Sturgeons argument for having another referendum that Scotland is being taken from the marvel's of the EU without it's consent. If you don't want to be in the EU now then what is your excuse for calling for another referendum?

You say Brexit is a disaster but the EUs days are numbered weren't you pro EU all the way last week?

[user104658]

Well yes it does mean sticking with the EU because that is Sturgeons argument for having another referendum that Scotland is being taken from the marvel's of the EU without it's consent. If you don't want to be in the EU now then what is your excuse for calling for another referendum?

MY excuse? Well, it's not me calling it. But I guess the fact that England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes, would be a good enough reason to re-examine the idea of splitting away. You're not going to try to pretend that England (or the world) is the same place as it was in 2014, surely?

[jaxie]

MY excuse? Well, it's not me calling it. But I guess the fact that England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes, would be a good enough reason to re-examine the idea of splitting away. You're not going to try to pretend that England (or the world) is the same place as it was in 2014, surely?

Your prejudices are showing. You obviously have a lack of first hand knowledge about England. How lovely I won't lower myself to call all the Scots names, I'll leave the lowering and name calling to you.

[Kizzy]

Theresa has yet to make many promises that she will fail to deliver.

Also who calls 2 once in a lifetime referendums in the space of a 3 or 4 years

Oh I don't doubt there will be more lies, that's inevitable.

The reason for the 2nd referendum is clear, if Scotland were taking England and the rest of the UK out of Europe then we would have surely done the same had we voted to remain.

[Cherie]

Well yes it does mean sticking with the EU because that is Sturgeons argument for having another referendum that Scotland is being taken from the marvel's of the EU without it's consent. If you don't want to be in the EU now then what is your excuse for calling for another referendum?

You say Brexit is a disaster but the EUs days are numbered weren't you pro EU all the way last week?



:hehe: I find it quite funny that democracy must be upheld in the UK over the Brexit vote, even though the percentages were very small between yes and no, yet democracy in Scotland can be overturned cos its better for Scotland innit, even though the no vote was quite substantial despite dropping the voter age and doing everything possible to achieve a yes vote :laugh:

[jaxie]

Oh I don't doubt there will be more lies, that's inevitable.

The reason for the 2nd referendum is clear, if Scotland were taking England and the rest of the UK out of Europe then we would have surely done the same had we voted to remain.

More lies? What lies has she told already. Let's have a list?

[Cherie]

At least we are getting to the nub of it now for the pro Indys its nothing to do with Europe or remaining part of the EU it all boils down to an opportunity and Brexit was a gift to the SNP they could only dream about. :hee:

[user104658]

Your prejudices are showing. You obviously have a lack of first hand knowledge about England. How lovely I won't lower myself to call all the Scots names, I'll leave the lowering and name calling to you.

My wife is English, I lived in England for 3 years, and I am in England several times a year. :idc:

I'm not prejudiced against English people, not at all, but there is an isolationist shift occurring in mainstream UK politics that is ... ... distasteful? Would that be a polite way to put it? I don't think it's strange to want to be disassociated from that.

[Alf]

MY excuse? Well, it's not me calling it. But I guess the fact that England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes, would be a good enough reason to re-examine the idea of splitting away. You're not going to try to pretend that England (or the world) is the same place as it was in 2014, surely?They've really done a number on you, stop listening to them, they're making you paranoid.

[jaxie]

[/B]


:hehe: I find it quite funny that democracy must be upheld in the UK over the Brexit vote, even though the percentages were very small between yes and no, yet democracy in Scotland can be overturned cos its better for Scotland innit, even though the no vote was quite substantial despite dropping the voter age and doing everything possible to achieve a yes vote :laugh:

Ikr, and the claims that Scotland is so hard done by in the UK. I don't know if it's naivety, ignorance or delusion. :shrug:

[jaxie]

My wife is English, I lived in England for 3 years, and I am in England several times a year. :idc:

I'm not prejudiced against English people, not at all, but there is an isolationist shift occurring in mainstream UK politics that is ... ... distasteful? Would that be a polite way to put it? I don't think it's strange to want to be disassociated from that.

Oh deary me, I guess that makes you an expert on the rest of us xenophobes then.

[user104658]

Ikr, and the claims that Scotland is so hard done by in the UK. I don't know if it's naivety, ignorance or delusion. :shrug:

I find the hypocrisy of those who are all for Brexit and yet oppose Scottish Independence quite hilarious. Unless you are suggesting that the UK was "hard done by" within the EU? Hmmm.

But no. Brexit voters seem to FULLY understand the importance of autonomy and the right and ability of the UK to make it's own way in the world, even if it means more austerity, cuts, weakening the pound... it's all worth it not to be controlled by another larger entity.

"BUT NOT FOR YOU Scotland you need the strong shoulders of the UK! Hush hush quiet down now."

:shrug:

[Niamh.]

My wife is English, I lived in England for 3 years, and I am in England several times a year. :idc:

I'm not prejudiced against English people, not at all, but there is an isolationist shift occurring in mainstream UK politics that is ... ... distasteful? Would that be a polite way to put it? I don't think it's strange to want to be disassociated from that.

It isn't just England though, the US is going down that road too. It's definitely fear driven I think and people like Donald Trump/Nigel Farage etc capitalising on that and exploiting it for their own gains

[Northern Monkey]

:omgno: Well this has caused me to completely rethink everything! I thought I had a pretty good grasp on it, but I hadn't realised that the all-knowing "some lady on Daily Politics" was saying that there would be extreme austerity measures :worry:. That is concerning.
:joker:

She seemed quite important and she was Scottish.


Andrew Neil doesn't just have any old riff raff on.

[user104658]

Oh deary me, I guess that makes you an expert on the rest of us xenophobes then.

I quite clearly did not say that, I was countering your suggestion that I have "a lack of first hand knowledge about England", that I am prejudiced against England, and that I am name-calling. A list of "facts" about me that you apparently pulled directly from your own arsehole.

[Northern Monkey]

Was it Kezia dugdale by any chance bc that's her catchphrase and she says that all the time. UGH she annoys me to no end

It could well have been.She had funny front teeth.

[jaxie]

I find the hypocrisy of those who are all for Brexit and yet oppose Scottish Independence quite hilarious. Unless you are suggesting that the UK was "hard done by" within the EU? Hmmm.

But no. Brexit voters seem to FULLY understand the importance of autonomy and the right and ability of the UK to make it's own way in the world, even if it means more austerity, cuts, weakening the pound... it's all worth it not to be controlled by another larger entity.

"BUT NOT FOR YOU Scotland you need the strong shoulders of the UK! Hush hush quiet down now."

:shrug:

The EU forced Ireland to keep having referendum on the Lisbon treaty until they got the answer they wanted. The UK isn't doing the same thing to Scotland. I see no hypocrisy there.

[user104658]

It isn't just England though, the US is going down that road too. It's definitely fear driven I think and people like Donald Trump/Nigel Farage etc capitalising on that and exploiting it for their own gains

I used to think it was fear driven, that people's opinions were being twisted an coloured by needless fear, but I've started to worry if the ugly underbelly of the issue isn't actually something quite different.

These people's opinions aren't "changing" out of fear... the climate of fear has lead to an acceptance of views that quite blatantly already existed. The reactions aren't "scary things are happening and I'm worried"... it's "OMG yaaaay people are allowed to say crappy things about people who aren't like us now, I've always wanted to do this but it wasn't allowed for ages but now everyone is doing it so I can too!"

[user104658]

The EU forced Ireland to keep having referendum on the Lisbon treaty until they got the answer they wanted. The UK isn't doing the same thing to Scotland. I see no hypocrisy there.

You think that the UK is better off being independent from the EU even if it means a financial loss.

You think that Scotland should be happy being under London rule if it means financial gain.

That is quite clear hypocrisy.

[Niamh.]

The EU forced Ireland to keep having referendum on the Lisbon treaty until they got the answer they wanted. The UK isn't doing the same thing to Scotland. I see no hypocrisy there.

Well we had it twice :laugh: but yeah that was annoying at the time

[Niamh.]

I used to think it was fear driven, that people's opinions were being twisted an coloured by needless fear, but I've started to worry if the ugly underbelly of the issue isn't actually something quite different.

These people's opinions aren't "changing" out of fear... the climate of fear has lead to an acceptance of views that quite blatantly already existed. The reactions aren't "scary things are happening and I'm worried"... it's "OMG yaaaay people are allowed to say crappy things about people who aren't like us now, I've always wanted to do this but it wasn't allowed for ages but now everyone is doing it so I can too!"

hhhmmm I think it's probably a bit of both

[jaxie]

I quite clearly did not say that, I was countering your suggestion that I have "a lack of first hand knowledge about England", that I am prejudiced against England, and that I am name-calling. A list of "facts" about me that you apparently pulled directly from your own arsehole.

So you didn't call most of the English Xenophobes then? I pulled it from you, you typed it.

[Kizzy]

More lies? What lies has she told already. Let's have a list?

Google is your friend.

[jaxie]

Is it? let's see it then.

As I've told you before, try Mr Google.

[user104658]

hhhmmm I think it's probably a bit of both

I think it's just getting to me lately... I used to have a policy of a 24h ban from the shop if old men started airing their sectarian or homophobic **** openly and a permanent ban if they kept doing it but these days we just have to turn a blind eye as we'd have lost half of our regulars. And that obviously has nothing at all to do with terrorism or immigration fears. It's age-old prejudices that are not related to nationality, that as a society we managed to establish as not really being acceptable anymore, but in the last year there's a very clear attitude of "hehe yasss I can say whatever I want now". Turns out a large chunk of people are just genuinely nasty bigots. People who I would never have thought it of and actually liked some of. :shrug:

[jaxie]

Google is your friend.

Indeed but Teresa Mays lies doesn't bring up anything much so can you be more specific? You will have a lot more luck with your search for Scotland's deficit.

[user104658]

So you didn't call most of the English Xenophobes then? I pulled it from you, you typed it.

If you can quote it I'll paypal you £100.

[Kizzy]

I used to think it was fear driven, that people's opinions were being twisted an coloured by needless fear, but I've started to worry if the ugly underbelly of the issue isn't actually something quite different.

These people's opinions aren't "changing" out of fear... the climate of fear has lead to an acceptance of views that quite blatantly already existed. The reactions aren't "scary things are happening and I'm worried"... it's "OMG yaaaay people are allowed to say crappy things about people who aren't like us now, I've always wanted to do this but it wasn't allowed for ages but now everyone is doing it so I can too!"

That's true, that is exactly what is happening... Those people have renamed hate speech as free speech however.
Notice how there is a backlash against universities that won't allow alt right speakers? They are being attacked for their refusal to allow 'free speech' those accusers know how important it is to poison young minds early, it's a very important time for them.

[Denver]

You think that the UK is better off being independent from the EU even if it means a financial loss.

You think that Scotland should be happy being under London rule if it means financial gain.

That is quite clear hypocrisy.
Of course they are

Who would want to be part of something on its last legs

[user104658]

Who would want to be part of something on its last legs

So you DO think Scottish independence is a good idea, then. :hee:

[jaxie]

If you can quote it I'll paypal you £100.

It's very cowardly to delete your comments. I have no need nor desire for your money.

[Denver]

So you DO think Scottish independence is a good idea, then. :hee:

If they want to go and destroy themselves to be part of the EU which will collapse as soon as France vote out then they can.

Once they leave the UK they won't be coming back

[Niamh.]

It's very cowardly to delete your comments. I have no need nor desire for your money.

He didn't delete any of his comments on this thread

[Kizzy]

Indeed but Teresa Mays lies doesn't bring up anything much so can you be more specific? You will have a lot more luck with your search for Scotland's deficit.

It brings up enough to prove it is an ongoing occurrence though and I'm happy that vindicates my accusation.

What if Scotland has a deficit? England has a deficit in the trillions and there is no worry about them being an independent country, it would be hypocritical if that were the only reason.

[user104658]

It's very cowardly to delete your comments.

Fake news; you can see at the bottom of the post if it has been edited. Also you quoted it the first time. Have I also altered YOUR post?

Or perhaps, have you just realised that I didn't say it so are now trying to pretend that I've "deleted it"? Even though it would be quite clearly labelled as edited - with a time stamp to boot - if I had? :joker:

Come on. A little more work required here, this is just lazy :nono:.

[Livia]

Please God give them another referendum and let's be done with this constant whining and bickering. In fact, let the English have a referendum to see whether we want them to continue to be a part of the UK. Let them pay their own way and let Nicola Sturgeon lead them. But once they're out, they're out. They can't come back in a couple of years for another go.

[Denver]

Please God give them another referendum and let's be done with this constant whining and bickering. In fact, let the English have a referendum to see whether we want them to continue to be a part of the UK. Let them pay their own way and let Nicola Sturgeon lead them. But once they're out, they're out. They can't come back in a couple of years for another go.

As I said the Scottish will be the first to cry when they can't walk into the UK as they please and potentially have visa's rejected

[user104658]

In fact, let the English have a referendum to see whether we want them to continue to be a part of the UK.


Yes plz. It will be an overwhelming "yaaarrrr get them out", both achieving independence for Scotland and proving my earlier point about English isolationism. Two birds, one lovely stone.

[Denver]

The Scottish need to realise that Sturgeon doesn't care about them she only cares about being a prime minister and she will do anything to get it including telling lies to the people

[Kizzy]

Yes plz. It will be an overwhelming "yaaarrrr get them out", both achieving independence for Scotland and proving my earlier point about English isolationism. Two birds, one lovely stone.

Erm she doesn't speak for the English... Just as many would be emigrating to Scotland.
Mind you like rats deserting a sinking ship I hope the weight at the top doesn't flip little Britain. :joker:

[jaxie]

Fake news; you can see at the bottom of the post if it has been edited. Also you quoted it the first time. Have I also altered YOUR post?

Or perhaps, have you just realised that I didn't say it so are now trying to pretend that I've "deleted it"? Even though it would be quite clearly labelled as edited - with a time stamp to boot - if I had? :joker:

Come on. A little more work required here, this is just lazy :nono:.

It's clear what you said TS and I'm as disappointed in you as you are in the bigots you were chatting about.

[user104658]

The Scottish need to realise that Sturgeon doesn't care about them she only cares about being a prime minister and she will do anything to get it including telling lies to the people

Well, I suppose you do have experience of a PM who would lie through her teeth in order to gain or stay in power...

http://i67.tinypic.com/2i0yrlv.jpg

:hehe:

[Livia]

Yes plz. It will be an overwhelming "yaaarrrr get them out", both achieving independence for Scotland and proving my earlier point about English isolationism. Two birds, one lovely stone.

Oh please, TS. Most English people couldn't care less whether Scotland stays or goes. In Scotland, however, the anti-English feeling is just a strong as it always was... for years and years and years.... Please don't try to say the English are anti-Scottish. It's definitely the other way around. And it's tedious and old.

[Kizzy]

The Scottish need to realise that Sturgeon doesn't care about them she only cares about being a prime minister and she will do anything to get it including telling lies to the people

It's worked here for long enough ...who would blame her?

[Livia]

Well, I suppose you do have experience of a PM who would lie through her teeth in order to gain or stay in power...

http://i67.tinypic.com/2i0yrlv.jpg

:hehe:

Unlike Sturgeon, who is... perfect. Right?

[Alf]

I think it's just getting to me lately... I used to have a policy of a 24h ban from the shop if old men started airing their sectarian or homophobic **** openly and a permanent ban if they kept doing it but these days we just have to turn a blind eye as we'd have lost half of our regulars. And that obviously has nothing at all to do with terrorism or immigration fears. It's age-old prejudices that are not related to nationality, that as a society we managed to establish as not really being acceptable anymore, but in the last year there's a very clear attitude of "hehe yasss I can say whatever I want now". Turns out a large chunk of people are just genuinely nasty bigots. People who I would never have thought it of and actually liked some of. :shrug:There's a lot more things to get angry about than the words of everyday people in the West.

People who do use racist language to another person, do it because they know it will make the person angry, and they do it to insult. Exactly the same reason people go around calling people, bigots, xenophobes ect. It's done to insult.

No difference, words are words, all words have meaning and history behind them.

Trying to defend one certain group of people from insults but not defending another group, isn't equality.

[Denver]

Well, I suppose you do have experience of a PM who would lie through her teeth in order to gain or stay in power...

http://i67.tinypic.com/2i0yrlv.jpg

:hehe:

She may have voted in but Britain didn't.

She has to do what the voters want and they wanted Brexit so I don't get how she is lying

[Kizzy]

Unlike Sturgeon, who is... perfect. Right?

During the Scottish referendum did she vote no then?..

[Denver]

It's worked here for long enough ...who would blame her?

The only reason Cameron had a second term was because labour had a useless idiot in charge then they go and replace him with another

[user104658]

It's clear what you said TS

It apparently isn't. And since you're not going to quote it, I'll do it for you. You're referring to this;

England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes.


You took that statement and selectively rephrased it into;

So you didn't call most of the English Xenophobes then? I pulled it from you, you typed it.

I have to wonder if you've been taking lessons? This "rewriting other people's words with a twist to suit a different agenda" thing seems to be becoming a bit of a trend :think:.

If you open a bag of sugar and notice that it is crawling with ants, you might say "Ugh! This bag is full of ants!". Do you mean that it is literally a bag of ants? No. Do you mean that there are more ants than sugar? No. So you don't mean that "Most of the content of this bag is ANTS!" when you state that the bag is full of ants. I maintain that England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes. I do NOT mean that I think MOST English people are xenophobes. I didn't say it. You imagined that I did, but you're incorrect.

Niamh is right that it's not just England, to be fair, it's the entire Western political world but the key word here is bolstered, as I've covered in other posts.

[user104658]

She may have voted in but Britain didn't.

She has to do what the voters want and they wanted Brexit so I don't get how she is lying

She's bleating about it being a good thing when she quite clearly doesn't think it is and never thought it was. She's playing along with the popular vote because she doesn't want to hand over power to someone who actually agrees with it. She likes being PM and will put on any mask necessary to continue being PM. :nono:

[user104658]

Oh please, TS. Most English people couldn't care less whether Scotland stays or goes. In Scotland, however, the anti-English feeling is just a strong as it always was... for years and years and years.... Please don't try to say the English are anti-Scottish. It's definitely the other way around. And it's tedious and old.

Have you lived in both, Livia?

[jaxie]

It apparently isn't. And since you're not going to quote it, I'll do it for you. You're referring to this;




You took that statement and selectively rephrased it into;



I have to wonder if you've been taking lessons? This "rewriting other people's words with a twist to suit a different agenda" thing seems to be becoming a bit of a trend :think:.

If you open a bag of sugar and notice that it is crawling with ants, you might say "Ugh! This bag is full of ants!". Do you mean that it is literally a bag of ants? No. Do you mean that there are more ants than sugar? No. So you don't mean that "Most of the content of this bag is ANTS!" when you state that the bag is full of ants. I maintain that England is imploding into a harder-right isolationist mess, full of bolstered xenophobes. I do NOT mean that I think MOST English people are xenophobes. I didn't say it. You imagined that I did, but you're incorrect.

Niamh is right that it's not just England, to be fair, it's the entire Western political world but the key word here is bolstered, as I've covered in other posts.

No agenda here TS. I was on a device where I couldn't select and copy the phrase. It must be difficult living with such paranoia.

[user104658]

No agenda here TS. I was on a device where I couldn't select and copy the phrase. It must be difficult living with such paranoia.
Was it also a device that falsely told you I had deleted a comment?

[jaxie]

Was it also a device that falsely told you I had deleted a comment?

No that was human error, my mistake. For some reason my tablet won't let me select segments of text.

[Cherie]

Not Jaxie exposed as a human :eek:

[Niamh.]

:joker:

[jaxie]

Not Jaxie exposed as a human :eek:

The scandal!

[arista]

Feck Me he is back live on TV News
G.Brown and his tricks in his 3rd option.

Tell him to stand still

http://e3.365dm.com/17/03/750x563/b83c2af49acbd5f33f0981d92e8779b192a492ffdf7fff763a 50d7c0286ab9dc_3911791.jpg?20170317230532

http://news.sky.com/story/gordon-brown-intervenes-with-third-option-for-scotland-10805675

[user104658]

I was reading about Brown's proposals this morning. It's not that they're necessarily bad, it's that if anyone falls for the same trick twice they are a ****ing idiot. Brown secured the "no" win last time by drawing up a "deal" for more powers, most of which was thrown straight in the bin the day after the vote. If it's not something legally binding, without scope for wriggling out of it, then I'm just not interested.


However he does raise a valid point about Brexit that I hadn't thought of before. What happens to all of the areas of legislation that used to be regional that the EU took control of after Brexit? As things stand, if the things currently controlled by Brussels transfer directly to Westminster, it will actually give Westminster a level of power and control that is unprecedented in the history of the UK.

[arista]

His plan can not work
the PM does agree with that twat

[user104658]

His plan can not work
the PM does agree with that twat
The plan is to convince gullible voters that they'll get something, influence the vote, then scrap it.

That plan clearly can and does work; it worked for them last time :idc:.

[arista]

"worked for them last time"

Yes when the UK was in the EU
we will so get out that mess
this time you get the €uro

and we are free of you UPTIGHT Scotts

[Brillopad]

She may have voted in but Britain didn't.

She has to do what the voters want and they wanted Brexit so I don't get how she is lying

I agree. She is simply doing her job to the best of her ability.

[Kizzy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7G7whVWkAAUGWV.jpg

Could this statement be any more hypocritical?....


http://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/17/no-one-can-quite-believe-theresa-mays-column-times-today-just-trolling-us-now-image/

[user104658]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7G7whVWkAAUGWV.jpg

Could this statement be any more hypocritical?....


http://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/17/no-one-can-quite-believe-theresa-mays-column-times-today-just-trolling-us-now-image/

It's hilarious, we still don't know what Brexit is going to look like 8 months AFTER the vote :joker:. No idea.

To be fair to ol' Theresa though, she might not be being a hypocrite (with this at least) since, as we know, she was against Brexit too [emoji23]

[arista]

Now its the Scottish SNP Lady Live
too much clapping
after just a few fecking words

[Cherie]

Scottish Parliament have voted for a 2nd vote, quelle surprise :idc:

[ebandit]

https://s19.postimg.org/urhht7c5v/image.png

...farewell scotland.................................

Mark L

[Cherie]

https://s19.postimg.org/urhht7c5v/image.png

...farewell scotland.................................

Mark L

Looks quite nice :hehe:

[Beso]

What a waste of time and energy.

It will be blocked and sturgeon and her ridiculous party will use that block to play on the anti english idiots anger and rage at the english to spread more hate and division at a time the country needs to come together.

Parhetic and predictable.
.sit down and shut up sturgeon you are hapless at the day job and this is merely an effort to deflect that fact.

[Greg!]

loving the fumes! :joker:

[Amy Jade]

Bye then...

[joeysteele]

I wish Nicola Sturgeon the best of luck with this.
I hope when the referendum comes,after the Westminster govt. decide to stop dictating and allow one.

I hope the Scots this time vote for independence too.

I'll be happily settled in Ireland and it will be sad to watch the break up of the United Kingdom for sure but most of England's MPs dictating across the UK is no amicable or compromising way to govern any Nations.

[Denver]

They are not allowed one

[arista]

http://e3.365dm.com/17/03/736x414/91cd65538881e1fb8342ec46ba7db6edc4f2b4d63315095834 9e5ac29204661e_3918838.jpg?20170328171056
In a couple of years fella


http://news.sky.com/story/scotlands-mps-back-independence-referendum-10816685

[arista]

Scottish Parliament have voted for a 2nd vote, quelle surprise :idc:


How Nice Cherie

[MTVN]

The SNP lack a majority in Holyrood and needed the Greens to get this through. The Greens said there should only be a second referendum if 1 million people sign a petition for it and public demand was irresistible which is clearly not the case

[Greg!]

yeah and then Brexit happened

[Cherie]

yeah and then Brexit happened

59/69 hardly a landslide

[MTVN]

yeah and then Brexit happened

I can accept that Brexit does meet the SNP criteria of 'a material change of circumstances' for a second referendum (though I still find their actions cynical), however there has clearly not been a 1m petition or the irresistible demand for a referendum that the Greens set as their criteria

[Greg!]

It was made policy by their members recently I believe, so they're well within their rights to vote for it. Also even if they had abstained, the bill still would have passed without their support

[MTVN]

Lib Dems are the most pro-EU party out there and they voted against the referendum because they appreciate that a Remain vote in the EU referendum was not intended as a green light to the SNP to pursue independence again

[Greg!]

The Lib Dems are sellouts and hypocrites so I'm not really bothered about their opinion

[MTVN]

Point remains that its misleading for the SNP to equate supporting Remain in the referendum with supporting Scottish independence, obviously Scottish Labour and the Scottish Tories also wanted to stay in the EU. Whatever the case though I accept that the Scottish parliament has approved this and so a second referendum should take place, the timing is still a matter of debate though

[ebandit]

The Lib Dems are sellouts and hypocrites so I'm not really bothered about their opinion

this sounds like nicola sturgeon when a result...........does not go her
way

............toys.................oot!

Mark L

[Denver]

Sturgeon has no idea what she is doing

[Greg!]

Spain's foreign minister has confirmed that Spain would NOT block Scotland from joining the EU https://stv.tv/news/politics/1384635-spain-would-not-block-independent-scotland-joining-eu/

[Denver]

And the UK will block Gibraltar from joining Spain

[Kizzy]

Spain's foreign minister has confirmed that Spain would NOT block Scotland from joining the EU https://stv.tv/news/politics/1384635-spain-would-not-block-independent-scotland-joining-eu/

Oohhh things are about to get interesting...

[arista]

SNP on the News again today Brexit Day
demanding Another Referendum.

SNP you can not have one
Johnson PM has said NO



Give it a rest
Up There , will you

[Tom4784]

SNP on the News again today Brexit Day
demanding Another Referendum.

SNP you can not have one
Johnson PM has said NO



Give it a rest
Up There , will you

Not Brexiters opposing democracy when it suits them when they've been spouting that not getting their way would be undemocratic for the past four years.

[Mystic Mock]

Not Brexiters opposing democracy when it suits them when they've been spouting that not getting their way would be undemocratic for the past four years.

This.

[arista]

Not Brexiters opposing democracy when it suits them when they've been spouting that not getting their way would be undemocratic for the past four years.

No Johnson has stated
that the Scottish Referendum of 18 September 2014
was for a lifetime.

Yes 1,617,989 (44.70%)
No 2,001,926 (55.30%)


Case Closed

[arista]

Any Questions Radio4

Was in Scotland

They said it is 10 years ago
when they failed to win a vote.


Of course the UK Government
says no more for them..............................