Ken Livingston calls disciplinary hearing 'unfair'

[arista]

Its like
Fawlty Towers
do not mention the war.....

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ken-livingston-makes-fresh-hitler-claims-on-his-way-to-court-for-hearing-on-nazi-comments-a3503156.html


"Hitler" a word in the Labour party
many say he must never say.



ITV1 London News
say tomorrow he is expecting to be
kicked out of the Labour Party.

[Livia]

Anti-semitism in Labour? Surely not................... He really should keep his mouth shut.

[Northern Monkey]

He's an idiot.Why is he digging himself deeper and deeper?He's giving them no choice but to expel him.

[Kizzy]

If what he is saying is historically correct then where is the problem?...Can it be backed up with facts, if so how can he be expelled for stating what he has, I don't understand :/

[arista]

If what he is saying is historically correct then where is the problem?...Can it be backed up with facts, if so how can he be expelled for stating what he has, I don't understand :/

Correct Kizzy
its the "Hitler" word
that got him sacked
from LBC radio, a few years ago

same words he used there

[the truth]

If what he is saying is historically correct then where is the problem?...Can it be backed up with facts, if so how can he be expelled for stating what he has, I don't understand :/

because political correctness has meant nothing can be openly discussed anymore....the irony is labour invented it, now it is destroying them

[Niamh.]

because political correctness has meant nothing can be openly discussed anymore....the irony is labour invented it, now it is destroying them

The Labour party invented Political Correctness? Well you learn something new everyday

[the truth]

The Labour party invented Political Correctness? Well you learn something new everyday

I hope you do

[Niamh.]

I hope you do

Back at ya :douf:

[Northern Monkey]

Why is he even waffling on about Hitler?It's only getting him in hot water.What was the context of why he needed to bring Hitler up?Why is he still talking about Hitler?Idgi

[the truth]

Why is he even waffling on about Hitler?It's only getting him in hot water.What was the context of why he needed to bring Hitler up?Why is he still talking about Hitler?Idgi

I really cant remember , lets be honest we're all too scared to even discuss it

[Kizzy]

Why is he even waffling on about Hitler?It's only getting him in hot water.What was the context of why he needed to bring Hitler up?Why is he still talking about Hitler?Idgi

Why can't Hitler be discussed... Are we not to learn and grow as a society by examining past mistakes and atrocities?

Free speech?

[the truth]

Why can't Hitler be discussed... Are we not to learn and grow as a society by examining past mistakes and atrocities?

Free speech?

we should be able to discuss anything and everything...the hysterical media prevent this allied to the evil that is political correctness

[Northern Monkey]

Why can't Hitler be discussed... Are we not to learn and grow as a society by examining past mistakes and atrocities?

Free speech?Just wondering what it was all about and if its really worth getting into trouble with his party.I mean he's not in legal trouble it's something that seems to be against party rules.I think we should be able to talk about everything but i suppose if you work for an organisation that doesn't want you making remarks that they deem inflammatory then you keep schtum if you don't want to get into bother with them.
Now he knows its an issue and he's still going on about it.
Is what he's saying actually accurate?Is he using it to try and excuse something?
Why is it a problem within the party?

[the truth]

Just wondering what it was all about and if its really worth getting into trouble with his party.I mean he's not in legal trouble it's something that seems to be against party rules.I think we should be able to talk about everything but i suppose if you work for an organisation that doesn't want you making remarks that they deem inflammatory then you keep schtum if you don't want to get into bother with them.
Now he knows its an issue and he's still going on about it.
Is what he's saying actually accurate?Is he using it to try and excuse something?
Why is it a problem within the party?

I THINK hes claiming the nazis wanted a zionist state?

[Northern Monkey]

I THINK hes claiming the nazis wanted a zionist state?

Yeah before WW2.Now is this a true fact?
If not then i could see why it could be offensive.
Is it checkable?

[Livia]

Anyone can talk about Hitler... although if he's introduced into a debate on this forum plenty of people will shout 'Godwin' at you. And if your party is as embroiled in as many anti-Semitism claims as Corbyn's Labour is, you might want to keep your big gob shut.

Rather than me repeating stuff I've said on many other threads, I'll just post this thread from last September...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/mp-ruth-smeeth-ive-never-seen-anti-semitism-in-labour-like-this-2016-9?r=US&IR=T

[DemolitionRed]

If what he is saying is historically correct then where is the problem?...Can it be backed up with facts, if so how can he be expelled for stating what he has, I don't understand :/

Yes and Yes!

The Haavara Agreement can be validated so what Livingstone said was historical fact. I don’t think he should of said it because this was bound to feed the wolves but to call Livingstone anti Semite is ludicrous; his entire life has been spent fighting racism. He’d still be mayor of London if he hadn’t dedicated so much time fighting for small minorities.

This isn’t about Livingstone, its another right wing coup against Corbyn’s Labour party. It’s a smoke screen that's been frenziedly skewed out of all proportion.

[Kizzy]

Anyone can talk about Hitler... although if he's introduced into a debate on this forum plenty of people will shout 'Godwin' at you. And if your party is as embroiled in as many anti-Semitism claims as Corbyn's Labour is, you might want to keep your big gob shut.

Rather than me repeating stuff I've said on many other threads, I'll just post this thread from last September...

http://uk.businessinsider.com/mp-ruth-smeeth-ive-never-seen-anti-semitism-in-labour-like-this-2016-9?r=US&IR=T


Here's a post from last October...

A representative YouGov poll carried out in May 2016 found that Labour voters were no more likely than voters from other parties to express antisemitic attitudes, with UKIP voters demonstrating the highest levels of antisemitism.179 As outlined earlier in this report, a survey of British Jewish people found that almost half of respondents felt that the Green Party is too tolerant of antisemitism (compared with 87% in relation to the Labour Party), 43% think the same of UKIP, 40% of the SNP, and over a third in relation to the Liberal Democrats.180

122.Other political parties have not been immune to accusations of antisemitism, albeit apparently with a smaller number of reported incidents, and with a lower profile. In April 2015, a Conservative candidate for Derby Council was expelled from her Party after she said she would never support “the Jew” Ed Miliband.181 In August 2014, the University College London (UCL) Union investigated the university’s Conservative Society after it was accused of creating a “toxic environment”, with one member reported to have said “Jews own everything, we all know it’s true. I wish I was Jewish, but my nose isn’t long enough”. Media reports suggest that the incident was never investigated by the Conservative Party,182 but it is unclear whether it was ever referred to the Party, and questions have subsequently been raised about the veracity of the complaint.

123.A former Conservative Councillor who defected to the Liberal Democrats after losing his seat, Matthew Gordon Banks, was suspended from his new Party in September after writing on Twitter that “[Tim] Farron’s leadership campaign was organised and funded by London Jews”, adding in a second tweet: “I tried to work with them. Very difficult.”183 The former Liberal Democrat MP David Ward has been accused of antisemitism on several occasions. He was suspended from his Party after accusing “the Jews” of committing atrocities in Palestine,184 and later sent the following tweet: “The big question is–if I lived in #Gaza would I fire a rocket?–probably yes”.185 Baroness Tonge, who now sits in the House of Lords as an independent Liberal Democrat, resigned the Party whip in 2012 after refusing to apologise for saying that “Israel is not going to be there forever”, and has recently attracted fresh criticism for sharing an article that suggested that “Jewish power” was targeting the Labour Party.186 At this year’s autumn conference, the Liberal Democrat Friends of Palestine group was asked to remove Facebook posts that quoted the statement: “The Jews as victim. Always the Jews, only the Jews.” SNP MSP Sandra White apologised “unreservedly” in November 2015 after tweeting an antisemitic image of six piglets (representing the UK and others) suckling at a sow with the word “Rothschild” and the Star of David on it.187 Incidents involving other forms of racism, including Islamophobia, have also affected a number of mainstream parties.

124.Soon after this inquiry was announced, we invited the then Prime Minister, David Cameron, to give oral evidence as Leader of the Conservative Party. On the date in June when he was scheduled to attend, the events leading up to his resignation had been set in motion, and he wrote to the then Committee Chair apologising and stating that he was unable to attend. Rt Hon Patrick McLoughlin MP, the newly-appointed Chairman of the Conservative Party, provided a detailed written submission in early August, and indicated that he would have been happy to give further oral evidence to us.188 We later invited the new Prime Minister on several occasions to give evidence to us in October, but received no formal response until the morning of the scheduled evidence session, when Sir Eric Pickles MP, the UK Special Envoy for Post-Holocaust Issues and former Party Chairman, was nominated to attend as a representative of the Conservative Party.

125.It is very disappointing that the Conservative Party procrastinated for so long, and that both the Leader and Chairman of the Party declined to give evidence on this vital issue, but we are very grateful to Sir Eric for stepping in at the last minute, and value his extensive experience in these matters. He told us that the Conservative Party had had problems (with racism) in the late 1960s, but had learned lessons from this and recognised that it “must have a no tolerance policy with regard to any form of racism”.189 When challenged about the incident at UCL, of which he was unaware, he apologised and said that, on the face of it, the Party should have investigated it; although, as previously mentioned, there is some dispute over the veracity of the complaint itself. Sir Eric denied that he had intended to suggest in his evidence that the Conservative Party was alone in having no ongoing problems with antisemitism among its members, stating that antisemitism is “one of the oldest, most nasty, most evil of all the sins”; that it “comes back”; and that “to suggest for a millisecond that I believe that the Conservative party is free of antisemitism would be a complete bastardisation of what I have just said”

As I said smoke and mirrors, one finger points and there a 3 pointing straight back at as seen here 3 other parties.


http://www.publications.parliament.u...e-006-backlink

[Kizzy]

Yes and Yes!

The Haavara Agreement can be validated so what Livingstone said was historical fact. I don’t think he should of said it because this was bound to feed the wolves but to call Livingstone anti Semite is ludicrous; his entire life has been spent fighting racism. He’d still be mayor of London if he hadn’t dedicated so much time fighting for small minorities.

This isn’t about Livingstone, its another right wing coup against Corbyn’s Labour party. It’s a smoke screen that's been frenziedly skewed out of all proportion.

I know, it's like the antisemitic slurs at the Millibands in the right wing media never happened! :/

[DemolitionRed]

I know, it's like the antisemitic slurs at the Millibands in the right wing media never happened! :/

Yep, its just an orchestrated attack

When you listen to Livingstone, he's talking about the deal made between the Nazi's and the Zionists and he also talks about Hitlers genocidal madness and unacceptable ethnic cleansing. No matter which way I look at this its not anti-Semitism but a historical fact that for some reason we are not supposed to talk about.

[arista]

"This isn’t about Livingstone, its another right wing coup against Corbyn’s Labour party. It’s a smoke screen that's been frenziedly skewed out of all proportion. "


Bang On Right DR

[arista]

Ken was Suspended for one year


SkyNewsHD Live

[Kizzy]

Again remind me why referring to the Haavara agreement puts Labour in disrepute?....

[MTVN]

Astonishingly Labour have not expelled Ken, they have merely suspended him for another year. Oh dear…

Ken says: “I apologise for the offence caused by those Labour MPs who lied and said I said Hitler was a Zionist” and tells ITV: “I don’t think anyone expected this result”.

Reaction:

Campaign Against Anti-Semitism: “This surely represents the death throes of the Labour Party’s long relationship with the Jewish community.”

Holocaust Educational Trust: “This verdict is a slap on the wrist for a serial offender. That a mainstream political party would consider these views to be welcome within their ranks simply demonstrates that antisemitism is not taken as seriously as all other forms of racism and prejudice.”

Jewish Labour Movement: “This is a betrayal of our Party’s values. One year suspension allows for a revolving door for repeat offenders.”

CST: “This decision strengthens real anti-Semites and their fellow travellers, and will leave the Jewish community less confident than ever that Labour is serious in dealing with anti-Semitism.”

Luciana Berger: “A new low for my party this evening. Appalling decision. Why is antisemitism being treated differently from any other form of racism?”

Wes Streeting: “So much for zero tolerance approach to antisemitism – this is a terrible betrayal of Jewish Labour supporters and our values.”

Michael Dugher: “Is the party really saying it knows more about antisemitism than the Chief Rabbi?”

Tulip Siddiq: “Absolutely ridiculous. Why has this man not been expelled?!”

John Woodcock: “This pathetic Livingstone sentence is an important moment Labour members: do we stand for decency against this or are we part of the decay?”

Communities Secretary Sajid Javid: “Astonishing and wrong that Ken Livingstone has not been expelled. His repeated and offensive comments are totally and utterly unacceptable.”

https://order-order.com/2017/04/04/ken-ive-not-expelled/

[DemolitionRed]

Jewish Labour Party members slam decision to suspend Ken Livingstone

http://freespeechonisrael.org.uk/jewish-labour-party-members-slam-decision-suspend-ken-livingstone/

Statement from Jewish Labour Party members who gave evidence in support of Ken Livingstone at his hearing for alleged conduct prejudicial and/or grossly detrimental to the Labour Party.
No justification for claiming all Jews are offended by Nazi/Zionism remarks
Views critical of Zionism are not antisemitic
It is contrary to freedom of expression to ban such opinions.

We are alarmed that the Labour Party’s National Constitutional Committee has bowed to demands for the suspension of Ken Livingstone, excluding him from the life of the party until April 2018.

Having failed to make a case that he was guilty of antisemitic conduct, his accusers alleged that he was nonetheless guilty of conduct grossly detrimental to the party because, according to them, he had upset the UK’s Jewish population. The grounds put forward for this were Ken Livingstone’s references to a temporary agreement prior to World War II, between some Zionist leaders and Hitler’s Nazi Party, to facilitate the emigration of a number of Jews from Germany. The Zionist motivation was to increase the numbers of Jews going to Palestine.

In our evidence to the NCC we explained that those claiming offence on behalf of all Jews have no justification for doing so. Such a claim deliberately ignores the views of large numbers of Jewish people, both in the Labour Party and in society at large. These are people who, like us, find their identity in a different tradition to the Zionist one; or who, while continuing to believe in the Zionist ideal, are deeply uncomfortable about ongoing inroads into free speech and believe that the history of the Zionist movement must be open to scrutiny.

The decision to suspend Ken is mistaken. It is an attempt to protect Israel from criticism, while simultaneously weakening the position of the pro-Palestinian Left in the party. It is the verdict, not Ken Livingstone, that has bought the Labour Party into disrepute.

[DemolitionRed]

Of the many letters sent to the Labour Party from Jewish citizens, this one says it all.

Walter Wolfgang
I am a Jewish member of the Labour Party and was a member of its National Executive Committee from 2006 to 2008. I regard anti-Semitism as an extremely serious issue.

I am 93 years old. I was born in Germany in 1923. My family were persecuted by the Nazis. In 1937, at the age of 13, I left Germany and came to live in Britain. It was the strength of my commitment to Judaism and Jewish ethical values of human equality which caused me to join the Labour Party in 1948.

The Nazis embraced this vile ideology of anti-Semitism and exterminated six million Jews. Allegations of anti-Semitism should be made only when people express hostility to Jewish people because they are Jewish. Such allegations should not be made when this is not the case. It is not anti-Semitic to hold or express views about the government of Israel or about Zionism.

Ken Livingstone has an outstanding record of fighting against racism and anti-Semitism. Labour’s National Constitutional Committee hearing into Ken’s actions is a travesty. His public defence of Naz Shah MP in April 2016 was not offensive and did not involved him in making any concession to anti-Semitism.

Ken Livingstone’s remarks in April 2016 about the Transfer Agreement were broadly correct. Hitler was in favour of Jews leaving Germany for Palestine. The agreements reached between the Nazis and some Zionists are simply indisputable facts.

Advocacy of Jews leaving Palestine was made by some Jews who were Zionist, some non-Jews who were anti-Semitic, by some non-Jews who were friendly and some who were indifferent to Jews. Anti-Semitism is hostility to Jews because of religion, race or ethnicity. It is nothing else. Many Jews, Zionist and non-Zionist – including myself – disagree with the present policy of the Israeli government.

It is evident that Livingstone is being attacked because he supports the Palestinians, and not because he is either offensive or anti-Semitic. He is not guilty of any conduct detrimental to the Labour Party. His suspension was unjustified. Any further disciplinary action would bring the party into disrepute.

[Livia]

Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, has accused his party of failing the Jewish community and bringing “shame on us all”, after a disciplinary panel decided not to expel Ken Livingstone for suggesting Hitler supported Zionism.

Senior party figures, including shadow cabinet ministers, called for the decision to be reviewed after the disciplinary body ruled that Livingstone should be suspended for another year for bringing the party into disrepute.

The decision also caused senior Jewish politicians to question their future in the party, with Lord Levy, the chief fundraiser under Tony Blair, threatening to leave.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/05/ken-livingstone-pressure-mounts-on-labour-to-review-decision

[Livia]

You have to stop being offended and trying to shut down discussions every time that discussion mentions Israel.

Criticizing Israel is not the same as anti-Semitism but we haven't even done that in this thread.

As for suggesting we are the same sort of people who say the Holocaust was made up, how dare you. My husband lost many ancestors in the Holocaust.

I'll tell you what's offensive, shall I? A perfect stranger like you telling me that I have to stop being offended.

And then you go on to be offended yourself.

[Tom4784]

It's a serious mistake to not get rid of him at this point. I think he's more of an idiot than an outright anti-semite but statements like those will hurt the party regardless.

[joeysteele]

I wish Livingstone was careful in what and how he says things.
He must be abundantly clear the media and those with an irrational hate of Labour are ready to pounce on anything like this.

Whether historically right or not,just in this day and age,stop talking about Hitler or anything Nazi related, that seems to be the only way to avoid getting both personally or Party into bother.
UKIP have the same problem with racism,the vast majority of UKIP are not likely racist at all, their haters will always try to tar the Party with the claim however.
As is being done here as to anti semitism with Labour.

The suspension changes nothing, this will be dragged on by those with vendettas against Livingstone and from those who hate Labour anyway.
Had he been expelled, the headlines would have been as bad,even when not true.
That Labour had to expel due to rife anti semitism in its Party.

Again we get to the Chief Rabbi sticking in his gripe again, if the religious leader of Catholics or the Archbishop of Canterbury make political statements,the cry from good numbers is,religious leaders should keep out of politics.
Yet the Chief Rabbi can paint Labour any way he wishes and get solid airtime for it too.

None of this helps,personally I wish Livingstone just gracefully retired.
However it is becoming more and more that even just stating a thought on this issue and other possible contentious issues,people now dare not even explore the topic publicly.

Ridiculous.
Anti semitism is wrong and should be seen as wholly abhorrent, genuine anti semitism that is and not just thoughts and discussion about it.

[the truth]

what exactly has he done wrong. I havent followed this from start to finish so pls excuse my lack of understanding here. Does this basically mean conversations about nazis and hitler are now outlawed? Or is it the context in which hes discussed them? Genuinely bewildered on this

[DemolitionRed]

what exactly has he done wrong. I havent followed this from start to finish so pls excuse my lack of understanding here. Does this basically mean conversations about nazis and hitler are now outlawed? Or is it the context in which hes discussed them? Genuinely bewildered on this

What Livingstone said wasn't anti-anything but because Labour have (unfairly and unnecessarily) been called anti-Semitic in recent years, the press, the Right and that includes Right of Labour quickly picked up on Livingstones use of words.

Zionism is a political ideology that continues to be contested within and beyond Jewish communities. As with any political ideology, it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express positive or negative opinions about it. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. Many strident supporters of Zionism today in Britain and America are right wing Christian fundamentalists who include antiSemites.

Support for Zionism does not imply support for Jews, or for anti-racist attitudes. http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/what-jewish-socialists-are-saying-to-the-labour-partys-chakrabarti-inquiry.

So beside what Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis and Tom Watson proclaim, "Zionism", whatever way we look at it, is not an integral part of Judaism. Many false, distorted charges of antiSemitism have been used as ammunition to damage the Labour Party, in particular, Corbyn, and also to undermine and gag free speech by Labour Party members on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

[DemolitionRed]

]I wish Livingstone was careful in what and how he says things.[/B]
He must be abundantly clear the media and those with an irrational hate of Labour are ready to pounce on anything like this.

Whether historically right or not,just in this day and age,stop talking about Hitler or anything Nazi related, that seems to be the only way to avoid getting both personally or Party into bother.
UKIP have the same problem with racism,the vast majority of UKIP are not likely racist at all, their haters will always try to tar the Party with the claim however.
As is being done here as to anti semitism with Labour.

The suspension changes nothing, this will be dragged on by those with vendettas against Livingstone and from those who hate Labour anyway.
Had he been expelled, the headlines would have been as bad,even when not true.
That Labour had to expel due to rife anti semitism in its Party.

Again we get to the Chief Rabbi sticking in his gripe again, if the religious leader of Catholics or the Archbishop of Canterbury make political statements,the cry from good numbers is,religious leaders should keep out of politics.
Yet the Chief Rabbi can paint Labour any way he wishes and get solid airtime for it too.

None of this helps,personally I wish Livingstone just gracefully retired.
However it is becoming more and more that even just stating a thought on this issue and other possible contentious issues,people now dare not even explore the topic publicly.

Ridiculous.
Anti semitism is wrong and should be seen as wholly abhorrent, genuine anti semitism that is and not just thoughts and discussion about it.

The thing is, how can we be guarded about political correctness over something that is correct politically?
How much information should we teach our history students and should we teach them history that could offend them?

Even on here we have to tiptoe around our thoughts on Zionism just in case we get accused of being anti-Semitic. Like you, I thing anti-Semitism is abhorrent and unacceptable but then I think all racism is unacceptable. I should though, be able to freely state my feelings about Zionism without being demonized for it.

[Brillopad]

The thing is, how can we be guarded about political correctness over something that is correct politically?
How much information should we teach our history students and should we teach them history that could offend them?

Even on here we have to tiptoe around our thoughts on Zionism just in case we get accused of being anti-Semitic. Like you, I thing anti-Semitism is abhorrent and unacceptable but then I think all racism is unacceptable. I should though, be able to freely state my feelings about Zionism without being demonized for it.

What you mean like people have to tip-toe around their thoughts on Islam for fear of being accused of being racists or bigots. Not nice is it.

Political correctness and those that practice it are the biggest zealots and bullies of all.

[DemolitionRed]

What you mean like people have to tip-toe around their thoughts on Islam for fear of being accused of being racists or bigots. Not nice is it.

Political correctness and those that practice it are the biggest zealots and bullies of all.

Islam is a faith, Judaism is a faith... Zionism isn't.

[Brillopad]

Islam is a faith, Judaism is a faith... Zionism isn't.

So faith should not be criticised in your opinion. I feel quite the opposite as a lot of injustice, ignorance and terror is carried out in the name of religion - it should be questioned.

[Kizzy]

Why when tom watson and co are involved do I feel it's more the fact that livingstone is a corbyn supporter that they take greater offence to than his comments?....

What happened to freedom of speech?... I can't here the chimes of PC gone mad, quite the opposite in fact.

[DemolitionRed]

So faith should not be criticised in your opinion. I feel quite the opposite as a lot of injustice, ignorance and terror is carried out in the name of religion - it should be questioned.

You can try and change this all you like but what you are attempting to do is take this away from topic. The reason for Livingstone suspension is because he spoke frankly about Zionism but people who don't like the man tried convincing us all that he was criticising the Jews.

If we want to talk about criticising religion, perhaps we need to start another thread that isn't about Livingstone.

[Brillopad]

You can try and change this all you like but what you are attempting to do is take this away from topic. The reason for Livingstone suspension is because he spoke frankly about Zionism but people who don't like the man tried convincing us all that he was criticising the Jews.

If we want to talk about criticising religion, perhaps we need to start another thread that isn't about Livingstone.

You spoke of being able to speak of your thoughts freely, without having to tip-toe around the subject and without being demonised for doing so, which is what prompted my response. The subject under discussion is not really the issue. The same should apply for most subjects including religion was my point.

[Kizzy]

So faith should not be criticised in your opinion. I feel quite the opposite as a lot of injustice, ignorance and terror is carried out in the name of religion - it should be questioned.

Nobody mention the (holy) war!!!
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dHsg1ES96E4/hqdefault.jpg

[DemolitionRed]

You spoke of being able to speak of your thoughts freely, without having to tip-toe around the subject and without being demonised for doing so, which is what prompted my response. The subject under discussion is not really the issue. The same should apply for most subjects including religion was my point.

But I wasn't talking about religion, I was talking about historic fact. Why do you want to take it down the religious line when its not even relevant to this topic?

I know what you are trying to get at. Why do people have to step around Islam (and good god they don't!) on this site for fear of being called Islamophobe. Well its a complex subject that deserves its own thread so why don't you start one.

[DemolitionRed]

Nobody mention the (holy) war!!!
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dHsg1ES96E4/hqdefault.jpg

This is a little creepy. Tonight we downloaded that very episode :fan:

[the truth]

What Livingstone said wasn't anti-anything but because Labour have (unfairly and unnecessarily) been called anti-Semitic in recent years, the press, the Right and that includes Right of Labour quickly picked up on Livingstones use of words.

Zionism is a political ideology that continues to be contested within and beyond Jewish communities. As with any political ideology, it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express positive or negative opinions about it. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. Many strident supporters of Zionism today in Britain and America are right wing Christian fundamentalists who include antiSemites.

Support for Zionism does not imply support for Jews, or for anti-racist attitudes. http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/what-jewish-socialists-are-saying-to-the-labour-partys-chakrabarti-inquiry.

So beside what Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis and Tom Watson proclaim, "Zionism", whatever way we look at it, is not an integral part of Judaism. Many false, distorted charges of antiSemitism have been used as ammunition to damage the Labour Party, in particular, Corbyn, and also to undermine and gag free speech by Labour Party members on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

It all seems to go back to political correctness destroying free speech...;abour abused it by calling anyone and everyone racist for discussing immigration or radical islamic terrorism and they also labelled everyone sexist if they didnt agree with everyone peddled by radical feminsits...now the tories are using political correctness to accuse labour of racism....both imo are using and abusing the evil that is political correctness in a totally underhand way to label and slander their opponents.

[DemolitionRed]

It all seems to go back to political correctness destroying free speech...;abour abused it by calling anyone and everyone racist for discussing immigration or radical islamic terrorism and they also labelled everyone sexist if they didnt agree with everyone peddled by radical feminsits...now the tories are using political correctness to accuse labour of racism....both imo are using and abusing the evil that is political correctness in a totally underhand way to label and slander their opponents.

We all use the same yard stick but some of us will twist that stick until it no longer resembles a ruler.

Ken Livingstone shouldn't of opened his mouth and said anything about Zionism because he's fully aware of the consequences that have rained down on the Labour Government in recent months.

[Livia]

If it was just comments by Ken Livingstone, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But when you couple it with other insults and comments to Jewish MPs and Labour supporters it is less acceptable. They are not intelligent enough to realise that Israeli and Jewish are two different things. Furthermore, if there's really no problem, why have all these people been suspended by the Labour party?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-anti-semitism-row-full-list-members-suspended-by-party-1558000

Anti-Semitism is not now, and has never been taken very seriously compared to other hate crimes. And if I feel insulted I get told on this forum that I should stop being so offended. Well, I am offended... and until Labour sorts itself out it's harming the whole of British politics because we do not have a solid opposition... and we need one.

[Livia]

We all use the same yard stick but some of us will twist that stick until it no longer resembles a ruler.

Ken Livingstone shouldn't of opened his mouth and said anything about Zionism because he's fully aware of the consequences that have rained down on the Labour Government in recent months.

We don't have a Labour government.

[Kizzy]

If it was just comments by Ken Livingstone, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But when you couple it with other insults and comments to Jewish MPs and Labour supporters it is less acceptable. They are not intelligent enough to realise that Israeli and Jewish are two different things. Furthermore, if there's really no problem, why have all these people been suspended by the Labour party?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-anti-semitism-row-full-list-members-suspended-by-party-1558000

Anti-Semitism is not now, and has never been taken very seriously compared to other hate crimes. And if I feel insulted I get told on this forum that I should stop being so offended. Well, I am offended... and until Labour sorts itself out it's harming the whole of British politics because we do not have a solid opposition... and we need one.

And how do those comments differ from these?

'Other political parties have not been immune to accusations of antisemitism, albeit apparently with a smaller number of reported incidents, and with a lower profile. In April 2015, a Conservative candidate for Derby Council was expelled from her Party after she said she would never support “the Jew” Ed Miliband.181 In August 2014, the University College London (UCL) Union investigated the university’s Conservative Society after it was accused of creating a “toxic environment”, with one member reported to have said “Jews own everything, we all know it’s true. I wish I was Jewish, but my nose isn’t long enough”. Media reports suggest that the incident was never investigated by the Conservative Party,182 but it is unclear whether it was ever referred to the Party, and questions have subsequently been raised about the veracity of the complaint.

123.A former Conservative Councillor who defected to the Liberal Democrats after losing his seat, Matthew Gordon Banks, was suspended from his new Party in September after writing on Twitter that “[Tim] Farron’s leadership campaign was organised and funded by London Jews”, adding in a second tweet: “I tried to work with them. Very difficult.”183 The former Liberal Democrat MP David Ward has been accused of antisemitism on several occasions. He was suspended from his Party after accusing “the Jews” of committing atrocities in Palestine.'

Which is from the link on page 1, it's from information on the parliamentary website from last october, interestingly that page is no longer available to view.... Is it that the current govt would like to whitewash it's own indiscretions and simply push that it is only Labour members/ representatives that tweet/state offensive/damaging remarks?

What do you mean 'sorts itself out'? As Eric Pickles himself stated..


''the Conservative Party had had problems (with racism) in the late 1960s, but had learned lessons from this and recognised that it “must have a no tolerance policy with regard to any form of racism”.189 When challenged about the incident at UCL, of which he was unaware, he apologised and said that, on the face of it, the Party should have investigated it; although, as previously mentioned, there is some dispute over the veracity of the complaint itself. Sir Eric denied that he had intended to suggest in his evidence that the Conservative Party was alone in having no ongoing problems with antisemitism among its members, stating that antisemitism is “one of the oldest, most nasty, most evil of all the sins”; that it “comes back”; and that “to suggest for a millisecond that I believe that the Conservative party is free of antisemitism would be a complete bastardisation of what I have just said”

[Livia]

I worked for the Conservative party. Are there some anti-Semites in there? Yes. A similar amount as in Labour? God, no... Does producing a cut-and-paste job about the Tories make Labour's comments okay? No, of course not. It's unacceptable wherever it originates, but Labour, and Corbynites in particular, are making a hobby of it.

[DemolitionRed]

If it was just comments by Ken Livingstone, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. But when you couple it with other insults and comments to Jewish MPs and Labour supporters it is less acceptable. They are not intelligent enough to realise that Israeli and Jewish are two different things. Furthermore, if there's really no problem, why have all these people been suspended by the Labour party?.

I certainly don’t excuse any racism shown towards Jews but we can’t tar all comments with the same brush.

I think a lot of people have difficulty separating Judaism from Zionism Alex Chalmers is one of them and so are a few who were suspended. As for Naz Shah and Illyas Azis they deserved to be suspended. Azis was particularly ignorant and that ignorance got him in hot water. He certainly doesn’t deserve a voice in the Labour Party and neither does Kirby or Gurbuz who undoubtedly showed racial prejudice.

You can’t be part of a political party and get away with this sort of ridiculous nonsense on social media. On the other hand, we should be able to openly talk about Hamas, Israel and Zionism without insulting Judaism, just as we should be able to talk about ISIS without insulting Islam... Oh hang on though, we do talk about ISIS whilst insulting Islam.


Anti-Semitism is not now, and has never been taken very seriously compared to other hate crimes. And if I feel insulted I get told on this forum that I should stop being so offended. Well, I am offended... and until Labour sorts itself out it's harming the whole of British politics because we do not have a solid opposition... and we need one.

If we are going to come on a forum common for political debate, we must accept that some topics are going to trigger certain people (and I mean either way). If the goal is truth we shouldn’t try to stifle or silence anyone who contributes to that debate. On this board, just like any other board, we often reach a situation where anyone who claims offence is automatically the victim (I’m no innocent here) and the person who insulted us is the abuser (I’ve been accused of that too). That attitude shows a closed-mind to open discussion... I remind myself often! Whatever side of the discussion we are on, we have to accept that opinions will fly in all directions. We can’t discuss anything if we worry about the person who needs to be coddled on the topic.

What I won’t have is someone accusing me of anti-Semitism and suggesting I’m the type who denies the Holocaust. That’s not a stone you threw, it was an effing boulder and it was thrown to harm my opinion and make me look like a Jew hater.

[Northern Monkey]

Well i still don't know if his comments are offensive or not.Maybe ill advised in an organisation that's known for anti-semitism.
I suppose it's like the old fella who wound the clock up in the train station who was overheard talking about immigration.
While you're in a proffessional setting you should probably avoid topics that your organisation don't want you addressing while at work.

[DemolitionRed]

We don't have a Labour government.

freudian slip of the tongue!

[Kizzy]

I worked for the Conservative party. Are there some anti-Semites in there? Yes. A similar amount as in Labour? God, no... Does producing a cut-and-paste job about the Tories make Labour's comments okay? No, of course not. It's unacceptable wherever it originates, but Labour, and Corbynites in particular, are making a hobby of it.

Yes you did, do I feel that makes you slightly biased....yes.

The 'cut and paste job' is an effective way, short of finding Mr Pickles and requesting a taped interview of posting information to the forum.
Of course I don't feel that it's excusable for offensive comments to be tweeted or stated by a representative of a political party, but the suggestion of late that it is somehow institutionally endemic within Labour and it's members is ridiculous.

As you have highlighted yourself my feeling is the antisemitic accusations are a ruse by the anticorbynites, as in it's nothing more than a tool to create a public backlash at this left leaning Labour leader.
I do not feel comfortable that antisemetism is being used in this way.

[smudgie]

Mr. Corbyn can't have been too happy with his friend getting off so lightly if he wants another inquiry.:shrug:

[Kizzy]

Well i still don't know if his comments are offensive or not.Maybe ill advised in an organisation that's known for anti-semitism.
I suppose it's like the old fella who wound the clock up in the train station who was overheard talking about immigration.
While you're in a proffessional setting you should probably avoid topics that your organisation don't want you addressing while at work.

Propaganda -1 people - 0

[DemolitionRed]

Propaganda -1 people - 0

You know what mortifies me; the pure naivety of the British public over this incident. The press and Right wingers, some of who also have no understanding of what Livingstone said, can turn this guy into a sacrificial lamb even though nothing he said was anti-Semitism. They rely on our ignorance folk, this is the bullet they needed to destroy what’s left of the Labour Party.

Corbyn now has to get rid of Ken because there's simply no other way to save himself or his party members. I understand why he's doing it but this has to be a sad day in history.

[arista]

Mr. Corbyn can't have been too happy with his friend getting off so lightly if he wants another inquiry.:shrug:

Yes a inquiry for sacking only
they are all ganging up on ken

[the truth]

but what is anti semetic about what hes said

[DemolitionRed]

but what is anti semetic about what hes said

Which ever way you look at it, he said nothing anti-Semetic.

There are many Jews who don’t support racism, and will never support the ill treatment the Palestinians receive. Many Jews see Zionism as an evil that created a racist state and so to call anti-Zionism "anti-Semitism," verges on obscene.

Don’t get me wrong here, I believe the Jews are far more sinned upon than do the sinning. The reason Zionism grew like it did is because of post traumatic periods in history. Jewish people have spent too long being expelled from tribal lands but for Zionist forces to do the same to the Arabs makes them just as tribal and barbaric as the rest.

What we have to accept is, if you are a Zionist Jew then for you, Zionism is at the very heart of being Jewish and so you could be offended when someone speaks out against Zionism. What the Zionists must accept is, many of those speaking out are none Zionist Jews and for that reason alone, It can't be seen as anti-Semitism

[the truth]

Which ever way you look at it, he said nothing anti-Semetic.

There are many Jews who don’t support racism, and will never support the ill treatment the Palestinians receive. Many Jews see Zionism as an evil that created a racist state and so to call anti-Zionism "anti-Semitism," verges on obscene.

Don’t get me wrong here, I believe the Jews are far more sinned upon than do the sinning. The reason Zionism grew like it did is because of post traumatic periods in history. Jewish people have spent too long being expelled from tribal lands but for Zionist forces to do the same to the Arabs makes them just as tribal and barbaric as the rest.

What we have to accept is, if you are a Zionist Jew then for you, Zionism is at the very heart of being Jewish and so you could be offended when someone speaks out against Zionism. What the Zionists must accept is, many of those speaking out are none Zionist Jews and for that reason alone, It can't be seen as anti-Semitism


the news media is hysterical, they seem to label so much as anti semitism when clearly in some cases its either a criticism of israel or support of palestinians. in this case its merely a conversation about whether the nazis ever supported zionism. I cant see why merely discussing that is racist. but maybe I am missing the intent or connotation here

[Northern Monkey]

Does anyone know why he said it yet?or in what context?

[DemolitionRed]

the news media is hysterical, they seem to label so much as anti semitism when clearly in some cases its either a criticism of israel or support of palestinians. in this case its merely a conversation about whether the nazis ever supported zionism. I cant see why merely discussing that is racist. but maybe I am missing the intent or connotation here

What he touched upon was The Haavara Agreement Transfer https://academic.oup.com/leobaeck/article-abstract/35/1/245/922399/German-Interests-in-the-Haavara-Transfer-Agreement?redirectedFrom=PDF

[DemolitionRed]

Does anyone know why he said it yet?or in what context?

There's a video with what he actually said here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/apr/04/how-ken-livingstone-avoided-labour-party-expulsion-video

[MTVN]

Very good article which people should read if they don't understand why Livingston has upset so many people with his comments. What he said is one interpretation of events but in history there is very little that is 'fact'.

So … Ken … A lot of people – predominantly the good people, of course, of the British left – have been tweeting to tell me that Ken just “stated a fact”. Here is the problem with what Livingstone said. Because Ken Livingstone did not state a fact.

The statement “Hitler supported Zionism” is not a fact. It’s an interpretation. An interpretation of a particular historical moment, in the 1930s, when the forced emigration of Jews from Germany was pushed further along by various Nazi economic incentives allowing those who fled to Palestine to get some of their stolen assets back.

That is not Adolf Hitler supporting the idea of a Jewish state (even writing that sentence looks ridiculous). It is the Nazis taking advantage of the terror and despair of fleeing refugees to get more of them to leave the country. It is just the thin edge of the wedge of Nazi horror.

The real problem, in a way, is the tone of Livingstone when giving this interpretation. There’s no sympathy. No compassion – no sense of the tragedy behind this. It’s just complacently presented as a deal that Hitler made with German Zionists, and therefore – and this, of course, is the point, the banal, **** point – a way of confirming that Zionism is bad. Through an association with the top bad thing, Hitler.
...

I’ll leave with the words of Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, before he went mad, according to Livingstone. So exactly in that period when he was, as we know, supporting Zionism. I may have as much of a tin ear for meaning as Livingstone has for antisemitism, but I can’t, for the life of me, make this out to be as pro the idea of the creation of a Jewish state as Livingstone insists it is: “While the Zionists try to make the rest of the World believe that the national consciousness of the Jew finds its satisfaction in the creation of a Palestinian state, the Jews again slyly dupe the dumb Goyim. It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there; all they want is a central organisation for their international world swindler, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks.”

Full article: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/06/ken-livingstone-hitler-zionism-jews

[DemolitionRed]

There is enough old documentation on this to accept it as fact but certain people clearly try and rubbish this. If it wasn't fact, why did Goebbels have a special coin minted to celebrate Zionism? The coin had a Star of David on one side and a Swastika on the other side. http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/paul-bogdanor-and-zionist-three-card.html

[DemolitionRed]

This wasn’t about making Zionism bad (according to David Baddiel’s article in the Guardian). Zionism formed its own reputation long after the formation of Israel. None of us would be talking about Zionism now if they were all living happily under the same balmy sky. Try looking at a map of Israel and Palestine 100 years ago and then compare it with a map of Israel and Palestine today. Ethnic cleansing is the thing that disturbs many of us about Zionism, not Germany offering them a resettlement agreement nearly a hundred years ago.

I’m sure people don’t give a damn what the Germans did for the Zionists, its just a small part in history and at best, interesting. To suggest it made Zionists Nazi supporters is just as ridiculous than calling Zionism anti-Semitic.

[Livia]

It never fails to amaze me the lengths some people will go to in order to excuse anti-Semitism. It's the same people who are all over any kind of negatively toward any other group. And so shall it always be. Saying there is no evidence of Labour's anti-Semitism and the fact that it's more widespread in Corbyn's Labour than it is in any other party.

Thank you MTVN for a little balance, I knew there had to be some in there somewhere and it didn't necessarily have to come from me.

[joeysteele]

I said earlier here I wished Livingstone would keep quiet.

However whether he is wrong as to his perception of history or right in parts.

The charge of anti semitism against him is ridiculous and those that level same do a massive injustice as to clearing out anti semitism from all Parties and throughout society where any anti semitism may exist too.

Really the witch hunts on this in the media particularly are becoming more pure spite likely than much of real anti semitic substance.

[Kizzy]

It never fails to amaze me the lengths some people will go to in order to excuse anti-Semitism. It's the same people who are all over any kind of negatively toward any other group. And so shall it always be. Saying there is no evidence of Labour's anti-Semitism and the fact that it's more widespread in Corbyn's Labour than it is in any other party.

Thank you MTVN for a little balance, I knew there had to be some in there somewhere and it didn't necessarily have to come from me.

It's called being objective Livia.
I haven't said there is no evidence within Labour at all therefore your twisting has fallen at the first hurdle, my point was, is and will continue to be that it exists in all parties and it is wrongly being ascribed to Labour only due to an orchestrated media campaign.

Your 'balance' consists of of journalists opinion which in other threads you have explicitly rubbished as worthless....that is until they marry with your standpoint.

[Northern Monkey]

There's a video with what he actually said here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/apr/04/how-ken-livingstone-avoided-labour-party-expulsion-video

Right so he was defending Naz Shah on a radio show.

[Northern Monkey]

Very good article which people should read if they don't understand why Livingston has upset so many people with his comments. What he said is one interpretation of events but in history there is very little that is 'fact'.
Very interesting:thumbs:

[the truth]

there is a lot of racism in both parties but more anti semitism it seems within labour atm...though id still question if this is anti semitism with livingstone

[Livia]

there is a lot of racism in both parties but more anti semitism it seems within labour atm...though id still question if this is anti semitism with livingstone

It's scary that he thinks like that and feels free to voice it. And really, if it was just this, it would have been forgotten now. But add it to all the other claims that Jewish MPs and party members have made, all the hearings and party expulsions on the grounds of anti-Semitism, and you'll see Labour is waaaay out in front in the anti-Semitic stakes. The evidence is there.

[DemolitionRed]

These are the protests right wing media don't want you to see.

Do you think the people here are anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist?

http://www.realnews247.com/spec_rpt_jews_against_zionism.htm

[joeysteele]

there is a lot of racism in both parties but more anti semitism it seems within labour atm...though id still question if this is anti semitism with livingstone

You are right to question that,because it isn't anti semitism from Livingstone.
It is more likely being used as such which actually does a massive disservice as to dealing with genuine anti semitism,no matter where it may be.

[Livia]

These are the protests right wing media don't want you to see.

Do you think the people here are anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist?

http://www.realnews247.com/spec_rpt_jews_against_zionism.htm

That looks like a quality source. Is that it? Really?

[Brillopad]

That looks like a quality source. Is that it? Really?

It's real - apparently. :joker:

[Kizzy]

Why not check some of the information within the text before you mock the content?...

Here's a source you may deem 'credible'

http://www.realnews247.com/bbc_refusniks.htm

[DemolitionRed]

That looks like a quality source. Is that it? Really?

Are you saying that all Jews are Zionist? or that no Jews are anti-Zionist?
If not, what was the point in your comment?

[Brillopad]

You do realize that some people won't accept anything from a person they don't like in here and will listen to bull**** from the people they do like... Waste of time Kizzy.

You do realise that works equally both ways. Many would say the same.

[DemolitionRed]

You do realise that works equally both ways. Many would say the same.

I go by facts and having family who are anti-Zionist Jews. What do you go by?

[Kizzy]

You do realise that works equally both ways. Many would say the same.

What personally did you have against the information posted by DR?
'It's real' is such an ambiguous response.

[Niamh.]

Closed for cleaning

[Niamh.]

Deleted some posts in here, can you all stick to the topic and stop getting personal please

[Kizzy]

'The *report, by an influential parliamentary committee, stated that “the majority of antisemitic abuse and crime” comes from the far right. And that there is “no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party”.

After very briefly mentioning the report, the segment appeared to entirely ignore it. Out of the six people featured during the sequence, Sky News chose five that claimed Labour has a problem with antisemitism. Of those five, three explicitly linked antisemitism to Corbyn. Sky News spotlighted those comments unchallenged, despite the report and the Labour leader’s long history of anti-racism campaigning.'

For example, one interviewee said:

I think they are frankly more concerned about Jeremy Corbyn than they are about Ken Livingstone.

* https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/136/136.pdf

http://www.thecanary.co/2017/04/09/anyone-watching-sky-news-just-now-may-picture-corbyn-nothing-short-fantasy-video/

[Kizzy]

5TdAWTCY_b4

(from 6.56)

[DemolitionRed]

A good interview Kizzy, ty for that.