SNP Under Fire as Scottish Education records worst ever ratings

[jaxie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/06/snp-fire-scottish-education-system-records-worst-ever-rating/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39885792 Link added as relevant to discussion. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39856284

I've not seen anyone pick up on this so I thought I'd start a thread. It seems a pretty serious problem and although it's being said more money is going to spent, do you think that throwing money at education is the way to improve standards? I'm inclined to think an overhaul of the system is needed.

[Greg!]

More people from Scotland get into uni than any other part of the UK so they must be doing something right

[Denver]

More people from Scotland get into uni than any other part of the UK so they must be doing something right

They only go because it is free :idc:

[Kizzy]

You have to have the grades to go however remember, therefore how can the Schools be failing? Is this a ploy to expand free schools?.... most likely.

[jaxie]

More people from Scotland get into uni than any other part of the UK so they must be doing something right

I've not seen any statistics for that so I can't comment and don't feel it is particularly relevant since any such statistcs could include overseas students at Scottish Universities. Your apparent lack of concern for the children being failed is rather sad.

You have to have the grades to go however remember, therefore how can the Schools be failing? Is this a ploy to expand free schools?.... most likely.

The Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) is a worldwide study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in member and non-member nations of 15-year-old school pupils' scholastic performance on mathematics, science, and reading. OECD is a European organisation. So I ask you, what possible motivation would they have to expand free schools?

[MTVN]

Not sure if more people in Scotland do go to university but it's certainly true that Scotland is the worst country in the UK for admitting kids from poorer backgrounds to uni

www.independent.co.uk/student/into-university/scottish-universities-worst-in-the-uk-for-admitting-poorer-students-despite-having-no-tuition-fees-a7051521.html%3Famp

[Kizzy]

I've not seen any statistics for that so I can't comment and don't feel it is particularly relevant. Your apparent lack of concern for the children being failed is rather sad.

However he has taken the time to research and compare Scotland and England in relation to how many students go on to higher education so in relation to attainment it is wholly relevant and suggests that in reality it is children in the rest of the UK that are being failed.

However bad Scotland are doing, it's better than we are doing here, where then is the outrage for our failed English children?...

[Withano]

I've not seen any statistics for that so I can't comment and don't feel it is particularly relevant. Your apparent lack of concern for the children being failed is rather sad.



The Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) is a worldwide study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in member and non-member nations of 15-year-old school pupils' scholastic performance on mathematics, science, and reading. OECD is a European organisation. So I ask you, what possible motivation would they have to expand free schools?

Pisa tests are flawed. They test 15 year olds (and a few other age groups) in irrelevant tests, in a few selected schools across the world
A 15 year old scot would not revise for this irrelevant test, its an important year for them to be focussing on other things like their gcses. Uk and usa never do well either. China, Japan, Shanghai etc always score the highest because they take these tests more seriously than the rest of the world, and they have less conflicting examinations at that age
A uk teacher should, and does, encourage pupils not to take it seriously.

[Kizzy]

I've not seen any statistics for that so I can't comment and don't feel it is particularly relevant. Your apparent lack of concern for the children being failed is rather sad.



The Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) is a worldwide study by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in member and non-member nations of 15-year-old school pupils' scholastic performance on mathematics, science, and reading. OECD is a European organisation. So I ask you, what possible motivation would they have to expand free schools?

We for the moment are Europe, the motivation is outsourcing they are hacking away at local education authority control so they can reduce costs in teachers, resources and maintenance of schools.

[jaxie]

However he has taken the time to research and compare Scotland and England in relation to how many students go on to higher education so in relation to attainment it is wholly relevant and suggests that in reality it is children in the rest of the UK that are being failed.

However bad Scotland are doing, it's better than we are doing here, where then is the outrage for our failed English children?...

Oh has he, did I miss the link for that?

[jaxie]

We for the moment are Europe, the motivation is outsourcing they are hacking away at local education authority control so they can reduce costs in teachers, resources and maintenance of schools.

Who are 'they' the EU?

[Withano]

No seriously guys, education shouldnt be measured by a pisa score, it means feck all
Children from uk are honestly encouraged to not revise or take it seriously.

[jaxie]

Pisa tests are flawed. They test 15 year olds (and a few other age groups) in irrelevant tests, in a few selected schools across the world
A 15 year old scot would not revise for this irrelevant test, its an important year for them to be focussing on other things like their gcses. Uk and usa never do well either. China, Japan, Shanghai etc always score the highest because they take these tests more seriously than the rest of the world, and they have less conflicting examinations at that age
A uk teacher should, and does, encourage pupils not to take it seriously.

The point is rather that Scottish standards seem to have dropped significantly from the same tests of previous years.

The SNP seem concerned enough about it to state they are throwing more money into education.

On what do you base your claim that they shouldn't be taken seriously?

[Cherie]

More people from Scotland get into uni than any other part of the UK so they must be doing something right

They only go because it is free :idc:

You have to have the grades to go however remember, therefore how can the Schools be failing? Is this a ploy to expand free schools?.... most likely.

Many students who achieve University entry grades in England simply don't go as they can't afford it

[Withano]

The point is rather that Scottish standards seem to have dropped significantly from the same tests of previous years.

The SNP seem concerned enough about it to state they are throwing more money into education.

On what do you base your claim that they shouldn't be taken seriously?

15 year olds do not, and should not revise for pisa tests. They will continue to drop forever, I'm surprised the uk are still partaking in them.
Edit: I suppose the data might be interesting for other ages they test
15 year olds however should, and do, focus on their gcses

[jaxie]

15 year olds do not, and should not revise for pisa tests. They will continue to drop forever, I'm surprised the uk are still partaking in them.
Edit: I suppose the data might be interesting for other ages they test
15 year olds however should, and do, focus on their gcses

I say again, on what do you base your claims? You aren't showing me anything to say what you are saying is any kind of fact, for all I know it is just the world according to Withano. :shrug:

[Kizzy]

Here is a link to the table of scores, just for a bit of perspective.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/dec/06/english-schools-core-subject-test-results-international-oecd-pisa

[Withano]

I say again, on what do you base your claims? You aren't showing me anything to say what you are saying is any kind of fact, for all I know it is just the world according to Withano. :shrug:

First hand experience. I was forced to take a pisa test lol. There was uproar from students, teachers, and parents, and we were told to not revise.

[jaxie]

First hand experience. I was forced to take a pisa test lol. There was uproar from students, teachers, and parents, and we were told to not revise.

So that's at your school then. How can you assume it is the same everywhere or that children in other countries taking it do revise? If no one revises its still a balanced test of ability.

[Withano]

So that's at your school then. How can you assume it is the same everywhere or that children in other countries taking it do revise? If no one revises its still a balanced test of ability.

Because common sense. A 15 year old has GCSEs to finish coursework in 10+ subjects at the age of 15, comparatively the age of 15 is a quiet year for education in some countries.

[Niamh.]

Here is a link to the table of scores, just for a bit of perspective.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/dec/06/english-schools-core-subject-test-results-international-oecd-pisa

We're 10 places ahead of ye :hee:

ETA That was just Maths excuse me.

Number 5 in reading, behind ye in Science though

[Withano]

UK education system isnt great, I feel like it came across that this was my point
Its not
My point is that PISA tests are a ridic way to test education especially at the age of 15

[jaxie]

UK education system isnt great, I feel like it came across that this was my point
Its not
My point is that PISA tests are a ridic way to test education especially at the age of 15

That's great but that's just your opinion unless you can back it up.

[Withano]

That's great but that's just your opinion unless you can back it up.

You're honestly asking me to back up the fact that kids, teachers, and parents care more for GCSEs than a PISA test? You're just being stubborn.

[Niamh.]

First hand experience. I was forced to take a pisa test lol. There was uproar from students, teachers, and parents, and we were told to not revise.

I never even heard of that test before, I must ask my daughter if any of her class had to do one :think: We have one called The Drumcondra test alright that all primary school students do once a year in English, Irish and maths but that's just a national thing

[jaxie]

You're honestly asking me to back up the fact that kids, teachers, and parents care more for GCSEs than a PISA test? You're just being stubborn.

You are the person claiming the organisation/tests are not viable in some way, I just reported what I read, with a link to it. I'm just asking how you know this. It isn't stubborness it's asking you to back up what you are saying. If you can't just say so. :shrug:

[Withano]

I never even heard of that test before, I must ask my daughter if any of her class had to do one :think: We have one called The Drumcondra test alright that all primary school students do once a year in English, Irish and maths but that's just a national thing

They're not annual, and they're not in every school - every three years. Think your daughter wasnt one of the unlucky ones!

[Withano]

you are the person claiming the organisation/tests are not viable in some way, i just reported what i read, with a link to it. I'm just asking how you know this. It isn't stubborness it's asking you to back up what you are saying. If you can't just say so. :shrug:

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[jaxie]

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That's a no you can't back it up then.

[Withano]

That's a no you can't back it up then.

I cant find anybody who wrote an article about a kid prioritising their gcse coursework over their pisa score, no.

[Withano]

Besides, wasnt the last pisa test in 2015, and the next in 2018. Why is this even being discussed?

[Niamh.]

They're not annual, and they're not in every school - every three years. Think your daughter wasnt one of the unlucky ones!

Thank god because she has enough to be studying for and she already put loads of pressure on herself

[jaxie]

Besides, wasnt the last pisa test in 2015, and the next in 2018. Why is this even being discussed?

It was in the news and seems fairly serious.

[Niamh.]

That's a no you can't back it up then.

I cant find anybody who wrote an article about a kid prioritising their gcse coursework over their pisa score, no.

I know nothing about that test but I know I would be advising my kids not to waste time studying for a test that only makes a statistics list over their Junior Cert (similar to your GCSEs)

[jaxie]

I know nothing about that test but I know I would be advising my kids not to waste time studying for a test that only makes a statistics list over their Junior Cert (similar to your GCSEs)

I'm not convinced anyone would revise for a standards test of this kind since it isn't curriculum based so it might be unlikely to know what they might ask. I would imagine it's fairly general knowledge but I have no idea personally. My point was just that neither did anyone else talking to me in the thread so how can it be dismissed as not being a viable idea of standards.

[Withano]

I'm not convinced anyone would revise for a standards test of this kind since it isn't curriculum based so it might be unlikely to know what they might ask. I would imagine it's fairly general knowledge but I have no idea personally. My point was just that neither did anyone else talking to me in the thread so how can it be dismissed as not being a viable idea of standards.

A PISA score is simply just that, a PISA score. Education at the age of 15/16 is different across the world. It is a particularly challenging year for the UK. It is not a challenging year for the countries that consistently score high.
The idea that it happens every three years, and only in some schools, is in my opinion, and surely your opinion, dumb.
Some are encouraged to revise by teachers and parents, the UK are obviously not.
You're just missing so much contextualised data. 99.9%+ of children in Singapore are doing the exams in their first language
They are doing it without the stress of conflicting assessments
I honestly think you're being stubborn. If A levels / GCSEs go down significantly, you have an interesting thread. PISA 2015 results have no reflection on Scotland or the UK. They just dont.

[Greg!]

It was in the news and seems fairly serious.

The article is from last year, based on information from the year before. Since then they've reformed the new exam system

[Niamh.]

I'm not convinced anyone would revise for a standards test of this kind since it isn't curriculum based so it might be unlikely to know what they might ask. I would imagine it's fairly general knowledge but I have no idea personally. My point was just that neither did anyone else talking to me in the thread so how can it be dismissed as not being a viable idea of standards.

Yeah that's true too, that test that they do in primary school for similar reasons at a national level, none of them study for

[Kizzy]

That's a no you can't back it up then.

the sample size is 3,000 PER COUNTRY.

[jaxie]

The article is from last year, based on information from the year before. Since then they've reformed the new exam system

And it was all over the news this week with Sturgeon saying we must do better. :shrug:

[Withano]

And it was all over the news this week with Sturgeon saying we must do better. :shrug:

Surely she wasnt saying we must do better in PISA tests hahah? Do you have a link to that? That would turn me right off her, surely she meant education in general.

[jaxie]

Surely she wasnt saying we must do better in PISA tests hahah? Do you have a link to that? That would turn me right off her, surely she meant education in general.

I'm looking for it and hoping I didn't post the wrong link and was thinking of this one. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39885792

With regard the PISA I read something on my tablet that I'm struggling to find on my pc. I think the PISA story was republished in relation to the other articles relating to Scotland's own published results in an article I read on my tablet and that I've maybe pasted the wrong link, thinking it was that one.

[Withano]

I'm looking for it and hoping I didn't post the wrong link and was thinking of this one. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39885792

Okay good, it has nothing to do with PISA! Your OP implied it was all about PISA, those tests are honestly a waste of time, especially for 15 years olds.
I'm all for a better education system, I've said that before in the thread. But education shouldnt be measured by PISA, I'm so relieved nobody said it should be!

[jaxie]

Okay good, it has nothing to do with PISA! Your OP implied it was all about PISA, those tests are honestly a waste of time, especially for 15 years olds.
I'm all for a better education system, I've said that before in the thread. But education shouldnt be measured by PISA, I'm so relieved nobody said it should be!

I'll stand by what I said though You don't know that the PISA results are without value.

[Withano]

I'll stand by what I said though You don't know that the PISA results are without value.

If you're common sense tells you that testing a random sample of 15 year olds in an unimportant test that conflicts with their GCSEs is a good measurement of the UKs education system, (despite nobody telling you otherwise anyway, you clearly misinterpreted Nicola) then thats your prerogative.

[jaxie]

If you're common sense tells you that testing a random sample of 15 year olds in an unimportant test that conflicts with their GCSEs is a good measurement of the UKs education system, (despite nobody telling you otherwise anyway, you clearly misinterpreted Nicola) then thats your prerogative.

Scotland's own figures show a drop in standards so you can't really discount the PISA results. But my apologies if my link was confusing or lack of multiple links was confusing. I can't paste links on the tablet so came to look for what I'd read the other day on the PC where I can paste links.

[Withano]

Scotland's own figures show a drop in standards so you can't really discount the PISA results. But my apologies if my link was confusing or lack of multiple links was confusing.

PISA tests should be discounted by everybody always, unless they test every school and every age.

The sources that you have added are interesting and makes our discussion kinda pointless, to summarise, PISA tests are stupid and have zero reflection on education in the UK.

I'll look through your other articles later, I honestly think we can agree with the points raised within them there - i do think the UK education system is a bit ****e in places, but you cant make this point with pisa scores.

[jaxie]

PISA tests should be discounted by everybody always, unless they test every school and every age.

The sources that you have added are interesting and makes our discussion kinda pointless, to summarise, PISA tests are stupid and have zero reflection on education in the UK.

I'll look through your other articles later, I honestly think we can agree with the points raised within them there - it was your original point about pisa which was annoying me.

I'm sorry Withano but you are still making bald statements about these PISA tests with absolutely nothing to back up your statements or claims apart from opinion. You can't state that as fact, you don't know it is fact. I don't know it as fact but I wouldn't take just your word on it without some sort of evidence that backs you up. Unless you have some sort of qualification that names you an expert on the subject of course?

[Withano]

I'm sorry Withano but you are still making bald statements about these PISA tests with absolutely nothing to back up your statements or claims apart from opinion. You can't state that as fact, you don't know it is fact. I don't know it as fact but I wouldn't take just your word on it without some sort of evidence that backs you up. Unless you have some sort of qualification that names you an expert on the subject of course?

If you're common sense tells you that testing a random sample of 15 year olds in an unimportant test that conflicts with their GCSEs is a good measurement of the UKs education system, (despite nobody telling you otherwise anyway, you clearly misinterpreted Nicola) then thats your prerogative.

.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano View Post
If you're common sense tells you that testing a random sample of 15 year olds in an unimportant test that conflicts with their GCSEs is a good measurement of the UKs education system, (despite nobody telling you otherwise anyway, you clearly misinterpreted Nicola) then thats your prerogative.

Personalised Judgement in this case without any specialised knowledge is pretty worthless.

[Withano]

Personalised Judgement in this case without any specialised knowledge is pretty worthless.

Hows your judgement on pisa being an excellent test of the UKs education system without a source going?

[Cherie]

If these tests are so stupid and should be ignored why are they carried out, publicised etc, you could argue most tests are stupid as teachers cram students in what they know is most likely to come up in exams rather than what is on the curriculum, so most exams are skewed in one way or another, and the water is muddied further by retakes, also exams differ between country to country, you could argue the PISA test is the same test taken by all so is more valid?

[jaxie]

Hows your judgement on pisa being an excellent test of the UKs education system without a source going?

Except that isn't what I said, is it?

[Withano]

If these tests are so stupid and should be ignored why are they carried out, publicised etc, you could argue most tests are stupid as teachers cram students in what they know is most likely to come up in exams rather than what is on the curriculum, so most exams are skewed in one way or another, and the water is muddied further by retakes, also exams differ between country to country, you could argue the PISA test is the same test taken by all so is more valid?

1. You changing your avatar is confusing
2. I think they should absolutely be abolished. Or at least open to other age groups. You cant compare a stressed-with-exams-and-coursework 15 year old brit to a Singaporean that has fewer exams, obviously results will always be inconclusive there.
3. Other factors such as language barriers, the schools chosen at random etc are also detracting from its findings

Its just a bizarre thing to put schoolkids through, no conclusions should be made. Literally nobody is making conclusions either apart from Jaxie lol. Nicola has literally never mentioned pisa lol.

[Cherie]

1. You changing your avatar is confusing
2. I think they should absolutely be abolished. Or at least open to other age groups. You cant compare a stressed-with-exams-and-coursework 15 year old brit to a Singaporean that has fewer exams, obviously results will always be inconclusive there.
3. Other factors such as language barriers, the schools chosen at random etc are also detracting from its findings

Its just a bizarre thing to put schoolkids through, no conclusions should be made. Literally nobody is making conclusions either apart from Jaxie lol. Nicola has literally never mentioned pisa lol.

i'm channelling LT :hehe:

[jaxie]

1. You changing your avatar is confusing
2. I think they should absolutely be abolished. Or at least open to other age groups. You cant compare a stressed-with-exams-and-coursework 15 year old brit to a Singaporean that has fewer exams, obviously results will always be inconclusive there.
3. Other factors such as language barriers, the schools chosen at random etc are also detracting from its findings

Its just a bizarre thing to put schoolkids through, no conclusions should be made. Literally nobody is making conclusions either apart from Jaxie lol. Nicola has literally never mentioned pisa lol.

Except I've already said that I don't know much about the validity of the tests, but I don't know enough to claim they are worthless either, and neither do you. Let's try hard not to misquote me.

What I intended to discuss was the information as a whole that was released this week regarding problems with Scotland's Education standards. I mentioned Pisa after someone said it was probably to get more free schools and I pointed out why would they want more free schools in the UK they are an EU organisation.

I already apologised to you for posting a link that wasn't the one I intended, I would love to see you be a bigger person one day and admit when you are wrong.

[Withano]

i'm channelling LT :hehe:

:joker:

[Withano]

Except I've already said that I don't know much about the validity of the tests, but I don't know enough to claim they are worthless either, and neither do you. Let's try hard not to misquote me.

What I intended to discuss was the information as a whole that was released this week regarding problems with Scotland's Education standards. I mentioned Pisa after someone said it was probably to get more free schools and I pointed out why would they want more free schools in the UK they are an EU organisation.

I already apologised to you for posting a link that wasn't the one I intended, I would love to see you be a bigger person one day and admit when you are wrong.

We should move on. The OP is now, quite an interesting topic. When I responded it was not... because pisa isnt a good way to test education across the world, and nobody has ever said otherwise as far as I'm aware, there are far too many flaws in the method. You being blind to them is still your prerogative. (I admitted I was wrong literally yesterday in a discussion I was having about farmers.. This is different thoug, you're just being stubborn imo).

[jaxie]

We should move on. The OP is now, quite an interesting topic. When I responded it was not... because pisa isnt a good way to test education across the world, and nobody has ever said otherwise as far as I'm aware, there are far too many flaws in the method. You being blind to them is still your prerogative.

I found the link I had meant to post, which was streamed on my tablet with the recent reports and I admit I confused it as an article relating to this weeks news. However in view of this week's news on Scottish Education it can't fail to be relevant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38922338

"Researchers from the Sutton Trust think tank found a gap equivalent to more than two years in schooling for science, reading and maths between pupils from less well-off backgrounds in the top 10% of achievers nationally, compared to their equally clever but better-off peers.
'Major weaknesses'
The analysis used figures from the latest international Pisa tests - which Ms Sturgeon observed were actually carried out almost two years ago."

"In response, Ms Sturgeon acknowledged the report as an "important" one, but said the data it was using pre-dates her latest reforms."

She also said: "First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said she will make no excuses for the poor performance of Scottish schools in an international survey.
Scotland recorded its worst scores in the OECD's Pisa rankings in 2015.
Opposition politicians said Scotland was going "backwards" in reading, science and maths under the SNP.
Ms Sturgeon took responsibility for the results, which were "not good enough", but said they underlined the case for her educational reform plans."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38250199

She seems to have a little more respect for PISA results than you do. :shrug:

And moving on. Do we think that throwing money into education is the answer or should the system be reformed? Personally I think some of the paperwork needs to be reduced and teachers should be allowed to teach. The problem is that children do not fit into one box and so teaching on the fly should be more acceptable.

[Withano]

I found the link I had meant to post, which was streamed on my tablet with the recent reports and I admit I confused it as an article relating to this weeks news. However in view of this week's news on Scottish Education it can't fail to be relevant.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38922338

"Researchers from the Sutton Trust think tank found a gap equivalent to more than two years in schooling for science, reading and maths between pupils from less well-off backgrounds in the top 10% of achievers nationally, compared to their equally clever but better-off peers.
'Major weaknesses'
The analysis used figures from the latest international Pisa tests - which Ms Sturgeon observed were actually carried out almost two years ago."

"In response, Ms Sturgeon acknowledged the report as an "important" one, but said the data it was using pre-dates her latest reforms."

Yeh theres a huge gap between advantaged and disadvantaged, another reason that the pisa test is flawed, the random sampling method could select more or less of one of these groups from each country. Dont have much to add. An analysis on pisa scores is just that, the fact that it highlighted the attainment gap between social-classes isn't surprising, its the analyses that compare figures internationally that are pointless.

[smudgie]

Testing put to one side, less than a half of 13 and 14 year olds can write well and the proportion who are functionally illiterate has doubled according to the new figures.
It was debated on the Daily politics today, also in the Telegraph in an article by the Scottish political editor.
As to uni, the amount of people who are illiterate entering uni has risen as well, not just in Scotland.

[user104658]

There are issues with the education system to be honest but they are almost entirely related to funding. Classroom sizes are too big and schools are understaffed. Simple as that.

There are huge problems with education UK wide, though.

[jaxie]

There are issues with the education system to be honest but they are almost entirely related to funding. Classroom sizes are too big and schools are understaffed. Simple as that.

There are huge problems with education UK wide, though.

But doesn't Scotland control what funding they put into education?

[user104658]

Yes and no, how money is spent day to day is devolved to local councils which (in my opinion) is a mistake. I actually think spending should be decided by the schools themselves, with councils (and beyond) only stepping in to assess if it's being spent well when a school is under - performing.

However the overall lump-sum funding is, I believe, received in a block from Westminster. It will continue to be that way until taxation is fully devolved, if that ever happens.

[Kizzy]

Testing put to one side, less than a half of 13 and 14 year olds can write well and the proportion who are functionally illiterate has doubled according to the new figures.
It was debated on the Daily politics today, also in the Telegraph in an article by the Scottish political editor.
As to uni, the amount of people who are illiterate entering uni has risen as well, not just in Scotland.

Hang on what?... How on earth do you get into uni illiterate? :/

[jaxie]

Hang on what?... How on earth do you get into uni illiterate? :/

It must happen, when my son was at Uni he had a friend who had very poor English and he really couldn't cope. His family lived in London but he was originally from Poland. He ended up dropping out because he couldn't keep up with the other students.

[Denver]

If these tests are so stupid and should be ignored why are they carried out, publicised etc, you could argue most tests are stupid as teachers cram students in what they know is most likely to come up in exams rather than what is on the curriculum, so most exams are skewed in one way or another, and the water is muddied further by retakes, also exams differ between country to country, you could argue the PISA test is the same test taken by all so is more valid?

It wouldnt be so stupid if they were in favour of their preferred party

[smudgie]

Hang on what?... How on earth do you get into uni illiterate? :/

Heaven only knows Kizzy.
But it's happening more and more, get them in and get their dosh maybe:shrug:

[Kizzy]

It must happen, when my son was at Uni he had a friend who had very poor English and he really couldn't cope. His family lived in London but he was originally from Poland. He ended up dropping out because he couldn't keep up with the other students.

He may have been doing a baccalaureate?

[jaxie]

He may have been doing a baccalaureate?

Bachelor of Arts (BA)

My son said he could speak decent English but couldn't keep up with the written work. I've no idea how he got into the course, maybe he got a lot of help with his written work during A levels or BTech?