Brillos EU/Brexit thread

[Brillopad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

Yet more good news for Brexit.

[Toy Soldier]

Removing all trade tariffs and barriers would help generate an annual £135bn uplift to the UK economy, according to a group of pro-Brexit economists.

Well it's nice to know that they're impartial :joker:

[Brillopad]

Well it's nice to know that they're impartial :joker:

They are also economists so maybe, just maybe they are pro-Brexit because they can see the benefits in a way Joe Public can't. They are better informed. Besides it always works both ways.

[Smithy]

The economy is in the toilet because of brexit, how is this more good news? There hasn't been any good news yet

[Brillopad]

The economy is in the toilet because of brexit, how is this more good news? There hasn't been any good news yet

Think I'll take the words of an informed economist over that of a fear driven remainer thanks.

[Toy Soldier]

Think I'll take the words of an informed economist over that of a fear driven remainer thanks.You'll take the word of an economist if it's one of the few that is saying that Brexit is a shining star. If it's one of the DOZENS of economists who have stated how disastrous Brexit has been / will be, you're happy to ignore them and bleat that the "public has spoken!". Snooze.

[Toy Soldier]

They are also economists so maybe, just maybe they are pro-Brexit because they can see the benefits in a way Joe Public can't. They are better informed.

Just to echo my comment above really. You are happy to ignore the economists and financial experts who believe that Brexit will be hugely damaging to the economy... and fall back on the Joe Public vote.

Whatever suits your argument at the time eh Brillo?

[Brillopad]

Just to echo my comment above really. You are happy to ignore the economists and financial experts who believe that Brexit will be hugely damaging to the economy... and fall back on the Joe Public vote.

Whatever suits your argument at the time eh Brillo?


And that doesn't work both ways then?

I choose to believe the positivity of these economists because I agree with them. You choose to believe the negativity of other economists because you agree with them. The difference is? :shrug:

[Smithy]

You'll take the word of an economist if it's one of the few that is saying that Brexit is a shining star. If it's one of the DOZENS of economists who have stated how disastrous Brexit has been / will be, you're happy to ignore them and bleat that the "public has spoken!". Snooze.

Ignorance is bliss I guess

[Brillopad]

Ignorance is bliss I guess

Says the so-called expert. It is indeed. Enjoy!

[Toy Soldier]

And that doesn't work both ways then?

I choose to believe the positivity of these economists because I agree with them. You choose to believe the negativity of other economists because you agree with them. The difference is? :shrug:I don't believe anyone but myself, Brillo :hee:. I'm well aware that everyone has an agenda, that's why you don't find me posting links or articles for either "side".

You choose to believe the articles you do because you already agree with them. You choose to ignore the "negative" articles because you already disagree with them. What you're describing there is called "confirmation bias", and it doesn't really do anyone any good.

And no I'm not saying it's just Brexit Buddies who do that, ProEuerers do it too.

Tbh I don't really have a side on Brexit any more. I think it's very naive to think that the economy will do well with Brexit. But then, I also sort of think the EU is ****ed anyway. And sort of the whole western world. Because in the 80's everyone put their eggs in one neoliberal basket and 30 years later, neoliberalism is failing.

So Brexit, no Brexit, whatever, I don't think it makes much difference. The economy is going to suffer for a long time either way.

How's that for some positivity :joker:.


My only real hope is that Scottish Indy does happen because I believe that small scale economies of less than 10 million people are far more able to support normal citizens in times of economic hardship than larger 50+ million economies, which foster elitism and leave everyone else behind.

[Smithy]

Says the so-called expert. It is indeed. Enjoy!

Where did I say I was an expert? :laugh2: stop embarrassing yourself

[Brillopad]

Where did I say I was an expert? :laugh2: stop embarrassing yourself

You constantly keep implying you know best - It is an opinion nothing more.

The difference in opinions between the experts demonstrates that no-one knows anything as fact and that all 'forecasts' are based on the 'opinions' of the experts. No-one can say with any certainty that one group of experts know better than the other - as usual it comes down to opinions not facts.

Please quit the playground tactics - you are wasting your time.

[Brillopad]

I don't believe anyone but myself, Brillo :hee:. I'm well aware that everyone has an agenda, that's why you don't find me posting links or articles for either "side".

You choose to believe the articles you do because you already agree with them. You choose to ignore the "negative" articles because you already disagree with them. What you're describing there is called "confirmation bias", and it doesn't really do anyone any good.

And no I'm not saying it's just Brexit Buddies who do that, ProEuerers do it too.

Tbh I don't really have a side on Brexit any more. I think it's very naive to think that the economy will do well with Brexit. But then, I also sort of think the EU is ****ed anyway. And sort of the whole western world. Because in the 80's everyone put their eggs in one neoliberal basket and 30 years later, neoliberalism is failing.

So Brexit, no Brexit, whatever, I don't think it makes much difference. The economy is going to suffer for a long time either way.

How's that for some positivity :joker:.


My only real hope is that Scottish Indy does happen because I believe that small scale economies of less than 10 million people are far more able to support normal citizens in times of economic hardship than larger 50+ million economies, which foster elitism and leave everyone else behind.

I appreciate your honest post. We none of us know, we can only speculate based on our own opinions and that of those we choose to believe.

[Toy Soldier]

The difference in opinions between the experts demonstrates that no-one knows anything as fact and that all 'forecasts' are based on the 'opinions' of the experts. No-one can say with any certainty that one group of experts know better than the other - as usual it comes down to opinions not facts.


If you truly believe this, though, then why say:


Yet more good news for Brexit.

?

Surely you should be saying something like, "Another encouraging opinion about Brexit". Because as you say, it isn't news, it isn't something that has happened yet. At this point it's just speculation and - as you have said - speculation goes both ways so is largely meaningless. The only thing that will be "news" (good or bad) are the real facts and figures post-Brexit in a few years time. As things stand currently, the pound has taken a massive blow and has yet to recover at all. It MAY recover. It may go on to thrive again. Until something actually changes though, there is no "news".

[Brillopad]

If you truly believe this, though, then why say:



?

Surely you should be saying something like, "Another encouraging opinion about Brexit". Because as you say, it isn't news, it isn't something that has happened yet. At this point it's just speculation and - as you have said - speculation goes both ways so is largely meaningless. The only thing that will be "news" (good or bad) are the real facts and figures post-Brexit in a few years time. As things stand currently, the pound has taken a massive blow and has yet to recover at all. It MAY recover. It may go on to thrive again. Until something actually changes though, there is no "news".

Because so many pretend to 'know' what is going to happen with Brexit based on their opinions. People present these opinions as fact when actually they are not and I guess I counteract this by doing the same. They don't like it either.

Yes I could put it better, couldn't we all, but often irritations and annoyance get in the way. Human nature tends to lead us to respond to like with like. No it isn't helpful but if that is the template set out it gets to become the norm.

[Toy Soldier]

Yes I could put it better, couldn't we all, but often irritations and annoyance get in the way. Human nature tends to lead us to respond to like with like. No it isn't helpful but if that is the template set out it gets to become the norm.

Fair. And a pretty succinct summing up of TiBB Serious Debates & News :joker:.

[jaxie]

The economy is in the toilet because of brexit, how is this more good news? There hasn't been any good news yet

The economy isn't in the toilet and Brexit hasn't happened yet we are still in the EU.

This is good news. I've always favoured a so called hard Brexit perhaps we should just get on with it. (ie leaving the EU rather than clinging to bits of it).

[DemolitionRed]

Think I'll take the words of an informed economist over that of a fear driven remainer thanks.

Minford is being heavily criticized by other economists. I'm going to read up on this later because it has to be read and understood from all sides.

[Tom4784]

Experts' opinions only matter to leavers if they are telling them what they want to hear.

Remember Gove during the Brexit campaign telling people to ignore the legions of economists from across the board saying that Brexit was a bad idea?

[jaxie]

Experts' opinions only matter to leavers if they are telling them what they want to hear.

Remember Gove during the Brexit campaign telling people to ignore the legions of economists from across the board saying that Brexit was a bad idea?

And that is exactly the same when it's those who want to remain so what's the point of saying it like it's something unique, everyone on here is attracted to news that supports their perspective.

You actually think anyone listens to Michael Gove except maybe his mum? :laugh:

[Withano]

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/8-161213055533/95/datafying-public-sphere-fragmented-audience-media-and-democracy-19-638.jpg?cb=1481609065

[Brillopad]

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/8-161213055533/95/datafying-public-sphere-fragmented-audience-media-and-democracy-19-638.jpg?cb=1481609065

He's the biggest pillock going - so try again if you must. :shrug:

[Tom4784]

And that is exactly the same when it's those who want to remain so what's the point of saying it like it's something unique, everyone on here is attracted to news that supports their perspective.

You actually think anyone listens to Michael Gove except maybe his mum? :laugh:

I always heed what people with vastly more knowledge than me on a subject have to say. Gove's words obviously had an effect because I remember a lot of Leave voters on here basically echoing his words and doing their best to discredit what mass amounts of experts had to say because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

If basically all the economic experts with all their different agendas, lifestyles, thoughts and opinions are alligned by saying that Brexit is a bad idea then you listen.

[Northern Monkey]

Yeah the thing with economists is they're usually either wrong or blind.They predict things off the mark or don't predict them at all.
We probably won't know until we're out for a few years.The good thing is that all the doom and gloom predicted immediate post Brexit vote didn't unfold.

[DemolitionRed]

What Prof Minford says

But Prof Minford said: “’Hard Brexit’ is good for the UK economically while ‘soft Brexit’ leaves us as badly off as before. ‘Hard’ is economically much superior to ‘soft’.

“Backers of ‘Soft Brexit’ say it would preserve jobs, but what they really mean is that it would preserve existing jobs by stopping competition from home and abroad.

“As every schoolboy knows and every politician ought to know, this aborting of competition reduces jobs in the long run.

“Competition increases productivity and so employment because higher wages paid for by higher productivity makes work more attractive.

“Competition also increases our general welfare because we are producing more.

What the critics say

Commenting on behalf of the Open Britain campaign group for close ties with the EU, Labour MP Alison McGovern said: “All anyone needs to know about this absurd plan is that its own author admits it would ‘mostly eliminate manufacturing’ in the UK.

“Unilaterally scrapping our tariffs without achieving similar reductions in the tariff rates of other countries would see Britain swamped with imports, leaving our manufacturers and farmers unable to compete.

“The levels of bankruptcy and unemployment, especially in industry and agriculture, would sky-rocket.

“This is a project of economic suicide, not prosperity. No responsible government would touch this report with a barge pole as a source of ideas for our future trade policy.”

Prof Minford put forward his ideas in the run-up to June 2016’s EU referendum, although he admitted in a column for the Sun: “Over time, if we left the EU, it seems likely that we would mostly eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech. But this shouldn’t scare us.”

What economists think will happen to your spending power, your job and your house price while Brexit is negotiated (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/economists-brexit-you-think-job-13225288)

[DemolitionRed]

You constantly keep implying you know best - It is an opinion nothing more.

The difference in opinions between the experts demonstrates that no-one knows anything as fact and that all 'forecasts' are based on the 'opinions' of the experts. No-one can say with any certainty that one group of experts know better than the other - as usual it comes down to opinions not facts.

Please quit the playground tactics - you are wasting your time.

Then why not put a question mark at the end of the title. Your header implies its factual, not speculative.

[Kizzy]

Hard brexit isn't scary.....tory brexit is scary.

[Brillopad]

Hard brexit isn't scary.....tory brexit is scary.

You were anti-Brexit fullstop, especially a hard Brexit. Now you are changing your stance knowing that Corbyn's Brexit will be a hard one. How convenient.

Your 'principles' change to suit! You support a hard left politician just admit it.

[Kizzy]

You were anti-Brexit fullstop, especially a hard Brexit. Now you are changing your stance knowing that Corbyn's Brexit will be a hard one. How convenient.

Your 'principles' change to suit! You support a hard left politician just admit it.

I was anti brexit, know what changed my mind? TTIP. I feel tory brexit will be TTIP on acid. Hard or soft was never my issue, my focus was on maintaining rights, protections and standards.

I support a politician who has vowed to do that, not sure why you are so affronted by this.
Maybe I should just be as steadfastly blinkered as yourself? god forbid you rethink your opinion on anything :laugh:

[Brillopad]

I was anti brexit, know what changed my mind? TTIP. I feel tory brexit will be TTIP on acid. Hard or soft was never my issue, my focus was on maintaining rights, protections and standards.

I support a politician who has vowed to do that, not sure why you are so affronted by this.
Maybe I should just be as steadfastly blinkered as yourself? god forbid you rethink your opinion on anything :laugh:

There's nothing wrong with someone changing their opinion, it's the reason why that counts. It just comes across as more of a forced decision rather than one that is in keeping with your expressed views.

[Kizzy]

There's nothing wrong with someone changing their opinion, it's the reason why that counts. It just comes across as more of a forced decision rather than one that is in keeping with your expressed views.

Are you stalking me?...

I just gave you a reason, and they correspond directly to my expressed views...
My explicit concern from the off was civil rights and protections.

[Brillopad]

Are you stalking me?...

I just gave you a reason, and they correspond directly to my expressed views...
My explicit concern from the off was civil rights and protections.

Just responding to your post. Don't know where the stalking comment comes from. :puzzled:

[Kizzy]

Just responding to your post. Don't know where the stalking comment comes from. :puzzled:

I gave you a valid response to your query and you are still challenging my views on the subject, I'm wondering what the issue is?

[Brillopad]

I gave you a valid response to your query and you are still challenging my views on the subject, I'm wondering what the issue is?

I'm not challenging them. I've said my piece. There is no issue.

[Brillopad]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/844676/EU-European-Union-immigration-asylum-seeker-refugee-migrant-crisis-Angela-Merkel-Italy

What happens next I wonder. Even Macron has been forced to eat his words.

[jaxie]

I think that was clear almost from the beginning. What worries me is what is happening to all these people being deported to Turkey. The president of Turkey is easing his way into a dictatorship and is a dodgy guy. The EU just seem to want to get rid of the refugee s now and don't seem to feel any moral responsibility toeards them. I suspect a scandal is coming re the fate of these people being deported.

And why aren't they doing more to support the countries where migrants are crossing into Europe. This is Merkel's cock up, she told them all to come but nothing is being done for the countries having to deal with the brunt of numbers.

[Brillopad]

I think that was clear almost from the beginning. What worries me is what is happening to all these people being deported to Turkey. The president of Turkey is easing his way into a dictatorship and is a dodgy guy. The EU just seem to want to get rid of the refugee s now and don't seem to feel any moral responsibility toeards them. I suspect a scandal is coming re the fate of these people being deported.

And why aren't they doing more to support the countries where migrants are crossing into Europe. This is Merkel's cock up, she told them all to come but nothing is being done for the countries having to deal with the brunt of numbers.

There is an election coming up in Germany - lets hope they finally get rid of her. She has caused chaos in Europe with poorly thought through policies that have had a negative impact on so many.

[Oliver_W]

The borders should have been fully defended from the beginning tbh

[Toy Soldier]

The borders should have been fully defended from the beginning tbh

The beginning of time? :worry:

[Oliver_W]

The beginning of time? :worry:

The beginning of the migrant crisis.

[Brillopad]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/846097/European-Union-migrant-crisis-Dimitris-Avramopoulos-development-aid-Mediterranean

Finally! Refugee status is being abused - we all know it. Economic migrants need to return to their own countries and it now has to be enforced as things cannot go on as they are. We can all sympathise with the plight of these people but there have to be other ways to address this.

Every Western country and Government, including France and Canada who previously seemed more open to the idea, has had enough of the sheer numbers involved.

[Northern Monkey]

Only about a year too late.The EU has handled this terribly.Especially Merkel.

[Brillopad]

Only about a year too late.The EU has handled this terribly.Especially Merkel.

They have. Merkel created this mess and she should pay for it with her job. Bumbling incomepetent woman who gave little thought to the impact it would have on others.

[Oliver_W]

The migrant crisis should never have been allowed to get to the point it has. Gotta feel sorry for women and children living in Germany, Austria, and France :/

[Brillopad]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/846560/EU-rules-legislation-vacuum-cleaners-UK-limit-sales-Brexit-news-latest

Don't know about anyone else but this is the first I have heard about this!:shocked:

I can't understand why there hasn't been more publicity about it! Stupid,stupid, stupid.

What about those with dust allergies and asthma? Absolute madness.

I currently have 2 dysons but now feel I should stock up for the future!

[RileyH]

they're banning hoovers?

[DemolitionRed]

Power isn't the same as efficiency. All these new battery operated hoovers work on low energy but high efficiency so they won't be affected. Neither will any of the Dyson hoovers because none of them produce more than 1,600 watts. Before we all rush out and buy an about to be banned powerful vacuum cleaner, keep in mind that suction power is all in the design and not in the power.

[Toy Soldier]

:worry: I'm off to check the power rating on my precious Henry. They can't take him they just can't! I'll Brexit the CRAP out of this town before I let those goddang EU bureaucrats take my Henry :fist:.

[smudgie]

The wattage drops from 1600 watts to 900 watts this September.
Dyson don't go above 1400 watts.
One of the reasons James Dyson wants us out of the EU.
Curry shave a small ball on offer for £199 this week.

[Brillopad]

Power isn't the same as efficiency. All these new battery operated hoovers work on low energy but high efficiency so they won't be affected. Neither will any of the Dyson hoovers because none of them produce more than 1,600 watts. Before we all rush out and buy an about to be banned powerful vacuum cleaner, keep in mind that suction power is all in the design and not in the power.

I pray you are right - I swear by my Dysons.

[Brillopad]

The wattage drops from 1600 watts to 900 watts this September.
Dyson don't go above 1400 watts.
One of the reasons James Dyson wants us out of the EU.
Curry shave a small ball on offer for £199 this week.

I was thinking that Smudgie. Get at least one in reserve for the 'Unknown'. TBH I'm still in shock, a real bolt from the blue for me.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The wattage drops from 1600 watts to 900 watts this September.
Dyson don't go above 1400 watts.
One of the reasons James Dyson wants us out of the EU.
Curry shave a small ball on offer for £199 this week.


exsqueeze me?

[DemolitionRed]

:worry: I'm off to check the power rating on my precious Henry. They can't take him they just can't! I'll Brexit the CRAP out of this town before I let those goddang EU bureaucrats take my Henry :fist:.

Haha! I've got a Herny too and he's very good.

[DemolitionRed]

The wattage drops from 1600 watts to 900 watts this September.
Dyson don't go above 1400 watts.
One of the reasons James Dyson wants us out of the EU.
Curry shave a small ball on offer for £199 this week.

Wow, when did that change? Up until a year ago it was anything under 1600w :conf:

[Crimson Dynamo]

go to any general auction and you can pick up a 1600w for about a tenner

[Brillopad]

900w is too low and will make vaccuming a much more cumbersome job. That's EU 'progress' for you - clearly a decision made by men who likely have never vacuumed in their lives.

[DemolitionRed]

The good news is, Henry uses 620w. The older style Dyson uses 1190w but now have a range of 14 vacuum cleaners that sit at 900w or less. The other thing is, manufacturers are allowed to continue selling high wattage vacuums providing they don't make or buy in from abroad new stock.

The point of this is, high efficiency can still be used by using less energy because we now have the technology to do that, if we didn't, Dyson wouldn't have been able to make 14 low energy cleaners. It will cost us less in electricity and its globally friendly.

[JTM45]

900w is too low and will make vaccuming a much more cumbersome job. That's EU 'progress' for you - clearly a decision made by men who likely have never vacuumed in their lives.

And you try and throw the sexist label at me!
I do my own vaccuming and i go around to my parents and do theirs as well 'cos they're getting on and don't find it easy.

[Toy Soldier]

Haha! I've got a Herny too and he's very good.Mines nearly as old as my first daughter. He's my only son!

[Toy Soldier]

The good news is, Henry uses 620w. The older style Dyson uses 1190w but now have a range of 14 vacuum cleaners that sit at 900w or less. The other thing is, manufacturers are allowed to continue selling high wattage vacuums providing they don't make or buy in from abroad new stock.

The point of this is, high efficiency can still be used by using less energy because we now have the technology to do that, if we didn't, Dyson wouldn't have been able to make 14 low energy cleaners. It will cost us less in electricity and its globally friendly.Oh. Well Henry is like 20x better than a Dyson so maybe this proves size isn't everything...

[Brillopad]

And you try and throw the sexist label at me!
I do my own vaccuming and i go around to my parents and do theirs as well 'cos they're getting on and don't find it easy.

Of course many men do do the vacuuming but I bet those Brussels bureaucrats that make these decisions don't.

[Brillopad]

Oh. Well Henry is like 20x better than a Dyson so maybe this proves size isn't everything...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vacuum-cleaner-ban-you-need-4125836

[Toy Soldier]

Forget pets and asthma sufferers... What about those of us who have messy 5 year olds whose favourite snack is teeny, tiny cut up cubes of cheese :fist:.

[Brillopad]

http://dysonmedic.co.uk/new-eu-900w-vacuum-cleaner-rules-in-september-2017/

[DemolitionRed]

Oh. Well Henry is like 20x better than a Dyson so maybe this proves size isn't everything...

Absolutely!!

[DemolitionRed]

Reconditioned machines are not restricted under EU law. In that case, big powered Dysons will be around forever.

[smudgie]

exsqueeze me?

:joker::joker: currys have.
iPad and my grammar make no sense.

[smudgie]

Wow, when did that change? Up until a year ago it was anything under 1600w :conf:

Changes this September, so maybe starts on Friday.:shrug:

[Kizzy]

900w is too low and will make vaccuming a much more cumbersome job. That's EU 'progress' for you - clearly a decision made by men who likely have never vacuumed in their lives.

Educate yourself

http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-appliances/vacuum-cleaners/1402574/best-vacuum-cleaner-2016-cordless-cylinder-and-upright/page/0/2

[T*]

:worry: I'm off to check the power rating on my precious Henry. They can't take him they just can't! I'll Brexit the CRAP out of this town before I let those goddang EU bureaucrats take my Henry :fist:.

omg I love my Henry too

[the truth]

theyre farking eejiots...why dont they try doing their own accounts for the first time in 20 years or reducing corporate fraud at all time levels running to 100s of trillions?

[RileyH]

:worry: I'm off to check the power rating on my precious Henry. They can't take him they just can't! I'll Brexit the CRAP out of this town before I let those goddang EU bureaucrats take my Henry :fist:.

they'll have to get through me first before they take my henry :fist:

[jaxie]

theyre farking eejiots...why dont they try doing their own accounts for the first time in 20 years or reducing corporate fraud at all time levels running to 100s of trillions?

Yeah this.

[Brillopad]

https://www.bbench.co.uk/single-post/2016/05/18/The-economic-lies-of-the-Remain-camp-deserve-to-be-shattered-1

I think this piece does a lot to help dispel all the ridiculous scaremongering and downright lies from the remain camp to stop Brexit.

Also, as I stated in a previous thread, the hard Brexit, soft Brexit debacle is a con created by bitter remoaners. Soft Brexit is a Brexit in name only - effectively a no-Brexit. It is a blatant insult to everyone, whatever side of the debate, to expect them to buy into it.

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/749192/soft-brexit-fake-it-amounts-to-no-EU-exit-at-all

[Toy Soldier]

None of it is referenced or cited at all, though, so how can it dispel anything? He's just saying stuff without providing any links to actual evidence if what he's saying. I'm not saying it's untrue (I couldn't say either way) or badly written... Just that it holds no more weight than any forum or social media post. It's just one guy sharing his thoughts with no verified facts or figures :shrug:.

[Brillopad]

None of it is referenced or cited at all, though, so how can it dispel anything? He's just saying stuff without providing any links to actual evidence if what he's saying. I'm not saying it's untrue (I couldn't say either way) or badly written... Just that it holds no more weight than any forum or social media post. It's just one guy sharing his thoughts with no verified facts or figures :shrug:.

It makes sense though and I doubt he would have put it out there if it was incorrect, as I'm sure the main points mentioned could fairly easily be proved or disproved with a bit of research.

https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/publications_e/wtocan_e.pdf

Haven't had time to read the above as too long but would imagine an answer would be in there somewhere.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36029211

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-jobs-and-eu/

[MTVN]

This article was written a month before the referendum even happened

[Brillopad]

This article was written a month before the referendum even happened

How does that affect The points he makes though?

[Kizzy]

'With a seat at the WTO, we will no doubt organise better trade deals for Britain instead of being tied to the failed Common Commercial Policy of the EU. Those who support Brexit are the true champions of globalisation, not the failed regionalisation of the EU that has caused abject misery across Europe.'

Well well who would have thought that brexit would mean more globalisation, let's hope these WTO deals are tied to free movement, I'll laugh my arse off.

[Brillopad]

'With a seat at the WTO, we will no doubt organise better trade deals for Britain instead of being tied to the failed Common Commercial Policy of the EU. Those who support Brexit are the true champions of globalisation, not the failed regionalisation of the EU that has caused abject misery across Europe.'

Well well who would have thought that brexit would mean more globalisation, let's hope these WTO deals are tied to free movement, I'll laugh my arse off.

No they are not! :joker:

[MTVN]

How does that affect The points he makes though?

It dates from a time when both sides were largely speculating and in the context of the referendum campaign. There must be better and more up to date analyses now that we're more than a year past the vote

[Kizzy]

No they are not! :joker:

How do you know? It hasn't happened yet :/

[Brillopad]

How do you know? It hasn't happened yet :/

Because I have read it somewhere. I'll dig it out later as I don't have time now.

[Kizzy]

Because I have read it somewhere. I'll dig it out later as I don't have time now.

Deals haven't been struck yet... how can you know things before they happen?
Anything is possible once we enter the WTO.

[Tom4784]

The Referendum happened last year, Brillo. There's no stopping it now. It's going to be a ****show and blaming people who voted Remain won't change a thing.

The Leave camp made their bed, now they must lie in it.

[Brillopad]

Deals haven't been struck yet... how can you know things before they happen?
Anything is possible once we enter the WTO.

Don't know what you are on about - we are already a member of the WTO - have been for years - and free movement is not a requirement.

[Kizzy]

Don't know what you are on about - we are already a member of the WTO - have been for years - and free movement is not a requirement.

'The UK is still a member of the WTO but sacrificed its independent seat when it joined the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1973 and became represented by the European Union (EU) in external trade negotiations.

By reprising its own membership once it break ties with Brussels, Britain could rely on its membership of the WTO for access to European markets and as a first step towards full-blown free trade agreements with other blocs and countries – including the EU.'

That means we don’t need to start all over again or reapply – we just need to comply with our new obligations.

We don't have a seat, we will have to retake our seat and to do that we will have certain 'obligations' ... Who knows what they will be?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/714058/Liam-Fox-launch-bid-UK-re-enter-World-Trade-Organisation-Todd-McClay-free-trade-nation

[Brillopad]

'The UK is still a member of the WTO but sacrificed its independent seat when it joined the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1973 and became represented by the European Union (EU) in external trade negotiations.

By reprising its own membership once it break ties with Brussels, Britain could rely on its membership of the WTO for access to European markets and as a first step towards full-blown free trade agreements with other blocs and countries – including the EU.'

That means we don’t need to start all over again or reapply – we just need to comply with our new obligations.

We don't have a seat, we will have to retake our seat and to do that we will have certain 'obligations' ... Who knows what they will be?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/714058/Liam-Fox-launch-bid-UK-re-enter-World-Trade-Organisation-Todd-McClay-free-trade-nation

Whatever those 'obligations' are they won't be free movement. Free movement is part of EU negotiations, not the WTOs.

[Kizzy]

Whatever those 'obligations' are they won't be free movement. Free movement is part of EU negotiations, not the WTOs.

That's right, WTO have mode 4 of GATS.

Here's what it will mean for us...

'Race to the bottom'
Mode 4, according to a definition by the WTO, refers to the "temporary movement of natural persons: when independent service providers or employees of a multinational firm temporarily move to another country".
Indian officials called for 40,000 workers to come to Europe under this scheme but EU negotiators said it should be half that. Twelve thousand of those could come to the UK.

Linda Kaucher, an academic studying trade deals, says this would not be good for British workers.
"I think it means an absolute race to the bottom now and in the future for jobs for UK workers," she says. "Numbers studying computing at university have slumped here because people don't want to be in competition with cheap labour. That means a real de-skilling for the country."

In a statement to the EU, she said that "insofar as Mode 4 allows corporations to bring cheaper labour into EU countries and capitalise on the wage differential, workers in the host countries have a great deal to lose".
The TUC has joined the debate, saying it does not want commitments that could lead to the exploitation of Indian workers or those already with access to the UK jobs market.
Owen Tudor, head of the TUC's EU and international relations department, tells the BBC that he is worried about "the under-cutting of the labour market in the UK, particularly for skilled graduates".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20525842

[Brillopad]

That's right, WTO have mode 4 of GATS.

Here's what it will mean for us...

'Race to the bottom'
Mode 4, according to a definition by the WTO, refers to the "temporary movement of natural persons: when independent service providers or employees of a multinational firm temporarily move to another country".
Indian officials called for 40,000 workers to come to Europe under this scheme but EU negotiators said it should be half that. Twelve thousand of those could come to the UK.

Linda Kaucher, an academic studying trade deals, says this would not be good for British workers.
"I think it means an absolute race to the bottom now and in the future for jobs for UK workers," she says. "Numbers studying computing at university have slumped here because people don't want to be in competition with cheap labour. That means a real de-skilling for the country."

In a statement to the EU, she said that "insofar as Mode 4 allows corporations to bring cheaper labour into EU countries and capitalise on the wage differential, workers in the host countries have a great deal to lose".
The TUC has joined the debate, saying it does not want commitments that could lead to the exploitation of Indian workers or those already with access to the UK jobs market.
Owen Tudor, head of the TUC's EU and international relations department, tells the BBC that he is worried about "the under-cutting of the labour market in the UK, particularly for skilled graduates".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20525842

I really don't see that that would cause any significant issues as (from what I can tell from that and a couple of other documents I have read - not the easiest read) Mode 4 only includes; temporary movement, in practice highly skilled such as managers, executives and specialists, foreign employees of foreign companies established in the host country, self-employed and employees of a foreign supplier.

It does not include; permanent migration, residence, citizenship or employment on a permanent basis, persons working in non-service industries or persons' seeking to enter the employment market.

So no benefit claimants or people coming here to stay!

[Kizzy]

I really don't see that that would cause any significant issues as (from what I can tell from that and a couple of other documents I have read - not the easiest read) Mode 4 only includes; temporary movement, in practice highly skilled such as managers, executives and specialists, foreign employees of foreign companies established in the host country, self-employed and employees of a foreign supplier.

It does not include; permanent migration, residence, citizenship or employment on a permanent basis, persons working in non-service industries or persons' seeking to enter the employment market.

So no benefit claimants or people coming here to stay!

That means you can't come here looking for a job... but if you are coming here to DO a job, that's fine.
Employees of companies established in the host country? So that's quite a lot of employees in manufacturing, IT, engineering,
People working in the service industries are fine so that's unskilled workers covered housekeepers, waiting staff, bar and warehouse work.

Look at the original article I posted specifically this comment..

''Indian officials called for 40,000 workers to come to Europe under this scheme but EU negotiators said it should be half that. Twelve thousand of those could come to the UK.''

Without the EU negotiating how many will enter to take jobs, how can you suggest it won't have an impact?

[Brillopad]

That means you can't come here looking for a job... but if you are coming here to DO a job, that's fine.
Employees of companies established in the host country? So that's quite a lot of employees in manufacturing, IT, engineering,
People working in the service industries are fine so that's unskilled workers covered housekeepers, waiting staff, bar and warehouse work.

Look at the original article I posted specifically this comment..

''Indian officials called for 40,000 workers to come to Europe under this scheme but EU negotiators said it should be half that. Twelve thousand of those could come to the UK.''

Without the EU negotiating how many will enter to take jobs, how can you suggest it won't have an impact?

But according to remainers there will be a significant labour shortage after Brexit. Under WTO rules those filling those jobs will be here on an as needed basis and not with a plan of gaining permanent residency and all the benefits and entitlements that go along with that. We will have more control.

Under the open borders rules of a soft Brexit untold numbers will come here of which many will stay permanently and many will claim benefits and social housing etc. We will have no control. Many people voted to gain control of our borders - despite the leavers trying their best to ignore that crucial fact.

[the truth]

the government need to use more tradue union/civil service negotiator...this negotiation is beyond hardballl...demands for 100 billion divorce bills must be fought. There are many treasonous politicians like leanne wood who back the eu for this 100 billion against her own country. But we must fight it tooth and nail. We must itemise ever single penny weve invested for the past 40 odd years including the rebate. This was a legitimate democratic process and the corrupt unaccounted EU shouldnt be allowed to blackmail and bully us into near bankruptcy

[Kizzy]

But according to remainers there will be a significant labour shortage after Brexit. Under WTO rules those filling those jobs will be here on an as needed basis and not with a plan of gaining permanent residency and all the benefits and entitlements that go along with that. We will have more control.

Under the open borders rules of a soft Brexit untold numbers will come here of which many will stay permanently and many will claim benefits and social housing etc. We will have no control. Many people voted to gain control of our borders - despite the leavers trying their best to ignore that crucial fact.

And how does that help us?... How are we to gain secure permanent employment with a conveyor belt of cheap foreign labour, they will also have to have somewhere to live whilst here naturally are you advocating a rise in slum living, 10 to a room? :/

What use is social housing or any other housing if you have no job to pay for it? The whole issue surrounding the Eastern Europeans working in the UK was that they were taking jobs and undercutting wages not sitting on the dole.

What control do you have in all seriousness with mode 4? None, nothing is any different to how it was within the EU it's simply free movement in another guise.

[Brillopad]

And how does that help us?... How are we to gain secure permanent employment with a conveyor belt of cheap foreign labour, they will also have to have somewhere to live whilst here naturally are you advocating a rise in slum living, 10 to a room? :/

What use is social housing or any other housing if you have no job to pay for it? The whole issue surrounding the Eastern Europeans working in the UK was that they were taking jobs and undercutting wages not sitting on the dole.

What control do you have in all seriousness with mode 4? None, nothing is any different to how it was within the EU it's simply free movement in another guise.

We already have cheap foreign labour courtesy of free movement from the EU, but under WTO rules people won't have the right to settle here, only to work, giving us more control. Personally I don't believe Mode 4 will be a requirement but if it is there should be plenty of jobs for all when unlimited, uncontrolled migration from the EU stops.

It was after all the pro-EU open borders lot scaremongering about the effects stopping free movement from the EU would have on industry claiming business and industry would collapse without access to a regular supply of labour so hardly supports your theories that there won't be enough jobs.

[Brillopad]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/09/eu-immigration-offer-brexit-reversal-adonis

Thoughts!

[smudgie]

Could...that magic word again.
The opportunity to do this was given to EU when Mr.Cameron was in talks with them, they would not move on it.
We voted for Brexit, so Brexit it should be, if a mutual decent deal can't be done then so be it.

[Brillopad]

Could...that magic word again.
The opportunity to do this was given to EU when Mr.Cameron was in talks with them, they would not move on it.
We voted for Brexit, so Brexit it should be, if a mutual decent deal can't be done then so be it.

Yes, pretty much agree with this.

[Oliver_W]

I think most Brexiteers voted exit because of migration, followed by integration/imposed laws. It would have saved a lot of fuss all round if the EU could just hand us back our borders...

[Toy Soldier]

We voted for Brexit, so Brexit it should be, if a mutual decent deal can't be done then so be it.

Sheer stubbornness? Sticking with a bad decision just because "that's the decision you made" is a really bad idea... On any level, individual or national. It is completely legitimate for the country to have collectively had a rethink. I wouldn't advocate the government going against the result, or "vote after vote until you get your way" as seems to be some people's concern, but having a second referendum to gauge whether the country still feels the same after the dust has settled or if there has been some major shift in opinion is completely legitimate. And sensible.

[Oliver_W]

but having a second referendum to gauge whether the country still feels the same after the dust has settled or if there has been some major shift in opinion is completely legitimate. And sensible.
A YouGov poll found 70% (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/734572/Brexit-YouGov-poll-leave-eu-referendum-Remain-voters)of Brits just want to "get on with it", there's no need for a second ref.

[Toy Soldier]

A YouGov poll found 70% (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/734572/Brexit-YouGov-poll-leave-eu-referendum-Remain-voters)of Brits just want to "get on with it", there's no need for a second ref.An informal poll showing that people are sick of politics, elections and votes is in no way any indication that the national opinion hasn't changed. I'm not even saying it HAS changed; just that this is not evidence that it hasn't.

People want to "just get on with it" because of rapidly increasing political apathy.

A double referendum should have been the plan from the start to be honest. From before the first vote. An initial vote to gauge public interest in leaving, followed by seriously looking into the practicalities of leaving if the vote was anywhere over, say, 40% leave and then a final vote a year or 18 months later to gauge final opinion.

In our case the first vote was taken when there was barely any information available on what Brexit actually would entail. People didn't know what they were really voting on, on either side. Again I'm not saying the result would necessarily be any different now, just that the first poll - and what followed with our internal politics - was more than a bit of a shambles, and what we're left with is a government effectively "winging it" through the biggest political shift in three generations. But "we should just get on with it woteva", I guess?

[Brillopad]

Sheer stubbornness? Sticking with a bad decision just because "that's the decision you made" is a really bad idea... On any level, individual or national. It is completely legitimate for the country to have collectively had a rethink. I wouldn't advocate the government going against the result, or "vote after vote until you get your way" as seems to be some people's concern, but having a second referendum to gauge whether the country still feels the same after the dust has settled or if there has been some major shift in opinion is completely legitimate. And sensible.

It still amounts to over-turning a vote if some are opposed to it. What happens if we do and many people are still unhappy and rightly feel they have been conned and start wanting another vote- best of three. It is ridiculous. If we had been told two from the start maybe, but to simply impose another to change the vote is taking liberties and amounts to an undemocratic piss-take.

[Toy Soldier]

It still amounts to over-turning a vote if some are opposed to it. What happens if we do and many people are still unhappy and rightly feel they have been conned and start wanting another vote- best of three. It is ridiculous. If we had been told two from the start maybe, but to simply impose another to change the vote is taking liberties and amounts to an undemocratic piss-take.

If as many people still want to leave now as did a year ago then why would the result come out any different?

[UserSince2005]

the EU is so desperate, we dont need them.

[Vicky.]

An informal poll showing that people are sick of politics, elections and votes is in no way any indication that the national opinion hasn't changed. I'm not even saying it HAS changed; just that this is not evidence that it hasn't.

People want to "just get on with it" because of rapidly increasing political apathy.

A double referendum should have been the plan from the start to be honest. From before the first vote. An initial vote to gauge public interest in leaving, followed by seriously looking into the practicalities of leaving if the vote was anywhere over, say, 40% leave and then a final vote a year or 18 months later to gauge final opinion.

In our case the first vote was taken when there was barely any information available on what Brexit actually would entail. People didn't know what they were really voting on, on either side. Again I'm not saying the result would necessarily be any different now, just that the first poll - and what followed with our internal politics - was more than a bit of a shambles, and what we're left with is a government effectively "winging it" through the biggest political shift in three generations. But "we should just get on with it woteva", I guess?
Yes, for sure if the result had been so close but the other way around leavers would be livid about it and crying for another vote as it was pretty much 50/50. I remember Farage saying before the result he would keep fighting for more votes if the result was close (obviously when he thought the result would be stay...never mentioned again after the shock result)

I don't think something that important should be decided with such a low margin...

Many people who voted didn't actually know what they were voting for besides 'immigration' and 'money for the NHS'. That goes for both leave and stay voters. Not many knew the full implications of any vote they made...and I still can't believe the amount of lies told during the campaigns and that. Totally wrong.

I would put myself in the 'just get on with it' camp...but only as I am so sick of hearing about the damn thing. Doesn't mean that I changed my mind and want to actually leave now. Still think it is a bad thing for the country and we will regret it, but such is life I guess.

The whole thing was a shambles, no exit plan or anything. No vote should ever have been given until there was a plan for BOTH outcomes. Cameron is a cock. I know most expected a stay vote and he only gave the vote as he was scared of UKIPs popularity, but come the **** on. A huge vote like that with no plans at all, just assuming it will go one way?! Absolute tosser.

[Tom4784]

I want a hard brexit so that people can learn to be smarter with their vote in future after they realise how ****ed they are.

That being said, the delicious irony of Leavers getting a soft brexit after buying into May's 'No deal is better than a bad deal' bull**** and ignoring all the u-turns she's done since she's been in power would be quite satisfying too.

[Vicky.]

I want a hard brexit so that people can learn to be smarter with their vote in future after they realise how ****ed they are.

That being said, the delicious irony of Leavers getting a soft brexit after buying into May's 'No deal is better than a bad deal' bull**** and ignoring all the u-turns she's done since she's been in power would be quite satisfying too.

Thats a bit cutting off ones nose to spite its face though really.

Also it wouldn't change anything. Look at general election results...so many voted Tory to 'get the scroungers', ended up begin affected/due to be affected by ridiculous changes themselves, yet still bought into the 'scroungers' rhetoric and voted for them again :laugh: This is from experience rather than anything else. 3 of my friends voted Tory believing that the genuine disabled would not be affected by the ridiculous cuts, and 2 of those people have ended up with their (very disabled) parents losing their DLA and magically being cured by ATOS...one of whom has a terminal illness too and is having to go through tribunal, which they probably in all honesty wont even still be alive to see through til the end...

People (on both sides..this is not exclusive to right wing voters) believe whats in the papers too much. Seemingly not realising that most, if not all, papers have their own agenda.

[Tom4784]

Ignorance can only be cured with experience, people want a hard brexit so I say let them have it and learn from the experience they'll get.

It's spite but it's the only way people will learn. The fact that the Tories failed to achieve a majority is a sign that people CAN learn.

[Withano]

A YouGov poll found 70% (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/734572/Brexit-YouGov-poll-leave-eu-referendum-Remain-voters)of Brits just want to "get on with it", there's no need for a second ref.

I would vote get the **** on with it too in that poll. Its ridiculous how long theyre dragging this out. It almost seems like delay-tactics from May.

But then I'd obviously vote remain if there was a 2nd 'are u sure' referendum because even if I was uncertain 14 months ago (I wasn't), it'd be crystal clear now (it really is) that remain is the better of the two options.

I'm just bored to **** with it! Everywhere you turn its just people pointing blame at others for the mess, theres never seems to be positive news about it, just maybes, ifs, and buts..

just get on with it is my stance tbh, and then the parties can all start working out how they'd bring us out of its mess, and we can start discussing that instead. I'm just getting second-hand embarrassment for the hardcore leavers atm, they've been right mugged off.

[Vicky.]

I would vote get the **** on with it too in that poll. Its ridiculous how long theyre dragging this out. It almost seems like delay-tactics from May.

But then I'd obviously vote remain if there was a 2nd 'are u sure' referendum because even if I was uncertain 14 months ago (I wasn't), it'd be crystal clear now (it really is) that remain is the better of the two options.

I'm just bored to **** with it! Everywhere you turn its just people pointing blame at others for the mess, theres never seems to be positive news about it, just maybes, ifs, and buts..

just get on with it is my stance tbh, and then the parties can all start working out how they'd bring us out of its mess, and we can start discussing that instead. I'm just getting second-hand embarrassment for the hardcore leavers atm, they've been right mugged off.
You mean how they can pin the blame onto each other, whilst not actually sorting anything? Which is politics in a nutshell really.

[Withano]

You mean how they can pin the blame onto each other, whilst not actually sorting anything? Which is politics in a nutshell really.

I think it would be very difficult for anyone to blame the outcome of Brexit on anyone other than the Tories?... Or the GBP which wouldnt go down well, so they'd probably avoid that!
Although you are probably right, the Tories will probably blame everyone else for not agreeing with their every word, and that'll probably become the debate of the year.

[Vicky.]

I think it would be very difficult for anyone to blame the outcome of Brexit on anyone other than the Tories?... Or the GBP which wouldnt go down well, so they'd probably avoid that!
Although you are probably right, the Tories will probably blame everyone else for not agreeing with their every word, and that'll probably become the debate of the year.

You would think, but I genuinely can see it being all 'we could have had a better outcome if Corbyn would have gone along with what we wanted' or something :umm2: Whilst some people would obviously know this was bollocks, others would actually think Corbyn was at fault for whatever the Tories do with the cluster****.

I have seen a fair few people who are already moaning about how the other parties are 'making' the Tories **** up brexit, as the other parties will not work with them?! And saying Labour should be backing up May also and basically..not opposing her on anything as Brexit is the most important thing for the entire country. Conveniently forgetting that it was the Tpries who called the ridiculous election in the middle of the brexit rubbish...and all because of arrogance and thinking they would obliterate Labour.

[Underscore]

the EU is so desperate, we dont need them.

The EU is the best thing since sliced bread.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The EU is the best thing since sliced bread.

sorry sliced white bread is banned under new EU guidelines, its racist and sizeist and to protect the German baking industry we must import bread of colour from Dresden at £5 a loaf.

[jaxie]

The EU is the best thing since sliced bread.

Why, what's so great about it?

[Brillopad]

Ignorance can only be cured with experience, people want a hard brexit so I say let them have it and learn from the experience they'll get.

It's spite but it's the only way people will learn. The fact that the Tories failed to achieve a majority is a sign that people CAN learn.

Learn what. As experts on both sides have differing opinions on the outcome, and it hasn't been done before, no-one really knows what will happen for sure. Many think they do but that doesn't mean they are right. The only way to know for sure is to do it.

The Tories failed to get a majority but they still did better than Labour despite all the broken promises.

[Tom4784]

Learn what. As experts on both sides have differing opinions on the outcome, and it hasn't been done before, no-one really knows what will happen for sure. Many think they do but that doesn't mean they are right. The only way to know for sure is to do it.

The Tories failed to get a majority but they still did better than Labour despite all the broken promises.

The foolishness of voting in ignorance. Blind faith isn't going to change a thing.

Your last sentence seems like a petty jibe to me, I don't support Labour, I support whatever party alligns best with my views at the time.

Crowing on about Labour won't change the fact that the Tories went from a strong Majority Government to having to make deals to form a Minority one.

[Denver]

I wonder if the same people feel the same in 10 years when the EU is no more.

They are corrupts and thieves

[Brillopad]

I wonder if the same people feel the same in 10 years when the EU is no more.

They are corrupts and thieves

They are Adam. They have certainly exposed themselves as the immature, spiteful, bitter and corrupt idiots that they are. They are the embarrassment.

[Underscore]

Why, what's so great about it?

Let me summise:

- Access to the single market
- 43 years of peace
- ERASMUS+ opportunities for students to live and work abroad
- Action on climate change with investment in renewable energies
- European Medicine Agency
- Clean air quality
- International Academic Collaboration
- European Arrest Warrant
- European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development
- EU Export Market (54% of UK goods and 40% of UK services)
- Equal Pay Laws
- Clean Beaches
- The Customs Union
- Cheaper Air Travel
- Fisheries Funding
- Consumer Rights Protection
- Animal Rights Protection
- Infrastructure Funding
- Protected Status for UK foods
- Research Funding
- Biodiversity Strategy
- Cheaper and easier holidays

If you wish for me to elaborate and extend on any points I can.

All or most of this will go. The only way to save at least half of this will be if Theresa May negotiates a good deal (unlikely) or if we have a second ref and the deal gets trashed and renegotiated democratically.

Also I forgot to add EURATOM.

Not all of the EU is bad.

[Underscore]

And I really don't get the mantra that we all need to jump on one boat and get behind Team Brexit, no. Not going to happen. Proof of that was Tories flopping.

I still have my EU flag waving outside my house.

[Underscore]

And before you all scream I'm Labour, I'm not. I'm a Liberal Democrat.

Although I was Tory till Brexit happened :blush:

[Brillopad]

Let me summise:

- Access to the single market
- 43 years of peace
- ERASMUS+ opportunities for students to live and work abroad
- Action on climate change with investment in renewable energies
- European Medicine Agency
- Clean air quality
- International Academic Collaboration
- European Arrest Warrant
- European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development
- EU Export Market (54% of UK goods and 40% of UK services)
- Equal Pay Laws
- Clean Beaches
- The Customs Union
- Cheaper Air Travel
- Fisheries Funding
- Consumer Rights Protection
- Animal Rights Protection
- Infrastructure Funding
- Protected Status for UK foods
- Research Funding
- Biodiversity Strategy
- Cheaper and easier holidays

If you wish for me to elaborate and extend on any points I can.

All or most of this will go. The only way to save at least half of this will be if Theresa May negotiates a good deal (unlikely) or if we have a second ref and the deal gets trashed and renegotiated democratically.

Also I forgot to add EURATOM.

Not all of the EU is bad.

The vote was democratic - trying to overturn that vote because you don't like it is undemocratic.

[Denver]

Have you seen British beaches?

[Underscore]

The vote was democratic - trying to overturn that vote because you don't like it is undemocratic.

I never said we should overturn the vote. I said we should have a vote on the deal

[Underscore]

Have you seen British beaches?

That is not a good enough excuse to scrap regulation about beaches all together.

[Underscore]

Have you seen British beaches?

And the regulation means the beaches are clean enough to be safe.

[Denver]

They have destroyed so many beautiful countries

[Tom4784]

The vote was democratic - trying to overturn that vote because you don't like it is undemocratic.

Where did he say he wanted to overturn it? He just stated it as a possibility.

Also, if there was a second referendum and the public voted against Brexit how would that be undemocratic? It's democracy in motion. Any vote that is decided by the public is democratic, not just the votes that went your way.

You really need to stop telling people they aren't democratic or that they don't respect democracy just because they don't share your views. You only pretend to respect democracy when it goes your way.

[Underscore]

They have destroyed so many beautiful countries

How :conf:

[Underscore]

Where did he say he wanted to overturn it? He just stated it as a possibility.

Also, if there was a second referendum and the public voted against Brexit how would that be undemocratic? It's democracy in motion. Any vote that is decided by the public is democratic, not just the votes that went your way.

You really need to stop telling people they aren't democratic or that they don't respect democracy just because they don't share your views. You only pretend to respect democracy when it goes your way.

This.

If we voted to Remain on a 52-48 margin, he/she would be totally up in arms and they wouldn't shut up about it.

[Vicky.]

The vote was democratic - trying to overturn that vote because you don't like it is undemocratic.

Not a person who voted leave would ever have asked for another vote if the result had been to stay by a small margin mind would they. Of course not :D

Leavers were already asking for another vote before the shock result came in. Farage included :laugh:

[Denver]

How :conf:

By crppling the economy of them

[Brillopad]

Where did he say he wanted to overturn it? He just stated it as a possibility.

Also, if there was a second referendum and the public voted against Brexit how would that be undemocratic? It's democracy in motion. Any vote that is decided by the public is democratic, not just the votes that went your way.

You really need to stop telling people they aren't democratic or that they don't respect democracy just because they don't share your views. You only pretend to respect democracy when it goes your way.

We were told back in 2016 there would be a referendum, not a second to ensure the remainers got the result they wanted. Maybe the leavers can demand a third democratic vote if they don't get the result they want.

It isn't democratic to overturn a public vote to get the vote you want. And that is what is happening here. It's you and some other remainers who only respect democracy when it goes their way. That has been demonstrated by the constant whinging from the remainers for the last year and constant demands to redo the vote.

[Underscore]

By crppling the economy of them

I hope you're not referring to Greece, because that was their own fault. Spending too much and never repaying back, dragging the Euro down with it.

That's Blaironomics for you! :smug:

[Denver]

the unreasonable financial restraints over them

[Underscore]

the unreasonable financial restraints over them

Such as

[Underscore]

Yeah I'm not saying the EU is perfect, it's too centred on a handful of countries. But the benefits for the UK outweigh the negatives which is why I voted Remain, and I would vote Remain again.

Also the single market is good for our family business so

[Denver]

The amount they have to pay back is totally unreasonable same with Spain and Cyprus no wonder the countries want out

[Denver]

They have stolen so much from the UK and still want billions more

[Underscore]

The amount they have to pay back is totally unreasonable same with Spain and Cyprus no wonder the countries want out

What countries want out?

[Denver]

What countries want out?

Spain, Greece, France, Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary and Germany will vote out soon as Hitler's daughter is gone

[Underscore]

They have stolen so much from the UK and still want billions more

As an EU federalist and wanting to see an EU group of states one day this really doesn't bother me, but it isn't nearly as bad as you make out.

Also the benefits of the EU outweigh the negatives in my view. But obviously as a hard Brexitter as I've found out you are this is very different.

[Underscore]

Spain, Greece, France, Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary and Germany will vote out soon as Hitler's daughter is gone

Hitler's daughter

:conf:

Also sources please.

In France they voted 65% for a Europhile this year against a raging racist europhobe.

[Underscore]

Also not being funny but a majority of seats in the European Parliament are occupied by pro-EU parties so :conf:

[Denver]

:conf:

Also sources please.

In France they voted 65% for a Europhile this year against a raging racist europhobe.

Just because they voted him in doesnt mean they want to stay in the EU

[Underscore]

Just because they voted him in doesnt mean they want to stay in the EU

Well if you were such a Eurosceptic you'd vote for Marine Le Pen wouldn't you?

Emmanuel Marcon is a neoliberal, he is literally the EU personified.

[Denver]

France want out because of the open door policy that has killed hundreds of their citizens and Belgium want the same because of the open doors policy

[Underscore]

But you could then argue any sane person would vote for Macron when up against a raging racist looney.

[Underscore]

France want out because of the open door policy that has killed hundreds of their citizens and Belgium want the same because of the open doors policy

Source again :conf:

[Denver]

Well if you were such a Eurosceptic you'd vote for Marine Le Pen wouldn't you?

Emmanuel Marcon is a neoliberal, he is literally the EU personified.

She was very bad for the country and they knew that,

The public can force Frexit

The UK did

[Underscore]

She was very bad for the country and they knew that,

The public can force Frexit

The UK did

David Cameron selfishly called the referendum because of divisions in his own party. We wouldn't be even thinking about Brexit if it wasn't for that.

And you're thinking French people want Brexit, there's no proof they do.

[Denver]

David Cameron selfishly called the referendum because of divisions in his own party. We wouldn't be even thinking about Brexit if it wasn't for that.

And you're thinking French people want Brexit, there's no proof they do.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/04/majority-of-french-voters-want-an-eu-referendum-citi.html

[Underscore]

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/04/majority-of-french-voters-want-an-eu-referendum-citi.html

Checkmate

"Fifty-four percent favor holding a referendum on EU membership. However, 72 percent are opposed to exiting the euro to return to the franc,"

[Denver]

You can keep the Euro without being a member

[Underscore]

You can keep the Euro without being a member

But if you wanted to leave the EU, I'd imagine you'd want to leave the Euro too. One of the main driving force behind the referendum was so that we didn't have to accept the Euro (even though we were NEVER forced and were a special member in that case)

[Denver]

But if you wanted to leave the EU, I'd imagine you'd want to leave the Euro too. One of the main driving force behind the referendum was so that we didn't have to accept the Euro (even though we were NEVER forced and were a special member in that case)

The public and the Queen would never agree to it

[Denver]

Why get rid of the strongest currency in the world?

[Underscore]

The public and the Queen would never agree to it

:conf:

That's not what I was getting to.

[Underscore]

Why get rid of the strongest currency in the world?

I never said get rid of it.

[Denver]

They can not force a country to use the Euro currently 7 countries in the EU dont use it and 4 out of it use it

[Underscore]

I was getting at that if you wanted to leave the EU you'd surely want to leave the Euro too.

But most people in France wanted to keep the Euro, so I'd imagine they'd want to stay in the EU too.

[Underscore]

They can not force a country to use the Euro currently 7 countries in the EU dont use it and 4 out of it use it

Yes I know,

but it's changed so if you're a new member you have to accept the Euro.

It's well spoken about if Scots leave the UK and join the EU they'd have to adopt the Euro.

[Denver]

You need a 2 year financial period 1st which is the reason Bulgaria dont use it and Scotland wont have a currency

[hijaxers]

If as many people still want to leave now as did a year ago then why would the result come out any different?

Or like Ireland we'll just keep voting til certain people get the vote they wanted

[Tom4784]

We were told back in 2016 there would be a referendum, not a second to ensure the remainers got the result they wanted. Maybe the leavers can demand a third democratic vote if they don't get the result they want.

It isn't democratic to overturn a public vote to get the vote you want. And that is what is happening here. It's you and some other remainers who only respect democracy when it goes their way. That has been demonstrated by the constant whinging from the remainers for the last year and constant demands to redo the vote.

Like Vicky said, before the result was revealed Leavers were already demanding another vote because they thought they lost.

Get this silly idea of 'overturning' the vote out of your head, if there was another referendum and the public democratically voted to remain then that's the democratic decision of the people, just like how it would be democracy if they voted to leave again. Honestly do you believe that, if people voted for a different party from the one currently in power during an election then they've undemocratically 'overturned' the previous election? No because that's silly, the people are always allowed to change their minds, that's the ****ing point of a referendum!

All votes are democratic whether you like them or not and NO vote has ever been final, we have left the EU before and have decided to rejoin afterwards remember. If referendums were as permanent as you make them out to be then the very act of voting to leave in the 2016 Referendum would have been considered undemocratic by your standards since we had our referendum on the issue in 1975 and chose to remain.

As for your last paragraph, have you not been reading the thread? Did you purposefully choose to ignore the two posts in which I've said I want a hard brexit at this point? Also, can you stop speaking of democracy until you actually understand what Democracy is? Because you sure as hell haven't displayed any understanding in this thread or any thread when you bring up the same argument in an attempt to silence anyone who has an opinion you don't like.

[Brillopad]

http://www.cityam.com/271679/juncker-wont-tell-you-real-state-eu-

Anyone Who trusts this man is easily fooled. I wouldn't trust him further than I could sling him.

[Withano]

"Ok Google, search the web for the European Union is very very bad"
*copies link, opens tibb, pastes link*

[Underscore]

"Ok Google, search the web for the European Union is very very bad"
*copies link, opens tibb, pastes link*

This.

But, welcome to off season on thisisbigbrother.com

[Brillopad]

This.

But, welcome to off season on thisisbigbrother.com

Thankfully we don't all believe the EU to be so very, very good! :pat:

[Tom4784]

The Referendum happened last year, Brillo.

[Toy Soldier]

You won't Believe What He Really Thinks!

[Oliver_W]

The EU is a mess, but the referendum has happened and the wheels are turning. A thread like this is no more constructive than one about its good points tbh.

[Brillopad]

The Referendum happened last year, Brillo.

Tell that to Corbyn!

[Oliver_W]

Tell that to Corbyn!

If Corbyn wants to sperg on about the EU, that's his prerogative, let him waste his breath is that's his idea of a high afternoon, he won't get anywhere.

[jaxie]

The EU is a mess but those who want to cling on seem to be blind to the issues and uninterested in the impact the EU has had and is having on our oceans and fishing, not to mention the lack of democracy, so it's kind of pointless trying to educate, they can't take the strain of having to use a passport for the duty frees.

[Brillopad]

The EU is a mess but those who want to cling on seem to be blind to the issues and uninterested in the impact the EU has had and is having on our oceans and fishing, not to mention the lack of democracy, so it's kind of pointless trying to educate, they can't take the strain of having to use a passport for the duty frees.

Exactly. The likes of Juncker etc have shown themselves to be no more trustworthy than most of our MPs. They are trying to put on a brave face to suggest that all is well and enforcing their powers, whilst Europe crumbles around them.

[jaxie]

Exactly. The likes of Juncker etc have shown themselves to be no more trustworthy than most of our MPs. They are trying to put on a brave face to suggest that all is well and enforcing their powers, whilst Europe crumbles around them.

I suspect a huge financial corruption scandal will happen at some point. I hope we are long gone when it does so we don't get dragged down with it.

[Brillopad]

I suspect a huge financial corruption scandal will happen at some point. I hope we are long gone when it does so we don't get dragged down with it.

I agree. I just don't get why people refuse to see the issues with the EU. No-one can be that blind - can they!

[Kizzy]

Exactly. The likes of Juncker etc have shown themselves to be no more trustworthy than most of our MPs. They are trying to put on a brave face to suggest that all is well and enforcing their powers, whilst Europe crumbles around them.

So you admit that our MPs are corrupt? Well that's a start.
If we keep our banking structure, rely on capitalism and austerity we are quite literally dead in the water.
In or out of the EU.

[DemolitionRed]

The EU has done a lot of good and we can't deny that. Its also done a lot of bad which we can now rid ourselves of. We need though, to look at the good policies and continue those policies within British law, whilst getting rid of the policies that suffocated us.

I'm delighted that we can now reform our fisheries and farming laws because EU common agricultural policies has robbed both farmers and fishermen of their trade. We need (and this is close to my heart) to stop the transportation of live animals for meat (and I didn't know this until I watched a parliamentary debate) we need to stop funding bullfighting in Spain, but we do need to continue the protection of our natural habitats. EU law has ensured we cleaned up our act with rivers and beaches from sewage. Before we joined the EU Blackpool beach wasn’t even listed as a beach or shown as a beach on maps because it was so filthy. The reason its an award winning beach today is because the EU made us take responsibility. Some regulations need to continue, not under the EU directive but under our own laws and regulations.

We need to take the good and discard the bad.

[Tom4784]

Tell that to Corbyn!

Okay, you've mentioned Corbyn for no apparent reason in a topic relating to EU, can we get a muslim mention for a full house?

[Brillopad]

Okay, you've mentioned Corbyn for no apparent reason in a topic relating to EU, can we get a muslim mention for a full house?

Seems I need to connect the dots for you - Corbyn has done a u-turn on Brexit which amounts to overturning the referendum result. See the connection.

:facepalm:

[jaxie]

The EU has done a lot of good and we can't deny that. Its also done a lot of bad which we can now rid ourselves of. We need though, to look at the good policies and continue those policies within British law, whilst getting rid of the policies that suffocated us.

I'm delighted that we can now reform our fisheries and farming laws because EU common agricultural policies has robbed both farmers and fishermen of their trade. We need (and this is close to my heart) to stop the transportation of live animals for meat (and I didn't know this until I watched a parliamentary debate) we need to stop funding bullfighting in Spain, but we do need to continue the protection of our natural habitats. EU law has ensured we cleaned up our act with rivers and beaches from sewage. Before we joined the EU Blackpool beach wasn’t even listed as a beach or shown as a beach on maps because it was so filthy. The reason its an award winning beach today is because the EU made us take responsibility. Some regulations need to continue, not under the EU directive but under our own laws and regulations.

We need to take the good and discard the bad.

Great post, how nice to agree for a change, it's been a while.

[Tom4784]

Seems I need to connect the dots for you - Corbyn has done a u-turn on Brexit which amounts to overturning the referendum result. See the connection.

:facepalm:

Okay sweetheart, you might need to sit down for this for what I'm about to tell you.

Jeremy Corbyn is not in power, Theresa May and the Tories are. Bleating on about Corbyn in order to bury your head in the sand over the mistakes you made in voting for the Tories won't change the fact that they're the ones running the show.

[Brillopad]

Okay sweetheart, you might need to sit down for this for what I'm about to tell you.

Jeremy Corbyn is not in power, Theresa May and the Tories are. Bleating on about Corbyn in order to bury your head in the sand over the mistakes you made in voting for the Tories won't change the fact that they're the ones running the show.

Resorting to sexist put downs again. Remind me how progressive you are! Real professional.

Being in power is not the issue, it is about intent and the lengths he will go to to try to get that power.

[Vicky.]

Merged these threads. I did warn about the multiple threads on same subject. Obviously if there is actual new news then a new thread is needed. A new thread is not needed for new opinion pieces or old news.

[jaxie]

You'll take the word of an economist if it's one of the few that is saying that Brexit is a shining star. If it's one of the DOZENS of economists who have stated how disastrous Brexit has been / will be, you're happy to ignore them and bleat that the "public has spoken!". Snooze.

How do you calculate your economists up? How do you know which are the dozens and which are the few? Can you name then, have you got a graph?

[jaxie]

I don't know why people keep trying to complain that the economy is in the toilet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34621440

[Kizzy]

I don't know why people keep trying to complain that the economy is in the toilet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34621440

27 October 2015

:joker: :joker:

[jaxie]

27 October 2015

:joker: :joker:

So fast on my misfire. Having a few problems with my tablet this morning and posted before I was finished. I was going to add that we are still growing after the recession and add:

https://ig.ft.com/sites/numbers/economies/uk

[Kizzy]

So fast on my misfire. Having a few problems with my tablet this morning and posted before I was finished. I was going to add that we are still growing after the recession and add:

https://ig.ft.com/sites/numbers/economies/uk

I don't see any positives there... what are you seeing?

[jaxie]

I don't see any positives there... what are you seeing?

Our country is in the top ten leading economies of the world, at five I believe, if you can't see any positives then there isn't much more I can say.

[Kizzy]

Our country is in the top ten leading economies of the world, at five I believe, if you can't see any positives then there isn't much more I can say.

In relation to the infographs you presented as proof... Are you saying because we are doing better than 3rd world and developing countries we are OK?
:/

[jaxie]

In relation to the infographs you presented as proof... Are you saying because we are doing better than 3rd world and developing countries we are OK?
:/

Our economy is comparable to Germany's are they a third world country?