Spanish police target Catalan government over referendum

[jaxie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41331152

I was surprised not to see any threads about what is happening in with Spain and Catalan so thought I'd enter this story from today.

I think the situation with Spain and Catalan shows a very different side to a smaller country wanting to be independent than our own story with Scotland and to me emphasises that we are quite civilised and progressive, even among neighbours in the west. Spain's attitude to Catalan seems pretty dictatorial. Reports like this one make me wonder how far Spain will go to prevent the referendum.

[Kizzy]

Yes it's easier to spot when governments are overtly corrupt, you would think that following the recent terrorist activity in Barcelona there would be a degree of unity from spain no 'Je suis Catalan' is there?.....very odd.

'Trampling democracy?

Reports have been coming out of Catalonia that the Spanish government has:

Threatened 700 Catalan Mayors with arrest if they agree to hold the referendum in their jurisdictions.
Ordered armed military police to raid print works, in an attempt to destroying voting materials. The police seized over 1.3 million pieces of campaign literature.
Shut down the official independence referendum website.
Warned Catalonia it will take control of its finances if the referendum isn’t stopped.
Also threatened newspaper and TV editors with court action, if they publish or broadcast material relating to the referendum.
As Al Jazeera reported, the Catalan President, Carles Puigdemont, has said of the referendum:

We have the full force of the state against us… Faced with judicial proceedings and threats… the regional government is more determined than ever…
But Spain’s Conservative Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, said laws passed by the regional government connected to the referendum were “illegal and anti-democratic”, adding:

There will not be a referendum… It’s my duty to preserve national unity…'

https://www.thecanary.co/global/2017/09/17/nicola-sturgeons-government-just-waded-democratic-crisis-spain-theresa-may-silent/

[jaxie]

The EU is also silent and this is more their business than May's. The UK has already set examples that we don't treat our devolved partners in the way Spain is behaving towards Catalonia. That speaks far more loudly than words from May.

[Tom4784]

I hope the referendum goes ahead as planned, the lengths the Spanish government are going to prevent it are shocking.

[Denver]

Shame as Spain is a lovely country to visit

[Cherie]

Yes it's easier to spot when governments are overtly corrupt, you would think that following the recent terrorist activity in Barcelona there would be a degree of unity from spain no 'Je suis Catalan' is there?.....very odd.

'Trampling democracy?

Reports have been coming out of Catalonia that the Spanish government has:

Threatened 700 Catalan Mayors with arrest if they agree to hold the referendum in their jurisdictions.
Ordered armed military police to raid print works, in an attempt to destroying voting materials. The police seized over 1.3 million pieces of campaign literature.
Shut down the official independence referendum website.
Warned Catalonia it will take control of its finances if the referendum isn’t stopped.
Also threatened newspaper and TV editors with court action, if they publish or broadcast material relating to the referendum.
As Al Jazeera reported, the Catalan President, Carles Puigdemont, has said of the referendum:

We have the full force of the state against us… Faced with judicial proceedings and threats… the regional government is more determined than ever…
But Spain’s Conservative Prime Minister, Mariano Rajoy, said laws passed by the regional government connected to the referendum were “illegal and anti-democratic”, adding:

There will not be a referendum… It’s my duty to preserve national unity…'

https://www.thecanary.co/global/2017/09/17/nicola-sturgeons-government-just-waded-democratic-crisis-spain-theresa-may-silent/

They did actually as I saw symbols in Andalucia when I was there in support of Barcelona

[Kizzy]

They did actually as I saw symbols in Andalucia when I was there in support of Barcelona

Not from the Spanish govt Cherie....If you read the sentence in context it should be obvious I wasn't talking about the Spanish people.

[Toy Soldier]

To be fair, from what I know of Spanish politics, it's not really directly comparable to the situation in the UK. I believe Spain is made up of several smaller regions like Catalonia and many of them have independence movements, albeit with less support than there is in Catalonia, but still, there are many small regions and so the overarching Spanish govt. is terrified of a precedent being set.

If Scotland left the UK, the rUK would still be a comparably large country with 60 million people. Even England alone is over 50m if the UK split entirely. Spain, on the other hand, if every part that aspires towards independence got independence, would be fragmented into several smaller parts and there would be no real "greater Spain" at all.

Not that I personally think this is a bad thing. My overall opinion is that smaller states with more localised government - working in cooperation with each other - work best for most people's comfort and prosperity. Larger countries with huge centralised governments work for the elite. Hence many powerful people being afraid of the trend.

[Nicky91]

the political rain in spain :hehe:

[Underscore]

Just.
let.
them.
have.
the.
****ing.
referendum.

[Kizzy]

One question... On this issue, where is the news?



https://www.thecanary.co/global/2017/09/22/amid-eu-silence-scotland-wales-join-condemnation-chilling-attack-democracy/

[Northern Monkey]

I definitely think they should be allowed a legal and fair independence referendum.One problem though according to one fella on the BBC was that ballot boxes were apparently being run by “separatists” who were letting people vote multiple times.He said this referendum was a sham.

[Vicky.]

The EU is also silent and this is more their business than May's. The UK has already set examples that we don't treat our devolved partners in the way Spain is behaving towards Catalonia. That speaks far more loudly than words from May.

Well yes, quite. Its nothing at all to do with May tbh, so not sure why she appears to be being criticized for staying out of it. Whilst the canary is a change from the usual right wing bias we see from most...at times its fairly silly in its reporting as seemingly everything is May/the Tories fault in some way, and if its not their actual fault, then they are criticized for something in connection to each story :laugh:

I do think its something that Spain need to sort out themselves, without noses being poked in by everyone else

I actually know nothing at all about this whole thing, this is the first I have heard about it. Will read up.

[Tom4784]

Canary is as bad as Breitbart, no news source that is skewed too far in one direction can ever be reliable.

[jaxie]

http://news.sky.com/story/amp/illegal-referendum-gets-under-way-in-catalonia-amid-fears-of-violence-11062371

Quite shocking watching it unfold from the sidelines. Spain seems to be acting very dictatorial and you get the feeling it could get nasty with all the armed police involved.

[VanessaFeltz.]

thats disgusting

[Kizzy]

Canary is as bad as Breitbart, no news source that is skewed too far in one direction can ever be reliable.

The political affiliation is irrelevant when you use as a gauge the truthfulness of the reportage... Basically if what they say is correct then what does it matter which way they lean?

When the 'mainstream' media in the UK is the mail, BBC, times and telegraph is it so surprising that there is an alternative? Daring to highlight the anti democratic action of the Spanish govt when nobody else would... sorry Dezzy but you would never see that in breitbart, that comparison couldn't be more wrong as they are effectively polar opposites.

[MTVN]

It's a pointless exercise now because no one who opposes independence (still most Catalans) is going to defy the central government and the police to say so. So there will be a result of something like 98% in favour from the few who managed to vote and it will be proclaimed as a strong show of support but will in reality mean nothing

[Tom4784]

The political affiliation is irrelevant when you use as a gauge the truthfulness of the reportage... Basically if what they say is correct then what does it matter which way they lean?

When the 'mainstream' media in the UK is the mail, BBC, times and telegraph is it so surprising that there is an alternative? Daring to highlight the anti democratic action of the Spanish govt when nobody else would... sorry Dezzy but you would never see that in breitbart, that comparison couldn't be more wrong as they are effectively polar opposites.

Confirmation Bias exists on both websites because they are both extreme in their political leanings, you can't get unbiased reporting from a website that leans far too much in one direction.

You can't condemn something like Breitbart but then be accepting of what is essentially it's Left Wing mirror in the Canary. I refuse to pay attention to either since agenda comes before news for both of them.

[Kizzy]

Confirmation Bias exists on both websites because they are both extreme in their political leanings, you can't get unbiased reporting from a website that leans far too much in one direction.

You can't condemn something like Breitbart but then be accepting of what is essentially it's Left Wing mirror in the Canary. I refuse to pay attention to either since agenda comes before news for both of them.

There is bias in all media the accusation that the canary is a mirror of breitbart is unwarranted in that as I said earlier there is nothing that has been stated in the canary that can be debunked, the facts are there as stated by reputable pollsters and statisticians. Whatever leaning the site has that remains the factual basis underpinning whatever the given issue is.

[Alf]

There is bias in all media the accusation that the canary is a mirror of breitbart is unwarranted in that as I said earlier there is nothing that has been stated in the canary that can be debunked, the facts are there as stated by reputable pollsters and statisticians. Whatever leaning the site has that remains the factual basis underpinning whatever the given issue is.You should read them all and then you can make your own opinion. You should particularly read the ones you don't like, then you can get the information to give reasons why they are wrong.

I don't believe you read Breitbart (I could be wrong, but don't think so) but you always have an opinion on it.

[Kizzy]

You should read them all and then you can make your own opinion. You should particularly read the ones you don't like, then you can get the information to give reasons why they are wrong.

I don't believe you read Breitbart (I could be wrong, but don't think so) but you always have an opinion on it.

How on earth did this thread morph into yet another right V left wing volley? And why yet again are my politics hauled under a microscope?...

How about we stick to the topic in discussion which is the escalating violence in Catalonia, the UK media can no longer ignore it seemingly.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/panish-police-hurling-voters-down-stairs-and-snatching-ballot-boxes-a7976721.html

[Tom4784]

There is bias in all media the accusation that the canary is a mirror of breitbart is unwarranted in that as I said earlier there is nothing that has been stated in the canary that can be debunked, the facts are there as stated by reputable pollsters and statisticians. Whatever leaning the site has that remains the factual basis underpinning whatever the given issue is.

Just like Breitbart, Canary will cherry pick stories and stats to suit it's political stance. Both are terrible websites that shouldn't be trusted.

[Greg!]

They're literally dragging people out of polling stations and chucking them onto the street. Disgusting :(

[Kizzy]

Just like Breitbart, Canary will cherry pick stories and stats to suit it's political stance. Both are terrible websites that shouldn't be trusted.

I'm not sure what you mean here, the canary has on it's UK page up to date relevant reports on a wide range of topics including politics, the NHS, homelessness and issues relating to the DWP... I fail to see why you find that so distasteful seeing as social justice is a topic usually of relative importance to you.

Never mind, if you don't find the site useful then you are welcome to that view

[bots]

its not a legal referendum, so it should not be held, its that simple. Scotland can't hold a referendum without the approval of the UK government, and if they held one without permission, it would be deemed illegal too.

It may seem like an overreaction by the Spanish government, but they are effectively snuffing out an illegal peasant revolt. Perfectly acceptable for them to take action to prevent the illegal activity.

[Tom4784]

I'm not sure what you mean here, the canary has on it's UK page up to date relevant reports on a wide range of topics including politics, the NHS, homelessness and issues relating to the DWP... I fail to see why you find that so distasteful seeing as social justice is a topic usually of relative importance to you.

Never mind, if you don't find the site useful then you are welcome to that view

Look at the article you linked. Hell, just look at the headline.

'Nicola Sturgeon’s government just waded into a democratic crisis in Spain, while Theresa May is silent'

The story is about how Nicola Sturgeon's administration has commented on the Catalonia situation but the Canary's taken the focus from that in what should have been a report on Scotland's stance to turn it into a commentary on Theresa May. They are passing off their agenda as news and that's why, like Breitbart, The Canary is utter trash.

I care about Social Justice, which is why I'm opposed to The Canary as much as Breitbart because, while the latter tries to discount it, the former undermines it.

[Kizzy]

Look at the article you linked. Hell, just look at the headline.

'Nicola Sturgeon’s government just waded into a democratic crisis in Spain, while Theresa May is silent'

The story is about how Nicola Sturgeon's administration has commented on the Catalonia situation but the Canary's taken the focus from that in what should have been a report on Scotland's stance to turn it into a commentary on Theresa May. They are passing off their agenda as news and that's why, like Breitbart, The Canary is utter trash.

I care about Social Justice, which is why I'm opposed to The Canary as much as Breitbart because, while the latter tries to discount it, the former undermines it.

Why ignore facts? The fact is other leaders of political parties Scottish, Welsh and Danish MPs are noted as condemning the action..and may isn't. That isn't undermining anything it's highlighting the complacency shown by the current govt to the attack on democracy and civil liberty.

Personally I appreciate the honesty, we should be condemning the heavy handed tactics, but guess what? We aren't.

[Greg!]

They've voted yes to independence :love:

Over 2million (90%) voted yes. The turnout was 42% but it doesn't include 700,000 ballot papers that were taken by the police.

[Toy Soldier]

They've voted yes to independence :love:

Over 2million (90%) voted yes. The turnout was 42% but it doesn't include 700,000 ballot papers that were taken by the police.It doesn't really matter though, it was already known that there's an 80 to 90% support for independence from various stats and polls, the referendum was just to get a more official declaration of that figure. Spain won't let them take independence... That's confirmed more than ever with their response in the last few days.

[MTVN]

It doesn't really matter though, it was already known that there's an 80 to 90% support for independence from various stats and polls, the referendum was just to get a more official declaration of that figure. Spain won't let them take independence... That's confirmed more than ever with their response in the last few days.

Since when? This was the most recent polling

Support for Catalan independence has dropped just months before a planned referendum on breaking away from Spain, a new survey suggests.

The Centre for Opinion Studies, the polling organization of the regional government, released new figures showing the percentage of people supporting a Catalan independent state dropped to 41.1 percent in June from 44.3 percent in March.

The number of people who oppose a split from Spain rose slightly to 49.4 percent from 48.5 percent in March.

http://www.politico.eu/article/catalonia-independence-spain-support-for-drops-poll/

It's not surprising that 90% voted in favour in a referendum that was called for, organised by and attended by those who support independence while those who oppose independence disagreed with there being a referendum in the first place

[Toy Soldier]

Since when? This was the most recent polling



It's not surprising that 90% voted in favour in a referendum that was called for, organised by and attended by those who support independence while those who oppose independence disagreed with there being a referendum in the first placePossibly, I agree that independence voters would be much more likely to turn up to vote, given the official stance that the vote was illegitimate and to be disregarded anyway... And the same may be true of earlier polls and studies.

Then again, one has to wonder why the Spanish government have had such a disproportionate and violent response if they actually believed that the vote would go their way? The sensible option would have been to let the vote go through and use it to point out that support for unity is high. Seems like they weren't confident in the result and - honestly - given the heavy handed response and police brutality that has gone on over the last few days from police forces drafted in from other regions - I would be very surprised if support for independence hasn't increased.

Surely no unionist citizen of Catalonia is sitting watching their friends, coworkers and neighbours being fly-kicked and bashed with batons by armoured Spanish police and thinking "Yeah, this is fine, probably deserve it".

Though actually nothing would surprise me these days. If it was the UK people would find a way to justify it. Brand the voters "thugs" or "rioters" or something... The usual script.

[MTVN]

Possibly, I agree that independence voters would be much more likely to turn up to vote, given the official stance that the vote was illegitimate and to be disregarded anyway... And the same may be true of earlier polls and studies.

Then again, one has to wonder why the Spanish government have had such a disproportionate and violent response if they actually believed that the vote would go their way? The sensible option would have been to let the vote go through and use it to point out that support for unity is high. Seems like they weren't confident in the result and - honestly - given the heavy handed response and police brutality that has gone on over the last few days from police forces drafted in from other regions - I would be very surprised if support for independence hasn't increased.

Surely no unionist citizen of Catalonia is sitting watching their friends, coworkers and neighbours being fly-kicked and bashed with batons by armoured Spanish police and thinking "Yeah, this is fine, probably deserve it".

Though actually nothing would surprise me these days. If it was the UK people would find a way to justify it. Brand the voters "thugs" or "rioters" or something... The usual script.

Maybe not but I also doubt its enough to convert them to independence overnight. Most probably see fault on both sides - the Spanish government for a heavy handed response and the Catalan government for being so obsessed with secession that they insisted on this vote when they knew that it would be declared illegal and that this would be the outcome. The fact it looks like they are planning to use this result to declare independence should seriously worry everyone in Spain that they are going to end up like Ukraine.

[Kizzy]

Maybe not but I also doubt its enough to convert them to independence overnight. Most probably see fault on both sides - the Spanish government for a heavy handed response and the Catalan government for being so obsessed with secession that they insisted on this vote when they knew that it would be declared illegal and that this would be the outcome. The fact it looks like they are planning to use this result to declare independence should seriously worry everyone in Spain that they are going to end up like Ukraine.

No, no they won't. Ask yourself why if the vote was illegal and won't stand as a verified referendum then why the very expensive militia involvement that has ruined Spains reputation forever as seen via the media worldwide?

Why not just let them vote? ...

Catalonia will only end up like the Ukraine if Spain continue acting like Russia.

[Beso]

The way i see it is the catalonians who wanted independence turned up to vote for independence.

The people of catalonia who dont want independence (not far off 50% of the population btw) seen it as the waste of time that it was and had thier siesta.

The po po should have done the same and let the idiots get on with a pointless ballot.


Jeremy will be up in the spanish hills in his plus fours, rifle in hand patting the backs of the rebel catalonian resistence within 5 years.

[Beso]

But yesterday they spoke...and it seems to be working for now.

[jaxie]

But yesterday they spoke...and it seems to be working for now.

Unless yesterday was 'staged' by Spain to make themselves look better after their brutality. :shrug:

For all we know most of those people could have been Spanish and not Catalans at all.

[Beso]

Unless yesterday was 'staged' by Spain to make themselves look better after their brutality. :shrug:

For all we know most of those people could have been Spanish and not Catalans at all.

And the protestors from last weekend might have been turkish...:shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

If the police hadn't been so brutal, nobody would be talking much about this.