Laboratory Meat

[jaxie]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/04/livestock-farming-artificial-meat-industry-animals

This was an interesting article. Lab grown meat makes me think of Star Trek replicators. Do you see a future without livestock farming? Could you take to eating lab grown meat?

[Niamh.]

If it tasted ok and had everything you need then surely its better than what we do to animals now

[smudgie]

Hell no.
Rather go vegetarian than lab grown anything.

[Vicky.]

If it tasted the same, I would eat it tbh :laugh: I don't particularly carer where my food comes from or anything as long as its nice

[Jack_]

I only have two rules when it comes to food tbh, a) it tastes nice and b) it's not dangerous to me, so if lab meat fulfilled these two I'd have no problem

It's why I never really *got* the horse meat scandal a few years back. Like, obviously lying to consumers is completely reprehensible but much of the outrage was about 'ew! I don't want to eat horses!' and I just thought :shrug: I couldn't care less what it is if it tastes nice. I find the whole monopoly of dignity people put on their home nation's domesticated animals a bit strange really, why is the life of a dog more important than a pig just because it could be a pet?

[Niamh.]

I only have two rules when it comes to food tbh, a) it tastes nice and b) it's not dangerous to me, so if lab meat fulfilled these two I'd have no problem

It's why I never really *got* the horse meat scandal a few years back. Like, obviously lying to consumers is completely reprehensible but much of the outrage was about 'ew! I don't want to eat horses!' and I just thought :shrug: I couldn't care less what it is if it tastes nice. I find the whole monopoly of dignity people put on their home nation's domesticated animals a bit strange really, why is the life of a dog more important than a pig just because it could be a pet?

Yeah, I mean I prefer dogs and cats to pigs or cows but it seems a bit hypocritical to eat some animals but get all on the moral high ground about cultures who eat different animals

[Toy Soldier]

If it smells, tastes and has the texture of bacon then I'm all for it.

...if not then tbh I'm still gonna eat piggies :worry:.

[jaxie]

I'd definitely eat it if there were no health concerns and it tasted the same though you do wonder what would suddenly happen to all the herds. Can you imagine a world where cows are extinct?

[Niamh.]

I'd definitely eat it if there were no health concerns and it tasted the same though you do wonder what would suddenly happen to all the herds. Can you imagine a world where cows are extinct?

Yeah that's a point, I suppose they'd still keep sheep for wool :think: having cows go extinct is surely better than breeding them for death though

[Toy Soldier]

Yeah that's a point, I suppose they'd still keep sheep for wool :think: having cows go extinct is surely better than breeding them for death though

The bigger problem though isn't that you'd have to stop breeding more... if this all came about quite suddenly, rather than a gradual reduction in herd sizes / the number of farms, you'd have to actually cull the herds that are already alive. Keeping livestock is expensive, the expense is covered by them being sold for animal produce. If all of a sudden it's impossible to make any money (and therefore, impossible to support them) then you basically have to either deliberately kill them, or let them freeze / starve over winter.

[Niamh.]

The bigger problem though isn't that you'd have to stop breeding more... if this all came about quite suddenly, rather than a gradual reduction in herd sizes / the number of farms, you'd have to actually cull the herds that are already alive. Keeping livestock is expensive, the expense is covered by them being sold for animal produce. If all of a sudden it's impossible to make any money (and therefore, impossible to support them) then you basically have to either deliberately kill them, or let them freeze / starve over winter.

I'd imagine it would be a gradual thing anyway wouldn't it? That people could chose to eat real meat or lab meat and then start to phase it out altogether? Also, I mean is it that horrific to kill off a herd of cows when that's what happens to them all anyway when they're used for meat?

[Northern Monkey]

This could end vegetarianism which can only be a good thing

[Northern Monkey]

I'd definitely eat it if there were no health concerns and it tasted the same though you do wonder what would suddenly happen to all the herds. Can you imagine a world where cows are extinct?

There would be a hell of alot less greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere.Great for the environment

[Vicky.]

This could end vegetarianism which can only be a good thing

Well yes, some vegetarians are healthy and know how to replace what they lose from meat, but a lot aren't. Theres a kid at my daughters school with vegan parents who have forced their beliefs onto their child and my god, she looks like a walking skeleton, grey tinge to her skin too...clearly not healthy. My daughter says she cries at school when others get stuff likle roast beef dinners, chicken burgers and stuff as she really wants it, poor kid.

(Apparently my daughter gave this kid her beef at one stage, as my daughter doesn't like beef anyway and the kid apparently loved it. Expecting hell on from the parents at some stage, but the teachers obviously did not see, or didn't tell them...so its only if the kid slips up and says something :laugh: )

[Niamh.]

There would be a hell of alot less greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere.Great for the environment

yeah was thinking that too :laugh:

[Niamh.]

Well yes, some vegetarians are healthy and know how to replace what they lose from meat, but a lot aren't. Theres a kid at my daughters school with vegan parents who have forced their beliefs onto their child and my god, she looks like a walking skeleton, grey tinge to her skin too...clearly not healthy. My daughter says she cries at school when others get stuff likle roast beef dinners, chicken burgers and stuff as she really wants it, poor kid.

(Apparently my daughter gave this kid her beef at one stage, as my daughter doesn't like beef anyway and the kid apparently loved it. Expecting hell on from the parents at some stage, but the teachers obviously did not see, or didn't tell them...so its only if the kid slips up and says something :laugh: )

Your daughter is only a baby herself, they can't blame her if they find out, I'm assuming she didn't force it down that girls throat ....... :laugh:

[Northern Monkey]

Also ending vegetarianism would be good for the environment.All those noxious cabbage farts must be burning holes in the ozone layer.

[Vicky.]

You're daughter is only a baby herself, they can't blame her if they find out, I'm assuming she didn't force it down that girls throat ....... :laugh:

No I doubt it :laugh: Apparently this girl is always hanging round the kids on school dinners as she gets sent in with a lunchbox with nuts and stuff in. I find it really awful to do that to a kid if they are wanting meat tbh. Fair enough have your own beliefs and that, but kids...well IMO they do need meat and if they WANT meat its wrong to withhold it too.

I mean, all of this has came from a nearly 5 year old so I am not sure how much is true, but it sounds about right and she seems to be telling the truth about the slices of beef. I know the parents are militant vegans as they have a go at parents sometimes for random **** to do with eating meat. Never had a go at me yet, which I am looking forward to. Sometimes I do feel like rocking up at the school gate eating a chicken leg

[Northern Monkey]

Well yes, some vegetarians are healthy and know how to replace what they lose from meat, but a lot aren't. Theres a kid at my daughters school with vegan parents who have forced their beliefs onto their child and my god, she looks like a walking skeleton, grey tinge to her skin too...clearly not healthy. My daughter says she cries at school when others get stuff likle roast beef dinners, chicken burgers and stuff as she really wants it, poor kid.

(Apparently my daughter gave this kid her beef at one stage, as my daughter doesn't like beef anyway and the kid apparently loved it. Expecting hell on from the parents at some stage, but the teachers obviously did not see, or didn't tell them...so its only if the kid slips up and says something :laugh: )

Yeah I don’t think forcing veganism on kids is fair.Kids need protein.Veggy is ok as they can get it from cheese and eggs but veganism is like giving your kids an eating disorder from birth.If you don’t use supplements alongside a vegan diet you end up with all kinds of deficiencies down the line.
Also vegan diets can have the opposite effect and make people fatter.They eat a hell of alot of carbs which are the worst thing.Infact i’ve even seen a vegan slogan saying “carb up”.Irresponsible ****.

[Oliver_W]

I'd say let the markets decide - it should be available to buy alongside real meat. If people stop buying real meat in favour of the synthetic variety, then the meat industry will die out. Same with vice-versa.

If farms lose their purpose, the land should be protected, either turn the livestock paddocks into crop land, or just otherwise keep it green. It's better environmentally, and green looks better than housing blocks.

[Saph]

'lab grown' sounds a bit chemically

[smudgie]

Hmmmm, no more leather handbags, shoes or sofas.:fist:
Just no, plus we need cows for milk as well, imagine all those farmers going out of business.

[Niamh.]

Hmmmm, no more leather handbags, shoes or sofas.:fist:
Just no, plus we need cows for milk as well, imagine all those farmers going out of business.

They could have almond farms for milk or something instead :think: I mean i eat meat and all but when you really think about it, it is horrific what we do to them

[Oliver_W]

I mean i eat milk and all but when you really think about it, it is horrific what we do to them

How'd you manage that?

[DemolitionRed]

I only have two rules when it comes to food tbh, a) it tastes nice and b) it's not dangerous to me, so if lab meat fulfilled these two I'd have no problem

It's why I never really *got* the horse meat scandal a few years back. Like, obviously lying to consumers is completely reprehensible but much of the outrage was about 'ew! I don't want to eat horses!' and I just thought :shrug: I couldn't care less what it is if it tastes nice. I find the whole monopoly of dignity people put on their home nation's domesticated animals a bit strange really, why is the life of a dog more important than a pig just because it could be a pet?

I'm like you. The only thing I question is the animal husbandry before slaughter and the method of slaughter. Unfortunately, a lot of horses get exported on the hoof to countries who don't have the same slaughtering rules we have.

I was vegetarian for quite a long time and I still have this little voice in my head that says, "meat is murder" but then I smell smokey bacon :hehe:

[DemolitionRed]

They already make something that resembles synthetic bacon.

[waterhog]

science and food should not mix - bit like all the GM food stuff.

no no no

[Oliver_W]

They already make something that resembles synthetic bacon.

That stuff made from turkeys?

[y.winter]

Well yes, some vegetarians are healthy and know how to replace what they lose from meat, but a lot aren't. Theres a kid at my daughters school with vegan parents who have forced their beliefs onto their child and my god, she looks like a walking skeleton, grey tinge to her skin too...clearly not healthy. My daughter says she cries at school when others get stuff likle roast beef dinners, chicken burgers and stuff as she really wants it, poor kid.

(Apparently my daughter gave this kid her beef at one stage, as my daughter doesn't like beef anyway and the kid apparently loved it. Expecting hell on from the parents at some stage, but the teachers obviously did not see, or didn't tell them...so its only if the kid slips up and says something :laugh: )

Well, the problem is with the parents, not with veganism. There are children to meat eaters that are badly nourished as well, yet no one blames it on their meat eating habit. I guess you wouldn't go and blame so quickly parents who let their kids go to mcdonalds every other day... The hospitals are full of heart-disease patients who eat meat, and yet it will still take only a single vegan to join them to throw that "UGH those unhealthy vegans!". It's populism at its best.
Also, that "forced their beliefs" is as valid as saying that meat eaters parents force their animal-abuse based eating habits on their "poor" naive children that don't know that they eat corpses of tortured animals (and I didn't even start talking about its health prospect).
Veganism is a wonderful and healthy diet for all ages (ask W.H.O) and when you're doing it right (like other diets, there's no exception, and a lot of non-vegans fail at it miserably) - there's nothing to question about it. No protein deficiencies, no iron deficiencies, well balanced level of cholesterol, great blood test results over and over again, non-compromising taste and quality of food - this is my personal experience for years and years (and others too).
People love to blindly bash veganism, but reality has more to offer other than superficial notions.
Who's afraid of veggies?

[DemolitionRed]

That stuff made from turkeys?

No, its made specifically for vegetarians. I'm always puzzled why some food manufacturers think vegetarians would want to eat something that looked like meat :conf:

[DemolitionRed]

Well, the problem is with the parents, not with veganism. There are children to meat eaters that are badly nourished as well, yet no one blames it on their meat eating habit. I guess you wouldn't go and blame so quickly parents who let their kids go to mcdonalds every other day... The hospitals are full of heart-disease patients who eat meat, and yet it will still take only a single vegan to join them to throw that "UGH those unhealthy vegans!". It's populism at its best.
Also, that "forced their beliefs" is as valid as saying that meat eaters parents force their animal-abuse based eating habits on their "poor" naive children that don't know that they eat corpses of tortured animals (and I didn't even start talking about its health prospect).
Veganism is a wonderful and healthy diet for all ages (ask W.H.O) and when you're doing it right (like other diets, there's no exception, and a lot of non-vegans fail at it miserably) - there's nothing to question about it. No protein deficiencies, no iron deficiencies, well balanced level of cholesterol, great blood test results over and over again, non-compromising taste and quality of food - this is my personal experience for years and years (and others too).
People love to blindly bash veganism, but reality has more to offer other than superficial notions.
Who's afraid of veggies?

An American friend of mine was having a party once when she noticed her small finger was swollen and painful. By the next day every finger, on one hand, looked like a sausage. Tests confirmed she had early onset rheumatoid arthritis and she was offered steroid injections (something she would have to have for the rest of her life). Fortunately for her, she comes from a wealthy family. She flew out to see a specialist in California and it was strongly suggested she went onto a vegan diet immediately. She gave it a try. Within weeks the swelling and pain subsided. Fifteen years later she's still a strict vegan who has never had another flare-up of rheumatoid arthritis.

For people who suffer inflammatory diseases of the joints, a vegetarian diet is good and a vegan diet is excellent.

[Vicky.]

Well, the problem is with the parents, not with veganism. There are children to meat eaters that are badly nourished as well, yet no one blames it on their meat eating habit. I guess you wouldn't go and blame so quickly parents who let their kids go to mcdonalds every other day... The hospitals are full of heart-disease patients who eat meat, and yet it will still take only a single vegan to join them to throw that "UGH those unhealthy vegans!". It's populism at its best.
Also, that "forced their beliefs" is as valid as saying that meat eaters parents force their animal-abuse based eating habits on their "poor" naive children that don't know that they eat corpses of tortured animals (and I didn't even start talking about its health prospect).
Veganism is a wonderful and healthy diet for all ages (ask W.H.O) and when you're doing it right (like other diets, there's no exception, and a lot of non-vegans fail at it miserably) - there's nothing to question about it. No protein deficiencies, no iron deficiencies, well balanced level of cholesterol, great blood test results over and over again, non-compromising taste and quality of food - this is my personal experience for years and years (and others too).
People love to blindly bash veganism, but reality has more to offer other than superficial notions.
Who's afraid of veggies?

Afraid of veggies? :suspect:

I would absolutely b e judging parents who gave their kids mcdonalds everyday tbh. But its the mcdonalds that would be the issue, not the meat itself

I have a fairly bad view about vegans mainly as every one I know...once they went vegan became unhealthy as they clearly did not manage their diet properly. Yes it can be done, but it seems most do not do it. A fair amount of veggies I know are the same too...but vegetarians seem to do so much better than vegans. Yes not all vegans and so on, but when 100% of the people you know who went vegan ended up looking severely ill and with multiple health problems...well it kind of darkens your view on it tbh and I still think it should be down to the kids choice if they wish to eat meat or not. I see it as not dissimilar to my daughter refusing to eat beef. So we don't give her beef, forcing her to eat it would be wrong. Equally if she wanted to try something, we would let her try it :shrug:

So basically, personal view, grand. Forcing it on others, not. Most vegans, not healthy. Some veggies are. But either way, should be the kids choice and I find it just cruel to keep denying the child something they clearly want and could benefit from

I even know someone who forced vegetarianism on their cat ffs. Forced being the operative word, as the poor miserable thing is now dead..which I am sure its happy for.

[Brillopad]

I only have two rules when it comes to food tbh, a) it tastes nice and b) it's not dangerous to me, so if lab meat fulfilled these two I'd have no problem

It's why I never really *got* the horse meat scandal a few years back. Like, obviously lying to consumers is completely reprehensible but much of the outrage was about 'ew! I don't want to eat horses!' and I just thought :shrug: I couldn't care less what it is if it tastes nice. I find the whole monopoly of dignity people put on their home nation's domesticated animals a bit strange really, why is the life of a dog more important than a pig just because it could be a pet?

Eating any animals is undesirable and something we should seek to change but please don’t suggest to start eating cats, dogs and horses is therefore acceptable - it clearly isn’t. Something a bit suss about about anyone that would suggest that in my opinion.

[y.winter]

Afraid of veggies? :suspect:

I would absolutely b e judging parents who gave their kids mcdonalds everyday tbh. But its the mcdonalds that would be the issue, not the meat itself

I have a fairly bad view about vegans mainly as every one I know...once they went vegan became unhealthy as they clearly did not manage their diet properly. Yes it can be done, but it seems most do not do it. A fair amount of veggies I know are the same too...but vegetarians seem to do so much better than vegans. Yes not all vegans and so on, but when 100% of the people you know who went vegan ended up looking severely ill and with multiple health problems...well it kind of darkens your view on it tbh and I still think it should be down to the kids choice if they wish to eat meat or not. I see it as not dissimilar to my daughter refusing to eat beef. So we don't give her beef, forcing her to eat it would be wrong. Equally if she wanted to try something, we would let her try it :shrug:

So basically, personal view, grand. Forcing it on others, not. Most vegans, not healthy. Some veggies are. But either way, should be the kids choice and I find it just cruel to keep denying the child something they clearly want and could benefit from

I even know someone who forced vegetarianism on their cat ffs. Forced being the operative word, as the poor miserable thing is now dead..which I am sure its happy for.Going to the gym and lifting some weights doesn't mean you're helping your body, you could quite easily harm yourself - it's all about doing it right. Same goes with diet and nutrition.
For me, it comes to show how badly educated people are when it comes to plant based food. When fruits and vegetables almost go under the same group in the (allegedly) food pyramid they teach you in school, when in reality it has so much layers and they differ from each other in so many aspects. When I'm getting asked "of you're vegan? So what do you have to eat?" I love to joke and answer "lettuce", because I find it funny that once you take dairy products and meat from the equation, people don't know where to begin with - and it's ridiculous, because there's so much to begin with and the variety is enormous without even touching the fake meat and like-milk category. Just replacing your meat meals with veggie burgers and other supermarket-bought frozen vegan meals and your yogurt with soy based one -doesn't mean you're doing it right. But people think they are, when it's actually mostly junk food with zero nutritional values.
In regards to the child thing - eating animals is not more of a default diet than a vegan diet is, it's rather your own personal opinion/social convention (not necessarily a right one). There's nothing unbalanced and non beneficial in vegan diet (in fact it has more than many other diets). People don't know how to deal with it because of bad/lack of education - this is where it falls.
And as for the cat lady - yeah, I have come across a lot of weird people, vegans and non vegans, so the way I see it, it's nothing but ad hominem.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think we should all try and move to a vegetarian diet in the future. One day we will look at animal slaughter and eating like we look at the ancients and their habits - with horror

[Nicky91]

I think we should all try and move to a vegetarian diet in the future. One day we will look at animal slaughter and eating like we look at the ancients and their habits - with horror

i 110% agree with this :clap2:

[Vicky.]

Going to the gym and lifting some weights doesn't mean you're helping your body, you could quite easily harm yourself - it's all about doing it right. Same goes with diet and nutrition.
For me, it comes to show how badly educated people are when it comes to plant based food. When fruits and vegetables almost go under the same group in the (allegedly) food pyramid they teach you in school, when in reality it has so much layers and they differ from each other in so many aspects. When I'm getting asked "of you're vegan? So what do you have to eat?" I love to joke and answer "lettuce", because I find it funny that once you take dairy products and meat from the equation, people don't know where to begin with - and it's ridiculous, because there's so much to begin with and the variety is enormous without even touching the fake meat and like-milk category. Just replacing your meat meals with veggie burgers and other supermarket-bought frozen vegan meals and your yogurt with soy based one -doesn't mean you're doing it right. But people think they are, when it's actually mostly junk food with zero nutritional values.
In regards to the child thing - eating animals is not more of a default diet than a vegan diet is, it's rather your own personal opinion/social convention (not necessarily a right one). There's nothing unbalanced and non beneficial in vegan diet (in fact it has more than many other diets). People don't know how to deal with it because of bad/lack of education - this is where it falls.
And as for the cat lady - yeah, I have come across a lot of weird people, vegans and non vegans, so the way I see it, it's nothing but ad hominem.
Well yes, more education about this in schools and in general tbh would definitely help. As I said, my opinion on the whole thing may well be biased due to the people I know who are veggie/vegan and how I have actually watched them become pale and ridiculously thin after ditching meat, heard them going on about suffering severe anemia and so on. But yes, they probably just don't balance stuff properly or understand that its so much more than just replacing chicken with processed crap from the supermarket :S

I am not saying eating animals should be the default diet for kids. But if the kid wants to eat meat to the point where she actually cries when kids around her are eating meat that she is not allowed...do you not think this is quite cruel? Obviously some kids chose not to which is fine (aslong as the parents are educated in how to keep the diet as balanced as possible...mind some parents could do with a crash course in this in general) but having the choice totally taken from them...I just think is awful tbh

[Toy Soldier]

TBH I find there's a lot of idealism from people who haven't actually had children, when it comes to children and veganism.

Most children forced onto a vegan diet end up with an iron deficiency, or even anemia. This is what is causing the pale skin and lethargy. Now, this is where vegans start crowing about how many other sources of food, such as green veg, contain plentiful iron to replace the loss from not eating meat.

I challenge you to try to get a child to actually eat green veg. Most children simply will not eat enough of it to replace the iron source lost from not eating meat. They'll load up on grain-based carbs and fruit no problem. They're not going to eat brocolli. It just isn't going to magically happen. "Oh but if that's what they're used to getting" blah blah blah NO... the people saying this are almost exclusively childless and are talking ****. Or they're the vegan mummies pretending that their pale, lethargic child does indeed eat all of his green veg. Spoiler: He doesn't really.

tl;dr I think it's a perfectly acceptable, great even, diet for adults but until there are genuine replacement products that children will actually reliably eat that contain the lost essentials... it is a selfish and dangerous decision to make for a child. Humans are omnivores by nature. It may be more morally correct to be herbivore and with a varied diet it is totally possible but, no, it is not natural; it is a decision, and decisions are for individuals to make, not for parents to force upon their children. Let them eat a natural, varied human diet until they are old enough to make the decision themselves and then by all means encourage it... when they are old enough to understand nutrition and why it's important to eat the "yucky parts".

[Toy Soldier]

But if the kid wants to eat meat to the point where she actually cries when kids around her are eating meat that she is not allowed...do you not think this is quite cruel? Obviously some kids chose not to which is fine (aslong as the parents are educated in how to keep the diet as balanced as possible...mind some parents could do with a crash course in this in general) but having the choice totally taken from them...I just think is awful tbh

If she's actually at the point of crying for certain types of food then it's highly likely that the kid is craving, and has a deficiency. It's not just cruel, it's abuse that's going to cause long-term health problems :shrug:.

[Toy Soldier]

Oh and as a final point, I would add;

Late teens / young adults are still in a rebellion phase. If you force a vegan diet on a child, there's a very high chance that as soon as they move out and are buying their own food they're going to:

A) Eat a ****-tonne of meat;

and

B) Get fat.



This has been statistically proven to be true of kids who "never" get things like chocolate or occasional "junk food" treats at home. As soon as they have their own space and their own cash, and it's logical to assume the exact same is true of any restrictive diet.

https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/tummy-rub-whale.gif

[Niamh.]

Eating any animals is undesirable and something we should seek to change but please don’t suggest to start eating cats, dogs and horses is therefore acceptable - it clearly isn’t. Something a bit suss about about anyone that would suggest that in my opinion.

What? :laugh: I don't think that's what Jack was saying though, from what I understood from his posts he means like what right do we have to judge other countries for eating a type of meat that we don't just because we like those animals more? Don't get me wrong I hate the thought of killing and eating dogs and cats because I view them as pets but at the end of the day they're animals like cows and sheep and pigs so it is hypocritical to judge a country for eating them while munching a kebab :laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

I think we should all try and move to a vegetarian diet in the future. One day we will look at animal slaughter and eating like we look at the ancients and their habits - with horror

We eat very little meat, probably once a week. We are not natural carnivores but omnivores and so occasional meat eating is fine in my world.

The thing is though, we like to keep carnivores as pets and as unnatural as it is for us to eat meat daily, its equally unnatural for our dogs and cats to eat a vegetarian diet. If we all stopped eating meat, would we still slaughter animals for our pets?

[Niamh.]

I think we should all try and move to a vegetarian diet in the future. One day we will look at animal slaughter and eating like we look at the ancients and their habits - with horror

yeah totally agree, I do look at it with horror now when I think about it too much

[y.winter]

Well yes, more education about this in schools and in general tbh would definitely help. As I said, my opinion on the whole thing may well be biased due to the people I know who are veggie/vegan and how I have actually watched them become pale and ridiculously thin after ditching meat, heard them going on about suffering severe anemia and so on. But yes, they probably just don't balance stuff properly or understand that its so much more than just replacing chicken with processed crap from the supermarket :S

I am not saying eating animals should be the default diet for kids. But if the kid wants to eat meat to the point where she actually cries when kids around her are eating meat that she is not allowed...do you not think this is quite cruel? Obviously some kids chose not to which is fine (aslong as the parents are educated in how to keep the diet as balanced as possible...mind some parents could do with a crash course in this in general) but having the choice totally taken from them...I just think is awful tbhI really don't know about those parents personally, so I don't think I can have a proper answer in this case. Kids tend to cry and throw a tantrum about many things ("mommy buy me!" "Mommy I want!" etc), some are justified and some are not, and parental guidance takes part somewhere in-between. It can be a right demand, but it can also be peer pressure for example - kids don't always know what's good for them and it's up to their parents to show them the way (as long as it's not neglecting them). This is my non experienced take on parenthood anyway haha. I don't know the couple or the child but I believe that if something is disturbingly wrong, you can only raise a flag and let the kindergartner/authorities to deal with it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If schools ran regular trips to abattoirs it would greatly help

[jaxie]

I should probably start by saying we aren't vegetarian though the slaughter and eating of animals does bother me, I can't give up the bacon. Having said that I have never had any problems getting my kids to eat vegetables, including broccoli which we've always called little trees which I think helped it appeal more in a magical sort of way.

At birthday parties we always had the little cakes and all the other stuff people have like sausage rolls etc but I always put out a platter of chopped raw veggies a little dip and you know what the kids always ate it, not only my own kids. I remember my mother in law being amazed at one party that there were cakes on the table and the carrot sticks were going like hot cakes.

I remember my sister in law sucking chocolate buttons to soften and putting them on her daughter's mouth when she was one. I didn't give chocolate until they asked and would give them raisons when young. Interestingly my son still doesn't have a sweet tooth and can take or leave chocolate.

I don't really believe this adage that kids won't eat green or other vegetables. I think bad eating habits are given to kids by people like my sister in law. If the veg is available but they aren't forced to eat it then I've found most kids will happily eat it. If they don't like something don't force it, try something else. I think one of the problems with children and veg is being forced to eat badly cooked veg. There is a huge difference between cabbage with the life boiled out of it and cabbage tossed in a little olive oil, salt and pepper, and a few tablespoons of water until soft. But saying they won't eat it is a myth.

With regard to the little girl crying for meat this is probably more about wanting to be like everyone else than the actual meat. She is being singled out as different at mealtimes and that can be uncomfortable for a child.

[Kizzy]

What do you think quorn is? It's meat flavoured wheat protein.

[Jack_]

Eating any animals is undesirable and something we should seek to change but please don’t suggest to start eating cats, dogs and horses is therefore acceptable - it clearly isn’t. Something a bit suss about about anyone that would suggest that in my opinion.

How about you wind your neck in for a second? For starters your first half sentence is purely subjective, do I think killing animals for food is problematic and morally wrong? Yes. Do I care enough to stop eating meat? No, and I'm not going to pretend I do. Would I be prepared to give it up provided there was an alternative that covered the two bases I noted in the post you quoted? Probably.

As for the rest of it...Niamh pretty much summed up my intended point though I will add that I myself would have no qualms about trying 'different' meats. The only animal I truly love are cats but if I was offered to try a bit (provided I wasn't privy to the cat or its demise a la other meats, obviously) I'm not going to sit here and tell you I wouldn't be tempted because I'd be lying. The point I'm making is that I find the monopoly of dignity we put on certain animals that we've domesticated completely bogus. So, in the horse meat scandal that I mentioned, my issue was with the corporate lies to consumers rather than the fact the substitute meat had been horses. If it tastes nice and isn't dangerous to me...I really couldn't care less what animal it was.

I just find the whole 'but they're our pets!' thing complete hypocrisy. Either you abhor the killing of all animals, or you (like me) are open to trying/eating/allowing other people to eat whatever animals they like. You don't get to pick and choose which animals lives are more valuable than others simply because you could have some of them as pets, I actually think that's worse than either of the other two positions. Oh and lastly, if you're just using this as an opportunity to peddle your whole 'aren't foreign customs weird lol' then spare me because I'm really not interested.

[Vicky.]

I should probably start by saying we aren't vegetarian though the slaughter and eating of animals does bother me, I can't give up the bacon. Having said that I have never had any problems getting my kids to eat vegetables, including broccoli which we've always called little trees which I think helped it appeal more in a magical sort of way.

At birthday parties we always had the little cakes and all the other stuff people have like sausage rolls etc but I always put out a platter of chopped raw veggies a little dip and you know what the kids always ate it, not only my own kids. I remember my mother in law being amazed at one party that there were cakes on the table and the carrot sticks were going like hot cakes.

I remember my sister in law sucking chocolate buttons to soften and putting them on her daughter's mouth when she was one. I didn't give chocolate until they asked and would give them raisons when young. Interestingly my son still doesn't have a sweet tooth and can take or leave chocolate.

I don't really believe this adage that kids won't eat green or other vegetables. I think bad eating habits are given to kids by people like my sister in law. If the veg is available but they aren't forced to eat it then I've found most kids will happily eat it. If they don't like something don't force it, try something else. I think one of the problems with children and veg is being forced to eat badly cooked veg. There is a huge difference between cabbage with the life boiled out of it and cabbage tossed in a little olive oil, salt and pepper, and a few tablespoons of water until soft. But saying they won't eat it is a myth.

With regard to the little girl crying for meat this is probably more about wanting to be like everyone else than the actual meat. She is being singled out as different at mealtimes and that can be uncomfortable for a child.
Wish my kids were like this. They are always given a few different veg as part of their main meals. Never forced to eat it (I don't pressure them to eat anything, besides telling them that if they don't eat the healthy stuff they aren't getting desert...if that counts as forcing :D ), but its fairly rare that they will eat it without some form of bribing, and sometimes refuse even with that.

I was a dodgy kid like this and the picky eating is still with me tbh. I used to refuse all veg besides carrots, where my brother and sister ate veg a fair bit (but still not as often as my parents would have liked) so it clearly wasn't anything my parents did wrong if 2/3 kids were healthier eaters

[Kizzy]

Eating any animals is undesirable and something we should seek to change but please don’t suggest to start eating cats, dogs and horses is therefore acceptable - it clearly isn’t. Something a bit suss about about anyone that would suggest that in my opinion.

Bit sus about people who eat horses.. But people who eat fluffy ikkle lambs are perfectly sane and rational? :/

We ate horses until the 20th century when after being used in the war plus owned as pets elevated their status, that's all.

'By the 20th century many British towns had horse meat butchers to supply “kicker eaters” (Yorkshire slang for hippophagists). In Sheffield, in Aberdeen, beef was not the only red meat on offer. It had to be sold with clear labelling and new shops made the national newspapers, but it was openly available. Like whale meat, it was seen as a cheap cut, and, although debate raged on, had some popularity in wartime.
And yet the horse’s lot was changing once more. As the number of working horses tumbled following World War Two, so the horse moved further from being livestock and closer to being a pet and friend. British appetites fell away as images of horses being shipped to the continent for slaughter reached the public. A mid 1980s scare over trichomoniasis contamination only reinforced sentiments: there was something shameful about eating horses.'

'But there is no reason not to eat horse meat. It is abundant, and good for you. Steak tartare is traditionally recommended for invalids due to its supposed purity. Horses are fussy eaters; unlike cows they eat only grain and grass and could not be persuaded to eat meat and bone-meal.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/9806150/They-eat-horses-dont-they.html

[Niamh.]

Wish my kids were like this. They are always given a few different veg as part of their main meals. Never forced to eat it (I don't pressure them to eat anything, besides telling them that if they don't eat the healthy stuff they aren't getting desert...if that counts as forcing :D ), but its fairly rare that they will eat it without some form of bribing, and sometimes refuse even with that.

I was a dodgy kid like this and the picky eating is still with me tbh. I used to refuse all veg besides carrots, where my brother and sister ate veg a fair bit (but still not as often as my parents would have liked) so it clearly wasn't anything my parents did wrong if 2/3 kids were healthier eaters

I half agree with Jaxie and half disagree, I think in some cases it's bad parenting but in others it's just down to the child.

It reminds me of a friend of my mothers, she had two boys, the first was as good as gold as a baby slept away, did what he was told when he was a toddler etc and she used to think to herself "I don't know what's wrong with people, this is easy, it's the parents fault blah blah" and then she had her second son lol and he was a tyrant :laugh: she raised him exactly the same as the first, he was just a different person

[Toy Soldier]

I don't really believe this adage that kids won't eat green or other vegetables. I think bad eating habits are given to kids by people like my sister in law. If the veg is available but they aren't forced to eat it then I've found most kids will happily eat it. If they don't like something don't force it, try something else. I think one of the problems with children and veg is being forced to eat badly cooked veg. There is a huge difference between cabbage with the life boiled out of it and cabbage tossed in a little olive oil, salt and pepper, and a few tablespoons of water until soft. But saying they won't eat it is a myth.

I 100% believe that if you have kids who will eat green veg - specifically green veg as that's where you get iron - then it's more down to luck than anything else. Neither of mine will touch it, and I don't know many who will eat much of it easily.

A few mouthfuls here and there isn't a sufficient nutrient replacement for meat.

[DemolitionRed]

I half agree with Jaxie and half disagree, I think in some cases it's bad parenting but in others it's just down to the child.

It reminds me of a friend of my mothers, she had two boys, the first was as good as gold as a baby slept away, did what he was told when he was a toddler etc and she used to think to herself "I don't know what's wrong with people, this is easy, it's the parents fault blah blah" and then she had her second son lol and he was a tyrant :laugh: she raised him exactly the same as the first, he was just a different person

haha! sounds like our experience.

[Niamh.]

haha! sounds like our experience.

:laugh:

My two were very good in general, it was a major struggle to get my daughter to eat veg though when she was very young, my son was always very good for eating them though. Now they're older it seems to have switched around

[Vicky.]

Yeah Skye slept through the night by like 2 weeks old. Even went a few solid 12 hour stretches when she was a few days old. We assumed it was something that we did right, where others just pandered too much and that.

Then came James. Who still does not consistently sleep through the night aged 3 :bored: Despite everything being done the same.

So many things are just luck of the draw with kids I think. yes parenting can make a difference, but not always

[Niamh.]

Yeah Skye slept through the night by like 2 weeks old. Even went a few solid 12 hour stretches when she was a few days old. We assumed it was something that we did right, where others just pandered too much and that.

Then came James. Who still does not consistently sleep through the night aged 3 :bored: Despite everything being done the same.

So many things are just luck of the draw with kids I think. yes parenting can make a difference, but not always

Absolutely, of course the way you parent has a massive effect but also, kids are individuals with different personalities too

[arista]

TBH I find there's a lot of idealism from people who haven't actually had children, when it comes to children and veganism.

Most children forced onto a vegan diet end up with an iron deficiency, or even anemia. This is what is causing the pale skin and lethargy. Now, this is where vegans start crowing about how many other sources of food, such as green veg, contain plentiful iron to replace the loss from not eating meat.

I challenge you to try to get a child to actually eat green veg. Most children simply will not eat enough of it to replace the iron source lost from not eating meat. They'll load up on grain-based carbs and fruit no problem. They're not going to eat brocolli. It just isn't going to magically happen. "Oh but if that's what they're used to getting" blah blah blah NO... the people saying this are almost exclusively childless and are talking ****. Or they're the vegan mummies pretending that their pale, lethargic child does indeed eat all of his green veg. Spoiler: He doesn't really.

tl;dr I think it's a perfectly acceptable, great even, diet for adults but until there are genuine replacement products that children will actually reliably eat that contain the lost essentials... it is a selfish and dangerous decision to make for a child. Humans are omnivores by nature. It may be more morally correct to be herbivore and with a varied diet it is totally possible but, no, it is not natural; it is a decision, and decisions are for individuals to make, not for parents to force upon their children. Let them eat a natural, varied human diet until they are old enough to make the decision themselves and then by all means encourage it... when they are old enough to understand nutrition and why it's important to eat the "yucky parts".


Yes Prof T.S.
Fascist Parents etc.

[Kizzy]

TBH I find there's a lot of idealism from people who haven't actually had children, when it comes to children and veganism.

Most children forced onto a vegan diet end up with an iron deficiency, or even anemia. This is what is causing the pale skin and lethargy. Now, this is where vegans start crowing about how many other sources of food, such as green veg, contain plentiful iron to replace the loss from not eating meat.

I challenge you to try to get a child to actually eat green veg. Most children simply will not eat enough of it to replace the iron source lost from not eating meat. They'll load up on grain-based carbs and fruit no problem. They're not going to eat brocolli. It just isn't going to magically happen. "Oh but if that's what they're used to getting" blah blah blah NO... the people saying this are almost exclusively childless and are talking ****. Or they're the vegan mummies pretending that their pale, lethargic child does indeed eat all of his green veg. Spoiler: He doesn't really.

tl;dr I think it's a perfectly acceptable, great even, diet for adults but until there are genuine replacement products that children will actually reliably eat that contain the lost essentials... it is a selfish and dangerous decision to make for a child. Humans are omnivores by nature. It may be more morally correct to be herbivore and with a varied diet it is totally possible but, no, it is not natural; it is a decision, and decisions are for individuals to make, not for parents to force upon their children. Let them eat a natural, varied human diet until they are old enough to make the decision themselves and then by all means encourage it... when they are old enough to understand nutrition and why it's important to eat the "yucky parts".

I agree that a balanced diet is important however I would say that quality over quantity is important ethically raised or organic for maximum nutrient benefit something that children from the poorest families although eating meat are seriously deficient in, it is they that are pasty and essentially malnourished.

As for children turning their noses up at brassicas it's possibly due to the bitter taste had they been exposed at weaning or maybe even in utero this would be different, my two don't turn their noses up at anything. I made food and they ate it no question there was no alternative.
I consider it 'modern' parenting to offer a compromise.

[DemolitionRed]

I won't eat Lobster because of the way its slaughtered and I won't eat veal or foie gras because of the way its raised.

[jaxie]

Re the eating horses discussion, while I wouldn't want to eat a horse because I find them beautiful and girls and ponies and stuff, many horses will have medication in them that people shouldn't eat. Race horses for instance aren't meant to go into the food chain.

I also don't eat lobster, or any shellfish boiled alive.

[jaxie]

Wish my kids were like this. They are always given a few different veg as part of their main meals. Never forced to eat it (I don't pressure them to eat anything, besides telling them that if they don't eat the healthy stuff they aren't getting desert...if that counts as forcing :D ), but its fairly rare that they will eat it without some form of bribing, and sometimes refuse even with that.

I was a dodgy kid like this and the picky eating is still with me tbh. I used to refuse all veg besides carrots, where my brother and sister ate veg a fair bit (but still not as often as my parents would have liked) so it clearly wasn't anything my parents did wrong if 2/3 kids were healthier eaters

There is nothing wrong with carrots. If you liked them I'd just make sure they were there. If you are a fussy eater it is possible your kids could just follow and pick up on it. No two people are exactly the same and there will always be some who don't like certain things. I just think that people make a lot out of the eating vegetables and it often becomes a pressure or a thing, kids are very intuitive. I've even had kids round for tea in the past who have eaten broccoli and had a mother point blank refuse to believe it. :shrug: But they ate it happliy, probably because the other kids were eating it, all big eyed about who shrunk the trees. :laugh:

Another thing I've always done is used plenty of veg in the cooking, curry with broccoli and cauliflower chopped in is really nice. If it all comes out of a pot in a nice sauce half the time they don't even notice. Also a lot of kids seem to prefer raw veggies with a mayo dip but that's ok, probably more healthy than cooked if you don't overdo the Mayo.

Have you ever tried tossing your cabbage in a little (tablespoon) olive oil and water? It Cooks in less than five minutes in a frying pan. It is really nice. Go for a light green cabbage the ones that look a bit like an iceberg lettuce. I hated brussel sprouts so I roast them with the potatoes, they are fantastic roasted.

I didn't eat greens much as a kid, partly due to being a bit neglected and partly because when my mother did cook she stewed the life out of it. But I found as an adult that I quite liked them if they were cooked nicely. And at the end of the day if they will only eat carrots and sweet corn and peas, give them that.

And runner beans, love runner beans! Throw them in the curry and the stir fry! Put them in the spaghetti sauce so they have to wind them on a fork with the spaghetti.

[Vicky.]

Yup believe me we have tried pretty much everything to make veg more tasty. Sometimes we can get it down them just by putting a thick coating of gravy over it all :laugh: But sometimes that doesn't work either. My daughter will actually sit and pick out all veg from curries and such. She has a bit of a thing for the heinz big soups at the minute though (the ones with large chunks of veg, not the creamy crap), but sits picking out the individual peas...so strange. I don't understand kids at all tbh. My son is less picky and will eat pretty much anything he is given and seems to enjoy it. But often if Skye is being awkward he will just copy her so goes without too.

Gav loves his veg and is a great cook so that side of stuff tends to be down to him. I usually don't eat til the kids are in bed as I am so worried about them picking up my issues with healthy stuff D: So I don't think they have picked it up from me as he nearly always eats with them and his plate is always piles high with everything healthy

Kids LOVE my mash though, as does Gavin. Not sure why my mash is so nice but apparently it is. I can sneak veg to them that way as I have always done it when making it for them, mash turnip and such into it and they just think its normal mash :D

[Oliver_W]

horse blahblah
Yeah, I think people mistakenly think horses are extra intelligent tbh

[Morgan.]

Yup believe me we have tried pretty much everything to make veg more tasty. Sometimes we can get it down them just by putting a thick coating of gravy over it all :laugh: But sometimes that doesn't work either. My daughter will actually sit and pick out all veg from curries and such. She has a bit of a thing for the heinz big soups at the minute though (the ones with large chunks of veg, not the creamy crap), but sits picking out the individual peas...so strange. I don't understand kids at all tbh. My son is less picky and will eat pretty much anything he is given and seems to enjoy it. But often if Skye is being awkward he will just copy her so goes without too.

Gav loves his veg and is a great cook so that side of stuff tends to be down to him. I usually don't eat til the kids are in bed as I am so worried about them picking up my issues with healthy stuff D: So I don't think they have picked it up from me as he nearly always eats with them and his plate is always piles high with everything healthy

Kids LOVE my mash though, as does Gavin. Not sure why my mash is so nice but apparently it is. I can sneak veg to them that way as I have always done it when making it for them, mash turnip and such into it and they just think its normal mash :D

This is me from about age 7 and still do now (16). I was diagnosed with an eating disorder to do with the textures of food so if I don't like how something feels in my mouth then I won't eat it. My parents never chose to correct it because they didn't want me to be forced to eat things I dislike - so things like onion, mushroom, spinach, cooked carrots, broccoli etc all have to be either taken out of my food or chopped up really small (we have a little machine that does this for us :P ) becaus eotherwise I don't touch it.

[DemolitionRed]

Re the eating horses discussion, while I wouldn't want to eat a horse because I find them beautiful and girls and ponies and stuff, many horses will have medication in them that people shouldn't eat. Race horses for instance aren't meant to go into the food chain.

I also don't eat lobster, or any shellfish boiled alive.

I used to run a horse yard and have always owned horses. Horses that are on any sort of medication or who have recently been on medication, cannot be sold to the meat chain, not even for pet food. That being said, there are unscrupulous slaughtermen. There was a case about 12 years ago where stollen ponies were being taken to an unlicensed abattoir on the Isle of White. Fortunately, horses have to now have a passport, which means horses can no longer be purchased at market without full id and id means everything is traceable, including ownership veterinary records.

The horses and ponies that get sold on for meat are mainly Dartmoor/Exmoor and New Forrest wild ponies. Retired racehorses do end up in the meat chain but tragically, they usually get shipped on the hoof to foreign lands for that slaughter.

Whilst I agree with a lot of what Jack says about death being death regardless of the animal; having worked for so long with horses, I feel as though I've gained a spiritual connection with these wonderful beasts. For that reason, I couldn't bring myself to eat horse meat. Its the same with cats and dogs. I've owned and deeply connected with both and so eating them would be like eating my fellow man.

[Toy Soldier]

'modern' parenting.

God forbid!

[waterhog]

Yeah, I think people mistakenly think horses are extra intelligent tbh

I am not sure if I had horse but the next morning omg was I trotting :shrug: