Is it racist to dress up as a Zulu for event

[jaxie]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/30/lewes-bonfire-blacking-up-not-racist-says-zulu-performer

I thought this was an interesting story. There is an argument in Lewes as to whether an old tradition of locals dressing up as Zulu's is offensive. A Zulu performer says it's not offensive. He make a good a point when he says it's nice that people want to be like him rather than saying it's wrong to be like him. Is that the way the dressing up should be viewed or should we view it that they are mocking him?

I wonder if what they are commemorating is more offensive than the costumes, a war the Zulus lost, then again, are we getting too sensitive about past events and should we simply take them for what they are something that once happened? Interesting one to think about.

What do you think?

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/pri_58188322.jpg?w=748&h=496&crop=1https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Lewes_Bonfire%2C_Martyrs_Crosses_02_detail.jpg
https://www.blazingcatfur.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Zulu-White-Guy.jpg

[smudgie]

I can't see how dressing up as a Zulu gives a negative stereotype.
The Zulu warrior dance is amazing to see, and if people have been imitating it for many years then I see it as more positive than negative.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Im going out trick or treating dressed as a black Kevin Spacey

[Oliver_W]

People should dress how they like for Halloween, people who whinge about it whinge about everything.

[Vicky.]

People do tend to get up in arms about a lot of stuff.

I think the issue here is 'blackface', which does offend a lot of people, and is fairly well known that it offends a lot of people.

[Firewire]

Yes it’s racist

[user104658]

:facepalm:

Yes, it is, and not because "it's a white person dressing as a black person" but because of the specifics of the Anglo-Zulu war, and British colonialism in Africa in general. In this case, very much worth looking into the actual specifics before deciding that "lol no dressing up isnt racist lol."

[Shaun]

Just a tad, yes.

[Brother Leon]

Dressing as one is fine. Blackface isn't. /Thread

[Josy]

Maybe a bit of a bias view this but no I don't think its racist at all....every year for Christmas and Galaday events in our village my great granda, then my granda, after him my uncle and lastly my cousin were famous for being the village Zulu and doing the dance etc, everyone loved and expected it as part of tradition and there was no racist undertones about it.

[Cherie]

Maybe a bit of a bias view this but no I don't think its racist at all....every year for Christmas and Galaday events in our village my great granda, then my granda, after him my uncle and lastly my cousin were famous for being the village Zulu and doing the dance etc, everyone loved and expected it as part of tradition and there was no racist undertones about it.

:clap2:

If something isn't done in a malicious way then how can it be racist, my boys take off my Irish accent all the time, should they be banned ...:laugh:

waits for someone to come along and call Josy's relatives racist :whistle:

[DemolitionRed]

I can't see how dressing up as a Zulu gives a negative stereotype.
The Zulu warrior dance is amazing to see, and if people have been imitating it for many years then I see it as more positive than negative.

I agree the Zulu dance is amazing. I love the Zulu parade at the London festival. I know they have a rule in Louisianna; if you are going to join the Zulu parade during mardi gras, you have to blacken your face regardless of you being black or white. The thing is though, the Zulu dance and Zulu parades are all about celebrating the black man's heritage and you don't have to be black to do that. If you want to join in the celebrations, 'laissez les bons temps rouler.'

The thing is, this isn't a festival and there is no Zulu parade. When these random people blacken-up as Zulus for Halloween, are they going to dress like Zulu kings and queens or are they going to try and look like savages? Are they blackening their faces and dressing up with the intent of frightening people? I'm against that because that is not how any of us, including black people, should be representing the Zulu race.

People who blackface at Xmas don't do so to represent Zulu's. Its an ancient tradition of Zwarte Piet who was a companion of St Nicholas.

[Withano]

I would say racism needs an intention. Some people just have stupid Halloween ideas. That doesn't make them racist. It makes them thick.

[Withano]

Then again that's more about them as a person. I suppose the concept of the costume is quite racist yh.

[smudgie]

I agree the Zulu dance is amazing. I love the Zulu parade at the London festival. I know they have a rule in Louisianna; if you are going to join the Zulu parade during mardi gras, you have to blacken your face regardless of you being black or white. The thing is though, the Zulu dance and Zulu parades are all about celebrating the black man's heritage and you don't have to be black to do that. If you want to join in the celebrations, 'laissez les bons temps rouler.'

The thing is, this isn't a festival and there is no Zulu parade. When these random people blacken-up as Zulus for Halloween, are they going to dress like Zulu kings and queens or are they going to try and look like savages? Are they blackening their faces and dressing up with the intent of frightening people? I'm against that because that is not how any of us, including black people, should be representing the Zulu race.

People who blackface at Xmas don't do so to represent Zulu's. Its an ancient tradition of Zwarte Piet who was a companion of St Nicholas.

It is a bonfire parade, it's not random people, they are part of a historical group, one of 7 different ones that take part.
They have been dressing as Zulu warriors since before the Second World War for this parade.
The people on parade have nothing to do with Zwarte Piet, it's a Dutch tradition and had nothing to do with being a Zulu warrior.

[jaxie]

I agree the Zulu dance is amazing. I love the Zulu parade at the London festival. I know they have a rule in Louisianna; if you are going to join the Zulu parade during mardi gras, you have to blacken your face regardless of you being black or white. The thing is though, the Zulu dance and Zulu parades are all about celebrating the black man's heritage and you don't have to be black to do that. If you want to join in the celebrations, 'laissez les bons temps rouler.'

The thing is, this isn't a festival and there is no Zulu parade. When these random people blacken-up as Zulus for Halloween, are they going to dress like Zulu kings and queens or are they going to try and look like savages? Are they blackening their faces and dressing up with the intent of frightening people? I'm against that because that is not how any of us, including black people, should be representing the Zulu race.

People who blackface at Xmas don't do so to represent Zulu's. Its an ancient tradition of Zwarte Piet who was a companion of St Nicholas.


If you read the article the event is spoken of from the point of view of the leader of the Zulu dancers employed to perform there who doesn't find it racist. So there genuine Zulu dancers present as well. It's not just people dressing up for Halloween.

[DemolitionRed]

I admit to not reading the article but if that's the case, what's the problem?!?

[Shaun]

[/B]

:clap2:

If something isn't done in a malicious way then how can it be racist, my boys take off my Irish accent all the time, should they be banned ...:laugh:

waits for someone to come along and call Josy's relatives racist :whistle:

I've never understood this line of defense. Things don't have to be malicious to be racist and propagating dated stereotypes. And an accent isn't a crude costume of someone's skin colour.

[Alf]

What isn't?


trIyY7sS3ik

[Cherie]

I've never understood this line of defense. Things don't have to be malicious to be racist and propagating dated stereotypes. And an accent isn't a crude costume of someone's skin colour.

an accent is just as much a part of someone's culture as is skin colour imo. I think it is all about intent, for instance a lot of the older generation still use the word "coloured", many don't use it as a racial slur they use it because it was acceptable back in the day and they are none the wiser that it is no longer unacceptable, are they being racist, or have they just not moved with the times?

[Brillopad]

an accent is just as much a part of someone's culture as is skin colour imo. I think it is all about intent, for instance a lot of the older generation still use the word "coloured", many don't use it as a racial slur they use it because it was acceptable back in the day and they are none the wiser that it is no longer unacceptable.

It demonstrates to me that the younger generation have no better understanding of a different generation than the older generation do and are just as intolerant to different views as those they accuse of intolerance. We have seen such intolerance on here by the bucket-load.

[user104658]

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist :hee: " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist :hee: " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.

well by that logic people who "claim" to be offended have no clue why either?

so you have answered your own question and ended the thread

Bingo :joker:

[Alf]

Some people are just trying to have a bit of fun by dressing up in fancy dress once a year. And some people are trying to stop the fun.

You can see who the trouble causers are.

[Brillopad]

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist :hee: " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.

Putting a slightly different slant on it, but the principle is the same in my opinion, should women then not be offended when men dress up as women for entertainment purposes ie drag queens.

Don’t you think that men dressing up as women to prance around in costumes might not be seen as sexist and insensitive by some people! Or don’t the feelings of women count as they seem to be the most mis-treated group of people worldwide despite making up 50% of the population. What does that say about how women and their feelings count in the eyes of many.

[user104658]

well by that logic people who "claim" to be offended have no clue why either?

so you have answered your own question and ended the thread

Bingo :joker:

You're going to have to explain "that logic" LT (using actual logic, plz, not supposition) because it doesn't logically follow at all. Like literally.

A = know the history
B = do not know the history
C = think it's racially offensive
D = think it's fine

My statement is a simple pair;
if A then C
most D then B



You have taken those statements and made your own supposition that;

if D = B then C = B



tl;dr you're incorrect, it doesn't logically follow at all.

[user104658]

Putting a slightly different slant on it, but the principle is the same in my opinion, should women then not be offended when men dress up as women for entertainment purposes ie drag queens.

Don’t you think that men dressing up as women to prance around in costumes might not be seen as sexist and insensitive by some people! Or don’t the feelings of women count as they seem to be the most mis-treated group of people worldwide despite making up 50% of the population. What does that say about how women and their feelings count in the eyes of many.

I'm sure many are offended by it, but then, they would probably be even more offended by it if the people doing it had invaded their continent to enslave its population, cut them down in the thousands with Gatling cannons, proceded to exploit the land for every resource available, then left behind a wrecked continent rife with poverty and corruption. Just a thought.

[Alf]

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist :hee: " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

[Brillopad]

I'm sure many are offended by it, but then, they would probably be even more offended by it if the people doing it had invaded their continent to enslave its population, cut them down in the thousands with Gatling cannons, proceded to exploit the land for every resource available, then left behind a wrecked continent rife with poverty and corruption. Just a thought.

You don’t think women have and are still being enslaved by many men. I would imagine many women in certain parts of the world, probably here in Britain, still feel and are enslaved with no say in their own lives.

[Oliver_W]

So we're apparently using the Sociology class definition of racism, i.e. "it's power+privilege REEEE" rather than the actual, working definition. Okay.

[user104658]

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

It's about "my feelings"? I'm not personally offended by it at all Alf, hate to break it to you, I'm sure it'd give you that down-low tickle if I was. The thread title was a question, I'm answering the question. And as there don't appear to be any Zulus on the forum... it would be a pretty quiet thread if non-Zulus weren't supposed to answer :idc:.

Unless the only acceptable answer is "Oh derp I denno cos I'm not a Zulu!"

Though that would explain quite a lot about many people's inability to grasp the concept of racism :think:. "Werl I'm not one of them so I denno what is a racism".

[user104658]

So we're apparently using the Sociology class definition of racism, i.e. "it's power+privilege REEEE" rather than the actual, working definition. Okay.

I'll save you some trouble here;

"Racism" is probably too broad a stroke for what we're talking about in this thread.

No it is not actively racist. However it is racially insensitive. If the latter term helps you to form a clearer opinion here, you should go with that.

[Cherie]

well by that logic people who "claim" to be offended have no clue why either?

so you have answered your own question and ended the thread

Bingo :joker:

:fan:

[Alf]

Freedom? these Marxists hate it.

[Brillopad]

It's about "my feelings"? I'm not personally offended by it at all Alf, hate to break it to you, I'm sure it'd give you that down-low tickle if I was. The thread title was a question, I'm answering the question. And as there don't appear to be any Zulus on the forum... it would be a pretty quiet thread if non-Zulus weren't supposed to answer :idc:.

Unless the only acceptable answer is "Oh derp I denno cos I'm not a Zulu!"

Though that would explain quite a lot about many people's inability to grasp the concept of racism :think:. "Werl I'm not one of them so I denno what is a racism".

For an articulate poster I am always disappointed when you regularly resort to attempting to undermine other posters by attempting to suggest that anyone you perceive may have ‘racist’ views must be ‘semi-illiterate and uneducated’ with the use of language such as ‘derp’ and ’denno’’. Patronising or manipulative or both - hmm!

[user104658]

For an articulate poster I am always disappointed when you regularly resort to attempting to undermine other posters by attempting to suggest that anyone you perceive may have ‘racist’ views must be ‘semi-illiterate and uneducated’ with the use of language such as ‘derp’ and ’denno’’. Patronising or manipulative or both - hmm!


See, that's where you're wrong Brillo. I don't think people are semi-illiterate, uneducated or stupid, and that's really my main problem with it. I think people willfully PRETEND that they don't "get why it might be racially insensitive" because they don't want to change their behavior, or feel that by being asked to be considerate they are somehow being controlled or having their freedoms removed. I highly suspect that certain people arguing against the idea that it might be racist understand the argument perfectly well, but will swear blue in the face that they don't, because it doesn't suit them to be understanding of it. Hence; "Derp!". It's not me saying that people ARE stupid, it's me saying "Stop ****ing pretending to be", even if you do disagree with it, argue against it and justify it PROPERLY instead of pretending "not to get it at all".

[Alf]

See, that's where you're wrong Brillo. I don't think people are semi-illiterate, uneducated or stupid, and that's really my main problem with it. I think people willfully PRETEND that they don't "get why it might be racially insensitive" because they don't want to change their behavior, or feel that by being asked to be considerate they are somehow being controlled or having their freedoms removed. I highly suspect that certain people arguing against the idea that it might be racist understand the argument perfectly well, but will swear blue in the face that they don't, because it doesn't suit them to be understanding of it. Hence; "Derp!". It's not me saying that people ARE stupid, it's me saying "Stop ****ing pretending to be", even if you do disagree with it, argue against it and justify it PROPERLY instead of pretending "not to get it at all".It's a fancy dress costume, there is no need to make it political. It's just someone having a fun night out at a fancy dress party, they are not trying to oppress anyone.

[Brillopad]

See, that's where you're wrong Brillo. I don't think people are semi-illiterate, uneducated or stupid, and that's really my main problem with it. I think people willfully PRETEND that they don't "get why it might be racially insensitive" because they don't want to change their behavior, or feel that by being asked to be considerate they are somehow being controlled or having their freedoms removed. I highly suspect that certain people arguing against the idea that it might be racist understand the argument perfectly well, but will swear blue in the face that they don't, because it doesn't suit them to be understanding of it. Hence; "Derp!". It's not me saying that people ARE stupid, it's me saying "Stop ****ing pretending to be", even if you do disagree with it, argue against it and justify it PROPERLY instead of pretending "not to get it at all".

But however well or how strongly you put it it is still only opinion but you suggest it is based on knowledge asking people to reply without googling. How the hell do we know you didn’t google anything?

I would imagine most are aware of the slavery of blacks in the past, often by their own, not just whites. But I would also imagine they would be aware of the slavery of women in the past and present. And ironically the countries where female slavery, violence, rape and murder are most prevalent are most likely to occur within non-white communities. Unpalletable perhaps, but true.

I see you defend what you see as ‘racism’ at every turn but tbh I don’t remember seeing you defend ‘sexism’ - certainly not with the same vigor. Life for many in this world is pretty damn unbearable based on the fact they are female. But how often is that condemned on here!

[Marsh.]

[/B]

:clap2:

If something isn't done in a malicious way then how can it be racist, my boys take off my Irish accent all the time, should they be banned ...:laugh:

waits for someone to come along and call Josy's relatives racist :whistle:

What does your son's mimicking an Irish accent have to do with race or racism though? :think: That's not a like for like comparison and certainly not the same as blackface.

[jaxie]

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

:clap1:

You know it's kind of funny but the argument some are having is over the post title or what I pointed out about the article and it is obvious to me they haven't read it. The article is quite interesting and talks about three different view points.

[Cherie]

What does your son's mimicking an Irish accent have to do with race or racism though? :think: That's not a like for like comparison and certainly not the same as blackface.

I could get mortally offended!

[Marsh.]

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

He's giving his opinion, as he's entitled.

Now who's dictating what people can do? :think:

[Marsh.]

I could get mortally offended!

Good for you?

I could get mortally offended if someone doesn't like my cooking, but that isn't comparable to racism either.

[Brillopad]

Good for you?

I could get mortally offended if someone doesn't like my cooking, but that isn't comparable to racism either.

Sexism is definitely comparable to racism but does it get the same airtime on here - not on your nelly!

I would say there is and has been more sexism in the world than racism as females make up 50% of the world population and it is often practised by men who are the first to shout racism.

[Marsh.]

Sexism is definitely comparable to racism but does it get the same airtime on here - not on your nelly!

I would say there is and has been more sexism in the world than racism as females make up 50% of the world population and it is often practised by men who are the first to shout racism.

Sexism is an issue of its own.

But, discarding one very real and very important issue by shouting "Well, there are other bad things happening in the world! :(" is kind of childish.

Yes, sexism is awful too but that's not the topic of this particular discussion, and let's not pretend sexism isn't a huge debate of its own across the world.

As far as "airtime" on TiBB, the very fact that such a large portion of the forum were completely outraged by a lot of "the truth's" ridiculous posts shows that thankfully we're largely a forum that doesn't tolerate sexism and the abuse that comes with it.

[Kizzy]

Sexism is definitely comparable to racism but does it get the same airtime on here - not on your nelly!

I would say there is and has been more sexism in the world than racism as females make up 50% of the world population and it is often practised by men who are the first to shout racism.

Could you explain this statement please?

I don't agree with blackface either, if you want to celebrate zulus ask a zulu to come and give a talk, this exhibition however 'cultural' they paint it is still a homage to colonialism.

[Cherie]

Could you explain this statement please?

I don't agree with blackface either, if you want to celebrate zulus ask a zulu to come and give a talk, this exhibition however 'cultural' they paint it is still a homage to colonialism.

:er:



A row over whether revellers who “black up” for Saturday’s bonfire parade in Lewes are racist has taken a twist after the leader of a Zulu dance troupe booked to appear alongside them said the practice was not offensive.

Rival factions in the East Sussex town have mounted petitions for and against white members of one of its seven historic bonfire societies parading in versions of Zulu dress and painting their faces black.

But Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive, the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

“I would be offended by people showing up in a Ku Klux Klan uniform,” Gumede said. “So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me

[Kizzy]

:er:



A row over whether revellers who “black up” for Saturday’s bonfire parade in Lewes are racist has taken a twist after the leader of a Zulu dance troupe booked to appear alongside them said the practice was not offensive.

Rival factions in the East Sussex town have mounted petitions for and against white members of one of its seven historic bonfire societies parading in versions of Zulu dress and painting their faces black.

But Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive, the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

“I would be offended by people showing up in a Ku Klux Klan uniform,” Gumede said. “So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me

Due to the :er: I can't take anything else in your post seriously.

I don't appreciate mockery and this is exactly why the blackface 'tradition' will never sit well with me.
I read the article and am therefore aware of that opinion.

[Cherie]

Due to the :er: I can't take anything else in your post seriously.

I don't appreciate mockery and this is exactly why the blackface 'tradition' will never sit well with me.
I read the article and am therefore aware of that opinion.

you asked for a Zulu, when they already had one :think:

[Tom4784]

The act of Blackface is inherently racist.

[Brillopad]

Sexism is an issue of its own.

But, discarding one very real and very important issue by shouting "Well, there are other bad things happening in the world! :(" is kind of childish.

Yes, sexism is awful too but that's not the topic of this particular discussion, and let's not pretend sexism isn't a huge debate of its own across the world.

As far as "airtime" on TiBB, the very fact that such a large portion of the forum were completely outraged by a lot of "the truth's" ridiculous posts shows that thankfully we're largely a forum that doesn't tolerate sexism and the abuse that comes with it.

That was because the Truth’s views on women were pretty extreme but non-extreme views simply questioning allegations of racism are repeatedly labelled racist on here. I made a definitive link between men dressing as women for fun and entertainment as people dressing as zulus for the same reasons but judging by the reactions of some they see that as different - what is the difference? There is no difference.

Women are and always have been a maligned group and treated as a second-class by many men worldwide despite making up 50% of the population, which is worse. I am not aware of any shouts of sexism when men dress as women but it’s very different if a white person dresses as a Zulu. It’s double standards.

It proves to me that the constant uproar about so-called racism has more to do with what is fashionable and PC and being seen to be doing the right thing than it does with any real concerns with equality as any such genuine concerns would not be so selective.

[Kizzy]

you asked for a Zulu, when they already had one :think:

Nope, I said ask Zulus to perform instead, not blacken your face in some conceited attempt to emulate them.

[Brillopad]

Could you explain this statement please?

I don't agree with blackface either, if you want to celebrate zulus ask a zulu to come and give a talk, this exhibition however 'cultural' they paint it is still a homage to colonialism.

I would have thought it pretty explanatory. Sexism towards women is and always has been rife worldwide. If people want to be so pedantic about racism by being offended about a white person dressing up as a Zulu then the same should apply to men dressing up as women - some men, drag queens, even make a living out of it. No one makes a fuss about that. What is the difference?

I think this constant over-reaction to anything related to skin colour has undermined and devalued racism and it has lost its meaning. It has been used and abused and I don’t believe it has done race relations any favours. As a woman you can’t even see the selective nature of ‘racism’ today by many and how sexism is treated as a poor second. I find that disturbing.

[Kizzy]

That was because the Truth’s views on women were pretty extreme but non-extreme views simply questioning allegations of racism are repeatedly labelled racist on here. I made a definitive link between men dressing as women for fun and entertainment as people dressing as zulus for the same reasons but judging by the reactions of some they see that as different - what is the difference? There is no difference.

Women are and always have been a maligned group and treated as a second-class by many men worldwide despite making up 50% of the population, which is worse. I am not aware of any shouts of sexism when men dress as women but it’s very different if a white person dresses as a Zulu. It’s double standards.

It proves to me that the constant uproar about so-called racism has more to do with what is fashionable and PC and being seen to be doing the right thing than it does with any real concerns with equality as any such genuine concerns would not be so selective.

I don't wish to derail the thread with this and only add it a it is relevant to the discussion, I don't feel either topic should have to vie for positions of importance, nor do I think they do.
I was aboult to start a thread on the impact of sexist attitudes in the UK strangely, I look forward to your input in that.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-08-23/health-bosses-dragged-into-row-over-fundraisers-dress-sense/

[user104658]

It's a fancy dress costume, there is no need to make it political. It's just someone having a fun night out at a fancy dress party, they are not trying to oppress anyone.Heaven forbid that we not be OK with someone having a jolly good ol' time at the expense of others Alf.

[user104658]

I think this constant over-reaction to anything related to skin colour has undermined and devalued racism and it has lost its meaning.

I partially agree with that, but that's why I asked if people actually know the ins and outs of this specific issue. Not "general blackface" but the SPECIFIC anglo-zulu war, the war between the British Empire and the Zulu Nation, and why that SPECIFICALLY means that a British person "dressing up and doing a Zulu dance" for entertainment is seriously questionable. It's not a black-white thing. My opinion wouldn't be entirely the same if it was non-British people doing it, let's say a northern European country, where they are just as white as us... But... Y'know... Didn't engage in warfare against and defeat the Zulu by pumping them full of holes using vastly superior military equipment. Which the British Empire, specifically, did.

So maybe you're right. Maybe people jumping the gun and crying racism at every opportunity has lead people to be desensitised and ignorant to actual historical events that might deserve a little cultural sensitivity. Such as this one.

[Kizzy]

''I think this constant over-reaction to anything related to skin colour has undermined and devalued racism and it has lost its meaning.''

Or... some never gave a toss about racism in the first instance.
I have to say in relation to things being distasteful the intonation that racism is tolerable because those who you suggest make accusations of racism are sexist is the most bizarre excuse for prejudice I have ever heard Brillo.

[smudgie]

Having lived in both South Africa and Zimbabwe and our history lessons were full of the Southern African history I can still say I don't see it as racist.
The British were at war with the Zulu and did indeed kill many, but they also made their peace over the years.
The Zulu tribe also killed many and massacred innocents from other tribes.
That is in the past.
Celebrating what great warriors they were and dressing in their traditional dress
Could be seen as a celebration of them rather than racist, depends on your mindset I suppose.
It is fancy dress in a parade by one of seven historic groups.
I would be more concerned that people feel they have to hide our part in the history of the world. Good or bad.

[Marsh.]

That was because the Truth’s views on women were pretty extreme but non-extreme views simply questioning allegations of racism are repeatedly labelled racist on here. I made a definitive link between men dressing as women for fun and entertainment as people dressing as zulus for the same reasons but judging by the reactions of some they see that as different - what is the difference? There is no difference.

Women are and always have been a maligned group and treated as a second-class by many men worldwide despite making up 50% of the population, which is worse. I am not aware of any shouts of sexism when men dress as women but it’s very different if a white person dresses as a Zulu. It’s double standards.

It proves to me that the constant uproar about so-called racism has more to do with what is fashionable and PC and being seen to be doing the right thing than it does with any real concerns with equality as any such genuine concerns would not be so selective.

If you can explain how a man dressing as a woman, or a woman dressing as a man is sexist or at all comparable to blackface then you'll have a discussion.

As it is, you're taking an unrelated topic, and warping it to make a point about something else.

Note: Using the term PC fifty times a day does not give your posts more validity.

[Marsh.]

Having lived in both South Africa and Zimbabwe and our history lessons were full of the Southern African history I can still say I don't see it as racist.
The British were at war with the Zulu and did indeed kill many, but they also made their peace over the years.
The Zulu tribe also killed many and massacred innocents from other tribes.
That is in the past.
Celebrating what great warriors they were and dressing in their traditional dress
Could be seen as a celebration of them rather than racist, depends on your mindset I suppose.
It is fancy dress in a parade by one of seven historic groups.
I would be more concerned that people feel they have to hide our part in the history of the world. Good or bad.

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

[smudgie]

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

I suppose it looks more authentic:shrug:
If there are actually Zulu people in Lewes offended by it then it should be stopped, but it appears not to be the case.
I would be obviously very anti "blacking up" if it was in any way meant to be derogatory.

[Brillopad]

Dressing in their traditional dress would be one thing I could just about see.

"Blacking up" would be another altogether I think.

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

[Shaun]

I was about to say "I can't believe we're hearing defences of blackface on TiBB in 2017" but... actually I can. :joker:

[user104658]

.
I have to say in relation to things being distasteful the intonation that racism is tolerable because those who you suggest make accusations of racism are sexist is the most bizarre excuse for prejudice I have ever heard Brillo.

This part is very true, I have to say. Like maybe if it was a random comparison once but, Brillo, it's your go-to thing whenever racism is mentioned and it's just... I don't know. It's somewhere way beyond a strawman argument.

Anyone: "Well, I think this could be seen as racist because..."

Brillo: "SOME PEOPLE ARE SEXIST."

"They are Brillo, that's true and a problem. But back to the actual topic being discussed..."

"OMG I can't believe you don't care about sexism??"


The only word for it is bizarre. Very similar to when The Truth used to come into every thread and say "OH YEAH well men have a high suicide rate and never get custody of the kids!"

... And you hated that.

[DemolitionRed]

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

[Niamh.]

This part is very true, I have to say. Like maybe if it was a random comparison once but, Brillo, it's your go-to thing whenever racism is mentioned and it's just... I don't know. It's somewhere way beyond a strawman argument.

Anyone: "Well, I think this could be seen as racist because..."

Brillo: "SOME PEOPLE ARE SEXIST."

"They are Brillo, that's true and a problem. But back to the actual topic being discussed..."

"OMG I can't believe you don't care about sexism??"


The only word for it is bizarre. Very similar to when The Truth used to come into every thread and say "OH YEAH well men have a high suicide rate and never get custody of the kids!"

... And you hated that.

100,000 babies dying

[Vicky.]

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

Nothing at all wrong with being black and proud, obviously. Everything to do with white people 'blacking up'. This is not a either - or thing. I don't think anyone has suggested ignoring the fact that Zulus were black? Its that white people painting on black faces is likely to be deemed offensive by a lot of people...even if a few Zulus do not find it offensive.

Your own drag example shows how 'womanface' is offensive to some. So surely it stands to reason that 'blackface' is offensive to some also. Not every woman would be offended by 'womanface' or equate it with sexism (I am somewhat conflicted on that matter actually..as I do not believe woman is a costume that can be just pulled on at will, its a biological reality. BUT, I still do enjoy drag shows, whilst acknowledging that some find them offensive and I do acknowledge that they tend to be quite sexist), in the same regard as not every black person would be offended by 'blackface' or equate it with racism.

Class politics is a bit of a minefield though generally, as obviously differing opinions exist on all sides as no one demographic is a hive mind. But blackface is regarded by most as totally unnecessary (the only defense of this each time it is brought up seems to be 'but a better costume'), offensive, and racist. As such, blackface is not accepted by most rational people.

Yes, some people do seem to get offended at every little thing. And this 'microagression!' 'safe space' and such cries are very OTT and attentionseeking in so many instances. I do not believe that this is an instance where people are just looking to be offended though. Not by a long shot.

[Brillopad]

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

Some commonsense.

[Vicky.]

Even with that huge paragraph, I admit I don't know much about Zulu people though tbh. So may be entirely off bat here. Blackface in general as part of a costume, is unacceptable.

[Marsh.]

Were zulus not black. Is black a dirty word then because that is how it sounds when people seem so concerned about even mentioning skin colour never mind recreating it for authenticity. What is wrong with people being black and proud rather than people sshhusing at the mere mention that zulus were black. So.

I find it all absurd.

I'm not surprised you find it all absurd because you keep completely misrepresenting what's being discussed.

Who said Zulus weren't black? Who said black is a dirty word? Who is offended at the mention of skin colour? Who said there was anything wrong with being black and proud?

Oh wait.... the actual discussion was about white people "blacking up", yes that was it.

[AnnieK]

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

This puts an interesting spin on it.

[Brillopad]

Even with that huge paragraph, I admit I don't know much about Zulu people though tbh. So may be entirely off bat here. Blackface in general as part of a costume, is unacceptable.

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

[Kizzy]

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

I would have thought that was screamingly obvious however the clue being of course it was 'the day of the dead'... :/

[Kizzy]

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

You've been watching 'White Chicks' haven't you?...

[Cherie]

But many black Zulu dancers and festival goers will blacken their face. Face blackening is a Zulu tradition of mysticism and magic. If white people understand those traditions and want to take part, should we stop them because its we think they are trying to impersonate a black person or because we don't think white people should join in with the mysticism and magic?

My nieces whitened their faces for 'Day of the Dead' in Mexico last year. They weren't trying to look like white people, they weren't taking the mickey or being disrespectful to white people; they were joining in with paying respect to the dead.

apparently so us whiteys can get our knickers in a twist over just about anything, the troupe leader is a Zulu he had no issue with it, but as usual we know better allegedly

[Niamh.]

So what about black people whitening-up - would you have a problem with that?

If not, why not? Shouldn’t that be a question some should ask themselves. It does feel that people either want to be offended or have been conditioned to be offended by PC.

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

[Marsh.]

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

:clap1:

Reason: better not say that

https://i.imgur.com/vmNhgqP.jpg?1

[Cherie]

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes :idc:

[GiRTh]

:clap2:are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

[Kizzy]

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes :idc:

Oh yes often I forget how much many many Irish love the English... they are almost passionate in their adoration.

[Niamh.]

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes :idc:

we mention it plenty tbf Cherie, there's only a bout a billion songs written about it etc I should know Gav used to play in a Trad band :laugh:

[Cherie]

Oh yes often I forget how much many many Irish love the English... they are almost passionate in their adoration.

Have you ever been to Ireland? the current generation don't have any issues with English people, so know what you are talking about before you say it. There may be some of the older generations in their 80s/90s who still hold a grudge

[Cherie]

we mention it plenty tbf Cherie, there's only a bout a billion songs written about it etc I should know Gav used to play in a Trad band :laugh:

no body cares about it now, all the songs that refer to it are from previous generations, I don't know any trad song recently written that refers to it :shrug:

[Marsh.]

the Irish were oppressed by the British and the whole country left to starve, we manage to get through a day without referring to the famine every 5 minutes :idc:

That's good, and I'm sure black people manage to get through a day without referring to slavery every 5 minutes.

But we're not talking about that are we. :idc:

[Vicky.]

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

Sorry but yeah. I had a huge paragraph written out attempting to go into class analysis and all sorts, but this is the easy to understand shorthand version of what I was waffling for ages about :laugh:

[Niamh.]

no body cares about it now, all the songs that refer to it are from previous generations, I don't know any trad song recently written that refers to it :shrug:

Ok but in this thread we're talking about a particular thing that was used to mock black people in the past, what you're comparing it to is in general if Irish people are ok with English people now considering our history, a fairer comparison would be to say would Irish people be offended if a British person used something awful they did to us back then now because we should be over it (I can't think of an example, sorry :laugh: ) Do you get what I mean?

[Kizzy]

Have you ever been to Ireland? the current generation don't have any issues with English people, so know what you are talking about before you say it. There may be some of the older generations in their 80s/90s who still hold a grudge

I have and I have Irish family roots too, you brought it up Cherie you can't dictate who comments on your posts either. If there are as you say those who hold a grudge regarding that why would it seem impossible that the Zulu would not also have a similar view on their suppression?

As you said one questioned was fine and I'm sure there would be plenty of Irish who would say the historic crimes of the English was fine now...and some not.

Is there a Sussex festival that depicts hordes of starving Irish?... No there isn't, why not?

[DemolitionRed]

I would have thought that was screamingly obvious however the clue being of course it was 'the day of the dead'... :/

Its tradition to whiten your face for Day of the Dead. Its tradition to blacken your face for the Zulu dance. One is to look like a ghost/skeleton and the other is to look like a magic man.

[Cherie]

Ok but in this thread we're talking about a particular thing that was used to mock black people in the past, what you're comparing it to is in general if Irish people are ok with English people now considering our history, a fairer comparison would be to say would Irish people be offended if a British person used something awful they did to us back then now because we should be over it (I can't think of an example, sorry :laugh: ) Do you get what I mean?

I do, but if it were an Irish person who was in charge, would we be offended, I don't think we would be in fairness

[Niamh.]

I do, but if it were an Irish person who was in charge, would we be offended, I don't think we would be in fairness

I think we would tbf :laugh: Depending on what it was I suppose

[Kizzy]

Its tradition to whiten your face for Day of the Dead. Its tradition to blacken your face for the Zulu dance. One is to look like a ghost/skeleton and the other is to look like a magic man.

The dead are the dead, Zulus are black.

[user104658]

Have you ever been to Ireland? the current generation don't have any issues with English people, so know what you are talking about before you say it. There may be some of the older generations in their 80s/90s who still hold a grudgeJust because they don't have issues with English people doesn't mean it would be fine? I don't have any issues with English people... My wife is an "English people" and therefore most of my extended family (as I don't have much family left myself) is English. I don't have issues with any of them.

I would have some pretty major issues an English person if they decided to dress up in a kilt and do a mock Highland fling, shouting "Och aye look at me I'm a Scotchman!"

[user104658]

apparently so us whiteys can get our knickers in a twist over just about anything, the troupe leader is a Zulu he had no issue with it, but as usual we know better allegedlySorry I wasn't aware that the troupe leader of an obscure festival somewhere in England had been declared spokesperson for all black Africans.

And just to pre empt the "well u aren't either"; I'm not the one claiming to speak for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of people who, like the troupe leader, are not bothered by it. I am saying that there are clearly plenty who will not be OK with it.

[Cherie]

Sorry I wasn't aware that the troupe leader of an obscure festival somewhere in England had been declared spokesperson for all black Africans.

And just to pre empt the "well u aren't either"; I'm not the one claiming to speak for everyone. I'm sure there are plenty of people who, like the troupe leader, are not bothered by it. I am saying that there are clearly plenty who will not be OK with it.

as the troupe leader is a Zulu I think he might be more entitled to say what is and isn't racist in his view? no he can't speak for everyone but it is interesting that he has no issues with it, is this just whites flagellating themselves for the sins of the forefathers it seems very in vogue at the moment?

[Kizzy]

as the troupe leader is a Zulu I think he might be more entitled to say what is and isn't racist in his view? no he can't speak for everyone but it is interesting that he has no issues with it, is this just whites flagellating themselves for the sins of the forefathers it seems very in vogue at the moment?

Let's revisit this for a moment...

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/03/lewes-bonfire-society-agrees-to-stop-blacking-up-in-annual-parade

[Cherie]

Let's revisit this for a moment...

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/03/lewes-bonfire-society-agrees-to-stop-blacking-up-in-annual-parade


Completely different article by the same media outlet, where is the truth?

[user104658]

Err hush Kizzy, the silly little Zulu man LOVES blackface how dare you suggest otherwise.

[user104658]

where is the truth?

He got banned for being sexist at Vicky remember...

[Kizzy]

From the same article...
'An effigy of Pope Paul V (d1621) is burnt by Cliffe Society and all the while torches and barrels burn and “rookies”, powerful agricultural bird scarers, are detonated in packed streets as rum, mead and the local Harvey’s ale flows. Eighty people were injured last year.'

It sounds delightful... :/
I'll stick to sparklers in the back garden with the kiddies.

[Brillopad]

are you seriously asking this? really? when have white people ever been oppressed by black people, ever? Black face was used by white people to mock and spread racial stereotypes, there's a history there that isn't there the other way around, that's why its offensive to black people, am i really explaining this to you?

Women have been and still are oppressed in many societies but we don’t make a fuss about men dressing as women. Nothing stereotypical or mocking about drag queens then. That is not only about history but about an unchallenged here and now. I am calling out those that have such blatant double standards.

So continue to explain if you feel the need.

[Kizzy]

Women have been and still are oppressed in many societies but we don’t make a fuss about men dressing as women. Nothing stereotypical or mocking about drag queens then. That is not only about history but about an unchallenged here and now. I am calling out those that have such blatant double standards.

So continue to explain if you feel the need.

I would stick to the topic or start a thread to discuss the oppression of women I will be glad to discuss that at length.

As it stand this is coming across a you simply hijacking this thread to suit your agenda.

[Brillopad]

I would stick to the topic or start a thread to discuss the oppression of women I will be glad to discuss that at length.

As it stand this is coming across a you simply hijacking this thread to suit your agenda.

And your thinking is always right of course. Think away.

[Kizzy]

And your thinking is always right of course. Think away.

Well yes naturally but that's off topic too isn't it?

[Brillopad]

Well yes naturally but that's off topic too isn't it?

As valid comparisons, or lack of, are relevant to point out double standards in any such discussions therefore render your comments invalid in my opinion.

[Kizzy]

As valid comparisons, or lack of, are relevant to point out double standards in any such discussions therefore render your comments invalid in my opinion.

Your initial presumption that this is a generational issue is this your example of fair and balanced view of the issue?
They rendered your comments invalid for me even before you flew of on your next tangent to be honest brillo.
Do you have a view on the actual topic at hand, while you're here?

[Brillopad]

Your initial presumption that this is a generational issue is this your example of fair and balanced view of the issue?
They rendered your comments invalid for me even before you flew of on your next tangent to be honest brillo.
Do you have a view on the actual topic at hand, while you're here?

I have previously expressed it. I see nothing wrong with it especially when other suppressed groups are able to get a bit of perspective and let more minor things go over their heads.

I am usually suspicious of those that make a huge fuss about something small and question their motives for doing so - it smacks of control.

And as has been mentioned previously in several threads the constant over-reactions waters down more serious issues - rather like the boy that cried wolf. In the long-term it can have a harmful effect and for those who can’t see that - again I question their motives.

[Alf]

Well yes naturally but that's off topic too isn't it?So is that post by you and so is this post by me.

[Kizzy]

I have previously expressed it. I see nothing wrong with it especially when other suppressed groups are able to get a bit of perspective and let more minor things go over their heads.

I am usually suspicious of those that make a huge fuss about something small and question their motives for doing so - it smacks of control.

And as has been mentioned previously in several threads the constant over-reactions waters down more serious issues - rather like the boy that cried wolf. In the long-term it can have a harmful effect and for those who can’t see that - again I question their motives.

Who is this suppressed group?
Why do you consider it 'something small'?, it may not be a serious issue to you, yet you don't speak for everyone.
What are your motives for wanting to detract from this issue?

[Brillopad]

Who is this suppressed group?
Why do you consider it 'something small'?, it may not be a serious issue to you, yet you don't speak for everyone.
What are your motives for wanting to detract from this issue?

Er, women. We put up with more minor things constantly, for instance sexist jokes, as long as they don’t go too far. We don’t generally make such a fuss about every little thing as I believe we are not so agenda driven in our motives. There are always exceptions, but women have, and still do, put up with a lot over the years.

I have often drawn attention to how one ism gets more ‘attention’ on here than others as such comparisons are relevant when pointing out double standards.

[user104658]

I don't think sexism is much of a problem on here, though, not like race issues are, so that's probably why it comes up less? I can only think of one member who was clearly sexist and he's now been permanently banned for that. Well... OK... There's also arista but he appears to be MIA too (and I don't think anyone took much of what he said seriously anyway).

Obviously, equality of the sexes is still a major issue globally but no one disagrees about that so there's not as much to discuss. I think it's pretty much that simple.

There's no one, or very few people, here arguing that sexism is OK or being sexist on the forum... In fact I'd say TiBB is pretty "gender blind" and that's one of the major positives of the site.

[user104658]

The point is, really, that sexism is not what this thread is about and so, even if the point is valid, posting about it here seems designed to detract from the thread topic more than anything else? Even if you're right, and one issue does get more attention than the other, that has nothing to do with the topic of this particular thread... It's a totally different discussion that could have its own thread.

[chuff me dizzy]

Women have been and still are oppressed in many societies but we don’t make a fuss about men dressing as women. Nothing stereotypical or mocking about drag queens then. That is not only about history but about an unchallenged here and now. I am calling out those that have such blatant double standards.

So continue to explain if you feel the need.

Well said Brillo !! :clap1:

[arista]

Nice to see you Back
CHUFF

[chuff me dizzy]

Nice to see you Back
CHUFF

Hiya :wavey: just reading through this thread, and my conclusion is people need to stop being so petty, stop sitting at computer or watching tv waiting to pounce on a bit of bloody humour, lighten up, get a grip and a bloody life ,miserable set of buggers without a sense of humour ,no one can see a joke now, what a miserable world we live in when people sit waiting to pounch on a bit of fun ,so glad my youth was spent in the none PC mad world

[Tom4784]

Dressing as one is fine. Blackface isn't. /Thread

The thread really should have ended here tbh.

[Tom4784]

Hiya :wavey: just reading through this thread, and my conclusion is people need to stop being so petty, stop sitting at computer or watching tv waiting to pounce on a bit of bloody humour, lighten up, get a grip and a bloody life ,miserable set of buggers without a sense of humour ,no one can see a joke now, what a miserable world we live in when people sit waiting to pounch on a bit of fun ,so glad my youth was spent in the none PC mad world

You find blackface funny?

[chuff me dizzy]

You find blackface funny?

Remind me never to have a night out with you fgs :bored::facepalm:

[Tom4784]

Is that a yes?

[chuff me dizzy]

Is that a yes?

I don't know, you tell me :shrug:

[Macie Lightfoot]

I love the implication that nights out with chuff involve blackface :love: never change hun!

[Tom4784]

I don't know, you tell me :shrug:

I'd assume so, since you seemed to downplay it as a joke in that post and that people who were offended by blackface should 'stop being so petty' and 'lighten up' (ooop at that choice of words).

Who are you to decide what offends people or not? Especially considering that, as a white person, it's ludicrous for you to decide and dictate what might be offensive to someone of a different ethnicity.

Perhaps you should take a look into the history of Blackface, maybe then you'll understand why it's so offensive.

[chuff me dizzy]

I love the implication that nights out with chuff involve blackface :love: never change hun!

I will never,ever change Macie ..... nothing like having a good sense of humour and remembering we are only here for a short time so enjoy life and LAUGH a lot, God Im so glad Im not a miserable PC freak who's life revolves around being a miserable cow :joker:

[chuff me dizzy]

I'd assume so, since you seemed to downplay it as a joke in that post and that people who were offended by blackface should 'stop being so petty' and 'lighten up' (ooop at that choice of words).

Who are you to decide what offends people or not? Especially considering that, as a white person, it's ludicrous for you to decide and dictate what might be offensive to someone of a different ethnicity.

Perhaps you should take a look into the history of Blackface, maybe then you'll understand why it's so offensive.

And vica versa

[Tom4784]

And vica versa

That makes no sense since I'm not telling anyone that they should or shouldn't be offended while you are telling people that they shouldn't be.

Context shouldn't be a difficult concept to understand, Chuff.

[chuff me dizzy]

That makes no sense since I'm not telling anyone that they should or shouldn't be offended while you are telling people that they shouldn't be.

Context shouldn't be a difficult concept to understand, Chuff.

You said " Who are you to decide what offends people or not? " and I said " and visa versa" is that so hard for you to understand ? I have as much right to tell people to lighten up and get a bloody grip as you have to tell them to march on Westminster about it

[Tom4784]

You said " Who are you to decide what offends people or not? " and I said " and visa versa" is that so hard for you to understand ? I have as much right to tell people to lighten up and get a bloody grip as you have to tell them to march on Westminster about it

You should read posts more carefully, I never once said that people should be offended by this which would be the 'vice versa' to you telling people that they shouldn't be offended. I've only defended people's right to take offense, something you are trying to deny them. I'm just offering context and empathy as to why people find blackface offensive.

I never said people should 'march on Westminster about it' either. You should stick to what people actually said instead of imagining what you wanted them to say.

[chuff me dizzy]

You should read posts more carefully, I never once said that people should be offended by this which would be the 'vice versa' to you telling people that they shouldn't be offended. I've only defended people's right to take offense, something you are trying to deny them. I'm just offering context and empathy as to why people find blackface offensive.

I never said people should 'march on Westminster about it' either. You should stick to what people actually said instead of imagining what you wanted them to say.

And I defend their right to laugh it off and lighten up

[Tom4784]

And I defend their right to laugh it off and lighten up

Well that's not true, is it?

Hiya :wavey: just reading through this thread, and my conclusion is people need to stop being so petty, stop sitting at computer or watching tv waiting to pounce on a bit of bloody humour, lighten up, get a grip and a bloody life ,miserable set of buggers without a sense of humour ,no one can see a joke now, what a miserable world we live in when people sit waiting to pounch on a bit of fun ,so glad my youth was spent in the none PC mad world

You weren't defending anything, you were simply telling people not to be offended, this post is, in your own words, your own conclusion

[chuff me dizzy]

Well that's not true, is it?



You weren't defending anything, you were simply telling people not to be offended, this post is, in your own words, your own conclusion

I defend my right to have a sense of humour, you should try it one time you will feel liberated :cheer2:

[Tom4784]

I defend my right to have a sense of humour, you should try it one time you will feel liberated :cheer2:

You are free to find blackface funny all you like and everyone else is allowed to comment on it.

Opinions are a two way street.

[chuff me dizzy]

You are free to find blackface funny all you like and everyone else is allowed to comment on it.

Opinions are a two way street.

I did allow peoples comments ( :conf: ) but I didn't agree with most of them so voiced my opinion,its what you do on a forum :joker:

[Niamh.]

Women have been and still are oppressed in many societies but we don’t make a fuss about men dressing as women. Nothing stereotypical or mocking about drag queens then. That is not only about history but about an unchallenged here and now. I am calling out those that have such blatant double standards.

So continue to explain if you feel the need.

Do you find drag queens offensive? I've never met a woman who does but carry on making up s**t that doesn't exist to try and make your views sound less racist if it makes you feel better

[Kazanne]

I am going to shave my head,pour some syrup on it , put a stick up my arse and dress as a toffee apple . Apologies to all apples who maybe offended.

[Niamh.]

I am going to shave my head,pour some syrup on it , put a stick up my arse and dress as a toffee apple . Apologies to all apples who maybe offended.

whatever floats your boat :umm2:

[user104658]

I am going to shave my head,pour some syrup on it , put a stick up my arse and dress as a toffee apple .

Bet you won't actually do it.

[Kazanne]

whatever floats your boat :umm2:

Well it all seems to be going a bit too far now,we did a zulu tribe in our local carnival a few years back, the kids loved it the crowd loved it nothing racist was raised,just a good happy fun day,people just seem to want to whinge over everything and everything,and for what it's worth I think some of the comments to brillo are offensive,but hey ho,that's life.

[Kazanne]

Bet you won't actually do it.

I might have trouble with the stick to be fair :laugh:

[Vicky.]

can we not turn this thread into a weird sexual fetish one please. I have just ate

[user104658]

can we not turn this thread into a weird sexual fetish one please. I have just atePlus there's already been one of those today...

[Niamh.]

Well it all seems to be going a bit too far now,we did a zulu tribe in our local carnival a few years back, the kids loved it the crowd loved it nothing racist was raised,just a good happy fun day,people just seem to want to whinge over everything and everything,and for what it's worth I think some of the comments to brillo are offensive,but hey ho,that's life.

PC gone mad

[Kazanne]

PC gone mad

You got it,spot on :hehe:

[Brillopad]

Do you find drag queens offensive? I've never met a woman who does but carry on making up s**t that doesn't exist to try and make your views sound less racist if it makes you feel better

Not particularly because I am not looking to find offence in every little thing.

Another one thinking they have the right to label people based on very little information. Whatever. If it makes you feel better. Doesn’t make it true though! :shrug:

[Niamh.]

Not particularly because I am not looking to find offence in every little thing.

Another one thinking they have the right to label people based on very little information. Whatever. If it makes you feel better. Doesn’t make it true though! :shrug:

PC gone mad

[Brillopad]

PC gone mad


Yep. PC will be dead in the water in a few years, if not before. :hehe:

[user104658]

Yep. PC will be dead in the water in a few years, if not before. :hehe:That doesn't even make sense.

[Brillopad]

That doesn't even make sense.

People are sick of it all. With time more people will ignore it and dismiss it for the controlling behaviour it is.

[Cherie]

Is there an amnesty this weekend and we can call people names and give them labels, why didn't anyone tell me :amazed:

[user104658]

People are sick of it all. With time more people will ignore it and dismiss it for the controlling behaviour it is.But then that will be the new PC. It doesn't have a set definition.

[Brillopad]

But then that will be the new PC. It doesn't have a set definition.

They won’t be trying to intimidate people into silence, they will just be ignoring those that do. PC will have less impact as people stop allowing it to control them expressing their concerns/opinions.

[Brillopad]

Is there an amnesty this weekend and we can call people names and give them labels, why didn't anyone tell me :amazed:

It only works one way apparently. :bored:

[user104658]

They won’t be trying to intimidate people into silence, they will just be ignoring those that do. PC will have less impact as people stop allowing it to control them expressing their concerns/opinions.Does that apply to feminism / sexism too, then?

[Marsh.]

It's hardly "calling names". It's not as though someone's going around being childish calling people twats and dickheads.

[Jamie89]

Women have been and still are oppressed in many societies but we don’t make a fuss about men dressing as women. Nothing stereotypical or mocking about drag queens then. That is not only about history but about an unchallenged here and now. I am calling out those that have such blatant double standards.

So continue to explain if you feel the need.

I really don't think drag is comparable to blackface or has anything to do with sexism. First of all women as well as men perform in drag as the opposite sexes (it's just drag queens are far more popular than drag kings... they're still a legitimate thing though), but mainly because for a lot of people drag is an expression of rebellion against gender stereotypes and is therefore liberating for both sexes, it really doesn't have anything at all to do with 'mocking' the other sex, it's about mocking the ways in which society expects those sexes to behave (and I've seen a lot of drag shows and honestly a lot of them don't even try and hide the fact they're a man in a dress with some of the stuff they come out with :laugh: ), and also there just isn't the historical context to compare it to blackface, it hasn't been used as a repressive thing (quite the opposite), and it's not insulting towards a group of people. You link women being oppressed by men with men dressing up as women but even though it's women being impersonated, it's not women that are the 'targets' of it, which makes it very different.

[smudgie]

Nice to see you Back
CHUFF

Nice to see you back too Arista.:dance:

[Cherie]

It's hardly "calling names". It's not as though someone's going around being childish calling people twats and dickheads.

Excuse me, calling someone racist, and I personally have been called a troll :hmph: for which I have been infracted for doing myself previously???? the troll comment was from a moderator.... :laugh: honestly the double standards and how the rules are applied on TiBB are very random to say the least.

[Marsh.]

Excuse me, calling someone racist, and I personally have been called a troll :hmph: for which I have been infracted for doing myself previously???? the troll comment was from a moderator.... [emoji23] honestly the double standards and how the rules are applied on TiBB are very random to say the least.
:omgno: Well racist is fairdos in my opinion. If someone feels that racist views are being shared.

Troll is different though. :think:

[user104658]

Excuse me, calling someone racist, and I personally have been called a troll :hmph: for which I have been infracted for doing myself previously???? the troll comment was from a moderator.... [emoji23] honestly the double standards and how the rules are applied on TiBB are very random to say the least.So calling a post that is, in someone's genuine opinion, a racist post "racist" is now "name calling"?

But what if you do think it is racist?

Is one then supposed to quietly think it internally but not say / type it out loud, because doing so is "name calling" and offensive?

There's a term for that I think. Oh yes... "Political correctness". It works both ways, I'm afraid, and people who want to see an "end to political correctness" are going to find themselves being called out for their views a lot more than they would like, it seems.

[Cherie]

:omgno: Well racist is fairdos in my opinion. If someone feels that racist views are being shared.

Troll is different though. :think:

you may call me by my formal name now Mrs C Troll.:hee:

[Marsh.]

I really don't think drag is comparable to blackface or has anything to do with sexism. First of all women as well as men perform in drag as the opposite sexes (it's just drag queens are far more popular than drag kings... they're still a legitimate thing though), but mainly because for a lot of people drag is an expression of rebellion against gender stereotypes and is therefore liberating for both sexes, it really doesn't have anything at all to do with 'mocking' the other sex, it's about mocking the ways in which society expects those sexes to behave (and I've seen a lot of drag shows and honestly a lot of them don't even try and hide the fact they're a man in a dress with some of the stuff they come out with [emoji23] ), and also there just isn't the historical context to compare it to blackface, it hasn't been used as a repressive thing (quite the opposite), and it's not insulting towards a group of people. You link women being oppressed by men with men dressing up as women but even though it's women being impersonated, it's not women that are the 'targets' of it, which makes it very different.
Perfectly explained Jamie.

[Cherie]

So calling a post that is, in someone's genuine opinion, a racist post "racist" is now "name calling"?

But what if you do think it is racist?

Is one then supposed to quietly think it internally but not say / type it out loud, because doing so is "name calling" and offensive?

There's a term for that I think. Oh yes... "Political correctness". It works both ways, I'm afraid, and people who want to see an "end to political correctness" are going to find themselves being called out for their views a lot more than they would like, it seems.

well its fine coming from you, though having said that you were fully sure you would be banned today, but here you are, when it comes from the moderating team it sets a tone, and they can't really argue about members using labels if they are happy to do so themselves, so I shall be slinging a few names round as I see fit in future now the path has been cleared for me to do so.

[user104658]

For what it's worth Cherie I don't think you're a troll... You just seem really frustrated and pissed off ALL of the time pretty much, and that leads you to doing the daft things like "laughing emojis" at other peoples back handed insult posts, which comes across as snide and could be misconstrued as trollishness.

I think you're just genuinely annoyed, which is fair enough.

[user104658]

well its fine coming from you, though having said that you were fully sure you would be banned today, but here you are, when it comes from the moderating team it sets a tone, and they can't really argue about members using labels if they are happy to do so themselves, so I shall be slinging a few names round as I see fit in future now the path has been cleared for me to do so.I won't disagree that the rules are somewhat unclear. I (and I'm sure others) have had infractions for far less than last night's thread; I didn't think it would be just me getting an infraction but pretty much everyone invited loved. I was right that the posts would all be removed, though, 2/3 of the thread was gone when I got up this morning :shrug:.

But I would imagine this is a pretty tough forum to moderate these days, so...

[Cherie]

I won't disagree that the rules are somewhat unclear. I (and I'm sure others) have had infractions for far less than last night's thread; I didn't think it would be just me getting an infraction but pretty much everyone invited loved. I was right that the posts would all be removed, though, 2/3 of the thread was gone when I got up this morning :shrug:.

But I would imagine this is a pretty tough forum to moderate these days, so...



hardly, there is no one left to moderate

[Brillopad]

I really don't think drag is comparable to blackface or has anything to do with sexism. First of all women as well as men perform in drag as the opposite sexes (it's just drag queens are far more popular than drag kings... they're still a legitimate thing though), but mainly because for a lot of people drag is an expression of rebellion against gender stereotypes and is therefore liberating for both sexes, it really doesn't have anything at all to do with 'mocking' the other sex, it's about mocking the ways in which society expects those sexes to behave (and I've seen a lot of drag shows and honestly a lot of them don't even try and hide the fact they're a man in a dress with some of the stuff they come out with :laugh: ), and also there just isn't the historical context to compare it to blackface, it hasn't been used as a repressive thing (quite the opposite), and it's not insulting towards a group of people. You link women being oppressed by men with men dressing up as women but even though it's women being impersonated, it's not women that are the 'targets' of it, which makes it very different.

I must admit I haven’t heard of drag kings. New one on me.

I value your opinion which is well expressed without feeling the need to insult and I hear what you are saying I just find it difficult to agree.

What I find frustrating is that it seems that many people insist on seeing what was not intended to be offensive as repressive and insulting. Surely when wearing a costume in an event like this people want to look as authentic as possible. Zulus were black, a white face would look rather silly. I feel that to pretend otherwise would be insulting. Surely context is the key here but it’s being completely ignored

I don’t believe anyone is trying to insult zulus here and I’m sure most know that so why do they get so defensive. Targeting suggests an intent to insult but I don’t see that here and I find it strange that others do.

We all know how crazy and OTT PC can be and many consider this a good example of that in my opinion.

[user104658]

well I let you get away with it a few times, enough is enough :smug:

I am glad you are enjoying it, enjoy the time with your kids it is precious :love: I loved being at home with my kidsThey're at school most of the time then I'm at work 2 evenings and all weekend. I'm enjoying the time with the PS4 and Netflix :laugh2:

[Jamie89]

I must admit I haven’t heard of drag kings. New one on me.

I value your opinion which is well expressed without feeling the need to insult and I hear what you are saying I just find it difficult to agree.

What I find frustrating is that it seems that many people insist on seeing what was not intended to be offensive as repressive and insulting. Surely when wearing a costume in an event like this people want to look as authentic as possible. Zulus were black, a white face would look rather silly. I feel that to pretend otherwise would be insulting. Surely context is the key here but it’s being completely ignored

I don’t believe anyone is trying to insult zulus here and I’m sure most know that so why do they get so defensive. Targeting suggests an intent to insult but I don’t see that here and I find it strange that others do.

We all know how crazy and OTT PC can be and many consider this a good example of that in my opinion.

I don't know enough about the Zulu thing tbh (I just wanted to jump in on the drag thing because I do know about that :spin: ) but my general view is that traditionally with blackface, the intent of it was to enforce stereotypes and mock black people, and we have such a bad history in how black people have been treated (which blackface played a part in because of those things) that I suppose any reminder of it or alternative form of it might be insulting, even if that particular form of it isn't intended to be so, because of the history of it. Personally I'm not usually offended by something unless I think there's an intent behind it, but then I've never been the target of racist mockery either so I don't know really, because even if the intent isn't there with the Zulu impersonations, the connotations still are, and I can't tell someone that has been affected by racism that they can't be offended by something that appears to be racist (even if it isn't meant to be).

[chuff me dizzy]

Well it all seems to be going a bit too far now,we did a zulu tribe in our local carnival a few years back, the kids loved it the crowd loved it nothing racist was raised,just a good happy fun day,people just seem to want to whinge over everything and everything,and for what it's worth I think some of the comments to brillo are offensive,but hey ho,that's life.

:clap1:

[Niamh.]

Excuse me, calling someone racist, and I personally have been called a troll :hmph: for which I have been infracted for doing myself previously???? the troll comment was from a moderator.... :laugh: honestly the double standards and how the rules are applied on TiBB are very random to say the least.

The thread is about whether something is racist or not but we're not allowed say we think someones opinion is racist in a thread about whether something is racist or not.....bizarre logic. Who are the PC brigade again?

[Brillopad]

The thread is about whether something is racist or not but we're not allowed say we think someones opinion is racist in a thread about whether something is racist or not.....bizarre logic. Who are the PC brigade again?

But some were not just saying that were they, they were repeatedly calling me racist, not my opinions, but me. If I had insulted someone like that I would have been banned. To deny the double standards is pointless. Please show me where I behaved like that.

[user104658]

But some were not just saying that were they, they were repeatedly calling me racist, not my opinions, but me. If I had insulted someone like that I would have been banned. To deny the double standards is pointless. Please show me where I behaved like that.Are you trying to say that people with racist opinions aren't racist? :think: I'm not sure if your grasping the definition of "a racist".

"A person with racist opinions" pretty much covers it.

[Brillopad]

Are you trying to say that people with racist opinions aren't racist? :think: I'm not sure if your grasping the definition of "a racist".

"A person with racist opinions" pretty much covers it.

Not at all biased with your OTT controlling PC opinions then. You interpret according to your own agenda. Convenient rather than reasonable.

[Withano]

Not at all biased with your OTT controlling PC opinions then. You interpret according to your own agenda. Convenient rather than reasonable.

Whilst we're here, I don't think you're grasping PC-ness either. Calling someone a racist? Not particularly PC. claiming you can't say the word racist cos it's mean? Super PC.

[Brillopad]

I see the sharks are circling.

[Niamh.]

Why are you asking me to show you proof of something as if I accused you of something and need to back it up?

[Brillopad]

Why are you asking me to show you proof of something as if I accused you of something and need to back it up?

Oh I forgot, on here those on the left don’t need proof of anything - their word is gospel. :bored:

[Withano]

Oh I forgot, on here those on the left don’t need proof of anything - their word is gospel. :bored:

Tbh, I remember about a year ago, (when people first started to get weary around your posts) that I was talking about not feeling comfortable calling anybody a racist on a place such as this, because I don't think a post can ever be truly reflective of a person.

But you've probably made about 3 or 400 dodgy posts since then. Now I'm more thinking along the lines of 'you probably are a bit racist, but you probably are entirely unaware of this'. It's just a few hundred too many dodgy posts I think.

[Brillopad]

I can smell the venom.

[chuff me dizzy]

[/B]


hardly, there is no one left to moderate

We all know why Cherie :wink:

[Brillopad]

We all know why Cherie :wink:

We do indeed. Say it at your peril though.

[chuff me dizzy]

We do indeed. Say it at your peril though.

Ive said it, but it falls on deaf ears Brillo ,and the result on season is there for all to see

[jet]

We all know why Cherie :wink:

So many terrific posters avoid this forum like the plaque. It's truly unpleasant when the gang circle certain posters to get their jollies.

[chuff me dizzy]

So many terrific posters avoid this forum like the plaque. It's truly unpleasant when the gang circle certain posters to get their jollies.

Got it in one !! pack attacking cowards

[Brillopad]

Ive said it, but it falls on deaf ears Brillo ,and the result on season is there for all to see

Unfortunately the deaf ears are part of the problem. The scales will always be unbalanced.

[chuff me dizzy]

Unfortunately the deaf ears are part of the problem. The scales will always be unbalanced.

They will rue the day they let all the good posters drift away and kept the riff raff

[Brillopad]

They will rue the day they let all the good posters drift away and kept the riff raff


I reacon there will be a lot of silent cheers at that. :hee:

[user104658]

So many terrific posters avoid this forum like the plaque. It's truly unpleasant when the gang circle certain posters to get their jollies.Who is the "gang", precisely, jet? As I recall, last night it was you, Brillo, Cherie and perhaps a couple of others "against" just me in a thread? All laughing away at each other's posts and patting each other on the back :idc:. Not that the entire bunch of you are really much of a challenge but, still, if we're talking gang-handedness, I think a head count is in order? There are more "of you" in this thread, again, but I'm sure you all feel "ganged up on".

I guess it's quality over quantity :shrug:.

[user104658]

Seriously, the irony in this thread :joker:. Gang-handed filth.

[Brillopad]

Who is the "gang", precisely, jet? As I recall, last night it was you, Brillo, Cherie and perhaps a couple of others "against" just me in a thread? All laughing away at each other's posts and patting each other on the back :idc:. Not that the entire bunch of you are really much of a challenge but, still, if we're talking gang-handedness, I think a head count is in order? There are more "of you" in this thread, again, but I'm sure you all feel "ganged up on".

I guess it's quality over quantity :shrug:.

You have the establishment behind you, the knowledge of which gives you ‘courage’. So much for quality.

[chuff me dizzy]

I reacon there will be a lot of silent cheers at that. :hee:

Thats what makes me different to them ......I dare say it, Im bow to no one and expect no one to bow to me ,Im my own person

[user104658]

You have the establishment behind go which gives you ‘courage’. So much for quality.Bollocks Brillo, one of the ADMINS made a thread in clear support of your views less than a week ago and I've had plenty of posts deleted, infractions and bans... I just don't moan about them like some people so you assume I don't get them.

Frankly... If you didn't have Admin support there's absolutely no way you would still be here at all.

[user104658]

Thats what makes me different to them ......I dare say it, Im bow to no one and expect no one to bow to me ,Im my own personWhat a hero :laugh2:

[jet]

Who is the "gang", precisely, jet? As I recall, last night it was you, Brillo, Cherie and perhaps a couple of others "against" just me in a thread? All laughing away at each other's posts and patting each other on the back :idc:. Not that the entire bunch of you are really much of a challenge but, still, if we're talking gang-handedness, I think a head count is in order? There are more "of you" in this thread, again, but I'm sure you all feel "ganged up on".

I guess it's quality over quantity :shrug:.

What nonsense. I wasn't on here last night.

[user104658]

So many terrific posters avoid this forum like the plaque.

There are many great posters who have been avoiding it since it became a hateful, racist free-for-all and if the staff, who apparently "back my side", had actually nipped it in the bud 18 months+ ago most of them, on both "sides", would probably still be here. But it was allowed to fester into this mess and it's far too late now, so yeah, mostly what you have left is a few people who haven't totally given up and are happy enough with "circling" the racist posts to make the people posting them feel as uncomfortable as they possibly can. Because racists SHOULD feel uncomfortable for their views.

[Brillopad]

Bollocks Brillo, one of the ADMINS made a thread in clear support of your views less than a week ago and I've had plenty of posts deleted, infractions and bans... I just don't moan about them like some people so you assume I don't get them.

Frankly... If you didn't have Admin support there's absolutely no way you would still be here at all.

Bollocks. Please let us into your secrets for reading everyone’s mind. Do they all pm the master telling him how awful Brillo is. Or is such knowledge coming directly from someone in the know.

[user104658]

What nonsense. I wasn't on here last night.The night before, them, whichever night it was when you were desperately trying to claim not to have sectarian bias.

[Brillopad]

There are many great posters who have been avoiding it since it became a hateful, racist free-for-all and if the staff, who apparently "back my side", had actually nipped it in the bud 18 months+ ago most of them, on both "sides", would probably still be here. But it was allowed to fester into this mess and it's far too late now, so yeah, mostly what you have left is a few people who haven't totally given up and are happy enough with "circling" the racist posts to make the people posting them feel as uncomfortable as they possibly can. Because racists SHOULD feel uncomfortable for their views.

When I started here I exchanged some pms with one such great poster on the verge of leaving who had no problems with me, just the one-sided nature of this forum - so stop boring people with your ‘it’s all Brillo’s fault’. Total crap.

[jet]

There are many great posters who have been avoiding it since it became a hateful, racist free-for-all and if the staff, who apparently "back my side", had actually nipped it in the bud 18 months+ ago most of them, on both "sides", would probably still be here. But it was allowed to fester into this mess and it's far too late now, so yeah, mostly what you have left is a few people who haven't totally given up and are happy enough with "circling" the racist posts to make the people posting them feel as uncomfortable as they possibly can. Because racists SHOULD feel uncomfortable for their views.

Well perhaps you should go somewhere you can find real racists and do your bit, there are none here.

[user104658]

Bollocks. Please let us into your secrets for reading everyone’s mind. Do they all pm the master telling him how awful Brillo is. Or is such knowledge coming directly from someone in the know.It's called a deduction. You don't have mod support - you know that yourself - and yet you get away with racially hateful comment in post after post relatively free from any repercussions, from my perspective, despite what you have to say about others getting "special treatment".

The only reasonable explanation is that they're being told not to :idc:.

[jet]

The night before, them, whichever night it was when you were desperately trying to claim not to have sectarian bias.

That old sectarian chestnut again. I'll never support the IRA and Sinn Fein murderers who killed my friends over those that didn't no matter how much you seem to want me to.

[Brillopad]

It's called a deduction. You don't have mod support - you know that yourself - and yet you get away with racially hateful comment in post after post relatively free from any repercussions, from my perspective, despite what you have to say about others getting "special treatment".

The only reasonable explanation is that they're being told not to :idc:.

What racially hateful comments , my ‘hateful’ language isn’t a patch on yours.

[user104658]

When I started here I exchanged some pms with one such great poster on the verge of leaving who had no problems with me, just the one-sided nature of this forum.How can you still be claiming that it's one sided when you have more backup than opposition in this thread at this very moment?

Like I said, I can only guess it's quality over quantity. Jet plodding about saying "Brillo isn't racist tho" and tough chuff being tough chuff isn't much use, I get that, but still, you can't claim not to have backup. There are at least 3 or 4 others usually happy to jump in and post their little :clap1:'s and :fan:'s to back you up.

[Brillopad]

It's called a deduction. You don't have mod support - you know that yourself - and yet you get away with racially hateful comment in post after post relatively free from any repercussions, from my perspective, despite what you have to say about others getting "special treatment".

The only reasonable explanation is that they're being told not to :idc:.

Told not to by whom - who the hell do you think I am - The queen of bl**dy Sheba. I’ve heard it all now. Is this what this is all about some weird notion I am getting some kind of bizarre preferential treatment, you could have fooled me. That makes no sense to anyone but you apparently. Done with you.

[user104658]

What racially hateful comments , my ‘hateful’ language isn’t a patch on yours.Only if you consider not being afraid to call racism, racism, "hateful". I consider it a statement of fact. I'm sure you consider your rants about Muslims etc. to be "facts" too but... Umm... That's because you're a bit racist. That old sectarian chestnut again. I'll never support the IRA and Sinn Fein murderers who killed my friends over those that didn't no matter how much you seem to want me to.I honestly couldn't care less who or what you support, jet.

[Brillopad]

How can you still be claiming that it's one sided when you have more backup than opposition in this thread at this very moment?

Like I said, I can only guess it's quality over quantity. Jet plodding about saying "Brillo isn't racist tho" and tough chuff being tough chuff isn't much use, I get that, but still, you can't claim not to have backup. There are at least 3 or 4 others usually happy to jump in and post their little :clap1:'s and :fan:'s to back you up.

There are other posters who speak their minds and when they see something they consider distasteful they speak up. That’s a good thing even if it doesn’t suit you.

[jet]

Only if you consider not being afraid to call racism, racism, "hateful". I consider it a statement of fact. I'm sure you consider your rants about Muslims etc. to be "facts" too but... Umm... That's because you're a bit racist. I honestly couldn't care less who or what you support, jet.

Then why have you brought my 'sectarian bias' up twice in the last 3 days out of the blue? Did you get pleasure from reminding me of my losses?

[Brillopad]

Then why have you brought my 'sectarian bias' up twice in the last 3 days out of the blue? Did you get pleasure from reminding me of my losses?

He’s not worth it Jet.

[user104658]

Then why have you brought my 'sectarian bias' up twice in the last 3 days out of the blue? Did you get pleasure from reminding me of my losses?Because the fact that you felt wronged and upset in that thread is the main reason that you now feel the need to jump to the defense of someone else who you feel is in a similar position, even though it really isn't.

As it happens, I do appreciate why you have a bias relating to those specific issues, it is completely understandable, anyone with such personal involvement would. I would have far less issue with Brillo's views and xenophobia if, for example, she had lost family to Islamic extremism.

But as far as I can tell she hasn't, she just likes to froth over tabloid headlines and her own racist, small minded assumptions and subject everyone else to them as well.

[Marsh.]

Not at all biased with your OTT controlling PC opinions then. You interpret according to your own agenda. Convenient rather than reasonable.

I see the sharks are circling.

Oh I forgot, on here those on the left don’t need proof of anything - their word is gospel. :bored:

I can smell the venom.

We all know why Cherie :wink:

We do indeed. Say it at your peril though.

So many terrific posters avoid this forum like the plaque. It's truly unpleasant when the gang circle certain posters to get their jollies.

Got it in one !! pack attacking cowards

They will rue the day they let all the good posters drift away and kept the riff raff

I reacon there will be a lot of silent cheers at that. :hee:

Erm, I thought TS was the one being accused of being personal.

The words pot, kettle and black spring to mind.

I don't think anyone currently on the forum will ever rue the day they allowed the bigoted riff raff to drift off.

[Brillopad]

Because the fact that you felt wronged and upset in that thread is the main reason that you now feel the need to jump to the defense of someone else who you feel is in a similar position, even though it really isn't.

As it happens, I do appreciate why you have a bias relating to those specific issues, it is completely understandable, anyone with such personal involvement would. I would have far less issue with Brillo's views and xenophobia if, for example, she had lost family to Islamic extremism.

But as far as I can tell she hasn't, she just likes to froth over tabloid headlines and her own racist, small minded assumptions and subject everyone else to them as well.

You are only ‘subject to my small minded assumptions’ because you choose to as it is entirely your free choice to enter my threads, but you always do. Along with a couple of others you have tried hard to undermine my views and intimidate me off the forum and the fact it hasn’t worked so far annoys the hell out of you it seems.

You know what - tough.

[Brillopad]

Erm, I thought TS was the one being accused of being personal.

The words pot, kettle and black spring to mind.

I don't think anyone currently on the forum will ever rue the day they allowed the bigoted riff raff to drift off.

He is quick to dish it it out - it’s called tit for tat. Not an unnatural reaction.

[Marsh.]

Nobody's trying to intimidate anyone off the forum. Don't be so childish.

As long as you have the right to air your views and post your threads, others have the right to comment on what they think of those views.

[Marsh.]

He is quick to dish it it out - it’s called tit for tat. Not an unnatural reaction.

As I said earlier on in the thread, big difference between calling out on topic posts for what they believe to be racist or anything else over childish name calling.

TS calling out a post related to the discussion in question as being racist or Chuff popping up to call people riff raff. I think everyone knows full well which is the more valid contribution to the forum.

[user104658]

You are only ‘subject to my small minded assumptions’ because you choose to as it is entirely your free choice to enter my threads, but you always do. Along with a couple of others you have tried hard to undermine my views and intimidate me off the forum and the fact it hasn’t worked so far annoys the hell out of you it seems.

You know what - tough.

Like I said, I for one am not going to give you a "safe space" for your posts to go unchallenged. You're damned right I've tried hard to undermine racist views, and I'll continue to do so until I get bored of it or banned for it. If you don't want people who abhor your views entering your threads to tell you that... I'm afraid that too is "tough".

[Brillopad]

Like I said, I for one am not going to give you a "safe space" for your posts to go unchallenged. You're damned right I've tried hard to undermine racist views, and I'll continue to do so until I get bored of it or banned for it. If you don't want people who abhor your views entering your threads to tell you that... I'm afraid that too is "tough".

I have never used any unpleasant, nasty racist language - but you interpret my views against mass immigration and disapproval of a sexist religion as ‘racist’. Many, many people have the same concerns but you won’t shut them or me up by resorting to childish name-calling try as you might.

[Marsh.]

I have never used any unpleasant, nasty racist language - but you interpret my views against mass immigration and disapproval of a sexist religion as ‘racist’. Many, many people have the same concerns but you won’t shut them or me up by resorting to childish name-calling try as you might.

Many people do have similar concerns. But not all of them have racism as the main influence behind those concerns.

[Brillopad]

Many people do have similar concerns. But not all of them have racism as the main influence behind those concerns.

Keep on shouting it but it will never make it true because you and people like you say so. You cannot force people into your way of thinking by such behaviour. Truth is you enjoy the drama. :nono:

[user104658]

I have never used any unpleasant, nasty racist language - but you interpret my views against mass immigration and disapproval of a sexist religion as ‘racist’. Many, many people have the same concerns but you won’t shut them or me up by resorting to childish name-calling try as you might.

Yes many people have the same concerns, plenty of others on this forum have some of the same concerns, and while I'll argue against them too I don't think those views are based in a general underlying racism. I think yours are. You feel singled out - Why do you think that is? For me it's because you've made plenty of posts that demonstrate it to be the case that you simply do have a deep rooted level of racial prejudice.

The thing is Brillo... I do actually genuinely believe that you don't see it. You're not "hiding" it, you are just genuinely bewildered about why I (and several people) think your views are often heavily racist. Which makes you better than an unashamed out and out racist, I suppose, but it doesn't make the specific views any better.

[Marsh.]

Keep on shouting it but it will never make it true because you and people like you say so. You cannot force people into your way of thinking by such behaviour. Truth is you enjoy the drama. :nono:

Who's forcing what?

I don't remember forcing anyone to think like me or share my view?

[jet]

Because the fact that you felt wronged and upset in that thread is the main reason that you now feel the need to jump to the defense of someone else who you feel is in a similar position, even though it really isn't.

As it happens, I do appreciate why you have a bias relating to those specific issues, it is completely understandable, anyone with such personal involvement would. I would have far less issue with Brillo's views and xenophobia if, for example, she had lost family to Islamic extremism.

But as far as I can tell she hasn't, she just likes to froth over tabloid headlines and her own racist, small minded assumptions and subject everyone else to them as well.

Hating Islamic terrorists shouldn't be reserved for those who have lost family to them, should it? Maybe Brillo feels deeply for those who have. I don't really understand your reasoning here.
My support of Brillo has nothing to do with the thread you refer to. I don't always agree with her views, but calling her racist is the easy way out instead of giving her views respectful consideration and understanding her perspective of having strong views and a deep interest in the subjects she posts about, which I do. I don't believe she is racist, many others don't, so maybe YOU are wrong? I simply and genuinely believe she is ganged up on mercilessly and has been for a long time. People are now speaking out against this. About time.

[Kizzy]

*Waits for bold Niamh to show up*
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-03/enhanced/webdr05/11/5/anigif_enhanced-12216-1394530702-20.gif

[Withano]

People often quote and respond to funny/interesting/incorrect/frustrating/stupid/racist(as well as other ists and ophobias) posts. If any member feels as if they're being targetted by several members, its probably because they fit this criteria regularly imo.

[Brillopad]

Hating Islamic terrorists shouldn't be reserved for those who have lost family to them, should it? Maybe Brillo feels deeply for those who have. I don't really understand your reasoning here.
My support of Brillo has nothing to do with the thread you refer to. I don't always agree with her views, but calling her racist is the easy way out instead of giving her views respectful consideration and understanding her perspective of having strong views and a deep interest in the subjects she posts about, which I do. I don't believe she is racist, many others don't, so maybe YOU are wrong? I simply and genuinely believe she is ganged up on mercilessly and has been for a long time. People are now speaking out against this. About time.

Thanks Jet. Despite what some people like to think, I am not made of stone. Things get to me too - but I am stubborn and the more people push the more I push back. I will never give in to that kind of cr*p.

[user104658]

Hating Islamic terrorists shouldn't be reserved for those who have lost family to them, should it? Maybe Brillo feels deeply for those who have. I don't really understand your reasoning here.
My support of Brillo has nothing to do with the thread you refer to. I don't always agree with her views, but calling her racist is the easy way out instead of giving her views respectful consideration and understanding her perspective of having strong views and a deep interest in the subjects she posts about, which I do. I don't believe she is racist, many others don't, so maybe YOU are wrong? I simply and genuinely believe she is ganged up on mercilessly and has been for a long time. People are now speaking out against this. About time.Brillo's opposition to Islamic extremism has absolutely nothing to do with the things that I find to be racist. Brillo's general disdain for pretty much everyone and everything that pertains to anyone from the middle east is what I'm calling racist. Perhaps you've missed those threads? To give an example; there was a thread about a boy from a private school and some sort of issue the school had had with his mother. There was NO personal information about the family, other than their name and a picture showing their race.

None. Their religion isn't mentioned, even, there is no suggestion at all that they were even Muslim.

Brillo launched full force into a rant about "the mothers likely beliefs" and "what these people expect". From a foreign sounding name, and a picture of the son in school uniform.

That is the very definition of racial prejudice. Perhaps you missed that one? Or are you going to argue that it ISN'T racist? There are countless other examples. You aren't on here as much as some of us (not that that's a bad thing; I'm on here waaay too much) but, perhaps, you happen not to have seen the genuinely racist posts that have informed my view over time. They are there. It's not obvious in every post, but once you've seen them, it becomes quite obvious.

Regardless... It doesn't really matter that you or others disagree with me. But I guess if we have to, we'll go back here, again: I'm stating MY OPINION nothing more, I'm not trying to manipulate or state something as a universal truth that all people must believe, no matter how many times you would all like to pretend that I am to distract from my opinion.

[Brillopad]

Brillo's opposition to Islamic extremism has absolutely nothing to do with the things that I find to be racist. Brillo's general disdain for pretty much everyone and everything that pertains to anyone from the middle east is what I'm calling racist. Perhaps you've missed those threads? To give an example; there was a thread about a boy from a private school and some sort of issue the school had had with his mother. There was NO personal information about the family, other than their name and a picture showing their race.

None. Their religion isn't mentioned, even, there is no suggestion at all that they were even Muslim.

Brillo launched full force into a rant about "the mothers likely beliefs" and "what these people expect". From a foreign sounding name, and a picture of the son in school uniform.

That is the very definition of racial prejudice. Perhaps you missed that one? Or are you going to argue that it ISN'T racist? There are countless other examples. You aren't on here as much as some of us (not that that's a bad thing; I'm on here waaay too much) but, perhaps, you happen not to have seen the genuinely racist posts that have informed my view over time. They are there. It's not obvious in every post, but once you've seen them, it becomes quite obvious.

Regardless... It doesn't really matter that you or others disagree with me. But I guess if we have to, we'll go back here, again: I'm stating MY OPINION nothing more, I'm not trying to manipulate or state something as a universal truth that all people must believe, no matter how many times you would all like to pretend that I am to distract from my opinion.

It becomes ‘obvious’ to those who see what they want to see.

[user104658]

It becomes ‘obvious’ to those who see what they want to see.Utterly meaningless Brillo.

Though I notice there's not even an attempt to justify the bile you were pumping out in the specific thread I used as an example.

[Brillopad]

Utterly meaningless Brillo.

Just like your little diatribe.

[user104658]

Just like your little diatribe.So we've descended into the "no that's u that is" stuff again. OK. The thread has run its course, I guess.

As a final thought I'd just say... You talk a lot about wishing for a "world without PC" where people can say what they want, but then you go into victim / persecuted mode when people say what they want about your posts and call out the ones that they don't like. Do you actually want that world, or not? It seems a lot like you really don't want it. Or maybe you only want it for yourself and your views. It doesn't work that way and it never will.

[Brillopad]

So we've descended into the "no that's u that is" stuff again. OK. The thread has run its course, I guess.

As a final thought I'd just say... You talk a lot about wishing for a "world without PC" where people can say what they want, but then you go into victim / persecuted mode when people say what they want about your posts and call out the ones that they don't like. Do you actually want that world, or not? It seems a lot like you really don't want it. Or maybe you only want it for yourself and your views. It doesn't work that way and it never will.

I have never said that people should be able to say anything they want, and that works both ways, but people should be able to express views and opinions in a reasonable way on issues that affect everyone, however much some don’t like it, and without having to put up with constant character assassination because of it. It is childish and controlling and in the grown-up world should never work that way.

[DemolitionRed]

So we've descended into the "no that's u that is" stuff again. OK. The thread has run its course, I guess.

As a final thought I'd just say... You talk a lot about wishing for a "world without PC" where people can say what they want, but then you go into victim / persecuted mode when people say what they want about your posts and call out the ones that they don't like. Do you actually want that world, or not? It seems a lot like you really don't want it. Or maybe you only want it for yourself and your views. It doesn't work that way and it never will.

:clap1:

@Brillo

I don't despise you Brillo. I even agree with you sometimes but when it comes to Muslims and immigrants, you don't come over well.

[Kizzy]

So we've descended into the "no that's u that is" stuff again. OK. The thread has run its course, I guess.

As a final thought I'd just say... You talk a lot about wishing for a "world without PC" where people can say what they want, but then you go into victim / persecuted mode when people say what they want about your posts and call out the ones that they don't like. Do you actually want that world, or not? It seems a lot like you really don't want it. Or maybe you only want it for yourself and your views. It doesn't work that way and it never will.

I have the same issue, recently the word 'shameful' has been cropping up.... has anyone else noticed this? It usually makes an appearance at times of tragedy when it's inferred that the powers that be be held accountable or difficult questions are asked.
Being accused of being 'PC' is the same, it's a way of silencing people by mocking them and attempting to reduce their opinion enough that it be dismissed.

[user104658]

I have never said that people should be able to say anything they want, and that works both ways, but people should be able to express views and opinions in a reasonable way on issues that affect everyone, however much some don’t like it, and without having to put up with constant character assassination because of it. It is childish and controlling and in the grown-up world should never work that way.

That's the thing though Brillo... There ARE people who express views, opinions and concerns on these issues in a reasonable way, but you generally aren't one of them. But I genuinely don't think you'll ever see that.

[Beso]

So we've descended into the "no that's u that is" stuff again. OK. The thread has run its course, I guess.

As a final thought I'd just say... You talk a lot about wishing for a "world without PC" where people can say what they want, but then you go into victim / persecuted mode when people say what they want about your posts and call out the ones that they don't like. Do you actually want that world, or not? It seems a lot like you really don't want it. Or maybe you only want it for yourself and your views. It doesn't work that way and it never will.

So has it ran its course or not? Cause you have a heck of a lot to say afterwards.

"Threads ran its course but i will say one last thing" do you just want the world for yourself and your views?:hehe:

[jet]

That's the thing though Brillo... There ARE people who express views, opinions and concerns on these issues in a reasonable way, but you generally aren't one of them. But I genuinely don't think you'll ever see that.

I think Brillo expresses herself very well.

If you genuinely believe Brillo is racist, what do you hope to achieve by coming into all her threads and belittling her, making fun or her threads and saying things like imo YOU ARE A MASSIVE racist. etc.

If you genuinely cared about racism and wanted to help to reduce it where you could surely the way to deal with what you perceive as racism is by considerate, patient and helpful dialogue which over time may cause the person to think twice about their views? You can't beat racism out of someone with a sledgehammer. (NOT, I repeat, that I think Brillo is racist.)

You have repeatedly said you will continue to come into Brillo's threads and shout loud and clear every time you perceive racism to be evident. It seems to me that taking that approach is for your own amusement rather than a desire to further the cause of reducing what you perceive as racism by intelligent and thoughtful dialogue, which you are good at when you don't include the snide remarks, cheap shots and crying 'racist' for the 100th time.

[jet]

I have never said that people should be able to say anything they want, and that works both ways, but people should be able to express views and opinions in a reasonable way on issues that affect everyone, however much some don’t like it, and without having to put up with constant character assassination because of it. It is childish and controlling and in the grown-up world should never work that way.

Well said, all of it.

[user104658]

So has it ran its course or not? Cause you have a heck of a lot to say afterwards.

"Threads ran its course but i will say one last thing" do you just want the world for yourself and your views?:hehe:

I'm sorry... are you turning up at the 11th hour to throw in your 2 cents, and that 2 cents is to pick at the corpse of the thread to get your own little jibe in? :umm2: The word "vulture" springs to mind. Or "seagull", maybe, chasing after the last few soggy chips :worry:.

You're like the little kid at the end of a fight running in to kick someone's shins so that you can say "hee hee! hee hee guys I was in the fight too!" :joker:

[Tom4784]

Someone having an opinion on someone else's opinion is not 'character assassination'. It's a silly claim that only tries to shut down opposing opinions. Honestly, a lot of the people who claim Political Correctness is the devil are strangely for it when it benefits them.

You can't have it one way but not the other, if people are free to spout opinions that seem racist then other people are allowed to share their opinions that they are being racist. Making out that they are being insulting by calling out racism or the other methods used to silence opposing opinions is just being overly political correct in the way you claim to hate.

[user104658]

I think Brillo expresses herself very well.

If you genuinely believe Brillo is racist, what do you hope to achieve by coming into all her threads and belittling her, making fun or her threads and saying things like imo YOU ARE A MASSIVE racist. etc.

If you genuinely cared about racism and wanted to help to reduce it where you could surely the way to deal with what you perceive as racism is by considerate, patient and helpful dialogue which over time may cause the person to think twice about their views? You can't beat racism out of someone with a sledgehammer. (NOT, I repeat, that I think Brillo is racist.)

You have repeatedly said you will continue to come into Brillo's threads and shout loud and clear every time you perceive racism to be evident. It seems to me that taking that approach is for your own amusement rather than a desire to further the cause of reducing what you perceive as racism by intelligent and thoughtful dialogue, which you are good at when you don't include the snide remarks, cheap shots and crying 'racist' for the 100th time.


Except that is never what happens. Generally, in the past, people come in and try to do exactly what you have said, only to be responded to with "Oh here comes the PC brigade! PC gone mad! Snowflakes!"... from those who would accuse others of "shutting down their views" in petty ways :facepalm:

But by all means, carry on pretending like you haven't seen that happening. I understand the compulsion to support the underdog. It's a bit disingenuous but I fully understand that you feel bad for Brillo, and even why.

[jet]

Except that is never what happens. Generally, in the past, people come in and try to do exactly what you have said, only to be responded to with "Oh here comes the PC brigade! PC gone mad! Snowflakes!"... from those who would accuse others of "shutting down their views" in petty ways :facepalm:

But by all means, carry on pretending like you haven't seen that happening. I understand the compulsion to support the underdog. It's a bit disingenuous but I fully understand that you feel bad for Brillo, and even why.

Come off it. How many threads of Brillo's did you get shut down in the past or derailed by coming in and slinging insults and belittling her? That type of behaviour (and not just by you of course, but frequently by you) was far more prevalent than any snowflake remarks.

But of course you insist Brillo is racist and she just doesn't realise it, according to you. And according to you, you understand that I feel bad for her and even why. You insist that you know what people are thinking and feeling better than they know themselves. Such arrogance.

[user104658]

Come off it. How many threads of Brillo's did you get shut down in the past or derailed by coming in and slinging insults and belittling her? That type of behaviour (and not just by you of course, but frequently by you) was far more prevalent than any snowflake remarks.

But of course you insist Brillo is racist and she just doesn't realise it, according to you. And according to you, you understand that I feel bad for her and even why. You insist that you know what people are thinking and feeling better than they know themselves. Such arrogance.

Considering that the options are that she says racist things and doesn't realise it, or that she says racist things and DOES realise it, I'm actually assuming the best by suggesting that she doesn't. I'd also like to know which insults I've supposedly slung other than stating my opinion that the posts are racist in content... because I'm pretty sure there are none. So we're back to it just being that no one is "allowed to" say that they find a post / post-er to be racist. Why? Why is that opinion invalid? Is it always invalid? Is no one EVER allowed to find ANYTHING to be racist? I'm pretty sure that's the answer that's being driven for here and it's just ****ing nonsense.

[jet]

Considering that the options are that she says racist things and doesn't realise it, or that she says racist things and DOES realise it, I'm actually assuming the best by suggesting that she doesn't. I'd also like to know which insults I've supposedly slung other than stating my opinion that the posts are racist in content... because I'm pretty sure there are none. So we're back to it just being that no one is "allowed to" say that they find a post / post-er to be racist. Why? Why is that opinion invalid? Is it always invalid? Is no one EVER allowed to find ANYTHING to be racist? I'm pretty sure that's the answer that's being driven for here and it's just ****ing nonsense.

You don't recall getting threads of Brillo's closed or derailed by coming in and mocking them in the past? Okay then.

It's your perception that she says racist things, so you don't get to decide that she is and doesn't realise it. What matters is what she knows is in her own heart and mind.
Just because someone is against mass emigration and certain religious practises doesn't automatically make them a racist. Someone would have to make a very strong insult or definite statement against another race for me to go down the road of calling them a racist, mainly because I think the word is slung about far too often nowadays. It is belittling and diluting what real racism is.

People can have some negative views of certain aspects of other people, of other religions, of other races. It's allowed, it's called individuality, it isn't horrible and it isn't unusual. Different stokes for different folks. It's human. I wonder what they say about us...hmmm...lol
I personally am strongly against racism, and I honestly don't see Brillo, or anyone else on this forum as truly racist.

Now, if they spew venom, incite violence, hurt, kill or maim in the name of their views, that's a whole different thing.

Pertaining to religions - what do you think of the way the Christian religion and a belief in God is mocked and thought of as hilariously stupid by many on this forum? I don't recall you having a problem with that or have I missed it?
Brillo doesn't mock, she states her views in a respectful way and therefore deserves respectful dialogue in return, even if those views are not to someones liking.

[Brillopad]

Someone having an opinion on someone else's opinion is not 'character assassination'. It's a silly claim that only tries to shut down opposing opinions. Honestly, a lot of the people who claim Political Correctness is the devil are strangely for it when it benefits them.

You can't have it one way but not the other, if people are free to spout opinions that seem racist then other people are allowed to share their opinions that they are being racist. Making out that they are being insulting by calling out racism or the other methods used to silence opposing opinions is just being overly political correct in the way you claim to hate.

Opinion is opinion and everyone is entitled to it but it’s how it is expressed that counts a lot. If I kept using the same kind of language towards TS and others that they think they have a right to use towards me because they don’t agree with my opinions I would be treated very differently. Many others can see that how ever much you try to deny it.

[Brillopad]

:clap1:

@Brillo

I don't despise you Brillo. I even agree with you sometimes but when it comes to Muslims and immigrants, you don't come over well.

IF I tried to treat Muslims the way many treat women then you might have a point.

[Cherie]

You don't recall getting threads of Brillo's closed or derailed by coming in and mocking them in the past? Okay then.

It's your perception that she says racist things, so you don't get to decide that she is and doesn't realise it. What matters is what she knows is in her own heart and mind.
Just because someone is against mass emigration and certain religious practises doesn't automatically make them a racist. Someone would have to make a very strong insult or definite statement against another race for me to go down the road of calling them a racist, mainly because I think the word is slung about far too often nowadays. It is belittling and diluting what real racism is.

People can have some negative views of certain aspects of other people, of other religions, of other races. It's allowed, it's called individuality, it isn't horrible and it isn't unusual. Different stokes for different folks. It's human. I wonder what they say about us...hmmm...lol
I personally am strongly against racism, and I honestly don't see Brillo, or anyone else on this forum as truly racist.

Now, if they spew venom, incite violence, hurt, kill or maim in the name of their views, that's a whole different thing.

Pertaining to religions - what do you think of the way the Christian religion and a belief in God is mocked and thought of as hilariously stupid by many on this forum? I don't recall you having a problem with that or have I missed it?
Brillo doesn't mock, she states her views in a respectful way and therefore deserves respectful dialogue in return, even if those views are not to someones liking.


Jet you are a tonic and just what the forum needs, reasoned articulate reposts and I agree with every word

[Cherie]

Opinion is opinion and everyone is entitled to it but it’s how it is expressed that counts a lot. If I kept using the same kind of language towards TS and others that they think they have a right to use towards me because they don’t agree with my opinions I would be treated very differently. Many others can see that how ever much you try to deny it.

And this is the crux of the point being made

[user104658]

Except that half of it is pure fantasy. Still not even one vague attempt to explain the private school thread? I gave a specific example and no one, not even Brillo, has attempted to explain how it is in any way "not racist". Completely ignored. I guess it doesn't fit the narrative?

[Cherie]

Except that half of it is pure fantasy. Still not even one vague attempt to explain the private school thread? I gave a specific example and no one, not even Brillo, has attempted to explain how it is in any way "not racist". Completely ignored. I guess it doesn't fit the narrative?

I actually didn't see it and i have a pretty good memory, might have been away or something, plus I don't go into every thread, post the link maybe?

[user104658]

And this is the crux of the point being madeYes it is, and I can see that the new tactic is to make out that Brillo is a reasoned, measured and polite orator who always posts things in a thoughtful and balanced manner and is now being unfairly targeted.

I mean come on. There are and have been MANY members on this site who fit that description... I can fully admit that most of the time I'm not one of them but, ffs, Brillo is not one either. Genuinely ridiculous argument.

[Cherie]

Yes it is, and I can see that the new tactic is to make out that Brillo is a reasoned, measured and polite orator who always posts things in a thoughtful and balanced manner and is now being unfairly targeted.

I mean come on. There are and have been MANY members on this site who fit that description... I can fully admit that most of the time I'm not one of them but, ffs, Brillo is not one either. Genuinely ridiculous argument.

In my defence I have never seen Brillo mock someone's opinion unless she is attacked but again I don't go into every thread, I did a search for the private school thing and can't find it, I can only go by what I read, incidentally do you ever sleep..:laugh:

[Josy]

This threads a mess. similar to the way most threads in here turn out these days....

ANYONE is entitled to their opinion on here and is entitled to express that opinion or on the other hand question that opinion, as long as it's all done in a respectful way and is within the forum rules.

But seriously stop this constant arguing, it's not debates going on in this section its silly tit for tat comments amongst the same members a majority of the time.