19 year old male elected as labours womens officer

[Kizzy]

If women had better impulse control then it would apply to other compulsive behaviours too, which it doesn't, so it can't be as simple as that. I would argue that it again comes back to the difference in physical strength; predatory men attack overpower, or attempt to overpower, because they feel like there's a good chance they CAN physically dominate their target. As has been discussed in this thread, it's highly unlikely that the average woman could overpower the average man and therefore it follows that there would be fewer attempts to do so.

Obviously it's impossible to say for sure because it's all hypothetical... But, I very highly suspect that if there was some sort of global mutation over night that doubled the physical strength of every female, and halved the physical strength of every male, then you would see a dramatic shift in the statistics going forward.

You also seem to have a bit of a conflict going on regarding what you believe about the male and female brain Vicky. On the one hand you insist that there is no such thing as transgenderism because there's no such thing as the "mystical, magical male or female brain" and yet you seem to believe on the other hand that there ARE fundamental differences between male and female psychology that mean men have poorer impulse control and are more likely to act on violent or predatory urges... Which strongly suggests that there IS such a thing as a male and female brain, and therefore that a male or female brain COULD be in the wrong physical body.

Could a woman not as likely drug and rape a man, why do we not see this happening?

Vicky mentions the brain in connection with socialisation which is reasonable and legitimate.

[Vicky.]

It has nothing to do with defensiveness and everything to do with trying to have an open discussion free from snideness and personal prejudice... Because some people actually want to use this forum for debate and discussion, and not for blinkered campaigning and soapboxing. :shrug:

You think admitting its mainly men who do this is blinkered campaigning and soapboxing? Really?

I would say the debate and discussion on this topic should really be WHY is it mainly men who do this. You said just before it might have something to do with strength and such. Well yes it might, thats probably a part of it, because men CAN just do what they like to women. I doubt thats the only reason though.

If there was a changearound tomorrow and suddenly women were stronger than men, I really do not think we would suddenly have a switcharound in offending rates and suddenly women would be sexually assaulting men in droves. I don't think its solely down to strength.

[Vicky.]

Could a woman not as likely drug and rape a man, why do we not see this happening?

Good point. Again. There are ways where women could overpower a man pretty easily. But they don't (disclaimer, one new story where this happened proves nothing tbh..before one is searched for. Yes a couple of women may have done this, but again nowhere near on the scale of men). Why is this :think:

[Kizzy]

It has nothing to do with defensiveness and everything to do with trying to have an open discussion free from snideness and personal prejudice... Because some people actually want to use this forum for debate and discussion, and not for blinkered campaigning and soapboxing. :shrug:

prejudice?... You accused me of being a radical feminist for using the word 'mansplaining'... Get some perspective!

[Vicky.]

Not sure if I should splice this thread and put the sexual assault part in another thread or not. Mind its all relative, I guess. The thread is now offtopic, but it makes sense how its got to here :laugh:

[user104658]

You think admitting its mainly men who do this is blinkered campaigning and soapboxing? Really?

No, and I haven't denied that it's men who do this more than women (when it comes to actual violent assault and rape) - I do deny that it's "rare" for women to do more minor things like catcalling and groping in bars / clubs. No one has tried to suggest that it is equal or anywhere near equal when it comes serious assault.

Overall this comment was directed at Kizzy because she's doing it in every thread. Buzzwords, mantras, slogans and gifs. Soapboxing with absolutely no intention of having a debate or discussion. Just the flipside of ... Certain other posters. :shrug:

I would say the debate and discussion on this topic should really be WHY is it mainly men who do this.

Thats exactly what I have been doing :think:

[Kizzy]

Not sure if I should splice this thread and put the sexual assault part in another thread or not. Mind its all relative, I guess. The thread is now offtopic, but it makes sense how its got to here :laugh:

It's distasteful how it has, as in the inference that letting transwomen in ladies loos might raise the risk of assault, you can't hide form the possibility that predators could go to those lengths :/

[user104658]

prejudice?... You accused me of being a radical feminist for using the word 'mansplaining'... Get some perspective!The word "Mansplaining" is combative feminist rhetoric, used for soapboxing and point scoring, designed to belittle, insult and trivialise. It has no place in any rational debate or discussion.

[Jamie89]

Saying things like 'not all men are like that' and 'women do it too' may be defensive but I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for someone to want to add it to the conversation. Nobody's actually denied that men commit the most sexual assaults, I don't think that's anyone's intention.
Tbf sometimes people do refer to 'all men' and lump us all together, not in this thread but generally speaking, it's kind of instinctive just to want to point out that that's not the case (maybe that's to do with our socialisation lol) even if it's not really necessary to do so. I don't think there's any bad intent with it or trying to take anything away from women or it even being because people feel insulted tbh.

Not sure if I should splice this thread and put the sexual assault part in another thread or not. Mind its all relative, I guess. The thread is now offtopic, but it makes sense how its got to here [emoji23]

I think that would be a really good idea [emoji23] there's obvious links but it's a different topic now and an interesting one that's worthy of its own discussion imo.

[Brillopad]

[QUOTE=Christmas treeza;9720341]Could a woman not as likely drug and rape a man, why do we not see this happening?[/QUOTE

It’s just not built into their psyche in the same way as men in my opinion, for a miriad of different reasons, including social conditioning.

Men often seem to have a need to prove their strength, not so much physical, and position in the social hierachy - with some having a screwed-up perspective.

For some men sex is power - they are unable to see what really counts. Women tend not to think like that in my opinion.

[Kizzy]

No, and I haven't denied that it's men who do this more than women (when it comes to actual violent assault and rape) - I do deny that it's "rare" for women to do more minor things like catcalling and groping in bars / clubs. No one has tried to suggest that it is equal or anywhere near equal when it comes serious assault.

Overall this comment was directed at Kizzy because she's doing it in every thread. Buzzwords, mantras, slogans and gifs. Soapboxing with absolutely no intention of having a debate or discussion. Just the flipside of ... Certain other posters. :shrug:



Thats exactly what I have been doing :think:

What buzzwords, mantras or slogans have I used?...
Could I have an example of my 'soapboxing' please?

This is all brand new information, I had no idea you were building this catalogue of resentment towards me :/

[Vicky.]

It's distasteful how it has, as in the inference that letting transwomen in ladies loos might raise the risk of assault, you can't hide form the possibility that predators could go to those lengths :/

But that is true. The amount of 'transwomen' (I say in brackets as its debateable if these people actually have sex dysphoria) who have been done for sexual assault/rape is ridiculous. In prisons, the amount of people who are 'trans' and done for sexual assault are far higher (percentage wise) than normal men who do it. Predators go to extraordinary lengths to gain access to their victims. Saying they are a woman in their head is nothing really.

The entire movement as it is now, is so detrimental to actual transsexual people. Its detrimental to them, and its also detrimental to women.

Also the only study done does show that even transwomen who are transitioning with hormones or more...retain 'male pattern violence'. Which makes perfect sense as they were on the whole, socialized as male.

Its awkward to talk about it sure. But its a talk that simply HAS to be had. And at the moment any discussion of it gets shut down with cries of 'transphobia'. For gods sake, even when transsexual people speak about it they are accused of being transphobes...

[Vicky.]

I can't find a place to splice to make the new thread make sense. If I just make another thread can discussion about this move to there maybe? Or continue here, whichever :laugh:

[user104658]

What buzzwords, mantras or slogans have I used?...
Could I have an example of my 'soapboxing' please?

This is all brand new information, I had no idea you were building this catalogue of resentment towards me :/I don't need to find specific examples Kizzy, you don't discuss anything, you announce your opinions with no intent to actually discuss them. Soapboxing.

[Jamie89]

I can't find a place to splice to make the new thread make sense. If I just make another thread can discussion about this move to there maybe? Or continue here, whichever [emoji23]I suppose it doesn't really matter. I just think if more news comes out about Lily and people want to add it this thread, or add something to this original discussion it would be a bit hard/messy? It's not important though if you can't

[Kizzy]

The word "Mansplaining" is combative feminist rhetoric, used for soapboxing and point scoring, designed to belittle, insult and trivialise. It has no place in any rational debate or discussion.

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9230343&highlight=mansplaining#post9230343

Strange, because the last and only time I have used that term on this forum was on exactly the same topic, I used it to brillo ..and you quoted me, not to berate me or accuse me of being a radical feminist or that I was belittling insulting or trivialising the debate... but simply to inform me that brillo was a woman.

So it appears that you are only grossly offended at the accusation being leveled at yourself!

The only other time the word has been used in the history of the forum is by northern monkey in one of his 'PC' dragging you tube vids, that nobody bar arista commented on.

[Vicky.]

I suppose it doesn't really matter. I just think if more news comes out about Lily and people want to add it this thread, or add something to this original discussion it would be a bit hard/messy? It's not important though if you can't

There will be more news about Lily. For sure. You know the list of people who are happy for a male person to be taking spaces on the jo cox women in leadership thing? Well the people who resigned on the CLP when Anne Ruzlo had to quit due to being harassed for 'transphobic views' (worrying about the impact on females) are currently gathering signatures to say its wrong. So this ****storm has not ended yet D:

I have no doubts though that Labour will stand by the ridiculous decision. There are many many people saying they will no longer vote Labour due to Labour clearly not giving a **** about women. This whole thing seems to be ensuring yet another Tory win.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101669-A-Spartacus-letter-re-Jo-Cox-Leadership?pg=1

200 people so far. Including me.

I would never vote Tory as they are evil. But I don't think I can vote for a party that has such misogynistic views either. And Corbyn fully supports this crap. Might have to spoil my next ballot as no party seems willing to stand up for the rights of women (or children, or gay people...with the 'transing' gender non-conforming kids scandal thats currently happening) :bored:

[Brillopad]

There will be more news about Lily. For sure. You know the list of people who are happy for a male person to be taking spaces on the jo cox women in leadership thing? Well the people who resigned on the CLP when Anne Ruzlo had to quit due to being harassed for 'transphobic views' (worrying about the impact on females) are currently gathering signatures to say its wrong. So this ****storm has not ended yet D:

I have no doubts though that Labour will stand by the ridiculous decision. There are many many people saying they will no longer vote Labour due to Labour clearly not giving a **** about women. This whole thing seems to be ensuring yet another Tory win.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101669-A-Spartacus-letter-re-Jo-Cox-Leadership?pg=1

200 people so far. Including me.

I would never vote Tory as they are evil. But I don't think I can vote for a party that has such misogynistic views either. And Corbyn fully supports this crap. Might have to spoil my next ballot as no party seems willing to stand up for the rights of women (or children, or gay people...with the 'transing' gender non-conforming kids scandal thats currently happening) :bored:

Corbyn supports a lot of dubious views in my opinion - hence why I have never liked or trusted the man. He says the right things when it suits.

[Jamie89]

There will be more news about Lily. For sure. You know the list of people who are happy for a male person to be taking spaces on the jo cox women in leadership thing? Well the people who resigned on the CLP when Anne Ruzlo had to quit due to being harassed for 'transphobic views' (worrying about the impact on females) are currently gathering signatures to say its wrong. So this ****storm has not ended yet D:

I have no doubts though that Labour will stand by the ridiculous decision. There are many many people saying they will no longer vote Labour due to Labour clearly not giving a **** about women. This whole thing seems to be ensuring yet another Tory win.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101669-A-Spartacus-letter-re-Jo-Cox-Leadership?pg=1

200 people so far. Including me.

I would never vote Tory as they are evil. But I don't think I can vote for a party that has such misogynistic views either. And Corbyn fully supports this crap. Might have to spoil my next ballot as no party seems willing to stand up for the rights of women (or children, or gay people...with the 'transing' gender non-conforming kids scandal thats currently happening) :bored:Is it technically off topic that you've brought this back on topic [emoji14] but yeah I agree it's not going to go away. Maybe in that case a new thread for all the other stuff would be best?

[Kizzy]

I don't need to find specific examples Kizzy, you don't discuss anything, you announce your opinions with no intent to actually discuss them. Soapboxing.

So that's a no then... You have nothing except 'I state my opinion'
I do discuss things, you might have not noticed as you usually follow me around saying 'well, no because..' Have a look, you do it often.

I'm glad I've had this opportunity to tell you how wearing it is having someone constantly attempting to undermine my opinion on any given topic.
I hope you appreciate that you can and do come across as mansplaining at times.

[Vicky.]

Corbyn supports a lot of dubious views in my opinion - hence why I have never liked or trusted the man. He says the right things when it suits.

Corbyn is an odd one. He says there is a need for female only carriages on trains. But he also thinks its fine for any man to say he is a woman. Where do those views held simultaneously make any sense?

Problem if, both main parties support this regressive anti-woman bull****. As do the greens. Not sure on the Lib Dem view...but I suppose its the same as Labour. There is NO party willing to stand up for women (the kind without penises). I find that really sad.

[Kizzy]

There will be more news about Lily. For sure. You know the list of people who are happy for a male person to be taking spaces on the jo cox women in leadership thing? Well the people who resigned on the CLP when Anne Ruzlo had to quit due to being harassed for 'transphobic views' (worrying about the impact on females) are currently gathering signatures to say its wrong. So this ****storm has not ended yet D:

I have no doubts though that Labour will stand by the ridiculous decision. There are many many people saying they will no longer vote Labour due to Labour clearly not giving a **** about women. This whole thing seems to be ensuring yet another Tory win.

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101669-A-Spartacus-letter-re-Jo-Cox-Leadership?pg=1

200 people so far. Including me.

I would never vote Tory as they are evil. But I don't think I can vote for a party that has such misogynistic views either. And Corbyn fully supports this crap. Might have to spoil my next ballot as no party seems willing to stand up for the rights of women (or children, or gay people...with the 'transing' gender non-conforming kids scandal thats currently happening) :bored:

I would say that is my only worry that there is a danger of trying to be all things to all people, you are are at risk of alienating one group by supporting another. That is one topic trasnskids, I have done a 180 on, I was for the halting of puberty with drugs... and now I feel that counselling, support and peer mentoring is a better way.

[user104658]

I hope you appreciate that you can and do come across as mansplaining at times.

Baiting, Kizzy. Better luck next time though.

[user104658]

To simplify this though;

You state an opinion. I state a counter opinion; this is debate and discussion. You now try to shut that counter opinion down by bleating "Mansplaining", in an attempt to negate it and leave only your original opinion.

This is soapboxing.

[Vicky.]

I would say that is my only worry that there is a danger of trying to be all things to all people, you are are at risk of alienating one group by supporting another. That is one topic trasnskids, I have done a 180 on, I was for the halting of puberty with drugs... and now I feel that counselling, support and peer mentoring is a better way.

Definitely. I would say giving puberty blockers is actually child abuse. There is a huge scandal in America of people given Lupron (the chemotherapy drug used to halt puberty) who have gone onto have lifelong medical problems off it, and this is fully grown women who were given it for only a few months. The effects on a childs body who has been given it for years is...awful to think about really.

Watchful waiting, is clearly the way to go with kids. Not drugging them up to the eyeballs just because they don't follow bloody stereotypes. I mean, there are parents saying their bloody 3 year olds are trans now. Its just silly.

Its a sad statistic really, but when non-conforming kids are just left alone to develop (with counseling and such) 80-95% (depending where you look) of them effectively 'grow out' of their questioning. But when they are put onto blockers, near 100% go onto cross sex hormones. So blockers are NOT simply 'to give them time to figure it out'. Putting them on blockers is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Yes, the 5-20% of kids who do not grow out of it may benefit from blockers. But there is no way to tell which actually will grow up to be trans and which won't. I don;t feel its right to effectively throw 80% of kids under the bus to benefit the 20%. Watchful waiting is clearly the answer. If they still feel 'wrong' when they are adults, THEN drug them up and give them plastic surgeries to resemble to opposite sex.

Though, transition is made out to be the 'wonder cure' for trans people. When studies actually show that 5-10 years 'post transition' the suicide rate actually is higher than before any transition...something to think about really. I really do feel that 'transition' is not that different to giving someone with BDD a boob job, or cutting off a 'transabled' persons leg. Treating the illness but not the cause, in a way. Bandaid on a broken leg.

If it helps an individual person, great. Good for them. But much much more investigation and study needs to go into the whole thing. There was a guy..James Caspian..has worked with trans people most of his life and wanted to do a study on 'detransitioned' people. And was blocked from doing that study as the University he worked for were afraid of the response from transactivists, they were afraid of being labelled transphobic. Why would they be afraid of more study being done on people this affects?

Definitely more work needs to be done about how best to support these people.

I actually think with this 'transkids' thing there is going to be a massive backlash in 10 years or so. When these kids grow up and realise they were effective experimented on and that the people who should be looking out for their best interests, did not do that. Its similar to lobotomies in a way...the 'wonder cure. Which is anything but. I am worried that the backlash will be the end of the NHS, as the NHS encourage all of this, they signpost people to 'mermaids' (which is a pressure group, noone should be sent to them, they are horrendous). People trust the NHS. People think the NHS will always have their kids best interests. The NHS certainly do not have the kids best interests in this :S

[Brillopad]

Corbyn is an odd one. He says there is a need for female only carriages on trains. But he also thinks its fine for any man to say he is a woman. Where do those views held simultaneously make any sense?

Problem if, both main parties support this regressive anti-woman bull****. As do the greens. Not sure on the Lib Dem view...but I suppose its the same as Labour. There is NO party willing to stand up for women (the kind without penises). I find that really sad.

Sad and bizarre! Across the globe women make up approximately 50% (just over I think) of the worldwide population so why has it , and why is it still, proving to be such a slog to get our views and opinions listened to and treated with the respect they are entitled to even from other women in power. Again probably social conditioning raising its ugly head from the ashes of so-called equality. We still seem to have to fight for everything.

Most women do NOT want men who have allegedly self-identified as women lurking around their bathrooms and that view should be respected and acted on. There are a lot of serious male predators out there and no-one, including Corbyn, has the right to expose any girl/woman to that.

At best he clearly lacks any real understanding of the potential risks and undervalues our opinions, certainly in comparison to minority groups, his speciality, and his only concern it seems. Do only minority groups matter to him as they seem to be the headline catchers.

[Vicky.]

Sad and bizarre! Across the globe women make up approximately 50% (just over I think) of the worldwide population so why has it , and why is it still, proving to be such a slog to get our views and opinions listened to and treated with the respect they are entitled to even from other women in power. Again probably social conditioning raising its ugly head from the ashes of so-called equality. We still seem to have to fight for everything.

Most women do NOT want men who have allegedly self-identified as women lurking around their bathrooms and that view should be respected and acted on. There are a lot of serious male predators out there and no-one, including Corbyn, has the right to expose any girl/woman to that.

At best he clearly lacks any real understanding of the potential risks and undervalues our opinions, certainly in comparison to minority groups, his speciality, and his only concern it seems. Do only minority gro7os matter to him or are they the headline catchers.
Women are not even being consulted. Any woman who objects is immediately a 'transphobe'. Only trans groups have been advising the government on this issue. And trans groups certainly do not give a crap about women. They only care about the 'women' who were born with dicks. Its such a sad state of affairs.

Jess Phillips recently said that it was not unreasonable to expect the government to actually consult with womens rights groups on this issue. And was immediately bombarded with death threats, and cries of 'terf' and transphobe... Just for saying women should get a say in stuff that will affect them...

[user104658]

Honestly I think Corbyn just thinks that this idea is populist and fits with the image he's trying to project. He thinks it's a left-vote-winner and recently my opinion is that there's actually not much more to Corbyn than that... He would stand up for the rights of mosquitos to bite malnourished children if he thought the mosquitos would vote.

However I think he has drastically misjudged the situation... It's a very, very small niche that actually thinks this is a good idea. Most I would say are supportive of fully transitioned transgender people using the bathroom they want to use... But the idea that this should be extended to people who are not physically trans is not a popular one at all and is going to alienate a lot of his core voters. The idea has placed feminist and trans rights activists - who would normally stand on the same side of the equality / rights fence on the vast majority of issues - at each other's throats in such a way that I'd say it's almost as if it's by design... "make them fight each other and they won't have time to campaign for anything else".

[user104658]

Jess Phillips recently said that it was not unreasonable to expect the government to actually consult with womens rights groups on this issue. And was immediately bombarded with death threats, and cries of 'terf' and transphobe... Just for saying women should get a say in stuff that will affect them...

Thats how these things work now, haven't you heard? Made up buzzwords and mantras are the atom bombs of debate. "Terf!", "Lefty Liberal!", "Remoaner!"... *ahem*... "Mansplaining!"

[Brillopad]

Women are not even being consulted. Any woman who objects is immediately a 'transphobe'. Only trans groups have been advising the government on this issue. And trans groups certainly do not give a crap about women. They only care about the 'women' who were born with dicks. Its such a sad state of affairs.

Jess Phillips recently said that it was not unreasonable to expect the government to actually consult with womens rights groups on this issue. And was immediately bombarded with death threats, and cries of 'terf' and transphobe... Just for saying women should get a say in stuff that will affect them...

That is scary. The world is going mad. Although I can see how various groups want equality that is not the way to go about it and actually worries me about the characters and possibly the mental stability of people threatening others like that. Anyone who endorses it is a disgrace to politics in my opinion and clearly jumping on the vote-catching bandwagon. Not genuine at all.

This will eventually come back and bite them in the arse and probably end careers. Good.

[Kizzy]

To simplify this though;

You state an opinion. I state a counter opinion; this is debate and discussion. You now try to shut that counter opinion down by bleating "Mansplaining", in an attempt to negate it and leave only your original opinion.

This is soapboxing.

You don't , you begin with 'no' suggesting I'm in the wrong... have you never noticed that? I'm not getting into any tit for tat argument with you, I had no idea that using that word would unleash a torrent of pent up aggression so best leave it eh?

I note there was no response to your theory that should women suddenly become physically powerful that offences against men would rise, have you no explanation why then that date ape isn't more prevalent this effectively makes the woman stronger doesn't it?

[Kizzy]

Definitely. I would say giving puberty blockers is actually child abuse. There is a huge scandal in America of people given Lupron (the chemotherapy drug used to halt puberty) who have gone onto have lifelong medical problems off it, and this is fully grown women who were given it for only a few months. The effects on a childs body who has been given it for years is...awful to think about really.

Watchful waiting, is clearly the way to go with kids. Not drugging them up to the eyeballs just because they don't follow bloody stereotypes. I mean, there are parents saying their bloody 3 year olds are trans now. Its just silly.

Its a sad statistic really, but when non-conforming kids are just left alone to develop (with counseling and such) 80-95% (depending where you look) of them effectively 'grow out' of their questioning. But when they are put onto blockers, near 100% go onto cross sex hormones. So blockers are NOT simply 'to give them time to figure it out'. Putting them on blockers is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Yes, the 5-20% of kids who do not grow out of it may benefit from blockers. But there is no way to tell which actually will grow up to be trans and which won't. I don;t feel its right to effectively throw 80% of kids under the bus to benefit the 20%. Watchful waiting is clearly the answer. If they still feel 'wrong' when they are adults, THEN drug them up and give them plastic surgeries to resemble to opposite sex.

Though, transition is made out to be the 'wonder cure' for trans people. When studies actually show that 5-10 years 'post transition' the suicide rate actually is higher than before any transition...something to think about really. I really do feel that 'transition' is not that different to giving someone with BDD a boob job, or cutting off a 'transabled' persons leg. Treating the illness but not the cause, in a way. Bandaid on a broken leg.

If it helps an individual person, great. Good for them. But much much more investigation and study needs to go into the whole thing. There was a guy..James Caspian..has worked with trans people most of his life and wanted to do a study on 'detransitioned' people. And was blocked from doing that study as the University he worked for were afraid of the response from transactivists, they were afraid of being labelled transphobic. Why would they be afraid of more study being done on people this affects?

Definitely more work needs to be done about how best to support these people.

I actually think with this 'transkids' thing there is going to be a massive backlash in 10 years or so. When these kids grow up and realise they were effective experimented on and that the people who should be looking out for their best interests, did not do that. Its similar to lobotomies in a way...the 'wonder cure. Which is anything but. I am worried that the backlash will be the end of the NHS, as the NHS encourage all of this, they signpost people to 'mermaids' (which is a pressure group, noone should be sent to them, they are horrendous). People trust the NHS. People think the NHS will always have their kids best interests. The NHS certainly do not have the kids best interests in this :S

The conspiracy theorist in me would say it was to stop anyone 'gender confused' from reproducing :/

[Kizzy]

Thats how these things work now, haven't you heard? Made up buzzwords and mantras are the atom bombs of debate. "Terf!", "Lefty Liberal!", "Remoaner!"... *ahem*... "Mansplaining!"

Who would have thought that the only one to really cut you to the quick would be this one... :smug:

[user104658]

You don't , you begin with 'no' suggesting I'm in the wrong... have you never noticed that? I'm not getting into any tit for tat argument with you, I had no idea that using that word would unleash a torrent of pent up aggression so best leave it eh?

What are you even talking about? Do you start a counter opinion by saying "you're totally right!" and then saying something that contradicts it? If you have a counter opinion to someone then of course you believe them to be in the wrong. The alternative is agreement. How bizarre.

I note there was no response to your theory that should women suddenly become physically powerful that offences against men would rise, have you no explanation why then that date ape isn't more prevalent this effectively makes the woman stronger doesn't it?

No, it doesn't, it makes the woman exactly the same size and strength as before while the man remains stronger and heavier but incapacitated by drugs. I don't know if this is just down to you not actually understanding how date rape drugs work. They DON'T render the victim entirely unconscious, the man is still larger and heavier, and even if they did, how exactly would the woman heave the larger male away to assault him? Its simply not practical and the man being targeted is still a physical threat to the attacking woman. But I wouldn't want to Mansplain the effects of rohypnol to you.

[Vicky.]

Honestly I think Corbyn just thinks that this idea is populist and fits with the image he's trying to project. He thinks it's a left-vote-winner and recently my opinion is that there's actually not much more to Corbyn than that... He would stand up for the rights of mosquitos to bite malnourished children if he thought the mosquitos would vote.

However I think he has drastically misjudged the situation... It's a very, very small niche that actually thinks this is a good idea. Most I would say are supportive of fully transitioned transgender people using the bathroom they want to use... But the idea that this should be extended to people who are not physically trans is not a popular one at all and is going to alienate a lot of his core voters. The idea has placed feminist and trans rights activists - who would normally stand on the same side of the equality / rights fence on the vast majority of issues - at each other's throats in such a way that I'd say it's almost as if it's by design... "make them fight each other and they won't have time to campaign for anything else".

Indeed. personally my view is someone who is actually transsexual using the areas associated with the sex they wish to be is fine. But I don't think this should extend to male bodied people who are simply crossdressers or who do not actually have sex dysphoria. I am fully for 'trans rights' when 'trans' means transsexual, not any bloke who says he is a woman one day. 'Transgender' and 'transsexual' are two very different things.

And yes, there is something sinister about the current transactivist agenda. Honestly, todays transactivists have so much in common with MRAs (the problematic ones...not people actually concerned about the rights of men..there is a difference) that its impossible to ignore.

[Vicky.]

The conspiracy theorist in me would say it was to stop anyone 'gender confused' from reproducing :/

Its gay eugenics. And eugenics of people with Autism also (there are a disproportionate amount of 'trans' kids who are autistic)

And the whole movement is basically..get the **** back into your gendered box. Girls must wear dresses and be nice and play with dolls, boys must have short hair and play with trucks. If you do not conform, you are a problem.

Issue is...most of the population is 'gender non-conforming' in some way. Sex stereotypes are just that, stereotypes. Its crazy to expect people to conform to them.

[Vicky.]

Honestly I think Corbyn just thinks that this idea is populist and fits with the image he's trying to project. He thinks it's a left-vote-winner and recently my opinion is that there's actually not much more to Corbyn than that... He would stand up for the rights of mosquitos to bite malnourished children if he thought the mosquitos would vote.


I would also agree with this. And I used to be (forgive the phrase) a 'corbyn fangirl' pretty much. I thought he was brilliant, I thought he would 'save us'. I am starting to see a very different side to him (and a different side to Momentum also)

I think this is also why the Tories are supporting it all. To win votes that would otherwise go to Labour. With no thought to how it will affect the majority of the population. Very very ill judged, from both parties.

I think too..some people think this is similar to the fight for gay rights. Its not at all. Gay people wanted to be accepted for who they are. They were not proposing taking rights away from another group, they wanted their own rights. This is entirely different. Doesn't help that Stonewall added the T to LGB..which confuses people that little bit more. Ruth Hunt is a ****ing disgrace on this issue, truly. Shes throwing Lesbians especially under the bus. She refuses to comment on the amount of people who would otherwise simply be lesbian adults who are 'transed' as kids. Refuses to comment on the amount of lesbian adults who decide they are actually men so that they do not receive lesbophobic abuse anymore...and so on. She is who should be standing up for the rights of lesbians, being a butch lesbian herself ffs. But no, she won't comment and instead focuses all of her attention on 'trans'. Meanwhile, lesbians are being told they are transphobic for not sucking ladydick and such. Lesbians are deciding they are actually trans to escape the abuse they get as lesbians...more and more kids who would otherwise grow up to be gay are being given puberty blockers then cross sex hormones..and she won't comment at all. Absolutely mental.

[Vicky.]

I know I keep putting mumsnet links...but its about the only place on the internet where this can be discussed fully. And being mainly a place for parents, they discuss the effects that this 'trans' stuff has on kids on a fairly regular basis (also discuss the effects that this has on women regularly..being a place dominated by women). And there are a lot more members so a variety of people answering them ..but look at this guidance for special needs kids, that has recently been put out in scotland

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3101028-To-think-this-breath-takingly-ill-thought-out-regressive-sexist-nonsense-and-is-a-real-danger-to-children-with-special-needs?pg=1

Tell me this is not regressive sexist nonsense.

This is what kids with special needs will be taught, pushed by transactivists. These kids who do not wish to follow stereotypes will then be put on route to blockers. Kids with special needs. Autistic kids especially...when there is already a disproportionate amount of Autistic 'transkids'. Now they will basically be taught sex stereotypes and if they do not like the stereotypes..then they will think there is something wrong with them and they are actually the opposite sex. Because of stereotypes ffs

gender assigned to them at birth Honestly...noone is 'assigned' anything at birth. Sex is noted.

[user104658]

I would also agree with this. And I used to be (forgive the phrase) a 'corbyn fangirl' pretty much. I thought he was brilliant, I thought he would 'save us'. I am starting to see a very different side to him (and a different side to Momentum also)

I think this is also why the Tories are supporting it all. To win votes that would otherwise go to Labour. With no thought to how it will affect the majority of the population. Very very ill judged, from both parties.

I think too..some people think this is similar to the fight for gay rights. Its not at all. Gay people wanted to be accepted for who they are. They were not proposing taking rights away from another group, they wanted their own rights. This is entirely different. Doesn't help that Stonewall added the T to LGB..which confuses people that little bit more. Ruth Hunt is a ****ing disgrace on this issue, truly. Shes throwing Lesbians especially under the bus. She refuses to comment on the amount of people who would otherwise simply be lesbian adults who are 'transed' as kids. Refuses to comment on the amount of lesbian adults who decide they are actually men so that they do not receive lesbophobic abuse anymore...and so on. She is who should be standing up for the rights of lesbians, being a butch lesbian herself ffs. But no, she won't comment and instead focuses all of her attention on 'trans'. Meanwhile, lesbians are being told they are transphobic for not sucking ladydick and such. Lesbians are deciding they are actually trans to escape the abuse they get as lesbians...more and more kids who would otherwise grow up to be gay are being given puberty blockers then cross sex hormones..and she won't comment at all. Absolutely mental.Ironically, I think that one of the groups that all of this is MOST harmful to is actually transitioned / actively transitioning transsexuals. They are probably seen by one side as being supportive of all of it even if they aren't, and by the other as some sort of "traitor" if they have an opinion that deviates from the one that's prescribed. Can you imagine if a fully transitioned transexual responded to a "transwomen are women baaaah" mantra tweet with "Well, hold on a minute, I didn't consider myself a woman until after reassignment surgery"? They would be utterly slaughtered like some sort of defector.

[Jamie89]

Indeed. personally my view is someone who is actually transsexual using the areas associated with the sex they wish to be is fine. But I don't think this should extend to male bodied people who are simply crossdressers or who do not actually have sex dysphoria. I am fully for 'trans rights' when 'trans' means transsexual, not any bloke who says he is a woman one day. 'Transgender' and 'transsexual' are two very different things.

And yes, there is something sinister about the current transactivist agenda. Honestly, todays transactivists have so much in common with MRAs (the problematic ones...not people actually concerned about the rights of men..there is a difference) that its impossible to ignore.

I don't think transgender and transexual are that seperate. Crossdressing can be a very different thing (although even then there can be crossovers, some people begin by crossdressing without fully acknowledging their trans thoughts/repressing them, and then later transition. And then some people just enjoy crossdressing for reasons that having nothing to do with gender dysphoria or being trans). But with transgender/transexual sometimes the difference can just come down to a transgender person being denied surgical treatment (which does happen - I'm not sure how much though) or through fear of having such extreme surgeries. However much they might feel they are the opposite sex and want to change physically it's such an extreme and frightening thing that it's understandable why not all transgender people transition. Their actual attitudes and who they are inside is often the same as a transexual though. Obviously not always and a lot of transgender people don't want to transition, I'm just saying that isn't always the case.

I would also agree with this. And I used to be (forgive the phrase) a 'corbyn fangirl' pretty much. I thought he was brilliant, I thought he would 'save us'. I am starting to see a very different side to him (and a different side to Momentum also)

I think this is also why the Tories are supporting it all. To win votes that would otherwise go to Labour. With no thought to how it will affect the majority of the population. Very very ill judged, from both parties.

I think too..some people think this is similar to the fight for gay rights. Its not at all. Gay people wanted to be accepted for who they are. They were not proposing taking rights away from another group, they wanted their own rights. This is entirely different. Doesn't help that Stonewall added the T to LGB..which confuses people that little bit more. Ruth Hunt is a ****ing disgrace on this issue, truly. Shes throwing Lesbians especially under the bus. She refuses to comment on the amount of people who would otherwise simply be lesbian adults who are 'transed' as kids. Refuses to comment on the amount of lesbian adults who decide they are actually men so that they do not receive lesbophobic abuse anymore...and so on. She is who should be standing up for the rights of lesbians, being a butch lesbian herself ffs. But no, she won't comment and instead focuses all of her attention on 'trans'. Meanwhile, lesbians are being told they are transphobic for not sucking ladydick and such. Lesbians are deciding they are actually trans to escape the abuse they get as lesbians...more and more kids who would otherwise grow up to be gay are being given puberty blockers then cross sex hormones..and she won't comment at all. Absolutely mental.

We did get accused of trying to take away other peoples rights though during the whole gay marriage thing. For example infringing on peoples right to religion, if a religious person refused to conduct a marriage ceremony for a gay couple. Even that lesbian wedding cake story it was argued that the gay couple were infringing on the religious rights of the cake store owners, same with the gay couple who were refused a room in a b&b.

[Vicky.]

Ironically, I think that one of the groups that all of this is MOST harmful to is actually transitioned / actively transitioning transsexuals. They are probably seen by one side as being supportive of all of it even if they aren't, and by the other as some sort of "traitor" if they have an opinion that deviates from the one that's prescribed. Can you imagine if a fully transitioned transexual responded to a "transwomen are women baaaah" mantra tweet with "Well, hold on a minute, I didn't consider myself a woman until after reassignment surgery"? They would be utterly slaughtered like some sort of defector.

They are. Regularly. There is even a word for them. 'Truscum'. Its disgusting really. and yes, one of the groups its most harmful to is transsexual people who have transitioned. As they are lumped in together with 'gender fluid' entitled dickheads who think putting on a dress one day means they should have access to the womens changing room.

[user104658]

Strangely enough, my autistic 5 year old is VERY "girly" - mores than her older sister - and there's literally no way that it can be by anything other than nature. She's still mostly non-verbal and entirely demand avoidant (i.e. Stubborn as ****, she knows exactly what she wants and when and makes it very clear :joker: ). She simply adores anything girly / sparkly / dresses / princesses / my little pony etc and it's completely untaught. Her learning disability is such that it can ONLY be untaught. Which does make me think that there have to be inherent gender differences that have nothing to do with socialisation because, basically, until she started school she wasnt really socialised beyond a very basic level... And all of her classmates are mostly non-verbal, and she's the only girl. Still girly as they come :shrug:.

[Vicky.]

I don't think transgender and transexual are that seperate. Crossdressing can be a very different thing (although even then there can be crossovers, some people begin by crossdressing without fully acknowledging their trans thoughts/repressing them, and then later transition. And then some people just enjoy crossdressing for reasons that having nothing to do with gender dysphoria or being trans). But with transgender/transexual sometimes the difference can just come down to a transgender person being denied surgical treatment (which does happen - I'm not sure how much though) or through fear of having such extreme surgeries. However much they might feel they are the opposite sex and want to change physically it's such an extreme and frightening thing that it's understandable why not all transgender people transition. Their actual attitudes and who they are inside is often the same as a transexual though. Obviously not always and a lot of transgender people don't want to transition, I'm just saying that isn't always the case.

'Transgender' is used for people who do not actually have sex dysphoria. How can anyone be trans without dysphoria? Transsexual are people with sex dysphoria. Its very different. 'Transgender' is about stereotypes. 'transsexual' is about an actual illness.

I imagine you have seen this before..but all of these people are classed as 'transgender'

https://cursedeblogger.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/kel8rfv.jpg?w=620

Though a lot of transsexual people do not like being associated with the rest. But protesting earns them the 'truscum' label. According to this, I am actually trans, as I am 'agender' so do not have a 'gender identity' and also as I have a mix of stereotypically masculine and stereotypically feminine attributes. So I could go waltzing into the mens changing room to gawp at the penises, and I could cry 'transphobe' at anyone who objects. Its nonsense.



We did get accused of trying to take away other peoples rights though during the whole gay marriage thing. For example infringing on peoples right to religion, if a religious person refused to conduct a marriage ceremony for a gay couple. Even that lesbian wedding cake story it was argued that the gay couple were infringing on the religious rights of the cake store owners, same with the gay couple who were refused a room in a b&b.
But wanting the right to marry is not actually taking away the rights of anyone else. Where declaring men are actually women and as such can enter the female changing rooms or something, IS taking away the rights of women to sex segregated areas.

Religious crap is usually quite bonkers though. But this is actually about taking away the rights of 99.9% of the population. Removing the right to sex segregated areas for both males and females.

[Vicky.]

Strangely enough, my autistic 5 year old is VERY "girly" - mores than her older sister - and there's literally no way that it can be by anything other than nature. She's still mostly non-verbal and entirely demand avoidant (i.e. Stubborn as ****, she knows exactly what she wants and when and makes it very clear :joker: ). She simply adores anything girly / sparkly / dresses / princesses / my little pony etc and it's completely untaught. Her learning disability is such that it can ONLY be untaught. Which does make me think that there have to be inherent gender differences that have nothing to do with socialisation because, basically, until she started school she wasnt really socialised beyond a very basic level... And all of her classmates are mostly non-verbal, and she's the only girl. Still girly as they come :shrug:.
But its just personality really, and personal tastes. My son is into princess dresses at the moment and is always playing with his sisters doll. A few weeks ago he asked my stepdaughter to put makeup on him (she was putting it on Skye) much to the disgust of my husband :laugh: But I said do it..its just a child being a child. My son is not 'transgender'..he just likes pretty sparkly things. Doesn't make him any less a boy

[Kizzy]

What are you even talking about? Do you start a counter opinion by saying "you're totally right!" and then saying something that contradicts it? If you have a counter opinion to someone then of course you believe them to be in the wrong. The alternative is agreement. How bizarre.



No, it doesn't, it makes the woman exactly the same size and strength as before while the man remains stronger and heavier but incapacitated by drugs. I don't know if this is just down to you not actually understanding how date rape drugs work. They DON'T render the victim entirely unconscious, the man is still larger and heavier, and even if they did, how exactly would the woman heave the larger male away to assault him? Its simply not practical and the man being targeted is still a physical threat to the attacking woman. But I wouldn't want to Mansplain the effects of rohypnol to you.

You counter an argument, you can't counter an opinion.... That's where you're going wrong if you feel you can change someones opinion simply by stating yours.

Do you think that once drugged women are firemen lifted off the street? ... Also I thought the point you made was purely based on physical strength as a factor, once drugged people are led away...why are we not hearing of women leading men away?

[Brillopad]

Strangely enough, my autistic 5 year old is VERY "girly" - mores than her older sister - and there's literally no way that it can be by anything other than nature. She's still mostly non-verbal and entirely demand avoidant (i.e. Stubborn as ****, she knows exactly what she wants and when and makes it very clear :joker: ). She simply adores anything girly / sparkly / dresses / princesses / my little pony etc and it's completely untaught. Her learning disability is such that it can ONLY be untaught. Which does make me think that there have to be inherent gender differences that have nothing to do with socialisation because, basically, until she started school she wasnt really socialised beyond a very basic level... And all of her classmates are mostly non-verbal, and she's the only girl. Still girly as they come :shrug:.

It maybe from watching those around her - sister, mum etc or from what she sees on the TV. Stereotypes are everywhere and behaviours can be pretty ingrained before they are even out of nappies.

I remember a son of mine, about 2ish, being quite offended when he thought I had implied he was a girl whilst singing Georgie Porgie to him and exclaimed quite loudly that “I is a boy, not a girl”. Never forget those words it was so funny.

[DemolitionRed]

However I think he has drastically misjudged the situation... It's a very, very small niche that actually thinks this is a good idea. Most I would say are supportive of fully transitioned transgender people using the bathroom they want to use... But the idea that this should be extended to people who are not physically trans is not a popular one at all and is going to alienate a lot of his core voters. The idea has placed feminist and trans rights activists - who would normally stand on the same side of the equality / rights fence on the vast majority of issues - at each other's throats in such a way that I'd say it's almost as if it's by design... "make them fight each other and they won't have time to campaign for anything else".

Up until very recently (from on here) I hadn't even given trans women a thought. If I saw one in a ladies loo I doubt I'd even notice because I don't tend to observe people in ladies toilets. To my knowledge, apart from that club Stunners, I have never spotted a trans female using a public toilet... and I've used many. I believe most people are like me and haven't given it much thought.

As for women who haven't fully transitioned, how would we know? There are women who have fully transitioned who still find it hard to pass as women and there are women who haven't fully transitioned who are very convincing as women.

I think its sad and pathetic that some of these trans have taken it upon themselves to campaign so aggressively. I think its sad to hear people saying 'trans aren't real women and never will be' but then I'm a live and let live person.

One thing I do know for sure is, if one of my sons came to me and told me they wanted to transition into a female, I would accept them and love them and fight with them for that right.

[Jamie89]

'Transgender' is used for people who do not actually have sex dysphoria. How can anyone be trans without dysphoria? Transsexual are people with sex dysphoria. Its very different. 'Transgender' is about stereotypes. 'transsexual' is about an actual illness.

I imagine you have seen this before..but all of these people are classed as 'transgender'

https://cursedeblogger.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/kel8rfv.jpg?w=620

Though a lot of transsexual people do not like being associated with the rest. But protesting earns them the 'truscum' label. According to this, I am actually trans, as I am 'agender' so do not have a 'gender identity' and also as I have a mix of stereotypically masculine and stereotypically feminine attributes. So I could go waltzing into the mens changing room to gawp at the penises, and I could cry 'transphobe' at anyone who objects. Its nonsense.

A transexual has to go through hormone treatment and/or surgery to be considered transexual though do they not? Maybe I'm just overcomplicating things but I'm talking about transgender people who would otherwise be transexual, who are the same in every other way, but for various reasons can't or are afraid to have the treatments and surgeries.

But wanting the right to marry is not actually taking away the rights of anyone else. Where declaring men are actually women and as such can enter the female changing rooms or something, IS taking away the rights of women to sex segregated areas.

Religious crap is usually quite bonkers though. But this is actually about taking away the rights of 99.9% of the population. Removing the right to sex segregated areas for both males and females.

I know this but that's not what a lot religious people would argue. It's much the same thing for me because I don't believe in either case that rights are being taken away (I don't think the 'right' is having a sex segregarted area, the 'right' is having a safe environment, and the difference being that I don't think sex segregation = safety, whereas advocates for sex segration tend to base it on that, so it's a difference in opinion of what actually constitutes safety and whether non segregated areas would actually be less safe... but the actual cause and 'rights' is about safety of women, sex segregation just being a possible means to that.)

[user104658]

You counter an argument, you can't counter an opinion....

You can have an opinion that is the exact opposite of someone else's opinion and therefore believe that opinion to be wrong. You seem quite happy to say that, for example, the opinion that all Muslims should be deported is wrong? Wrong in this context simply meaning "something that you consider morally incorrect". An opinion can also be wrong if it is objectively and statistically incorrect,u usually when someone is claiming that their opinion is fact. Are you sure I haven't been challenging your "facts", rather than your opinions?


That's where you're going wrong if you feel you can change someones opinion simply by stating yours.


Oh. Well I'm not trying to change anyones opinion. But thanks for womansplaining where I'm going wrong to me.

Do you think that once drugged women are firemen lifted off the street? ... Also I thought the point you made was purely based on physical strength as a factor, once drugged people are led away...why are we not hearing of women leading men away?

No I am aware that drugged women are still semi conscious, which is entirely my point, incase you missed it. It's not feasible for a woman to drug and attack a larger, stronger male because - drugged or not - if that male resists or fights back (which drugged women can and do) then the woman who has drugged him is still at a physical disadvantage and probably putting themselves at very real physical risk... As once drugged the person defending the self isn't in full control.

Hiwever I accept that it's much easier to believe that it's simply because "women are nicer and don't want to do such bad things". The sad truth is that a lot of people are trash, and it's not gender specific at all.

[Vicky.]

A transexual has to go through hormone treatment and/or surgery to be considered transexual though do they not? Maybe I'm just overcomplicating things but I'm talking about transgender people who would otherwise be transexual, who are the same in every other way, but for various reasons can't or are afraid to have the treatments and surgeries.
Nope. A transsexual has sex dysphoria., Whatever stage of transition they are at, they are still transsexual. They are obviously not 'post op' transsexual until they have the ops and such, but transsexual just means people with sex dysphoria.



I know this but that's not what a lot religious people would argue. It's much the same thing for me because I don't believe in either case that rights are being taken away (I don't think the 'right' is having a sex segregarted area, the 'right' is having a safe environment, and the difference being that I don't think sex segregation = safety, whereas advocates for sex segration tend to base it on that, so it's a difference in opinion of what actually constitutes safety and whether non segregated areas would actually be less safe... but the actual cause and 'rights' is about safety of women, sex segregation just being a possible means to that.)
I already know we disagree on this so its pointless us keep to-ing and fro-ing about sex segregation tbh :laugh:

I would say that sex segregation IS a means to safety (and dignity) in itself for women* (dignity for men too, not necessarily safety for them) and taking this away is taking away their rights to safety. Women can challenge that shifty looking dude who is hanging around the changing rooms, making it law that any man who declares himself a woman...would mean a woman who challenged this bloke is committing a hate crime.

*given crime stats say men are a danger to women (not all men, and such disclaimer)

[Vicky.]

I don't think anyone posts on here to change others opinions. Indeed most peoples opinions are set in stone anyway. I change opinion occasionally based on something that is brought to my attention, for example I was fully supportive of the 'trans' agenda until I read/thought a little deeper into it and actually listened to lesbians I know who told me what is happening to them regularly, and also listened to transsexual people and how they are treat by the 'transgender' community. I also used to be fully for banning the burkha, and it was people on here that changed my opinion on that too. But usually..I am fairly stubborn. And most people are :p

I see nothing at all wrong with challenging someones opinion. If this did not happen, this section would not exist at all!

[user104658]

Up until very recently (from on here) I hadn't even given trans women a thought. If I saw one in a ladies loo I doubt I'd even notice because I don't tend to observe people in ladies toilets. To my knowledge, apart from that club Stunners, I have never spotted a trans female using a public toilet... and I've used many. I believe most people are like me and haven't given it much thought.

As for women who haven't fully transitioned, how would we know? There are women who have fully transitioned who still find it hard to pass as women and there are women who haven't fully transitioned who are very convincing as women.

I think its sad and pathetic that some of these trans have taken it upon themselves to campaign so aggressively. I think its sad to hear people saying 'trans aren't real women and never will be' but then I'm a live and let live person.

One thing I do know for sure is, if one of my sons came to me and told me they wanted to transition into a female, I would accept them and love them and fight with them for that right.

I think that's probably a good point really, the way it's been campaigned for has done so much more harm than good. It's not a reasoned, genuine appeal for acceptance and understanding... It's a battle cry of aggressive demands, harassment and bullying tactics that realistically isn't going to achieve anything except generate a huge backlash... Which it has. But then, the same is very true of the more radical aspects of 3rd wave feminism that venture too far into being "anti-male", and race equality campaigns that become heavily "anti-white". I understand the anger and passion behind it... However the way it's approached does nothing to improve equality and in fact damages it by creating an opposing side much larger than the one that existed before. There seems to be an idea that, if a group has oppressed or affected another group in some way in the past, it's now time for them to sit back, take their lumps, accept that they deserve it and say nothing about it. In the real world, that is simply never going to happen, and people seriously impact their OWN goals by expecting it. I mean... We have a giant, neon, glowing example of this effect sitting in the damn Whitehouse and people still don't get it.

P.S.
I have never spotted a trans female using a public toilet... and I've used many.

This is a very unusual thing to brag about :joker:

[Jamie89]

Nope. A transsexual has sex dysphoria., Whatever stage of transition they are at, they are still transsexual. They are obviously not 'post op' transsexual until they have the ops and such, but transsexual just means people with sex dysphoria.

Ok fair enough, I think I'm getting myself confused with all the different labels and definitions :/

I already know we disagree on this so its pointless us keep to-ing and fro-ing about sex segregation tbh :laugh:

I would say that sex segregation IS a means to safety (and dignity) in itself for women* (dignity for men too, not necessarily safety for them) and taking this away is taking away their rights to safety. Women can challenge that shifty looking dude who is hanging around the changing rooms, making it law that any man who declares himself a woman...would mean a woman who challenged this bloke is committing a hate crime.

*given crime stats say men are a danger to women (not all men, and such disclaimer)

If a shifty looking man was hanging around the changing rooms and not using them I'd assume he'd still be able to be reported, regardless of how he identifies he'd be reported just for being shifty and hanging around a changing room, it would have nothing to do with gender so I don't think hate crime wouldn't come into that.

I also don't think that sex segregation = privacy/dignity. You can have a non sex segregated area that is cubicled and private, just as you get sex segregated areas that are open and non private. But yeah we probably have already discussed this 3 times already actually :laugh:

[Brillopad]

A transexual has to go through hormone treatment and/or surgery to be considered transexual though do they not? Maybe I'm just overcomplicating things but I'm talking about transgender people who would otherwise be transexual, who are the same in every other way, but for various reasons can't or are afraid to have the treatments and surgeries.



I know this but that's not what a lot religious people would argue. It's much the same thing for me because I don't believe in either case that rights are being taken away (I don't think the 'right' is having a sex segregarted area, the 'right' is having a safe environment, and the difference being that I don't think sex segregation = safety, whereas advocates for sex segration tend to base it on that, so it's a difference in opinion of what actually constitutes safety and whether non segregated areas would actually be less safe... but the actual cause and 'rights' is about safety of women, sex segregation just being a possible means to that.)

I think sex segregation equals ‘safer’ not to mention more comfortable. Nothing is 100% safe but as any man claiming to self-identify can go into the ladies toilets it is less safe for women. Sex attacks on women are a huge problem in Britain, probably most places, and something women have to be aware of and therefore live with all their lives.

Women/girls want to feel safer in that environment and I could not understand why anyone would want to deny them that. They will undoubtedly be at more risk if any man or men can enter the ladies toilets at any time unchallenged.

[Vicky.]

I also don't think that sex segregation = privacy/dignity. You can have a non sex segregated area that is cubicled and private, just as you get sex segregated areas that are open and non private. But yeah we probably have already discussed this 3 times already actually :laugh:

Well yes, I agree with this. But thats not the usual setup in many public places. If every place was to change to full floor to ceiling cubicles and such, then I would have no issue at all with unisex. But to decide that the current setups should be unisex..I disagree with that a lot.

Theres also issues not to do with changing rooms though. Such as prisons. In scotland there are currently male rapists in female prisons. I can't imagine anyone thinks thats right. Yet people will still argue that its wrong to put 'transwomen' with penises in with the men. So...lets just throw them in with women instead?! **** that. if they are unsafe in male prisons, make male prisons safer. Loads of men are at risk in male prisons, smaller men, feminine men, gay men, the lot. Should all of them be moved to female ones for their own safety? (with no thought to the safety of the females) Surely the answer is to work on safety for everyone in the mens prisons...

[Jamie89]

I think sex segregation equals ‘safer’ not to mention more comfortable.

I agree on the discomfort part, I just feel that that's something that would change over time as it's more down to social norms... imo.

Nothing is 100% safe but as any man claiming to self-identify can go into the ladies toilets it is less safe for women. Sex attacks on women are a huge problem in Britain, probably most places, and something women have to be aware of and therefore live with all their lives.

Women/girls want to feel safer in that environment and I could not understand why anyone would want to deny them that. They will undoubtedly be at more risk if any man or men can enter the ladies toilets at any time unchallenged.

The distinction for me I suppose is 'feeling of safety' and actual safety being different things. Obviously we disagree on what constitutes actual safety in this instance, but that doesn't equal a disregard for womens safety as I wouldn't want to deny anybody that.

Well yes, I agree with this. But thats not the usual setup in many public places. If every place was to change to full floor to ceiling cubicles and such, then I would have no issue at all with unisex. But to decide that the current setups should be unisex..I disagree with that a lot.

Theres also issues not to do with changing rooms though. Such as prisons. In scotland there are currently male rapists in female prisons. I can't imagine anyone thinks thats right. Yet people will still argue that its wrong to put 'transwomen' with penises in with the men. So...lets just throw them in with women instead?! **** that. if they are unsafe in male prisons, make male prisons safer. Loads of men are at risk in male prisons, smaller men, feminine men, gay men, the lot. Should all of them be moved to female ones for their own safety? (with no thought to the safety of the females) Surely the answer is to work on safety for everyone in the mens prisons...

I think the issues with safety in prisons is a huge thing in itself. And yes, obviously I'm speaking very generally and about normal everyday situations but as I've said before there are certainly situations where I'm in favour of segregation.

[Kizzy]

You can have an opinion that is the exact opposite of someone else's opinion and therefore believe that opinion to be wrong. You seem quite happy to say that, for example, the opinion that all Muslims should be deported is wrong? Wrong in this context simply meaning "something that you consider morally incorrect". An opinion can also be wrong if it is objectively and statistically incorrect,u usually when someone is claiming that their opinion is fact. Are you sure I haven't been challenging your "facts", rather than your opinions?






No I am aware that drugged women are still semi conscious, which is entirely my point, incase you missed it. It's not feasible for a woman to drug and attack a larger, stronger male because - drugged or not - if that male resists or fights back (which drugged women can and do) then the woman who has drugged him is still at a physical disadvantage and probably putting themselves at very real physical risk... As once drugged the person defending the self isn't in full control.

Hiwever I accept that it's much easier to believe that it's simply because "women are nicer and don't want to do such bad things". The sad truth is that a lot of people are trash, and it's not gender specific at all.

I truly believe that you believe that there aren't more attacks on men by women purely because they aren't strong enough to carry them out... I don't agree you understand but I respect your opinion.

You might believe someones opinion is wrong, throwing all kinds of hypotheticals in the mix to muddy the waters isn't helpful.

What exactly is it you're accusing me of here, I haven't stated anything as fact have I?

[Brillopad]

Ok fair enough, I think I'm getting myself confused with all the different labels and definitions :/



If a shifty looking man was hanging around the changing rooms and not using them I'd assume he'd still be able to be reported, regardless of how he identifies he'd be reported just for being shifty and hanging around a changing room, it would have nothing to do with gender so I don't think hate crime wouldn't come into that.

I also don't think that sex segregation = privacy/dignity. You can have a non sex segregated area that is cubicled and private, just as you get sex segregated areas that are open and non private. But yeah we probably have already discussed this 3 times already actually :laugh:

No disrespect but personally I would feel more comfortable and more safe in an open sex segregated area than in a cubicled non sex segregated area. I think many women would feel the same way.

I also think that people seem to be mainly thinking of young people here and I think we can pretty much take it as a given that both older and elderly women are not going to be at all comfortable about this. I could even see elderly ladies who frequently need the ladies would stop going out if it meant using non sex segregated public toilets. The idea stinks in my opinion.

[DemolitionRed]

Well yes, I agree with this. But thats not the usual setup in many public places. If every place was to change to full floor to ceiling cubicles and such, then I would have no issue at all with unisex. But to decide that the current setups should be unisex..I disagree with that a lot.

Theres also issues not to do with changing rooms though. Such as prisons. In scotland there are currently male rapists in female prisons. I can't imagine anyone thinks thats right. Yet people will still argue that its wrong to put 'transwomen' with penises in with the men. So...lets just throw them in with women instead?! **** that. if they are unsafe in male prisons, make male prisons safer. Loads of men are at risk in male prisons, smaller men, feminine men, gay men, the lot. Should all of them be moved to female ones for their own safety? (with no thought to the safety of the females) Surely the answer is to work on safety for everyone in the mens prisons...

As far as I know, and admittedly, I haven't done much research, there was one rapist who raped two women before transitioning and who was allowed to wander around with women in a female prison. That ended with her harassing female prisoners. That should never of happened, as a former rapist of women, she should of been fully segregated, which in this instance she was, but not until after the event.

If we are going to make male prisons safer, we can make female prisons safer too. Should we for instance put gay male sex offenders in male prisons? the answer is clearly 'yes' but we have a duty of care to other male prisoners.

[DemolitionRed]

No disrespect but personally I would feel more comfortable and more safe in an open sex segregated area than in a cubicled non sex segregated area. I think many women would feel the same way.

Would you be happy to sit knickers down on the pan in front of men and women? I know I wouldn't :hehe:

I also think that people seem to be mainly thinking of young people here and I think we can pretty much take it as a given that both older and elderly women are not going to be at all comfortable about this. I could even see elderly ladies who frequently need the ladies would stop going out if it meant using non sex segregated public toilets. The idea stinks in my opinion.

What's the chance in most towns in the country, of bumping into an obvious transexual in a public toilet. I'm sure little old ladies are the last people to notice. There really isn't that many about. I mean, in the world most of us live in, we are not being plagued by them are we?

It wasn't that long ago that we had the same fear about gay people. People seemed to be under this assumption that gay people were somehow a threat to people of the same sex. They were treated for mental illness. Doctors tried to cure them. They were beaten, threatened, teased and humiliated and male gays were considered a threat to male children :conf:

Now, thank god, people have been educated about gay people. Laws have been put in place to protect gays and give them the same rights as heterosexuals. Gays are no longer seen as sexual deviants. They can get married, and they can adopt a child.

[DemolitionRed]

And here's a question. Anyone here with kids who haven't gone through puberty don't yet know if their kid is going to be transexual. People with older children may not be aware that their son, daughter leads a double life as the alternative sex. How would any of you feel/react as a parent if it was your child who came home one day and told you they were going to transition?

[Brillopad]

Would you be happy to sit knickers down on the pan in front of men and women? I know I wouldn't :hehe:

I also think that people seem to be mainly thinking of young people here and I think we can pretty much take it as a given that both older and elderly women are not going to be at all comfortable about this. I could even see elderly ladies who frequently need the ladies would stop going out if it meant using non sex segregated public toilets. The idea stinks in my opinion.

What's the chance in most towns in the country, of bumping into an obvious transexual in a public toilet. I'm sure little old ladies are the last people to notice. There really aren't that many about.

It wasn't that long ago that we had the same fear about gay people. People seemed to be under this assumption that gay people were somehow a threat to people of the same sex. They were treated for mental illness. Doctors tried to cure them. They were beaten, threatened, teased and humiliated and male gays were considered a threat to male children :conf:

Now, thank god, people have been educated about gay people. Laws have been put in place to protect gays and give them the same rights as heterosexuals. Gays are no longer seen as sexual deviants. They can get married, and they can adopt a child.[/QUOTE]


Are you reading this properly? We are talking about men who pose as transwomen and claim to self-identify as a woman meaning any old perv or worse could come into the ladies loos unchallenged, not actual transwomen. Such a system is open to huge abuse.

You can do what you like but please don’t try and shove your views down my throat or all those women out there who would not be comfortable with it.

[DemolitionRed]

Are you reading this properly? We are talking about men who pose as transwomen and claim to self-identify as a woman meaning any old perv or worse could come into the ladies loos unchallenged, not actual transwomen. Such a system is open to huge abuse.

You can do what you like but please don’t try and shove your views down my throat or all those women out there who would not be comfortable with it.

I'm stating my view, just as you are stating yours. You really shouldn't join in discussions if you can't cope with any resistance to your views.

Edited to say: we are not only talking about perv's dressing in a frock to gain access to a ladies toilet. This topic has gone way beyond that.

[AnnieK]

And here's a question. Anyone here with kids who haven't gone through puberty don't yet know if their kid is going to be transexual. People with older children may not be aware that their son, daughter leads a double life as the alternative sex. How would any of you feel/react as a parent if it was your child who came home one day and told you they were going to transition?

I don't think anyone can answer that question honestly, particularly how they would feel. I have a 7 year old son who I love unconditionally. If he came home telling me he felt he wanted to transition, I would absolutely do everything in my power to get the support and information he needed to begin the journey and support him 100%' HOWEVER, I do not know how I would actually feel about it, I could give you lip service and tell you I would feel nothing or happy etc....but I honestly don't know. I would hope there is a support network for any parent facing this with their children too as it affects the lives of anyone close to a transitioning person. They have to change their whole perceptions too.

[Vicky.]

As far as I know, and admittedly, I haven't done much research, there was one rapist who raped two women before transitioning and who was allowed to wander around with women in a female prison. That ended with her harassing female prisoners. That should never of happened, as a former rapist of women, she should of been fully segregated, which in this instance she was, but not until after the event.

If we are going to make male prisons safer, we can make female prisons safer too. Should we for instance put gay male sex offenders in male prisons? the answer is clearly 'yes' but we have a duty of care to other male prisoners.

Well yes, as they are male :suspect:

Even if a rapist raped a male person, they should not be in with females, as they are not female. Equally if a woman raped a man, or another woman..they should still be in with the women as they are female. if they are a danger to those around them, segregate them. Don't shift them to the prison of the opposite sex, thats insane! Its not to do with sexuality, its to do with sex.

There are a fair few transwomen in female prisons. Something like 100 in the country.

What is interesting (though makes total sense really) is that there are no transmen fighting to be in with the men. Its always transwomen wanting to be with the women.

[Brillopad]

I'm stating my view, just as you are stating yours. You really shouldn't join in discussions if you can't cope with any resistance to your views.

Edited to say: we are not only talking about perv's dressing in a frock to gain access to a ladies toilet. This topic has gone way beyond that.

Really. Putting the potential safety issues aside for a minute, Why is it that some people always seem to put the views of women born as women at the bottom of the pile. We are entitled to our views, our comfort and our privacy the same as anyone else. Are we always expected to put the feelings of other groups before our own because we are women - constantly expected to sacrifice our own quality of lives for others. No.

This is very unpopular with good reason and people need to stand their ground and stand up for their own rights here. No one has the right to force this on millions of women - this is actually a policy to benefit the few rather than the many. The complete opposite to what red JC is supposed to stand for. Absolute hypocritical boll****.

[Vicky.]

And here's a question. Anyone here with kids who haven't gone through puberty don't yet know if their kid is going to be transexual. People with older children may not be aware that their son, daughter leads a double life as the alternative sex. How would any of you feel/react as a parent if it was your child who came home one day and told you they were going to transition?

Wouldn't bother me as such, but like hell would I be putting them on blockers. Blockers are dangerous and as I said earlier, a self fulfilling prophecy. If my kid said they were trans, I would get them counseling (though thanks to transactivists, there is not much counseling available beyond 'affirmation') if needed. And I would know that there was a very large chance they would simply grow out of it. And that they are very likely to simply be gay as adults. If they did not grow out of it, then take it as it comes.

No way would I be setting my kid up for a lifetime of medical intervention and telling them lies that its actually possible to change sex. I would be signposting them, to sites such as https://4thwavenow.com/ and not letting them use the internet unsupervised...as once the transactivists get their claws into them they fill their heads full of rubbish such as 'transition or die'...throw about false suicide statistics, and basically tell them to ignore their parents as their parents are transphobic and encourage girl children to use 'binders' (which again, cause damage) and so on.

It genuinely is like a cult.

[Vicky.]

Also this https://lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2017/11/06/my-first-article-a-mums-voyage-through-transtopia/

Very powerful story of quite how dangerous transactivists are once they get their claws into poor gender questioning kids.

I would deal with it exactly the same way Lily Maynard did. Long posts, but for anyone who has a bit of time to spare and fancies a long read :laugh:

[Jamie89]

It wasn't that long ago that we had the same fear about gay people. People seemed to be under this assumption that gay people were somehow a threat to people of the same sex. They were treated for mental illness. Doctors tried to cure them. They were beaten, threatened, teased and humiliated and male gays were considered a threat to male children :conf:

Now, thank god, people have been educated about gay people. Laws have been put in place to protect gays and give them the same rights as heterosexuals. Gays are no longer seen as sexual deviants. They can get married, and they can adopt a child.

That's a really good point. The fear of gay men being around children being a cause to expect safety issues of gay men being around children. I'm sure many people really did (and some still do) believe that those expectations were totally founded based on news reports and legitimate sources etc. And not even pedophilia but the fear that children might become gay if exposed to or influenced by gay people.
A family friend of mine who's now in his late 60s is gay and when he was in his 20s his best friend at the time had a baby, and although they remained friends he was never allowed to see the child just because he was gay. Seems unbelievable something like that happening now. That they'd remain close friends but it was just a normal thing for him that his friend wouldn't let him around his kid. And I'm sure his friend only had the best interests and the safety of his child in mind (however ****ed up his logic actually was).

[DemolitionRed]

I don't think anyone can answer that question honestly, particularly how they would feel. I have a 7 year old son who I love unconditionally. If he came home telling me he felt he wanted to transition, I would absolutely do everything in my power to get the support and information he needed to begin the journey and support him 100%' HOWEVER, I do not know how I would actually feel about it, I could give you lip service and tell you I would feel nothing or happy etc....but I honestly don't know. I would hope there is a support network for any parent facing this with their children too as it affects the lives of anyone close to a transitioning person. They have to change their whole perceptions too.

Thanks, I probably phrased that question incorrectly. I should of probably asked how you think you'd react.

I have a close friend who went through this with her then 16 year old daughter. As a child she was very girly but she became quite boyish around puberty and then went on to suffer massive depressive bouts and even attempted suicide. When he (and I call him 'he' because that's what I believe he is) told his parents, they, just like you say you would, fully supported him but they both had to go for therapy because, and this is what their therapist told them, they had to go through the grieving process of saying goodbye to their only daughter.

I think I would feel anxious. Anxious because of what they had ahead of them. The stigma, the rejection, not only from the public but from their extended family and friends. I would also morn the lost hope of future grandchildren. You're right, there is a grieving process for parents, even those who fully support the transition.

[Vicky.]

I don't think anyone can answer that question honestly, particularly how they would feel. I have a 7 year old son who I love unconditionally. If he came home telling me he felt he wanted to transition, I would absolutely do everything in my power to get the support and information he needed to begin the journey and support him 100%' HOWEVER, I do not know how I would actually feel about it, I could give you lip service and tell you I would feel nothing or happy etc....but I honestly don't know. I would hope there is a support network for any parent facing this with their children too as it affects the lives of anyone close to a transitioning person. They have to change their whole perceptions too.

Unfortunately parents are signposted to 'Mermaids'. Mermaids is a pressure group who fling around doctored suicide statistics and they tell parents that their kid will kill themselves without blockers and such. A mother on mumsnet was telling us all about her experiences with mermaids, and basically it sounds absolutely horrendous. One of the Mermaids staff members actually came onto the thread and doxxed the poor woman who was talking to us all about it! Very professional. The leader of Mermaids took her kid to Thailand at 16 for SRS, because the laws here say this cannot be done til 18. They also encourage parents to buy hormones off the internet to give to their children if they cannot get a prescription for 'blockers'

Not long ago, a court actually ordered Mermaids to stay the hell away from a kid they were trying to 'trans'. But the NHS keeps recommending them for some odd reason...

More about Mermaids

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mermaids-uk-charity-ban-as-boy-forced-to-live-as-girl-dvx3j99cn
A taxpayer-funded transgender charity has been banned by the High Court from any contact with a family after the mother, who was being advised by the group, forced her seven-year-old son to live as a girl.

The latest accounts for Mermaids UK, published last week, reveal it has been granted £35,000 by the Department for Education (DfE) and a total of £138,000 by the national lottery’s Awards for All fund and the BBC’s Children in Need appeal.

It can also be revealed that until last week Mermaids was advertising “same day” cross-sex hormone treatment for children. NHS guidelines do not allow the treatment, which causes irreversible bodily changes and can compromise fertility, for anyone under 16.

In a court case, reported last year, Mr Justice Hayden removed the seven-year-old child, known as “J”, from his mother after finding she had caused him “significant emotional harm” and “pressed [him] into a gender identification that had far more to do with his mother’s needs and little, if anything, to do with his own”.

Social services had declined to act against the woman, saying she had “appropriately taken on board support from . . . Mermaids”. However, the judge accused social workers of “summarily disregarding” many concerns expressed by police and healthcare professionals about J because they “did not wish to appear to be challenging an emerging orthodoxy in such a high-profile issue”.

J was home-schooled and was dressed in girls’ clothes, the judgment found. After being removed from his mother, sent to live with his father and sent to school, he had “assert[ed] his own masculine gender” and lived life as a boy.

At the time, Mermaids attacked the “horrific decision”, insisted J wanted to be a girl and said there was “no evidence at all to support this judge’s views”.

Yet in separate Facebook posts it has now emerged that the charity admitted it had been “ordered to have nothing to do with this child following their removal”.

Until last Friday the youth section of the Mermaids website featured a message from Dr Birgit Möller, a Hamburg-based doctor, offering fast-track trans-sex hormone treatment for children. “If the families are interested we would set up a long evaluation appointment at our clinic (3-4 hours) and afterwards an appointment with the endocrinologist [hormone specialist],” Möller wrote. “In case of an indication for hormone treatment he would prescribe it the same day.”

The message was removed after The Sunday Times asked Mermaids about it.

Stephanie Davies-Arai, founder of Transgender Trend, a website for parents questioning the diagnosis and treatment of children as transgender, said: “I am concerned that Mermaids is indoctrinating children, scaring parents into thinking that [gender] transition is the only way and intimidating professionals.”

The DfE said it did not fund Mermaids directly but as one of 13 “partner” groups in an anti-bullying alliance.

Mermaids claimed last night that it was not the subject of the court order and that it was the family that had been ordered to have no contact with it.

Had to copy text as times is subscription only (I actually have a subscription now because they are the only paper willing to report on this topic properly and unbiased)


And more on doctored suicide stats

https://fairplayforwomen.com/mermaids-tg-lying-unprofessional

[DemolitionRed]

Well yes, as they are male :suspect:

Even if a rapist raped a male person, they should not be in with females, as they are not female. Equally if a woman raped a man, or another woman..they should still be in with the women as they are female. if they are a danger to those around them, segregate them. Don't shift them to the prison of the opposite sex, thats insane! Its not to do with sexuality, its to do with sex.

There are a fair few transwomen in female prisons. Something like 100 in the country.

What is interesting (though makes total sense really) is that there are no transmen fighting to be in with the men. Its always transwomen wanting to be with the women.

But male rapists shouldn't be in with men either. They should at the very least be segregated.

I think most trans women want to be with women because they feel they are a woman. I also think most trans men would feel very intimidated in a male prison because regardless of how well their transitions gone, they will still be vulnerable to male predators.

[Vicky.]

Thanks, I probably phrased that question incorrectly. I should of probably asked how you think you'd react.

I have a close friend who went through this with her then 16 year old daughter. As a child she was very girly but she became quite boyish around puberty and then went on to suffer massive depressive bouts and even attempted suicide. When he (and I call him 'he' because that's what I believe he is) told his parents, they, just like you say you would, fully supported him but they both had to go for therapy because, and this is what their therapist told them, they had to go through the grieving process of saying goodbye to their only daughter.

I think I would feel anxious. Anxious because of what they had ahead of them. The stigma, the rejection, not only from the public but from their extended family and friends. I would also morn the lost hope of future grandchildren. Your right, there is a grieving process for parents, even those who fully support the transition.
what do you mean 'became quite boyish?' Started being more stereotypically masculine?

I would say there is a fairly large chance that this person is just a butch lesbian. Possibly with internalized homophobia. better to be a strsight man than a gay women.

Maybe they actually are trans. But so often it all comes down to stereotypes, its quite scary.

Obviously this is quite personal, but did this person actually have sex dysphoria? And how long ago was this? Without adding identifying info is it possible to tell us how this ended up Sorry for all of the questions.

The topic just fascinates me and horrifies me in equal measure. Partly because I am near certain if I had been born 20 years later than I was, I would be a 'transkid' today as I was totally gender non-conforming (still am) and if I was told there was a way to stop puberty, I would have taken it like a shot tbh. I would now be sterile. And an imitation of a man, which I know I would not be happy with at all. And theres no way for anyone to go back on the decision, if puberty is blocked then cross sex hormones start after this. I find it amazing that we let kids as young as 10 (or younger in some cases) make this huge decision that will affect them for the rest of their lives. And that any parent who protests is branded transphobic D:

[Vicky.]

But male rapists shouldn't be in with men either. They should at the very least be segregated.

I think most trans women want to be with women because they feel they are a woman. I also think most trans men would feel very intimidated in a male prison because regardless of how well their transitions gone, they will still be vulnerable to male predators.

But they are not a woman, regardless of what they think they are.

I think they mainly want in with the women as they know a female prison is likely to be safer and 'easier', and in some cases for access to more victims tbh. British Association of Gender Identity Specialists agree with me too it seems. Cocnerns have already been raised on this issue.

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/gender-identity-specialists-warn-of-ever-increasing-tide-of-transwoman-sex-offenders/

Full PDF here - http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.pdf

Basically the only way to keep everyone as safe as possible, is to segregate the 'transwomen' who feel they should be in with the women for safety reasons. This keeps them safe, and also does not make the women unsafe.

[DemolitionRed]

Also this https://lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2017/11/06/my-first-article-a-mums-voyage-through-transtopia/

Very powerful story of quite how dangerous transactivists are once they get their claws into poor gender questioning kids.

I would deal with it exactly the same way Lily Maynard did. Long posts, but for anyone who has a bit of time to spare and fancies a long read :laugh:

I read the link and I agree, there is a cult out there and perhaps because its now so easy to be whatever sex you like, kids are getting confused.

The bit that jumped out at me is when mum said to Jessie, “Do you think Beth really sees you as a boy?” which clearly threw Jessie.

There are plenty of masculine lesbians looking for more feminine lesbians. Of course, those feminine lesbians wouldn't be interested if their masculine looking girlfriend had a sex change or even declared herself to be male. There was clearly some massive confussion but that one question mum asked was the turning point for Jessie. I found that part quite emotional... not sure why :hee:

We do though, have to accept that there are some very genuine transgenders and there are people who get caught up in this 'fetish' style cult. For the genuine ones, we surely need to show some understanding and acceptance and I'm not talking about those driving the wheels of activism but those, like my friends son who has just married his pansexual boyfriend and who appears to be happy, at last. I honestly think the genuine ones just want a quite life and it would be a great shame if we ended up tarring them all with the same brush.

[DemolitionRed]

But they are not a woman, regardless of what they think they are.

I think they mainly want in with the women as they know a female prison is likely to be safer and 'easier', and in some cases for access to more victims tbh. British Association of Gender Identity Specialists agree with me too it seems. Cocnerns have already been raised on this issue.

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/gender-identity-specialists-warn-of-ever-increasing-tide-of-transwoman-sex-offenders/

Full PDF here - http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/women-and-equalities-committee/transgender-equality/written/19532.pdf

Basically the only way to keep everyone as safe as possible, is to segregate the 'transwomen' who feel they should be in with the women for safety reasons. This keeps them safe, and also does not make the women unsafe.

I'm just replying to your first sentence because that's the bit that jumped out at me. Remember when, in that article, mums therapist called Jessie 'he' and mum said it felt like she'd just been kicked in the stomach? Don't you think that's what transgenders feel every time someone insists on using 'he' instead of 'she'?

[DemolitionRed]

That's a really good point. The fear of gay men being around children being a cause to expect safety issues of gay men being around children. I'm sure many people really did (and some still do) believe that those expectations were totally founded based on news reports and legitimate sources etc. And not even pedophilia but the fear that children might become gay if exposed to or influenced by gay people.
A family friend of mine who's now in his late 60s is gay and when he was in his 20s his best friend at the time had a baby, and although they remained friends he was never allowed to see the child just because he was gay. Seems unbelievable something like that happening now. That they'd remain close friends but it was just a normal thing for him that his friend wouldn't let him around his kid. And I'm sure his friend only had the best interests and the safety of his child in mind (however ****ed up his logic actually was).

Gay people really did suffer. Thank goodness we don't live in that world anymore!

[Vicky.]

I read the link and I agree, there is a cult out there and perhaps because its now so easy to be whatever sex you like, kids are getting confused.

The bit that jumped out at me is when mum said to Jessie, “Do you think Beth really sees you as a boy?” which clearly threw Jessie.

There are plenty of masculine lesbians looking for more feminine lesbians. Of course, those feminine lesbians wouldn't be interested if their masculine looking girlfriend had a sex change or even declared herself to be male. There was clearly some massive confussion but that one question mum asked was the turning point for Jessie. I found that part quite emotional... not sure why :hee:

We do though, have to accept that there are some very genuine transgenders and there are people who get caught up in this 'fetish' style cult. For the genuine ones, we surely need to show some understanding and acceptance and I'm not talking about those driving the wheels of activism but those, like my friends son who has just married his pansexual boyfriend and who appears to be happy, at last. I honestly think the genuine ones just want a quite life and it would be a great shame if we ended up tarring them all with the same brush.
Of course there are genuine transsexuals (sorry I refuse to use transgender, given how near every person on earth comes under the 'umbrella' and that I don't think anyone who does not have sex dysphoria is 'trans') and these people need support and understanding. I just feel there is a huge social contagion going on right now. And that giving kids 'puberty blockers' is really really wrong. As is basically telling children who do not conform to sex stereotypes that this means they actually are the opposite sex. There is also an extremely homophobic undertone to it all. That loads of people seem willing to overlook.

I don't think blockers should even be legal, tbh. I don't know how they are, especially given how little research has gone into it all...and I especially do not see how groups such as mermaids are allowed to keep peddling this lie that they are harmless and its just 'to give people time' and they are fully revesrible. When all evidence shows that its NOT to give people time at all as once on them, noone changes their minds. When not on them, the majority change their minds. They are reversible in theory, but clearly not in practice

[DemolitionRed]

what do you mean 'became quite boyish?' Started being more stereotypically masculine?

I would say there is a fairly large chance that this person is just a butch lesbian. Possibly with internalized homophobia. better to be a strsight man than a gay women.

Maybe they actually are trans. But so often it all comes down to stereotypes, its quite scary.

Obviously this is quite personal, but did this person actually have sex dysphoria? And how long ago was this? Without adding identifying info is it possible to tell us how this ended up Sorry for all of the questions.

The topic just fascinates me and horrifies me in equal measure. Partly because I am near certain if I had been born 20 years later than I was, I would be a 'transkid' today as I was totally gender non-conforming (still am) and if I was told there was a way to stop puberty, I would have taken it like a shot tbh. I would now be sterile. And an imitation of a man, which I know I would not be happy with at all. And theres no way for anyone to go back on the decision, if puberty is blocked then cross sex hormones start after this. I find it amazing that we let kids as young as 10 (or younger in some cases) make this huge decision that will affect them for the rest of their lives. And that any parent who protests is branded transphobic D:

He was never a lesbian. He has married a pansexual man. Before the transition he was diagnosed as bi-polar. Since his transition that diagnosis has been removed.

[Vicky.]

He was never a lesbian. He has married a pansexual man. Before the transition he was diagnosed as bi-polar. Since his transition that diagnosis has been removed.

Ah right. Seems transition was actually the right choice for him then. For some it is. I just really don't think 'transition' should be hailed the wonder treatment, when its really not. And the suicide stats peddled relentlessly...well major studies done ionto this actually show that post-transition, the suicide rate of trans people rises to even higher than it ever was before transition :S

Definitely an area that needs to be looked into more, and different treatments considered rather than being branded 'transphobic'. I find it extremely odd how transactivists like to bury the fact that there are a lot of detransitioners, and try to block any studies into detransitioners too. when obviously, the more is understood about this illness, the better. Like all illnesses tbh.

[DemolitionRed]

Of course there are genuine transsexuals (sorry I refuse to use transgender, given how near every person on earth comes under the 'umbrella' and that I don't think anyone who does not have sex dysphoria is 'trans') and these people need support and understanding. I just feel there is a huge social contagion going on right now. And that giving kids 'puberty blockers' is really really wrong. As is basically telling children who do not conform to sex stereotypes that this means they actually are the opposite sex. There is also an extremely homophobic undertone to it all. That loads of people seem willing to overlook.

I don't think blockers should even be legal, tbh. I don't know how they are, especially given how little research has gone into it all...and I especially do not see how groups such as mermaids are allowed to keep peddling this lie that they are harmless and its just 'to give people time' and they are fully revesrible. When all evidence shows that its NOT to give people time at all as once on them, noone changes their minds. When not on them, the majority change their minds. They are reversible in theory, but clearly not in practice

I don't think blockers should be legal either. Initially they sounded like a good thing but I did read your links and I'm with you on this.
I'm not sure about the homophobic undertone, can you explain that a bit more? Oh hang on, I think the penny just dropped! You mean, a trans man (for example) doesn't feel he's a lesbian when he dates women?

[DemolitionRed]

Ah right. Seems transition was actually the right choice for him then. For some it is. I just really don't think 'transition' should be hailed the wonder treatment, when its really not. And the suicide stats peddled relentlessly...well major studies done ionto this actually show that post-transition, the suicide rate of trans people rises to even higher than it ever was before transition :S

Definitely an area that needs to be looked into more, and different treatments considered rather than being branded 'transphobic'. I find it extremely odd how transactivists like to bury the fact that there are a lot of detransitioners, and try to block any studies into detransitioners too. when obviously, the more is understood about this illness, the better. Like all illnesses tbh.

But that could be from lack of acceptance in society? I mean, come on, lots of People snigger when they see a trans female in Asda.

[Vicky.]

I don't think blockers should be legal either. Initially they sounded like a good thing but I did read your links and I'm with you on this.
I'm not sure about the homophobic undertone, can you explain that a bit more? Oh hang on, I think the penny just dropped! You mean, a trans man (for example) doesn't feel he's a lesbian when he dates women?
You know how if no blockers are used, then 80-95% of gender questioning kids 'grow out of it'? Well the majority of those who grow out of it turn out to be gay. So the rush to use blockers is homophobic, in that its basically gay eugenics.

Also yes, internalized homophobia in transmen who are simply lesbian but feel more accepted as a straight man.

And also (a huge issue at the moment) the amount of 'lesbian' 'transwomen'. Straight males (with intact penises) who say they are lesbians. And yell 'transphobe' at any lesbian who says they don't shag male people. I actually thought this was just an internet phenomenon until I 'came out' as gender critical to friends...and every one of my lesbian friends said they had came up against this in real life, in the past year or so. Never before this, but very often recently.

[Vicky.]

But that could be from lack of acceptance in society? I mean, come on, lots of People snigger when they see a trans female in Asda.

Could be. But surely, before any transition the same lack of acceptance was there? So makes no sense how the suicide rate rises after transition.

But either way it is another thing that needs looked into thoroughly IMO.

We will never understand it, if all studies and such are blocked because 'transphobia'. It is not transphobic to want to understand something more, the causes, the cures, the symptoms, the lot.

[DemolitionRed]

You know how if no blockers are used, then 80-95% of gender questioning kids 'grow out of it'? Well the majority of those who grow out of it turn out to be gay. So the rush to use blockers is homophobic, in that its basically gay eugenics.

Also yes, internalized homophobia in transmen who are simply lesbian but feel more accepted as a straight man.

And also (a huge issue at the moment) the amount of 'lesbian' 'transwomen'. Straight males (with intact penises) who say they are lesbians. And yell 'transphobe' at any lesbian who says they don't shag male people. I actually thought this was just an internet phenomenon until I 'came out' as gender critical to friends...and every one of my lesbian friends said they had came up against this in real life, in the past year or so. Never before this, but very often recently.

The transwomen who come on to lesbians are more than ridiculous. They are living in a delusional world and need to go and have a word with themselves.

Vicky, I agree this is a recent phenomenon and clearly a problem. I don't dispute for a second (after reading your links) that there is a disturbing cult going on and because our children have internet access, getting pulled into such cults is a concern all parents should have. I also think we need to separate environmental influences from genetic ones.

Intersex states aren't always visible. When I was doing my nursing training, I did my stint on the gynae ward. A young woman had been brought in because she had a closed vagina and needed to be sedated and examined properly. It turned out she was a full hermaphrodite with no visible external signs. She'd obviously been raised as a girl but she was a lesbian and she was very butch.

We still know so little about how the brain works. I mean, we know gayness isn't just a sexual thing but we don't really know why one child will grow up to be gay when all his/her siblings are straight. We don't know why some women who grow up in happy families decide to have early hysterectomies as birth control and we don't know why some people 'really' do want to change their gender and live very happy lives once they have.

[Vicky.]

I genuinely do not get why intersex is always brought up in conversations about transgender. They are nothing to do with each other. Also a LOT of intersex support organizations and intersex people have requested that transactivists stop trying to conflate the two to make out that 'trans' is a kind of 'intersex'. Which it is not. But transactivists continue (so maybe this is why its often brought up in conversations about 'transgender', the purposeful blurring of lines by the people controlling the narrative..). Like they keep making out that the existence of intersex disorders mean that there is a 'spectrum' of sexes. Which is clearly silly.

Heres one of the statements of such groups (androgen insensitivity is very often brought up by transactivists) .. http://www.aissg.org/21_OVERVIEW.HTM#Terminology

And the shoddy behaviour of 'GIRES' trying to link trans and intersex - http://www.aissg.org/15_ANNOUNCE.HTM#14%20May%202000


True we still know relatively little about the brain. I find neuroscience amazing tbh. Like how a brain scan can tell you if a person is anorexic. And also how a taxidrivers brain shows up different to a non-taxi driver...because of the brains plasticity. Apparently your brain actually changes based on your own experiences... Fully prepared for if the day comes that science can tell us true pink and blue brains do exist, I will accept it if proven, obviously. I really doubt that will happen though tbh. Much more likely is neuroscientists being able to tell if someone actually has sex dysphoria from a brain scan (much like they can tell anorexics and various mental illnesses for example) rather than them actually having the brain of the opposite sex :laugh:

[Vicky.]

For anyone interested in the original thread topic ( :laugh: ) I mentioned in the OP that Lily had been part of a bullying campaign against woman in the same post, before lily got the womens officer job himself (in another CLP)

The woman who had to resign because of the bullying from Lily and another male, was Anne Ruzylo. She was accused of transphobia. For caring about females, in this whole ****storm

Here is a speech she recently did on this issue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lhma9kbQKXk


Other women who spoke included Helen Steel (McLibel/spycops case, if the names familiar with you) whos speech is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9sGJOKmoIg&app=desktop
And Linda Bellos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec0mG6B6b9M

Those vids are like nearly an hour of youtube watching though, doubt anyone will watch it all. I seem the only one quite so obsessed with the topic on here, but a hell of a lot of decent points are made in them :joker: