19 year old male elected as labours womens officer

[Vicky.]

They helped to get a previous womens officer removed for 'transphobia' (officially the person resigned, but after a huge smear campaign against her). The transphobia was basically saying that female people have different life experiences to male people and have different needs. Being gender critical and thinking that men are not women is not transphobia.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-officials-quit-in-transgender-row-06qtj2b3r?shareToken=080f8be84918d6bd0b1c343ae147a 9a9
It is alleged that an unnamed fellow party member, who is a male supporter of the transgender activists but not transgender himself, has repeatedly tried to prevent Ms Ruzylo from voicing her concerns as a women’s officer at local Labour meetings. He is also accused of blocking her from taking part in discussions in online party forums and branded her a “Terf”— a derogatory term that stands for “trans exclusionary radical feminist” — in online forums for local Labour members.

Ms Ruzylo has also been the subject of three complaints accusing her of “transphobia”.

One of the complaints was made by Lily Madigan, a transgender teenager from Kent who made headlines last year when she threatened to sue her school for not letting her wear a female uniform. She demanded the immediate removal of Ms Ruzylo from her post and her suspension from the Labour Party, despite the fact that they were not from the same constituency. Ms Madigan, who was born male but identifies as a woman, said that she wanted Ms Ruzylo to be removed because she was offended by the “transphobic” tone of her personal Twitter account.

Last night Ms Madigan stood by her view and accused Ms Ruzylo of undermining “the Labour Party’s strong trans-equality policy.”

They have now been elected into the same position that they got an actual female sacked from. Despite being a 19 year old male person.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenager-lily-madigan-voted-in-as-a-labour-women-s-officer-mwchkhzq8?shareToken=472df23aa6315582a4f6558d7a1be 5ba

“Firstly, trans-women are women, women who are vastly more under-represented than most. We haven’t even had a transgender MP yet,” she said, adding that her “goal is to be the first one”. “Like most women, I’m a feminist. They aren’t mutually exclusive issues, far from it. I would argue strongly that all appeals to biology are anti-feminist. We can’t challenge the view we are limited by our biology in one breath and use the biology argument against trans women in the next.”

Feminist indeed. Removing a female from their position for looking out for the rights of females, and taking a job thats meant to be for ****ing females when actually male. Yes, saying we are 'limited' by our biology is wrong as being male or female does not stop one doing what they wish to do on the whole, or dressing how they want to dress. This does not mean biology is irrelevant and males are females, or vice versa. Its not anti-feminist to point out that males and females have their own separate issues that do not affect the other group. And that sex is relevant in many areas of life.

Misogynistic prick too by all accounts. Here is one of his youtube videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6N_bv3BMgA&app=desktop

Being a woman is all about makeup and pretty things, yet again basically. Nothing to do with, you know, being female :rolleyes: Females are just hysterical and transphobic for not wanting people with dicks in the loos, changing rooms and such. As you know, having a dick does not mean one is not female (save the intersex replies please, its incredibly rare and nothing to do with trans)

Labour are dangerous close to losing my vote over this issue. Not just this appointment but a general view of this topic. I know Labour are liberal by nature. But they genuinely seem to not be able to see that this ideology is both misogynistic and homophobic overall :(

At least Jess Phillips seems to get it. I am hoping she can convince the rest of the MPs
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3090459-Labour-MP-Jess-Phillips-being-attacked-on-Twitter-for-her-reasonable-approach-to-gender-bill?pg=1

Check the replies to jess' tweet. Death threats galore. And a cult-like chant of 'transwomen ARE women'. Bull. Woman is an adult human female, and I am sick of trying to be polite on this matter tbh.

https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/931093574011191296

Cannot believe only the times dare to report on this. Its pathetic really.

[Niamh.]

A 19 year old boy representing womens needs ...................oy vey

[Vicky.]

For clarity, the womans officer is to deal with matters such as (copied from PoppyJ1 on mumsnet https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3091663-lily-madigan-tim-elected-labour-women-s-officer?pg=1)

Menstrual health
Pregnancy
Childbirth
Miscarriage
Stillbirth
Abortion
FGM
Pay gap (often based on perception of reproductive capacity)
Misogyny
Breastfeeding
Hysterectomy

Which of these is a male person likely to have suffered, or understand in depth? Especially a 19 year old male person who thinks biology is irrelevant in all areas of life and to say sex matters is transphobic?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Menstrual health
Pregnancy
Childbirth
Miscarriage
Stillbirth
Abortion
FGM
Pay gap (often based on perception of reproductive capacity)
Misogyny
Breastfeeding
Hysterectomy



Not the Truth's Google searches finally being released under the freedom of information act?

:omgno

[Niamh.]

Menstrual health
Pregnancy
Childbirth
Miscarriage
Stillbirth
Abortion
FGM
Pay gap (often based on perception of reproductive capacity)
Misogyny
Breastfeeding
Hysterectomy



Not the Truth's Google searches finally being released under the freedom of information act?

:omgno

:laugh:

[arista]

Too young
Vicky

[bots]

to be fair, he is more qualified for the role than Dianne Abbot is for hers :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

to be fair, he is more qualified for the role than Dianne Abbot is for hers :laugh:

:joker:

[arista]

to be fair, he is more qualified for the role than Dianne Abbot is for hers :laugh:


He has nor been on DP . BBC2HD
yet............................................... ...............

[Oliver_W]

to be fair, he is more qualified for the role than Dianne Abbot is for hers :laugh:

So is Donald Trump.

[Vicky.]

Sorry I genuinely am starting to agree with others who say the labour party is a joke. I have been a lifelong labour supporter and a huge supporter of corbyn (as many on her eknow) but this issue is really really pissing me off.

Also, because of searches about this..I have learnt more about what Momentum actually do and are. I always thought they were just supporters of Corbyn, not a bully group. Thought those saying the latter were just being silly. I am now hoping for someone who is actually strong (and ****ing sensible, educated in basic biology would help too) to challenge Corbyn before the next election. I don't feel I can vote for Labour in its current condition. And would never ever vote Tory as they are just as bad on this issue, and also pretty evil when it comes to the disabled.

[Oliver_W]

Does Momentum have any official connection to Corbyn? Sure, they are trash, but do you want to stop supporting a politician you like over his followers?

[Vicky.]

Does Momentum have any official connection to Corbyn? Sure, they are trash, but do you want to stop supporting a politician you like over his followers?

Its not just his followers, its his views also. He has 'drank the koolaid' more than anyone else. He refuses to define 'woman' yet claims males are females too. Its ****ing bonkers. I genuinely do feel this is THE issue to be concerned about right now. And all parties are letting me down. ****ing hell even the womans equality party says males are as much a woman as females. I feel I have fallen down a rabbit hole or something reading so many supposed intelligent people being so stupid.

[Vicky.]

I think I am in love with Hadley Freeman :laugh:

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2017/nov/20/tiaras-navigate-gender-minefield-tabloid-hysteria-kids-antiquated-stereotypes?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Specifically

Any man – and I have seen many online – who thinks he is proving his liberal credentials by shouting down women talking about these fears really needs to have a good long look at himself. Because this behaviour is – dare I point out the obvious? Dare I? – hideously patriarchal.

LBC’s James O’Brien helpfully provided a doozy of an example last week, when a woman called in to his show to discuss gender and, after a discussion about the clothing choices of toddlers, O’Brien proceeded to make the conversation entirely about himself.

“Why would you feel uncomfortable getting changed in the room next to me?” he demanded.

“Because you’re a man,” she responded.

“What do you think I’m going to do? What are you worried about?” he asked. Because nothing proves women have nothing to fear from men than a man insisting he should be allowed to get naked next to her.

When the caller provided some statistics on voyeurism and an example of a male predator in a woman’s changing room, O’Brien called her “obsessed” and “paranoid” and claimed that all this fuss over changing rooms was silly because “every time you’re out in public, you’re at risk of sexual assault”. Yes, James, women are aware of that, and maybe that’s why many of them are concerned about taking their clothes off next to men?

This is what i think of Corbyn and his views tbh. Obviously anti-female. Its anti-female to say any male is a female, tbh. Totally disregarding how females were oppressed in general for thousands of years. And still are in many respects. Men attack women on a depressingly regular basis, especially sexually. To say women scared of this are 'transphobic' is profoundly anti-female. Owen ****ing Jones (someone I have regularly championed until recently) take note.

[Vicky.]

More on the james obrien thing, and sex segregation being very much needed here

https://fairplayforwomen.com/james-obrien-topshop

In the UK where women have sex segregation, only 10% of sex crime (98% of which is committed by men, 90% of the victims of which are female) is opportunistic. In India, where there is no sex segregation, 90% of sex crime is opportunistic. The women’s liberation movement campaigned for single sex spaces so that women could have a PUBLIC LIFE. Read up on the history of the first women’s public toilet in London. Women were beaten in the streets for wanting that because women’s place was in the home. We are entitled to go about our lawful business without harassment from men, we are allowed to SAY NO TO PENIS in our private spaces. Traumatized women, raped women, religious women, lesbian women, shy women, teenage girls are ALLOWED BOUNDARIES. It’s not about you in the cubicle next to us, it’s about MEN. If you are denying that men are committing epidemic levels of violence and depravity against women and girls, all over the world, you are deluded. You might not be a violent man James, but you still benefit from women’s fear of all the men that are – sex attackers don’t wear a badge! Your lack of awareness of this fact has a name, feminists call it ‘male privilege’.

[bots]

do the research on Momentum Vicky and you can make your own mind up about them. People can argue till blue in the face, but the facts are all freely available.

[Oliver_W]

do the research on Momentum Vicky and you can make your own mind up about them. People can argue till blue in the face, but the facts are all freely available.

She has researched Momentum, and didn't like what she found.

[Northern Monkey]

I do agree with you on the subject as a whole but that mums net thread(what i read of it)is packed full of misandrists too.They moan about being called ‘TERF SCUM’ while making sweeping generalisations about men as a whole.I think they’d get more male support if they dropped that stuff.
They call these trans people a cult while all agreeing and back patting each other.
There is a sense of irony that some of the more radical feminists/misandrists are getting back what they’ve been dishing out to men for so long.That’s certainly not to say that all feminists are misandrists.There are many moderates too.
I do agree though that there definitely seems to be some almost unresolvable problems between the self identifying trans people and womens roles and spaces.
Two ‘progressive’worlds are colliding.
The thing is that trans issues should’nt outweigh more than fifty percent of the populations rights.

[Vicky.]

I will stick up for the womens rights posters on mumsnet here and say that when they say men they tend to mean 'as a class' rather than all men. And its quite right that men (as a class) love talking over women.

I don't think acknowledging the systematic oppression of women by men makes one a misandrist. This obviously does not mean all men oppress women, but its ridiculous to deny that women are oppressed on the whole because of their female biology and the fact that biology also means we are weaker and the ones who bear children. And its those of the sex that sire children and are stronger and larger that do the oppressing of the other group.

This is pretty basic feminism tbh :S Acknowledging these facts, however uncomfortable this makes you.

[Northern Monkey]

I will stick up for the womens rights posters on mumsnet here and say that when they say men they tend to mean 'as a class' rather than all men. And its quite right that men (as a class) love talking over women.

I don't think acknowledging the systematic oppression of women by men makes one a misandrist. This obviously does not mean all men oppress women, but its ridiculous to deny that women are oppressed on the whole because of their female biology and the fact that biology also means we are weaker and the ones who bear children. And its those of the sex that sire children and are stronger and larger that do the oppressing of the other group.

This is pretty basic feminism tbh :S Acknowledging these facts, however uncomfortable this makes you.

The issue there though with using language infering that ‘men are the problem’ is if you generalise like that about any other ‘class’ in society(except white People) I.E ‘women are the problem’,’muslims are the problem’,’trans people are the problem’ then you’re shouted down as sexist,racist,transphobic etc etc.
What makes feminists above being called out for the same generalising language?
That kind of stuff can just alienate male readers instead of making them more sympathetic.

[Vicky.]

The issue there though with using language infering that ‘men are the problem’ is if you generalise like that about any other ‘class’ in society(except white People) I.E ‘women are the problem’,’muslims are the problem’,’trans people are the problem’ then you’re shouted down as sexist,racist,transphobic etc etc.
What makes feminists above being called out for the same generalising language?
That kind of stuff can just alienate male readers instead of making them more sympathetic.

If there was overwhelming evidence that on any issue 'Muslims' or 'trans people' were the problem, I would have non issue with this being said?

When speaking of violence, and specifically sexual violence, you cannot deny that it is a very male issue on the whole. When talking of sex based oppression, you cannot deny that it has been (and is) males oppressing females by whatever means, not the other way around.

I do believe in 'male privilege' tbh. Sue me.

[Northern Monkey]

If there was overwhelming evidence that on any issue 'Muslims' or 'trans people' were the problem, I would have non issue with this being said?

When speaking of violence, and specifically sexual violence, you cannot deny that it is a very male issue on the whole. When talking of sex based oppression, you cannot deny that it has been (and is) males oppressing females by whatever means, not the other way around.

I do believe in 'male privilege' tbh. Sue me.

It’s really no different though.It could be argued that Islamic terrorism is a muslim problem and trans activists are a trans problem.

As for male privilege my opinion is that males could possibly be privileged in certain areas but then so are women.I’d say it’s pretty equal these days.Men and women are different and prosper in different areas and are oppressed in different ways too.

[Withano]

The job needed to go to someone though? Maybe they was the most qualified applicant? Men can learn about womens rights and laws etc too :shrug:

You kinda plucked out something controversial that was said, and suggested they dont deserve their title cos of your views on what was said.. but you surely understand that just as many (probably more) agree with what they said and disagree with what the previous officer said? I dont think thats a valid reason to exclude them, what was said is controversial - nobody will please everybody on a topic like that.

If they have a job of womens officer, then they should be thinking of m2f women too - like thats just logical.

[Oliver_W]

Vicky, you like Magdalen Berns - in one of her videos, I believe she said transwomen assault women at the exact same rate as other males, but I can't remember the exact quote or context, and if she sourced it, any ideas?

[Vicky.]

Vicky, you like Magdalen Berns - in one of her videos, I believe she said transwomen assault women at the exact same rate as other males, but I can't remember the exact quote or context, and if she sourced it, any ideas?
https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/statistics-show-the-difference-in-rates-of-violent-crimes-against-women-committed-by-transwomen-versus-non-transgender-males/

Also in prison, transwomen are massively over represented.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners

Which leads me to conclude, that being a trans actually INCREASES the risk of sex offending. Rather than decreases, as is usually claimed by activists

[Vicky.]

The job needed to go to someone though? Maybe he was the most qualified applicant? Men can learn about womens rights and laws etc too :shrug:

You kinda plucked out something controversial that was said, and suggested he doesnt deserve his title cos of your views on what was said.. but you surely understand that just as many (probably more) agree with what he said and disagree with what the previous officer said? I dont think thats a valid reason to exclude him, what was said is controversial - nobody will please everybody on a topic like that.

If he has a job of womens officer, then he should be thinking of m2f women too - like thats just logical.

MtF is not a woman. A MtF is a transwoman. Large difference. And transwomen have their own issues, entirely separate from those of females. Given this person has already decided biology is irrelevant, he is clearly unfit to be anyone to represent female issues. Given you know, biology is the reason for female oppression and that.

Withano, I know you pride yourself on being liberal, but please read this, specifically directed at left wing men who think telling women that male people are also women is fine

https://medium.com/@GappyTales/dear-men-on-the-left-f20fbf6272cf

Covers so many of the issues I see in this.

[Withano]

MtF is not a woman. A MtF is a transwoman. Large difference. And transwomen have their own issues, entirely separate from those of females. Given this person has already decided biology is irrelevant, he is clearly unfit to be anyone to represent female issues.

But a transwomans officer isn't a job? Perhaps it should be, but until then....

Obviously when theyre discussing abortions, they wont be thinking about transwomen, but they also wont be thinking about infertile or celibate women either, so I'm not sure what the issue is. Not every woman will be directly relevant to every single aspect of the womens officers job description.. but thats okay. I think the idea is more that they will be covered somewhere, and there is a person who will work to think of them when and where they are concerned.

[Denver]

Best result

[Vicky.]

No surprise that men think this is fine. Sorry to stereotype but it is odd that it seems to be mainly men who see no issue with this.

[Vicky.]

Not every woman will be directly relevant to every single aspect of the womens officers job description.. but thats okay.

But no aspects of this job are relevant to a male?

No every aspect will not be relevant to every woman. But they will understand it more, you know, being of the class of women. Not the class of...men.

[Vicky.]

I don't understand how to link the original tweet..my link is going to replies?

But it seems this guy has also put himself forward for the Jo Cox women in leadership program. thats meant to be about...increasing women in leadership roles. Not a surprise.

https://twitter.com/rachelherriotts/status/932696251237269506

Scroll up

[Withano]

Oh wait, your title suggested it was an actual male who got the job? Its an m2f trans person?

I'll be honest, I'm more fine with it now than before now.

Like I just assumed it was a guy who was a bit of a feminist and studied up on the issues and laws. This makes way more sense

[Oliver_W]

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/statistics-show-the-difference-in-rates-of-violent-crimes-against-women-committed-by-transwomen-versus-non-transgender-males/

Also in prison, transwomen are massively over represented.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners

Which leads me to conclude, that being a trans actually INCREASES the risk of sex offending. Rather than decreases, as is usually claimed by activists
It's probably more to do with opportunism than because they're trans, as your source points out opportunistic rapes happen more often in places with no sex segregation.

More on the james obrien thing, and sex segregation being very much needed here

https://fairplayforwomen.com/james-obrien-topshop

[Vicky.]

It's probably more to do with opportunism than because they're trans, as your source points out opportunistic rapes happen more often in places with no sex segregation.

Yup maybe. Even more reason for keeping sex segregated areas sex segregated tbh. And for not putting male people into female prisons, where they would have even more oppurtunity as the females literaly cannot get away from them.

Either way, all evidence points to 'transwomen' retaining a male pattern of offense. At the least

[Vicky.]

Oh wait, your title suggested it was an actual male who got the job? Its an m2f trans person?

I'll be honest, I'm more fine with it now than before now.

Like I just assumed it was a guy who was a bit of a feminist and studied up on the issues and laws. This makes way more sense

You were already fine with it

[Niamh.]

Oh wait, your title suggested it was an actual male who got the job? Its an m2f trans person?

I'll be honest, I'm more fine with it now than before now.

Like I just assumed it was a guy who was a bit of a feminist and studied up on the issues and laws. This makes way more senseNo offence but you're a man it's not men it effects so it's irrelevant if you're fine with it or not

[Withano]

You were already fine with it

Yeh - but in a 'well fair enough' type way, they applied for the job and got it which implied they were the best for the role - even without the literal experience of living as a woman, just assumed they were gonna make up for that lack of exp with extra research and studying or something, but now, most of that changes.

[Withano]

No offence but you're a man it's not men it effects so it's irrelevant if you're fine with it or not

Should have been specified that they only wanted opinions from females in the OP then - I didn't know?

[MB.]

btw Vicky you might also want to decide whether you want to call transwomen transwomen, 'transwomen' in inverted commas, or men, as you've been switching between all three in this thread

[Vicky.]

I did not only want answers from females. But its impossible to ignore that the most vocal transactivists are male people. And that overwhelmingly its males who have no issue at all with the erasure of women. And thats what it is, lets be honest. For example, highest grossing trilogy by a female is currently the matrix brothers who have decided they are women, first woman on the frontline is male, jenner is woman of the year and so on. And its always transwomen (males) yelling about wanting to put themselves and their penis into female changing rooms, or wanting transfers to womens prisons. Transactivists are on the whole, angry males with entitlement issues, also narcisistsic and refusing to see any possible issues to opening female areas up to all males. Why is this? Maybe because, not being women, they do not care that men are (on the whole) a danger to women. And as such see no problem with men being mixed with women in vulnerable situations

Not having lived as an actual woman, you are not really qualified on womens issues. And no 'living as a woman' does not mean wearing makeup and dresses. It means being ****ing female. Its mysoginistic bull**** to say men are women just because they say they are and follow stereotypes.

[Vicky.]

btw Vicky you might also want to decide whether you want to call transwomen transwomen, 'transwomen' in inverted commas, or men, as you've been switching between all three in this thread

Transwomen are both transwomen and male. Didnt realise I had said men :S

I should really start using 'trans identified males' instead. Makes much more sense.

[Northern Monkey]

Bet nobody knew it was International mens day yesterday.

Female privilege:fist:

[Niamh.]

Should have been specified that they only wanted opinions from females in the OP then - I didn't know?I didn't start the thread :shrug:

[Northern Monkey]

I did not only want answers from females. But its impossible to ignore that the most vocal transactivists are male people. And that overwhelmingly its males who have no issue at all with the erasure of women. And thats what it is, lets be honest. For example, highest grossing trilogy by a female is currently the matrix brothers who have decided they are women, first woman on the frontline is male, jenner is woman of the year and so on. And its always transwomen (males) yelling about wanting to put themselves and their penis into female changing rooms, or wanting transfers to womens prisons. Transactivists are on the whole, angry males with entitlement issues, also narcisistsic and refusing to see any possible issues to opening female areas up to all males. Why is this? Maybe because, not being women, they do not care that men are (on the whole) a danger to women. And as such see no problem with men being mixed with women in vulnerable situations

Not having lived as an actual woman, you are not really qualified on womens issues. And no 'living as a woman' does not mean wearing makeup and dresses. It means being ****ing female. Its mysoginistic bull**** to say men are women just because they say they are and follow stereotypes.I totally agreed with your post until the ‘men are on the whole a danger to women’.Most men are not.Some sick bastards are.

[Withano]

I did not only want answers from females. But its impossible to ignore that the most vocal transactivists are male people. And that overwhelmingly its males who have no issue at all with the erasure of women. And thats what it is, lets be honest. For example, highest grossing trilogy by a female is currently the matrix brothers who have decided they are women, first woman on the frontline is male, jenner is woman of the year and so on. And its always transwomen (males) yelling about wanting to put themselves and their penis into female changing rooms, or wanting transfers to womens prisons. Transactivists are on the whole, angry males with entitlement issues, also narcisistsic and refusing to see any possible issues to opening female areas up to all males. Why is this? Maybe because, not being women, they do not care that men are (on the whole) a danger to women. And as such see no problem with men being mixed with women in vulnerable situations



I'll be honest, this seems like a different issue entirely, has zero relevance to the OP surely?

Not having lived as an actual woman, you are not really qualified on womens issues. And no 'living as a woman' does not mean wearing makeup and dresses. It means being ****ing female. Its mysoginistic bull**** to say men are women just because they say they are and follow stereotypes.
And not to play teams, but honestly, I dont think many people think this way anymore. Seems super outdated. Not all trans people are stereotypes? I feel like you know that too.

[Vicky.]

I totally agreed with your post until the ‘men are on the whole a danger to women’.Most men are not.Some sick bastards are.

On the whole. As in, as a class. Not each individual man :p I do believe there are many many more decent men than bad ones. But I cannot deny that men, on the whole, are a danger to women.

[Withano]

I didn't start the thread :shrug:

I knew that yeh... but if Vicky thought mens opinions on the topic were irrelevant (she didnt) then she should have said in the OP.. but she didn't.. so can I discuss this or?

[Vicky.]

I'll be honest, this seems like a different issue entirely, has zero relevance to the OP surely?Its an extension of the same issue. I may have gone off on a rant, but its true.


And not to play teams, but honestly, I dont think many people think this way anymore. Seems super outdated. Not all trans people are stereotypes? I feel like you know that too.

Think what way? That male and female are actually real things? And that each group has their own needs entirely seperate from the other group?

And yes, it is mostly about stereotypes with 'transgender' people.

Not transsexual people though, who actually have sex dysphoria. Who are not the ones insting that they ARE women.

Do you know how wide the 'trans umbrella' is now? Trans no longer means transsexual. No dysphoria is necessary, and its transphobic to suggest that it is. Or that trans is about 'born in the wrong body'.

[Niamh.]

I knew that yeh... but if Vicky thought mens opinions on the topic were irrelevant (she didnt) then she should have said in the OP.. but she didn't.. so can I discuss this or?You don't need my permission to discuss it, my opinion though was that as a man it won't effect you so you being fine with it is kind of irrelevant imo

[Jamie89]

The job needed to go to someone though? Maybe they was the most qualified applicant? Men can learn about womens rights and laws etc too :shrug:

You kinda plucked out something controversial that was said, and suggested they dont deserve their title cos of your views on what was said.. but you surely understand that just as many (probably more) agree with what they said and disagree with what the previous officer said? I dont think thats a valid reason to exclude them, what was said is controversial - nobody will please everybody on a topic like that.

If they have a job of womens officer, then they should be thinking of m2f women too - like thats just logical.

This tbh. Do we know anything about his competence in the role? Or is that not important?

[Withano]

Its an extension of the same issue. I may have gone off on a rant, but its true.



Think what way? That male and female are actually real things? And that each group has their own needs entirely seperate from the other group?

And yes, it is mostly about stereotypes with 'transgender' people.

Not transsexual people though, who actually have sex dysphoria. Who are not the ones insting that they ARE women.

Tbf, and tell me if I'm wrong.. but it sounds like you're suggesting there should be a job specifically for trans rights? (If theyre not covered under their preferred pronouns' rights.. cos like otherwise youre suggesting they shouldnt have anybody covering their rights?). And I'd agree, that would make more sense to me.

But idk what that has got to do with this person having that job - doesnt seem mutally exclusive to me. They got that job cos they were the best person for it.

[Vicky.]

You don't need my permission to discuss it, my opinion though was that as a man it won't effect you so you being fine with it is kind of irrelevant imo

The whole trans issue won't affect many men, which is honestly why I think its gained such traction in such a short space of time. I find the way to effectively 'wake men up' to this issue is to bring their female relatives into it. If you ask a man if he has an issue with men changing next to women he will on the whole say no, as men aren't dangerous. Ask him if he would be fine with his daughter/mother/wife getting changed and a bloke walking in and getting naked next to her, he will be enraged. Not all men of course. But every man I have spoke to about this saw no issue until I tailored it to people in his family. Then suddenly he 'got it' and why its not right.

Not saying all men would not get why its problematic. Just the men I have spoke to about this don't seem to, until I go a little deeper into what its about.

[Withano]

The whole trans issue won't affect many men, which is honestly why I think its gained such traction in such a short space of time. I find the way to effectively 'wake men up' to this issue is to bring their female relatives into it. If you ask a man if he has an issue with men changing next to women he will on the whole say no, as men aren't dangerous. Ask him if he would be fine with his daughter/mother/wife getting changed and a bloke walking in and getting naked next to her, he will be enraged. Not all men of course. But every man I have spoke to about this saw no issue until I tailored it to people in his family. Then suddenly he 'got it' and why its not right.

Not saying all men would not get why its problematic. Just the men I have spoke to about this don't seem to, until I go a little deeper into what its about.

I'm absolutely fine with any person who identifies as a female changing next to a female relative. I'm absolutely fine with any person who identifies as a male changing next to a male relative.

I'm less fine with a trans person who identifies as male changing next to a female relative and vice versa.

I know there are some hazy lines that some are uncomfortable with, but I think thats the general jist of the way the worlds going.

[Vicky.]

Tbf, and tell me if I'm wrong.. but it sounds like you're suggesting there should be a job specifically for trans rights? (If theyre not covered under their preferred pronouns' rights.. cos like otherwise youre suggesting they shouldnt have anybody covering their rights?). And I'd agree, that would make more sense to me.

But idk what that has got to do with this person having that job - doesnt seem mutally exclusive to me. They got that job cos they were the best person for it.

Indeed. Transwomens issues are not really womens issues, and womens issues are not tranwomans issues. It is wrong to appoint a transwoman as basically a spokesperson for women. They are not the same, not even of the same sex.

It should be noted here, that this person passed up the LGBT officer job, specifically to go for the womens officer.

[Withano]

Indeed. Transwomens issues are not really womens issues, and womens issues are not tranwomans issues. It is wrong to appoint a transwoman as basically a spokesperson for women. They are not the same, not even of the same sex.

It should be noted here, that this person passed up the LGBT officer job, specifically to go for the womens officer.

Still.. that job doesnt exist atm, this is the next most logical thing, no?

[Vicky.]

I'm absolutely fine with any person who identifies as a female changing next to a female relative. I'm absolutely fine with any person who identifies as a male changing next to a male relative.

I'm less fine with a trans person who identifies as male changing next to a female relative and vice versa.

I know there are some hazy lines that some are uncomfortable with, but I think thats the general jist of the way the worlds going.

You are fine with a male person changing next to a female relative? Taking trans out of the equation, this is what you are saying here. So you disagree with sex segregation then?

[Vicky.]

Still.. that job doesnt exist atm, this is the next most logical thing, no?

LGBT officer job was passed up. Thats surely more relevant to a trans identified male than a womans officer job is.

[Withano]

LGBT officer job was passed up. Thats surely more relevant to a trans identified male than a womans officer job is.

Depends on their specific qualities, training, interests etc. No point being an lgbt officer if you dont know anything about gay rights for example

[Vicky.]

Depends on their specific qualities, training, interests etc. No point being an lgbt officer if you dont know anything about gay rights for example

No point being a womans officer if you know nothing about womens rights, or lives.

Fairly sure a trans person would be well versed in trans issues. Though you are right, LGBT rights is probably wrong for them, given if they really think biology is irrelevant as they claim they do, then that erases same sex attraction alltogether.

[Withano]

No point being a womans officer if you know nothing about womens rights, or lives.



I agree, I suppose the main difference is I'm assuming the best person for the job got employed (out of those who applied), whilst you're assuming this cant be possible and that any random person off the street who was born with a vaj would be better

[Vicky.]

I agree, I suppose the main difference is I'm assuming the best person for the job got employed (out of those who applied), whilst you're assuming this cant be possible and that any random person off the street who was born with a vaj would be better

I am assuming a woman would be best placed for this position. Not 'any random person with a vag'.

Same as I would not think a straight 'cis' person would be right for the role of LGBT officer

Or a white person in a position about black peoples rights.

[Vicky.]

Or do you think a white person would be suited to a role about black peoples rights if they knew a bit about black people and their struggles? Would this be fine? I think not, somehow. I definitely would not think so...regardless of how much the white person said they knew about black people.

Maybe this is where we are getting mixed up.

[Withano]

I am assuming a woman would be best placed for this position. Not 'any random person with a vag'.

Same as I would not think a straight 'cis' person would be right for the role of LGBT officer

Or a white person in a position about black peoples rights.

Oh yh, I disagree with all of that tbf. Passion, reasearch, an interest, ambition etc can make up the difference imo. Best person for the job should get employed, straight people shouldnt be excluded from applying to be an lgbt officer just because(?) etc etc.

It would be a desirable quality to fit the bill on paper I'm sure, but to exclude people just because(?) or to only include people of a certain persuasion in the interview process(?)* seems daft. If the best person for the job isn't reflective of the people they represent, why would you hire the 2nd or 3rd best instead of the actual best person?

*also, I think the equal opportunities act would make that illegal

[Vicky.]

Oh yh, I disagree with all of that tbf. Passion, reasearch, an interest, ambition etc can make up the difference imo. Best person for the job should get employed, straight people shouldnt be excluded from applying to be an lgbt officer just because(?) etc etc.

It would be a desirable quality to fit the bill on paper I'm sure, but to exclude people just because(?) seems daft. If the best person for the job isn't reflective of the people they represent, why would you hire the 2nd or 3rd best instead of the actual best person?

OK I see why we are arguing on this then. I really do think that something thats specifically about the rights of one group...the representative should be from that group. I don't see how any amount of research and passion can outweigh lived experience.

[Vicky.]

*also, I think the equal opportunities act would make that illegal

There are exceptions to the act. Not sure exactly what but I know for example, a rape crisis counselor for women...the post can specify that a female person gets it.

[AnnieK]

I find this worrying too.....more on an age issue than sex though. A 19 year old has no where close to the life experience to hold this type of role imo

[Jamie89]

Oh yh, I disagree with all of that tbf. Passion, reasearch, an interest, ambition etc can make up the difference imo. Best person for the job should get employed, straight people shouldnt be excluded from applying to be an lgbt officer just because(?) etc etc.

It would be a desirable quality to fit the bill on paper I'm sure, but to exclude people just because(?) or to only include people of a certain persuasion in the interview process(?)* seems daft. If the best person for the job isn't reflective of the people they represent, why would you hire the 2nd or 3rd best instead of the actual best person?

*also, I think the equal opportunities act would make that illegal

Also in this specific case, Lily was elected wasn't she? So it's not as though some person just decided to hire her, she was elected by the public. Surely they must have felt represented by her if they elected her?

[Withano]

Also in this specific case, Lily was elected wasn't she? So it's not as though some person just decided to hire her, she was elected by the public. Surely they must have felt represented by her if they elected her?

Aw I didn't know this

Why dont you like democracy Vicky :fist:

[Vicky.]

Also in this specific case, Lily was elected wasn't she? So it's not as though some person just decided to hire her, she was elected by the public. Surely they must have felt represented by her if they elected her?

You realise, the public includes males who would see no issue with this? And may actually find it funny to have a male in such a position.

I didnt know he was elected actually. But even so, he should not be up for the position to start with. IMO

[Jamie89]

You realise, the public includes males who would see no issue with this? And may actually find it funny to have a male in such a position.

I didnt know he was elected actually. But even so, he should not be up for the position to start with. IMO

I disagree that men are far more accepting about transpeople than women, and to the extend that womens voices in this election wouldn't have been heard. I don't actually know any stats on that tbh so I'm open to being proved wrong, but just from personal experience and people I've known I've found women to be generally more accepting of trans people than men. It would be interesting to know the ratio of men to women that voted for Lily in this election. I also doubt that enough voters would cast their vote out of humour to make any impact. You're not really giving credit to people's ability to make an informed decision, what do we know about Lily's qualifications? What do we know about her competence within the role? Aren't these important factors?

Also Vicky i totally get your opinions on pronoun usage etc when it comes to trans people but the thread title does make this discussion really confusing, a lot of people won't read all the posts and links etc.

[Vicky.]

Aw I didn't know this

Why dont you like democracy Vicky :fist:

I don't tbh in roles that are specifically about one group. My opinions would be identical if there was a position about gay rights and a straight person getting it, trans rights and a 'cis' person getting it, mens rights and a female person getting it...and so on.

[Vicky.]

I disagree that men are far more accepting about transpeople than women, and to the extend that womens voices in this election wouldn't have been heard. I don't actually know any stats on that tbh so I'm open to being proved wrong, but just from personal experience and people I've known I've found women to be generally more accepting of trans people than men. It would be interesting to know the ratio of men to women that voted for Lily in this election. I also doubt that enough voters would cast their vote out of humour to make any impact. You're not really giving credit to people's ability to make an informed decision, what do we know about Lily's qualifications? What do we know about her competence within the role? Aren't these important factors?

Also Vicky i totally get your opinions on pronoun usage etc when it comes to trans people but the thread title does make this discussion really confusing, a lot of people won't read all the posts and links etc.

We know that he thinks biology is irrelevant tbh. We also know he counts male people as women given his emphasis on 'transwomen'. Thats enough to say he is not qualified for the role. Its like appointing someone into a position about gay rights, and them immediately saying that sexuality is irrelevant and straight people have problems too. Its nonsense.

I dont see how me referring to this person as he makes the thread confusing? I said in the title this is a male person. He is a male person.

[Jamie89]

We know that he thinks biology is irrelevant tbh. We also know he counts male people as women given his emphasis on 'transwomen'. Thats enough to say he is not qualified for the role. Its like appointing someone into a position about gay rights, and them immediately saying that sexuality is irrelevant and straight people have problems too. Its nonsense.

I dont see how me referring to this person as he makes the thread confusing? I said in the title this is a male person. He is a male person.

She seems to believe that gender identity isn't determined by biological sex, but looking at the role description of the Womens Officer I fail to see how that belief would conflict with her carrying out the role, regardless of if you agree with that belief? It seems to be more about engaging with and recruiting women into the party rather than working on womens rights?

I got it from here...

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/labourclp96/pages/1278/attachments/original/1445544799/Job_Description_-_CLP_Womens_Officer.pdf?1445544799

I just think that she must have had some sort of manifesto or something that people voted based on and isn't her competance in the role the most important thing, and surely if this role is about the person connecting with the public then having someone democratically elected by them is the best way? Yes men will have been able to vote as well but without knowing voter stats it's impossible to say that the women who voted in this constituency wouldn't have wanted Lily for the role.

The pronoun thing, I was confused myself at first because I didn't realise the issue was that it was a transgender person, which is obviously what sparked the debate, like I said I get your stance on it and wanting to refer to her as him and I wasn't wanting to get into a debate about that, I just thought that if I was confused, maybe other people might be confused, maybe clarity about what the actual issue is would be helpful, that's all. Or maybe it was just me that was confused for not reading it fully at first lol.

[Withano]

No I was confused too, I thought Vicky was talking about a trans woman who practically pushed a woman out of the job for a different man (in every sense of the word) to get the job afterwards.

[Vicky.]

A male joined forces with another male to bully a lesbian woman out of her role as womans officer, then took the role of womans officer themselves. Is that better?

[Jamie89]

Like I said I wasn't trying to start a debate about the pronouns it was just a suggestion to make things a bit less confusing that's all, my main point is the stuff I posted about the competence of the person carrying out the role.

[Vicky.]

And gender identity is utter bollocks. People can not 'feel male' or 'feel female'. They just are male or female. One can have absolutely no idea of how the other 'feels' anymore than a human can know how a donkey feels. They may be feminine or masculine, neither of which has anything to do with sex really.

Though as an athiest, I don't believe in souls anyway. So don't believe any of the 'born in the wrong body' stuff anyway. Which is lucky as 'born in the wrong body' is transphobic these days anyways :) As are most beliefs that differ in any way from from 'transwomen are female and transmen are male' and 'biology is irrelevant'

[Jamie89]

And gender identity is utter bollocks. People can not 'feel male' or 'feel female'. They just are male or female. One can have absolutely no idea of how the other 'feels' anymore than a human can know how a donkey feels. They may be feminine or masculine, neither of which has anything to do with sex really.

My point with mentioning gender identity though was that it isn't a factor in any of this because although Lily has an opposing view to yours, that view doesn't conflict with the responsibilities of this role?

[Vicky.]

Part of the role, is to sort out womens issues. Not just recruit women to the party.

[Jamie89]

Part of the role, is to sort out womens issues. Not just recruit women to the party.

The only thing I really have to go on is the link I posted before so I'm not really sure what this pertains to?

[Vicky.]

Just realised, your link specificaly states 'The women’s officer must be a woman.'

[Vicky.]

Also they were not elected by the general public, and it looks increasingly like they won because they were a Momentum member.

[Brillopad]

They helped to get a previous womens officer removed for 'transphobia' (officially the person resigned, but after a huge smear campaign against her). The transphobia was basically saying that female people have different life experiences to male people and have different needs. Being gender critical and thinking that men are not women is not transphobia.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-officials-quit-in-transgender-row-06qtj2b3r?shareToken=080f8be84918d6bd0b1c343ae147a 9a9


They have now been elected into the same position that they got an actual female sacked from. Despite being a 19 year old male person.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenager-lily-madigan-voted-in-as-a-labour-women-s-officer-mwchkhzq8?shareToken=472df23aa6315582a4f6558d7a1be 5ba



Feminist indeed. Removing a female from their position for looking out for the rights of females, and taking a job thats meant to be for ****ing females when actually male. Yes, saying we are 'limited' by our biology is wrong as being male or female does not stop one doing what they wish to do on the whole, or dressing how they want to dress. This does not mean biology is irrelevant and males are females, or vice versa. Its not anti-feminist to point out that males and females have their own separate issues that do not affect the other group. And that sex is relevant in many areas of life.

Misogynistic prick too by all accounts. Here is one of his youtube videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6N_bv3BMgA&app=desktop

Being a woman is all about makeup and pretty things, yet again basically. Nothing to do with, you know, being female :rolleyes: Females are just hysterical and transphobic for not wanting people with dicks in the loos, changing rooms and such. As you know, having a dick does not mean one is not female (save the intersex replies please, its incredibly rare and nothing to do with trans)

Labour are dangerous close to losing my vote over this issue. Not just this appointment but a general view of this topic. I know Labour are liberal by nature. But they genuinely seem to not be able to see that this ideology is both misogynistic and homophobic overall :(

At least Jess Phillips seems to get it. I am hoping she can convince the rest of the MPs
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3090459-Labour-MP-Jess-Phillips-being-attacked-on-Twitter-for-her-reasonable-approach-to-gender-bill?pg=1

Check the replies to jess' tweet. Death threats galore. And a cult-like chant of 'transwomen ARE women'. Bull. Woman is an adult human female, and I am sick of trying to be polite on this matter tbh.

https://twitter.com/jessphillips/status/931093574011191296

Cannot believe only the times dare to report on this. Its pathetic really.

Utter rubbish. People can keep Corbyn’s crazy labour ideology. The prospect of a government like that getting into power is madness - full of total crackpots. :shrug:

[Kizzy]

to be fair, he is more qualified for the role than Dianne Abbot is for hers :laugh:

A sexist comment followed by the obligatory joker .....oy vey.

[Cherie]

This is quite a read, apart from anything else is a 19 year old whatever sex they are qualified to hold this office, you would have thought some life experience would be required for this post?

[user104658]

Abortion

Misogyny

Pay gap
Menstrual health
FGM
Pregnancy
Miscarriage
Stillbirth
Childbirth
Breastfeeding
Hysterectomy



Not the Truth's Google searches finally being released under the freedom of information act?


I've re-ordered it. Now it's a to do list. ... ....

[joeysteele]

Personally my view is that if I wished to know anything as to things concerning only and affecting women Then I'd ask women.

So for me this is an unwise appointment even moreso as to the age too.

As to crackpots however to the generalisation of fit to govern.
I would say the UK has a great number of likely crackpots already governing it now.

For me this appointment is unwise however

[Niamh.]

Just realised, your link specificaly states 'The women’s officer must be a woman.'

Sounds logical to me.

[Livia]

A sexist comment followed by the obligatory joker .....oy vey.

A little cultural misappropriation there. I'll overlook it for the sake of the thread, though.

I have known several Women's Officers in various jobs. I have never met one who is male. It's hilarious really. I mean, think of the face of the average 19 year old male when the conversation gets around to menstruation. I can't see him joining in the conversation, really. More hilarious that there are posts in this thread claiming he might have been "the right person for the job".

[user104658]

Surely even if you take gender out of the equation entirely... it's ridiculous to think that ANY 19 year old is qualified for this position :umm2:. I would at least very much hope that very few 19 year old females have the sort of life experience required to tackle this role??

[Niamh.]

Surely even if you take gender out of the equation entirely... it's ridiculous to think that ANY 19 year old is qualified for this position :umm2:. I would at least very much hope that very few 19 year old females have the sort of life experience required to tackle this role??

Yes exactly. Seems more like Politicians doing it to be "right on" more than because this person was best for the job. Like Vicky said how can they be right for the job when they don't even believe basic biology is relevant?

[smudgie]

Surely even if you take gender out of the equation entirely... it's ridiculous to think that ANY 19 year old is qualified for this position :umm2:. I would at least very much hope that very few 19 year old females have the sort of life experience required to tackle this role??

Indeed.
Any 19 year old that understands the menopause is a ruddy genius, never mind a young lad.

[user104658]

Indeed.
Any 19 year old that understands the menopause is a ruddy genius, never mind a young lad.

No one understands the menopause, it's an urban legend.

[bots]

it just spells out how little regard the people who appointed him have for the role. It says more about them than anything else

[user104658]

it just spells out how little regard the people who appointed him have for the role. It says more about them than anything else

Well exactly, even if it is open to all, it should surely go to someone with a wealth of political experience and who has demonstrated over many years that they understand the role and the issues that need to be tackled within that role. Handing any political position to someone straight out of school, or even straight out of University, has to be a massive misstep?

[smudgie]

Well exactly, even if it is open to all, it should surely go to someone with a wealth of political experience and who has demonstrated over many years that they understand the role and the issues that need to be tackled within that role. Handing any political position to someone straight out of school, or even straight out of University, has to be a massive misstep?

*cough* keeping the voters happy in this case.

[arista]

A 19 year old boy representing womens needs ...................oy vey


Its a Ex -Boy

Now Woman..........................................

[Oliver_W]

Its a Ex -Boy

Now Woman..........................................

Male transwoman*

[Niamh.]

Its a Ex -Boy

Now Woman..........................................

Male transwoman*

This.

[Jamie89]

A little cultural misappropriation there. I'll overlook it for the sake of the thread, though.

I have known several Women's Officers in various jobs. I have never met one who is male. It's hilarious really. I mean, think of the face of the average 19 year old male when the conversation gets around to menstruation. I can't see him joining in the conversation, really. More hilarious that there are posts in this thread claiming he might have been "the right person for the job".

Why is that hilarious? This thread is about somebody's job role and people don't seem to want to discuss what the actual role will involve and what education and training and experience Lily might have in relation to that. Yes 19 seems really young, and someone who isn't biologically a woman taking on a womans role of course sounds bizarre on the face of it. But can we not look at it any deeper that? People are bringing up things like menstruation/womens rights and issues/things that can only affect a biological female and stating that the person in this role needs to have first hand experience of these things, but I haven't seen anything that relates to womens rights and womens personal issues in the actual role description, and surely that should be the center of what this debate is about? I find it bizarre that that is being ignored and replaced with issues that from what I've read don't seem to factor into the role, and that people who want to actually consider and discuss those things should be mocked for it? That when discussing someone's job role the idea that they might be competent at it is something that shouldn't even be considered because on the surface it seems unusual, and that because it hasn't happened before it's something that should never happen.

[arista]

This.


Complex it
why don't you.

[Oliver_W]

I wonder how people who are okay with this feel about the Secretaries of Education and Health having no relevant background.

[bots]

Why is that hilarious? This thread is about somebody's job role and people don't seem to want to discuss what the actual role will involve and what education and training and experience Lily might have in relation to that. Yes 19 seems really young, and someone who isn't biologically a woman taking on a womans role of course sounds bizarre on the face of it. But can we not look at it any deeper that? People are bringing up things like menstruation/womens rights and issues/things that can only affect a biological female and stating that the person in this role needs to have first hand experience of these things, but I haven't seen anything that relates to womens rights and womens personal issues in the actual role description, and surely that should be the center of what this debate is about? I find it bizarre that that is being ignored and replaced with issues that from what I've read don't seem to factor into the role, and that people who want to actually consider and discuss those things should be mocked for it? That when discussing someone's job role the idea that they might be competent at it is something that shouldn't even be considered because on the surface it seems unusual, and that because it hasn't happened before it's something that should never happen.

Quoting from the article:

Congratulating the teenager on her election, Teresa Murray, Medway councillor and vice-chairwoman of the executive committee of Rochester and Strood CLP, acknowledged that “Lily will have to work very hard to convince other people that her very presence there is not going to undermine them”.

The Labour councillor said that “lived experience as a woman” should be considered an advantage — but not a prerequisite — for the role of women’s officer. She added: “Someone who is an accountant would probably make a better treasurer initially, but that doesn’t mean we should only give the role to an accountant.”

Does that strike you as someone chosen because they are the best person for the role? Or does it more imply a complete mismatch that may work if the wind blows in the correct direction. That quote comes from one of those responsible for the decision.

[Livia]

Why is that hilarious? This thread is about somebody's job role and people don't seem to want to discuss what the actual role will involve and what education and training and experience Lily might have in relation to that. Yes 19 seems really young, and someone who isn't biologically a woman taking on a womans role of course sounds bizarre on the face of it. But can we not look at it any deeper that? People are bringing up things like menstruation/womens rights and issues/things that can only affect a biological female and stating that the person in this role needs to have first hand experience of these things, but I haven't seen anything that relates to womens rights and womens personal issues in the actual role description, and surely that should be the center of what this debate is about? I find it bizarre that that is being ignored and replaced with issues that from what I've read don't seem to factor into the role, and that people who want to actually consider and discuss those things should be mocked for it? That when discussing someone's job role the idea that they might be competent at it is something that shouldn't even be considered because on the surface it seems unusual, and that because it hasn't happened before it's something that should never happen.

No I don't need to look any deeper, Jamie. I'm speaking as a woman who has been in the workplace for a few years now, unlike this boy who has only just done his bloody A levels! Like TS said, even if he wasn't male, even if he was a female, at 19 years old he just doesn't have the life skills or the experience needed for a job like this.

[Niamh.]

No I don't need to look any deeper, Jamie. I'm speaking as a woman who has been in the workplace for a few years now, unlike this boy who has only just done his bloody A levels! Like TS said, even if he wasn't male, even if he was a female, at 19 years old he just doesn't have the life skills or the experience needed for a job like this.

Exactly. I find it abit insulting actually. I do wonder what men would think also if it were a female to male 19 year old transgendered person who got a job strictly to do with mens issues how they would feel about it? It makes no sense at all except for if they are trying to prove how "progressive" they are by doing it........whilst being regressive towards women at the same time

[arista]

No I don't need to look any deeper, Jamie. I'm speaking as a woman who has been in the workplace for a few years now, unlike this boy who has only just done his bloody A levels! Like TS said, even if he wasn't male, even if he was a female, at 19 years old he just doesn't have the life skills or the experience needed for a job like this.


Very True Livia.

[Jamie89]

I wonder how people who are okay with this feel about the Secretaries of Education and Health having no relevant background.

I feel like I keep repeating myself lol but again for me it's about competence in the role, and based on the actual description of what the role will involve I can't see how Lily's sex will automatically make her incompetent. Here's the link again which as far as I'm aware is what the role involves...

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1445544799

Quoting from the article:

Congratulating the teenager on her election, Teresa Murray, Medway councillor and vice-chairwoman of the executive committee of Rochester and Strood CLP, acknowledged that “Lily will have to work very hard to convince other people that her very presence there is not going to undermine them”.

The Labour councillor said that “lived experience as a woman” should be considered an advantage — but not a prerequisite — for the role of women’s officer. She added: “Someone who is an accountant would probably make a better treasurer initially, but that doesn’t mean we should only give the role to an accountant.”

Does that strike you as someone chosen because they are the best person for the role? Or does it more imply a complete mismatch that may work if the wind blows in the correct direction. That quote comes from one of those responsible for the decision.

That statement seems to me to be more about Lily needing to defy the preconceptions and assumptions that some will have based on her age and sex, rather than it being about her competance.

No I don't need to look any deeper, Jamie. I'm speaking as a woman who has been in the workplace for a few years now, unlike this boy who has only just done his bloody A levels! Like TS said, even if he wasn't male, even if he was a female, at 19 years old he just doesn't have the life skills or the experience needed for a job like this.

Do we really know enough about her qualifications/knowledge/training/competence to be able to say that for certain without even considering the possibility she might do a good job? Do we know if lily has actually done anything in the role that shows her to be incompetent? Do we know if the women she's dealt with have been happy with her? It all seems to be assumptions to me based on things that fall outside of what the actual role description is and it seems odd to me that those things should be ignored is all.

Exactly. I find it abit insulting actually. I do wonder what men would think also if it were a female to male 19 year old transgendered person who got a job strictly to do with mens issues how they would feel about it? It makes no sense at all except for if they are trying to prove how "progressive" they are by doing it........whilst being regressive towards women at the same time

Which issues? Which parts of the job role are we talking about here?

[Cherie]

No I don't need to look any deeper, Jamie. I'm speaking as a woman who has been in the workplace for a few years now, unlike this boy who has only just done his bloody A levels! Like TS said, even if he wasn't male, even if he was a female, at 19 years old he just doesn't have the life skills or the experience needed for a job like this.

actually I said that before TS and he copied me :hmph:

[Niamh.]

I feel like I keep repeating myself lol but again for me it's about competence in the role, and based on the actual description of what the role will involve I can't see how Lily's sex will automatically make her incompetent. Here's the link again which as far as I'm aware is what the role involves...

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1445544799



That statement seems to me to be more about Lily needing to defy the preconceptions and assumptions that some will have based on her age and sex, rather than it being about her competance.



Do we really know enough about her qualifications/knowledge/training/competence to be able to say that for certain without even considering the possibility she might do a good job? Do we know if lily has actually done anything in the role that shows her to be incompetent? Do we know if the women she's dealt with have been happy with her? It all seems to be assumptions to me based on things that fall outside of what the actual role description is and it seems odd to me that those things should be ignored is all.



Which issues? Which parts of the job role are we talking about here?

This being the main criteria I think :

The women’s officer
must be a woman.

I would think that a woman who has a womans life experiences is best suited to this part also :

Ensure that the priorities of the constituency reflect the views and concerns of women
members and women in the wider community.

Wouldn't you think it was ridiculous and insulting to black people for example, if a white man was chosen to represent the black community and put forward their concerns?

Job Description
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/labourclp96/pages/1278/attachments/original/1445544799/Job_Description_-_CLP_Womens_Officer.pdf?1445544799

[Jamie89]

This being the main criteria I think :

The women’s officer
must be a woman.

Yes that kind of sticks out [emoji23] but I don't see that as being part of what the actual role involves so I don't know why that would be the main thing? And it's something that they've clearly altered their view on. I don't see why that in itself is wrong.

I would think that a woman who has a womans life experiences is best suited to this part also :

Ensure that the priorities of the constituency reflect the views and concerns of women
members and women in the wider community.

Wouldn't you think it was ridiculous and insulting to black people for example, if a white man was chosen to represent the black community and put forward their concerns?

Job Description
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/labourclp96/pages/1278/attachments/original/1445544799/Job_Description_-_CLP_Womens_Officer.pdf?1445544799

The views and concerns will be coming directly from the women of the community, not Lily. Lily will be responsible for putting those views and concerns forward. If she was solely responsible for deciding what those concerns would be, or if she failed to put forward those concerns then fair enough and she'd be accountable for that but I don't think that's the case?* I'd apply that to issues of race and sexuality as well.

[Vicky.]

Do we really know enough about her qualifications/knowledge/training/competence to be able to say that for certain without even considering the possibility she might do a good job? Do we know if lily has actually done anything in the role that shows her to be incompetent? Do we know if the women she's dealt with have been happy with her? It all seems to be assumptions to me based on things that fall outside of what the actual role description is and it seems odd to me that those things should be ignored is all.




He only joined the Labour party ****ing 6 months ago. This appointment is clearly to show how 'progressive' they are. And I don't think its 'progressive' at all to claim men are women tbh, which is what this is doing. The role specifically state that it needs to be a woman. Also this person is a member of Momentum, and Momentum seem so have controlled the votes on this to huge degree..not just this person but the other appointments that were made, most of them were also Momentum members.

Its just a ****ing pisstake. The age is problematic but honestly..the age does not bother me THAT much. People said Mhari Black was too young at 21 to do her job but she is amazing at it. Its the fact that this person does not believe female is an actualy category that excludes males, has put himelf foward for a role specifically for women, and been voted in by a bunch of idiots who do not care about women at all obviously and care more about being 'progressive' when its anything but. Its actually very regressive, the view that 'woman' is something in someones head.

[Vicky.]

Also sorry for very harsh posts on here last night, I was pretty drunk. Just been reading back over it all and I was more sharp than usual in a few places. But this issue seriously bothers me at the moment, as a female, I am not a female because I like wearing dresses and wearing makeup (neither of which I actually do). I find the insinuation that a man can be a woman just becuse he says so seriously mysoginistic. I am a woman as I am an adult human female. I don't beleve in 'gender identity' (which is akin to a religion really) as I do not even have one (I don't 'feel' like a woman, I simply feel like me) so to follow the idology that makes me neiter female nor male. Bonkers.

[AnnieK]

actually I said that before TS and he copied me :hmph:

If we are being pedantic, I said it way back on page 3....:hehe:

[Vicky.]

The views and concerns will be coming directly from the women of the community, not Lily. Lily will be responsible for putting those views and concerns forward. If she was solely responsible for deciding what those concerns would be, or if she failed to put forward those concerns then fair enough and she'd be accountable for that but I don't think that's the case?* I'd apply that to issues of race and sexuality as well.

'She' has already been banging on about the needs of 'transwomen' in this role that is meant to be about women. Do you really think 'she' is going to be bothered about issues that don't affect 'her'? Its now going to be all about the needs of men.

[Cherie]

If we are being pedantic, I said it way back on page 3....:hehe:

:joker: sorry Annie

[Cherie]

'She' has already been banging on about the needs of 'transwomen' in this role that is meant to be about women. Do you really think 'she' is going to be bothered about issues that don't affect 'her'? Its now going to be all about the needs of men.

That is a good point actually

[Vicky.]

Lily was also part of a bullying campaign that lead to a 52 year old woman being ousted from this very role. That shows they are not the right person too. His youtube videos basically show a immature young boy who thinks 'woman' is something you can become by being 'pretty'. Its pathetic.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-officials-quit-in-transgender-row-06qtj2b3r?shareToken=080f8be84918d6bd0b1c343ae147a 9a9

One of his youtube videos, moaning about not being able to go to the female toilets. Actively mysoginistic. Anti-womens rights (I would say ANYONE who says men should be in female sex segregated spaces is anti-womes rights actually, clearly does not understand or care about the risk to women).. Immature. And does not believe woman is a category that excludes men. Terrible choice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6N_bv3BMgA&app=desktop

[Jamie89]

Also sorry for very harsh posts on here last night, I was pretty drunk. Just been reading back over it all and I was more sharp than usual in a few places. But this issue seriously bothers me at the moment, as a female, I am not a female because I like wearing dresses and wearing makeup (neither of which I actually do). I find the insinuation that a man can be a woman just becuse he says so seriously mysoginistic. I am a woman as I am an adult human female. I don't beleve in 'gender identity' (which is akin to a religion really) as I do not even have one (I don't 'feel' like a woman, I simply feel like me) so to follow the idology that makes me neiter female nor male. Bonkers.

I get all of this I just don't see it as being anything to do with this case, of whether someone is able to carry out their role.

'She' has already been banging on about the needs of 'transwomen' in this role that is meant to be about women. Do you really think 'she' is going to be bothered about issues that don't affect 'her'? Its now going to be all about the needs of men.

I don't know, I'm just saying I'd keep an open mind about it because I don't know, rather than assume she can't possibly do well in the role. I could be proved wrong and yes she may fail to represent her constituents just as any other politician might who are unable to fully understand the lives of those they represent (and I don't think many politicians really do understand that), but I'd still give her the chance to prove herself. The most important thing for me would be how her female constituents feel about how they are being represented by her and I suppose time will tell that, but I don't think it's something that can be judged straight off the bat however unusual the appointment might seem.

I don't know the details of what she's talked about regarding trans-womens needs and how that affects womens needs but I'll have a look at that later, I'd guess/hope that she could be trying to be inclusive of both rather than trying to demean or ignore women? I don't know exactly what's happened with that though.
I'll watch the video later too, although as part of her role she'd have to put aside her personal feelings to an extent if they conflict with the wants of the women she's representing and I'd probably reserve judgement until I saw that she wasn't doing that.

[Jack_]

I don't think this has been mentioned, and it certainly won't change any of your debates - but it's worth pointing out that she's been elected as the women's officer for the Rochester and Strood CLP - not as Labour's women's officer. The national shadow ministerial post for women's rights is held by Dawn Butler.

[Vicky.]

I don't know the details of what she's talked about regarding trans-womens needs and how that affects womens needs but I'll have a look at that later, I'd guess/hope that she could be trying to be inclusive of both rather than trying to demean or ignore women? I don't know exactly what's happened with that though.
I'll watch the video later too, although as part of her role she'd have to put aside her personal feelings to an extent if they conflict with the wants of the women she's representing and I'd probably reserve judgement until I saw that she wasn't doing that.

Including men in a role about women is wrong. Transwomen are not women. This role is about women and their needs. It should not include the needs of men. Again, Lily would have been much better suited to LGBT officer, where she could focus on the rights of transwomen as much as 'she' pleased. Pretty much like how stonewall now actively ignore LGB and focus on the T. Ruth Hunt is a ****ing disgrace recently and its sad that such a good organisation has gone so backwards. Ruth swallows the 'sex is irrelevant' line hook line and sinker. She refuses to answer questions about the rights of lesbians...its just all so stupid and backwards. Everything has to centre 'transwomen' these days. And a job about women, should not have enything to do with 'transwomen' as they are not women. So being 'inclusive' (meaning being about the rights of males instead of the females its meant to be about), in this post, is completely wrong.

Saying a role specifically about the needs of women should include the needs of men, is exactly the same as saying a role about the needs of black people should include the needs of white people.

[Livia]

actually I said that before TS and he copied me :hmph:

If we are being pedantic, I said it way back on page 3....:hehe:

Sorry Cherie and Annie! Obviously all the smart women were thinking it... My theory is that TS's wife told him to post it.

[Kizzy]

The misconception is that being a woman is purely biological it isn't, being female is... to be a woman you need a lifetime of social conditioning.
Germaine Greer was almost burned at the stake for saying similar... I 100% agreed with her, which at the time didn't go down too well on here.

This is not progressive, women for years have fought against their not perceived but actual disadvantage, it's not unreasonable to highlight that trans-gendered females have not cultured their womanhood from birth.

I'm not a 'TERF' which like 'PC' is a nonsensical term invented to mock those who wish to further the dialogue from what is being pushed as the preferred view of the majority.

The appointment was in my opinion a major error, you cannot push the rights of one marginalised group by denying the another.

[Niamh.]

What I've noticed in this thread which could be telling is that it's only men that seem to be thinking that it's absolutely "fine" for this to happen. (Not all the men obviously but I don't think a single woman in here agreed with it)

[Jamie89]

What I've noticed in this thread which could be telling is that it's only men that seem to be thinking that it's absolutely "fine" for this to happen. (Not all the men obviously but I don't think a single woman in here agreed with it)I think Joey considered it to be wrong, and I got that impression from Oliver too, Cherie seemed more bothered about the age thing and not too bothered about gender i think? Sorry if I'm misrepresenting anyone lol. Me and Withano seem to be the strongest/(only?) defenders of it but although we're both men it's still only 2 people so I don't think we're a substantial sample really. And in the article the person defending the appointment is a woman.

[Niamh.]

I think Joey considered it to be wrong, and I got that impression from Oliver too, Cherie seemed more bothered about the age thing and not too bothered about gender i think? Sorry if I'm misrepresenting anyone lol. Me and Withano seem to be the strongest/(only?) defenders of it but although we're both men it's still only 2 people so I don't think we're a substantial sample really. And in the article the person defending the appointment is a woman.

I did say not all the men in the thread :rant:

[Jamie89]

Oh I just noticed you said 'not all the men obviously' so that post can be largely ignored I guess [emoji23] (although I still don't really think we're a big enough sample to really make any strong conclusions from that)

[Niamh.]

Oh I just noticed you said 'not all the men obviously' so that post can be largely ignored I guess [emoji23] (although I still don't really think we're a big enough sample to really make any strong conclusions from that)

Yeah I know there's not loads of people posting in here, tbh it's stuck out at me because we're having a referendum over here on abortion next year so there's alot of discussions going on atm and it seems to be a huge number of people who ring in talk shows etc on the No side are men, very vocal men and it bothers me so much that womens issues are trying to be dictated by men. It's maddening

[bots]

To be honest, it's typical of labour, and how they deal with "progressive" issues. They always seem to take things to ludicrous, wholly unnecessary extremes, and this is just another example.

[Northern Monkey]

Exactly. I find it abit insulting actually. I do wonder what men would think also if it were a female to male 19 year old transgendered person who got a job strictly to do with mens issues how they would feel about it? It makes no sense at all except for if they are trying to prove how "progressive" they are by doing it........whilst being regressive towards women at the same time

Totally.Stuff like this is where the term “regressive left” came from.This far left crap started in America in Unis and has made its way over here now.
It’s straight up virtue signaling and forget about the consequences cos ‘we’re like sooo progressive’.It’s like a disease that depletes common sense.

[jaxie]

What is even more infuriating is people enable this. It is PC gone clinically insane.

Being a woman is not about tottering around in heels and dress and make up and hair. It's about living with periods, childbirth, mysogyny, sexism, less opportunities and less pay. How dare they decide some boy in a dress represents me and my sex.

[Brillopad]

No offence but you're a man it's not men it effects so it's irrelevant if you're fine with it or not

Here, here. Those that are actually affected by it are the ones whose opinions count.

[Vicky.]

The misconception is that being a woman is purely biological it isn't, being female is... to be a woman you need a lifetime of social conditioning.
Germaine Greer was almost burned at the stake for saying similar... I 100% agreed with her, which at the time didn't go down too well on here.

This is not progressive, women for years have fought against their not perceived but actual disadvantage, it's not unreasonable to highlight that trans-gendered females have not cultured their womanhood from birth.

I'm not a 'TERF' which like 'PC' is a nonsensical term invented to mock those who wish to further the dialogue from what is being pushed as the preferred view of the majority.

The appointment was in my opinion a major error, you cannot push the rights of one marginalised group by denying the another.
TERF is just another insult aimed at women tbh. Its used very much in a 'burn the witch' way. Its telling that there is no slur for men who believe biology is relevant.

I was well and truly 'woke' to this when I got into a twitter argument where basically all I had said is that transwomen and women are not the same, and that we do actually need sex segregation as in other countries with none, there is more opportunistic sexual crimes committed by men against women. I recieved literally about 15 threats of rape, a message telling me a transwoman is a better woman than me as they have firm tits and not a 'baggy fanny' as they have not given birth. Apparently men would much prefer to shag a transwoman as their bodies are better and they are more feminine than actual women :laugh: I also received 3 death threats, and had one person telling me they would search my previous tweets and such and find out where I lived. I ended up abandoning the account as it was so scary. This is the state of the debate around this today. Though their tagline is 'no debate' because they know their arguments are flimsy and pathetic and do not stand up to scrutiny.

The treatmnt of Greer is disgusting. A few feminists get it too. Julie Bindel is attacked regularly and the transactivists even made a site up about 'Julie Bindels genitals' :bored:

[Brillopad]

What is even more infuriating is people enable this. It is PC gone clinically insane.

Being a woman is not about tottering around in heels and dress and make up and hair. It's about living with periods, childbirth, mysogyny, sexism, less opportunities and less pay. How dare they decide some boy in a dress represents me and my sex.

It really is insulting, how dare they indeed. The Western world is pandering to PC far too much and as a consequence certain groups of people are trying their luck and being accommodated by political groups with an agenda. As I said before - enough rope ...!

[Vicky.]

It really is insulting, how dare they indeed. The Western world is pandering to PC far too much and as a consequence certain groups of people are trying their luck and being accommodated by political groups with an agenda. As I said before - enough rope ...!

This actually one of the few arguments where I do actually think its 'PC gone mad'. I am genuinely baffled as to how anyone can buy the arguments of transactivists (most of whom are just angry men who hate women) and how easily some will basically...trample all over real women, in favour of men who say they are women. Even transsexual people don't say they actually ARE the opposite sex. The arguments today are along the lines of 'my body is not a male body as I have a female brain. Thus, a penis is a female organ' and 'despite being assigned male at birth, I have always been female' and the totally ridiculous 'I am a lesbian and actual lesbians are transphobic for refusing to shag my male body'. Totally batshit crazy. And blindly accepted by some. Its kind of like a cult IMO.

[Kizzy]

I really hope Labour do something to address this issue as it will be used as a weapon to detract from sensible ideology.

[joeysteele]

I really hope Labour do something to address this issue as it will be used as a weapon to detract from sensible ideology.

Ditto,I agree.

[Vicky.]

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone :suspect:

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/status/935466703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

[bots]

i want to be a smurf, i am a smurf, i've always been a smurf :smug:

[Brillopad]

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone :suspect:

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/status/935466703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

A 19 year-old twat. I think he lives somewhere far away.

[Livia]

i want to be a smurf, i am a smurf, i've always been a smurf :smug:

That's pretty much as I imagine you.... :-)

If transgender male to females want to be seen as women, they're going to have to be nicer and more understanding. Currently they're acting like bullyboys. I uphold their right to identify as a woman, to live as a woman and to lead a happy life. But I do not see them as being the same as me.

[Jamie89]

OK I am now fairly sure 'Lily' is just trolling everyone :suspect:

https://twitter.com/whatakerfuffle/status/935466703567368193

'I want to be a girl, I am a girl, I've always been a girl'.

Said the 19 year old boy. Entirely seriously. Jesus christ...

I'd assume that she means she wants to be considered a woman, because she feels like she is one and always been one. Or possibly that she wants to go through reassignment surgery. I don't know. I find it really hard to believe that anyone would put themselves through what transgender people go through on a whim. A tweet probably isn't the best form of communicating something so complex, or understanding what it is that makes a transgender person the way they are.

I've been reading a lot more recently both sides of the transgender/feminism debate because in all honesty I've never really seen them as being that connected, but seeing the strong opinions in here they obviously are, but what I don't really get is, what is it that is being taken away from women by allowing a transwoman to be considered a woman? I understand the arguments that they won't have experienced sexism and womens issues to the extent of women who were born female, but what actual rights are being taken away from women by including transwomen in that? That's something I can't find an answer to. I suppose you could say in this example it's the fact that a transwoman has a job that should have gone to a 'real' woman, but I still wouldn't see that as a right being taken away from women, as long as those women also had the opportunity to apply for the role. In terms of 'rights' they still would have been allowed to apply and carry it out had they been given it.
I've also been reading a bit about intersectional feminism and I wonder if feminism progressing to include transwomen is just the natural course of things as they become more accepted in society? I don't know though, I'd be interested to know what others think about that.

From the stuff I've read I think that the main crux of this debate comes down to whether or not you believe that gender identity is real, and that's where it's difficult because it's not something tangible and it's different in different people. Some people have no feelings relating to their gender, but for some people to go to the extent of having painful surgeries because of it, face mockery and insults because of it, kill themselves because of it, it surely has to exist and be overwhelming for some people. And even biological sex can be more complicated than just male/female. We know that intersex people exist (I know you said in the OP you didn't want to discuss intersex because of the small numbers of them, even though apparently there's actually more intersex people than there are transgender people :p but I'd say it's relevant given how so many people equate gender to biological sex, but just the fact that intersex people exist, regardless of numbers, shows that it isn't that straight forward a thing.)

Anyway, if gender identity is real (which I believe it is, it just doesn't manifest the way it does for transgender people in the same way it does everyone else, or at all in most people) then is it really so bad for them to want the rest of society to regard them in the way they identify? Is that imposing an ideology or isn't it just natural, we all want people to view us as the person we feel that we are? Most of us just don't have to even think about that because it happens naturally. And is their inclusion within the group that they identify with really taking anything away from the people currently in that group? That's something I'm really keen to understand. I don't personally feel that a transman takes anything away from me being a man but I appreciate it's probably different for women because of feminism which is why I'm asking.

i want to be a smurf, i am a smurf, i've always been a smurf :smug:

Smurfs don't have any genitals, it's probably a simpler existence tbh so good luck to you!

[Vicky.]

I've been reading a lot more recently both sides of the transgender/feminism debate because in all honesty I've never really seen them as being that connected, but seeing the strong opinions in here they obviously are, but what I don't really get is, what is it that is being taken away from women by allowing a transwoman to be considered a woman? I understand the arguments that they won't have experienced sexism and womens issues to the extent of women who were born female, but what actual rights are being taken away from women by including transwomen in that? That's something I can't find an answer to.

Generally the problem feminists have with it is the loss of women only spaces. Such as loos, prisons, sport, etc. Stuff that was fought for for hundreds of years.

Men lose their male spaces too. But it does not seem that there are loads of transmen lining up wanting into male areas. So it doesn't really affect men to the same extent at the moment.

The main problem I have with it all is the loss of sex segregation tbh. As I see segregation as very much needed (in certain areas anyway). If I wasn't expected to parrot the lie that you actually can change sex and if men weren't trying to force their way into female areas, I wouldn't have an issue with it at all. Of course there is an added problem of anytime anyone says anything besides 'biology is totally irrelevant and is a social construct' they are hit with rape and death threats too (I have had 3 this week so far, people keep trying to show me how 'womanly' they are by threatening me with their girlcock. Hmm), which doesn't help tensions at all. I also think its important that language continue to actually make sense, so including male people in the meaning of 'woman' is a bit daft. Hence 'transwoman'. Not the same as women, and ridiculous to claim they are the same. I know people mean well when they say 'transwomen are women' and such, but at least think a little bit about what you are saying. Woman has a meaning, if woman includes men, then woman suddenly means 'person' instead, and we already have a word for person :suspect:

I also think gender identity is such a load of crap. Maybe my opinion is clouded on that because I personally do not have one and am not religious so don't believe in some mysterious inner essence or whatever. But everyone should be able to dress however the hell they like..but I won't pretend that someone putting on a dress makes them an actual woman :shrug: I think thats just lazy stereotyping. And besides stereotypes, I don't see what 'trans' is at all. I used to think it was people who had sex dysphoria and felt they did not fit in their bodies, similar to BDD. But 'born in the wrong body' is transphopbic these days. thus I cannot understand what makes modern day transwomen (as opposed to transsexuals) any different from any other man...except for what they want to wear :S


Anyway, if gender identity is real (which I believe it is, it just doesn't manifest the way it does for transgender people in the same way it does everyone else, or at all in most people) then is it really so bad for them to want the rest of society to regard them in the way they identify? Is that imposing an ideology or isn't it just natural, we all want people to view us as the person we feel that we are? Most of us just don't have to even think about that because it happens naturally. And is their inclusion within the group that they identify with really taking anything away from the people currently in that group? That's something I'm really keen to understand. I don't personally feel that a transman takes anything away from me being a man but I appreciate it's probably different for women because of feminism which is why I'm asking.


Well that depends entirely on if you believe male and female are real distinct categories, and if sex segregation is needed doesn't it..

I went into what rights are being taken away above. There is not that much of a clash with 'trans rights' and 'womens rights', but the areas they do clash, its very important and the activists are just getting more and more violent in trying to silence any woman ( real or trans, transsexuals are being silenced also in the name of 'transgender') who speaks up.

[Vicky.]

If you are genuinely interested, this is fairly long but goes into near all of the issues

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/amp/

Summary of problems (including problems for transsexual people) here too - http://sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

[Livia]

If you are genuinely interested, this is fairly long but goes into near all of the issues

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/amp/

Summary of problems (including problems for transsexual people) here too - http://sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Thanks for those Vicky, fascinating reads. And I have to say I am 100% in agreement with you on this issue.

[Vicky.]

Thanks for those Vicky, fascinating reads. And I have to say I am 100% in agreement with you on this issue.

I genuinely do think that most people would agree on this issue, if they realized whats actually going on. As it stands, anyone who tries to speak out about it is threatened into silence, or even physically attacked. People seem less scared these days though. Maybe this is due to so many cases being publicized and thus more people finding out the extent of the crazyness.

I just hope that actual transsexual people are not caught in the crossfire. As its not transsexual people who are causing the problems we see today, and indeed most transsexuals are pretty sane on this issue, its not them screeching on about how male people actually ARE female and such. It is 'transgender' people. More specifically, 'transgender women' (or trans-identified males as I prefer to call them, as they are not women in any sense of the word, especially when threatening to rape me with their ladysticks :umm2: )

Transsexual people are subjected to the exact same rape and death threats as women are, when they speak up on this issue. From the same people who claim to be fighting for them. You have to wonder who will actually benefit from the majority of 'transactivism', as its certainly not transsexual people.

[Livia]

I genuinely do think that most people would agree on this issue, if they realized whats actually going on. As it stands, anyone who tries to speak out about it is threatened into silence, or even physically attacked. People seem less scared these days though. Maybe this is due to so many cases being publicized and thus more people finding out the extent of the crazyness.

I just hope that actual transsexual people are not caught in the crossfire. As its not transsexual people who are causing the problems we see today, and indeed most transsexuals are pretty sane on this issue, its not them screeching on about how male people actually ARE female and such. It is 'transgender' people. More specifically, 'transgender women' (or trans-identified males as I prefer to call them, as they are not women in any sense of the word, especially when threatening to rape me with their ladysticks :umm2: )

Transsexual people are subjected to the exact same rape and death threats as women are, when they speak up on this issue. From the same people who claim to be fighting for them. You have to wonder who will actually benefit from the majority of 'transactivism', as its certainly not transsexual people.

It seems that the militant few are always to blame for this kind of crap, and like you say, transsexual people must get caught in the crossfire. The whole militant stance on this has cast a very poor light on the transsexual community when it's not really the majority of them causing the stir and when I imagine they have plenty of issues to deal with in their lives already.

[Vicky.]

Its the militant few who are actually being consulted on changes to the law though. If they could just be written off as a few crazies, that would be great. But they are not and are actually being listened to.

It seems to be a fair few of the 'transgender' (note, not transsexual I feel the distinction is important) people today who do go along with the crazy viewpoints though. I do not know even one lesbian who has not been put in a dodgy position by 'women with penises' (I did know one who hadn't, until a month or so ago but now she has joined the rest). Might have started as a handful of crazies, but people have latched onto it as a way to attack women, or to get into the knickers of lesbians. its gross :bored:

[Livia]

Its the militant few who are actually being consulted on changes to the law though. If they could just be written off as a few crazies, that would be great. But they are not and are actually being listened to.

It seems to be a fair few of the 'transgender' (note, not transsexual I feel the distinction is important) people today who do go along with the crazy viewpoints though. I do not know even one lesbian who has not been put in a dodgy position by 'women with penises' (I did know one who hadn't, until a month or so ago but now she has joined the rest). Might have started as a handful of crazies, but people have latched onto it as a way to attack women, or to get into the knickers of lesbians. its gross :bored:

I'm sure they won't be allowed to form the legislation if it's going to impact negatively on - and I use this term advisedly - real women. Thankfully, there are plenty of women in the legal profession these days and that's because we fought for decades, centuries, for our rights to be acknowledged. We've got to be vigilant to make sure those rights are not impacted by the penis, as they have been since time immemorial, and at the same time uphold the rights of transsexual people. It's a muddy one.

[Brillopad]

I'm sure they won't be allowed to form the legislation if it's going to impact negatively on - and I use this term advisedly - real women. Thankfully, there are plenty of women in the legal profession these days and that's because we fought for decades, centuries, for our rights to be acknowledged. We've got to be vigilant to make sure those rights are not impacted by the penis, as they have been since time immemorial, and at the same time uphold the rights of transsexual people. It's a muddy one.

Completely agree with this!

[Vicky.]

I'm sure they won't be allowed to form the legislation if it's going to impact negatively on - and I use this term advisedly - real women. Thankfully, there are plenty of women in the legal profession these days and that's because we fought for decades, centuries, for our rights to be acknowledged. We've got to be vigilant to make sure those rights are not impacted by the penis, as they have been since time immemorial, and at the same time uphold the rights of transsexual people. It's a muddy one.

Sadly its real women who are pushing the changes through. Its Maria Millers bill thats wanting to remove all 'gatekeeping' from the GRA process. Meaning, it will literally be as easy as filling in a form to 'change sex'. Its supported by May too apparently.

There is no need whatsoever to change the GRC. Its fine as it is. Those wishing 'changing sex' to be as easy as filling in a form on the internet have had (until recent months) almost full support as people did not think any deeper into what this would actually mean :S

With it finally being publicized (largely thanks to the Times..who seem to be the only paper willing to report on it properly) I am hopeful that the nonsense will not win.

[Vicky.]

I mean, this is how backwards it all is and how little thought has been put into it all. Its down to David ****ing Davies to stand up for the rights of women (and transsexuals)

http://mirandayardley.com/en/how-transgender-became-the-new-black-presentation-in-parliament-on-31-october-2017/

https://www.david-davies.org.uk/sites/www.david-davies.org.uk/files/2017-11/Transgender%20Law%20Concerns.pdf

Its a sad day when a solitary Tory MP is the only one giving a crap about the rights of women D: Where both Labour and the Tories are willing to disregard actual women and transsexual people in an effort to appear the most 'progressive' (when this legislation is anything but progressive)

[Jamie89]

Generally the problem feminists have with it is the loss of women only spaces. Such as loos, prisons, sport, etc. Stuff that was fought for for hundreds of years.

Men lose their male spaces too. But it does not seem that there are loads of transmen lining up wanting into male areas. So it doesn't really affect men to the same extent at the moment.

The main problem I have with it all is the loss of sex segregation tbh. As I see segregation as very much needed (in certain areas anyway). If I wasn't expected to parrot the lie that you actually can change sex and if men weren't trying to force their way into female areas, I wouldn't have an issue with it at all. Of course there is an added problem of anytime anyone says anything besides 'biology is totally irrelevant and is a social construct' they are hit with rape and death threats too (I have had 3 this week so far, people keep trying to show me how 'womanly' they are by threatening me with their girlcock. Hmm), which doesn't help tensions at all. I also think its important that language continue to actually make sense, so including male people in the meaning of 'woman' is a bit daft. Hence 'transwoman'. Not the same as women, and ridiculous to claim they are the same. I know people mean well when they say 'transwomen are women' and such, but at least think a little bit about what you are saying. Woman has a meaning, if woman includes men, then woman suddenly means 'person' instead, and we already have a word for person :suspect:

I also think gender identity is such a load of crap. Maybe my opinion is clouded on that because I personally do not have one and am not religious so don't believe in some mysterious inner essence or whatever. But everyone should be able to dress however the hell they like..but I won't pretend that someone putting on a dress makes them an actual woman :shrug: I think thats just lazy stereotyping. And besides stereotypes, I don't see what 'trans' is at all. I used to think it was people who had sex dysphoria and felt they did not fit in their bodies, similar to BDD. But 'born in the wrong body' is transphopbic these days. thus I cannot understand what makes modern day transwomen (as opposed to transsexuals) any different from any other man...except for what they want to wear :S

I think gender identity is the driving force behind everything trans related, although I don't fully understand it either I can't see how it doesn't exist, if it didn't then there wouldn't be transgender people and none of this would be an issue.
No putting on a dress doesn't make someone a woman, but a man who feels like he is a woman might feel like wearing a dress or makeup etc will make other people more likely to consider them a woman and treat them as one. Yes they are steretypes but they're stereotypes that are imposed by wider society, not trans people, and trans people who conform to them are just trying to fit in and wanting to be viewed and treated as the gender they feel they are, rather than actually believing that it's those actions themselves that make them a woman. Socialisation is important in this, a lot of women feel more feminine wearing makeup or depending what they're wearing, sure not all women, but it's because of gender stereotypes that have been imposed onto them, and this is all part of gender identity, and how it's different in different people.

Well that depends entirely on if you believe male and female are real distinct categories, and if sex segregation is needed doesn't it..

I went into what rights are being taken away above. There is not that much of a clash with 'trans rights' and 'womens rights', but the areas they do clash, its very important and the activists are just getting more and more violent in trying to silence any woman ( real or trans, transsexuals are being silenced also in the name of 'transgender') who speaks up.

So I don't generally believe that sex segregation is all that useful tbh, I certainly don't think that sex segregation is something that maintains the categories of man and woman as being distinct from each other. Man and Woman are distinct from each other naturally and sex segregation is something that results from that. If sex segregation weren't to exist, men and women would still be distinct categories. I do think that there are situations where sex segregation is a good thing, certain sports events for example, but mostly in normal everyday society I think we place way too much emphasis on sex segregation and personally I think it's unnecessary because it's not actually in place to protect women from danger imo, it's there because of social norms and to protect from discomfort. But I don't believe that unisex facilities actually provide a higher risk to anybody. The assumption that they do is actually segregation based on sexuality, more than it is based on sex. The assumption that if men and women share a unisex toilet that men as abusers may try and assault the women (under this logic gay men should be banned from using male public toilets to protect the other men who are using them). And where unisex facilities already exist I don't think there is any evidence that they are more dangerous places? Again it's more discomfort due to social norms than a realistic expectation of danger. The main showers at my swimming pool are unisex and are used by men/women/children, and although I'm sure a woman who has never used a unisex public shower before would certainly feel uncomfortable there at first, there is no actual danger there. Discomfort is legitimate and understandable but social norms can and do change. Situations that are not normal everyday society though, such as prisons and violent criminals, should be dealt with case by case and with common sense in a similar way to how every criminal's sentencing is done on an individual basis. If there is a realistic expectation of danger to women then I'd say that would outweigh an individual persons transgender rights, but it would depend on the case - and I don't think it should be as straightforward as ticking a box or saying they are transgender, there needs to be councelling/assessments etc.

I don't see any of this as taking anything away from cis-women though.
Women who are currently women will still be women, transgender women will also be considered women, men will still be men, and transgender men will be men, I'm sorry I just don't see why there is so much fear around this or what is expected to happen. Yes cis-women may have very different experiences growing up to transgender women but women from different nationalities may have very different experiences also. I think part of the reluctance is the feeling that by classifying transgender women as women, it makes them the same as cis-women, and it therefore nullifies the experiences of cis-women. But I think it's possible to be able to say that transgender women and cis women are women who just have very different life experiences.

Livia's post earlier is interesting...

If transgender male to females want to be seen as women, they're going to have to be nicer and more understanding. Currently they're acting like bullyboys. I uphold their right to identify as a woman, to live as a woman and to lead a happy life. But I do not see them as being the same as me.

This is basically what I'm saying (although maybe in a different way to how Livia intended I'm not sure), but I'd say that transgender women and cis gender women can both be called women, but women with very different experiences and who aren't the same. I suppose I think that that's ok. My female to male transexual friend isn't the same as me and had very different experiences growing up and going through puberty to me, he doesn't have a penis, and if I really analyse the differences between our experiences as men then I'd say I don't consider him to be a man in the exact same way that I'm a man and he can't understand certain aspects of masculinity that I understand... but I still consider him to be a man. I don't know if that really makes sense or sounds like a contradiction lol but it makes sense in my head.
I think a comparison can be made with gay marriage and changing the definition of 'marriage'. The experiences of gay people in relationships can be different to straight people in relationships due to the way society treats them differently, but it doesn't really change how they feel within those relationships, and the definition of marriage changing to include gay marriage hasn't changed anything in how straight marriage is viewed or how straight people should consider their own marriages. Nothing was taken away from married straight couples.

If you are genuinely interested, this is fairly long but goes into near all of the issues

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/amp/

Summary of problems (including problems for transsexual people) here too - http://sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

I do agree with some of this, mainly that the whole 'NotaDebate' thing is ridiculous. Transpeople should be pushing for the debate and including womens groups in trans debates as much as possible and the ones who are trying to shut down feminist opinions and prevent discussion are harming their cause. Both sides need to listen to each other more and try and understand where the other is coming from. Femnists need to try and understand what it's like for a trangender woman trying to fit in in society and that they aren't trying to take anything away from cis-women, and transgender women need to stop trying to shut people down, labelling people as transphobic and 'terfs'. I do think that a lot of the negative behaviour from trans people comes from a general feeling that they have never really been listened to and that must be pretty frustrating when you're trying to argue about something like gender identity which you can't prove, but yes of course they shouldn't be attacking. I think when it comes to twitter trolls though and things like death and rape threats that as sick as they are they can't really be used as a barometer of what the general thought is or be representative of all or most transgender people. People get death threats over twitter for insulting Justin Bieber :laugh: like I'm not trying to make light of it I just don't think that these people or their views are representative. And I'm sure transgender people experience a lot of abuse and threats on their twitter accounts too.
I also think that some of what's in that first link is misleading though and problematic to the debate. Assuming perversion in a transgender woman wanting to use a female changing room. Suggesting an agenda with regards to stonewall adding transgender people to their remit. I don't like how it uses lesbians and gay men as examples of groups who may be affected because "new gender-identity laws may make it impossible for them to have single-sex events and organisations", where exactly would my friend who is female to male fit into this? and how would it negatively impact me if he came to a male only event? I also think a lot the language is manipulative and trying to generate fear where there doesn't need to be fear which isn't helpful. But I think I do have a better understanding of feminist opinion than I had before.

Anyway I think i'm pretty alone on here with most of this but my overall feeling is that both sides need to stop attacking and insulting each other because certain things are going to change, that just seems to be the way things are going, and so there needs to be more cooperation between different womens groups and trans groups, but for me I don't believe that the definition of 'woman' as a word being inclusive of transgender women actually disadvantages cisgender women,( I get that's where a lot of people fundamentally disagree and I understand why so fair enough but that's just how I feel about it), but I don't see it as a fusion of trans and cis women into one, an absorption of men into the category of women, I see it as cooperative, something where the differences that exist between the two can still be acknowledged and respected, and for it to be acceptable to point those differences out if it's relevant to do so without fear of losing a job, but at the same time for trans women to feel accepted by society, have a legitimate place in society, and be acknowledged as the gender they feel they are.


https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/15/14910900/chimamanda-ngozi-adichie-transgender-women-comments-apology

I think this is a great article and explains much of how I feel really well, it's pretty long but the main points that resonate with me are:

This is the basic point that Adichie seemed to be making — that the experience of being “women born female,” as she put it, and the experience of transitioning to a woman just aren’t the same, and that it’s foolish to pretend they are.

But when trans advocates and allies say that “trans women are women,” they’re not actually trying to say that transgender women are the same as cisgender women (women who aren’t transgender). They’re trying to say that these differences shouldn’t disqualify trans women from the broader category of “womanhood.”

Neither gender nor biological sex is quite as simple as what’s on your birth certificate, trans advocates argue. And even if we don’t know what causes gender dysphoria, that doesn’t make it any less real for the people who experience it.

“I think that for people who have been wounded by gendering, it's quite accurate and understandable to say, ‘You don't share the same wound that I share,’” said Susan Stryker, associate professor of gender and women’s issues at the University of Arizona. “Where I start to have a problem with that argument is when it gets used to challenge trans people's access to gendered public space.”

When you get down to it, transgender women are making pretty basic requests of feminism. They want to be heard and included. They want the freedom to be who they are in public and in society, with no exceptions or qualifiers. And they want to stop being forced to defend their womanhood, their basic sense of self, and their humanity, against people who consider those things to be up for debate.

(Laverne Cox's tweets in this article regarding 'male privilege' are also really interesting to read)

[Jamie89]

(There was an article on the BBC website about Lily today btw)...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/42167494/lily-madigan-i-want-to-be-labours-first-transgender-mp

[The Slim Reaper]

It's refreshing to see that women are starting to realise just how much more knowledgeable men are when it comes to life.

I hope the feminazi's don't force out this courageous young 19yr old dude.

[Niamh.]

It's refreshing to see that women are starting to realise just how much more knowledgeable men are when it comes to life.

I hope the feminazi's don't force out this courageous young 19yr old dude.

mmhhmm in a nut shell

[The Slim Reaper]

mmhhmm in a nut shell

Probably 2 nut shells if we're being accurate.

[Niamh.]

Probably 2 nut shells if we're being accurate.

:laugh:

[Vicky.]

The assumption that they do is actually segregation based on sexuality, more than it is based on sex. The assumption that if men and women share a unisex toilet that men as abusers may try and assault the women (under this logic gay men should be banned from using male public toilets to protect the other men who are using them).

I don't understand this comparison at all to be honest. There is a lot of evidence of men being more violent (and especially more sexually violent) than women. Is there evidence that gay men (or gay women) are more violent than straight ones? I don't really see the need with mixing up sexuality and 'gender'. It actually quite annoys me when talking about this stuff and people are like 'oh but you would change next to a lesbian, whats the difference?!'

However, now that you have said about not agreeing with sex segregation to start with, I now completely understand how you do not see an issue with this. And also understand how you think that taking away womens rights (to areas segregated by sex) is not problematic.

So this will go round and round in circles as I do see need for sex segregation (maybe not in loos, provided the cubicles are full floor to ceiling and such) in certain areas of life :laugh: Maybe due to having different life experiences tbh.

[Niamh.]

I don't understand this comparison at all to be honest. There is a lot of evidence of men being more violent (and especially more sexually violent) than women. Is there evidence that gay men (or gay women) are more violent than straight ones? I don't really see the need with mixing up sexuality and 'gender'. It actually quite annoys me when talking about this stuff and people are like 'oh but you would change next to a lesbian, whats the difference?!'

However, now that you have said about not agreeing with sex segregation to start with, I now completely understand how you do not see an issue with this. And also understand how you think that taking away womens rights (to areas segregated by sex) is not problematic.

So this will go round and round in circles as I do see need for sex segregation (maybe not in loos, provided the cubicles are full floor to ceiling and such) in certain areas of life :laugh: Maybe due to having different life experiences tbh.

This is a huge thing imo.

Also, what are the stats on girl to girl rape/sexual assault? It's not something you hear of regularly ..............or ever

[Vicky.]

As a side note, do you know you are actually a 'terf' for identifying a need for sex segregation in sports? :D

And may I suggest

and how would it negatively impact me if he came to a male only event?

Maybe it wouldn't. Can you see how it could be problematic for a woman only event to have men there? Especially, for example a lesbian event. Where the women there are already hassled by many men on a regular basis simply for refusing to worship the almighty penis?

[Vicky.]

https://fairplayforwomen.com/james-obrien-topshop

This is an interesting female take on this topic. It may be hard to see, as a male, what its like to go through life as a woman (I know I can't begin to imagine what its like to go through life as a bloke). And why many many women would feel uncomfortable getting rid of sex segregation. Not all women, some would be happy with it as no group will ever agree 100%. But I would bet that more women would be uncomfortable with it, than comfortable.

This part in particular is interesting when discussing how sex segregation is not needed..

In the UK where women have sex segregation, only 10% of sex crime (98% of which is committed by men, 90% of the victims of which are female) is opportunistic. In India, where there is no sex segregation, 90% of sex crime is opportunistic. The women’s liberation movement campaigned for single sex spaces so that women could have a PUBLIC LIFE. Read up on the history of the first women’s public toilet in London. Women were beaten in the streets for wanting that because women’s place was in the home. We are entitled to go about our lawful business without harassment from men, we are allowed to SAY NO TO PENIS in our private spaces. Traumatized women, raped women, religious women, lesbian women, shy women, teenage girls are ALLOWED BOUNDARIES. It’s not about you in the cubicle next to us, it’s about MEN. If you are denying that men are committing epidemic levels of violence and depravity against women and girls, all over the world, you are deluded.

[Niamh.]

https://fairplayforwomen.com/james-obrien-topshop

This is an interesting female take on this topic. It may be hard to see, as a male, what its like to go through life as a woman (I know I can't begin to imagine what its like to go through life as a bloke). And why many many women would feel uncomfortable getting rid of sex segregation. Not all women, some would be happy with it as no group will ever agree 100%. But I would bet that more women would be uncomfortable with it, than comfortable.

This part in particular is interesting when discussing how sex segregation is not needed..

That was a good read Vicky

[Vicky.]

Yeah I know. James Obrien was such a ****ing knobhead on that.

It makes sense that men do not really know what its like, and as such cannot truly understand. As I said, I could not imagine what its like being a man in this world, anymore than I can imagine how it feels to be a donkey rather than a person

[Niamh.]

Yeah I know. James Obrien was such a ****ing knobhead on that.

It makes sense that men do not really know what its like, and as such cannot truly understand. As I said, I could not imagine what its like being a man in this world, anymore than I can imagine how a donkey feels.

Well exactly, I mean aside from the biological stuff, being a woman is a lifetime of being treated like a woman. All this wearing pink and playing with dolls BS drives me crazy, plenty of girls aren't into things like that, that doesn't make them men and it certainly isn't what makes someone a woman.

How dare that guy make that woman feel like she's some sort of bigot for not being comfortable sharing a place where she's undressing with a man. Would he be happy with his 16 year old daughter undressing in front of men?

[Northern Monkey]

Lot of man hate in here.Men are sexually assaulted by women all the time.The amount of times i had my meat and veg grabbed whilst on nights out by women,and arse grabbed more times than i could count.They’d raid the mens toilet to watch you piss or in some cases touch you.It’s not all women are angels and men are the bad bastards.It’s just that men don’t report it.

I do agree we should have segregated changing rooms and toilets though.Women and men should be able to dress/pee in their own spaces as there are pervs out there.
The only real answer is probably a third trans changing room or toilet or prison wing.No way should womens rights be degraded in favour of a small minorities demands.

[Niamh.]

Lot of man hate in here.Men are sexually assaulted by women all the time.The amount of times i had my meat and veg grabbed whilst on nights out by women,and arse grabbed more times than i could count.They’d raid the mens toilet to watch you piss or in some cases touch you.It’s not all women are angels and men are the bad bastards.It’s just that men don’t report it.

I do agree we should have segregated changing rooms and toilets though.Women and men should be able to dress/pee in their own spaces as there are pervs out there.
The only real answer is probably a third trans changing room or toilet or prison wing.No way should womens rights be degraded in favour of a small minorities demands.Do you think my posts are man hating? If so which ones and why? Other than that I agree with your post

[DemolitionRed]

I think more like Jamie89 because there was so much I agreed with in his post. I can see why its a problem for lesbians, especially at lesbian only events and I honestly don't know what the solution is, other than what Jamie suggested. Otherwise, is this really a problem? this link says otherwise https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/debunking-bathroom-myths_b_8670438.html

In France we are brought up with shared sex changing rooms (a bit like Center Parc) and although there's often a ladies and a mans toilet, nobody bats an eyelid if men use the ladies or ladies use the mens. When my children reached an age where they could use the loo alone, I was much happier for my eight, nine year old sons to use the mens, where I could go in and look for them if I was worried and it was more comfortable for me to do that in France than it was in the UK. If my husband was out with our young daughter in France, he'd simply take her into the ladies but in the UK he had to walk her past the urinals. As far as I'm concerned, 'not worried about your sex toilets' for children are safer because parents can go with them or go in and check on they are okay.

It sounds to me like some of these female activists are under the impression that all men, especially trans men, are potential rapists or sexual deviants. I think that's wrong. If a rapist is on the prowl for a woman to rape he's going to find one, regardless of segregated toilets. In fact he can watch a woman walk into a Womens toilets and just follow her in. He doesn't have to pretend he's anything other than a man.

[DemolitionRed]

Double post. Having trouble with the site atm.

[Northern Monkey]

Do you think my posts are man hating? If so which ones and why? Other than that I agree with your post

No,Not really from any members i don’t think,More the feminist articles screaming in caps MEN are the problem etc.Blanket statements like this don’t encourage male support.Men are not the problem,Pervs are the problem.
Women aren’t all angels either.Some women are just as pervy but that seems to be either accepted or ignored.
I’m all for womens rights but angry third and fourth wave feminists don’t help their cause(Whatever that is).They dont exactly encourage support.

[Jamie89]

I don't understand this comparison at all to be honest. There is a lot of evidence of men being more violent (and especially more sexually violent) than women. Is there evidence that gay men (or gay women) are more violent than straight ones? I don't really see the need with mixing up sexuality and 'gender'. It actually quite annoys me when talking about this stuff and people are like 'oh but you would change next to a lesbian, whats the difference?!'

Maybe I didn't explain it well but I wasn't trying to mix up gender and sexuality. I'll try again lol. First of all yes when it comes to sexual violence the vast majority of abusers are men, straight/bi/gay doesn't make a difference as far as I'm aware. My point was that the argument itself of women being in danger if men are present in an area such as public toilets, suggests that it is sexuality, or sexual attraction, that is the point of focus there. So my comparison was to say that if the problem is men being in an area where they may be sexually attracted to somebody, and the likelihood of them being an abuser is great because they are male, would also be applicable to gay men in a mens public toilet, and the danger they would present to other men. Not that gay men ar emore likely to abuse than straight men or anything along those lines. My actual distinction is that sexuality doesn't make a difference and that I don't believe sexual attraction whichever way it is directed causes women or anyone else to be in danger in an area such as a public toilet that happens to be inhabited by someone who may be sexually attracted to them. And I'm basing this on there currently being many gender neutral spaces where risk of abuse isn't heightened, and also by the fact that many men use public toilets and aren't considered to be at risk from male abusers who may be sexually attracted to them.

However, now that you have said about not agreeing with sex segregation to start with, I now completely understand how you do not see an issue with this. And also understand how you think that taking away womens rights (to areas segregated by sex) is not problematic.

So this will go round and round in circles as I do see need for sex segregation (maybe not in loos, provided the cubicles are full floor to ceiling and such) in certain areas of life :laugh: Maybe due to having different life experiences tbh.

I'm not saying that though Vicky, again maybe I didn't explain myself well but I'm saying that sex segration is necessary in some areas and not in others and you've said a similar thing yourself with regards to toilets. One of the distinctions for me is danger, I mentioned prisons and violent criminals. Another is sports, where I'd consider it to be common sense that where you have a sport that is meant to test biological strength for example, that men and women have biological differences so segregation on biological sex makes sense to me. But areas where it comes down to a feeling of discomfort rather than actual danger I don't see as being necessary because that's to do with social norms and those can change. It's not an all or nothing thing for me and I'd like to think that although I have different life experiences I'm still able to acknowledge if a situation presents a danger to women. I may not know the feelings associated with those situations but I'm talking about real threat of danger rather than feelings. If you believe sex segregation should be based on feelings and social norms though then I completely understand that, I'm just coming from a different perspective and I don't believe that what I'm saying infringes on womens rights in general as I'm taking into account womens safety in all of this.

As a side note, do you know you are actually a 'terf' for identifying a need for sex segregation in sports? :D

Yes I suppose I am :laugh: Good thing I'm not on twitter. But like I said I don't think throwing terms like terf around to shut people down is helpful anyway and I'm not trying to agree with all aspects of what the general transactivist line of thinking is, my own personal views just tend to be the same as a lot of theirs, but yes not all my views are, I'm trying to look at all sides of it and form my own views and as much as you and I still disagree on most of it you've been a massive help on that and I have changed some of my views based on things I've read during these discussions. For example I was firmly against Germaine Greer when the controversy surrounding her comments came out and I considered her transphobic but now I have a much better understanding of where she was coming from (even if I do still disagree with her) and I feel I have a better understanding of how feminists feel on these issues even if my views don't line up with a lot of theirs, I wouldn't like to be called anti-feminist as a result of that or anti-womens rights, or a terf for not agreeing completely with the other side.

And may I suggest



Maybe it wouldn't. Can you see how it could be problematic for a woman only event to have men there? Especially, for example a lesbian event. Where the women there are already hassled by many men on a regular basis simply for refusing to worship the almighty penis?

It depends on the event I suppose but generally I can't see why a transgender woman being at a womans event (lesbian or otherwise) would be a problem. The suggestion in the article was that the event would be to do with dating and whilst I'm firmly against the idea that a lesbian should have to be attracted to a transgender woman with a penis (I've seen your posts regarding that and I agree with all of what you're saying), I don't see the harm in allowing a transgender woman to attend an event such as that. There may be lesbians there who wouldn't mind dating a transgender woman with a penis, there's all sorts of people out there. You get gay men who only date trans women, I've got a straight female friend who's husband underwent sex reasignment surgery, so there's all sorts of different people out there and I'm not talking about anyone being forced to be attracted to someone, or harassed to worship their penises, but allowing someone who may not fit the 'usual' to be included in an event such as that and not being disallowed because there are other people who harass and bully and abuse. Edit to add: if there is a transgender woman who is also a lesbian and wants to meet a woman, should they not be allowed to look for that? As long as they aren't harassing or bullying anyone at the event.

[DemolitionRed]

Can a heterosexual woman attend a lesbian event? Can a bi woman attend a lesbian event?

[Vicky.]

If you believe sex segregation should be based on feelings and social norms though then I completely understand that, I'm just coming from a different perspective and I don't believe that what I'm saying infringes on womens rights in general as I'm taking into account womens safety in all of this.

I definitely do not agree that sex segregation should be based on feelings and social norms D: Though some do seem to think changing rooms and such are separated by 'gender' rather than sex. For some odd reason.

But personally I think women and men should have areas where they can be changed and such free from the opposite sex. Both for safety and privacy reasons. I genuinely do not see how this is classed as such a radical view these days. But it is.

And I still do not think a 19year old man who is (from near every interview he has done) entirely focused on transgender women should be a womans officer :tongue:

[Vicky.]

And for some reason every ****ing post I make is going through twice or 2 times :facepalm:

DR, how on earth would you police that? Given you cannot see sexuality and it is down to the persons say so?

[Jamie89]

I definitely do not agree that sex segregation should be based on feelings and social norms D: Though some do seem to think changing rooms and such are separated by 'gender' rather than sex. For some odd reason.

But personally I think women and men should have areas where they can be changed and such free from the opposite sex. Both for safety and privacy reasons. I genuinely do not see how this is classed as such a radical view these days. But it is.

And I still do not think a 19year old man who is (from near every interview he has done) entirely focused on transgender women should be a womans officer :tongue:

I didn't mean the decision of how to split the sexes being dependant on feelings or social norms (I'm guessing that's what you thought I meant), I meant the actual decision as to whether or not they should be segregated in the first place (which you've already answered I'm just clarifying what I meant by that bit you quoted).

I've read a couple of Lily's interviews and they do focus heavily on her being transgender, but that's the story, it's not really her fault that that's what the interviews focus on. She does also talk about non transgender issues and discusses her womens forums etc, those things aren't going to be the focus of the articles though.

[jaxie]

This is a very interesting thread. I more or less agree with everything Vicky has said so don't have a lot to add. I simply don't understand why anyone but a man would feel comfortable having unisex changing rooms or toilets. While a man might be comfortable getting changed in front of a group of strange women, I would not feel comfortable in front of a group of strange men who are not related to me. This would be very intimidating and uncomfortable. A lesbian or bi woman is a woman and I would not be at all bothered sharing a changing room with either. Most men's toilets smell a lot worse than women's, men are welcome to those too, and to any chance a phone might come under the door when you have a wee, (don't tell it would never happen, filming up girls skirts without permission is already a thing) or coming out of a cubicle into a crowd of tipsy blokes. No thanks.

[Brillopad]

This is a very interesting thread. I more or less agree with everything Vicky has said so don't have a lot to add. I simply don't understand why anyone but a man would feel comfortable having unisex changing rooms or toilets. While a man might be comfortable getting changed in front of a group of strange women, I would not feel comfortable in front of a group of strange men who are not related to me. This would be very intimidating and uncomfortable. A lesbian or bi woman is a woman and I would not be at all bothered sharing a changing room with either. Most men's toilets smell a lot worse than women's, men are welcome to those too, and to any chance a phone might come under the door when you have a wee, (don't tell it would never happen, filming up girls skirts without permission is already a thing) or coming out of a cubicle into a crowd of tipsy blokes. No thanks.

Completely agree.

But once again it seems to be about men, or to be more exact, men who self identify as women, rather than those born as women. Seems to be a pattern here.

There has to be a unisex option as well as women cannot be forced to accept sharing bathrooms/toilets with men who simply self-identify as women, which is clearly open to considerable abuse.

What about young vulnerable girls out on their own needing to use the loo. Sex attacks on young women are on the increase and this is no time to be getting all PC and putting the rights of one group before the rights and safety of another group.

[Kizzy]

Completely agree.

But once again it seems to be about men, or to be more exact, men who self identify as women, rather than those born as women. Seems to be a pattern here.

There has to be a unisex option as well as women cannot be forced to accept sharing bathrooms/toilets with men who simply self-identify as women, which is clearly open to considerable abuse.

What about young vulnerable girls out on their own needing to use the loo. Sex attacks on young women are on the increase and this is no time to be getting all PC and putting the rights of one group before the rights and safety of another group.

Are you suggesting it's transwomen attacking girls?

[Brillopad]

Are you suggesting it's transwomen attacking girls?

No I am clearly suggesting that predatory men posing as transwomen, hardly difficult to do if all they have to do is self-identify, are and will be presented with an easier method of doing so if they can legitimately hang around the female bathrooms.

[user104658]

Are you suggesting it's transwomen attacking girls?

I suppose the worry would not be that it's genuine transwomen who are attacking people, but rather, that people who are inclined to attack people might opportunistically abuse the situation by claiming to be trans in order to access female facilities.

IMO though, the solution is individual self contained unisex toilets (with toilet and hand basin) :shrug:.

As for changing facilities... I dunno if it's just around here... but the vast majority of clothing shops and supermarkets are NOT segregated / with just curtains, there is just one area with a number of individual locking changing rooms? I don't see why that model would be a problem in sports / swimming facilities, also. Frankly it would be better for a lot of people; plenty don't like getting changed in front of anyone, regardless of gender, and would prefer total privacy.

[edit] It would also be much better for families and especially dads with those "awkward age" kids like my eldest. Up until maybe 4 or 5 she had no problem coming into men's changing... and I'm sure once she's 10 or 11 she will happily go into the womens on her own. Currently, though, aged 8, it's an impossible situation if I take her swimming on my own. She refuses to go into men's changing (and it isn't really appropriate for her to), but also is nervous about going into the women's on her own and obviously I can't join her. Genuinely don't see why it can't be a communal locker area with individual, secure changing booths.

[Kizzy]

I suppose the worry would not be that it's genuine transwomen who are attacking people, but rather, that people who are inclined to attack people might opportunistically abuse the situation by claiming to be trans in order to access female facilities.

IMO though, the solution is individual self contained unisex toilets (with toilet and hand basin) :shrug:.

As for changing facilities... I dunno if it's just around here... but the vast majority of clothing shops and supermarkets are NOT segregated / with just curtains, there is just one area with a number of individual locking changing rooms? I don't see why that model would be a problem in sports / swimming facilities, also. Frankly it would be better for a lot of people; plenty don't like getting changed in front of anyone, regardless of gender, and would prefer total privacy.

[edit] It would also be much better for families and especially dads with those "awkward age" kids like my eldest. Up until maybe 4 or 5 she had no problem coming into men's changing... and I'm sure once she's 10 or 11 she will happily go into the womens on her own. Currently, though, aged 8, it's an impossible situation if I take her swimming on my own. She refuses to go into men's changing (and it isn't really appropriate for her to), but also is nervous about going into the women's on her own and obviously I can't join her. Genuinely don't see why it can't be a communal locker area with individual, secure changing booths.

Brillo had clarified before you posted.

Why would your swimming issue specifically affect dads?... I had exactly the same issue taking my son swimming :/

I believe everyone has a right to privacy, young, old whatever gender or non gender. If the swim, gym, toilet can't accommodate those needs then find another.

[The Slim Reaper]

I just use the disabled toilet; it's always cleaner and more room.

[user104658]

Brillo had clarified before you posted.

Why would your swimming issue specifically affect dads?... I had exactly the same issue taking my son swimming :/

I believe everyone has a right to privacy, young, old whatever gender or non gender. If the swim, gym, toilet can't accommodate those needs then find another.

OK yes, it probably affects both in many ways. Although frankly... people tend to have far less issue with a male child being in a female changing area than they do with a female child being in a male changing area.

[Niamh.]

I suppose the worry would not be that it's genuine transwomen who are attacking people, but rather, that people who are inclined to attack people might opportunistically abuse the situation by claiming to be trans in order to access female facilities.

IMO though, the solution is individual self contained unisex toilets (with toilet and hand basin) :shrug:.

As for changing facilities... I dunno if it's just around here... but the vast majority of clothing shops and supermarkets are NOT segregated / with just curtains, there is just one area with a number of individual locking changing rooms? I don't see why that model would be a problem in sports / swimming facilities, also. Frankly it would be better for a lot of people; plenty don't like getting changed in front of anyone, regardless of gender, and would prefer total privacy.

[edit] It would also be much better for families and especially dads with those "awkward age" kids like my eldest. Up until maybe 4 or 5 she had no problem coming into men's changing... and I'm sure once she's 10 or 11 she will happily go into the womens on her own. Currently, though, aged 8, it's an impossible situation if I take her swimming on my own. She refuses to go into men's changing (and it isn't really appropriate for her to), but also is nervous about going into the women's on her own and obviously I can't join her. Genuinely don't see why it can't be a communal locker area with individual, secure changing booths.I've been to few pools that had family cubicles which are very handy

[AnnieK]

OK yes, it probably affects both in many ways. Although frankly... people tend to have far less issue with a male child being in a female changing area than they do with a female child being in a male changing area.

I have the same problem with my son aged 7....although he's adamant he wants to go on the mens on his own, luckily our local pool has family changing rooms

[Kizzy]

OK yes, it probably affects both in many ways. Although frankly... people tend to have far less issue with a male child being in a female changing area than they do with a female child being in a male changing area.

I thought your angle was the wishes of the child?
thanks for mansplaining this for me though :)

[user104658]

I thought your angle was the wishes of the child?
thanks for mansplaining this for me though :)

Oh Kizzy... you're really barking up the wrong tree if you're going to start with the tired, tedious, militant feminist twitter-war "mansplaining" rhetoric. Let's just maybe not go there.

[Kizzy]

Oh Kizzy... you're really barking up the wrong tree if you're going to start with the tired, tedious, militant feminist twitter-war "mansplaining" rhetoric. Let's just maybe not go there.

It was a joke but it didn't take long for that insult to surface......*judges you

[user104658]

I've been to few pools that had family cubicles which are very handy

The one I went to when I was a kid had three full areas (men's, women's and family) and it seemed like a really simple solution - but I've yet to see another pool with that set up since! A couple with one or two separate family change rooms, but usually with a queue to use them.

[user104658]

It was a joke but it didn't take long for that insult to surface......*judges you

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a joke :suspect: but anyway, militant feminism is just an accurate and fair description of the word "mansplaining", rather than an insult :shrug:.

[Vicky.]

The one I went to when I was a kid had three full areas (men's, women's and family) and it seemed like a really simple solution - but I've yet to see another pool with that set up since! A couple with one or two separate family change rooms, but usually with a queue to use them.

Yup it would be good if places would do this.


Male, female and unisex/family. Would be perfect really and surely would solve all the arguments over this issue. Any man who doesn't want to use the mens could go into the unisex rather than the womens. Transactivists do not want this though, as apparently its 'othering' to trans people. But...they ARE 'other' as they are males who 'feel like' women rather than actual women, and vice versa. So 'othering' is completely right in this case.

But yes, places really should start catering more for everyone. That will take a lot of time and money mind. Which is why I think so many are happy to just chuck men in with women. Who cares what the women think about it, its cheaper and easier and we also get to look 'right on!' D:

(I speak mainly of transwomen rather than transmen, because there are so many cases of 'transwomen' wailing about wanting to be in the womens. Never hear of transmen wanting into the mens. Seems for some odd reason, the womens is where everyone wants to be. I wonder why that is :think:)

[Vicky.]

And about 'mansplaining'

https://www.indy100.com/article/mansplaining-twitter-viral-tweet-harrassment-pub-maud-dromgoole-je-ne-sais-quoi-8066751

Saw this a few days back and this mini argument reminded me of it :D

[user104658]

And about 'mansplaining'

https://www.indy100.com/article/mansplaining-twitter-viral-tweet-harrassment-pub-maud-dromgoole-je-ne-sais-quoi-8066751

Saw this a few days back and this mini argument reminded me of it :D

But it's hypocritical bull**** - like this article itself is a paradox! She is trying to womansplain "mansplaining" :joker:.

[Kizzy]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a joke :suspect: but anyway, militant feminism is just an accurate and fair description of the word "mansplaining", rather than an insult :shrug:.

You're doing it again!... just stop LOL

[Vicky.]

But it's hypocritical bull**** - like this article itself is a paradox! She is trying to womansplain "mansplaining" :joker:.

What do you think mansplaining is?

My understanding of the phrase is men talking down to women about something that women already know. Like in the article, the actual mansplaining part..when she answered what je ne sais quoi meant...the guy didn't even know himself but continued to explain even though she had already bloody answered.

Mansplaining is not just a man explaining...many think it is :laugh: It does get overused though sometimes. When I first explained what it meant to my husband, he said a lot of men will 'mansplain' to him too. Just seems to be much more common for men to do it to women. Some women may also may do it to men, I accept that. But noone in that article is 'womansplaining' :suspect:

[Kizzy]

What do you think mansplaining is?

My understanding of the phrase is men talking down to women about something that women already know. Like in the article, the actual mansplaining part..when she answered what je ne sais quoi meant...the guy didn't even know himself but continued to explain even though she had already bloody answered.

Mansplaining is not just a man explaining...many think it is :laugh: It does get overused though sometimes. When I first explained what it meant to my husband, he said a lot of men will 'mansplain' to him too. Just seems to be much more common for men to do it to women. Some women may also may do it to men, I accept that. But noone in that article is 'womansplaining' :suspect:

'the guy didn't even know himself but continued to explain even though she had already bloody answered.'

Like TS did in this thread?... :idc:

[Jamie89]

Yup it would be good if places would do this.


Male, female and unisex/family. Would be perfect really and surely would solve all the arguments over this issue. Any man who doesn't want to use the mens could go into the unisex rather than the womens. Transactivists do not want this though, as apparently its 'othering' to trans people. But...they ARE 'other' as they are males who 'feel like' women rather than actual women, and vice versa. So 'othering' is completely right in this case.

But yes, places really should start catering more for everyone. That will take a lot of time and money mind. Which is why I think so many are happy to just chuck men in with women. Who cares what the women think about it, its cheaper and easier and we also get to look 'right on!' D:

(I speak mainly of transwomen rather than transmen, because there are so many cases of 'transwomen' wailing about wanting to be in the womens. Never hear of transmen wanting into the mens. Seems for some odd reason, the womens is where everyone wants to be. I wonder why that is :think:)

Is this accurate? I would have thought it's more the case that transwomen are more often denied the use of women's facilities (because of the perceived danger of a man being in a womans space) and therefore speak up as a reaction to that happening, whereas transmen often don't face the same denials. I don't know of any transmen who would rather use womens facilities, they use the mens and it just kind of goes unreported and therefore we don't hear about it.

[Vicky.]

Is this accurate? I would have thought it's more the case that transwomen are more often denied the use of women's facilities (because of the perceived danger of a man being in a womans space) and therefore speak up as a reaction to that happening, whereas transmen often don't face the same denials. I don't know of any transmen who would rather use womens facilities, they use the mens and it just kind of goes unreported and therefore we don't hear about it.

There is one story in the press about a transman wanting into male facilities, and they were told no. There are hundreds and hundreds of cases of transwomen wanting into womens facilities. Transwomen who pass are not an issue at all, as obviously they pass. Its always the very obvious male people who are screaming on about wanting into the ladies...

I know this is not representative at all as its reddit, but I read the 'asktransgender' bit a lot to try and understand more, and its very common for transmen to be nervous about using male areas and they still use the womens (but feel they should be demanding access to the mens so as to support transwomen in their fight :rolleyes: ). As its unsafe for them in the mens basically, which it is obvious. A person with a vagina going into an entirely male area and stripping off..well its asking for trouble really isn't it. It might not happen the first time, or the tenth, but eventually they will be attacked.

There was a very sad case not long ago of a transman who was raped by a taxi driver. Apparently they were sobbing 'but I am a man' all the way through and could not understand why he continued after finding out the sex she is 'in her head'. Because gender identity means **** all to most people. You were raped as you have a female body. 'Gender identity' is nothing at all. So sad that some people buy into it so much that they think everyone else does too.

[user104658]

What do you think mansplaining is?

My understanding of the phrase is men talking down to women about something that women already know. Like in the article, the actual mansplaining part..when she answered what je ne sais quoi meant...the guy didn't even know himself but continued to explain even though she had already bloody answered.

Mansplaining is not just a man explaining...many think it is :laugh: It does get overused though sometimes. When I first explained what it meant to my husband, he said a lot of men will 'mansplain' to him too. Just seems to be much more common for men to do it to women. Some women may also may do it to men, I accept that. But noone in that article is 'womansplaining' :suspect:

Even if your understanding of the phrase is correct, the phrase itself is needlessly and deliberately aggressive and inflammatory. Also there's the fact that it is often not used in this context at all and is, in fact, used as a catch-all jibe against any male who dares openly disagree with a female's interpretation of anything. It IS used to shoot down "a man explaining" - any man, explaining anything.

The example used sounds like an arrogant arsehole, a know-it-all perhaps, but I 100% guarantee he speaks in the same way to other males when he thinks he knows best. Also the idea that it's an exclusively male phenomenon is nonsense... either that, or whoever wrote it has never been on TiBB :idc:.

There's also the sort of problematic fact that they are both right and wrong - she gave him the literal translation of the phrase but that doesn't explain what the phrase actually translates to at all - his "mansplaination" of what it means is a less literal translation but actually a more accurate description of what the phrase means.

[user104658]

'the guy didn't even know himself but continued to explain even though she had already bloody answered.'

Like TS did in this thread?... :idc:

What was I "mansplaining"? You claimed that you said something as a joke, I told you that I didn't believe you. I wasn't explaining anything, I was calling you a liar :hee:. And given that you've since then quite clearly confirmed that you weren't joking at all, that seems to have been a justified assessment.

[Kizzy]

What was I "mansplaining"? You claimed that you said something as a joke, I told you that I didn't believe you. I wasn't explaining anything, I was calling you a liar :hee:. And given that you've since then quite clearly confirmed that you weren't joking at all, that seems to have been a justified assessment.

I didn't know for certain what it was myself until Vicky posted that... but if the shoe fits? :shrug:

[user104658]

I didn't know for certain what it was myself until Vicky posted that... but if the shoe fits? :shrug:Until Vicky womansplained it to you, surely.

[Jamie89]

There is one story in the press about a transman wanting into male facilities, and they were told no. There are hundreds and hundreds of cases of transwomen wanting into womens facilities. Transwomen who pass are not an issue at all, as obviously they pass. Its always the very obvious male people who are screaming on about wanting into the ladies...

Yes but I would have thought that's because of transwomen being more likely than transmen to get stopped and therefore a story to arise from it, rather than the actual want of using facilities for their gender identity being different across transmen and transwomen in general.

I know this is not representative at all as its reddit, but I read the 'asktransgender' bit a lot to try and understand more, and its very common for transmen to be nervous about using male areas and they still use the womens (but feel they should be demanding access to the mens so as to support transwomen in their fight :rolleyes: ). As its unsafe for them in the mens basically, which it is obvious. A person with a vagina going into an entirely male area and stripping off..well its asking for trouble really isn't it. It might not happen the first time, or the tenth, but eventually they will be attacked.

If they're going to be naked and on display then that's probably true, although I think those environments are pretty rare since mens toilets and changing rooms etc mostly have cubicles.
Thinking about it my friend who is transman does use the womens in one bar we sometimes go to because the mens cubicles don't have doors (he's transsexual but still has a vagina), he'd still prefer to use mens facilities though. He actually looks like a man though so when he does have to use the womens he's always afraid of a reaction. He can't really win lol.

There was a very sad case not long ago of a transman who was raped by a taxi driver. Apparently they were sobbing 'but I am a man' all the way through and could not understand why he continued after finding out the sex she is 'in her head'. Because gender identity means **** all to most people. You were raped as you have a female body. 'Gender identity' is nothing at all. So sad that some people buy into it so much that they think everyone else does too.

That's heartbreaking </3 And yes gender identity means **** all to a lot of people and a rapist certainly isn't going to care but I don't think that shows it doesn't exist. I won't get into all of that again lol I think you know how I feel about it but somebody not having experienced it or not believing it or not caring about it doesn't make it less real for somebody that does experience it.

[Kizzy]

Until Vicky womansplained it to you, surely.

Don't be silly... that's not a thing, stop trying to make womansplaining a thing!

[user104658]

Don't be silly... that's not a thing, stop trying to make womansplaining a thing!It is a thing, things are only things when people say they're things, and I say that this thing is a thing. Just like I couldn't get my head around the game "Roblox High School" until my daughter childsplained it to me... And I didn't know that poor Morty's water bottle was empty until he hamstersplained how thirsty he was :worry:. It would have been so awkward if he got ill and I'd had to take him in to have it vetsplained to me.

[Kizzy]

It is a thing, things are only things when people say they're things, and I say that this thing is a thing. Just like I couldn't get my head around the game "Roblox High School" until my daughter childsplained it to me... And I didn't know that poor Morty's water bottle was empty until he hamstersplained how thirsty he was :worry:. It would have been so awkward if he got ill and I'd had to take him in to have it vetsplained to me.

:joker: Aw go lie down in a dark room #kizzplaining

[Vicky.]

I think most people socialized as female would feel uncomfortable going into male areas. Without sounding all 'militant feminist' here, women are pretty much taught to fear men...mainly through mens own actions. For example, the first time I was sexually assaulted I was 11. I had just started to grow tits and a random guy on the street first was whistling at me (in my school uniform) and them grabbed both tits when I walked past him (trying to ignore). This continues on a fairly regular basis as you are growing up (for most women I assume, at least all women I have spoke to about it). Grown ass men wolf whistling at you, flashing you, groping you. When you tell teachers they don't take it seriously, or in my case will say 'well you weren't actually hurt' and thats it. Sometimes it was reported to the police, who again did not take it seriously and would ask questions like 'why were you alone' which make it seem like the attack was my fault. Then you start (as a teen) getting messages from various places/people about how you should not ever walk home in the dark, avoid alleys, don't get into unlicensed cabs, don't get too drunk as you will be open to being raped, don't wear revealing clothing...and so on. These messages come from all angles..parents, teachers, friends, tv, news..everywhere.

Now, I don't 'fear men' as such. But I damn well know I have to be wary around men I do not know. Chances are, they are absolutely fine. Maybe the messages of fear I got growing up are OTT. But there is also a chance they are NOT fine and are one of the bad ones. As a woman I am unlikely to be able to overcome the average man if he does attack me. I am fairly strong for a woman, but **** all compared to a bloke. I used to think I could overcome most blokes, until I was playfighting with a mate who is smaller than me and fairly thin too. He managed to pin me against a wall and keep me there with little effort. That scared the crap out of me and it seems I have been underestimating the power of testosterone and just...male bodies :laugh:

Not sure what this post has to do with anything. It was going to be a reply to transmen going into male areas, but it has evolved as I have wittered on. But yeah, I don't think transmen would be as comfortable using male areas as they might make out sometimes. Obviously the experience of all female people will not be the same as mine, but I honestly think most women will get where I am coming from with this post, even if their experiences differ a bit. I expect men will read this and think I am attacking all men or something, but I really am not. Just trying to explain a bit of what its actually like to be 'socialized' as female.

[Vicky.]

Actually my post also explains why a lot of women are uncomfortable with men in their changing rooms and such. You don't know if that guy wearing a dress (or not wearing a dress, as transwomen can look just like any other man these days as no 'transition' is required to be 'trans) is a danger or not. And in an area where there should be only females, a bloke pushing his way in kind of says to me that he doesnt care at all about if the women are uncomfortable on bit and he only cares about himself. So hes automatically a dodgy one :S

Obviously this does not apply to 'transwomen' who 'pass' (and these people already use female areas with no issues, so no law change is required at all) as noone is any the wiser unless they start playing helicopter with their dick in the communal part or something. But when its one of the ones who looks like a bloody bloke and yet insists on forcing his way into the womens changing rooms, most women in there will be on alert instantly. And thats not fair at all.

[DemolitionRed]

I think most people socialized as female would feel uncomfortable going into male areas. Without sounding all 'militant feminist' here, women are pretty much taught to fear men...mainly through mens own actions. For example, the first time I was sexually assaulted I was 11. I had just started to grow tits and a random guy on the street first was whistling at me (in my school uniform) and them grabbed both tits when I walked past him (trying to ignore). This continues on a fairly regular basis as you are growing up (for most women I assume, at least all women I have spoke to about it). Grown ass men wolf whistling at you, flashing you, groping you. When you tell teachers they don't take it seriously, or in my case will say 'well you weren't actually hurt' and thats it. Sometimes it was reported to the police, who again did not take it seriously and would ask questions like 'why were you alone' which make it seem like the attack was my fault. Then you start (as a teen) getting messages from various places/people about how you should not ever walk home in the dark, avoid alleys, don't get into unlicensed cabs, don't get too drunk as you will be open to being raped, don't wear revealing clothing...and so on. These messages come from all angles..parents, teachers, friends, tv, news..everywhere.

Now, I don't 'fear men' as such. But I damn well know I have to be wary around men I do not know. Chances are, they are absolutely fine. Maybe the messages of fear I got growing up are OTT. But there is also a chance they are NOT fine and are one of the bad ones. As a woman I am unlikely to be able to overcome the average man if he does attack me. I am fairly strong for a woman, but **** all compared to a bloke. I used to think I could overcome most blokes, until I was playfighting with a mate who is smaller than me and fairly thin too. He managed to pin me against a wall and keep me there with little effort. That scared the crap out of me and it seems I have been underestimating the power of testosterone and just...male bodies :laugh:

Not sure what this post has to do with anything. It was going to be a reply to transmen going into male areas, but it has evolved as I have wittered on. But yeah, I don't think transmen would be as comfortable using male areas as they might make out sometimes. Obviously the experience of all female people will not be the same as mine, but I honestly think most women will get where I am coming from with this post, even if their experiences differ a bit. I expect men will read this and think I am attacking all men or something, but I really am not. Just trying to explain a bit of what its actually like to be 'socialized' as female.

I think some women wrongly believe they could level with a man in a fight. I used to play fight with my ex and I always ended up pinning him to the ground; I didn't think for a minute that he was allowing me to do that. But when Steve (who is a lot smaller than my ex) and me had a play fight, he just held me down with one hand until I was exhausted. When a man means business, he's a lot stronger than a woman and yes, the realization of that is frightening.

As for female areas, its all to do with practice and customs. I think if you'd grown up with it, its not something you'd probably think about.

[Vicky.]

I think some women wrongly believe they could level with a man in a fight. I used to play fight with my ex and I always ended up pinning him to the ground; I didn't think for a minute that he was allowing me to do that. But when Steve (who is a lot smaller than my ex) and me had a play fight, he just held me down with one hand until I was exhausted. When a man means business, he's a lot stronger than a woman and yes, the realization of that is frightening.

As for female areas, its all to do with practice and customs. I think if you'd grown up with it, its not something you'd probably think about.

Yeah, my husband used to hold back when we were 'fighting' which was part of why I thought I could take most men if it came down to it. He is 6ft 3 and not exactly what you would call skinny. He used to swear he was trying...but after this happened with our mate (who is literally like 5foot and can't weigh more than about 9 stone!), he finally admitted that he barely even makes an effort. I did ask him when we were at home to use full strength just so I could see...and it was really ****ing scary. I was pinned in a millisecond and he had me there without using any effort at all.

[Jamie89]

I think most people socialized as female would feel uncomfortable going into male areas. Without sounding all 'militant feminist' here, women are pretty much taught to fear men...mainly through mens own actions. For example, the first time I was sexually assaulted I was 11. I had just started to grow tits and a random guy on the street first was whistling at me (in my school uniform) and them grabbed both tits when I walked past him (trying to ignore). This continues on a fairly regular basis as you are growing up (for most women I assume, at least all women I have spoke to about it). Grown ass men wolf whistling at you, flashing you, groping you. When you tell teachers they don't take it seriously, or in my case will say 'well you weren't actually hurt' and thats it. Sometimes it was reported to the police, who again did not take it seriously and would ask questions like 'why were you alone' which make it seem like the attack was my fault. Then you start (as a teen) getting messages from various places/people about how you should not ever walk home in the dark, avoid alleys, don't get into unlicensed cabs, don't get too drunk as you will be open to being raped, don't wear revealing clothing...and so on. These messages come from all angles..parents, teachers, friends, tv, news..everywhere.

Now, I don't 'fear men' as such. But I damn well know I have to be wary around men I do not know. Chances are, they are absolutely fine. Maybe the messages of fear I got growing up are OTT. But there is also a chance they are NOT fine and are one of the bad ones. As a woman I am unlikely to be able to overcome the average man if he does attack me. I am fairly strong for a woman, but **** all compared to a bloke. I used to think I could overcome most blokes, until I was playfighting with a mate who is smaller than me and fairly thin too. He managed to pin me against a wall and keep me there with little effort. That scared the crap out of me and it seems I have been underestimating the power of testosterone and just...male bodies :laugh:

Not sure what this post has to do with anything. It was going to be a reply to transmen going into male areas, but it has evolved as I have wittered on. But yeah, I don't think transmen would be as comfortable using male areas as they might make out sometimes. Obviously the experience of all female people will not be the same as mine, but I honestly think most women will get where I am coming from with this post, even if their experiences differ a bit. I expect men will read this and think I am attacking all men or something, but I really am not. Just trying to explain a bit of what its actually like to be 'socialized' as female.

Just to clarify with some of the views I've posted in this thread, I don't deny that women have more of these experiences and that our socialisation is different, I had a couple of experiences like this as a child, once when I was with friends and once when I was with my mum and sister, and also twice as an adult in a place of work, but I know this doesn't mean I've been socialised in the same way and that it is a more regular thing for women and I'm not going to have those same feelings of fear, and that my experiences are isolated. But none of my views are denying this is the case, Just thought I'd point that out incase anyone has the wrong impression with some of what I was saying, which is that however real the fear is, danger isn't always present in situations where there might be fear or unease.

[Kizzy]

I can vouch for that vicky, I was assaulted for the first time in an amusement arcade at 10ish, low lighting, hands down my top. rubbed against, cat called, groped, molested by an ex, physically assaulted...

It's hard when on the one hand you are encouraged NOT to put yourself at risk, and then at the same time be so open to the needs of others, it's very conflicting :/

[Vicky.]

Just to clarify with some of the views I've posted in this thread, I don't deny that women have more of these experiences and that our socialisation is different, I had a couple of experiences like this as a child, once when I was with friends and once when I was with my mum and sister, and also twice as an adult in a place of work, but I know this doesn't mean I've been socialised in the same way and that it is a more regular thing for women and I'm not going to have those same feelings of fear, and that my experiences are isolated. But none of my views are denying this is the case, Just thought I'd point that out incase anyone has the wrong impression with some of what I was saying, which is that however real the fear is, danger isn't always present in situations where there might be fear or unease.

Oh I didn't think you were denying this or anything. And sorry you have also had these experiences.

No danger is not always present (as luckily sex offenders are not as common as non-sex offenders), but the fear is always there. For many women anyway. And since we cannot tell which man is dangerous and which is not...its entirely rational to be wary of all men you do not know. IMO anyway.

[Vicky.]

I can vouch for that vicky, I was assaulted for the first time in an amusement arcade at 10ish, low lighting, hands down my top. rubbed against, cat called, groped, molested by an ex, physically assaulted...

It's hard when on the one hand you are encouraged NOT to put yourself at risk, and then at the same time be so open to the needs of others, it's very conflicting :/

Oh yes. You have to be wary, but not too wary as that might upset some people. The messages women get are indeed confusing and contradictory at times.

[user104658]

I can appreciate that it's scarier for women in general just because of the physicality of it. I think it's important to recognise, basically, thatnits not just men who "perv" and I've been catcalled and groped LOADS of times by women (though to be fair, not when I was as young as 10! But from 15 upwards certainly) however there is a definite difference in that while it can be physically uncomfortable, it isn't physically intimidating, as I'm confident that realistically a woman groping me in a bar couldn't actually overpower me outside.

The only one time I've ever been actually intimidated was because a girl tried to stick her tongue down my throat as I was walking across a club, I was like "Err, no thanks!" and then a massive group of her male mates surrounded me and basically went nuts at me for "upsetting her" and threatened me until I let her kiss me. Definitely a totally different experience to being harassed by females and I guess that's the difference; the actual level of risk.

[user104658]

Coincidentally, there are actually some teenage girls catcalling me through the window at work right now :facepalm: :joker:.

[DemolitionRed]

I recommended a book on here ages ago called 'The Gift of Fear' which is basically written with women in mind. The first chapter of that book is so compelling. Reading that was possibly the biggest wake up call I've ever had.

[Vicky.]

Its not just men who perv. But its mainly men. Who perv on both women and other men.

Also I personally would fine a male perv scarier. Because I stand a chance of fighting a female one off. Where I stand little to no chance against a male. Also I have never ever been sexually assaulted by a female. I have been assaulted many many times by men in my lifetime. Maybe female pervs focus their attention on men, but for me...a female perv seems to be as rare as fairy dust.

[Vicky.]

Coincidentally, there are actually some teenage girls catcalling me through the window at work right now :facepalm: :joker:.

:laugh: Oh dear.

My husband gets 'hello sexy' and stuff a lot from women. He just laughs it off though. He says in clubs and stuff he is groped a lot. But it doesn't 'scare' him as such, its more an annoyance. And apparently its usually men doing the groping, not women. Which makes sense as we usually go to gay bars, so the women there will not be interested in a bepenised individual really

[user104658]

Its not just men who perv. But its mainly men. Who perv on both women and other men.

Also I personally would fine a male perv scarier. Because I stand a chance of fighting a female one off. Where I stand little to no chance against a male. Also I have never ever been sexually assaulted by a female. I have been assaulted many many times by men in my lifetime. Maybe female pervs focus their attention on men, but for me...a female perv seems to be as rare as fairy dust.

I genuinely think the actual "perv impulse" if you will is pretty much 50/50, but I would agree that it's mainly men who "openly and confidently" perv, and yes, it's obviously more intimidating. Female perving is generally considered (and potentially is?) "less serious" and is more likely to be "private", like comments made within their group of friends / laughing / maybe shouting over once or twice with ensuing hilarity. Or the butt / balls grope at a busy bar - very VERY common to the extent that I would say, back when I did go out a lot, it was unusual if it DIDN'T happen at least 2 or 3 times a night if it was somewhere busy. That tends to be literally a grab whilst acting like they didn't do anything... That seems to be the game :shrug:.

Also the men who are a target of it tend to mind less (BUT I would say it's important to remember that it does make some very anxious and uncomfortable), and I guess that is down to the intimidation factor too.

E.g. Like I said, literally 10 mins ago there was a group of girls outside catcalling in the window at me... Just gave them a smile and a wave and off they go giggling. Have to keep the fans happy, I guess. BUT if it was one of the female staff here, alone, at night, and there were a dozen teenage boys leering in the window... It becomes quite a different situation.

[Northern Monkey]

I genuinely think the actual "perv impulse" if you will is pretty much 50/50, but I would agree that it's mainly men who "openly and confidently" perv, and yes, it's obviously more intimidating. Female perving is generally considered (and potentially is?) "less serious" and is more likely to be "private", like comments made within their group of friends / laughing / maybe shouting over once or twice with ensuing hilarity. Or the butt / balls grope at a busy bar - very VERY common to the extent that I would say, back when I did go out a lot, it was unusual if it DIDN'T happen at least 2 or 3 times a night if it was somewhere busy. That tends to be literally a grab whilst acting like they didn't do anything... That seems to be the game :shrug:.

Also the men who are a target of it tend to mind less (BUT I would say it's important to remember that it does make some very anxious and uncomfortable), and I guess that is down to the intimidation factor too.

E.g. Like I said, literally 10 mins ago there was a group of girls outside catcalling in the window at me... Just gave them a smile and a wave and off they go giggling. Have to keep the fans happy, I guess. BUT if it was one of the female staff here, alone, at night, and there were a dozen teenage boys leering in the window... It becomes quite a different situation.
Yep,Almost all of my mates and me have been groped by women many many times.
I used to go out at 16-17 and women in their late 20’s would do it.

[user104658]

Yep,Almost all of my mates and me have been groped by women many many times.
I used to go out at 16-17 and women in their late 20’s would do it.We started hitting the local pub at 16 and I swear the worst for it were women in their late 40s / early 50s! We thought it was all a good laugh but it's actually so dodgy. Plus one of my friends started a 6 month fling with a 48 year old when he was 17 :facepalm:. And picked it up again in his early 20s when she was like 53 :umm2:...

[Kizzy]

I genuinely think the actual "perv impulse" if you will is pretty much 50/50, but I would agree that it's mainly men who "openly and confidently" perv, and yes, it's obviously more intimidating. Female perving is generally considered (and potentially is?) "less serious" and is more likely to be "private", like comments made within their group of friends / laughing / maybe shouting over once or twice with ensuing hilarity. Or the butt / balls grope at a busy bar - very VERY common to the extent that I would say, back when I did go out a lot, it was unusual if it DIDN'T happen at least 2 or 3 times a night if it was somewhere busy. That tends to be literally a grab whilst acting like they didn't do anything... That seems to be the game :shrug:.

Also the men who are a target of it tend to mind less (BUT I would say it's important to remember that it does make some very anxious and uncomfortable), and I guess that is down to the intimidation factor too.

E.g. Like I said, literally 10 mins ago there was a group of girls outside catcalling in the window at me... Just gave them a smile and a wave and off they go giggling. Have to keep the fans happy, I guess. BUT if it was one of the female staff here, alone, at night, and there were a dozen teenage boys leering in the window... It becomes quite a different situation.

What a load of rubbish... I work in a predominantly male environment and honestly when a woman walks in it's like they've never seen a woman or have wives, it's very odd. I have never experienced something like that before.

[Northern Monkey]

What a load of rubbish... I work in a predominantly male environment and honestly when a woman walks in it's like they've never seen a woman or have wives, it's very odd. I have never experienced something like that before.

And how many of these blokes actually go and cop a feel?

I’d bet none.

That’s what seperates them from actual pervs.

Looking at and chatting about a nice looking woman is a whole different ball game from going and grabbing one.

(And PS women do this too.Heard it many times)

[Northern Monkey]

We started hitting the local pub at 16 and I swear the worst for it were women in their late 40s / early 50s! We thought it was all a good laugh but it's actually so dodgy. Plus one of my friends started a 6 month fling with a 48 year old when he was 17 :facepalm:. And picked it up again in his early 20s when she was like 53 :umm2:...

I can well believe it.I didn’t used to go much to the clubs with the over forties women.I did cop off with a 35 y/o though when i was around 17.She would flirt regularly with me and one night she pounced.I didn’t really fight her off if i’m honest.

[user104658]

What a load of rubbish... I work in a predominantly male environment and honestly when a woman walks in it's like they've never seen a woman or have wives, it's very odd. I have never experienced something like that before.When young men walk into predominantly female workplaces EXACTLY the same thing happens, just like I said, not as openly - they talk about and objectify the sexy mailman / gardener / whatever amongst themselves. It's not really any different in terms of motivation.

Also... Plenty of school-run mums perv. :shrug:. Women are just more subtle. I reckon you're just not looking for it so you don't see it.

[user104658]

I can well believe it.I didn’t used to go much to the clubs with the over forties women.I did cop off with a 35 y/o though when i was around 17.She would flirt regularly with me and one night she pounced.I didn’t really fight her off if i’m honest.35 is still youngish though, this woman was 2 years older than his mum, and had a son the same age as us! All kinds of wrong. I thought he was joking when he told me he had hooked up with her at first... But no.

[Northern Monkey]

35 is still youngish though, this woman was 2 years older than his mum, and had a son the same age as us! All kinds of wrong. I thought he was joking when he told me he had hooked up with her at first... But no.

Yeah wouldn’t fancy blowing the cobwebs off that at 17.

If it was reversed and a bloke was that age it’d somehow be seen as worse too.

[Brillopad]

We started hitting the local pub at 16 and I swear the worst for it were women in their late 40s / early 50s! We thought it was all a good laugh but it's actually so dodgy. Plus one of my friends started a 6 month fling with a 48 year old when he was 17 :facepalm:. And picked it up again in his early 20s when she was like 53 :umm2:...

Plenty of men that age, especially those with money, with women 30+ years younger; sometimes having kids. That is equally as dodgy and stomach churning.

[user104658]

True though as Nm says, it's usually seen as worse somehow (the man considered a predator, perhaps fairly). In that case though I would say the older woman was a bit of a predator, and did take advantage of him, though to this day I doubt he would admit that.

[Kizzy]

Look how the conversation has turned, woman mentions harassment man suggests it works both ways and then crows about exploits with milf... you couldn't make it up :/

[DemolitionRed]

There's a bloke who's got a yacht on our marina who's in his 70's and looks like a fat old Santa. His wife is probably late 20s, very petite, well groomed and a real head turner. They have a three year old daughter. He's a millionaire and they have a house (I'm told its a mansion) out near Guildford.

Sounds sickening doesn't it? I used to think so until one night, after a few beers, he told me that he's well aware she's using him for his money but that's okay because she's well aware he's using her for her youthful looks. "she makes me feel young and I make her feel special and we are both very comfortable knowing the truths of why we are together".

Whilst It may not conform to what we deem to be a healthy relationship, its still an honest one.

[smudgie]

There's a bloke who's got a yacht on our marina who's in his 70's and looks like a fat old Santa. His wife is probably late 20s, very petite, well groomed and a real head turner. They have a three year old daughter. He's a millionaire and they have a house (I'm told its a mansion) out near Guildford.

Sounds sickening doesn't it? I used to think so until one night, after a few beers, he told me that he's well aware she's using him for his money but that's okay because she's well aware he's using her for her youthful looks. "she makes me feel young and I make her feel special and we are both very comfortable knowing the truths of why we are together".

Whilst It may not conform to what we deem to be a healthy relationship, its still an honest one.

Yes, it's the honesty that counts.
Sounds like they are both happy with the situation.

[user104658]

Look how the conversation has turned, woman mentions harassment man suggests it works both ways and then crows about exploits with milf... you couldn't make it up :/

Well you seem to have managed to?

[user104658]

But frankly Kizzy, if you don't want an open discussion, want it the way you want it, and want to crow mantras and buzzwords then perhaps consider starting a blog? Plenty of people put there happy to buy the **** you're peddling and you don't even have to enable comments :hee:.

[Kizzy]

But frankly Kizzy, if you don't want an open discussion, want it the way you want it, and want to crow mantras and buzzwords then perhaps consider starting a blog? Plenty of people put there happy to buy the **** you're peddling and you don't even have to enable comments :hee:.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcw13teiCE1rqesry.gif

[Northern Monkey]

Look how the conversation has turned, woman mentions harassment man suggests it works both ways and then crows about exploits with milf... you couldn't make it up :/

No,Just pointing out that this current narrative that seems to have come about of men being these over sexed predators and women are all sweet innocent victims is not the case.Men get preyed on by older women,‘catcalled’,assaulted and harrassed too.You just don’t hear about it as much or hardly ever.
That certainly doesn’t make it right for men to do it either and i can understand that women will feel more fear due to men generally being physically stronger but it’s not right for men OR women to do it.

[AnnieK]

No,Just pointing out that this current narrative that seems to have come about of men being these over sexed predators and women are all sweet innocent victims is not the case.Men get preyed on by older women,‘catcalled’,assaulted and harrassed too.You just don’t hear about it as much or hardly ever.
That certainly doesn’t make it right for men to do it either and i can understand that women will feel more fear due to men generally being physically stronger but it’s not right for men OR women to do it.

I agree...I'm all for sexual liberation and am very much in the "what makes you happy" camp as long as it it legal and moral for both sexes. As DR said people don't always know the dynamics od relationships and what works for people. Both men and women can be predatory and pervy..yes men are physically stronger in the most part but there are exceptions to every rule. Women are just as likely to to be bastards as men are....physically, sexually and emotionally. As a woman who wants equality I am well aware of the behaviours women can display that can be construed as as predatory as men.

[Kizzy]

No,Just pointing out that this current narrative that seems to have come about of men being these over sexed predators and women are all sweet innocent victims is not the case.Men get preyed on by older women,‘catcalled’,assaulted and harrassed too.You just don’t hear about it as much or hardly ever.
That certainly doesn’t make it right for men to do it either and i can understand that women will feel more fear due to men generally being physically stronger but it’s not right for men OR women to do it.

https://littleredtoasterbox.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/11259990_10205508323322320_1177974459_n.gif?w=640

[jaxie]

With regards to the older women scenario, I'm not going to argue that there aren't predatory women but there was a woman on the estate where I grew up who had kids older than me and who was known as the local bike. Except if you look a bit more closely you might say she was as much a victim as anyone. She liked a lot of sex and she was lonely. Men came in and out of her life and used her. There were beatings and broken relationships all over the drama of her life. I remember when I was around fifteen she dated a guy of eighteen for a while. It was pretty clear he was using her for easy sex while she became emotionally involved. Was she really the predator? I'm not convinced she was.

[DemolitionRed]

We went to a party last year and a woman, who was a good 15 years younger than me was enamored with my husband. He's one of these guys who isn't even aware when he's been chatted up and I'm the sort of woman who sits back and enjoys the entertainment. At the end of the evening she ignored me but went up and gave him a hug and a kiss and handed him something, it was her phone number!! Fortunately for me he's not up for an opportune shag and so he took the paper it was written on and handed it to me.

I think predatory women are more likely to be young and after a rich mans money or just a man who's solvent and stable. Stability is fine, we all want it but if that stability includes knowingly coming on to a married man, then that's predatory behavior.

[Vicky.]

The perv impulse may well be 50/50, for sake of argument. But I would argue that men act on it more. Which would mean that women have better impulse control, which won't go down well either :laugh:

I am not denying there are predatory women at all. But sexual assault appears to be committed more by men.

So yes, pervy women exist, women may perv 'in their heads' as much as men, but men openly perv and take action on their thoughts more often.

[Brillopad]

The perv impulse may well be 50/50, for sake of argument. But I would argue that men act on it more. Which would mean that women have better impulse control, which won't go down well either :laugh:

I am not denying there are predatory women at all. But sexual assault appears to be committed more by men.

So yes, pervy women exist, women may perv 'in their heads' as much as men, but men openly perv and take action on their thoughts more often.

No appears about it. Men are by far the worst offenders, always have been. It has often been an excuse offered up by some stating they have a higher sex drive, which is debateable, but as you say impulse control is the key.

I also feel that centuries worth of social conditioning has given some men a sense of entitlement in that they think they can use and abuse women as they see fit. All complete garbage of course but many men across the world still think that because it suits and they have personality disorders.

[Kizzy]

We weren't discussing 'pervs' (or people who just look at other people) we were discussing predators.. there is a gulf of difference there.

[Vicky.]

We weren't discussing 'pervs' (or people who just look at other people) we were discussing predators.. there is a gulf of difference there.

Well yes this is a good point actually. Discussing people who actually do sexually assault and even rape. Of which, its mostly men. By a long shot.

Amazing how saying this brings on a raft of 'not all men are like that' (we know this..it would be fairly ****ing depressing if they were!) and 'women do it too' (yes, but not anywhere near as often) every time.

When I discuss this with my husband, he doesn't take it as a...personal insult (?) that there are a lot of men who are ****ing perverted entitled arseholes. He admits it and says its a disgrace, rather than trying to deflect. Its odd how men get so defensive over this topic. 'Women do it too' is true enough, but again, nowhere near as often as men do.

[Vicky.]

Maybe hes just less defensive because his daughter who has just turned 13 has for a few years had older men touching her and being inappropriate, so he knows exactly what its like for girls/women. Twice we have had the police here, and both times they minimized it. Said they would put in a report but basically theres nothing they could do. One time they were pretty much blaming her...as she was wearing a skirt. Her ****ing school skirt. Assholes. No point reporting it it seems. He was threatened with being arrested the time they were blaming her, as he got very very angry and yes, a little aggressive but this is understandable when your daughter has experienced sexual assault and the very people who are supposed to help try to blame her, I think anyway.

I do wonder what the real figures are on sexual assault, as I am sure there are many people who don't even bother reporting it given their past experiences of reporting it.

[Kizzy]

Well yes this is a good point actually. Discussing people who actually do sexually assault and even rape. Of which, its mostly men. By a long shot.

Amazing how saying this brings on a raft of 'not all men are like that' (we know this..it would be fairly ****ing depressing if they were!) and 'women do it too' (yes, but not anywhere near as often) every time.

When I discuss this with my husband, he doesn't take it as a...personal insult (?) that there are a lot of men who are ****ing perverted entitled arseholes. He admits it and says its a disgrace, rather than trying to deflect. Its odd how men get so defensive over this topic. 'Women do it too' is true enough, but again, nowhere near as often as men do.

Like in this thread?... OOPS! did I just say that out loud?! :hehe:

[user104658]

The perv impulse may well be 50/50, for sake of argument. But I would argue that men act on it more. Which would mean that women have better impulse control, which won't go down well either [emoji23]

If women had better impulse control then it would apply to other compulsive behaviours too, which it doesn't, so it can't be as simple as that. I would argue that it again comes back to the difference in physical strength; predatory men attack overpower, or attempt to overpower, because they feel like there's a good chance they CAN physically dominate their target. As has been discussed in this thread, it's highly unlikely that the average woman could overpower the average man and therefore it follows that there would be fewer attempts to do so.

Obviously it's impossible to say for sure because it's all hypothetical... But, I very highly suspect that if there was some sort of global mutation over night that doubled the physical strength of every female, and halved the physical strength of every male, then you would see a dramatic shift in the statistics going forward.

You also seem to have a bit of a conflict going on regarding what you believe about the male and female brain Vicky. On the one hand you insist that there is no such thing as transgenderism because there's no such thing as the "mystical, magical male or female brain" and yet you seem to believe on the other hand that there ARE fundamental differences between male and female psychology that mean men have poorer impulse control and are more likely to act on violent or predatory urges... Which strongly suggests that there IS such a thing as a male and female brain, and therefore that a male or female brain COULD be in the wrong physical body.

[Vicky.]

Like in this thread?... OOPS! did I just say that out loud?! :hehe:

Well yeah, anywhere you try to discuss it this happens. Noone ever denies that some women do it to, but nowhere near on the scale that men do. Its mostly men who assault women, and also mostly men who assault other men. there is no shame in admitting this. No need to deflect and try to change the conversation...it is not a slight on all men to admit that its mainly men (NAMALT discalimer) who are so entitled and vile tbh

[Vicky.]

If women had better impulse control then it would apply to other compulsive behaviours too, which it doesn't, so it can't be as simple as that. I would argue that it again comes back to the difference in physical strength; predatory men attack overpower, or attempt to overpower, because they feel like there's a good chance they CAN physically dominate their target. As has been discussed in this thread, it's highly unlikely that the average woman could overpower the average man and therefore it follows that there would be fewer attempts to do so.

Obviously it's impossible to say for sure because it's all hypothetical... But, I very highly suspect that if there was some sort of global mutation over night that doubled the physical strength of every female, and halved the physical strength of every male, then you would see a dramatic shift in the statistics going forward.

You also seem to have a bit of a conflict going on regarding what you believe about the male and female brain Vicky. On the one hand you insist that there is no such thing as transgenderism because there's no such thing as the "mystical, magical male or female brain" and yet you seem to believe on the other hand that there ARE fundamental differences between male and female psychology that mean men have poorer impulse control and are more likely to act on violent or predatory urges... Which strongly suggests that there IS such a thing as a male and female brain, and therefore that a male or female brain COULD be in the wrong physical body.
I don't believe in male and female brains(and science agrees with me). IF there is a biological reason why men attack more, then its likely to be down to testosterone. Nothing to do with the brain as such, but hormones.

There was a study of transgender people who were transitioning, and the transmen who had started testosterone got more violent overall (but nowhere near as violent as biological men...just more violent than females). Which says to me testosterone must have some part in it. On the other hand, the transwomen who were lowering their testosterone levels, maintained male pattern violence. Which says that socialization is more important in it all..so hormones play a part, but its mainly socialisation. is my conclusion :laugh:

Also I only said women were better at impulse control for sake of argument. As I don't actually believe that its 50/50 at all. It was you that said that. I actually said it was 'for sake of argument' too.

[user104658]

Like in this thread?... OOPS! did I just say that out loud?! :hehe:It has nothing to do with defensiveness and everything to do with trying to have an open discussion free from snideness and personal prejudice... Because some people actually want to use this forum for debate and discussion, and not for blinkered campaigning and soapboxing. :shrug: