What would it take for Labour moderates to revolt

[Brillopad]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/09/what-would-it-take-for-labour-moderates-to-revolt

Another very interesting article making some very effective points. People need to think very carefully before being so quick to vote in much worse than we already have.

[Withano]

Another very interesting article

Its a trap

[arista]

"Once again, the image of wolves and lambs flashed up. Surely they will revolt?"

No Nick Cohen
the Next General Election is YEARS away
5-May -2022


So at this time
Labour is with Brexit as it stands today
Ref : Marr BBC1HD
with Ian Dale and the Brexit Lady agreeing

[DemolitionRed]

Written by none other than the neoliberal Nick Cohen. Nick Cohen, the author of ‘Whats Left’ a book that demonizes liberal thinkers and man who has been arguing against Left wing rising opponents since the fall of Blair. Those on the Left don’t pay a lot of attention to a man who’s pro war and calls those who aren’t shameless or stupid.

[Vicky.]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/09/what-would-it-take-for-labour-moderates-to-revolt

Another very interesting article making some very effective points. People need to think very carefully before being so quick to vote in much worse than we already have.

My issue here is the Tories are evil. I genuinely do think they have no hearts at all, mainly for their treatment of the disabled tbh. May is more of a shambles than Corbyn right now also. So I feel I HAVE to vote Labour just to get rid of the Tories. Given only those two parties ever stand a chance of election. Labour seem the best of a bad bunch, to put it midly. So much about the current state of Labour (plus Momentum) I cannot stand, but they are STILL better than the Tories IMO. It saddens me that the only realistic options we have are both awful.

[Brillopad]

Written by none other than the neoliberal Nick Cohen. Nick Cohen, the author of ‘Whats Left’ a book that demonizes liberal thinkers and man who has been arguing against Left wing rising opponents since the fall of Blair. Those on the Left don’t pay a lot of attention to a man who’s pro war and calls those who aren’t shameless or stupid.

You call everyone who doesn’t buy into your left-wing views a neoliberal - it’s your favourite word- maybe you are one of those he is referring to.

What I do know is his words make sense and, like many, I would not want the hard-left ruling this country - it would be a catastrophe and not just for Tory voters.

It would be a classic example of the many new Young first-time voting lefties having to learn their lesson the hard way, but unfortunately many others would suffer too. If you think a hard left government will solve this country’s problems rather than add to them you are, in my opinion, either idealistic to the point of gross naivity, and I have to admit you don’t come across as naive, or hard left yourself.

[arista]

My issue here is the Tories are evil. I genuinely do think they have no hearts at all, mainly for their treatment of the disabled tbh. May is more of a shambles than Corbyn right now also. So I feel I HAVE to vote Labour just to get rid of the Tories. Given only those two parties ever stand a chance of election. Labour seem the best of a bad bunch, to put it midly. So much about the current state of Labour (plus Momentum) I cannot stand, but they are STILL better than the Tories IMO. It saddens me that the only realistic options we have are both awful.


Yes many may vote that
but by 5 may 2022 (long way off)
The official General Election Date
Its expected that
The current PM will be changed.

Of Course the Date of 2022
could Change
if the DUP brought down the Government
but they are scared of doing that.

[Brillopad]

My issue here is the Tories are evil. I genuinely do think they have no hearts at all, mainly for their treatment of the disabled tbh. May is more of a shambles than Corbyn right now also. So I feel I HAVE to vote Labour just to get rid of the Tories. Given only those two parties ever stand a chance of election. Labour seem the best of a bad bunch, to put it midly. So much about the current state of Labour (plus Momentum) I cannot stand, but they are STILL better than the Tories IMO. It saddens me that the only realistic options we have are both awful.

That’s a fair post Vicky. You do what you have to do because, as you say, there is a very poor choice. We are all in a very difficult situation, unless we blindly support one or other of the main parties, and have to go with our gut.

[Vicky.]

The current PM will be changed.


I doubt the new leader would be any better. its basically the Tories entire lifestory to blame the world ills on the poor and punish them for it. Unless the leader is not actually Tory (which would lose a bunch of Tory voters) then the Tories are not going to get any better in that respect. Yes the leader will probably be much stronger, but the ideology is still there. If they started to give a crap about the poor/ill then I may consider voting for them. But as it stands, I would never. Would rather vote for lord Buckethead.

[arista]

I doubt the new leader would be any better. its basically the Tories entire lifestory to blame the world ills on the poor and punish them for it. Unless the leader is not actually Tory (which would lose a bunch of Tory voters) then the Tories are not going to get any better in that respect. Yes the leader will probably be much stronger, but the ideology is still there. If they started to give a crap about the poor/ill then I may consider voting for them. But as it stands, I would never. Would rather vote for lord Buckethead.


Trouble is it takes time
to get the numbers UP
but it could be a younger MP


Long way off.

[Kizzy]

You call everyone who doesn’t buy into your left-wing views a neoliberal - it’s your favourite word- maybe you are one of those he is referring to.

What I do know is his words make sense and, like many, I would not want the hard-left ruling this country - it would be a catastrophe and not just for Tory voters.

It would be a classic example of the many new Young first-time voting lefties having to learn their lesson the hard way, but unfortunately many others would suffer too. If you think a hard left government will solve this country’s problems rather than add to them you are, in my opinion, either idealistic to the point of gross naivity, and I have to admit you don’t come across as naive, or hard left yourself.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/24/only-liberalism-can-thwart-demagogues

[Northern Monkey]

My issue here is the Tories are evil. I genuinely do think they have no hearts at all, mainly for their treatment of the disabled tbh. May is more of a shambles than Corbyn right now also. So I feel I HAVE to vote Labour just to get rid of the Tories. Given only those two parties ever stand a chance of election. Labour seem the best of a bad bunch, to put it midly. So much about the current state of Labour (plus Momentum) I cannot stand, but they are STILL better than the Tories IMO. It saddens me that the only realistic options we have are both awful.

This was exactly my reasoning for voting Labour in the GE and I can’t fecking stand the hard left.
A more center ground Labour party is what we need.Corbyn,McDonell and Momentum need to feck off.

[bots]

Whether people like it or not, being warm, caring and fluffy doesn't run a country or its economy. The conservatives are a much safer set of hands when it comes to that, and when thats done correctly, everyones lives improve. A corbyn led government would be an unmitigated disaster,

[Kizzy]

This was exactly my reasoning for voting Labour in the GE and I can’t fecking stand the hard left.
A more center ground Labour party is what we need.Corbyn,McDonell and Momentum need to feck off.

In all fairness they had their moment, why didn't they succeed? Were they not vocal enough for the greater good in the way that corbyn is...

Personally my issue with the moderates in the Labour party are they to me appear to be the ones appeasing business for a slice of whichever sector pie is on offer and bugger society.
Corbyn is attractive to be for effectively saying sod your pie, I don't want it... I'm going to fit on the floor of this train and eat a nice apple with the public!


That's why he gets my vote.

[Brillopad]

In all fairness they had their moment, why didn't they succeed? Were they not vocal enough for the greater good in the way that corbyn is...

Personally my issue with the moderates in the Labour party are they to me appear to be the ones appeasing business for a slice of whichever sector pie is on offer and bugger society.
Corbyn is attractive to be for effectively saying sod your pie, I don't want it... I'm going to fit on the floor of this train and eat a nice apple with the public!


That's why he gets my vote.

And you don’t think that is exactly what he wants you to think, which of course maybe why he does it. He is playing the ‘caring’ card.

Even if you are right about him and he is more genuine than I give him credit for, which I have severe reservations about, he is surrounding himself with some very dubious characters who will likely be making a lot of the important decisions which for many is a very scary prospect.

[Kizzy]

Whether people like it or not, being warm, caring and fluffy doesn't run a country or its economy. The conservatives are a much safer set of hands when it comes to that, and when thats done correctly, everyones lives improve. A corbyn led government would be an unmitigated disaster,

Unfortunately the country is run by a workforce and unless they are warm and safe productivity suffers and so will the economy...

We are not drones, ok we have to work and work hard but is it too much to ask to have a half decent standard of life while working? Is a neoliberal hand to mouth existence unprotected from exorbitant utilities, rent, travel and fuel costs about the best we could wish for ourselves?

Maybe for you and yours but not me and mine!

What's fluffy about regulations? renationalisation? other countries run our networks so they're very profitable, the fluffy tory don't bring just buy sales that claimed then then cream profits via companies they have interests in who mop up shares after these massacres as they hack away at our infrastructure... and you think they make us safer?.... wake up ffs!

[Northern Monkey]

In all fairness they had their moment, why didn't they succeed? Were they not vocal enough for the greater good in the way that corbyn is...

Personally my issue with the moderates in the Labour party are they to me appear to be the ones appeasing business for a slice of whichever sector pie is on offer and bugger society.
Corbyn is attractive to be for effectively saying sod your pie, I don't want it... I'm going to fit on the floor of this train and eat a nice apple with the public!


That's why he gets my vote.

The problem is that the pie is what attracts business to the country.No pie,No point.
Socialism is a nice dream where everyone gets a slice of the pie no matter how hard they work for it but unfortunately never works.
I think somewhere in the middle is the best option.
The tricky part seems to be finding the right balance so we all get enough pie that we don’t starve but those who earn more pie get their fair share and for that we need to make more pies.Socialist countries usually end up with hardly any pie left as the chefs aren’t motivated enough to bother making them.

[Kizzy]

And you don’t think that is exactly what he wants you to think, which of course maybe why he does it. He is playing the ‘caring’ card.

Even if you are right about him and he is more genuine than I give him credit for, which I have severe reservations about, he is surrounding himself with some very dubious characters who will likely be making a lot of the important decisions which for many is a very scary prospect.

Were you not one concerned with CETA pre brexit? david davis today stated that Canada +++ is our most viable option... so that's a certainty now.

Who else will be our trading partners? Will they have dubious human rights records, how will we make our money more babykilla bombs for SA?

So he may be playing a card, I'll take that risk because may isn't, she is very openly expressing her support for a 'meritocracy' which means that your chances of survival are limited by your own capability to in the 'laisez faire '
sense... you are as is the founding ideology of conservatism 'cut adrift'..

I would go further and suggest that recent policy has rendered many vulnerable groups almost entirely unsupported and the support they do have is from the third sector (volunteers) or in other words 'society'.

Why have they done this? I was reading recently about another organisation, I won't say which where a similar thing happened the rights and provision for these groups were removed and they were considered nothing but 'useless eaters' (clue).

This is where we are at now, it's scary just how deep in the rabbit hole we are and yet the establishment is not considered corrupt but our guiding light overlords steering Britain to safety away from the evil EU.... When in actuality they've smashed the UK to pieces poisoned minds against our European nations with whom we share cultural and democratic ties for what?.... the WTO?.. With the BRIC countries who think human rights are a Eurovision song contest entry?!


Pfffft!!!

[Kizzy]

The problem is that the pie is what attracts business to the country.No pie,No point.
Socialism is a nice dream where everyone gets a slice of the pie no matter how hard they work for it but unfortunately never works.
I think somewhere in the middle is the best option.
The tricky part seems to be finding the right balance so we all get enough pie that we don’t starve but those who earn more pie get their fair share and for that we need to make more pies.Socialist countries usually end up with hardly any pie left as the chefs aren’t motivated enough to bother making them.

I think you killed my pie analogy.... :/

Our infrastructure as in industry, transport, utilities and buildings

They are predominantly in the hands of foreign investors now, we don't own anything Britain was sold off... We do still have business and lots of fingers in lots of pies, we have services and innovation but these are fickle and can relocate... as we've seen the financial sector beginning to wander off due to brexit.

[Northern Monkey]

I think you killed my pie analogy.... :/

Our infrastructure as in industry, transport, utilities and buildings

They are predominantly in the hands of foreign investors now, we don't own anything Britain was sold off... We do still have business and lots of fingers in lots of pies, we have services and innovation but these are fickle and can relocate... as we've seen the financial sector beginning to wander off due to brexit.

That’s one thing i am kind of in favour of with Corbyn.Renationalisation.Although i’m dubious of McDonells claim that it’ll pay for itself.Specially if they drop fares which would be one of their incentives to renationalise.

[Tom4784]

Labour can never be worse than the Tories when it comes to the Working and Middle classes, no matter what state they are in.

Tories got the working class to vote for them by appealing to their prejudices. You can get away with anything with voters as long as you keep mentioning immigration and these last few Tory governments are proof of that. The Tories have mastered the art of getting the working and middle classes to vote against their own interests.

[Kizzy]

That’s one thing i am kind of in favour of with Corbyn.Renationalisation.Although i’m dubious of McDonells claim that it’ll pay for itself.Specially if they drop fares which would be one of their incentives to renationalise.

I guess he means the profit margin would be lower then but there would still be one... Have you seen the profits for private rail companies? ooooff!!!

[DemolitionRed]

Whether people like it or not, being warm, caring and fluffy doesn't run a country or its economy. The conservatives are a much safer set of hands when it comes to that, and when thats done correctly, everyones lives improve. A corbyn led government would be an unmitigated disaster,

Are we really being warm and fluffy when all we want is for the corruption to stop? The Cons and New Labour were two sides of the same coin. The corruption was rife with Blair and Brown.

Your right, Corbyn would be an unmitigated disaster for the Tory party and their New Labour followers.

[DemolitionRed]

I guess he means the profit margin would be lower then but there would still be one... Have you seen the profits for private rail companies? ooooff!!!

I was chatting to an accountant yesterday and he was telling me that the head university don in Bolton is earning £600,000 a year and that same job seven years ago was worth £60,000 a year.

[Kizzy]

Are we really being warm and fluffy when all we want is for the corruption to stop? The Cons and New Labour were two sides of the same coin. The corruption was rife with Blair and Brown.

Your right, Corbyn would be an unmitigated disaster for the Tory party and their New Labour followers.

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

Put very succinctly :)

[Oliver_W]

I was chatting to an accountant yesterday and he was telling me that the head university don in Bolton is earning £600,000 a year and that same job seven years ago was worth £60,000 a year.

Good for him, I wish my job would pay that much.

Incidentally, £60k doesn't sound like much for a head don at even a university like Bolton.

[Toy Soldier]

Whether people like it or not, being warm, caring and fluffy doesn't run a country or its economy. The conservatives are a much safer set of hands when it comes to that, and when thats done correctly, everyones lives improve.

I'm not being flippant here but... when? They've been in for 8 years now and lives are not improving. National debt has continued to soar - the crash caused it to balloon from 0.5 trillion under labour to 1 trillion, but since the Tories have been in it has increased another 50% to 1.5 trillion, projected to hit 2 trillion by 2020 (all under Tory rule). Meanwhile, The NHS is in a worse state than ever, pensions are in a worse state than ever, local councils are struggling more than ever so local services are being halted faster than ever, and town and village centers are getting dirtier and more run down by the month.

So, when? When do the Tories safe hands improve the economy? When do "everyone's lives start to improve"? If this was 2011 you could roll out the old "Labour left a mess" rhetoric and say "give them time"... but this far down the line? You can't claim that Tory rule will inevitably improve people's lives when there is still zero evidence of that happening, and abundant evidence of people's lives being made utterly miserable by Tory decisions.

[DemolitionRed]

Good for him, I wish my job would pay that much.

Incidentally, £60k doesn't sound like much for a head don at even a university like Bolton.

That's head of a department, not head of he university.

[Oliver_W]

That's head of a department, not head of he university.

£60k still isn't much for a university HoD tbh. I still say good on him though, and I hope people would say good for me if my salary increased tenfold on as many years!

[Kizzy]

£60k still isn't much for a university HoD tbh. I still say good on him though, and I hope people would say good for me if my salary increased tenfold on as many years!

No they wouldn't,they would say exploiting young people with aspirations had facilitated your grotesquely inflated salary.

if you were this person

[Toy Soldier]

£60k still isn't much for a university HoD tbh. I still say good on him though, and I hope people would say good for me if my salary increased tenfold on as many years!

I'd agree that £60k would be low if academic quality is to remain high; that's the main problem I guess. It can seem wrong to have very high paid people in these positions but, to put it simply, if the salary isn't attractive then the positions are going to be filled by people who are less intelligent, less insightful, less able, less creative, etc etc. as talented individuals will naturally move on to better prospects. That's not what you want in an academic environment. Students should be around people who are at the top of their game in order to be academically inspired.

That said; I also think £600k is a bit over-the-top... and would say that £250k is a much more moderate and realistic figure to strike that balance (especially when you consider that for someone advanced in academia, their salary probably isn't their only income source).