The Chase's Anne Hegerty branded 'transphobic'

[Vicky.]

Well lesbian sex offenders would be allowed in the bathroom? And gay sex offenders would be allowed in yours? Not much you can do to stop that?

what does someones sexuality have to do with it? Lesbians are still women. And as such, are welcome in womens spaces, obviously. not sure what point you are trying to prove here but its coming across slightly homophobic tbh :think:

[Withano]

what does someones sexuality have to do with it? Lesbians are still women. And as such, are welcome in womens spaces, obviously. not sure what point you are trying to prove here but its coming across slightly homophobic tbh :think:

I'm sure his point was Harvey Weinstein is a pervert and could have access to that bathroom? When theres not much you can do about sex offenders using bathrooms, even without that bizarre example. Heterosexual sex offenders probably wont have much interest in offending in that environment.

I was responding to an odd point with an odd point!

[Vicky.]

I'm sure his point was Harvey Weinstein is a pervert and could have access to that bathroom? When theres not much you can do about it even without that bizarre example. Heterosexual sex offenders probably wont have much interest in offending in that environment.

I was responding to an odd point with an odd point!

I don't really think the point you replied to was odd at all. There is plenty you could do about it. make womens spaces penis free. Job done.

Fairly sure this hypothetical example was not...he had a sex change, just he decided to 'identify' as a woman, as many sex offenders will actually do. Which is part of the problem tbh, anyone can sere how this will be abused.

Men offend at a much higher rate than women, that cannot be argued against. The average man could overpower the average woman easily. So, if a male sex offender decided he was a woman, would you be happy with him going in womens spaces? Even knowing what he is?

Its nothing to do with lesbians or sexuality. Its about basically, do you prioritize the safety of women, or the feelings of men. Its an either or kind of thing. Which is unfortunate. But its how it is.

[Brillopad]

Well lesbian sex offenders would be allowed in the bathroom? And gay sex offenders would be allowed in yours? Not much you can do to stop that?

If you think lesbian offenders number anywhere near male offenders you need a reality check. Not to mention women have a far better chance of fighting off other women than they do men.

I don’t think you have given the whole issue any real thought other than to blindly defend the ‘principle’ of men having it all.

[Jamie89]

“Fully transition” ?

What?do some just get the bolloxs cut off and call it a day?

Some can't have all the procedures done for a variety of reasons. I have a female to male friend who was given the procedure to have his breasts removed, but he isn't allowed 'bottom surgery' for medical reasons.

This is where it sort of complicates the issue. He's a man to look at, to meet him, to hear him speak, if he was seen entering a women's changing room he would probably be considered a pervert, I'd assume that many of the people who don't want men in female areas would not want him there because to look at him they would assume he's a man. However he has a vagina, and although not 'fully transitioned', he is a transsexual man. Under the rule of 'penises here and vaginas there', as simple as it might sound as a solution, it wouldn't leave someone like him with many other options other than to just stay at home, or be forced to show his vagina on entry to a women's private space should he need to use one.

[AnnieK]

A lot of the leisure centres I use near me have 3 changing rooms, male, female and unisex/family which is better people can choose and its easier for me now as my son is 7 (going on 17) and no longer wants to be in female changing rooms and I don't want him to go into the male changing room on his own (as much because he will dick about rather than getting changed). Adding a third choice would make it easier for anyone transitioning as they will not be classed as being in the "wrong" changing room and for people who want to be comfortable that they are in a single sex environment

[Withano]

If you think lesbian offenders number anywhere near male offenders you need a reality check. Not to mention women have a far better chance of fighting off other women than they do men.

I don’t think you have given the whole issue any real thought other than to blindly defend the ‘principle’ of men having it all.

Well thats not at all what I said.

[Withano]

I don't really think the point you replied to was odd at all. There is plenty you could do about it. make womens spaces penis free. Job done.

Fairly sure this hypothetical example was not...he had a sex change, just he decided to 'identify' as a woman, as many sex offenders will actually do. Which is part of the problem tbh, anyone can sere how this will be abused.

Men offend at a much higher rate than women, that cannot be argued against. The average man could overpower the average woman easily. So, if a male sex offender decided he was a woman, would you be happy with him going in womens spaces? Even knowing what he is?

Its nothing to do with lesbians or sexuality. Its about basically, do you prioritize the safety of women, or the feelings of men. Its an either or kind of thing. Which is unfortunate. But its how it is.

Oh right, i thought his point was what if Harvey was a transwoman, a sex offender, and lesbian which wouldnt be much different to woman, sex offender, and lesbian.
I can see why pretending to be trans is a separate issue.

[Vicky.]

Some can't have all the procedures done for a variety of reasons. I have a female to male friend who was given the procedure to have his breasts removed, but he isn't allowed 'bottom surgery' for medical reasons.

This is where it sort of complicates the issue. He's a man to look at, to meet him, to hear him speak, if he was seen entering a women's changing room he would probably be considered a pervert, I'd assume that many of the people who don't want men in female areas would not want him there because to look at him they would assume he's a man. However he has a vagina, and although not 'fully transitioned', he is a transsexual man. Under the rule of 'penises here and vaginas there', as simple as it might sound as a solution, it wouldn't leave someone like him with many other options other than to just stay at home, or be forced to show his vagina on entry to a women's private space should he need to use one.
I think its a bit different if people 'pass', as noone would even know.

I would personally feel much more comfortable changing infront of a transman, than a regular man, as a transman is female. But if they pass, they would fit in in the mens anyway. Transmen seem to pass more often than transwomen.

[Vicky.]

Oh right, i thought his point was what if Harvey was a transwoman, a sex offender, and lesbian which wouldnt be much different to woman, sex offender, and lesbian.
I can see why pretending to be trans is a separate issue.

Harvey could not be a lesbian, as a lesbian is a female. This whole 'male lesbian' thing really bloody annoys me :laugh:

[Withano]

Harvey could not be a lesbian, as a lesbian is a female. This whole 'male lesbian' thing really bloody annoys me :laugh:

What would you call Lauren Harries if she was sexually attracted to women? :suspect: prewarning: if you say heterosexual my head will explode in confusion

[Vicky.]

What would you call Lauren Harries if she was sexually attracted to women? :suspect: prewarning: if you say heterosexual my head will explode in confusion

Well she is technically. She is male. A male attracted to females is straight. Sexuality is about sex. Not 'gender'.

Lesbians are female people attracted to females.

Having said that, I don't have a problem with fully transitioned transsexual women calling themselves lesbian as such. Its all these 'lesbians' with 'lady dicks' that are my problem. Perverts, and fairly rapey also. Straight men, finding new ways to attack and pressure lesbians into shagging them. Dickheads.

[Withano]

She is male.


Well no. I guess thats why I couldnt understand your point before.

I'd argue that this counts as transphobia tbh.

[Vicky.]

Well no. I guess thats why I couldnt understand your point before.

I'd argue that this counts as transphobia tbh.

Acknowledging someones sex is transphobia?

Transsexual people acknowledge their sex. Generally.

[Jamie89]

I think its a bit different if people 'pass', as noone would even know.

I would personally feel much more comfortable changing infront of a transman, than a regular man, as a transman is female. But if they pass, they would fit in in the mens anyway. Transmen seem to pass more often than transwomen.

Oh yeah, well it's certainly easy(ish) for him as things currently are (I mean not really easy in every situation but compared to the how I put it across in my post I mean). If it's about how people 'pass' rather than their biology though, does that not contradict the argument that people with penises should be in one area and people with vaginas should be in the other?

[Vicky.]

Oh yeah, well it's certainly easy(ish) for him as things currently are (I mean not really easy in every situation but compared to the how I put it across in my post I mean). If it's about how people 'pass' rather than their biology though, does that not contradict the argument that people with penises should be in one area and people with vaginas should be in the other?

Well yeah it does in a way. I would be happy with partially transitioned transmen in the ladies. Would be very happy keeping things penises+non penis. But I reckon they would prefer not to be in the womens, and if they pass, who cares?

I also think its a bit different when its transmen wanting into the mens. Women, on the whole are not a danger to men. Stats tell us that men are a danger to women. So a woman going in the mens is technically putting herself in danger, but not the people around her..her choice. A guy wanting into the ladies is a big problem for most of the women (I mean a regular guy, not a transsexual btw) Not sure if this is making sense, it does in my head :laugh:

[Withano]

Acknowledging someones sex is transphobia?

Transsexual people acknowledge their sex. Generally.

Calling someone like Lauren Harries a man? Yes.. This is the sort of stuff that sparked the head****-debatey-argumenty-two-tier-system-with-mods-on-top thing yesterday.

I know youre not transphobic, youve explained your stance incredibly clearly to me before.. but that just is a transphobic comment, and several people have explicitly stated how they hate that sort of stuff on the site. You'd infract a racist or homophobic comment, but transphobic comments just slides through the net, probably cos you use them yourself, its gross really.

[Vicky.]

I genuinely do not think that acknowledging that a male person is male is transphobic. Lauren acknowledges her sex. She had operations to ease the dysphoria, but an actual sex change is not possible, and everyone knows this.

I don't 'see her' as a man. But I do acknowledge she is male.

I cannot think of a racist analogy here, but saying, a black person is black, is not racist. Saying a gay person is gay is not homophobic.

[Northern Monkey]

Calling someone like Lauren Harries a man? Yes.. This is the sort of stuff that sparked the head****-debatey-argumenty-two-tier-system-with-mods-on-top thing yesterday.

I know youre not transphobic, youve explained your stance incredibly clearly to me before.. but that just is a transphobic comment, and several people have explicitly stated how they hate that sort of stuff on the site. You'd infract a racist or homophobic comment, but transphobic comments just slides through the net, probably cos you use them yourself, its gross really.

She didn’t call Lauren Harries a man.She said male.Which is true.

[Brillopad]

Well yeah it does in a way. I would be happy with partially transitioned transmen in the ladies. Would be very happy keeping things penises+non penis. But I reckon they would prefer not to be in the womens, and if they pass, who cares?

I also think its a bit different when its transmen wanting into the mens. Women, on the whole are not a danger to men. Stats tell us that men are a danger to women. So a woman going in the mens is technically putting herself in danger, but not the people around her..her choice. A guy wanting into the ladies is a big problem for most of the women (I mean a regular guy, not a transsexual btw) Not sure if this is making sense, it does in my head :laugh:

Perfect sense. Basically any man would be given access to female bathrooms and changing rooms with a few simple words - and anyone who cannot see the potential risk to women and girls is either a liar or completely refusing to acknowledge it due to an agenda.

[Withano]

I genuinely do not think that acknowledging that a male person is male is transphobic. .

What sort of comments do you think people were thinking about when they mentioned yours (and other peoples) transphobia.

Its stuff like that above "acknowledging a male person is a male". Clearly she is not a male, does not want to be seen as one, and does not want to live as one. Calling her one is transphobic. Its refusing to accept her as a her, and it is ignorant.

[Vicky.]

What sort of comments do you think people were thinking about when they mentioned yours (and other peoples) transphobia.

Its stuff like that above "acknowledging a male person is a male". Clearly she is not a male, does not want to be seen as one, and does not want to live as one. Calling her one is transphobic. Its refusing to accept her as a her, and it is ignorant.
She is male. Male is her sex.

I use 'her' and 'she' for lauren. But I do not see her as a woman. I see her as a transwoman. As thats what she is.

[Brillopad]

Calling someone like Lauren Harries a man? Yes.. This is the sort of stuff that sparked the head****-debatey-argumenty-two-tier-system-with-mods-on-top thing yesterday.

I know youre not transphobic, youve explained your stance incredibly clearly to me before.. but that just is a transphobic comment, and several people have explicitly stated how they hate that sort of stuff on the site. You'd infract a racist or homophobic comment, but transphobic comments just slides through the net, probably cos you use them yourself, its gross really.

Stop jumping on bandwagons. Many have expressed the opposite view so your comments are just stirring yet again.

[Jamie89]

Well yeah it does in a way. I would be happy with partially transitioned transmen in the ladies. Would be very happy keeping things penises+non penis. But I reckon they would prefer not to be in the womens, and if they pass, who cares?

I also think its a bit different when its transmen wanting into the mens. Women, on the whole are not a danger to men. Stats tell us that men are a danger to women. So a woman going in the mens is technically putting herself in danger, but not the people around her..her choice. A guy wanting into the ladies is a big problem for most of the women (I mean a regular guy, not a transsexual btw) Not sure if this is making sense, it does in my head :laugh:

No it does make sense, and that first part, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to use the female areas (we don't actually talk a lot about these issues believe it or not :laugh: but he does use the male facilities where he can - depending on the place, not everywhere has suitable facilities for people like him who pass as male but doesn't have a penis) I would imagine that having to use female facilities would exacerbate his dysphoria. But yeah I get what you mean with all of that from previous conversations, I suppose I'm just trying to highlight a nuance as I saw it as I don't think it's all that straight forward as was being suggested.

[Vicky.]

No it does make sense, and that first part, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want to use the female areas (we don't actually talk a lot about these issues believe it or not :laugh: but he does use the male facilities where he can - depending on the place, not everywhere has suitable facilities for people like him who pass as male but doesn't have a penis) I would imagine that having to use female facilities would exacerbate his dysphoria. But yeah I get what you mean with all of that from previous conversations, I suppose I'm just trying to highlight a nuance as I saw it as I don't think it's all that straight forward as was being suggested.

Yeah its a complicated topic.

I think transmen have it easier too, as they do tend to pass better. On average they look smaller than men, but the testosterone seems to work very well and very fast.

[Withano]

She is male. Male is her sex.

I use 'her' and 'she' for lauren. But I do not see her as a woman. I see her as a transwoman. As thats what she is.

Her birth sex was male. And then she had a sex change. Her sex is now, and her gender always was female. Unless your specifically discussing her birthsex, which would be evident under the term 'transowman' alone, theres no reason to call her a male or a man, unless youre being transphobic.

Perhaps its just a bad habit as yours, but many see this as transphobia, and for the sake of consistency in the rules, and avoiding more of those angry threads from yesterday, i think you should be more tactful tbh.

[Vicky.]

Her sex is still male. A sex change is not possible. I only brought up her sex as we were talking about the many heterosexual males who claim they (and their penises) are lesbian.

[jaxie]

Are Lesbians the whipping post of LGBT or something? People keep bringing them up in a negative way and suggesting them as sex offenders. The fact is there aren't huge numbers of Lesbian sex offenders anyway. But a Lesbian is a woman and not a man and it fully entitled to be in a woman's space.

[michael21]

Are Lesbians the whipping post of LGBT or something? People keep bringing them up in a negative way and suggesting them as sex offenders. The fact is there aren't huge numbers of Lesbian sex offenders anyway. But a Lesbian is a woman and not a man and it fully entitled to be in a woman's space.

That remind me I much catch up on orange is the new black :hehe:

[Maru]

Her birth sex was male. And then she had a sex change. Her sex is now, and her gender always was female. Unless your specifically discussing her birthsex, which would be evident under the term 'transowman' alone, theres no reason to call her a male or a man, unless youre being transphobic.

Perhaps its just a bad habit as yours, but many see this as transphobia, and for the sake of consistency in the rules, and avoiding more of those angry threads from yesterday, i think you should be more tactful tbh.

Why the need to control so much how others writes and speak? It's their words, in their personal manner of speech. Anyone can speak however they'd like... if you mean, that that people should shift their words away from what may cause offense. Well, that's pretty much how life works isn't it... we live and breath and sometimes that may cause offense to others. We have to all make compromises with each other on a daily basis to coexist. This is how we get on in a multicultural society...

I think, tolerance is a two way street. Vicky's been giving folk her time and ample respect to answer these questions, some of them quite personal and offensive at various points, and to continue to have patient dialogue... that's quite a bit of patience if I may say... I think the best way to encourage non-superficial tolerance actually is to show it back when it is given to you.

Forcing people to agree with us or speak the way we'd like is not a way to go on carrying about our existence. If we carry on this way, then our intents would lose their original meaning, because then what is honesty if we can't even use the words the way we feel suits our feelings the best...

I don't know what to say about the moderation, because I don't really see deletions being handled (I'm in a different time zone), so maybe there are things there to be improved... but I think bringing in Vicky's personal writings, not just how she carries on about her moderating... that's too far. She is a human being and I think entitled to not only her beliefs, but her own method of speech.

[Marsh.]

And I won’t be told by you that this group’s feelings and wishes should get priority over those of non-trans women. Neither will I be accepting the description as a cis woman. Nonsense.

I haven't told anyone that they should get priority.

Read and comprehend what's been written before jumping to conclusions.

[Brillopad]

I haven't told anyone that they should get priority.

Read and comprehend what's been written before jumping to conclusions.

The negative effects and risks of self-identified male transgenders having access to female areas have been pointed out many times and quite frankly are obvious. You still fully support it though which demonstrates your lack of concern on the risks to women and clearly shows where your priorities lie. I have jumped to no conclusions as your views are clear and your lack of understanding or thought for the female perspective is crystal clear.

All the sexual predators, perverts and misogynists out there must have a big smile on their faces at the lack of concern demonstrated for women’s rights and women’s safety by many men. As has been pointed out on many occasions transgenders’ ‘rights’ do not and should not trample over womens’ rights to privacy and safety.

Safety should be the main concern here for everyone but too many are too busy shouting about the ‘rights’ of a minority group, mostly men, and point-scoring to give a crap.

[Withano]

Why the need to control so much how others writes and speak? It's their words, in their personal manner of speech. Anyone can speak however they'd like... if you mean, that that people should shift their words away from what may cause offense. Well, that's pretty much how life works isn't it... we live and breath and sometimes that may cause offense to others. We have to all make compromises with each other on a daily basis to coexist. This is how we get on in a multicultural society...

I think, tolerance is a two way street. Vicky's been giving folk her time and ample respect to answer these questions, some of them quite personal and offensive at various points, and to continue to have patient dialogue... that's quite a bit of patience if I may say... I think the best way to encourage non-superficial tolerance actually is to show it back when it is given to you.

Forcing people to agree with us or speak the way we'd like is not a way to go on carrying about our existence. If we carry on this way, then our intents would lose their original meaning, because then what is honesty if we can't even use the words the way we feel suits our feelings the best...

I don't know what to say about the moderation, because I don't really see deletions being handled (I'm in a different time zone), so maybe there are things there to be improved... but I think bringing in Vicky's personal writings, not just how she carries on about her moderating... that's too far. She is a human being and I think entitled to not only her beliefs, but her own method of speech.

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.

[Cherie]

Why the need to control so much how others writes and speak? It's their words, in their personal manner of speech. Anyone can speak however they'd like... if you mean, that that people should shift their words away from what may cause offense. Well, that's pretty much how life works isn't it... we live and breath and sometimes that may cause offense to others. We have to all make compromises with each other on a daily basis to coexist. This is how we get on in a multicultural society...

I think, tolerance is a two way street. Vicky's been giving folk her time and ample respect to answer these questions, some of them quite personal and offensive at various points, and to continue to have patient dialogue... that's quite a bit of patience if I may say... I think the best way to encourage non-superficial tolerance actually is to show it back when it is given to you.

Forcing people to agree with us or speak the way we'd like is not a way to go on carrying about our existence. If we carry on this way, then our intents would lose their original meaning, because then what is honesty if we can't even use the words the way we feel suits our feelings the best...

I don't know what to say about the moderation, because I don't really see deletions being handled (I'm in a different time zone), so maybe there are things there to be improved... but I think bringing in Vicky's personal writings, not just how she carries on about her moderating... that's too far. She is a human being and I think entitled to not only her beliefs, but her own method of speech.

Great post Maru

[user104658]

Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves.

Youre playing with fire there Withano :joker:.

[Cherie]

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.



It's not coming across that way to me

[Ammi]

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.

..but then if it’s being understood incorrectly, Withano...surely that would be the need for tolerance on the forum../...in discussions...because if these discussions couldn’t happen in the same way...’correct’ understandings would not be achieved...?...it is quite a complex topic...whereas f words and n words are not complex at all in their intolerance by staff...and it’s a fairly ‘new’ topic in terms of progression of understandings etc...’stifling’ will only surely...well stifle and hinder....

[Brillopad]

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.

What about male posters on here who call women love, darling, sweetheart etc in a mocking way, which is blatant sexism, and don't get infracted. You don't seem to have a problem with that. When it suits hey!

[Ammi]

...I just don’t feel that TiBB is ‘tolerating transphobia’...but tolerating discussions which help ‘correct understanding’...from all perspectives of a complex topic in our own individual understandings....

[Brillopad]

..but then if it’s being understood incorrectly, Withano...surely that would be the need for tolerance on the forum../...in discussions...because if these discussions couldn’t happen in the same way...’correct’ understandings would not be achieved...?...it is quite a complex topic...whereas f words and n words are not complex at all in their intolerance by staff...and it’s a fairly ‘new’ topic in terms of progression of understandings etc...’stifling’ will only surely...well stifle and hinder....

I would call it controlling behaviour myself - it is trying to not only control what people can say, when the words they use are not abusive, but apparently not PC enough for them, but about trying to control peoples' thoughts.

Personally, the more controlling some people try to be the more I rebel. By behaving that way they just create an adverse effect and even more negative thoughts on the subject. PC point scoring, nothing else in my book, that has the opposite effect to what they claim they are trying to achieve. Withano and others like him will never control my thoughts or words and I have no doubt many others feel the same.

[Jamie89]

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

[Ammi]

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

...yeah..’self identification’ and legislations relating to ...are also relatively new as well, Jamie...in the discussions of...I imagine there has been many, many ‘dodgy’ debating over time which has led to understanding and progression....which is why tolerance is very much needed, obviously to a different level of some other things ...TiBB staff did that is what we’ll be saying in the future....

[Brillopad]

I think the problem with talking about transphobic language/word usage is that this conversation and the whole trans issues thing is still in such an early stage, we haven't really reached a point where there is a general consensus in society on all these things, on the same level that we have with issues such as racism/sexism/homophobia. And it's because we haven't yet and because of this being something where such big changes are likely to take place in the coming years that I think right now the most important thing is just that everyone is involved in it and all viewpoints are heard. All the other stuff comes later I think including deciding what is now acceptable and not acceptable to say. I do feel really uncomfortable when I see certain things being said and I think some of them shouldn't be acceptable, however I think at this stage in where we're at with it all it's more important that the actual issues are discussed and I'd worry about people not being involved because of worrying about saying the wrong thing. Vicky for example is hugely knowledgeable on all this stuff and although I disagree with most of her viewpoints I've also learnt a lot from her. And I don't like seeing a transwoman being described as a man but if that's how someone views them then we need to understand that and the reasons why and other than the person stating it as 'I think she is a man' I don't really know else that person would be involved in the discussion? This all goes for both sides though and the contention around the word cis is a good example of that.

I will say one thing Jamie - your expression of your thoughts and diplomatic skills together with your friendly nature are a positive force for any issue like this on which people have different view points. You are much more likely to get reasoned responses and achieve a positive outcome than many others.

[Jamie89]

...yeah..’self identification’ and legislations relating to ...are also relatively new as well, Jamie...in the discussions of...I imagine there has been many, many ‘dodgy’ debating over time which has led to understanding and progression....which is why tolerance is very much needed, obviously to a different level of some other things ...TiBB staff did that is what we’ll be saying in the future....It was actually tibb that brought my attention to all the self ID issues, and I have a friend in real life who's trans [emoji23]


I will say one thing Jamie - your expression of your thoughts and diplomatic skills together with your friendly nature are a positive force for any issue like this on which people have different view points. You are much more likely to get reasoned responses and achieve a positive outcome than many others.

Thanks Brillo that's very kind of you to say :love:

Just an extra thought actually on what I said, I do wonder what it must be like sometimes if we have trans members on here, or if trans people are just viewing the forum. I know that can't really dictate the conversation but in terms of tact I wonder if people would come at it differently if friends of theirs on the forum were trans. But yeah just a thought really.

[Cherie]

Just listening to an interesting debate on this on 5 Live now

[bots]

My feeling is that this whole topic has become a minefield, with people fearful of expressing their opinions in case they get called trans-phobic. The thing is, it's a debate, no-one is being persecuted, people should be free to choose the words that they think expresses their feelings best and makes their viewpoint clear. I mean it's almost as if expressing oneself is becoming a mortal sin. No laws have been broken, no-one is preaching hate. People should not be guilted into suppressing their opinions when they have done nothing legally or morally wrong.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The reality is a few folk on twitter called her it and frankly no one cares but now things like that are used as news items by media outlets to get views

[Marsh.]

The negative effects and risks of self-identified male transgenders having access to female areas have been pointed out many times and quite frankly are obvious. You still fully support it though which demonstrates your lack of concern on the risks to women and clearly shows where your priorities lie. I have jumped to no conclusions as your views are clear and your lack of understanding or thought for the female perspective is crystal clear.

All the sexual predators, perverts and misogynists out there must have a big smile on their faces at the lack of concern demonstrated for women’s rights and women’s safety by many men. As has been pointed out on many occasions transgenders’ ‘rights’ do not and should not trample over womens’ rights to privacy and safety.

Safety should be the main concern here for everyone but too many are too busy shouting about the ‘rights’ of a minority group, mostly men, and point-scoring to give a crap.

Again, you've made all of that up out of thin air.

"You still fully support it"

No I do not. You've jumped to those conclusions based on nothing.

Read and comprehend.

[Brillopad]

Again, you've made all of that up out of thin air.

"You still fully support it"

No I do not. You've jumped to those conclusions based on nothing.

Read and comprehend.

Nothing - really! What are you arguing about then. Do you or don't you support the self-identification of men as women who are therefore free to use the ladies bathrooms?

[Niamh.]

My feeling is that this whole topic has become a minefield, with people fearful of expressing their opinions in case they get called trans-phobic. The thing is, it's a debate, no-one is being persecuted, people should be free to choose the words that they think expresses their feelings best and makes their viewpoint clear. I mean it's almost as if expressing oneself is becoming a mortal sin. No laws have been broken, no-one is preaching hate. People should not be guilted into suppressing their opinions when they have done nothing legally or morally wrong.

Yes I agree.

This is a very good article actually talking about just that, in it also she pretty much down to a tee describes what I was trying to say earlier about what I think makes me a woman, lots and lots of women have said the exact same thing but when we say it we're told no we're wrong that isn't what makes us a woman, instead we have to just believe what someone else tell us makes us a woman :

My experience of being a woman is, for the most part biological. When I think about what makes me a woman, it’s all tangled up with my female body. It’s the embarrassment the first time I leaked on a chair during my period, the frustration of trying to buy a nice bra in TopShop when I was a D cup and none of my friends had reached a B yet. It’s having sex for the first time, discovering masturbation, having pregnancy scares, feeling my biological clock start to tick as I enter my late twenties. Having adult men shout ‘nice tits’ at me when I wasn’t quite fifteen yet. It’s as simple as having your bra’s underwire poke you in the chest all day or asking a stranger in a bathroom if she had a spare tampon. Small, universal experiences that any other woman – or at least any other cis woman – would understand.


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/19/people-must-allowed-discuss-trans-issues-without-fear-called-bigots-7398359/?ito=desktop.article.share.top.facebook?ito=cbshar e

Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

[Marsh.]

Nothing - really! What are you arguing about then. Do you or don't you support the self-identification of men as women who are therefore free to use the ladies bathrooms?
What am I arguing about then?

My input to this thread ended two days ago. However, I will reply when I get notifications that my posts are being responded to and people are saying I have said things I never did.

Kindly do one.

[Brillopad]

What am I arguing about then?

My input to this thread ended two days ago. However, I will reply when I get notifications that my posts are being responded to and people are saying I have said things I never did.

Kindly do one.

With pleasure!

[Kizzy]

This is beginning to smack of something else to marginalise women, I remember the backlash Germaine Greer got when she refused to acknowledge transfemales as women.

It was revolting and I felt conflicted because I felt exactly the same as her, I fully believe that womanhood is a whole life experience encompassing not just how you act, interact or react but how others do to you and that in many instances is gender specific.. that life experience can't and should't be discounted.

When you M/F transition you are not a woman, when you F/M transition you are not a man, you did not die you were not reborn.

Now not only do we have to fully accept men identifying as women we must accept being relabeled ourselves... No!

[Marsh.]

You're not being being labelled. "Cis" is simply descriptive. Did you reject heterosexual labels?

[Maru]

Umm. Cause if you use the f word to describe a gay person it would be homophobic and you will be infracted. If you use the n word to describe a black person you will be infracted. That's entirely logical. However calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Why is tibb tolerating transphobia but not other prejudices. The answer seems to be, because the moderating staff are ok with it and even use it themselves. Several people have brought up this transphobia before, and although I'm relieved that Vicky doesn't see it as transphobia, it just is. That is something she's understands incorrectly.

Vicky is either transphobic or she's not. It's been established already she is not. The penchant to then pull up on her personal wording and to suggest well let's fix this too, shift a word here and there... except this is what freedom of expression comes down to. It's in our words, on our own terms, when discussing our beliefs and how we frame logic in our own minds... it can't be restrictive if it's necessary to talk about certain topics and not impose a sort of cognitive dissonance on ourselves... it's shifting discomfort from one person to another is the way I see it.. is what this feels like in my mind, because let's be honest... she and the mods are being beat like a pinata for candy when they have no control over what others feel or believe. It's not just her mind, it's all our minds. We all have different views on this... and she personally is not trying to win anyone's affection for those beliefs or to change even their minds, that I can see? I even think some people just agree with this on their own terms? But supposedly some sin here is being committed here, although she is not transphobic, that makes her moderating intolerant? I think it's tolerant of her to not target people's thoughts over small things like out-of-context semantics when it comes to wording... something TiBB has never been all that sensitive to anyway when it comes to moderation. In fact the poster is given more benefit of doubt than not I'd say on most forums, and this isn't just related to trans discussions, but a lot of stealth trolling stays up, not just these particular lambs...we are arguing over virtue after this point, whether one action is more virtuous versus another.... but I think that her words and her courage to say what she actually means with conviction and to do this with tolerance of counter-arguments, that as well can be regarded as a virtue... and I don't know what to say to current or future transfolk, except, that this is the real world... one person's transphobia is another person's virtue, when we are being honest with ourselves and others and not mincing our words to suit the agenda of the day... we all think and come to different conclusions about what sex constitutes, the meaning of gender, the meaning of life even and to be fair, just about everything now is a moral contention :laugh:... I mean if it's not this, it'll be another. As if we are all virtue signaling and microaggressing the **** out of society.. and I do mean this, the oversensitive penchants do absolutely go both directions.

[Kizzy]

You're not being being labelled. "Cis" is simply descriptive. Did you reject heterosexual labels?

What are those, Mr & Mrs?

No, because they don't define me do they?

[Maru]

And also, I'm sorry completely to complicate our lives further and about to make this day so much harder... but I have heard cis used also a pejorative... :laugh:..

...

*walks away sadly*

https://media.giphy.com/media/xUPJPBAdETrDmYJNXq/giphy.gif

[Brillopad]

Vicky is either transphobic or she's not. It's been established already she is not. The penchant to then pull up on her personal wording and to suggest well let's fix this too, shift a word here and there... except this is what freedom of expression comes down to. It's in our words, on our own terms, when discussing our beliefs and how we frame logic in our own minds... it can't be restrictive if it's necessary to talk about certain topics and not impose a sort of cognitive dissonance on ourselves... it's shifting discomfort from one person to another is the way I see it.. is what this feels like in my mind, because let's be honest... she and the mods are being beat like a pinata for candy when they have no control over what others feel or believe. It's not just her mind, it's all our minds. We all have different views on this... and she personally is not trying to win anyone's affection for those beliefs or to change even their minds, that I can see? I even think some people just agree with this on their own terms? But supposedly some sin here is being committed here, although she is not transphobic, that makes her moderating intolerant? I think it's tolerant of her to not target people's thoughts over small things like out-of-context semantics when it comes to wording... something TiBB has never been all that sensitive to anyway when it comes to moderation. In fact the poster is given more benefit of doubt than not I'd say on most forums, and this isn't just related to trans discussions, but a lot of stealth trolling stays up, not just these particular lambs...we are arguing over virtue after this point, whether one action is more virtuous versus another.... but I think that her words and her courage to say what she actually means with conviction and to do this with tolerance of counter-arguments, that as well can be regarded as a virtue... and I don't know what to say to current or future transfolk, except, that this is the real world... one person's transphobia is another person's virtue, when we are being honest with ourselves and others and not mincing our words to suit the agenda of the day... we all think and come to different conclusions about what sex constitutes, the meaning of gender, the meaning of life even and to be fair, just about everything now is a moral contention :laugh:... I mean if it's not this, it'll be another. As if we are all virtue signaling and microaggressing the **** out of society.. and I do mean this, the oversensitive penchants do absolutely go both directions.

Excellent post! :thumbs:

[Marsh.]

What are those, Mr & Mrs?

No, because they don't define me do they?
Since when do Mr and Mrs denote heterosexuality?

I'm talking about "straight" or "heterosexual" being used as descriptors when discussing sexuality.

But "cis" is suddenly a label being forced on you when discussing trans.

[Kizzy]

Since when do Mr and Mrs denote heterosexuality?

I'm talking about "straight" or "heterosexual" being used as descriptors when discussing sexuality.

But "cis" is suddenly a label being forced on you when discussing trans.

It is yes, I had never heard of this until this discussion.

This gets more confusing by the day, in the other thread Shaun used that term as a descriptor too but in the context of 2 women in a bar, one 'transwoman' and one 'ciswoman'

My sexuality doesn't define me either.

[Brillopad]

It is yes, I had never heard of this until this discussion.

This gets more confusing by the day, in the other thread Shaun used that term as a descriptor too but in the context of 2 women in a bar, one 'transwoman' and one 'ciswoman'

My sexuality doesn't define me either.

One thing at least we are very much agreed on!

I will never accept the label of 'cis' and I know many feel the same.

[Beso]

So do people suffer from phantom cock syndrom or not?

[Vicky.]

Stepping back from this topic now as tbh, it seems I cannot win no matter what (what a surprise :laugh: ) but I will say, I will not be effectively bullied into saying a male person is actually female.

Of course it would be different if I had just randomly said 'Lauren harries is a man' for no reason at all but when its actually relevant to the conversation? I will acknowledge that her sex is male. Its not her sex WAS male, her sex still is male. She is a male person who had cosmetic surgery to look more like a woman, to alleviate the dysphoria she felt over her sexed body. I would have no issue using she and her about Harries, and I would not randomly say if she was infront of me 'you are a man' nor would I randomly say on a topic about her, without an actual reason/relevance 'she is male'. But Lauren knows she is male, why is it so horrendous for me to know this too?

Lauren was brought up in what I feel was meant to be a 'haha, got ya' type way, and I was blunt in my beliefs. I do not believe male people can be lesbians. I am positive that my view is not some kind of minority fringe view like people try to make out.

Either way, I do try to be understanding and actually take on board other peoples views. But I will be honest and say that I have a very had time trying to understand viewpoints such as 'people can actually change sex' and 'male people can actually be female' and 'transactivisim is not misogynistic and homophobic' and such. Oh, along with the need some have to bring up lesbians whenever discussing male people in female areas. I find that pretty crappy tbh. Thats not something only found on here, its extremely common in discussions about this elsewhere...like 'you are not happy with male people in female prisons? That must mean you are not happy with lesbians being in female prisons, should they be in with the men?' which basically to me reads as saying lesbians are men, or like men in some way.

And I do not think that acknowledging biological sex is transphobic either. If this is peoples bar for what constitutes transphobia and what does not, they will always be sorely disappointing with moderating. The trans topic is unlike anything we have ever seen before, as effectively everyone is expected to forget everything they know, and suspend reality in a way as to pretend that male and female are not actual real things. We cannot be deleting people/banning people for posting about biology/reality as we currently know it. If this means that we are seen as transphobic ourselves, so be it.


So yeah, this was meant to be just a line or two saying I was stepping back now, but I rambled on a bit more. I won't be replying anymore to this thread now...so do your worst :p I also won't be pretending that I do not acknowledge biology so that people feel better about the way I express my viewpoints. Sorry.

[Jamie89]

And also, I'm sorry completely to complicate our lives further and about to make this day so much harder... but I have heard cis used also a pejorative... [emoji23]..

...

*walks away sadly*

https://media.giphy.com/media/xUPJPBAdETrDmYJNXq/giphy.gifSo does 'gay' but it's still accurate as a descriptor tbf. 'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult, but then so does something like 'white trash', but the person being described is still white. And it doesn't mean the word 'white' itself is an insult.

It is yes, I had never heard of this until this discussion.

This gets more confusing by the day, in the other thread Shaun used that term as a descriptor too but in the context of 2 women in a bar, one 'transwoman' and one 'ciswoman'

My sexuality doesn't define me either.

Cis just means that you don't consider your gender to be different to your birth sex. So cis woman would mean you were born a woman and consider yourself to be a woman, is that not an accurate description? In what way does that redefine you?

[Kizzy]

Cis just means that you don't consider your gender to be different to your birth sex. So cis woman would mean you were born a woman and consider yourself to be a woman, is that not an accurate description? In what way does that redefine you?

The term woman means I consider myself to be a woman and or was born a woman.

Transwoman is the term for someone who transitioned into a female I believe.

[smudgie]

So does 'gay' but it's still accurate as a descriptor tbf. 'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult, but then so does something like 'white trash', but the person being described is still white. And it doesn't mean the word 'white' itself is an insult.



Cis just means that you don't consider your gender to be different to your birth sex. So cis woman would mean you were born a woman and consider yourself to be a woman, is that not an accurate description? In what way does that redefine you?

Does this mean we have cis men as well?
All these labels just make things more confusing.
Surely woman is enough to define a woman, the same as man is to define a man.
Trans should mean just that, someone who has transitioned, therefore can be classed as who they have transitioned to. There should be no shame or embarrassment about this.
As to all this men with a penis calling lesbians who refuse to sleep with them transphobic..well, wake up call, they just don’t fancy you, get over yourself.

[Kizzy]

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.

[Marsh.]

It is yes, I had never heard of this until this discussion.

This gets more confusing by the day, in the other thread Shaun used that term as a descriptor too but in the context of 2 women in a bar, one 'transwoman' and one 'ciswoman'

My sexuality doesn't define me either.
Nobody said either defines you.

My question was why you don't mind sexuality descriptors during a sexuality discussion but take issue with a trans identifier or non identifier during such discussion.

Neither defines you but are simple terms used during a discussion of either.

[bots]

it's interesting to me that the people shouting transphobia are the same ones that insist on calling people cis when the have been repeatedly told that others are offended when being addressed with that term :idc:

[Jamie89]

The term woman means I consider myself to be a woman and or was born a woman.

Transwoman is the term for someone who transitioned into a female I believe.

'Woman' is gender specific though, whereas 'cis' isn't. Just as 'trans' on it's own isn't. And for trans to exist as a word that describes a state of being, there has to be an opposite to that in language, somebody who isn't trans. And that's all that 'cis' does. If you were to describe someone as not being transsexual, for example as a way of highlighting a trans issue that might effect people who aren't transsexual, then you might need to describe that the person you are talking about is not transsexual. That's literally all that cis exists for. I think Shaun said in an earlier post that by having a word like that instead of just saying woman/transwoman or man/transman, is that it reduces the likelihood of people saying things like 'normal' woman differentiate, because there's a word for it. And if we're just talking about people, then it would be people/transpeople, removing transpeople from the category of 'people'. Instead we can say 'cis people'.

Does this mean we have cis men as well?
All these labels just make things more confusing.
Surely woman is enough to define a woman, the same as man is to define a man.
Trans should mean just that, someone who has transitioned, therefore can be classed as who they have transitioned to. There should be no shame or embarrassment about this.
As to all this men with a penis calling lesbians who refuse to sleep with them transphobic..well, wake up call, they just don’t fancy you, get over yourself.

Yes, cis is completely gender neutral, it only means that a person isn't trans, regardless of birth sex/how they view themselves etc etc

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.

Yes it would be an insult, I suppose that could be considered cis phobic. Just like calling someone white trash could be considered racist. But the white person is still white, it doesn't stop the descriptor from being accurate.
And 'cis scum' wouldn't marginalise women as it doesnt mention women, like I said it's not gender specific.

[Marsh.]

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.
Anything can be used as an insult.

The accent you speak with, the town you're from, your sexuality, your gender, your hair colour, your job, your clothes, your nationality, your skin colour etc etc.

Does that make any of those individual things insults themselves? No not at all.

[Brillopad]

it's interesting to me that the people shouting transphobia are the same ones that insist on calling people cis when the have been repeatedly told that others are offended when being addressed with that term :idc:

It is indeed. It seems only certain groups have the right to be offended and the rest are just expected to put up with it.

[Kizzy]

Nobody said either defines you.

My question was why you don't mind sexuality descriptors during a sexuality discussion but take issue with a trans identifier or non identifier during such discussion.

Neither defines you but are simple terms used during a discussion of either.

Have I not explained this? I see 'ciswoman' as another way to marginalise women.. I don't subscribe to the term or agree with it's use in any context.

Is that clear, if you think that's wrong let it be known I don't care.

[Marsh.]

Have I not explained this? I see 'ciswoman' as another way to marginalise women.. I don't subscribe to the term or agree with it's use in any context.

Is that clear, if you think that's wrong let it be known I don't care.

There you go misunderstanding yet again. Cis doesn't refer to women. Cis is the name for anyone who is not trans, man or woman. It doesn't marginalise them anymore than "heterosexual" does.

So? Is whether Kizzy cares or not a barometer for whether we can post or not? It's not your thread.

[Kizzy]

Anything can be used as an insult.

The accent you speak with, the town you're from, your sexuality, your gender, your hair colour, your job, your clothes, your nationality, your skin colour etc etc.

Does that make any of those individual things insults themselves? No not at all.

If that has been specifically engineered to be used as a derogatory term as this to me has then I have every right to reject it, and I do.

If it wasn't and it's been hijacked by prejudiced people as other terms have been throughout the ages then why is it not seen as acceptable to drop the term?... Have women to be complicit in their own degradation?

I don't think so.

[Kizzy]

There you go misunderstanding yet again. Cis doesn't refer to women. Cis is the name for anyone who is not trans, man or woman. It doesn't marginalise them anymore than "heterosexual" does.

So? Is whether Kizzy cares or not a barometer for whether we can post or not? It's not your thread.

No you can post whatever you like as can I....

There you go mansplaining again, along with your usual dose of mockery you have ignored my point entirely here which was there is no need for prefix... A woman that is not a transwoman is a woman.

[Marsh.]

No you can post whatever you like as can I....

There you go mansplaining again, along with your usual dose of mockery you have ignored my point entirely here which was there is no need for prefix... A woman that is not a transwoman is a woman.

Ignoring that the prefix also applies to men.

There's no mansplaining Kizzy, you're twisting the truth in order to offend yourself.

You still haven't said why "cis" marginalises women and every other prefix doesn't?

[Kizzy]

I'm out of here too, you be a cisman if you like...you don't hear that term banded round much I see though

:wavey:

[Marsh.]

I'm out of here too, you be a cisman if you like...you don't hear that term banded round much I see though

:wavey:

You don't hear cis banded around much at all. Except when you venture into trans-discussions. Funny that.

You don't really help your cause throwing words around like "mansplaining" as though just because I happen to be male and you happen to be female, I must be mansplaining. :idc:

If the marginalisation of women is something you take great issue with, you don't do yourself any favours marginalising yourself where you don't need to.

[Twosugars]

Marsh & Jamie89 - respect

Kizzy, would it be ok for a straight man to protest and call himself simply a man? Coz he is not gay so while a gay man is a gay man he is a man, meaning a normal man?

[Twosugars]

Dunno if there's much fuss about the term cis outside of tibb, but if there is the maybe find something less controversial, even if clumsier, like nontrans?

[Marsh.]

Dunno if there's much fuss about the term cis outside of tibb, but if there is the maybe find something less controversial, even if clumsier, like nontrans?

It's still trans-related, so therefore an issue.

[Livia]

Kizzy and I almost never agree, but I have to say I'm 100% behind her on this one.

[Marsh.]

Why?

[Livia]

Why?

Because I feel the same way that she does about this subject.

Edit: and having skimmed the thread, I'm also totally in agreement with Niamh and Vicky.

[Twosugars]

It's still trans-related, so therefore an issue.
don't understand it, but ok.
personally don't have a problem with that as it'd be used in trans-related discussions only, I imagine
and it is nicely symetric reminiscent of chemical isomers

Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of", which means the opposite of trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of"
wikipedia def.

[Marsh.]

Because I feel the same way that she does about this subject.

No, I meant why do you feel "cis" marginalises women?

Nobody else has actually explained the reasoning behind this and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Marsh.]

don't understand it, but ok.
personally don't have a problem with that as it'd be used in trans-related discussions only, I imagine
and it is nicely symetric reminiscent of chemical isomers

Cisgender has its origin in the Latin-derived prefix cis-, meaning "on this side of", which means the opposite of trans-, meaning "across from" or "on the other side of"
wikipedia def.

Exactly. But if someone is determined to be offended, they'll be offended.

[Livia]

No, I meant why do you feel "cis" marginalises women?

Nobody else has actually explained the reasoning behind this and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

I've never heard it, I don't need it and I don't want it. I'm a heterosexual woman. That's all you need to know.

Some people like to pigeon-hole others. I hate that. I particularly hate it when it's a pigeon hole that's been made up on the spot and which I do not recognise.

[Marsh.]

I've never heard it, I don't need it and I don't want it. I'm a heterosexual woman. That's all you need to know.

Some people like to pigeon-hole others. I hate that. I particularly hate it when it's a pigeon hole that's been made up on the spot and which I do not recognise.

It's not pigeon-holing, it's a description. Much like heterosexual. Or white. Or British. Or blonde. Or gay. Or catholic.

So, why the issue with cis and not heterosexual?

[Livia]

It's not pigeon-holing, it's a description. Much like heterosexual. Or white. Or British. Or blonde. Or gay. Or catholic.

So, why the issue with cis and not heterosexual?

I don't know where the term comes from nor what it means.

Why the issue with heterosexual? Because that's what I am, not what the trans community decided I should be.

[Twosugars]

Exactly. But if someone is determined to be offended, they'll be offended.

True.

I had no idea before reading this convo, but it looks like women feel somehow threatened in all this. I don't pretend to undestand why, can only guess.

Could it be that women feel protective of their gender identity and hard fought-for rights and see transgender as another encroachment into their domain by men?

[Marsh.]

I don't know where the term comes from nor what it means.

Why the issue with heterosexual? Because that's what I am, not what the trans community decided I should be.

The trans community decided you're not a transperson? :conf:

If you don't know what it means, why have you automatically taken offence to it? That seems rather silly.

[Twosugars]

I wonder if before gay rights people objected the same way? I'm not a hetersexual man, I'm a man, simple as.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wonder if before gay rights people objected the same way? I'm not a hetersexual man, I'm a man, simple as.

well plenty people prefer not to talk about what type of sex they like


i would be like :umm2: if someone introduced themselves in such a rude manner

[Marsh.]

well plenty people prefer not to talk about what type of sex they like


i would be like :umm2: if someone introduced themselves in such a rude manner

Well, since when does someone knowing your sexuality mean they suddenly know how you like it in bed? :conf:

[Livia]

The trans community decided you're not a transperson? :conf:

If you don't know what it means, why have you automatically taken offence to it? That seems rather silly.

No, the trans community decided I should have a different description to the one I've always lived with. It's not their place, nor yours, to decide what I should be happy to be called.

No, what's seems rather silly is that someone else has decided I should be classes as cis and I'm telling you I am heterosexual and not willing to accept made up terms by groups of people I am not a part of.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, since when does someone knowing your sexuality mean they suddenly know how you like it in bed? :conf:

have you ever been introduced as Marshall the heterosexual?

id say never?

[Twosugars]

well plenty people prefer not to talk about what type of sex they like


i would be like :umm2: if someone introduced themselves in such a rude manner

I agree. That's the whole point. Such terms are not used in everyday life, but only in discussions about sexuality. I'd imagine the term cis would also be only used in specific cases.

[Livia]

True.

I had no idea before reading this convo, but it looks like women feel somehow threatened in all this. I don't pretend to undestand why, can only guess.

Could it be that women feel protective of their gender identity and hard fought-for rights and see transgender as another encroachment into their domain by men?

Yes, exactly that. And now I have to accept someone who's been a man for fifty years and decided now's the right time to dress as a woman and tell me I have a new label. Cis.

It's like the media running a story about the first British woman on the front line and what a coup for women. Turned out it was a man, he'd been a man all through his training, all through his service and in Afghanistan decided he wanted to be a woman. That is not the first woman on the front line.

[Marsh.]

have you ever been introduced as Marshall the heterosexual?

id say never?

No. But then nobody gets introduced as "Ciswoman/man". So what exactly is your point?

[Crimson Dynamo]

No. But then nobody gets introduced as "Ciswoman/man". So what exactly is your point?

I am not sure :conf2:

[Marsh.]

No, the trans community decided I should have a different description to the one I've always lived with. It's not their place, nor yours, to decide what I should be happy to be called.

No, what's seems rather silly is that someone else has decided I should be classes as cis and I'm telling you I am heterosexual and not willing to accept made up terms by groups of people I am not a part of.

No, they really haven't.

You're still a woman. The word cis just denotes a woman born as such when discussing trans topics. The same as white woman when discussing race/skin colour related topics, heterosexual woman when discussing sexualities.

That's literally all there is to it. You're making a bigger deal out of it than it actually is.

[AnnieK]

I personally don't have an issue with the term "cis" to describe me. I can't think of an instance in my day to day life where I would ever use or where it would be used in my direction but if it was I wouldn't take offense. If it was thrown at me as an insult "cis scum" I would take offense but probably no more than if any insult is thrown at me.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I personally don't have an issue with the term "cis" to describe me. I can't think of an instance in my day to day life where I would ever use or where it would be used in my direction but if it was I wouldn't take offense. If it was thrown at me as an insult "cis scum" I would take offense but probably no more than if any insult is thrown at me.

I would hope noone would be rude enough to use that abhorrent term

[Marsh.]

I personally don't have an issue with the term "cis" to describe me. I can't think of an instance in my day to day life where I would ever use or where it would be used in my direction but if it was I wouldn't take offense. If it was thrown at me as an insult "cis scum" I would take offense but probably no more than if any insult is thrown at me.

Well exactly. Anything can be used as an insult if you stick a derogatory word after it.

The fuss being made about it is what's marginalising people, not the words themselves.

But, I imagine offence is automatically taken by a lot of people in regards to this topic, so they will automatically find offence by anything to do with it.

[AnnieK]

I would hope noone would be rude enough to use that abhorrent term

Indeed.......

[Niamh.]

I personally don't have an issue with the term "cis" to describe me. I can't think of an instance in my day to day life where I would ever use or where it would be used in my direction but if it was I wouldn't take offense. If it was thrown at me as an insult "cis scum" I would take offense but probably no more than if any insult is thrown at me.

Yeah I think that's why I don't like the term because anytime I've seen it (other than when we've talked in this forum) it's been used in an insulting and derogatory manner and also everytime I've seen it used in this way it's been used towards women which is why it' seems to me ore of womens issue rather than mens

[Twosugars]

Went to a Germaine Greer lecture years ago. She was promoting her book "about a boy", it was about art celebrating the beauty of young male body.
Her point was that women should reclaim the appreciation of fit males from gay men.
She also touched on trans issues, needless to say, she was very critical.
Had a word with her afterwards, her hostility or maybe suspicion of gays and trans was clear.
It is what it is. I can understand why women can feel suspicious and uneasy. After all, men have dominated their gender for, like, ever and things like drag queens, trans etc can be seen as invading their only safe space, their womanhood. And it doesn't matter that some of us may think trans progress is not a threat to womanhood.
If women, some or majority, feel this way, it has to be accepted and addressed. The bottome line is we can't have sexual progress at the real or perceived expense of women.
Both genders, but women in particular, need to be okay with whatever is done is that area. Imho.

[Marsh.]

Went to a Germaine Greer lecture years ago. She was promoting her book "about a boy", it was about art celebrating the beauty of young male body.
Her point was that women should reclaim the appreciation of fit males from gay men.
She also touched on trans issues, needless to say, she was very critical.
Had a word with her afterwards, her hostility or maybe suspicion of gays and trans was clear.
It is what it is. I can understand why women can feel suspicious and uneasy. After all, men have dominated their gender for, like, ever and things like drag queens, trans etc can be seen as invading their only safe space, their womanhood. And it doesn't matter that some of us may think trans progress is not a threat to womanhood.
If women, some or majority, feel this way, it has to be accepted and addressed. The bottome line is we can't have sexual progress at the real or perceived expense of women.
Both genders, but women in particular, need to be okay with whatever is done is that area. Imho.

There also can't be progress with women stubbornly refusing progress despite even the times they don't understand it or refuse to understand it, and shouting down any male who dares to speak.


Her point was that women should reclaim the appreciation of fit males from gay men.

She always was an irrational person.

[Twosugars]

There also can't be progress with women stubbornly refusing progress despite even the times they don't understand it or refuse to understand it, and shouting down any male who dares to speak.

Still, a common ground has to be found.
I would change the term cis if it's not accepted. And forget about self-identification and only take into account gender-reassigment surgery.

She always was an irrational person.

lol, she is "hardline", no question.

[Vicky.]

I know I said I would not post in here again, but I came across this article that I think fits really well here, especially with how the conversation has progressed.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/misogyny_hate_silencing/

Especially

There is clear evidence that women who ask questions or voice their concerns are being specifically targeted to silence them. Their motives and views are unfairly denounced as transphobic and inspired by hate. This impacts these women directly but also induces a climate of fear and shame to prevent other women speaking or learning more about the issues that impact them also. It also means the few women’s voices that do get heard are dismissed or mistrusted. The demonisation and marginalisation of a group’s role in society is a well known tactic. It is exploited by oppressors and should not be tolerated in a democratic society where the principle of free speech is upheld and valued. A few well known examples include Hitler’s demonisation of the Jews, the racist denigration of immigrants, Liverpool fans at Hillsborough.

No platforming of women from speaking at university events is common-place ranging from well known radical feminists such as Julie Bindel and Germaine Greer to the Women’s hour presenter Jeni Murray. This is now being extended to grass-root women’s campaign groups and many other ordinary women who wish to speak about the impact of transgender laws on women. This is happening both in the UK and globally.

And for my point earlier, about supposed 'male lesbians'

7.3 Lesbian women are being silenced and sexuality is being redefined

Lesbian women are a particularly vulnerable group since they are targets of both homophobic and misogynistic hate crime. The concept that gender identity trumps biological sex as a marker of whether someone is man / male or woman / female redefines our existing concepts of two protected characteristics in the Equality Act; namely sex and sexual orientation. If a heterosexual male (sexually attracted to females) identifies as a women (sexually attracted to females) their sexual orientation is redefined as now being homosexual. As such we now have male-born lesbians with penis and testicles present in the dating pool for lesbian women. Lesbian women who state a preference for female-born lesbians are condemned as transphobic for doing so. Transgender theory challenges the whole concept of same-sex attraction and is considered by some as homophobic. Indeed, there are some countries (Iran) where homosexuality is punishable by death yet have a policy of state-sponsored transitioning to the opposite gender. This effectively converts a gay person’s orientation to heterosexual and is clearly used there as an method of gay conversion. This highlights the inherent conflict between the theoretical underpinning of gender identity (based on gender) and sexuality (based on sex).

This example shows the banning of a lesbian women who is describing her sexuality as only attracted to other natal females. She was removed for transphobia and trans-misogyny. This is commonly referred to as the ‘cotton ceiling’ (the cotton referring to the cotton of a lesbian women’s underwear through which male-born lesbian may expect access). Many more examples of lesbian women being denounced for their sexual preference can be found here.

NOW I will no longer post in here. But there is a very real problem right now, and burying heads in the sand about it, or even actively joining in with the silencing of women, is anything but progressive. Its regressive.

[Marsh.]

Still, a common ground has to be found.
I would change the term cis if it's not accepted. And forget about self-identification and only take into account gender-reassigment surgery.

I don't think changing the word would help. People are taking issue with having any word full stop. For reasons that still haven't been explained.

[Brillopad]

I know I said I would not post in here again, but I came across this article that I think fits really well here, especially with how the conversation has progressed.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/misogyny_hate_silencing/

Especially





And for my point earlier, about supposed 'male lesbians'



NOW I will no longer post. But there is a very real problem right now, and burying heads in the sand about it, or even actively joining in with the silencing of women, is anything but progressive. Its regressive.

There are a lot who support you on this Vicki. Don't let them drive you away from SD!

[Marsh.]

Who's driving Vicky away from anywhere?

[Niamh.]

I don't think changing the word would help. People are taking issue with having any word full stop. For reasons that still haven't been explained.

I did explain the reason i personally didn't like it.

[Marsh.]

I did explain the reason i personally didn't like it.

Then I appear to have missed your post. :laugh:

[Twosugars]

I know I said I would not post in here again, but I came across this article that I think fits really well here, especially with how the conversation has progressed.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/misogyny_hate_silencing/

Especially





And for my point earlier, about supposed 'male lesbians'



NOW I will no longer post in here. But there is a very real problem right now, and burying heads in the sand about it, or even actively joining in with the silencing of women, is anything but progressive. Its regressive.

That is beyond bad, I had no idea as I don't follow the topic properly.

Don't leave the convo, Vicky.

[Niamh.]

Then I appear to have missed your post. :laugh:

Here you go -

Yeah I think that's why I don't like the term because anytime I've seen it (other than when we've talked in this forum) it's been used in an insulting and derogatory manner and also everytime I've seen it used in this way it's been used towards women which is why it' seems to me ore of womens issue rather than mens

[bots]

i will explain clearly why i think the cis description is entirely unnecessary. It is only in existence because the trans community want to be classified without distinction as being men or women. So they want unequivocal inclusion in those categories. The reality is that there is a distinction, so they have created the term cis and put everyone else in that bucket. So, in effect, they have removed the simple status of man and woman from those who were born as such and identify as such. With that being the basis of the distinction, it's just not going to be acceptable to the majority.

[Marsh.]

Here you go -

But isn't that like taking issue with the word "Irish" to describe your nationality? Just because some people might choose to try to offend you by adding insults before or after it?

Seems odd that a fairly innocuous word is being picked out because some not very nice people add insults after it.

I've heard "Hetero scum" a few times, it doesn't change what heterosexual means though.

[Cherie]

Coming back to the new legislation about self identifying, exactly how can this work if I can the day after the law is passed put on a mans suit and tie walk into some longstanding all men's club and they have to accept me? as it stands at the moment (and I didn't know this until this morning) under the equality any man dressed in female clothes can access women's changing rooms and toilets, I really don't think this has been thought through properly at all.

[Marsh.]

i will explain clearly why i think the cis description is entirely unnecessary. It is only in existence because the trans community want to be classified without distinction as being men or women. So they want unequivocal inclusion in those categories. The reality is that there is a distinction, so they have created the term cis and put everyone else in that bucket. So, in effect, they have removed the simple status of man and woman from those who were born as such and identify as such. With that being the basis of the distinction, it's just not going to be acceptable to the majority.

It's not though. You think cis means that men and women are separated by women/ciswomen and men/cismen? So transpeople are taking men/women for themselves and we are all left with cis? :joker: No. It's men and women of which there are cis/trans within each.

Mountain out of molehill.

[Marsh.]

Coming back to the new legislation about self identifying, exactly how can this work if I can the day after the law is passed put on a mans suit and tie walk into some longstanding all men's club and they have to accept me? as it stands at the moment (and I didn't know this until this morning) under the equality any man dressed in female clothes can access women's changing rooms and toilets, I really don't think this has been thought through properly at all.

Now that I agree with.

And it flies in the face of all of the uproar we have had over gender stereotypes in regards to clothes, children's toys, colours where they shouldn't be associated with any particular gender anyway. So a woman in trousers being a man is so unprogressive and dated it's laughable. :joker:

[Niamh.]

But isn't that like taking issue with the word "Irish" to describe your nationality? Just because some people might choose to try to offend you by adding insults before or after it?

Seems odd that a fairly innocuous word is being picked out because some not very nice people add insults after it.

I've heard "Hetero scum" a few times, it doesn't change what heterosexual means though.

I was explaining why I personally have a negative association with the word because before I ever heard the word on it's own as a descriptor or whatever it was put forward to me as being an insult

I knew what the words Irish and Hetero were and meant on there own before I ever heard them put together with an insult, if you get what I mean?

This is just my own personal experience btw, i'm not speaking for anyone else in here

[Brillopad]

i will explain clearly why i think the cis description is entirely unnecessary. It is only in existence because the trans community want to be classified without distinction as being men or women. So they want unequivocal inclusion in those categories. The reality is that there is a distinction, so they have created the term cis and put everyone else in that bucket. So, in effect, they have removed the simple status of man and woman from those who were born as such and identify as such. With that being the basis of the distinction, it's just not going to be acceptable to the majority.

Exactly. I just looked up a definition that said "Many transgender people prefer 'cisgender' to biologicial, genetic, real or male or female because of the implications of those".

Basically it is all about their feelings and to hell with how birth women feel. Not having it personally.

[Marsh.]

Exactly. I just looked up a definition that said "Many transgender people prefer 'cisgender' to biologicial, genetic, real or male or female because of the implications of those".

Basically it is all about their feelings and to hell with how birth women feel. Not having it personally.

So, it's bad for it to be all about their feelings, but fine for it to be all about yours?

Not contradictory at all.

[Marsh.]

I was explaining why I personally have a negative association with the word because before I ever heard the word on it's own as a descriptor or whatever it was put forward to me as being an insult

I knew what the words Irish and Hetero were and meant on there own before I ever heard them put together with an insult, if you get what I mean?

This is just my own personal experience btw, i'm not speaking for anyone else in here

Oh, I understand that. But now that you do know the word and what it means, do you still feel the same way?

[Niamh.]

Oh, I understand that. But now that you do know the word and what it means, do you still feel the same way?

I think for me I'm always going to associate it with negativity now. Other than people in here explaining what it means, I've never heard it in an actual sentence other than a negative one

[AnnieK]

So, it's bad for it to be all about their feelings, but fine for it to be all about yours?

Not contradictory at all.

That could work both ways though - there needs to be some middle ground. I have no idea what that could be but as it stands there is always going to be a group who feel hard done to by this - who gets to decide who that is or how is could be addressed is impossible to imagine with such an emotive topic

[Niamh.]

Basically the way I see it, transexuals have been around for a very longtime and women as far as I can tell haven't had any issues with that, what seems to be causing problems now is the whole Self ID issues and demanding access to womens prisons, changing rooms, bathrooms etc transwomen who have spent most of their lives as men and have biological advantages over women wanting to be able to compete against women in sport, sports which are sex segregated because of these biological advantages like MMA for example which is not just a physical contact sport but a combat sport, it's ****ing dangerous but there seems to be little regard for womens safety for fear of being seen as a bigot, that our safety and privacy is now seen as less important.

[Brillopad]

So, it's bad for it to be all about their feelings, but fine for it to be all about yours?

Not contradictory at all.

If not all parties can be placated on this - then those born as women have priority in my opinion. We were born women so why would those that feel like women get priority. It makes no sense.

My biggest issues however are with self-identification due to the privacy and safety issues. That is not happening - women will NOT accept it. And woe betide those forcing it on us when the inevitable happens - and it will. There will be an uproar.

[Twosugars]

That could work both ways though - there needs to be some middle ground. I have no idea what that could be but as it stands there is always going to be a group who feel hard done to by this - who gets to decide who that is or how is could be addressed is impossible to imagine with such an emotive topic

Exactly.
I fear people will get bullied and hurt before it's all settled. But it has to be settled. I don't see trans issue going away, if anything it will become more prominent. This is the next big issue after settling the homosexuality issue.
I think the number of people questioning their gender will grow as now it is "allowed" by society until it reaches a natural plateau. We need a way of dealing with it.

[Maru]

Personally, I think when it comes to multiculturalism and the way our societies are constructed now, we have to all realize now, we can't all have our cake and eat it too. For example, with regards to this conversation, some folk will find our use of language or cultural values oppressive, and tolerating that is the new civility... this is just something we have to individually accept and tolerate, that some other people will see things a different way. It doesn't mean we have to lapse on our own belief systems and in our own judgements, but I think this is the new "us" in that sense, that we will have to be civil towards ideologies that don't match our own.

There is no shared identity, in the sense that we can all agree on each others positions on things, etc anymore, and get along like a 40's TV episode... as I see it, humility and civility go hand in hand... I'm OK to concede some areas, even OK to concede my "transphobia" if some folk desire to use a stricter definition... but I also don't think a transgender person should have to go through surgery and physical alter their being in order to fully integrate... I'm OK with sharing bathrooms with those folk as long as they attempt to pass, because our dress and our behaviors, those are markers... we know, ok we can expect this person is female. This is a universal code in a sense... but even making these concessions, I've already accepted that there will be folk who will be like "No, you want me to conform to X standard, that is way too far for me"... and that's what it is. Some people feel really strongly on these issues.. and you know, I have strong feelings too in some areas, and I'm not in the mindset to try to force this upon other folk. What I think and feel in my own time is my own business.. so I stand aside and let them people have their way... but to a certain point.

There are some truly hard edges in our society and we will have to come to a simplistic understanding of what that means for civility in the near future... in either case, I think our culture is about to change, our sense of co-joining national identity, even cultural identity (Western, Americanism, British, etc)... these are all about to be turned on their head. And that's OK if we all come out with a better understanding of where the other stands on their individual decisions in these terms... in the end, humility will have to be added to the recipe if we expect that there will be some kind of conjoined idea of "Us" ... that's where I feel a breaking point has occurred... anyway, I'm perfectly fine for people to yell at me cis cum queen if it helps the dust to settle just a little for them, I'll take it on the chin :love:...

[Jamie89]

Basically the way I see it, transexuals have been around for a very longtime and women as far as I can tell haven't had any issues with that

Very true

Coming back to the new legislation about self identifying, exactly how can this work if I can the day after the law is passed put on a mans suit and tie walk into some longstanding all men's club and they have to accept me? as it stands at the moment (and I didn't know this until this morning) under the equality any man dressed in female clothes can access women's changing rooms and toilets, I really don't think this has been thought through properly at all.

, what seems to be causing problems now is the whole Self ID issues and demanding access to womens prisons, changing rooms, bathrooms etc transwomen who have spent most of their lives as men and have biological advantages over women wanting to be able to compete against women in sport, sports which are sex segregated because of these biological advantages like MMA for example which is not just a physical contact sport but a combat sport, it's ****ing dangerous but there seems to be little regard for womens safety for fear of being seen as a bigot, that our safety and privacy is now seen as less important.

These are the real issues, as far as I see it anyway, I wonder if having a thread specifically about the self ID issues would be a good idea?

anyway, I'm perfectly fine for people to yell at me cis cum queen

I'm sure :hehe: (sorry couldn't help myself)

[Withano]

Cisgendered is a word that describes almost everybody in the world. Theres nothing offensive about it at all! You're literally getting offended by not being a minority.

[Alf]

Can I use the word "bent" to describe a homosexual?

Because the word "bent" is the oppisitte of the word "straight"

How do you feel on that one?

[Marsh.]

Can I use the word "bent" to describe a homosexual?

Because the word "bent" is the oppisitte of the word "straight"

How do you feel on that one?

Why would you use either when hetero and homo are words?

[Withano]

Can I use the word "bent" to describe a homosexual?

Because the word "bent" is the oppisitte of the word "straight"

How do you feel on that one?

Homosexual is to gay men what transexual is to transmen
Heterosexual is to straight men what cisgendered is to non-trans men


Bent is on par with other homophobic, transphobic, racist slurs, and has nothing to do with standard terminology so youve missed the point by several miles.

[jaxie]

'Cis scum' is something that gets used as an insult,'

Well there you are, it's already being used to slur people for no apparent reason other than that is how they were born? is that not 'phobic'...'cisphobic'? Is that a thing?

As I said it's another way to sideline, marginalise and make women appear less than.

100% agree with this. :clap1:

[Marsh.]

Old bitch. Short bastard. White trash. Straight scum.

Anything can be used as an insult. Doesn't make the original descriptions of old, short, white and straight anything more than they are.

[Withano]

Report cisphobia if you see it. Wouldnt get your hopes up though considering the relaxed approach to transphobia. As far as I know everyone on the forum is cisgendered, certainly everyone on the thread. This is such a non-issue, its laughable!

[jaxie]

True.

I had no idea before reading this convo, but it looks like women feel somehow threatened in all this. I don't pretend to undestand why, can only guess.

Could it be that women feel protective of their gender identity and hard fought-for rights and see transgender as another encroachment into their domain by men?

Finally the penny drops with someone male in this thread.

[Alf]

Why would you use either when hetero and homo are words?To describe somebody, just as you said the word cis is description (post 340)

[Twosugars]

Can I use the word "bent" to describe a homosexual?

Because the word "bent" is the oppisitte of the word "straight"

How do you feel on that one?

knock yourself out

no, I mean it, knock yourself out

[Marsh.]

To describe somebody, just as you said the word cis is description (post 340)

But, again, heterosexual/homosexual are the comparative words to cisgender/transgender.

"Bent" is homophobic. But you know that and just fancied being facetious.

[Marsh.]

Finally the penny drops with someone male in this thread.

Switch the genders and this would be infracted for baiting and sexism too.

[Alf]

knock yourself out

no, I mean it, knock yourself outWell I'd have to do it myself, because you'd never be able to do it.

[Twosugars]

have you ever been introduced as Marshall the heterosexual?

id say never?

:conf: I missed it earlier
...so, what, Marsh is a man?
my head is going to explode:conf2:

[Marsh.]

:conf: I missed it earlier
...so, what, Marsh is a man?
my head is going to explode:conf2:

Don't start on me WOMAN :oh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Report cisphobia if you see it. Wouldnt get your hopes up though considering the relaxed approach to transphobia. As far as I know everyone on the forum is cisgendered, certainly everyone on the thread. This is such a non-issue, its laughable!


You seem to be pretty much on your own here

:conf:

[Twosugars]

Don't start on me WOMAN :oh:

oh, be who you want, I can't help liking you anyway :tongue:

did you do Whitano's gender test? must check:suspect:

this forum...[buggers off into rl muttering to himself]

[Withano]

You seem to be pretty much on your own here

:conf:

Are you saying I'm the only cisgendered person on the forum? Or I'm the only one that finds taking offence to the word hilarious? I think your wrong whatever you're trying to say tbh.

[Marsh.]

I'm cisgendered and I find it hilarious too. :p

[Alf]

I like fanny

[Marsh.]

Alf seems to think the thread topic is about straight and gay people and it aint.

[Alf]

Alf seems to think the thread topic is about straight and gay people and it aint.Are you Policing again?

[Marsh.]

Are you Policing again?

When people come on and try to purposely twist a discussion, yes I will.

[Alf]

Alf seems to think the thread topic is about straight and gay people and it aint.You used the word "straight" do you know how offensive that is?

You don't care though, do ya?

[Brillopad]

Are you saying I'm the only cisgendered person on the forum? Or I'm the only one that finds taking offence to the word hilarious? I think your wrong whatever you're trying to say tbh.

Oh he thinks the word is hilarious - does that change the views of anyone else I wonder! :hehe:

It is the intent behind the current use of the word that many have an issue with. Blatant manipulation.

[Marsh.]

You used the word "straight" do you know how offensive that is?

You don't care though, do ya?

You say that to me as though trying to ridicule my argument, completely missing the fact it's not me getting offended over factual words. :pat:

[Alf]

You say that to me as though trying to ridicule my argument, completely missing the fact it's not me getting offended over factual words. :pat:It is you.

[Brillopad]

When people come on and try to purposely twist a discussion, yes I will.

I completely get that you would understand anyone doing that!

[Withano]

Oh he thinks the word is hilarious - does that change the views of anyone else I wonder! :hehe:

It is the intent behind the current use of the word that many have an issue with. Blatant manipulation.

I'm cisgendered, you're cisgendered. Only one of us is offended by the word, and its the one mocking snowflakes in their tag. :think:

[Marsh.]

It is you.

Of course it is, because you completely understand the topic being discussed and didn't just enter the thread with facetious comments designed to bait. :pat:

Keep going.

[Beso]

:conf: I missed it earlier
...so, what, Marsh is a man?
my head is going to explode:conf2:



Fingers crossed.:hehe:

[Marsh.]

I completely get that you would understand anyone doing that!

Now she's starting. :joker:

[Brillopad]

Now she's starting. :joker:

Yes SHE is in response to you doing so. So!

[Marsh.]

Brillo and Alf are derailing the thread again. Sort it mods.

[Beso]

Alf raises a bloody good point though.

[Alf]

Of course it is, because you completely understand the topic being discussed and didn't just enter the thread with facetious comments designed to bait. :pat:

Keep going.You're right there, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Sounds like a load of bollox to me.


I've got the last word in, what you gonna do about that?

[Marsh.]

Alf raises a bloody good point though.

A bloody good point about what? He hasn't mentioned anything about transgender/transsexual/transphobia once so any point he's making doesn't belong in the thread.

[Brillopad]

Of course it is, because you completely understand the topic being discussed and didn't just enter the thread with facetious comments designed to bait. :pat:

Keep going.

No you did that As usual. Are you going to put your finger on that button for others doing what you do daily. Is it ok for you then?

[Marsh.]

No you did that As usual. Are you going to put your finger on that button for others doing what you do daily. Is it ok for you then?

:joker: When did the thread become about me and what I do daily?

[Alf]

Brillo and Alf are derailing the thread again. Sort it mods.Help! People are disagreeing with me, please silence them.

[Marsh.]

You've not disagreed with anything.

You've come on and started shouting words like "bent" and "I like fanny" which has nothing to do with anything.

[Beso]

A bloody good point about what? He hasn't mentioned anything about transgender/transsexual/transphobia once so any point he's making doesn't belong in the thread.

The threads about words is it not?

Some people have just made it all about them, thats all.

[Brillopad]

Brillo and Alf are derailing the thread again. Sort it mods.

No Marsh is up to his usual games and cannot stand a bit of competition. He believes he is the only one allowed to do so- I wonder why!

[Marsh.]

No Marsh is up to his usual games and cannot stand a bit of competition. He believes he is the only one allowed to do so- I wonder why!

:joker::joker::joker::joker: What?

[Marsh.]

The threads about words is it not?

Some people have just made it all about them, thats all.

No, Alf and Brillo have jumped on and picked a moment to make it about me. That's different.

[AnnieK]

Omg, has this thread got to go the way of every other recently with you lot bickering? All the interesting threads get locked because of this. Please stop and ignore each other

[Beso]

No, Alf and Brillo have jumped on and picked a moment to make it about me. That's different.

Eh...no....no...thats not what happened.


Alf made a great point and you an two sugars got all arsey and pishy at him.



Im a innocent bystander just looking in from the outside...so i think i can see it better.

[Marsh.]

Eh...no....no...thats not what happened.


Alf made a great point and you an two sugars got all arsey and pishy at him.

"I like fanny" is a great point?

Ok. If you say so.

[Brillopad]

No, Alf and Brillo have jumped on and picked a moment to make it about me. That's different.

Dish it out - suck it up. Some really don’t like a dose of their own medicine. :hehe:

[Marsh.]

Dish it out - suck it up. Some really don’t like a dose of their own medicine. :hehe:

Yes, I make every thread about me.

Oh wait.

[Beso]

"I like fanny" is a great point?

Ok. If you say so.

I read that as alf saying i am what i am and its for noone but him to assign him a name.:shrug:

You obviously didnt.:joker:

[Alf]

"I like fanny" is a great point?

Ok. If you say so.Do you prefer the word minge?

[AnnieK]

Stop it all of you

https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpcogzx04M1r0v353o1_400.gif

[Marsh.]

I read that as alf saying i am what i am and its for noone but him to assign him a name.:shrug:

You obviously didnt.:joker:

Did anyone suggest he liked anything other than fanny?
I don't recall suggesting he was partial to a cock or two?

[Jamie89]

Stop it all of you

https://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpcogzx04M1r0v353o1_400.gif

:joker:

I'm going to bump my earlier suggestion of splitting Cherie's and Niamh's posts into a seperate thread that's specifically for Self ID discussion because I think it was a good one then and an even better one now!! :laugh:

[Brillopad]

Yes, I make every thread about me.

Oh wait.

And you try to imply that to shut me up. That worked well.

[Marsh.]

Do you prefer the word minge?

I know you think you're being really clever and mocking my outrage over words.
But I weren't the one haemorrhaging at labels. That's the ladies in this discussion. :pat:

[Marsh.]

And you try to imply that to shut me up. That worked well.

No, nothing shuts you up.

[Twosugars]

Fingers crossed.:hehe:

:nono: now, I'm watching you, mischief in chief


Marsh, I'd leave it until children go to bed

[Withano]

Omg, has this thread got to go the way of every other recently with you lot bickering? All the interesting threads get locked because of this. Please stop and ignore each other

I do see your point, but some literally come on to thread, ignore the topic entirely, and start to talk about themselves or other forum members... its a bit hard to ignore, though I do try.

Its just sad, because youre right. The interesting threads do get locked, and that nearly always is because people cant stick to the topic. The same people everytime...

[Brillopad]

:nono: now, I'm watching you, mischief in chief


Marsh, I'd leave it until children go to bed

But then poor Marsh will have no one to play with!

[Brillopad]

I do see your point, but some literally come on to thread, ignore the topic entirely, and start to talk about themselves or other forum members... its a bit hard to ignore, though I do try.

..

Of course you do - like a fish to water!

[Marsh.]

:nono: now, I'm watching you, mischief in chief


Marsh, I'd leave it until children go to bed

Oh I will. I grew up with loads of siblings, nephews and cousins.

Kids get bored when they realise how pointless their behaviour is.

[Vicky.]

:joker:

I'm going to bump my earlier suggestion of splitting Cherie's and Niamh's posts into a seperate thread that's specifically for Self ID discussion because I think it was a good one then and an even better one now!! :laugh:

I think having a thread about self-ID is a good idea. I am not sure splitting off posts from this thread would make too much sense though

Either way, closing this, for the third time now. As its gone the way of many other threads. On the second closure I said if it was closed a third time then it would probably remain closed. I stand by that tbh as it seems to have ran its course now anyway