The Chase's Anne Hegerty branded 'transphobic'

[Niamh.]

Thoughts on this?


The Chase's Anne Hegerty branded 'transphobic' after toe-curling spat

THE Governess, who appeared in The Wright Stuff yesterday, landed herself in hot water when she made a controversial comment.

Viewers of the Channel 5 show were left fuming after it appeared Anne Hegerty, who made herself a household name on ITV's The Chase, made a barbed comment towards fellow panellist, transgender campaigner Paris Lees.

During a heated debate on the show, chaired by Matthew Wright, the pair went head-to-head over the existence of the gender pay gap.

Former journalist Anne, 59, said she believed that if women wanted leadership roles "they should be the ones going out and getting them".

"I don't believe there's a group of men saying there's too many women on panels."

Paris, however, questioned Anne's beliefs, asking: "So you don't believe there's an old boys club at the top?"

Anne shot back: "Well, you used to be a boy, you would know."

Her comment was followed by a frosty silence in the studio, as the debate swiftly moved on.

Viewers flocked to Twitter to call out Anne, who has earned the nickname "Frosty Knickers" for her cold demeanour from Bradley Walsh, over her offensive comment.

"It was transphobic of Anne to throw Paris's born gender in her face like that. She also did it to shut her up. It was rude," slammed one viewer.

"Wow, that was disgusting," said another.

"Anne Hegerty's put-down of Paris really shocked me. I am really surprised everyone just took it?" a third tweeted.

A fourth said: "I am appalled by Anne's off the cuff crass remark. Well done for rising above it, Paris."

Paris told the Sun after the incident: "I was so shocked, I was processing it. I didn't make a big deal out if it. I love the show and Matthew, and I;m sure Anne didn't mean to be malicious.

"I hope she didn't mean it to come across the way it did."

A rep for Anne has ben contacted for comment.

[bots]

I think she was right. We cant deny our past ever existed :shrug:

[Kazanne]

I saw that yesterday, I thought Anne was joking,It didn't come across as malicious to me,maybe I missed something:shrug:

[Niamh.]

I think she was right. We cant deny our past ever existed :shrug:

If you watch the video and it does come across as quite rude tbf, I was of the opinion before watching the video that it was probably relevant to what they were discussing and it is relevant in a way but the way she said it seemed more snappy and not matter fact or a point in her argument. Regardless though I don't think she should be dropped from the show for stating a fact either

[user104658]

If you watch the video and it does come across as quite rude tbf, I was of the opinion before watching the video that it was probably relevant to what they were discussing and it is relevant in a way but the way she said it seemed more snappy and not matter fact or a point in her argument. Regardless though I don't think she should be dropped from the show for stating a fact eitherIt's not really a fact though, because it was a whole statement not just "you used to be a boy".

Saying "you used to be a boy so you should know" is obviously not "a fact"... It's utter nonsense... It doesn't even make sense. "You used to be male so you should be an expert on patriarchy!" :umm2:

So basically, transphobic or not, it is 100% strawman and clearly intended to be cutting / offensive, rather than having anything to do with what was being debated.

[Niamh.]

It's not really a fact though, because it was a whole statement not just "you used to be a boy".

Saying "you used to be a boy so you should know" is obviously not "a fact"... It's utter nonsense... It doesn't even make sense. "You used to be male so you should be an expert on patriarchy!" :umm2:

So basically, transphobic or not, it is 100% strawman and clearly intended to be cutting / offensive, rather than having anything to do with what was being debated.

Well yeah that's basically what I said in my post though :suspect: The part of the what she said that caused offense was the You used to be a boy bit and that is a fact.

[Beso]

Is it any worse than bradley walshs nickname for her?

[Oliver_W]

She said "used to be a boy", not "you're really a man". Obviously having been a probably somewhat effeminate boy before transition doesn't make Paris an expert on the "patriarchy" so it's a bit null, but she was a boy.

[Rob!]

It’s worth pointing out I think that she has aspergers, so probably does have moments where she’s unnecessarily blunt in life.

[Cherie]

It's the sort of off the cuff blunt comment she comes out with on the Chase, storm in a teacup

[Brillopad]

If you watch the video and it does come across as quite rude tbf, I was of the opinion before watching the video that it was probably relevant to what they were discussing and it is relevant in a way but the way she said it seemed more snappy and not matter fact or a point in her argument. Regardless though I don't think she should be dropped from the show for stating a fact either

She is entitled to her opinions. It isn't for anyone to PC her.

[Saph]

:laugh2: mess

I dont think she would have meant it in that way though

[Greg!]

Just a misjudged off the cuff remark. Not trying to sound like the annoying anti-PC brigade but people need to stop looking for things to be offended by.

[Rob!]

India to go on The Chase Celebrity and scalp ha?

[user104658]

Well yeah that's basically what I said in my post though :suspect: The part of the what she said that caused offense was the You used to be a boy bit and that is a fact.Well yes, but that's only relevant if we're saying that "anything true is fine" and no one should be fired from a show for saying anything so long as it's true.

I mean, I can't imagine that someone who said "You are fat and have a huge nose and your breath smells like actual dog ****" to a guest would get to keep their job just because all of those things happened to be factually accurate :think:.

Basically I think if someone says something with the obvious INTENT of causing upset, then it doesn't really matter whether or not it's "just a fact". In fact, often it's worse if it IS the truth.

Tl;Dr preying on someone's insecurities to deliberately upset them isn't OK just because the thing they're insecure about is true.

[Jordan.]

We still love her

[Rob!]

"You used to be a boy" is the sort of blatant fact that Aspergers people will just come out with though. I doubt it would have even occured to Anne that she was being offensive tbh

[DemolitionRed]

She is entitled to her opinions. It isn't for anyone to PC her.

Its got nothing to do with PC and all to do with trying to publicly embarrass someone and put them down in front of a wide audience.

Similar comments that would hurt someone:
"You should know, you used to be a slut"
"You should know, you have a criminal record"
"You should know, your'e only a cleaner"

Making comments or holding back on comments like like that aren't about PC, they are about being kind or unkind. A kind person simply wouldn't have made a comment like that.

[Niamh.]

Well yes, but that's only relevant if we're saying that "anything true is fine" and no one should be fired from a show for saying anything so long as it's true.

I mean, I can't imagine that someone who said "You are fat and have a huge nose and your breath smells like actual dog ****" to a guest would get to keep their job just because all of those things happened to be factually accurate :think:.

Basically I think if someone says something with the obvious INTENT of causing upset, then it doesn't really matter whether or not it's "just a fact". In fact, often it's worse if it IS the truth.

Tl;Dr preying on someone's insecurities to deliberately upset them isn't OK just because the thing they're insecure about is true.

fair enough, I see your point.

[Beso]

Its got nothing to do with PC and all to do with trying to publicly embarrass someone and put them down in front of a wide audience.

Similar comments that would hurt someone:
"You should know, you used to be a slut"
"You should know, you have a criminal record"
"You should know, your'e only a cleaner"

Making comments or holding back on comments like like that aren't about PC, they are about being kind or unkind. A kind person simply wouldn't have made a comment like that.

Like rob says, she has aspergers, are you saying there are no kind aspergers sufferers out there?

[Vicky.]

It was rude and pretty unnecessary.

But Ann is Autistic, and as such is likely to have issues understanding the way we are supposed to effectively LIE when it comes to transpeople :shrug:

And Paris did grown up as a boy.

[DemolitionRed]

Like rob says, she has aspergers, are you saying there are no kind aspergers sufferers out there?

If she has Aspergers then I'm not surprised she made a comment like that.

[Mystic Mock]

She is entitled to her opinions. It isn't for anyone to PC her.

And people have the right to question her on her opinions.

[Tom4784]

Like rob says, she has aspergers, are you saying there are no kind aspergers sufferers out there?

What a ridiculous reach.

Anne doesn't represent everyone with Aspergers and guess what? People with Aspergers can be arseholes regardless of their condition. She didn't say it as a blunt fact, she said it to be rude because she was losing the argument

That being said, I don't think what she said was particularly transphobic, she was being an arsehole but I wouldn't say she's transphobic just based on that.

[arista]

"Anne shot back: "Well, you used to be a boy, you would know."

Her comment was followed by a frosty silence in the studio, as the debate swiftly moved on."


Yes it was a nasty response
I thought Matt Wright
would say something.


Anne Hegerty
has autism etc.
It was a feature on another day when she was on.


Today's show at 10:24AM
Guest Presenter Ann Diamond
pointed out the comment
and said Sorry.

[Jamie89]

Basically I think if someone says something with the obvious INTENT of causing upset, then it doesn't really matter whether or not it's "just a fact". In fact, often it's worse if it IS the truth.

Tl;Dr preying on someone's insecurities to deliberately upset them isn't OK just because the thing they're insecure about is true.

What a ridiculous reach.

Anne doesn't represent everyone with Aspergers and guess what? People with Aspergers can be arseholes regardless of their condition. She didn't say it as a blunt fact, she said it to be rude because she was losing the argument

That being said, I don't think what she said was particularly transphobic, she was being an arsehole but I wouldn't say she's transphobic just based on that.

My thoughts exactly.

edited to add, I don't think she should actually lose her job over it though. I do think she was trying to shut down Paris and it was very rude and unnecessary, but her judgement over choosing to say it/knowing how hurtful it might be, was most likely affected by her aspergers, so the show should show leniency.

She is entitled to her opinions. It isn't for anyone to PC her.

Although she only said it in the first place because she was trying to shut down Paris' opinion because it opposed hers.

[user104658]

It was rude and pretty unnecessary.

But Ann is Autistic, and as such is likely to have issues understanding the way we are supposed to effectively LIE when it comes to transpeople :shrug:

And Paris did grown up as a boy.Having autism could lead her to be blunt about it in an outright factual way; e.g. Let's say the conversation was about... The hazards of using a urinal, or catching your willy in your fly zip, an autistic person might say "Oh but you'll understand because you used to be male and had a penis" without thinking or realising that that might "cause offence". That's one thing.

Suggesting that someone should "know all about the old boy's club" because they "used to be a boy" is nothing more than a deliberate jibe

[Vicky.]

Having autism could lead her to be blunt about it in an outright factual way; e.g. Let's say the conversation was about... The hazards of using a urinal, or catching your willy in your fly zip, an autistic person might say "Oh but you'll understand because you used to be male and had a penis" without thinking or realising that that might "cause offence". That's one thing.

Suggesting that someone should "know all about the old boy's club" because they "used to be a boy" is nothing more than a deliberate jibe

Oh I get the 'you would know about old boys club as you are male' is pretty nonsensical.

But this she is transphobic as she acknowledges that Paris is male rather than politely lying about it and pretending that transwomen were always girls and such as we are apparently supposed to do...well thats likely to be Aspergers

Was an attempt at a snide comment. Which tbf, is pretty much what shes known for. So the reaction and demanding she is sacked and such is pretty stupid

I reckon if she had been talking to a normal bloke who had said the same stuff, she would have said 'oh well you are male, you would know' or whatever. Kind of glad she did not actually say this to paris, as even though paris is male, it would have caused MUCH more hell on than 'you used to be male' :laugh:

[Kizzy]

I say that was fair comment.

[Marsh.]

I think she was right. We cant deny our past ever existed :shrug:

Well whether or not that she's right that she "used to be a boy". It wasn't relevant or appropriate to the discussion.

[Marsh.]

She said "used to be a boy", not "you're really a man". Obviously having been a probably somewhat effeminate boy before transition doesn't make Paris an expert on the "patriarchy" so it's a bit null, but she was a boy.

Nobody said it made her an expert though?

Ann, however, made out that because she "used to be a boy" it somehow invalidated her opinion? :shrug:

[Marsh.]

"You used to be a boy" is the sort of blatant fact that Aspergers people will just come out with though. I doubt it would have even occured to Anne that she was being offensive tbh

If she just randomly said to her "you used to be a boy" then it would be a bit "Oh, ok thanks for that" but she said it as though to shut down the other one's opinion.

I don't feel it was transphobic in anyway whatsoever but it didn't put Anne and her debating skills in a good light at all.

It would be like debating nose piercings in schools and then one guest randomly says "Well you have a big fat CONK so you would know". It might be factual but it's also irrelevant to what they were talking about. :laugh:

[Marsh.]

She is entitled to her opinions. It isn't for anyone to PC her.

And everyone else has a right to discuss it. It's isn't for you to PC them.

[LaLaLand]

Anne is savage!!

[Ammi]

...there are varying degrees of Aspergers...so it’s hard to say if it was meant ‘to close down’...or just her ‘logical’ thought pattern of...well you have spent time as a ‘boy’, so you would know ‘boy’s clubs’ etc...Aspergers don’t have thoughts of, oh that was offensive or hurtful or anything...the syndrome doesn’t ‘sense’ feelings or diplomacy in the same way as others who aren’t Aspergers...in childhood though, or through childhood when diagnosed...many ‘skills’ are learned...which enable things like that to be said less in adulthood...but then, that would also depend on when in her life she was diagnosed and how much help she got with those ‘skills’...because that’s more a fairly recent thing, so maybe not so much of ‘her time’...so yeah, it’s hard to say, even in watching it...oooops though...

[Ammi]

Anne is savage!!

...yeah she is, Jonnie.:laugh:...I have to say I haven’t watched The Chase that much...but just looking at the vid just now, I watched her Chase with Ann Widdecombe....a small clip....and she’s definately a ‘match’ for Anne...:laugh:...

[Ammi]

If she just randomly said to her "you used to be a boy" then it would be a bit "Oh, ok thanks for that" but she said it as though to shut down the other one's opinion.

I don't feel it was transphobic in anyway whatsoever but it didn't put Anne and her debating skills in a good light at all.

It would be like debating nose piercings in schools and then one guest randomly says "Well you have a big fat CONK so you would know". It might be factual but it's also irrelevant to what they were talking about. :laugh:

..that’s the thing though, Marsh...(..obviously it can’t be completely generalised because some Aspergers do have excellent debating skills..)...but ‘debating skills’ is not something generally associated with Aspergers...so yeah, those skills were not shown in a good light...because for her it would be more..a quick, sharp, ‘truth’.../type response and thought...the ‘strength’ that’s more ‘typical’ and would be shown in The Chase as a chaser, something she excels at I believe...a little cynic in me feels, well they would know that in having her as a guest on a debate show...and maybe hoping for a ‘controversial’ remark...and hey, we’re back in the news, guys...Anne did that, that’s what we hoped for...she didn’t let us down...Oooops...

[Brillopad]

And everyone else has a right to discuss it. It's isn't for you to PC them.

Slag her off you mean.

[Withano]

***** thing to say, but I doubt she meant it to be that way. Just a woman knowing that shes losing a debate so resulted to desperate petty playground tactics. See it happen a lot here.

[Marsh.]

Slag her off you mean.
From your perspective.

Never fails to amaze me how you bleat about this forum apparently trying to shut you down and now allow you to have your opinion whilst simultaneously telling everyone else how they're not allowed an opinion.

Hypocrite.

[Brillopad]

From your perspective.

Never fails to amaze me how you bleat about this forum apparently trying to shut you down and now allow you to have your opinion whilst simultaneously telling everyone else how they're not allowed an opinion.

Hypocrite.

If so I’m in the right place as the forum is full of them. Takes on to know one.

[jaxie]

People with autism of which asbergers is a condition are different, and there are wildly varying levels of different from not being able to communicate at all to very intelligent communicative skills. They can be cherubs or quite physically violent. However some things are a bit of a trend of the condition, they see the world differently, can be socially and emotionally awkward and don't have the same filters as other people. I spent a few years working with autistic children and what Anne said was pretty typical asbergers in my view. Just a blunt statement of the obvious.

It isn't transphobic to state the obvious and anyone offended by that really needs to grow a thicker skin.

[Jamie89]

People with autism of which asbergers is a condition are different, and there are wildly varying levels of different from not being able to communicate at all to very intelligent communicative skills. They can be cherubs or quite physically violent. However some things are a bit of a trend of the condition, they see the world differently, can be socially and emotionally awkward and don't have the same filters as other people. I spent a few years working with autistic children and what Anne said was pretty typical asbergers in my view. Just a blunt statement of the obvious.

It isn't transphobic to state the obvious and anyone offended by that really needs to grow a thicker skin.

I agree she probably wasn't meaning to be transphobic, when I first watched it I didn't know she has aspergers so I thought she was just being cruel, but watching it knowing I doubt that was the case. But regarding the bit in bold I think it's also understandable that trans people might be offended. They can't control their gender dysphoria much like Anne can't control her aspergers and comments like that would most likely trigger it so I don't think it's really a case of them just needing a thicker skin to be fair.

[jaxie]

I agree she probably wasn't meaning to be transphobic, when I first watched it I didn't know she has aspergers so I thought she was just being cruel, but watching it knowing I doubt that was the case. But regarding the bit in bold I think it's also understandable that trans people might be offended. They can't control their gender dysphoria much like Anne can't control her aspergers and comments like that would most likely trigger it so I don't think it's really a case of them just needing a thicker skin to be fair.

I think it has a lot to do with growing a thicker skin tbh. Just like you say they can't control their condition, they also cannot control others perceptions of them which stands just as much for someone on the autism spectrum as for someone who wants to be a different sex. Other people will not understand, will find it weird, in both cases and unless they accept that they will find a great deal of unhappiness. You cannot force people to see you how you want to be seen so you have to accept that is life and get on with it without butthurt drams every time someone says something unpleasant to you.

I have a friend who has a weight problem and she has been the victim of nasty remarks in public many times. A lot nastier than someone noting you used to be a boy. She can't control other people either. So she's had to grow a thicker skin too.

[DemolitionRed]

We don't get to decide what should or shouldn't affect another person. I've never been able to work out what a "thicker skin" even means! Does it mean we can't be offended or hurt anymore? That our world will turn to a much happier place because we won't be exposed or put on the spot? Does it mean we are not allowed to care? Is being sensitive the opposite of being strong?

[Maru]

I don't understand why this is news. (Not panning you Nom, just why these always circulate in the media) The comment was obviously meant to be cutting... but I don't see why then magnify it beyond the level of what it actually warrants? I don't think society is that fragile? Whether she meant it in truth or out of medical, would feel irrelevant to me and somewhat inappropriate to the target of the comment... because it wouldn't invalidate the problematic nature of that commentary and obviously her hurt feelings if any existed...

She didn't respond, so apparently she didn't think it worth that much to make a big scene over it... I think more power to her for rising above it. But why the media needs to amplify every small case of stupiditis, I will never get... it feels like we're rewarding it by putting a bright yellow sticker next to it and giving it a national platform. Must have been a boring episode if this was the only thing worth commenting on...

[user104658]

I don't understand why this is news. (Not panning you Nom, just why these always circulate in the media) The comment was obviously meant to be cutting... but I don't see why then magnify it beyond the level of what it actually warrants? I don't think society is that fragile? Whether she meant it in truth or out of medical, would feel irrelevant to me and somewhat inappropriate to the target of the comment... because it wouldn't invalidate the problematic nature of that commentary and obviously her hurt feelings if any existed...

She didn't respond, so apparently she didn't think it worth that much to make a big scene over it... I think more power to her for rising above it. But why the media needs to amplify every small case of stupiditis, I will never get... it feels like we're rewarding it by putting a bright yellow sticker next to it and giving it a national platform. Must have been a boring episode if this was the only thing worth commenting on...

"Because it sells". The answer to why the media does anything.

"Outrage and indignation" is big business.

[Jamie89]

I think it has a lot to do with growing a thicker skin tbh. Just like you say they can't control their condition, they also cannot control others perceptions of them which stands just as much for someone on the autism spectrum as for someone who wants to be a different sex. Other people will not understand, will find it weird, in both cases and unless they accept that they will find a great deal of unhappiness. You cannot force people to see you how you want to be seen so you have to accept that is life and get on with it without butthurt drams every time someone says something unpleasant to you.

I have a friend who has a weight problem and she has been the victim of nasty remarks in public many times. A lot nastier than someone noting you used to be a boy. She can't control other people either. So she's had to grow a thicker skin too.

I don't doubt they'd be a lot happier if they didn't suffer from it but I'm just saying that having a mental disorder like gender dysphoria isn't their fault and if it is triggered I don't think they can really be blamed for that .We don't tell people with depression to 'just cheer up' much in the same way as a person can't really be told not to feel dysphoric, it sets it apart from everyday comments/criticisms we all get that might offend us for whatever reason where toughening up could be beneficial. Or like your friend for example with the weight problems, I don't know if she suffers from an eating disorder but people who do would be far less able to cope well with comments about their weight because that inability to cope is directly linked to a mental disorder, compared to somebody who has weight problems but no associated mental condition.

[bots]

Its fine for an individual to be offended by someone or something, and everyone's threshold for taking offence is different, so no problem there. The problem I have is with people taking offence on others behalf when its just not necessary. If i was down the pub or at the cinema and I got offended about something, i wouldn't go round everyone there asking for their support and for them to be offended too. It makes no sense. So why does it become acceptable online or in the media? It's just plain daft.

[Maru]

"Because it sells". The answer to why the media does anything.

"Outrage and indignation" is big business.

Oh yes and the fast food and carbonated beverage industry are big business... all terrible things for our well-being, but very addicting. :laugh: We don't know even notice what we are doing it to ourselves...

[y.winter]

I wouldn't say transphobic as there was nothing "phobic" against trans.
While it wasn't the best of statements from Anne (and I don't know much about her) - She did use to be a boy (not an opinion), for the sake of the argument she was "on the other side" like women might base their argument on being on the discriminated side.
Was it necessary or meant to support a serious debate about these things? there wasn't much of a thought behind it. People say stuff...
If it's a discussion about gender issues - Anne brings the fact of being herself a woman, like Paris bringing the fact that she's a transwoman to the table (and it's something that India has discussed on CBB21 - changing sides from the "oppressive" gender to the "oppressed" gender, which is a valid point).

[Kizzy]

It comes to something doesn't it when women are immediately oppressive as soon as a man says 'I'm a woman now'... no, you're not.

[chuff me dizzy]

I dont think she said anything wrong :conf:

[Northern Monkey]

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

[Kizzy]

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

:hehe:

[DemolitionRed]

I think this person of trans origin should stop being such a snowflake and grow some balls.Take it on the chin.
I don’t think old Frosty Drawers meant any harm.

Bwaahaaaa I spit my coffee!

[user104658]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? :think: Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

[DemolitionRed]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? :think: Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

You're braver than me for saying this but I have to agree with you. Some of the things that have been said about trans people on here recently are quite depressing.

[Maru]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? :think: Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

A moderator's role though is not really to play thought police, which is what we are getting into when we are starting to hand select what is "unacceptable" conversation versus what isn't. It should only be to manage discussions so that they topics don't fall entirely apart and to moderate for obvious baiting and incendiary behavior. SD is a boiler room, and I think that that will never change. The goal should be to moderate as little as possible. (anything else is "curation"). And sometimes less is done of what is needed because of the thin line between censorship and guiding discussion... otherwise it'll turn into a cliquey turf war.

I'm still for creating a relationships/LGBT/humanities section, as I think this forum really needs it. It will help alleviate the pressure I think. In which case, I nominate Jamie89 for President of said section.

[Withano]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? :think: Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

I agree with the first paragraph, I'm not sure if its the mods' personal prejudices though - its just a lack of consistency.

Its like theres some sort of heirachy. You can be a little bit transphobic or islamophobic, just no sexism or homophobia.. racism is somewhere in the middle. Idgi either.

[smudgie]

It's all this "Branding" that gets on my tits.:fist:
Everything has to be have a label, be a this or a that.

[Marsh.]

If so I’m in the right place as the forum is full of them. Takes on to know one.

Grow up.

[Marsh.]

..that’s the thing though, Marsh...(..obviously it can’t be completely generalised because some Aspergers do have excellent debating skills..)...but ‘debating skills’ is not something generally associated with Aspergers...so yeah, those skills were not shown in a good light...because for her it would be more..a quick, sharp, ‘truth’.../type response and thought...the ‘strength’ that’s more ‘typical’ and would be shown in The Chase as a chaser, something she excels at I believe...a little cynic in me feels, well they would know that in having her as a guest on a debate show...and maybe hoping for a ‘controversial’ remark...and hey, we’re back in the news, guys...Anne did that, that’s what we hoped for...she didn’t let us down...Oooops...

Absolutely.

The Wright Stuff is horrible in that sense. Like last week when they were goading Iain Lee about his personal life after he specifically asked them beforehand he wasn't there to talk about it. The media can be a vile cesspit.

[Brillopad]

Grow up.

When you do. :shrug:

[Marsh.]

I wouldn't say transphobic as there was nothing "phobic" against trans.
While it wasn't the best of statements from Anne (and I don't know much about her) - She did use to be a boy (not an opinion), for the sake of the argument she was "on the other side" like women might base their argument on being on the discriminated side.
Was it necessary or meant to support a serious debate about these things? there wasn't much of a thought behind it. People say stuff...
If it's a discussion about gender issues - Anne brings the fact of being herself a woman, like Paris bringing the fact that she's a transwoman to the table (and it's something that India has discussed on CBB21 - changing sides from the "oppressive" gender to the "oppressed" gender, which is a valid point).

She didn't say it as though to say "You used to be a boy, you weren't always on the oppressed gender" she said it as though as a boy she would know all about the "boy's club" (ie. the patriarchy) as though every male is the enemy. :laugh:

[Kizzy]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? :think: Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

What... Where

Where are they the accepted targets of vitriol on here?
Exactly what would be so unacceptable, if you take issue with a comment quote it then it might highlight any discrepancy that's been overlooked by every moderator and the rest of the forum.

[Matthew.]

not necessarily transphobic, just an ill-timed comment and i certainly don’t think she meant any malice by it.

as previously said, anne has aspergers syndrome. so she sometimes doesn’t think before speaking. transphobic is not the right word here.

[user104658]

It comes to something doesn't it when women are immediately oppressive as soon as a man says 'I'm a woman now'... no, you're not.

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

[Marsh.]

When you do. :shrug:

So childish.

[Kizzy]

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

What a surprise... If you have an issue in the future just quote me don't be making out the whole forum has some kind of prejudice because you have taken exception to one comment.

There isn't anger from me, I have said many times personally I don't believe blokes can be women...female yes, women no.

I don't know how you can equate an opinion on transpeople to that of any other topic such as racism the two are not even nearly comparable.
I'll go further and refer you back to a comment you made on gaming... do you remember that conversation when you suggested I wasn't qualified to have an opinion on games or gaming?.... I'll find it if needs be.

I'm wondering now, if I didn't have the relevant experience to participate in that discussion then what credentials do you have to suggest that my opinion on this topic, that I have a lifetime of experience in to be 'wrong'?

[Marsh.]

Thinking someone can't hold an educated opinion on something because of a lack of understanding/research on something is different to saying they can't understand something because of their genitalia.

That's the difference between TS' stance that you weren't "qualified" to fully have an opinion on that games debate versus Anne insinuating this other woman couldn't hold an opinion simply because she used to have a penis I would imagine.

And before I get pushed into a corner and threatened with my life, that's just my understanding of the situation. :nono:

[DemolitionRed]

Being close to someone who is trans female to male, I know how hurt he (and yes he is a 'he') would be if someone said to him, "you should know, you were once female" especially if that comment was in front of a public audience. Knowing how desperate he was to become a male (though he's not completely re-assigned yet). The hysterectomy, the mastectomy, the hormone regime and the coming out I feel for him every time I hear people mocking transgenders on here.
For him its somewhat easier because as his hips fell away and his beard grew, his voice deepened and his whole persona took on a very muscular appearance. For men who transition its much more difficult. The voice often remains deep, the Adams still protrudes, the facial features often look masculine and the hips don't grow and I think because of all those things they are less accepted. They are still seen as a c**k in a frock and people don't take them seriously.

I hate to hear a trans woman being called a 'he' because that's not what she is. Every time I hear someone saying that I think of the trans guy I know and how he would feel if someone insisted on calling him 'she'. It works both ways.

[michael21]

Well she old and she called Ann

[Kizzy]

Thinking someone can't hold an educated opinion on something because of a lack of understanding/research on something is different to saying they can't understand something because of their genitalia.

That's the difference between TS' stance that you weren't "qualified" to fully have an opinion on that games debate versus Anne insinuating this other woman couldn't hold an opinion simply because she used to have a penis I would imagine.

And before I get pushed into a corner and threatened with my life, that's just my understanding of the situation. :nono:

Right now I'm less interested in Annes take on things and more interested why my take on this subject is being labeled 'vitriol' :/

[Kizzy]

Being close to someone who is trans female to male, I know how hurt he (and yes he is a 'he') would be if someone said to him, "you should know, you were once female" especially if that comment was in front of a public audience. Knowing how desperate he was to become a male (though he's not completely re-assigned yet). The hysterectomy, the mastectomy, the hormone regime and the coming out I feel for him every time I hear people mocking transgenders on here.
For him its somewhat easier because as his hips fell away and his beard grew, his voice deepened and his whole persona took on a very muscular appearance. For men who transition its much more difficult. The voice often remains deep, the Adams still protrudes, the facial features often look masculine and the hips don't grow and I think because of all those things they are less accepted. They are still seen as a c**k in a frock and people don't take them seriously.

I hate to hear a trans woman being called a 'he' because that's not what she is. Every time I hear someone saying that I think of the trans guy I know and how he would feel if someone insisted on calling him 'she'. It works both ways.

DR I think you're preaching to the converted somewhat here, I would say that 99% of the forum and for certain me personally am very sympathetic to M/F or F/M transitions.

I have to say though that as upsetting as it was the fact was they were once a different gender... and as such will have had experiences that they could draw on for comment in relation to that.
Which to my mind is more or less what happened here, they didn't die and get reborn they transitioned, the memory of socialisation, patriarchy and peer pressure is still all there to relate to isn't it?

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.

[Marsh.]

Right now I'm less interested in Annes take on things and more interested why my take on this subject is being labeled 'vitriol' :/

I don't think he does.

He's wondering why what he sees as transphobia is routinely accepted on the forum and everything else (sexism, homophobia etc) are, rightly, cracked down on.

[Marsh.]

Well she old and she called Ann

She's younger than Ann you silly boy.

[Withano]

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

[michael21]

She's younger than Ann you silly boy.

So is big ben

[user104658]

What a surprise... If you have an issue in the future just quote me don't be making out the whole forum has some kind of prejudice because you have taken exception to one comment.

There isn't anger from me, I have said many times personally I don't believe blokes can be women...female yes, women no.

I don't know how you can equate an opinion on transpeople to that of any other topic such as racism the two are not even nearly comparable.
I'll go further and refer you back to a comment you made on gaming... do you remember that conversation when you suggested I wasn't qualified to have an opinion on games or gaming?.... I'll find it if needs be.

I'm wondering now, if I didn't have the relevant experience to participate in that discussion then what credentials do you have to suggest that my opinion on this topic, that I have a lifetime of experience in to be 'wrong'?

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".

[michael21]

Why are you attempting to speak for someone else?...

I'll wait to see what he says thanks.

That right Kizzy you tell him

[Kizzy]

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".

You also quoted me and mentioned Niamh.. As you pointed out there is enough prejudice on this forum already without your unnecessary accusatory comments.

[Mokka]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? :think: Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

[Brillopad]

So childish.

Yes you are!

[Alf]

You know... I'm not going to say that it isn't a topic that needs to be up for debate - but I have to say, it sort of seems like trans people are becoming the "accepted targets of vitriol", and I've noticed it especially on here.

Is that not worrying to anyone else? :think: Several of the posts on this thread would not be accepted if they were directed at any other group and - let's call a spade a spade here - that's almost entirely down the the moderator's personal opinions and prejudices. Sort it out, guys. Some sort of consistency.Well then stop putting people in groups, and start treating people as individuals, and treat each case on their own merit.

[Marsh.]

That right Kizzy you tell him

Yes you are!

This is serious debates, kids, go to bed.

[Marsh.]

Well then stop putting people in groups, and start treating people as individuals, and treat each case on their own merit.

A nonsense post. He isn't putting people into groups, he's talking about comments targeted towards people who share a common trait. Whether that be of a certain colour, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc.

That's not grouping people. If a comment ridicules black people for example, then it's disparaging to everyone who is black not just an individual.

[Alf]

A nonsense post. He isn't putting people into groups, he's talking about comments targeted towards people who share a common trait. Whether that be of a certain colour, gender, race, religion, sexuality etc.

That's not grouping people. If a comment ridicules black people for example, then it's disparaging to everyone who is black not just an individual.Please don't disagree with me, my feelings are hurt when you do that, you're committing a hate crime by hurting my feelings, I feel like you're ridiculing me by not agreeing with me.

I'm only kidding, I ain't a con man.

[Ammi]

...so this escalated quickly and with a very ‘dark’ tone...let me re-read because I don’t understand, TS...(..and that’s quite unusual because you’re someone who expresses things very well..)...but I’m struggling a bit with this, with what you’re saying...

[Ammi]

Don't be so self-important Kizzy; I quite explicitly stated that Vicky "is the worst for it".

..but how is Kizzy being ‘self important’...when her post was specifically quoted as ‘exhibit A’, to highlight your thoughts...to respond to that isn’t being ‘self-important’...you said that you explicitly stated that another member ‘was the worst’...but it wasn’t that member’s post or posts if you feel there were multiples...that you gave as ‘an example’ of your concerns..

[Ammi]

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

...’I am perfectly willing to agree that it’s open for reasonable, considered debate..that my main concern is consistency’...apologies, I struggle to bold with this device, TS...but I really am confused..because you’ve said Vicky is ‘the worst’...but that this topic is open for considered debate...yet you’ve interacted with Vicky in the thread so far as I can see...and didn’t express any concerns you’ve just stated...in your interactions, if concerns were being felt...was that not the perfect opportunity and opening for reasonable and considered debate...but you didn’t pursue it with that opening..?...and if you feel that Vicky ‘is the worst’...then surely there’s consistency...because if there wasn’t consistency then a ‘worst’ couldn’t be felt..?....

[Ammi]

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

...I don’t feel there is mocking about ‘blokes pretending to be women’...quite clear anger, yes I would agree...but (...from my perspective of any recently related thread../..topic..)...that anger, or fear I should maybe say...has been quite specific of possible vulnerabilities ...the fear of creating an opening if someone was able to ‘identify as’...with ‘self-declaration’...when there has been no transitioning..?...hmmm, I may not agree with Vicky in all areas, but her concerns are understandable and very valid also...so surely expressing those concerns can’t be deemed in any way as ‘phobic’....otherwise we all silence ourselves..:laugh:...and surely there have been some debates in parliament when discussing legislations on ‘self-declaration’...because others have the same concerns as Vicky....and progression would never be a possibility if these concerns were not expressed and discussed...but you haven’t discussed them though TS, you’ve condemned them ....which is confusing....

[Maru]

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

I accept this is your view, so I see no argument there. But as far I'm aware, there are no protected "groups" on TiBB. Most stuff that I've seen deleted (and a lot doesn't...), it's caustic or problematic commentary meant to cause a row or derail a thread. Unless certain opinions are being policed... in which case, that is simply wrong.


On topic, with regards to transgender vitriol, in my own opinion it's something that does fly under the radar quite easily, but I don't immediately connect this with anger or hate against transgender folk (depends on the person or their commentary). I tend to think it's because many folk still view transgenderism in general as a mental illness and mockery and caustic language (prejudicial treatment) towards mental illness has always been accepted criticism of someone in our society. It's OK to call someone a looney, a bunny boiler, a pathetic drug addict, etc, if their behavior is deemed to be down to some sort of personal defect, especially if it is mental or emotional. This isn't handled particularly well in the media either and it is certainly not handled all that well sometimes even in SD. So it's no surprise that transgenderism has been affected by this stigma since it currently is casting a big shadow over the grey area that lies between mental illness or actual cultural phenomenon in present popular discourse... Some mental illnesses also occupy these grey areas.

For example, when we are talking about what is "wrong" with someone, it's generally considered acceptable discourse to include mental impairments as a way to screen their behavior for other moral or personal defects related to their personhood... for example, Donald Trump and the case for him having NPD... while the media does generally cover what he is doing, they're more often obsessively focused on his more tedious behavior(s) and treating him like a monkey in a cage in need a rubber room.. and though there is validity to connecting his behavior and outbursts with NPD (there is a strong case there I think), they actively search for his mental impairments in order to make other cases for classifying his behavior as signs of serious mental impairment.. when no one, including psychologists breaking their ethics to speak on his mental state, are in any position to even diagnose or treat him. That's an uncomfortable line being crossed for me and is being crossed more and more each day the more we bring social media into the mainstream. The more silly stuff that gets said, the more the media can dig up in other people's timelines in order to play out some cynical fantasy about other people's supposed deviant behavior.

We kind of saw some of this same "fair play" with the Aspergers discussion. Except it was used in such a way to somehow make light of fairly insensitive commentary. It doesn't matter what their mental illness is, imo, if their behavior is terrible, then it is what that is... and just the same, if someone is suffering from dysphoria and acts like a general fool on public television (India), then those same variables can't then be summoned at will as a convenient shield at very particular times to protect themselves from criticism. They have a condition or a dysphoria, but that doesn't make the entirity of their personhood. They aren't bestowed additional virtues for having been identified as such. And when we add these additional markers to make a picture of how these people should be seen on basis of labels alone, we actually further stigmatize others who doesn't necessarily share those characteristics under the same umbrella.. which I think does make it much easier for some folk to cast a general blanket over certain disorders in order to validate their own shared experiences... because some sections think by placing these things on a pedestal, we "destigmatize" it. Like the concept of intersectionality, it actually makes it more difficult for those under certain labels to get out from behind them... it doesn't not just lessen the stigmatization, but it maybe even burdens them with uneasy expectations... especially for those who are still struggling and aren't coping well with even any stigma.

This is why when my grandfather lies or says he can't hear us when we're asking him very specific questions, we don't let him use his Schizophrenia or his Senioritis as an excuse to avoid ducking responsibility for his own behavior. Those are conditions that he lives with, but those conditions are not all that we see in him. And people who have had to deal with someone who is prone to this type of dodging, though it may seem harsh, that's sometimes what we have to do to get someone to not only be accountable for their own livelihood but also to get out from behind their labels so that we can see all of who they are... and not just simply treat them as a burden or disruptive element to society.

[Ammi]

...I don’t always agree with Vicky on ‘transsexual topics’ but I do understand her concerns and fears...and her concerns and fears are quite consistent, I feel...there is no inconsistency in them...many seem to come from personal experiences which sadly have been quite negative...which makes them more understandable...so something which is good to express and create openings for discussion...Niamh also understands her concerns and fears, I feel...so is very open to discussion also....


...just specific to the topic and Paris Lees...I’ve just googled her because I wasn’t familiar with her ‘story’...

While in prison Lees decided to change: "I just thought, 'I'm this silly teenage boy in a prison cell who has made a huge mistake and I want to be this happy person'

...so she identified herself as a ‘boy’ with that statement...(..there may be many other statements also, I don’t know..)...but she’s relating aspects of her life...which is basically what Anne did in the ‘debate’ on The Wright Show...saying ‘you where a boy’, so you have understanding of ‘boys clubs’...Paris would have understandings in some aspects of her life from the perspective of ‘male’, which was what Anne was inferring...and Paris is relating one of those very perspectives of her time in prison..?...

...it’s often said about ‘male priveledge’...and I do struggle a bit with that I have to say....just because I don’t feel anyone who has felt ‘incorrectly gendered’ through their lives...would never have felt a sense of ‘priveledge’ to be their society recognised gender through that time in their lives...to be priveledged, you would have to ‘feel’ that priveledge...and to me...that would feel impossible..so the comparisons can’t be made or are hard to be made in the same way with males who do feel completely correctly gendered....because that person has never felt any ‘priveledge’...all they’ve felt is unhappiness and a sense of ‘not fitting’ ...obviously this is just male to female specifically because of the topic of discussion being Anne and Paris...but I do also feel it’s relevant in many discussions to discuss a ‘whole story’ of someone’s life because of the individuality of life stories ..and how specifics have relevance’s to experiences which form opinions and stances etc...as Paris herself has obviously spoken about her specific experiences...obviously how Anne addressed it, didn’t lend to any ‘discussion’ or debate, in her directness and tactlessness...but because if her own ‘story’ of her Aspergers, it’s difficult to say whether her comment was ‘deliberate’ and intended to ‘shut down’....which makes for the interest of this news story also...

[Niamh.]

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

imo the difference between gender and sex is one is biology and the other is a bunch of stereotypes

[Niamh.]

There's one Kizzy. That was easy enough.

Maru: that's why I said A) that I am perfectly willing to agree that it's open for reasonable, considered debate and also B) that my main concern is consistency.

There isn't just a sharing of beliefs when it comes to this topic... There's some quite clear anger, and mocking, when it comes to "blokes pretending to be women" that simply isn't accepted when it comes to other topics and the main reason it's accepted is because Vicky, and to a lesser extent Niamh, the most active SD mods, have (fairly recently) been expressing open cynicism and anger towards the very concept of transsexualism. Frankly, Vicky is more or less the worst for the "blokes in frocks prancing about pretending to be real women!!" type comments.

And like I said, it wouldn't be accepted against other groups. My problem is the double standards.

I think that's extremely unfair tbqh TS and I'm pretty surprised to hear this coming from you especially. Vicky has put her concerns about the subject across in a very well thought out and well read manner, I would say she's probably one of the most open to listening posters in SDs. Just because you don't agree with her POV on this particular subject doesn't mean that her opinions are invalid or phobic, I haven't heard her say something like "oh bloke in a dress lololol" her opinions come from actual concerns for women, whether you agree with that or not

[Brillopad]

This is serious debates, kids, go to bed.

Says one of the biggest kids on here. And you have the nerve to call me a hypocrite. Go away.

[Withano]

imo the difference between gender and sex is one is biology and the other is a bunch of stereotypes

Well yeh, and thats the issue. You're ignoring neural connective patterns, white matter, gray matter, testosterone, estrogen, oxytocin and hippocampus size.. which naturally created the stereotypes you speak of. There's reasons that women and transwomen tend to be more verbal and why men and transmen tend to have poorer memory. The brains are literally different.

Assuming trans people are that way because they fit a stereotype is absurd honestly. Your gender is always in your brain, some people with penis' have a brain more akin to a woman, but some will be midway between, and some would resemble the brain of neither sex. Its just a thing that has always happened, and will always happen.

Nobody is trans just because they like make-up and used to play with dolls. Its the assumption that they are which is transphobic.

[Brillopad]

I think that's extremely unfair tbqh TS and I'm pretty surprised to hear this coming from you especially. Vicky has put her concerns about the subject across in a very well thought out and well read manner, I would say she's probably one the most open to listening posters in SDs. Just because you don't agree with her POV on this particular subject doesn't mean that her opinions are invalid or phobic, I haven't heard her say something like "oh bloke in a dress lololol" her opinions come from actual concerns for women, whether you agree with that or not

I think it obvious many women share vicky’s concerns on this as the reactions of many women over issues such as non-transitioned men using women’s bathrooms, has highlighted.

But TS is not a woman so I question why he thinks he has the right to not only question such concerns that would not affect him personally - but to attach labels to women who have them. The potential risks to women, not men, are obvious.

[Niamh.]

Well yeh, and thats the issue. You're ignoring neural connective patterns, white matter, gray matter, testosterone, estrogen, oxytocin and hippocampus size.. which naturally created the stereotypes you speak of. There's reasons that women and transwomen tend to be more verbal and why men and transmen tend to have poorer memory. The brains are literally different.

Assuming trans people are that way because they fit a stereotype is absurd honestly. Your gender is always in your brain, some people with penis' have a brain more akin to a woman, but some will be midway between, and some would resemble the brain of neither sex. Its just a thing that has always happened, and will always happen.

Nobody is trans just because they like make-up and used to play with dolls. Its the assumption that they are which is transphobic.

I'm not ignoring anything, I just disagree with you. You give an example there of women being more verbal than men, that's a stereotype. I'm not verbal at all irl, Gav is very verbal, does that mean I'm a man and he's a woman? no of course not. Biology and life experience of being treated as a woman because of that biology is what makes a woman a woman and a man a man imo.

[Niamh.]

also if you look up the definition of gender it pretty much says "a bunch of stereotypes"


the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

"traditional concepts of gender"


•the members of one or other sex:

"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"


synonyms: gender

[Withano]

I'm not ignoring anything, I just disagree with you. You give an example there of women being more verbal than men, that's a stereotype. I'm not verbal at all irl, Gav is very verbal, does that mean I'm a man and he's a woman? no of course not. Biology and life experience of being treated as a woman because of that biology is what makes a woman a woman and a man a man imo.

Of course there are exclusions. There are hundreds of differences, that is one of the main ones. Women and transwomen tend to be more verbal than men and transmen on average, because women and transwomen have verbal hemispheres on both sides of the brain, and men and transmen do not. That is not to say that every woman and transwoman uses it very often, but it is there. It exists.
Ie: Gav uses the little he does have excellently, and you use yours less despite having more scattered around your brain (assuming youre both cis).
You can disagree with this undeniable difference if you want, but your refusal to acknowledge these differences are literally scaffolding your less-than-positive reviews of transpeople, and thats a shame.

[Niamh.]

Of course there are exclusions. There are hundreds of differences, that is one of the main ones. Women and transwomen tend to be more verbal than men and transmen on average, because women and transwomen have verbal hemispheres on both sides of the brain, and men and transmen do not. That is not to say that every woman and transwoman uses it very often, but it is there. It exists.
Ie: Gav uses the little he does have excellently, and you use yours less despite having more scattered around your brain (assuming youre both cis).
You can disagree with this undeniable difference if you want, but your refusal to acknowledge these differences are literally scaffolding your less-than-positive reviews of transpeople, and thats a shame.

that word "cis" annoys me too.

I'm pretty sure the whole brain debate is inconclusive actually, you've just chosen to believe the studies that support your POV

[Withano]

that word "cis" annoys me too.

I'm pretty sure the whole brain debate is inconclusive actually, you've just chosen to believe the studies that support your POV

They're not at all inconclusive, they're extremely visibile on fmri scans. Several differences between male and female brains have been recorded, thats just a thing thats 100% guaranteed.

Soz for annoying you with the word cis.

[Niamh.]

They're not at all inconclusive, they're extremely visibile on fmri scans. Several differences between male and female brains have been recorded, thats just a thing thats 100% guaranteed.

Soz for annoying you with the word cis.

They actually are

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/

[Withano]

They actually are

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain/

I'm not playing swap the link with you

Yours doesnt really disprove or prove much

It reveals that most people have a mix of male and female brain features. And it also supports the idea that gender is non-binary, and that gender classifications in many situations are meaningless.

I can agree with that - more of a scale than two statutory points. Surely you can see why a person born a man would want to be a transwoman if their brain was more of a heavier mix of a female brain?

How thats not just a bunch of stereotypes like you assumed an hour ago?

[Niamh.]

I'm not playing swap the link with you

Yours doesnt really disprove or prove much



I can agree with that - more of a scale than two statutory points. Surely you can see why a person born a man would want to be a transwoman if their brain was more of a heavier mix of a female brain?

How thats not just a bunch of stereotypes like you assumed an hour ago?

I'm sorry I don't really understand what you're asking here? (and again I'm not sure what you mean by "female brain"

[Withano]

I'm sorry I don't really understand what you're asking here? (and again I'm not sure what you mean by "female brain"

Well, did you read the link you sent me. It defines the idea of male and female features of the brain, but how there arent two definitive brains, everyones brain is on a binary scale from extremely masculine to extremely feminine with everybody in between the two points.

If a person was born with a penis had more feminine features to their brain, you can see why they would sooner identify as a woman?

How thats not stereotypes like you assumed, their brain is literally structured in a feminine way.

That is what trans is? Brain differences, not stereotypes?

[Niamh.]

Well, did you read the link you sent me. It defines the idea of male and female features of the brain, but how there arent two definitive brains, everyones brain is on a binary scale from extremely masculine to extremely feminine with everybody in between the two points.

If a person was born with a penis had more feminine features to their brain, you can see why they would sooner identify as a woman?

How thats not stereotypes like you assumed, their brain is literally structured in a feminine way.

That is what trans is? Brain differences, not stereotypes?

No I can't see that at all because if that were the case I'd be identifying as a man myself but again I don't define my gender by stereotypes, I define it by biology and life experiences because of that biology.

[Withano]

No I can't see that at all because if that were the case I'd be identifying as a man myself but again I don't define my gender by stereotypes, I define it by biology and life experiences because of that biology.

I dont understand why you keep bringing up stereotypes though. I've never brought that up, your link never brought that up - as far as I can tell, thats just your misconception of what gender is.

[Niamh.]

I dont understand why you keep bringing up stereotypes though. I've never brought that up, your link never brought that up - as far as I can tell, thats just your misconception of what gender is.

I posted the definition of gender a few posts up and it pretty much says a bunch of stereotypes, doesn't mention the word brain once but OK I'm the one who doesn't understand gender

[Withano]

I posted the definition of gender a few posts up and it pretty much says a bunch of stereotypes, doesn't mention the word brain once but OK I'm the one who doesn't understand gender

Doesnt really say that though? Its an incredibly simplistic 10-word definition which you interpreted in an odd way.

Theres nothing I disagree with in the definition. There are social and cultural differences between gender, gender is encouraged from an early age. You're just ignoring why this has happened.

[Niamh.]

Doesnt really say that though? Its an incredibly simplistic 10-word definition which you interpreted in an odd way.

You know it's possible to have this discussion without having little digs at me Withano. I don't think it's "odd" to interpret the Bits I've bolded to mean stereotypes

the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

"traditional concepts of gender"


•the members of one or other sex:

"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"


synonyms: gender
Today 09:25 AM

[Niamh.]

Doesnt really say that though? Its an incredibly simplistic 10-word definition which you interpreted in an odd way.

Theres nothing I disagree with in the definition. There are social and cultural differences between gender, gender is encouraged from an early age. You're just ignoring why this has happened.

I'm not ignoring why this has happened, I disagree with your view of why it happened

[Withano]

I'm not ignoring why this has happened, I disagree with your view of why it happened

Well I'm saying it has happened because of brain differences. You shared a link highligting these brain differences. Are you now disagreeing with the link you shared?

[Jamie89]

also if you look up the definition of gender it pretty much says "a bunch of stereotypes"


the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones):

"traditional concepts of gender"


•the members of one or other sex:

"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"


synonyms: gender

The problem with a lot of this stuff is semantics and I think it's largely down to a lot of the wording we use coming about before we really understood much about transsexualism. I think there's truth in what both you and Withano are saying tbh. The current definition of gender only changed to what it is now as a way of describing certain stereotypes, however it's use for a lot of issues relating to trans people is very different, so ideally when we use terms like 'gender identity' for example, a different/new term should be used imo, or the definition of gender should be changed again. The problem is that when it was coined we didn't have the same understanding we have now and it creates so much confusion in all of this!
But like Withano says, when a trans person says they feel they are a different gender to what their biological sex is, they aren't referring to stereotypes at all (confusion comes again because they'll often describe the conforming of gender stereotypes as a way that helps their gender dysphoria - not because 'dressing like a woman' is innate, but because it helps society treat them as a woman and therefore alleviates their dysphoria.) But the dysphoria itself comes from the reality of their biological sex being different to the sex they feel they are, which doesn't actually have anything to do with stereotypes.

I think a similar thing goes for the word 'cis', it annoys a lot of people I've noticed but it doesn't actually mean anything that defines you or changes how you'd be viewed or anything. It's just useful in conversation like this to separate who's being talked about, a trans person or a non trans person, which is a distinction that sometimes needs to be made (and gets made also by people who seem to have a problem with the term but just worded differently). But in actual fact it doesn't mean anything different to saying 'non-trans person', ' someone who isn't trans' etc etc, it's not applying a label it's just used to make the conversations easier to understand. Again, it's just semantics.

[Niamh.]

Well I'm saying it has happened because of brain differences. You shared a link highligting these brain differences. Are you now disagreeing with the link you shared?

The link I posted says there is no male or female brains, they specifically have the "male" and "female" in "'s because of that

“There are not two types of brain”

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. “There are not two types of brain,” says Joel.

[Jamie89]

A moderator's role though is not really to play thought police, which is what we are getting into when we are starting to hand select what is "unacceptable" conversation versus what isn't. It should only be to manage discussions so that they topics don't fall entirely apart and to moderate for obvious baiting and incendiary behavior. SD is a boiler room, and I think that that will never change. The goal should be to moderate as little as possible. (anything else is "curation"). And sometimes less is done of what is needed because of the thin line between censorship and guiding discussion... otherwise it'll turn into a cliquey turf war.

I'm still for creating a relationships/LGBT/humanities section, as I think this forum really needs it. It will help alleviate the pressure I think. In which case, I nominate Jamie89 for President of said section.

Make TiBB Gay Again :dazzler:

[Withano]

The link I posted says there is no male or female brains, they specifically have the "male" and "female" in "'s because of that

“There are not two types of brain”

When the group looked at each individual brain scan, however, they found that very few people had all of the brain features they might be expected to have, based on their sex. Across the sample, between 0 and 8 per cent of people had “all-male” or “all-female” brains, depending on the definition. “Most people are in the middle,” says Joel.

This means that, averaged across many people, sex differences in brain structure do exist, but an individual brain is likely to be just that: individual, with a mix of features. “There are not two types of brain,” says Joel.

I've been through this, I feel like you're just skirting around the question by ignoring what I'm saying

The link you shared highlights how there is a more typically masculine brain, and a more typically female brain, with nearly everybody falling between the two on a binary scale.

You're saying transpeople feel that way because of stereotypes, when this link would clearly imply that a transperson would actually just have a brain which is structured in a more feminine or masculine way, which does not correlate with their birth-sex.

Women and transwomen will have, on average, a more feminine brain
Men and transmen will have, on average, a more masculine brain
This has created stereotypes like women having a better verbal ability because they are, on average, better at verbal reasoning due to their brain structure.

Which part of you disagreeing with?

[Niamh.]

The problem with a lot of this stuff is semantics and I think it's largely down to a lot of the wording we use coming about before we really understood much about transsexualism. I think there's truth in what both you and Withano are saying tbh. The current definition of gender only changed to what it is now as a way of describing certain stereotypes, however it's use for a lot of issues relating to trans people is very different, so ideally when we use terms like 'gender identity' for example, a different/new term should be used imo, or the definition of gender should be changed again. The problem is that when it was coined we didn't have the same understanding we have now and it creates so much confusion in all of this!
But like Withano says, when a trans person says they feel they are a different gender to what their biological sex is, they aren't referring to stereotypes at all (confusion comes again because they'll often describe the conforming of gender stereotypes as a way that helps their gender dysphoria - not because 'dressing like a woman' is innate, but because it helps society treat them as a woman and therefore alleviates their dysphoria.) But the dysphoria itself comes from the reality of their biological sex being different to the sex they feel they are, which doesn't actually have anything to do with stereotypes.

I think a similar thing goes for the word 'cis', it annoys a lot of people I've noticed but it doesn't actually mean anything that defines you or changes how you'd be viewed or anything. It's just useful in conversation like this to separate who's being talked about, a trans person or a non trans person, which is a distinction that sometimes needs to be made (and gets made also by people who seem to have a problem with the term but just worded differently). But in actual fact it doesn't mean anything different to saying 'non-trans person', ' someone who isn't trans' etc etc, it's not applying a label it's just used to make the conversations easier to understand. Again, it's just semantics.

I take your points Jamie but I guess I just don't understand how a person born in one sex can feel like an other when I whole heartedly believe that feeling like a woman comes directly from sex and how your life experiences go because of being that sex. I feel like I'm just repeating what I've already said now though but I guess that's just what I think about it. It's always a pleasure reading your views though, you put your points across very well

[Niamh.]

I've been through this, I feel like you're just skirting around the question by ignoring what I'm saying

The link you shared highlights how there is a more typically masculine brain, and a more typically female brain, with nearly everybody falling between the two on a binary scale.

You're saying transpeople feel that way because of stereotypes, when this link would clearly imply that a transperson would actually just have a brain which is structured in a more feminine or masculine way, which does not correlate with their birth-sex.

Women and transwomen will have, on average, a more feminine brain
Men and transmen will have, on average, a more masculine brain
This has created stereotypes like women having a better verbal ability because they are, on average, better at verbal reasoning due to their brain structure.

Which part of you disagreeing with?

Hang on a second now Withano I never said Trans people feel that way because of anything. What I said was I believe gender is a bunch of stereotypes.

BIB - If most people fall in between the two then they're not really "typically" male or female are they? I think that's what the link I posted was saying actually

[Withano]

Hang on a second now Withano I never said Trans people feel that way because of anything. What I said was I believe gender is a bunch of stereotypes.

BIB - If most people fall in between the two then they're not really "typically" male or female are they? I think that's what the link I posted was saying actually

They were saying that most of the world is non-binary, which I too agree with! But I'm not having that debate on tibb!

The link was saying that there are feminine features of the brain and masculine features of the brain - I can understand why a person that has a large majority of feminine features would become a transwoman, thats logical to me... Sure they'd be non-binary, like 90% of the world, but their gender is far more female than male despite having a penis (unless they are one of the rare few with an entirely feminine brain, which could still happen).. I can see why they'd want to present themselves as female, and why they aould want people to view them that way.

Thats why they become trans, brain differences, not stereotypes?
And thats what gender is, brain differences, not stereotypes?

[DemolitionRed]

The problem for me is, this started as an energetic and Inteligent debate some months ago. The person who lead that debate was very diplomatic and many of the people who joined in, including you Kizzy, stated the opinion they are entitled to in a way that it could be discussed further. I think most of enjoyed that debate. Then other debates started where transgenderism was a main point and because it had now been established who was for and against, it was much more vitriol than the first one. It started to sound hateful and transphobic, unlike the first one. I didn't join in those threads because I didn't see any point. I saw comments being accepted that didn't sit comfortably with me and so after reading half a dozen posts, I just sighed and shut it down. At one point on here it felt like transgenderism was being hung drawn and quartered.

I think Vicky, Niamh and Kizzy are intelligent women and more than capable of having some good debates. Unfortunately those sort of threads attract tag teaming and bitterness from certain people who's only way of debating is to make a strong attempt to shut opposing opinions down. I know I came back strongly at Vicky in that first post. She didn't take offense but explained why she felt like she did and equally, I didn't take offense at why she felt the way she did. I can't though, remain calm when someone else jumps on my explanation of acceptance and attempts to mock my opinion with sarcasms.

[Jamie89]

I take your points Jamie but I guess I just don't understand how a person born in one sex can feel like an other when I whole heartedly believe that feeling like a woman comes directly from sex and how your life experiences go because of being that sex. I feel like I'm just repeating what I've already said now though but I guess that's just what I think about it. It's always a pleasure reading your views though, you put your points across very well

Thanks Niamh :love: In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

[Niamh.]

They were saying that most of the world is non-binary, which I too agree with! But I'm not having that debate on tibb!

The link was saying that there are feminine features of the brain and masculine features of the brain - I can understand why a person that has a large majority of feminine features would become a transwoman, thats logical to me... Sure they'd be non-binary, like 90% of the world, but their gender is far more female than male despite having a penis (unless they are one of the rare few with an entirely feminine brain, which could still happen).. I can see why they'd want to present themselves as female, and what people to view them that way.

Thats why they become trans, not stereotypes?

I actually agree with part of your opinion on this but arrive at a different conclusion, I'm not sure I'm articulating my thoughts very well though :laugh: Like, I agree with the first half of your post but my conclusion is that "male" and "female" traits shouldn't be linked to having a penis or a vagina and they don't feel like they are to me, if you get what I mean? Like I would consider myself to have a lot of "male" traits and was never very "girly" but I don't see things like that as what make me a woman, does that make sense? I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well

[Brillopad]

Thats why they become trans, brain differences, not stereotypes?
And thats what gender is, brain differences, not stereotypes?

It has not been conclusively determined that gender is solely based on brain differences. That is your take on the discussions - not fact. The whole subject is still under discussion with, as yet , no conclusive outcome - so do us all a favour and stop trying to present your opinion as written in stone, undeniable fact. It isn’t.

[Withano]

I actually agree with part of your opinion on this but arrive at a different conclusion, I'm not sure I'm articulating my thoughts very well though :laugh: Like, I agree with the first half of your post but my conclusion is that "male" and "female" traits shouldn't be linked to having a penis or a vagina and they don't feel like they are to me, if you get what I mean? Like I would consider myself to have a lot of "male" traits and was never very "girly" but I don't see things like that as what make me a woman, does that make sense? I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well

I do know what you're saying! I think you're saying that your womanhood developed over time through the experiences that you had? (If no, ignore below)

I'd argue that if your brain had more 'masculine features' you wouldnt have grew up into a woman, if your brain was more masculine than feminine, you would sooner associate yourself with manhood.
I think the average transperson has a brain that did not correlate with their birthsex growing up, and as such, they grew up thinking and feeling like their desired sex despite not technically being that sex.
I'd argue that you feeling more in touch with your womanhood is directly linked to your more feminine brain, and me being more in touch with manhood is directly linked to my brain, and if we were born with the same brain but different sexes, we'd likely want to become transpeople.

[Niamh.]

Thanks Niamh :love: In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

And I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone in that situation Jamie, I really do, it must be awful to feel that way and I'm not for second saying that I think they're making it all up, I just think it's unhelpful to try and label it in a way that's trying to build up stereotypes again

[Kizzy]

Do you know the difference between gender and sex? Because any F/M trans of the same age as you, also going through their transistion tomorrow would not have that same wealth of experience as a woman. They likely never saw themselves as a woman, and likely never lived their life as one. Their gender was never female and yours was - that parallel you tried to draw doesn't exist really.

I think this is the issue personally. People thinking you're only a different person after the operation. Its not the case. It was daft when Hegerty implied it, its still daft now.

The issue was in relation to the perception of how other men reacted to women when he was seen as male too....that's how I understood it.
Should she be in a male environment she may already identify as female whilst looking male, however other males would still react to her as male.

In many ways she would be better placed to comment on patriarchy being in a sense an incognito female.

[Niamh.]

I do know what you're saying! I think you're saying that your womanhood developed over time through the experiences that you had? (If no, ignore below)

I'd argue that if your brain had more 'masculine features' you wouldnt have grew up into a woman, if your brain was more masculine than feminine, you would sooner associate yourself with manhood.
I think the average transperson has a brain that did not correlate with their birthsex growing up, and as such, they grew up thinking and feeling like their desired sex despite not technically being that sex.
I'd argue that you feeling more in touch with your womanhood is directly linked to your more feminine brain, and me being more in touch with manhood is directly linked to my brain, and if we were born with the same brain but different sexes, we'd likely want to become transpeople.

Ok, I suppose there isn't very much more to say on it. I understand the point you're making but I don't agree with it

[Ammi]

Thanks Niamh :love: In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

...yeah and there always has to be a ‘first’ as well, Jamie...or a first recognised, which many have been made more aware of recently because of ‘The Danish Girl’...and Lili being the first surgical ‘transitioning’....but she felt before that, I guess fitted some ‘female strereotypes’....I think the progress is that tran people no longer have to look at surgery as being the only option to have recognition of their gender...which is why i’m pro self-identifying also...but then with self identification, it’s always the thing of being open to ‘abuse’ as well...so I do completely understand concerns there also...which is why it’s so important that these things can be discussed without ‘labelling’....

[Withano]

Ok, I suppose there isn't very much more to say on it. I understand the point you're making but I don't agree with it

Last question, so you believe transpeople exist because of stereotypes, and nothing to do with their brains? Or you just think there must be some other explanation?

[Niamh.]

Last question, so you believe transpeople exist because of stereotypes, and nothing to do with their brains? Or you just think there must be some other explanation?

No I don't think transpeople exist because of stereotypes, honestly I think it's a type of dysphoria and I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone who is transsexual.

[DemolitionRed]

DR I think you're preaching to the converted somewhat here, I would say that 99% of the forum and for certain me personally am very sympathetic to M/F or F/M transitions.

I have to say though that as upsetting as it was the fact was they were once a different gender... and as such will have had experiences that they could draw on for comment in relation to that.
Which to my mind is more or less what happened here, they didn't die and get reborn they transitioned, the memory of socialisation, patriarchy and peer pressure is still all there to relate to isn't it?

Should I transition tomorrow I would still have a wealth of experience as a female to draw upon a a trans man.

Okay, so here's a scenario that happened to him. At the start of his transitioning period he did everything he could to look like a boy. His mum went along with him on his induction day at uni and he was clearly concerned that people would catch him out and laugh at him (he's very quiet and shy). He had to line up and register. When he got to the registration table the woman couldn't find his name (his name is the same as his birth name as it can be used for boys or girls). The woman suddenly proclaimed loudly, "Oh here it is, I have you down as a female" and continued "Oh right ok... your a male now!!". He was devastated.

Yes, its true, he was once a girl... he knows that but that doesn't mean he wants everyone in the room to know that. Informing a transgender that they were once female is a pointless and an inconsiderate action.

Nobody dies, nobody gets physically hurt but any act that causes anxiousness, upset and even depression should be avoided. Its called tact.

[Withano]

No I don't think transpeople exist because of stereotypes, honestly I think it's a type of dysphoria and I have an awful lot of sympathy for anyone who is transsexual.

And (sorry) that their brains tend to develop in a way more stereotypically opposite-sex-way because of their dysphoria, instead of them being born with just a brain that would have always developed that way?

[Kizzy]

Okay, so here's a scenario that happened to him. At the start of his transitioning period he did everything he could to look like a boy. His mum went along with him on his induction day at uni and he was clearly concerned that people would catch him out and laugh at him (he's very quiet and shy). He had to line up and register. When he got to the registration table the woman couldn't find his name (his name is the same as his birth name as it can be used for boys or girls). The woman suddenly proclaimed loudly, "Oh here it is, I have you down as a female" and continued "Oh right ok... your a male now!!". He was devastated.

Yes, its true, he was once a girl... he knows that but that doesn't mean he wants everyone in the room to know that. Informing a transgender that they were once female is a pointless and an inconsiderate action.

Nobody dies, nobody gets physically hurt but any act that causes anxiousness, upset and even depression should be avoided. Its called tact.



In this instance everyone in the room did know, having spent some time as the opposite sex is not a dirty secret either.

[Niamh.]

And (sorry) that their brains tend to develop in a way more stereotypically opposite-sex-way because of their dysphoria, instead of them being born with just a brain that would have always developed that way?

So you agree that gender is a bunch of stereotypes now :hehe:

But no I don't agree that their brain develops into a female brain or whatever, I feel that they're unhappy with themselves and want to change who they are

[jaxie]

that word "cis" annoys me too.

I'm pretty sure the whole brain debate is inconclusive actually, you've just chosen to believe the studies that support your POV

I actually find being called cis offensive. It feels like people trying to label women in a way to validate trans women more. The difference is where I would be generally polite in calling a trans woman she, even when she looks like a man, I doubt any of her supporters would show me the same politeness in not using the word cis in relation to me and my gender.

[Withano]

So you agree that gender is a bunch of stereotypes now :hehe:

But no I don't agree that their brain develops into a female brain or whatever, I feel that they're unhappy with themselves and want to change who they are

I always agreed with that, the brain differences between most males and most females has created stereotypes.

Do you remember when Courtney from Celeb Big Brother would identify his gender a '4' on a scale from 0 'entirely female' to 6 'entirely male'. Don't you think its that a transmale would probably identify their gender as a 0 or 1 which makes them unhappy and want to change?
Like I don't think any 6s who are unhappy with themselves would change their sex?

[Withano]

I actually find being called cis offensive. It feels like people trying to label women in a way to validate trans women more. The difference is where I would be generally polite in calling a trans woman she, even when she looks like a man, I doubt any of her supporters would show me the same politeness in not using the word cis in relation to me and my gender.

Cis is a word given to men too? It just means your sex and your gender correlate. As a way to differentiate between you and a transwoman, or me and a transman.

[Niamh.]

I always agreed with that, the brain differences between most males and most females has created stereotypes.

Do you remember when Courtney from Celeb Big Brother would identify his gender a '4' on a scale from 0 'entirely female' to 7 'entirely male'. Don't you think its that a transmale would probably identify their gender as a 0 or 1 which makes them unhappy and want to change?
Like I don't think any 7s who are unhappy with themselves would change their sex?

Withano we're just back to having the same argument again now though, I already told you that I don't agree with the whole "male" female" stereotype making you male or female so I can't really answer that question. I loved Courtney/Shane but I didn't agree with his opinions on everything

[Niamh.]

Cis is a word given to men too? It just means your sex and your gender correlate. As a way to differentiate between you and a transwoman, or me and a transman.

I think it's easy to forget that there are FtoM trans people aswell because we hear a lot less from them over MtoF, also the issues Vicky speaks about affect women more than men I think.

[Marsh.]

I actually find being called cis offensive. It feels like people trying to label women in a way to validate trans women more. The difference is where I would be generally polite in calling a trans woman she, even when she looks like a man, I doubt any of her supporters would show me the same politeness in not using the word cis in relation to me and my gender.

Cis literally means you identify as the sex you were born. Nothing offensive about it.

[user104658]

I have literally no time to go into this in much depth as I'm leaving for work in 10 mins and I'm not even dressed, but as a quick run-down ;

- I'm not just talking about this thread (this may be where some of the confusion is coming from).

- I'm not saying there isn't scope for discussion or scepticism or criticism on the topic, at all, and yes Vicky has done so in a well thought out way several times.

- she is also guilty of posting the (to paraphrase) comments that amount to "Just because a bloke cuts off his dick doesn't make him a woman!!". Again this is not an exact quote, just in the ball park.

- these are what I have a problem with because points being made with similar language would quite blatantly NOT be accepted if it was about a racial group, homosexuals, or pretty much any other group.

- my MAIN ISSUE is that it has to be either OK or not OK. My personal view is that I have ZERO doubt that these comments would be far more likely to be flagged if several moderators hadn't expressed clear support of those comments or the ideology behind them. In the past, I've never had any major concerns about mod impartiality on here but at this point, there are clear issues.

- Kizzy. I didn't quote ANYONE in my initial post about this. Feel free to check, guys. I quoted Kizzy AFTER Kizzy demanded to see an example, as it was the most recent example on the page. I'm sorry Kizzy but none of this is about you at all. I know that's hard to accept.



Anyway like I said, can't really go into a back and forth on this just now but (look forward to it, guys!) I'm off tomorrow so I'm going to mull the issue over and give it it's own thread. Just wanted to address some of the initial misunderstanding.

[Withano]

Withano we're just back to having the same argument again now though, I already told you that I don't agree with the whole "male" female" stereotype making you male or female so I can't really answer that question. I loved Courtney/Shane but I didn't agree with his opinions on everything

I'm not talking about stereotypes, I'm suggesting that Courtneys brain is midway between the typical man and the typical womans brain - nothing to do with stereotypes. He is non-binary like the majority of people.
I'm asking if you think that if a male that had a brain more feminine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves and want to change their sex, whereas a male who had a brain more masculine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves but not consider a sex change.

[Niamh.]

I'm not talking about stereotypes, I'm suggesting that Courtneys brain is midway between the typical man and the typical womans brain - nothing to do with stereotypes.
I'm asking if you think that if a male that had a brain more feminine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves and want to change their sex, whereas a male who had a brain more masculine than Courtneys would be unhappy with themselves but not consider a sex change.

Well you are talking about stereotypes though, you're asking me if someone had a brain with more stereotypically male or female qualities.

[Marsh.]

Well you are talking about stereotypes though, you're asking me if someone had a brain with more stereotypically male or female qualities.
What's that got to do with stereotypes?

I think a feminine brain goes far beyond thinking about shoes. [emoji23]

[Brillopad]

I have literally no time to go into this in much depth as I'm leaving for work in 10 mins and I'm not even dressed, but as a quick run-down ;

- I'm not just talking about this thread (this may be where some of the confusion is coming from).

- I'm not saying there isn't scope for discussion or scepticism or criticism on the topic, at all, and yes Vicky has done so in a well thought out way several times.

- she is also guilty of posting the (to paraphrase) comments that amount to "Just because a bloke cuts off his dick doesn't make him a woman!!". Again this is not an exact quote, just in the ball park.

- these are what I have a problem with because points being made with similar language would quite blatantly NOT be accepted if it was about a racial group, homosexuals, or pretty much any other group.

- my MAIN ISSUE is that it has to be either OK or not OK. My personal view is that I have ZERO doubt that these comments would be far more likely to be flagged if several moderators hadn't expressed clear support of those comments or the ideology behind them. In the past, I've never had any major concerns about mod impartiality on here but at this point, there are clear issues.

- Kizzy. I didn't quote ANYONE in my initial post about this. Feel free to check, guys. I quoted Kizzy AFTER Kizzy demanded to see an example, as it was the most recent example on the page. I'm sorry Kizzy but none of this is about you at all. I know that's hard to accept.



Anyway like I said, can't really go into a back and forth on this just now but (look forward to it, guys!) I'm off tomorrow so I'm going to mull the issue over and give it it's own thread. Just wanted to address some of the initial misunderstanding.

Tbh I think many would disagree with your comments about not having any concerns about mod impartiality on here - they just happen to come from the opposite side of the argument to you generally and have a very different experience. And I am not talking about either of the mods you mentioned. Perspective is very much related to experience.

[Withano]

Well you are talking about stereotypes though, you're asking me if someone had a brain with more stereotypically male or female qualities.

Right. I think you threw me off with not agreeing with the link you shared. The one which suggests that there are feminine features to a brain, and masculine features to a brain.

A penis-person with more feminine features to their brain, that is unhappy with themselves would consider a sex change
Whereas
A penis-person with more masculine features to their brain, that is unhappy with themselves would not consider a sex change

Ultimately thats the difference between a male and a transfemale, no?

[Niamh.]

What's that got to do with stereotypes?

I think a feminine brain goes far beyond thinking about shoes. [emoji23]

I don't think it's very helpful to the discussion to just come in and make a sarcastic remark tbf Marsh. I'm happy to discuss it with you but please don't do that by trying to mock my posts

[Niamh.]

Right. I think you threw me off with not agreeing with the link you shared. The one which suggests that there are feminine features to a brain, and masculine features to a brain.

A penis-person with more feminine features to their brain, that is unhappy with themselves would consider a sex change
Whereas
A penis-person with more masculine features to their brain, that is unhappy with themselves would not consider a sex change

Ultimately thats the difference between a male and a transfemale, no?

OMG so we're now back to you telling me I disagree with the article I posted. I thought we'd already covered that a couple of pages back. But to clarify I don't disagree with that article I've already explained why I don't so I'm not going to do it again.

[Withano]

OMG so we're now back to you telling me I disagree with the article I posted. I thought we'd already covered that a couple of pages back. But to clarify I don't disagree with that article I've already explained why I don't so I'm not going to do it again.

Well then why did you bring up stereotypes again like as if I wasnt talking about the stereotypical brain differences! You went backwards in the discussion, not me.

[Jamie89]

...yeah and there always has to be a ‘first’ as well, Jamie...or a first recognised, which many have been made more aware of recently because of ‘The Danish Girl’...and Lili being the first surgical ‘transitioning’....but she felt before that, I guess fitted some ‘female strereotypes’....I think the progress is that tran people no longer have to look at surgery as being the only option to have recognition of their gender...which is why i’m pro self-identifying also...but then with self identification, it’s always the thing of being open to ‘abuse’ as well...so I do completely understand concerns there also...which is why it’s so important that these things can be discussed without ‘labelling’....I'm really on the fence with self-ID, I haven't quite made my mind up on that yet. I worry that as well as it potentially causing problems for women it could also cause problems for transsexuals as it might blur the lines between transsexual women and predatory men (in the eyes of some people). But then I agree that it would be better if such traumatic surgery wasn't seen as being as much of a necessity for trans people, and surgery isn't something that actually makes someone trans. So I don't know really its a complicated one.

[Kizzy]

I have literally no time to go into this in much depth as I'm leaving for work in 10 mins and I'm not even dressed, but as a quick run-down ;

- I'm not just talking about this thread (this may be where some of the confusion is coming from).

- I'm not saying there isn't scope for discussion or scepticism or criticism on the topic, at all, and yes Vicky has done so in a well thought out way several times.

- she is also guilty of posting the (to paraphrase) comments that amount to "Just because a bloke cuts off his dick doesn't make him a woman!!". Again this is not an exact quote, just in the ball park.

- these are what I have a problem with because points being made with similar language would quite blatantly NOT be accepted if it was about a racial group, homosexuals, or pretty much any other group.

- my MAIN ISSUE is that it has to be either OK or not OK. My personal view is that I have ZERO doubt that these comments would be far more likely to be flagged if several moderators hadn't expressed clear support of those comments or the ideology behind them. In the past, I've never had any major concerns about mod impartiality on here but at this point, there are clear issues.

- Kizzy. I didn't quote ANYONE in my initial post about this. Feel free to check, guys. I quoted Kizzy AFTER Kizzy demanded to see an example, as it was the most recent example on the page. I'm sorry Kizzy but none of this is about you at all. I know that's hard to accept.



Anyway like I said, can't really go into a back and forth on this just now but (look forward to it, guys!) I'm off tomorrow so I'm going to mull the issue over and give it it's own thread. Just wanted to address some of the initial misunderstanding.

I know you didn't but I knew it was in relation to my comment which is why I asked you to expand, you then confirmed it but afterward chastised me for it :/
If it was nothing to do with me then why hold my comment up as an example?

I look forward to your thread, I can't wait for your explanation of how some members and the female moderators discriminate on the forum.

[jaxie]

Thanks Niamh :love: In all honesty I don't get it either, and I don't think anyone who doesn't experience gender dysphoria/gender identity can fully get it. I firmly believe that it exists and is a real thing because I think it has to be, trans people have always existed and in consistent numbers, and considering the lengths they go to I don't see how it can't exist. But I sort of think of it as being something where if you don't experience conflict with your own gender identity, then maybe your gender identity just isn't something that would be apparent to you. There has to be an explanation as to why transsexualism exists and that's the best I can think of anyway. There's so much we can't understand about how the brain works (and not just the brain but how different hormone levels during pregnancy can effect these things - I don't know a lot about that but I've heard there's some research about the effects of that), but we do know that people transition, so the question is, why? I don't think it can be down to gender roles because transsexualism exists in different cultures and different time periods where gender roles and societies are very different, which is why to me there must be an explanation for it rooted somewhere in biology.

I am not convinced about the female brain stuff tbh Jamie but I do agree with you that it is clear that the desire/need to be a sex you weren't born into is a mental health issue. Where we differ strongly is that, while I'm not unsympathetic to the problem, I am also not convinced cosmetically removing or restructuring people's sexual organs is an appropriate 'cure/treatment'. It doesn't suddenly make you sexually attractive to straight men, change a male body shape etc (same really for a trans man and I hear the penis doesn't look good either). I've read that suicide rates after surgery are high and this leads me to conclude it isn't the magical shangrila people convince themselves it will be. Many of the problems of not being the sex you desire to be are still there and I think more counselling might be more helpful than surgery.

However the biggest aversion I have to the whole subject is how people who are mostly in fact men are suddenly telling us we must fully accept trans people as the same as us women. Have even invented a conversational word for us as cis women, trying to blur the lines. You don't need to invent a word in conversation to make it easier, you can say woman and trans woman, there you are sorted.

This isn't a feeling against a trans person it is a fight for our identity.

[Niamh.]

Well then why did you bring up stereotypes again like as if I wasnt talking about the stereotypical brain differences! You went backwards in the discussion, not me.

I don't think your brain makes you a man or a woman as in the sense you're talking about, I think your sex followed by how you're treated because of your sex and your life experiences because of your sex is what makes you a man or a woman. Does that answer your question? It's what I've been saying from the start though

[Marsh.]

I don't think it's very helpful to the discussion to just come in and make a sarcastic remark tbf Marsh. I'm happy to discuss it with you but please don't do that by trying to mock my posts
It might be sarcastic but it's also relevant. You mentioned stereotypes as though they're the only possible feminine/masculine features a person or a brain can have.

So... a feminine brain going beyond laughably stereotypical female thinking/behaviour is an apt comment to make.

[Kizzy]

Well then why did you bring up stereotypes again like as if I wasnt talking about the stereotypical brain differences! You went backwards in the discussion, not me.

Maybe Anne has a male brain?... She couldn't see the issues most women see in relation to career progression :/

[Marsh.]

I am not convinced about the female brain stuff tbh Jamie but I do agree with you that it is clear that the desire/need to be a sex you weren't born into is a mental health issue. Where we differ strongly is that, while I'm not unsympathetic to the problem, I am also not convinced cosmetically removing or restructuring people's sexual organs is an appropriate 'cure/treatment'. It doesn't suddenly make you sexually attractive to straight men, change a male body shape etc (same really for a trans man and I hear the penis doesn't look good either). I've read that suicide rates after surgery are high and this leads me to conclude it isn't the magical shangrila people convince themselves it will be. Many of the problems of not being the sex you desire to be are still there and I honk more counselling might be more helpful than surgery.

However the biggest aversion I have to the whole subject is how people who are mostly in fact men are suddenly telling us we must fully accept trans people as the same as us women. Have even invented a conversational word for us as cis women, trying to blur the lines. You don't need to invent a word in conversation to make it easier, you can say woman and trans woman, there you are sorted.

This isn't a feeling against a trans person it is a fight for our identity.
"Cis" is not blurring the lines at all. It's giving you exactly what you want... The distinction.

Distinction between a born woman and a transwoman.

Like we are all humans. But there's a distinction between man/ woman. Within those groups there's a distinction between cis man/transman and cis woman/transwoman.

Your aversion to labels, whilst wanting trans people to keep labels in order to not ever dare be seen in the same light as yourself is quite a dichotomy.

[Brillopad]

I am not convinced about the female brain stuff tbh Jamie but I do agree with you that it is clear that the desire/need to be a sex you weren't born into is a mental health issue. Where we differ strongly is that, while I'm not unsympathetic to the problem, I am also not convinced cosmetically removing or restructuring people's sexual organs is an appropriate 'cure/treatment'. It doesn't suddenly make you sexually attractive to straight men, change a male body shape etc (same really for a trans man and I hear the penis doesn't look good either). I've read that suicide rates after surgery are high and this leads me to conclude it isn't the magical shangrila people convince themselves it will be. Many of the problems of not being the sex you desire to be are still there and I honk more counselling might be more helpful than surgery.

However the biggest aversion I have to the whole subject is how people who are mostly in fact men are suddenly telling us we must fully accept trans people as the same as us women. Have even invented a conversational word for us as cis women, trying to blur the lines. You don't need to invent a word in conversation to make it easier, you can say woman and trans woman, there you are sorted.

This isn't a feeling against a trans person it is a fight for our identity.

Great post Jaxie :thumbs:

[Niamh.]

It might be sarcastic but it's also relevant. You mentioned stereotypes as though they're the only possible feminine/masculine features a person or a brain can have.

So... a feminine brain going beyond laughably stereotypical female thinking/behaviour is an apt comment to make.

You were the one who reduced it to "liking shoes" I actually didn't list any kind of stereotypes

[Withano]

I don't think your brain makes you a man or a woman as in the sense you're talking about, I think your sex followed by how you're treated because of your sex and your life experiences because of your sex is what makes you a man or a woman. Does that answer your question? It's what I've been saying from the start though

That does answer my question. That does contradict your article by quite a hefty margin though.

[Withano]

Maybe Anne has a male brain?... She couldn't see the issues most women see in relation to career progression :/

Perhaps. I'd argue your reasoning is irrelevant, but she may have a more male brain. I dont know much about her tbh.

[Kizzy]

This is the question I tried to ask Niamh. Nothing to do with stereotypes, just more 'feminine features' or more 'masculine features' in the brain. I see that as the main difference between a male and a transfemale, Ive been wondering if you see that difference too. Nothing to do with stereotypes or gender norms, just the brain differences like the ones your article pointed out.

It might help if you identify what these gender specific 'features' are...

[Marsh.]

You were the one who reduced it to "liking shoes" I actually didn't list any kind of stereotypes
You don't need to list them. I used an example of a stereotype.

Shoes is a feminine stereotype, yes?

Therefore a perfectly valid example.

[Niamh.]

That does answer my question. That does contradict your article by quite a hefty margin though.

You do seem determined to tell me I disagree with that article :laugh: I don't but thanks

[Kizzy]

Perhaps. I'd argue your reasoning is irrelevant, but she may have a more male brain. I dont know much about her tbh.

My reasoning is irrelevant.... What are you basing your reasoning on then?

Have you considered something I haven't, what is it?

[jaxie]

Cis literally means you identify as the sex you were born. Nothing offensive about it.

I'm saying I find it offensive, you can identify with it as much as you like.

[Ammi]

I'm really on the fence with self-ID, I haven't quite made my mind up on that yet. I worry that as well as it potentially causing problems for women it could also cause problems for transsexuals as it might blur the lines between transsexual women and predatory men (in the eyes of some people). But then I agree that it would be better if such traumatic surgery wasn't seen as being as much of a necessity for trans people, and surgery isn't something that actually makes someone trans. So I don't know really its a complicated one.

..yeah it is complex, Jamie...it’s funny..(..non related but kind of..)...over years, ive has many chats with friends on ‘would you ever consider cosmetic surgery in the future’....and I’ve often said...goddamn YES, absolutely..:laugh:..but having gone through many surgeries in my life, I would never consider any surgery that wasn’t essential...if there was an alternative ‘method’, I mean...and self identification would be something that would give this../..this ‘non surgical’ procedure that would surely be progress...with the dangers and risks of any surgery...the stress on the body and recovery time etc...it shouldn’t be something that would be the only way to bring ‘recognition’...and obviously the cost as well, it feeling more available as a choice to people with higher incomes who could ‘afford’....I think for some it has been available on NHS...but then, that topic is quite controversial as well...so yeah, very complex...but there are reasons why I’m in agreement with self-identification...but I’ve also taken on board very much, so many things that Vicky has said of ‘being open to abuse’...

[Marsh.]

Anne's struggles to see issues in career progression stem from being in a big job on telly earning thousands and not having to really worry about fighting her way through a male dominated field.

That literally comes from her lucky and comfortable position. Not a possible male brain. Although I suppose she could have one.

[Jamie89]

I am not convinced about the female brain stuff tbh Jamie but I do agree with you that it is clear that the desire/need to be a sex you weren't born into is a mental health issue. Where we differ strongly is that, while I'm not unsympathetic to the problem, I am also not convinced cosmetically removing or restructuring people's sexual organs is an appropriate 'cure/treatment'. It doesn't suddenly make you sexually attractive to straight men, change a male body shape etc (same really for a trans man and I hear the penis doesn't look good either). I've read that suicide rates after surgery are high and this leads me to conclude it isn't the magical shangrila people convince themselves it will be. Many of the problems of not being the sex you desire to be are still there and I honk more counselling might be more helpful than surgery.

However the biggest aversion I have to the whole subject is how people who are mostly in fact men are suddenly telling us we must fully accept trans people as the same as us women. Have even invented a conversational word for us as cis women, trying to blur the lines. You don't need to invent a word in conversation to make it easier, you can say woman and trans woman, there you are sorted.

This isn't a feeling against a trans person it is a fight for our identity.

The surgery isn't a cure, but the way in which it acts as a treatment is that it helps alleviate the trans persons dysphoria. It leads to them generally being more accepted as the opposite sex and helps them view themselves as that sex. But yes it shouldn't be viewed by anyone as a cure (and I think trans people are aware of this from the many consultations they have prior to surgery). I think it's more seen as a cure by non-trans people, as a lot of people will only accept someone as trans if they've had surgery.


On the 'cis' thing, I really do struggle to understand why it's seen as offensive tbh Jaxie. You say that trans women aren't the same as women, but that's actually what the word 'cis' represents. If that word (or any similar wording that means the same thing) wasn't used, there would be no differentiation between you and a transsexual woman. Yes we could say 'woman' and 'trans woman', but then a lot of people do view trans women as women so at times of the word 'woman' being used it might be confusing as to who is being referred to. So it only exists as a word to enable the conversations to take place in a coherent way which surely is needed in such complex topics as this. It's not placing any kind of label onto you, and is no different to what people mean when they say things like 'real women'.
I've tried to limit using 'cis' during conversations like this, actually since the last time the two of us discussed the word coincidentally :laugh: because I'm aware from that how some people take it and I haven't wanted the conversation to be distracted with a discussion about semantics, so I've used phrasing like 'biological woman', 'non-trans woman' etc etc, and I've never been pulled up on that being offensive, it's just meant that people have known who I'm referring to, making the differentiation, and that's exactly the same as what the word 'cis' does. It really isn't meant as a label in any way.


edited to add: if we were to just use woman and transwoman, it denies anyone the opinion that transwomen are also women. Whether or not you agree that they are, surely people are entitled to that opinion? So as long as that opinion does exist there has to be a way of easily differentiating between the two, and that's all the word 'cis' is meant for. A conversational aid, nothing more.

[Vicky.]

I'm really on the fence with self-ID, I haven't quite made my mind up on that yet. I worry that as well as it potentially causing problems for women it could also cause problems for transsexuals as it might blur the lines between transsexual women and predatory men (in the eyes of some people). But then I agree that it would be better if such traumatic surgery wasn't seen as being as much of a necessity for trans people, and surgery isn't something that actually makes someone trans. So I don't know really its a complicated one.

Currently, surgery is not a requirement for a GRC.

It would be barbaric if we made a law that said that someone had to have surgery.

You only have to be diagnosed with sex dysphoria, and to have 'lived as' the opposite sex for 2 years. The second part I reckon could be removed tbh, as 'lived as' does come down to stereotypes. You also need top pay a small fee, but this is waived if you are low income.

This is why I disagree with self-ID. I don't see whats wrong with having to have a diagnosis to say that yes, you do have dysphoria rather than it being a whim. And transactivists think this is a bad thing, really? I think it is necessary 'gatekeeping' to keep women as safe as possible, whilst also allowing transsexual people a bit more peace of mind. Make the GRC a 'anyone can get one' type deal, and it will be seen as a total joke.

[Niamh.]

You don't need to list them. I used an example of a stereotype.

Shoes is a feminine stereotype, yes?

Therefore a perfectly valid example.

But don't you think we could have had a better discussion if you'd have just raised your point without trying to mock mine?

[Marsh.]

But don't you think we could have had a better discussion if you'd have just raised your point without trying to mock mine?
Mock? I made my point using a pretty mild joke. I didn't mock you at all. :/

[jaxie]

The surgery isn't a cure, but the way in which it acts as a treatment is that it helps alleviate the trans persons dysphoria. It leads to them generally being more accepted as the opposite sex and helps them view themselves as that sex. But yes it shouldn't be viewed by anyone as a cure (and I think trans people are aware of this from the many consultations they have prior to surgery). I think it's more seen as a cure by non-trans people, as a lot of people will only accept someone as trans if they've had surgery.


On the 'cis' thing, I really do struggle to understand why it's seen as offensive tbh Jaxie. You say that trans women aren't the same as women, but that's actually what the word 'cis' represents. If that word (or any similar wording that means the same thing) wasn't used, there would be no differentiation between you and a transsexual woman. Yes we could say 'woman' and 'trans woman', but then a lot of people do view trans women as women so at times of the word 'woman' being used it might be confusing as to who is being referred to. So it only exists as a word to enable the conversations to take place in a coherent way which surely is needed in such complex topics as this. It's not placing any kind of label onto you, and is no different to what people mean when they say things like 'real women'.
I've tried to limit using 'cis' during conversations like this, actually since the last time the two of us discussed the word coincidentally :laugh: because I'm aware from that how some people take it and I haven't wanted the conversation to be distracted with a discussion about semantics, so I've used phrasing like 'biological woman', 'non-trans woman' etc etc, and I've never been pulled up on that being offensive, it's just meant that people have known who I'm referring to, making the differentiation, and that's exactly the same as what the word 'cis' does. It really isn't meant as a label in any way.


edited to add: if we were to just use woman and transwoman, it denies anyone the opinion that transwomen are also women. Whether or not you agree that they are, surely people are entitled to that opinion? So as long as that opinion does exist there has to be a way of easily differentiating between the two, and that's all the word 'cis' is meant for. A conversational aid, nothing more.

Women and trans women are not the same, can never be the same thing. In your head you are adding on words to define the difference. All you need to define the difference is the word trans.

In fact in your dogged support of trans women by insisting they are the same and applying extra words to define a woman you are being incredibly sexist towards women.

[Withano]

Women and trans women are not the same, can never be the same thing. In your head you are adding on words to define the difference. All you need to define the difference is the word trans.

In fact in your dogged support of trans women by insisting they are the same and applying extra words to define a woman you are being incredibly sexist towards women.

Sex refers to a persons genitalia, sexism refers to a prejudice of a person with a certain set of genitalia. A transexual woman has the same genitalia as you, you share the same sex. You refusing to refer to them as the same sex is closer to sexism by the definition of the word. Transphobic would be a better adjective, but still if youre gonna label anybody as sexist, its not gonna be the ones labeling people in-line with their sex is it. You'll need a new label to describe that kind of 'prejudice', mrs dont label me.

[Jamie89]

Women and trans women are not the same, can never be the same thing. In your head you are adding on words to define the difference. All you need to define the difference is the word trans.

In fact in your dogged support of trans women by insisting they are the same and applying extra words to define a woman you are being incredibly sexist towards women.Yes the word trans does define the difference, but only when referring to the trans person. When talking about a non trans person the word trans isn't applicable, so we could say 'non-trans person' instead (like I just did). Let's say we aren't talking about specific gender, how else other than saying 'non-trans person' would we go about that? And all the word cis means is 'non-trans'. And in that first sentence, is my use of 'non trans person' offensive?

I'm sorry you see that as a sexist way of thinking, but it isn't, I'm purely talking about making a conversation easy to understand, and that the word isn't used to add a label, but to describe who is being referred to, and I don't think I can demonstrate that any more clearly than that ^, so we may just have to agree to disagree, but I'm absolutely not being sexist towards women in any way.

[Kizzy]

Anne's struggles to see issues in career progression stem from being in a big job on telly earning thousands and not having to really worry about fighting her way through a male dominated field.

That literally comes from her lucky and comfortable position. Not a possible male brain. Although I suppose she could have one.

That hasn't always been so has it, how old is Anne, she hasn't always been a shalebrity has she?

So there is is a male brain and a female brain, that's nice and boxy isn't it?

What about a female autistic brain, I wonder what they're like? Do you think there might be a nice science shaped box for those too?

[jaxie]

Sex refers to a persons genitalia, sexism refers to a prejudice of a person with a certain set of genitalia. A transexual woman has the same genitalia as you, you share the same sex. You refusing to refer to them as the same sex is closer to sexism by the definition of the word. Transphobic would be a better adjective, but still if youre gonna label anybody as sexist, its not gonna be the ones labeling people in-line with their sex is it. You'll need a new label to describe that kind of 'prejudice', mrs dont label me.

Sex refers to sexual organs, the anatomy of a persons reproductive system and a lifetime of experience. A transexual woman is not the same as me. You can phobic me as much as you like it is just words and doesn't make it a fact. You are displaying a prejudice against women.

[bots]

As a man reading this thread I can make the following observations.

1. Men are trying to tell women how they should feel, what they should accept, how they should be referred to

2. The woman's position is being actively undermined

This doesn't seem particularly progressive to me.

[Marsh.]

Boxy?

No. Scientific fact that there are masculine and feminine parts of the brain of which everyone is somewhere on the scale, making them more or less feminine/masculine in emotions and behaviour. Also affected by the chemistry in their body estrogen/ testosterone etc.

No. Anne hasn't always been a celebrity but clearly hasn't experienced career progression difficulty which either means she never attempted a career of sorts prior to being cast on the Chase to start one in television (I think she was a professional quiz champion or whatever they're called) or she did very well progressing up the ladder with no difficulty, which is no excuse for not looking beyond her own front yard.

Her celebrity status is a hard one to label as successful career progression because it's not really typical. It can literally happen overnight, especially these days. It's rare anyone really works their way for years into the business anymore.

[Marsh.]

Sex refers to sexual organs, the anatomy of a persons reproductive system and a lifetime of experience. A transexual woman is not the same as me. You can phobic me as much as you like it is just words and doesn't make it a fact. You are displaying a prejudice against women.
No they're not the same. Hence the words cis/trans to differentiate.

The same as man/woman differentiates between two humans with distinct differences.

[Marsh.]

As a man reading this thread I can make the following observations.

1. Men are trying to tell women how they should feel, what they should accept, how they should be referred to

2. The woman's position is being actively undermined

This doesn't seem particularly progressive to me.
Except women can also transition to become men.

The cis/trans discussion isn't a female oriented topic. It's a human one so your observation is flawed.

If we were discussing a female based topic like abortion or something I'd see your point. As it is you're telling men they have no say in a discussion that is about them just as much as it's about women. It's about everyone.

[jaxie]

As a man reading this thread I can make the following observations.

1. Men are trying to tell women how they should feel, what they should accept, how they should be referred to

2. The woman's position is being actively undermined

This doesn't seem particularly progressive to me.

Thanks so much for seeing it exactly as it is! :wavey:
Roast chicken for dinner.

[Jamie89]

Yes the word trans does define the difference, but only when referring to the trans person. When talking about a non trans person the word trans isn't applicable, so we could say 'non-trans person' instead (like I just did). Let's say we aren't talking about specific gender, how else other than saying 'non-trans person' would we go about that? And all the word cis means is 'non-trans'. And in that first sentence, is my use of 'non trans person' offensive?

I'm sorry you see that as a sexist way of thinking, but it isn't, I'm purely talking about making a conversation easy to understand, and that the word isn't used to add a label, but to describe who is being referred to, and I don't think I can demonstrate that any more clearly than that ^, so we may just have to agree to disagree, but I'm absolutely not being sexist towards women in any way.

I'll just add to this that I have exactly the same views when it comes to trans men and non trans men. So if those views make me sexist then I guess I'm sexist towards both men and women... which I don't think is possible but whatever.

This also applies to this...

As a man reading this thread I can make the following observations.

1. Men are trying to tell women how they should feel, what they should accept, how they should be referred to

2. The woman's position is being actively undermined

This doesn't seem particularly progressive to me.

The conversation is mainly about transwomen because the subject of Anne's comments, what the thread is about, is a trans woman. And generally they are more about transwomen because womens rights are seen as being more at threat. But I should be just as free to give my opinion on trans issues as anyone else, even if it is a trans woman that's being discussed. Trans issues aren't something that should be exclusively discussed by women.

[Kizzy]

Boxy?

No. Scientific fact that there are masculine and feminine parts of the brain of which everyone is somewhere on the scale, making them more or less feminine/masculine in emotions and behaviour. Also affected by the chemistry in their body estrogen/ testosterone etc.

No. Anne hasn't always been a celebrity but clearly hasn't experienced career progression difficulty which either means she never attempted a career of sorts prior to being cast on the Chase to start one in television (I think she was a professional quiz champion or whatever they're called) or she did very well progressing up the ladder with no difficulty, which is no excuse for not looking beyond her own front yard.

Her celebrity status is a hard one to label as successful career progression because it's not really typical. It can literally happen overnight, especially these days. It's rare anyone really works their way for years into the business anymore.

I understand that, however there is no absolutes in brain brain type, you may have a man whos brain chemistry could be described as female, this is not definitive proof that he is trans is it?

Can intellect be measured as career progression? That most certainly isn't something that happens overnight.


For clarity on this issue, for my own peace of mind.
Let me get this right if I see M/F trans as female but not a woman or F/M trans as a male but not a man I'm transphobic?


I'll have to live with that then.

[user104658]

For clarity on this issue, for my own peace of mind.
Let me get this right if I see M/F trans as female but not a woman or F/M trans as a male but not a man I'm transphobic?

Well I wouldn't say it makes you transphobic but it does make you literally incorrect in terms of the actual terminology.

Male and Female are biological descriptions of sex. Man and Woman are social constructions of gender.

A Trans-woman can be sociologically a woman (arguably, I'm not saying everyone agrees with this), and not a man, but will always be biologically male.

You have it the wrong way round. And that's not opinion or "Mansplaining" - that is the actual terminology of established gender theory going back several decades.

[Kizzy]

Well I wouldn't say it makes you transphobic but it does make you literally incorrect in terms of the actual terminology.

Male and Female are biological descriptions of sex. Man and Woman are social constructions of gender.

A Trans-woman can be sociologically a woman (arguably, I'm not saying everyone agrees with this), and not a man, but will always be biologically male.

You have it the wrong way round. And that's not opinion or "Mansplaining" - that is the actual terminology of established gender theory going back several decades.

I haven't accused you of mansplaining no need to be so defensive, They are biological descriptions of gender, genetics are descriptions of sex.
A theory is just that... Theoretical, subject to change.
Simone De Beauvior stated 'One is not born, one is made a woman'.
It pays not to take that too literally :)

I don't believe that transfemales can be sociologically a woman as to my mind a whole life experience not in how you relate to the world and those in it but how the world and those in it relate to you.

[Northern Monkey]

Cis sounds like something from Starwars.I aint no Cis Lord.
It’s a ridiculous word.There is no need or reason for me to ‘identify’ as cis or any other made up bollox.
Human man will do fine.

[Marsh.]

Cis sounds like something from Starwars.I aint no Cis Lord.
It’s a ridiculous word.There is no need or reason for me to ‘identify’ as cis or any other made up bollox.
Human man will do fine.

You don't need to "identify" as cis.

It's just a descriptive word when discussing transsexuals to differentiate. Let's not make it into some diagnosis people are having thrust upon them. It's merely language.

[Jamie89]

Cis sounds like something from Starwars.I aint no Cis Lord.
It’s a ridiculous word.There is no need or reason for me to ‘identify’ as cis or any other made up bollox.
Human man will do fine.

It's not an identity. I'm amazed that people are so strung up on this word that means nothing other than 'non-trans' :laugh: And it's ironic that it's only purpose is to make conversation about trans topics easier, yet here we are.

It's like referring to yourself as a 'heterosexual man' to differentiate during a topic about homosexuality. It's meaning is literally no different to that. You don't need to 'identify' as heterosexual you just are. It's a description. This is currently a debate about nothing other than semantics.

(never mind, Marsh got there first :laugh: )

[Shaun]

It always seems to me there are more complaints about the complaints about transphobia, than there are complaints about transphobia... hence this thread :unsure:

[Cherie]

trans is enough of a descriptor, why do we need "cis" if you are non trans, it adds nothing expect a label where it isnt needed

[Shaun]

trans is enough of a descriptor, why do we need "cis" if you are non trans, it adds nothing expect a label where it isnt needed

I guess because people usually would fall into the habit of saying "normal" instead of cis, when referring to anyone who isn't transgender, thus rendering the alternative (trans) as 'abnormal'.

[Cherie]

I guess because people usually would fall into the habit of saying "normal" instead of cis, when referring to anyone who isn't transgender, thus rendering the alternative (trans) as 'abnormal'.

that makes sense I guess

[AnnieK]

Part of the problem on this forum at the moment is there are two distinct types of posters.
These transgender views and topics are a fairly recent issue, one of which some of the older members of the forum are not familiar with, new terminology, cis etc. Younger posters are more used to an all accepting (or more accepting) population. We all need to be more understanding and informed about issues. The problems that a lot of people have is the manner in which more informed members of this forum try to educate. I have many times typed out a question and then not posted because I cant be arsed with the "duh...[insert patronising insulting reply]" from a section of this forum

Like on this page, cherie posted a question, Shaun answered and Marsh answered. Both basically with the same information but one to the point end of the other with barbed patronising language. And you wonder why people bite?

[user104658]

trans is enough of a descriptor, why do we need "cis" if you are non trans, it adds nothing expect a label where it isnt neededYou could say the same about the word "heterosexual" or "straight" though, I guess... But people seem to be OK with those descriptions at this point.

To be fair for my own part... I do think there needs to be a word, but I also think "cis" is a phonetically daft word with a flimsy etymology and I wish it was a different word... ... ... But, its here now so its probably going to stick.

[Withano]

trans is enough of a descriptor, why do we need "cis" if you are non trans, it adds nothing expect a label where it isnt needed

It doesnt describe everybody though? Caitlin Jenner and Kendall Jenner walk in to a bar, the woman orders a drink.

The descriptor 'woman' is not helpful in that sentence. Whereas the descriptors 'transwoman' or 'ciswoman' would have been.

The place is going to go in to a meltdown when the bigender woman enters the bar.

[Withano]

cisgender
sɪsˈdʒɛndə/Submit
adjective
denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex.


You sort of dont get to choose if you are or not. Its just a word which does describe some people.

[jaxie]

Part of the problem on this forum at the moment is there are two distinct types of posters.
These transgender views and topics are a fairly recent issue, one of which some of the older members of the forum are not familiar with, new terminology, cis etc. Younger posters are more used to an all accepting (or more accepting) population. We all need to be more understanding and informed about issues. The problems that a lot of people have is the manner in which more informed members of this forum try to educate. I have many times typed out a question and then not posted because I cant be arsed with the "duh...[insert patronising insulting reply]" from a section of this forum

Like on this page, cherie posted a question, Shaun answered and Marsh answered. Both basically with the same information but one to the point end of the other with barbed patronising language. And you wonder why people bite?

That's a very good post and I agree with some of it. But I will disagree that some of us 'need educating'. As women we've spent a lifetime fighting for just the right to be treated as an equal and it still isn't happening, you've seen the recent news on gender pay issues to name but one. Now along comes another group telling we aren't even women anymore. No. This isn't even an issue about transgender or transsexual people. I don't have any problem with how someone wants/needs to live their life. I have a problem with someone trying to redefine my identity and trying to 'include' someone at my expense.

[Niamh.]

To be honest I don't think I have either. She always comes across as very polite in her language on this issue.

I don't think men understand this issue from a women's standpoint at all. But then they are coming from the sex with all the advantages and none of the discrimination.

Yeah I agree and that's not me trying to shut down men from having opinions or whatever more trying to explain why we as woman might feel more nervous about some of the issues to do with transgenders and worry about going backwards when it comes to stereo typing

Part of the problem on this forum at the moment is there are two distinct types of posters.
These transgender views and topics are a fairly recent issue, one of which some of the older members of the forum are not familiar with, new terminology, cis etc. Younger posters are more used to an all accepting (or more accepting) population. We all need to be more understanding and informed about issues. The problems that a lot of people have is the manner in which more informed members of this forum try to educate. I have many times typed out a question and then not posted because I cant be arsed with the "duh...[insert patronising insulting reply]" from a section of this forum

Like on this page, cherie posted a question, Shaun answered and Marsh answered. Both basically with the same information but one to the point end of the other with barbed patronising language. And you wonder why people bite?

yep totally agree

[Oliver_W]

The place is going to go in to a meltdown when the bigender woman enters the bar.

Nah, she'd just be referred to as a woman.

[Brillopad]

That's a very good post and I agree with some of it. But I will disagree that some of us 'need educating'. As women we've spent a lifetime fighting for just the right to be treated as an equal and it still isn't happening, you've seen the recent news on gender pay issues to name but one. Now along comes another group telling we aren't even women anymore. No. This isn't even an issue about transgender or transsexual people. I don't have any problem with how someone wants/needs to live their life. I have a problem with someone trying to redefine my identity and trying to 'include' someone at my expense.

Completely agree Jaxie. We should not be expected to tolerate others trying to redefine our identity. We know who we are and do not need to be dictated to by anyone about what we do or do not accept. It isn’t our responsibility to define others or to suffer any negative consequences as a result.

[Marsh.]

Nobody's dictating anything. Our opinions and viewpoint on transgender and how they are identified affects us ALL, not just women.

[Withano]

That's a very good post and I agree with some of it. But I will disagree that some of us 'need educating'. As women we've spent a lifetime fighting for just the right to be treated as an equal and it still isn't happening, you've seen the recent news on gender pay issues to name but one. Now along comes another group telling we aren't even women anymore. No. This isn't even an issue about transgender or transsexual people. I don't have any problem with how someone wants/needs to live their life. I have a problem with someone trying to redefine my identity and trying to 'include' someone at my expense.

Nobody has changed your identity. Your identity is the exact same. You were always cisgendered. Your gender and your sex always correlated, unlike bigender, agender, and transgender women. The word woman is a collective term for all groups of women (whether you like that or not), cisgendered is specifically designed to separate you from the other groups when needed.

[AnnieK]

Completely agree Jaxie. We should not be expected to tolerate others trying to redefine our identity. We know who we are and do not need to be dictated to by anyone about what we do or do not accept. It isn’t our responsibility to define others or to suffer any negative consequences as a result.

But as women we expected to be treated as equals and men had to be educated to do that so surely as times move on as women we should be more aware of discrimination and try to embrace change. We don't have to change our own definitions but we do need to recognise change in my opinion

[Brillopad]

Nobody's dictating anything. Our opinions and viewpoint on transgender and how they are identified affects us ALL, not just women.

Not to the same degree though. And I believe there are considerably more trans women than trans men. The resulting effects are completely different.

[Marsh.]

Not to the same degree though. And I believe there are considerably more trans women than trans men. The resulting effects are completely different.

It is men that are becoming trans women.

We have a say and a voice in the discussion. I won't be told I don't by you.

[Jamie89]

The trans group includes women whichever way you look at it, like if you don't consider transwomen to be women then you consider transmen to be women, so I don't think it should be something where it's women being pitted against transpeople, I cant see how that helps anybody. Everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day which is rights and inclusion within society and to be treated with respect etc, it shouldn't have to be a case of one vs the other (especially when both groups include each other).

[Brillopad]

But as women we expected to be treated as equals and men had to be educated to do that so surely as times move on as women we should be more aware of discrimination and try to embrace change. We don't have to change our own definitions but we do need to recognise change in my opinion

Recognising change is one thing but certain proposals such as self-identified non-transitioned men using ladies bathrooms is stamping over the rights of women on several levels. There are potential problems with that that concern many women and rightly so. This is not really the case for men though.

As far as I am aware Women have never even been asked about their views on this which I find astonishing considering the implications for them. It says a lot about how their views are valued by some including transwomen. It comes across as some seeing their rights as more important. I find the whole thing quite frustrating.

[Northern Monkey]

I don’t think (from what i’ve seen) that Niamh and Vicky are transphobic they just disagree with this self identification stuff where any pervy bloke can say they ‘identify’ as a woman to get into womens changing rooms,toilets,prisons and in womens equality roles.Also this idea of a ‘female penis’ and lesbians being transphobic if they won’t sleep with a male with a penis ‘identifying’ as a woman.I agree.
A man wearing a dress is still a male at the end of the day.They should’nt be able to encroach on womens private spaces.

[Cherie]

I don’t think (from what i’ve seen) that Niamh and Vicky are transphobic they just disagree with this self identification stuff where any pervy bloke can say they ‘identify’ as a woman to get into womens changing rooms,toilets,prisons and in womens equality roles.Also this idea of a ‘female penis’ and lesbians being transphobic if they won’t sleep with a male with a penis ‘identifying’ as a woman.I agree.
A man wearing a dress is still a male at the end of the day.They should’nt be able to encroach on womens private spaces.

That is how I read their feelings on it as well.

[Marsh.]

I don't think TS' problem was with their viewpoint per se. He says he doesn't believe they're transphobic.

But the language used when they're discussing it wouldn't ordinarily be tolerated if similar was used when discussing another minority group. :shrug:

[jaxie]

ThanksNobody has changed your identity. Your identity is the exact same. You were always cisgendered. Your gender and your sex always correlated, unlike bigender, agender, and transgender women. The word woman is a collective term for all groups of women (whether you like that or not), cisgendered is specifically designed to separate you from the other groups when needed.

The big difference between us Withano is if you or any other member found a term offensive or didn't like it I would immediately out of politeness stop using it. You on the other hand are delighting in using it. I don't have anything else to say to someone like that.

[jaxie]

The trans group includes women whichever way you look at it, like if you don't consider transwomen to be women then you consider transmen to be women, so I don't think it should be something where it's women being pitted against transpeople, I cant see how that helps anybody. Everyone wants the same thing at the end of the day which is rights and inclusion within society and to be treated with respect etc, it shouldn't have to be a case of one vs the other (especially when both groups include each other).

Not one of us has said that a trans woman shouldn't be included or treated with respect as a trans woman.

[Jamie89]

Not one of us has said that a trans woman shouldn't be included or treated with respect as a trans woman.

I wasn't meaning that you or anyone else didn't want them to be treated with respect, I was just trying to highlight my view that the things they want are the same things everyone wants (and I used things such as respect as examples). Rather than it needing to be a case of one group competing with another for rights etc. I felt like the rhetoric was turning into a women v trans thing, if someone is supporting of one then they're against the other, I was just trying to put across that I don't see it in that way is all.

[jaxie]

I wasn't meaning that you or anyone else didn't want them to be treated with respect, I was just trying to highlight my view that the things they want are the same things everyone wants (and I used things such as respect as examples). Rather than it needing to be a case of one group competing with another for rights etc. I felt like the rhetoric was turning into a women v trans thing, if someone is supporting of one then they're against the other, I was just trying to put across that I don't see it in that way is all.

It's not a v thing until you start to encroach on the identity of one group in a desire to give the other group what you perceive they want. Few of us get everything we want, particularly at the expense of others.

It's great to stand up for something you believe in but not at someone else's expense. You have to learn to listen to others too. If you miss the very strong consensus from women on these threads then you really aren't listening.

[Jamie89]

It's not a v thing until you start to encroach on the identity of one group in a desire to give the other group what you perceive they want. Few of us get everything we want, particularly at the expense of others.

It's great to stand up for something you believe in but not at someone else's expense. You have to learn to listen to others too. If you miss the very strong consensus from women on these threads then you really aren't listening.

I may disagree with some opinions but that doesn't mean I haven't listened to them. I've engaged a lot with women in these threads so I'm not sure where this is all coming from/what you're trying to say here? And I'm not sure where I've encroached on anyone's identity? If this is regarding the 'cis' conversation I don't know how else I can put across that the use of the word is unrelated to labeling someones gender. It's a gender non-specific term. And I'm not saying that people should get what they want at the expense of others, I'm not sure where that's come from either/what I've said that would suggest otherwise?

[Brillopad]

It is men that are becoming trans women.

We have a say and a voice in the discussion. I won't be told I don't by you.

And I won’t be told by you that this group’s feelings and wishes should get priority over those of non-trans women. Neither will I be accepting the description as a cis woman. Nonsense.

[jaxie]

I may disagree with some opinions but that doesn't mean I haven't listened to them. I've engaged a lot with women in these threads so I'm not sure where this is all coming from/what you're trying to say here? And I'm not sure where I've encroached on anyone's identity? If this is regarding the 'cis' conversation I don't know how else I can put across that the use of the word is unrelated to labeling someones gender. It's a gender non-specific term. And I'm not saying that people should get what they want at the expense of others, I'm not sure where that's come from either/what I've said that would suggest otherwise?

When I say you in that post I'm speaking more generally not specifically. When you when we do this or that. Although you have brought in the cis thing I don't feel you've been pushing it.

You, as in you personally, are engaging in discussion and you are a lot more polite than many posters about it. But I do get a vibe you are not really listening and understanding the problem.

This has nothing to do with trans prejudice and everything to do with the rights of women. When I say women I mean those born a woman not those choosing it, not bananas, women.

[Jamie89]

When I say you I'm speaking generally not specifically. When you when we do this or that.

You, as in you personally, are engaging in discussion and you are a lot more polite than many posters about it. But I do get a vibe you are not really listening and understanding the problem.

This has nothing to do with trans prejudice and everything to do with the rights of women. When I say women I mean those born a woman not those choosing it, not bananas, women.

Ok I get you, I think we'll just have to disagree in that case then because I think I do listen and understand those other views (and have had discussions at length about those problems) unless it can be pointed out where I haven't in which case I'd happily discuss.

On your last point though, that's what I was getting at earlier with the original post when I said that trans people are included within the group of women whichever way it's looked at, because if you're referring specifically to women who were born as women, then that would include trans men. It's not a one or the other when it comes to women and trans people. However I do consider transwomen to be women (albeit women who are different/not 'the same as') so when talking about women's rights I take into consideration transwomens rights as well, not 'instead of' though. But just because I disagree on that it doesn't mean I'm not listening to or misunderstanding the opposing view, I just hold a different opinion to it.

[Maru]

I'd always been under the impression that the brain's spacial differences developed more according to how we used it, not necessarily by biology. Have we separated genetic brain development from what is environmental/individually ingrained...

And the way I see it, some people have higher aptitude in certain areas, so perhaps more connections are made... but for example, if you have never developed a certain skill or trait, then that part lays in atrophy... and developing, encouraging new habits, it takes a lot of repetition, I guess to map learn new behavioral patterns....

But our personalities are a complex thing. They're likely dependent on several dependencies, and some areas may strongly reinforce certain aspects, so different to remap in that sense....

As far as biology, yes, they've seen differences between brains, but I was under the impression that was individualized and didn't necessarily mean there was a cause, it could be instead be a symptom...

For example, if I have an addiction, my pleasure centers are going to look different than other folk.

If someone is suffering from dysphoria and is constantly dealing with the discomfort of their identity, then why would it not make sense they may align or develop their behaviors according to chosen sex... and as such, that those brain characteristics may grow accordingly.

I sometimes sound like a Latina, and have certain characteristic of that speech as those were the female peers I associated with... but then I don't think that because my speech patterns show in brain images that that suddenly means I'm full Mexican. :laugh: It just means my environment shaped my thinking, my mannerisms and the way I feel comfortable communicating with others...

The thing is, when many people transitions, it doesn't end the dysphoria. It helps to alleviate it, but it doesn't end the symptoms. That's why I err on the side of caution when it comes to "brain scans" as being the proof in the pudding. I think more research needs to be done into why there is a dysphoria in the first place... not simply, oh, there's more female centers and thus female... there's a lot we still don't really understand about the human brain... and if it down to mental illness, then we need to know what it is, so we can treat it better actually and improve the livelihood of those who are suffering with it... but when these discussions are had, they are treated as "transphobic" by activists for not falling in line with their subscribed thought processes...

I think on SD in particular, it feels like an inquisition sometimes... and I think Nom and Vicky, maybe they were like me, did their own research in their own time in an attempt to understand why there are so many difficult feelings there when simply having a discussion... and what I've found does not necessarily paint a pretty picture of where we are going as a society, when discussions about science are labeled as counter-productive, anti-insert thing, pro-male white supremacy, etc... there's an uglier side to this activism, and I think--because these issues are so close to home to them--some folk would rather ignore that this exists and fosters a looming sense of anxiety when it comes to these discussions... because there are political ideologies trying to entrench themselves with this activist... and for better or worse, they have hijacked the discussion which I think has distracted from what is actually helpful to those suffering versus what they'd like to accomplish instead... but yes, that is the short version, and I think people who are talking about what they think is evidence, would not like to be straw-manned into one of those side conversations about what is decency, what is socially acceptable in discussion and so on...

[bots]

Bang on Maru :clap1:

Pass me a taco

[DemolitionRed]

In this instance everyone in the room did know, having spent some time as the opposite sex is not a dirty secret either.

Well as it happened, everyone in the room couldn't care less.

Being born female isn't a dirty secret but its up to the individual about sharing such information. Having someone else broadcast personal details about a persons gender is unnecessary and in his case damaging.

[Beso]

Serious question...you know if someone loses a leg they can get that phantom leg syndrom..which i have been told hurts like buggery.Does anyone know if well, you know..phantom boaby syndrome...is it a thing?

[Brillopad]

In today's Metro a group of feminists invaded a men-only swimming session at a pool, used the men's changing rooms and when challenged stated they self identified as males.

They are calling for women to be consulted about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act and they were highlighting the ridiculous and dangerous move towards self-identification. Well done them I say - about time someone did something like this to highlight these issues.

[Kizzy]

Fair play I guess... I haven't heard anything about a women self identifying as a man, I wonder if it happens?

[Vicky.]

In today's Metro a group of feminists invaded a men-only swimming session at a pool, used the men's changing rooms and when challenged stated they self identified as males.

They are calling for women to be consulted about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act and they were highlighting the ridiculous and dangerous move towards self-identification. Well done them I say - about time someone did something like this to highlight these issues.

Yes, this is happening every friday apparently. Man Friday. Tempted to buy one of the badges actually, its a fantastic idea and does show up this 'self ID' nonsense for what it is. I kind of know Amy (the one who was in the photoshoots in the press who actually went topless during the mens session) and she has done a lot of interviews about this today and yesterday.

I am considering taking part in the Hampstead Heath one when the weather is warmer. Given the womens pond is now open to 'anyone who identifies as a woman' (despite there being a mixed sex pool anyway) its only fair that the mens is open to anyone who identifies as a man, when entering the pool.

I see this as the only way to stop the madness tbh, women can shout about it til they are blue in the face but until it affects men, nothing will happen.

And this is NOT about actual trans people. Its about Swim Englands ridiculous guidance that states that anyone can identify as either sex and use their areas..and anyone who complains must be 'educated' by the staff, which is clearly bonkers.

[Withano]

Fair play I guess... I haven't heard anything about a women self identifying as a man, I wonder if it happens?

... of course it happens :suspect:

[Kizzy]

I haven't heard of any, I was just reading this article it's very interesting

https://theconversation.com/why-self-identification-shouldnt-be-the-only-thing-that-defines-our-gender-57924

[Withano]

I haven't heard of any, I was just reading this article it's very interesting

https://theconversation.com/why-self-identification-shouldnt-be-the-only-thing-that-defines-our-gender-57924

Did you not watch Deana's series of big brother? What do you think Luke A (the winner) was before a man that identified as a man?!

[Vicky.]

Luke was actually transsexual though. Big difference between being transsexual and simply 'identifying' as the opposite sex.

[Kizzy]

Luke was actually transsexual though. Big difference between being transsexual and simply 'identifying' as the opposite sex.

Cheers sis... I mean cis ;)

[Withano]

Luke was actually transsexual though. Big difference between being transsexual and simply 'identifying' as the opposite sex.

I'd imagine most that 'identify' as the opposite sex either want to, or plan to have a sex change... unless they're being willfully obnoxious to make some sort of point..

[Kizzy]

I'd imagine most that 'identify' as the opposite sex either want to, or plan to have a sex change... unless they're being willfully obnoxious to make some sort of point..

Well not really some people like to appear as the opposite sex without ever fully transitioning don't they?

Transexuals, transvestites..

[Vicky.]

I'd imagine most that 'identify' as the opposite sex either want to, or plan to have a sex change... unless they're being willfully obnoxious to make some sort of point..

You would be wrong. Thats kind of the point of the protests. 'Trans' is a useless term and means nowt. Sex segregated areas are segregated by sex, not 'gender'. Transsexuals, fine. Any bloke saying he is a woman(usually claiming to be a lesbian too)...nope

[Northern Monkey]

Cheers sis... I mean cis ;)

:laugh2:

[Withano]

Well not really some people like to appear as the opposite sex without ever fully transitioning don't they?

Transexuals, transvestites..

I mean, a transexual is defined by the fact that they transistion their sex? So..
Do transvestites identify as the other sex? I dont know much about them tbf. Seems retro.

[Vicky.]

I mean, a transexual is defined by the fact that they transistion their sex? So..
Do transvestites identify as the other sex? I dont know much about them tbf. Seems retro.

According to stonewalls definition of trans, transvestites are included. Along with drag queens, masculine women, feminine men, and so on. Thats what I mean by 'transgender' is a useless term. I am classed as bloody trans.

There is a huge difference between someone under the huge 'transgender' umbrella, and someone who is actually transsexual.

And yes, a lot of transvestites say they are women and want access to womens spaces...part of the fetish I guess for some. And many 'normal' guys just claim to 'feel like' women and expect others to play along.These kinds of people are who I want to keep out. Not transsexuals.

[Crimson Dynamo]

if i was in charge of a leisure centre it would be cocks in there and fannies in there

any other bother and your banned

end of

[Kizzy]

I mean, a transexual is defined by the fact that they transistion their sex? So..
Do transvestites identify as the other sex? I dont know much about them tbf. Seems retro.

they don't all fully transition it's personal choice isn't it?

[Alf]

if i was in charge of a leisure centre it would be cocks in there and fannies in there

any other bother and your banned

end ofSounds like a sane, common sense system to me.

[Vicky.]

if i was in charge of a leisure centre it would be cocks in there and fannies in there

any other bother and your banned

end of

:joker: This is how things should be really isn't it. Signs on the doors 'penis people this way' 'vulva people that way'. Would be a lot easier. though tbh, male and female are the same thing really. No idea how so many cannot understand that it is separated by bloody sex, not some random feeling in your head. Once someone has actually transitioned, fair enough. But until then, no penises in female spaces.

[Northern Monkey]

they don't all fully transition it's personal choice isn't it?

“Fully transition” ?

What?do some just get the bolloxs cut off and call it a day?

[Withano]

they don't all fully transition it's personal choice isn't it?

I feel like the conversation is more about individuals which makes general umbrella words meaningless. I'd take a common sense approach, I don't personally think a drag queen or a transvestite should be allowed in a womans area unless they were actively planning on transistioning in the near future. In an ideal world, there would be a third changing room / bathroom option.

[Alf]

Would you be happy for Harvey Wienstein to have access to the female changing room, if he decided to transition?

[Vicky.]

I feel like the conversation is more about individuals which makes general umbrella words meaningless. I'd take a common sense approach, I don't personally think a drag queen or a transvestite should be allowed in a womans area unless they were actively planning on transistioning in the near future. In an ideal world, there would be a third changing room / bathroom option.

Indeed. I have been saying this for ****ing ages. Where possible, add a unisex option.

Until then, men will have to accept gender non conforming men in their spaces tbh. Who cares if the guy next to you has a skirt on or whatever? Hes still a bloke.

Even if someone is 'planning on transitioning', until they actually transition, they use the correct space for their sex.

Transsexuals should have the option to use the space of the sex have tried to become. But otherwise, nope nope nope. Which is why I say no to 'self ID'.

[Brillopad]

Would you be happy for Harvey Wienstein to have access to the female changing room, if he decided to transition?

Good question! There are lots of Weinsteins out there.

[Withano]

Would you be happy for Harvey Wienstein to have access to the female changing room, if he decided to transition?

Well lesbian sex offenders would be allowed in the bathroom? And gay sex offenders would be allowed in yours? Not much you can do to stop that?

[Vicky.]

Good question! There are lots of Weinsteins out there.

Its people like that who will take advantage of businesses adopting this self ID thing.