can we talk about the elephant in the room please...?...

[Cherie]

By suggesting that people bringing up forum members should retrieve a harsher punishment was me bringing up drama?!

It was you who quite ironically brought up other forum members in response to that.

oh please stop scuttling away, we all know who you were referring to, you can try the "who me" innocent act, but no body with half a brain cell is buying it.

Goodnight

[Withano]

oh please stop scuttling away, we all know who you were referring to, you can try the "who me" innocent act, but no body with half a brain cell is buying it.

Goodnight

I literally responded with i would deserve an infraction in response to your example. What kind of a discussion were you hoping for.

Actually seems that you were hoping id bite and now youre annoyed that i instead agreed with you.

[Vicky.]

A few people are guilty of getting personal over and over in SD. Also entering threads and not even attempting to engage with the actual topic and just making snarky comments or basically..turning the thread into a thread about themselves.

I am kind of hoping if we do do this separate mods for different sections.I don't 'draw the short straw' and get serious debates...the forum is just such a mess and my attempts to sort it out failed...just made people moan more and such and it really did seem like I could not win whatever as people were wanting harsher punishments dished out (for example a straight ban from SD immediately) but when I did do that, I was wrong as what people really wanted is harsh punishments for other members, but not for themselves. Which I guess is understandable but whatever policy is there, it applies to ALL.

[Cherie]

A few people are guilty of getting personal over and over in SD. Also entering threads and not even attempting to engage with the actual topic and just making snarky comments or basically..turning the thread into a thread about themselves.

I am kind of hoping if we do do this separate mods for different sections.I don't 'draw the short straw' and get serious debates...the forum is just such a mess and my attempts to sort it out failed...just made people moan more and such and it really did seem like I could not win whatever as people were wanting harsher punishments dished out (for example a straight ban from SD immediately) but when I did do that, I was wrong as what people really wanted is harsh punishments for other members, but not for themselves. Which I guess is understandable but whatever policy is there, it applies to ALL.

Vicky I would be very happy with you in SD, you are reasonable and erudite, and I think any infractions and bans you hand out are pretty fair, even the ones I have received myself which I know are from you..fair dues I deserved them :laugh:

[Withano]

A few people are guilty of getting personal over and over in SD. Also entering threads and not even attempting to engage with the actual topic and just making snarky comments or basically..turning the thread into a thread about themselves.



I honestly think this is the biggest issue, obviously anybody will respond if they are brought up directly or indirectly, and obviously a few of their allies will too (that applies for the BB section as well). It will take the thread offtopic for pages, or even days.

I just think this getting a harsher punishment would discourage members from doing it so often.

[Cherie]

How many mods are praying they don't get SD...

[Tom4784]

While we're making changes on our side AND listening to criticism, I think it's only fair to expect some things to change from the members as well.

IF the appeals section is brought back (I've changed my tune on it and I really think Appeals should be brought back) people should have no excuse to bring up infractions or deleted posts in threads as we delete posts to clean threads and bringing either up just means we have to clean the thread again and again. My suggestion that, IF the appeals are brought back, we need an understanding with the members that they'll use that section to voice complaints (SENSIBLE COMPLAINTS!) and make appeals and that if they don't and they bring up infractions in the wrong place, they may be harshly infracted. Is this unreasonable? Members get an area to voice their concerns but they have to agree to keep it to that area and for it to not spill out across the forum.

Secondly, witch hunts against the mods need to stop, I think every long serving mod at this point (but particularly myself, Niamh and Vicky who have been targeted in the past by permabanned members) have experienced what feels like to be attacked from all sides, it doesn't feel good, it's not right and we don't deserve it. On Tuesday, I got into a heated discussion and when I realised it got heated, I decided to remove myself from the discussion, I was actually offline for most of the afternoon as I went to the Cinema (I watched Isle of Dogs, I'd highly recommend it) and to come back to see a deleted thread that had basically descended into insult after insult towards me was tough and it happened again last night.

'Dezzy' is not just a name on the internet, I am a human being, I make mistakes and I'm not perfect and I don't get paid to mod this website, none of us do, this is something we do in our free time. We are not professionals, we just do what we can. I don't want respect, I just want to be treated like a human being. If you are upset with me, talk to me over a PM or if you don't want to talk to me, voice your complaints in a reasonable manner to another mod or admin. I'll admit that I'm acerbic at times, you will never get me acting like a perfect customer service rep (I'll try to do better) but If you talk to me away from the drama and the theatrics and without hostility you will find that I'm a reasonable person that will make time to hear you out. Just talk to me, Don't make me feel like I felt yesterday, I felt like I was being hounded off the forum and no one should feel like that regardless of if they are a mod or a member. If you feel frustrated with me, bring it to me attention in a PM and we'll talk about it, just don't make me feel attacked from all sides. Is that unreasonable? Let me know.

This might kickstart an argument, i hope it doesn't but I felt like I needed to say this. Let's talk like the adults we are.

[Tom4784]

The main problem I have with the different mods moderating different sections approach is , if this were to happen, I'd probably get Chat & Games as my section so what would happen if, late at night when I'm typically the only mod on, a massive argument happens in SD? There would have to be an understanding that there would be some leeway in it.

As for who should moderate SD, the idea I offered in the towers was to pick up two new mods WITHOUT political leanings and thus couldn't be accused of bias and such when it comes to moderating debates.

[Vicky.]

Yeah I would agree that a condition of appeals being brought back really must be that its only used for genuine appeals, when you think an infraction is actually unfair, and explain why you think its unfair, do not just come in ranting.

Last time, we had people starting threads for literally every infraction they got, even when it was clearly deserved, which is ridiculous and timewasting. We also took a lot of abuse, but I think a degree of anger is understandable at times and we did let a lot of things slide in there as it was directed at us, and not members. Kind of like how when people insult me I just tend to delete the post (or sometimes leave it) rather than dish out bans, because I do think that as a mod, I should be able to take it tbh. Sometimes I reply but usually I just leave it alone. Which is kind of nothing to do with what I was talking about tbh but since I have already typed it out I will leave it :laugh:

Also it would be great if this whole episode made things better. Obviously with so any different personalities and opinions things will get heated sometimes, but it kind of feels like the past few months has just been a huge argument, with pettiness from both sides. Like, a thread cannot be made without at least one member coming in to snipe or bring up previous threads/arguments and such.

Another thing I think is worth mentioning while we are all being adults and getting it all out...is the continuous turning of threads to one topic. As a daft example so it does not look like I am talking about one member or anything (theres actually a fair few who do it anyway) a thread is started about Trump, and someone who is passionate about monkeys comes in and starts talking about monkeys when its nothing at all to do with the thread topic. Then goes into a thread about the russian poisoning and starts going on about monkeys. Yes, some people are very passionate about single issues but, keep that issue to a thread about that issue?

Obviously most of this applies to serious debates mainly.

[T*]

is there a rundown of what’s happened why isn’t there any mods anymore is this the purge

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

y’all really think i’m reading these dissertations

https://i.imgur.com/twDqyzZ.jpg

[T*]

*pushes firewire down a set of stairs*

[Vicky.]

Sorry scott, I don't know how to water my post down to a gif or something :laugh:

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

Sorry scott, I don't know how to water my post down to a gif or something :laugh:

sarcastic bitch :laugh:

[Smithy]

is there a rundown of what’s happened why isn’t there any mods anymore is this the purge

Their names are just black now you illiterate little ******

[T*]

Their names are just black now you illiterate little ******

was this intentional or was it just a part of the site breaking

[Rob!]

While we're making changes on our side AND listening to criticism, I think it's only fair to expect some things to change from the members as well.

IF the appeals section is brought back (I've changed my tune on it and I really think Appeals should be brought back) people should have no excuse to bring up infractions or deleted posts in threads as we delete posts to clean threads and bringing either up just means we have to clean the thread again and again. My suggestion that, IF the appeals are brought back, we need an understanding with the members that they'll use that section to voice complaints (SENSIBLE COMPLAINTS!) and make appeals and that if they don't and they bring up infractions in the wrong place, they may be harshly infracted. Is this unreasonable? Members get an area to voice their concerns but they have to agree to keep it to that area and for it to not spill out across the forum.

Secondly, witch hunts against the mods need to stop, I think every long serving mod at this point (but particularly myself, Niamh and Vicky who have been targeted in the past by permabanned members) have experienced what feels like to be attacked from all sides, it doesn't feel good, it's not right and we don't deserve it. On Tuesday, I got into a heated discussion and when I realised it got heated, I decided to remove myself from the discussion, I was actually offline for most of the afternoon as I went to the Cinema (I watched Isle of Dogs, I'd highly recommend it) and to come back to see a deleted thread that had basically descended into insult after insult towards me was tough and it happened again last night.

'Dezzy' is not just a name on the internet, I am a human being, I make mistakes and I'm not perfect and I don't get paid to mod this website, none of us do, this is something we do in our free time. We are not professionals, we just do what we can. I don't want respect, I just want to be treated like a human being. If you are upset with me, talk to me over a PM or if you don't want to talk to me, voice your complaints in a reasonable manner to another mod or admin. I'll admit that I'm acerbic at times, you will never get me acting like a perfect customer service rep (I'll try to do better) but If you talk to me away from the drama and the theatrics and without hostility you will find that I'm a reasonable person that will make time to hear you out. Just talk to me, Don't make me feel like I felt yesterday, I felt like I was being hounded off the forum and no one should feel like that regardless of if they are a mod or a member. If you feel frustrated with me, bring it to me attention in a PM and we'll talk about it, just don't make me feel attacked from all sides. Is that unreasonable? Let me know.

This might kickstart an argument, i hope it doesn't but I felt like I needed to say this. Let's talk like the adults we are.

All of that seems perfectly reasonable to me. I'm certain the mods that are on here a lot get the brunt of a lot of the **** that kicks off and I'm sure it's not easy. Those conditions over the appeals sound completely fair. I wasn't around much when appeals were last in play so I don't know how they really work. The only thing I would say is as long as there is transparency from the mod's parts on why a decision has been made, there should never be any issues.

Literally, my only issue with the forum at the moment is the fact that some members get a much easier time in terms of bans than others do, but I also realise that that seems to be an argument that frequently comes from both sides. You only need to look at what happened at the start of the last CBB with all the India threads to know how quickly issues that actively affect many people on this forum can flare up into pages and pages full of arguments. I'm not saying I'm innocent in that at all, far from it, but there are members who seem to come onto the forum specifically to cause arguments and voice things that they know full well are going to get a reaction. There's a couple in particular that the mods MUST know are pretty disliked by a lot of the forum and it shouldn't be that difficult to see why. I'm not trying to point anybody out in particular, but it is obvious. I think a lot of the aftermaths then revolve around why "that person hasn't been punished as harshly as me", or "why are they still allowed to post here" and if appeals would be a way of rectifying that and make members feel like they're being heard out and listened to, it should be a much more pleasant on site environment.

I don't know if the mods think that the decisions that are made are explained to us so there should be no cause for arguments, but I would respectfully say that it sometimes does not come across that way, and it sometimes feels like our complaints are not being paid attention too and nothing changes. I do wonder if that's a lack of support from the admin to the mods though and seeing as we only have the mods in here to talk to at the moment, it's not much of a jump to reach that conclusion.

Everything I've said here was meant to sound considered and respectful, so I hope it does, if not I apologise. :)

[Tom4784]

I think when it comes to bans, it's important to remember that bans are dependent on how many points a member has.

I'm going to say something here, I feel like it could lead to an argument but I feel like I need to say it. All the bans from yesterday's drama came from infractions I gave. Niamh and I drew a line in the thread in question after it was cleaned and after seeing the same arguments and attacks were still ongoing after being warned not to, I simply gave everyone that was involved a three point infraction, this was enough to knock some people into a automatic one day ban and for someone else, it was enough to put them over the threshold for a week long ban but not everyone that was infracted got banned because for a few people, it was one of their first offences. I decided to give out those infractions because I wasn't really involved in that argument aside from my name being dragged into it. I gave infractions to people that were opposed to me and people who were arguing for me and all the infractions were because people kept going back to a previously deleted arguments. When I'm modding the thread, the only thing that comes into play is whether or not they are breaking the rules, I'm not tougher on people I dislike and I'm not softer on people I like. Everyone gets the same treatment when I mod.

I say this because I want to give context to the situation and it's a good example of why it feels like some people get banned while others don't. It's all dependant on how many infraction points you have.

[Rob!]

I think when it comes to bans, it's important to remember that bans are dependent on how many points a member has.

I'm going to say something here, I feel like it could lead to an argument but I feel like I need to say it. All the bans from yesterday's drama came from infractions I gave. Niamh and I drew a line in the thread in question after it was cleaned and after seeing the same arguments and attacks were still ongoing after being warned not to, I simply gave everyone that was involved a three point infraction, this was enough to knock some people into a automatic one day ban and for someone else, it was enough to put them over the threshold for a week long ban but not everyone that was infracted got banned because for a few people, it was one of their first offences. I decided to give out those infractions because I wasn't really involved in that argument aside from my name being dragged into it. I gave infractions to people that were opposed to me and people who were arguing for me and all the infractions were because people kept going back to a previously deleted arguments. When I'm modding the thread, the only thing that comes into play is whether or not they are breaking the rules, I'm not tougher on people I dislike and I'm not softer on people I like. Everyone gets the same treatment when I mod.

I say this because I want to give context to the situation and it's a good example of why it feels like some people get banned while others don't. It's all dependant on how many infraction points you have.

Okay, I understand that. Is that really a fair way for the infraction system to work then? You gave out those infractions yesterday in order to give out the same punishment to everyone, and yet, yes he's my mate so I would argue this, but one person ended up with a harsher punishment despite the fact that you were trying to be fair.

[Withano]

So is it like 9 points = 1 day
10 points 2 days
11 points 1 week
12 points 1 month
?

[Morgan.]

was this intentional or was it just a part of the site breaking

This tbh

[Tom4784]

So is it like 9 points = 1 day
10 points 2 days
11 points 1 week
12 points 1 month
?

9 points - 1 day
15 - 2 days
21 - 7 days
28 - 7 days
35 - 2 weeks
41 - 2 weeks
47 - 3 weeks
53 - 3 weeks
999 - Permaban

One month, three month and permabans are the only bans we choose to give out.

[Tom4784]

Okay, I understand that. Is that really a fair way for the infraction system to work then? You gave out those infractions yesterday in order to give out the same punishment to everyone, and yet, yes he's my mate so I would argue this, but one person ended up with a harsher punishment despite the fact that you were trying to be fair.

But then, if he didn't have so many points to begin with, it wouldn't have knocked him into a ban. If you get infracted frequently, you'll always be at risk of a ban. It's essentially a snowball system, break the rules too much and you'll always be at risk of being banned.

[Withano]

9 points - 1 day
15 - 2 days
21 - 7 days
28 - 7 days
35 - 2 weeks
41 - 2 weeks
47 - 3 weeks
53 - 3 weeks
999 - Permaban

One month, three month and permabans are the only bans we choose to give out.

That seems fair tbh... Like it must take some doing to rack up that many

But then like if somebody had 25, finished their week ban, and then got a one-point-infraction for something silly - would that get them another week ban?

[Tom4784]

That seems fair tbh... Like it must take some doing to rack up that many

But then like if somebody had 25, finished their week ban, and then got a one-point-infraction for something silly - would that get them another week ban?

Depends on how long the Infraction lasts for, if an infraction expires before they commit their next rule break then their next infraction may not knock them into a ban otherwise they would just be banned again.

The system is basically meant to deter someone from repeated offences, I believe.

[Twosugars]

how many points per an infraction?
and when does an infarction expire?

[Twosugars]

I got one last night, for being off-topic (defending Dezzy). I'm very pleased with myself, don't mind getting punished if the cause is just

[Ashley.]

I got one last night, for being off-topic (defending Dezzy). I'm very pleased with myself, don't mind getting punished if the cause is just

Ungrateful little devil!

[Withano]

Depends on how long the Infraction lasts for, if an infraction expires before they commit their next rule break then their next infraction may not knock them into a ban otherwise they would just be banned again.

The system is basically meant to deter someone from repeated offences, I believe.

Probably about to piss a load of people off, but it seems like a good system to me tbh.
I’d imagine people hate it because some probably have on occaision received a lengthy ban for what looks like something silly, when actually they just have several in-date infractions

[Twosugars]

Ungrateful little devil!

:wavey: pleased to meet you

[Rob!]

Probably about to piss a load of people off, but it seems like a good system to me tbh.
I’d imagine people hate it because some probably have on occaision received a lengthy ban for what looks like something silly, when actually they just have several in-date infractions

Exactly, which seems ridiculous to me. Especially when two people are in an argument and one is behaving far worse than the other.

[Ashley.]

:wavey: pleased to meet you

That was to Dezzy, not you. :laugh:

[Twosugars]

That was to Dezzy, not you. :laugh:

duh
but, but... oh ok, it's late :laugh:

[Withano]

Exactly, which seems ridiculous to me. Especially when two people are in an argument and one is behaving far worse than the other.

If they behave worse than the other, they should get more points than the other I agree, I missed the whole drama of it all, but it did seem hastily dealt with perhaps if every single person just got a default 3 points for being there


- but I mean, surely people can correctly assume whether they’re over 9 points or coming close to it, and they should use that hunch as a way to detain themselves somewhat?! maybe a notification or warning sign could be added for them? as a way to remind them to wait until a few infractions expire before they seek justice.

I know that discussions been had before - about how we dont show points anymore because people would wait until they were in the clear before breaking rules... but it would make tibb seem nicer, even if it was all fake!

[Rob!]

If they behave worse than the other, they should get more points than the other I agree, I missed the whole drama of it all, but it did seem hastily dealt with perhaps if every single person just got a default 3 points for being there


- but I mean, surely people can correctly assume whether they’re over 9 points or coming close to it, and they should use that hunch as a way to detain themselves somewhat?! maybe a notification or warning sign could be added for them? as a way to remind them to wait until a few infractions expire before they seek justice.

I know there is a reasonable logic behind the theory that “members should just obey the rules” but using my own history with infractions as an example, when someone is being blatantly bigoted and it’s clear they’re deliberately doing so, it’s going to make me stand up for whichever minority I might be a part of, homophobia for example. When said members are allowed to continue posting the same sort of thing and yet other people seem to be the ones getting infracted and banned, it doesn’t seem fair at all, in fact it just looks like they are being allowed to continue with their behaviour, so I don’t see how it can not be expected that arguments are going to break out?

[Ashley.]

It's a lose-lose situation, though. Give one member a more severe punishment than another, and it's considered unfair. Give both members the same punishment, it's still considered unfair.

[Rob!]

It's a lose-lose situation, though. Give one member a more severe punishment than another, and it's considered unfair. Give both members the same punishment, it's still considered unfair.

Exactly. Which, in itself, would suggest that maybe the current system doesn't work?

[Withano]

I know there is a reasonable logic behind the theory that “members should just obey the rules” but using my own history with infractions as an example, when someone is being blatantly bigoted and it’s clear they’re deliberately doing so, it’s going to make me stand up for whichever minority I might be a part of, homophobia for example. When said members are allowed to continue posting the same sort of thing and yet other people seem to be the ones getting infracted and banned, it doesn’t seem fair at all, in fact it just looks like they are being allowed to continue with their behaviour, so I don’t see how it can not be expected that arguments are going to break out?

I’d like to think you wouldn’t be infracted for that unless you insult the person who you’re arguing with? And the person you’re arguing with would be infracted for their homophobia?
But if that sort of thing aint happening, then I agree, its one of the things that needs to be changed.

Its the ‘baiting’ infraction that winds me up. So many members have hundreds, or thousands (literally) of baiting posts :suspect:

[Rob!]

I’d like to think you wouldn’t be infracted for that unless you insult the person who you’re arguing with? And the person you’re arguing with would be infracted for their homophobia?
But if that sort of thing aint happening, then I agree, its one of the things that needs to be changed.

Its the ‘baiting’ infraction that winds me up. So many members have hundreds, or thousands (literally) of baiting posts :suspect:

Oh, I won't deny, certainly I have been infracted for insulting members, but I haven't done it with a disregard for the rules, it's because of simple defence. If someone is being outright homophobic with complete disregard for a large part of the forum, I don't see why they should be granted with any respect. Maybe that's wrong of me and lowering myself to their level, but I think that their offence is worse.

[Ashley.]

Exactly. Which, in itself, would suggest that maybe the current system doesn't work?

But can a system be applied to the forum that would be universally accepted by all members? The system now I believe works quite well, I mean I've gone quite a long time without receiving an infraction and there are probably quite a few others (perhaps a majority) that could say the same... To change a system that seems to be working for the majority of the forum would be to please a few.

[Jordan.]

The system is completely fair, if you don't want a longer ban than others don't keep repeat offending, simple.

[Ross.]

This thread is literally this gif

https://i.imgur.com/gjHXYbX.gif

[RileyH]

The system is completely fair, if you don't want a longer ban than others don't keep repeat offending, simple.

tbh

[Ninastar]

My main issue isnt so much with S&D as I have a pretty strange/weird view of things in comparison to the majority of people on TiBB... but my main issue is of course allowing previously permabanned members to come back.

It pisses me off that there has been plenty of people who have been 'permabanned' for doing really ****ty, awful things and then are allowed back on within months. Whats the point in a 'permaban' if its not... well permanent?

[Ninastar]

and I know the same few people will be shouting OBSESSED LMAO!!!! But i dont give a ****. Plenty of people have messaged me saying they feel the same and some people dont want to post anymore because of it

[Withano]

The system is completely fair, if you don't want a longer ban than others don't keep repeat offending, simple.

Im gonna have to agree. Especially with the points:ban explanation that Dezzy mentioned on the last page. Those points are more than fair.

[reece(:]

I agree with the system being fine as is :clap1:

[Maru]

Honestly shocked that this board is all global moderators. That's a problem. There should be 1-2 global moderators who can cover in separate sections if there is a gap ... but there absolutely should not be 7-8 people modding the entire board. Then there's no sense of ownership or authority for those sections and no accountability. There's also no way to moderate consistently when you have 4-5 cooks in the kitchen.

And they should have a choice too what they will moderate... putting Vicky back into a section that's made her miserable would be emotionally abusive imo :laugh:

[Tom4784]

how many points per an infraction?
and when does an infarction expire?

It depends on the offense, we have set infractions like 'insults to other members' which we can just click on or custom infractions for more unique rule breaks.

Insults will typically be between 1-5 points depending on the frequency and severity of it. Multis typically come with hefty infractions and if it's done while someone is already banned, we tend to extend those bans.

I think the most infractions points I've ever given (except for 999 points for Multis) is probably about 10-15? Can't remember what for but it was quite serious.

[Tom4784]

Probably about to piss a load of people off, but it seems like a good system to me tbh.
I’d imagine people hate it because some probably have on occaision received a lengthy ban for what looks like something silly, when actually they just have several in-date infractions

That's why we get a lot of complaints tbh, a lot of people think we've chosen to ban them for one thing when it's the system that bans them for going over the threshold.

If people break rules too often, any offense can send them into a ban.

[Vicky.]

I remember when I gave a poster 1 point..and it knocked them into a 3 week ban D: I was planning on being soft and making it shorter given it really was a minor thing but then they sent me a PM telling me to kill myself. So, nope.

[jet]

I think when it comes to bans, it's important to remember that bans are dependent on how many points a member has.

I'm going to say something here, I feel like it could lead to an argument but I feel like I need to say it. All the bans from yesterday's drama came from infractions I gave. Niamh and I drew a line in the thread in question after it was cleaned and after seeing the same arguments and attacks were still ongoing after being warned not to, I simply gave everyone that was involved a three point infraction, this was enough to knock some people into a automatic one day ban and for someone else, it was enough to put them over the threshold for a week long ban but not everyone that was infracted got banned because for a few people, it was one of their first offences. I decided to give out those infractions because I wasn't really involved in that argument aside from my name being dragged into it. I gave infractions to people that were opposed to me and people who were arguing for me and all the infractions were because people kept going back to a previously deleted arguments. When I'm modding the thread, the only thing that comes into play is whether or not they are breaking the rules, I'm not tougher on people I dislike and I'm not softer on people I like. Everyone gets the same treatment when I mod.

I say this because I want to give context to the situation and it's a good example of why it feels like some people get banned while others don't. It's all dependant on how many infraction points you have.

The problem here is the inconsistency between the mods in handing out infractions and bans.
Members got infractions by you, several leading to bans for going 'off topic' ---

Niamh had posted:
"Back ontopic please" - that was it, 3 little words which I have never seen leading to infractions if some don't listen immediately - there was none of the usual "listen up now! infractions will be given if people continue to go off topic", which is the way it is normally handled, which gives people a fair chance of taking note and cooling off.
But you have said those words 'Back on topic please' were a WARNING which they were NOT and you handed out 3 point infractions. Why?
I don't believe Niamh or Vicky would have done this, imo, so really its a problem if mods don't have definite guidelines to follow and stick to it, for the sake of fairness, otherwise its going to cause bad feeling.

[Ross.]

I remember when I gave a poster 1 point..and it knocked them into a 3 week ban D: I was planning on being soft and making it shorter given it really was a minor thing but then they sent me a PM telling me to kill myself. So, nope.

Marsh must be stopped!

[Tom4784]

Exactly, which seems ridiculous to me. Especially when two people are in an argument and one is behaving far worse than the other.

If someone is behaving noticeably worse then they probably will get a bigger infraction but whether they get banned or not is dependant on their points. The system is based on individual actions and consequences.

Say, if someone reports someone else for baiting in SD and I'm online to read the report thread, I'll go into the topic, look at the post in question and then I tend to go back and forth to understand the context, more often than not I'll find that both sides broke the rules and I infract both, it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong in the argument itself, I have to base it on rule breaks if I want to be impartial.

With all the transphobia stuff in the last CBB, I came up with a rule of thumb. I think it's okay to accuse someone of, in this example, being transphobic as long as you explain why in a reasonable manner IE 'I think you're transphobic because of this and that.' I think that's perfectly fine, the problem occurs if someone goes like 'YOU'RE A TRANSPHOBIC TROUT! GO CHOKE!'. When faced with bigotry, you've got to preferably report or, if you want to discuss, do so in a way that doesn't reduce the discussion to people insulting each other.

[Tom4784]

The problem here is the inconsistency between the mods in handing out infractions and bans.
Members got infractions by you, several leading to bans for going 'off topic' ---

Niamh had posted:
"Back ontopic please" - that was it, 3 little words which I have never seen leading to infractions if some don't listen immediately - there was none of the usual "listen up now! infractions will be given if people continue to go off topic", which is the way it is normally handled, which gives people a fair chance of taking note and cooling off.
But you have said those words 'Back on topic please' were a WARNING which they were NOT and you handed out 3 point infractions. Why?
I don't believe Niamh or Vicky would have done this, imo, so really its a problem if mods don't have definite guidelines to follow and stick to it, for the sake of fairness, otherwise its going to cause bad feeling.

It's quite common for mods to hand out infractions when we've spent ages selecting potentially hundreds of posts (INDIVIDUALLY!) to delete them and only for the same argument to occur in the re-opened thread afterwards. Pretty much all the people involved in that argument and who got infracted, bar perhaps Twosugars, have been around long enough to know that you don't continue an argument after it's been deleted. The people who got pushed into a ban certainly do know that.

The fact that the argument was also very intense and insult heavy also played into the points given. I came in into that thread to hand out those infractions about two or three pages after Niamh cleaned it and stated that she had cleaned it and, tbh, three points was probably not enough for some of the things that were said but since I decided to go with continuing a deleted argument as the infraction reason, which everyone was guilty of, that's why I went with a universal three pointer.

Three points isn't really a heavy infraction in all honesty and I personally thought it was a fair amount given how heated the argument had become.

In future, I shall remember to deliver a warning for the benefit of newer members but in the case of members who have been here long enough to know the rules, it should be common knowledge that once an argument is deleted, it should be considered be over or else infractions are dealt out. .

[jet]

When do points accrued expire if you haven't had any for a while?

[Tom4784]

When do points accrued expire if you haven't had any for a while?

Depends on the infractions, Serious infractions tend to have longer expiration dates. A one pointer or a minor infraction might only be active for one month but depending on if the person is a frequent rulebreaker or their offences are particularly bad, they'll get longer lasting infractions that will keep them at a higher number of points for longer which means they need to be on their best behavior for longer.

I think the longest expiration date I've given on a non permaban infraction is a year. Usually the average for most mods is probably around 1-3 months per infraction, I'd say.

[Jordan.]

I still have a warning from 2014 it expires in 2020 :skull:

[Tom4784]

:skull:

Bit of a shady warning too!

[Tom4784]

I'll reverse it if you want but if it was me I'd wanna keep it tbh.

[Jordan.]

I'm riding it out & clearly sticking to what it says :fan:

[Tom4784]

Imagine if we gave out 6 year infractions and warnings for saying 'Leave ha alone' these days. C&G would be DEAD.

[jet]

It's quite common for mods to hand out infractions when we've spent ages selecting potentially hundreds of posts (INDIVIDUALLY!) to delete them and only for the same argument to occur in the re-opened thread afterwards. Pretty much all the people involved in that argument and who got infracted, bar perhaps Twosugars, have been around long enough to know that you don't continue an argument after it's been deleted. The people who got pushed into a ban certainly do know that.

The fact that the argument was also very intense and insult heavy also played into the points given. I came in into that thread to hand out those infractions about two or three pages after Niamh cleaned it and stated that she had cleaned it and, tbh, three points was probably not enough for some of the things that were said but since I decided to go with continuing a deleted argument as the infraction reason, which everyone was guilty of, that's why I went with a universal three pointer.

Three points isn't really a heavy infraction in all honesty and I personally thought it was a fair amount given how heated the argument had become.

In future, I shall remember to deliver a warning for the benefit of newer members but in the case of members who have been here long enough to know the rules, it should be common knowledge that once an argument is deleted, it should be considered be over or else infractions are dealt out. .

Thanks for explaining, but there is another problem...because speaking for myself, I wasn't around to see the whole thread and the numerous insults which you speak of and other members may not have been either. I don't think I insulted anyone, otherwise I would have been given an infraction for that...and I certainly wasn't in any heated argument, if I've totally forgotten then remind me? I pop into a thread when I have time, others may do the same, why is anyone infracted or banned who may not even know posts were deleted - where did it say this had even happened? So giving out infractions or bans to anyone who went off topic after the fact with no real warning isn't fair either...3 points for everyone, regardless?
I've been here a long time and have never had a ban, and to get banned for well, nothing really is annoying...petty on my part really, but still...

[Tom4784]

Thanks for explaining, but there is another problem...because speaking for myself, I wasn't around to see the whole thread and the numerous insults which you speak of and other members may not have been either. I don't think I insulted anyone, otherwise I would have been given an infraction for that...and I certainly wasn't in any heated argument, if I've totally forgotten then remind me? I pop into a thread when I have time, others may do the same, why is anyone infracted or banned who may not even know posts were deleted - where did it say this had even happened? So giving out infractions or bans to anyone who went off topic after the fact with no real warning isn't fair either...3 points for everyone, regardless?
I've been here a long time and have never had a ban, and to get banned for well, nothing really is annoying...petty on my part really, but still...

I can PM you the whys if you want me to go over the infraction with you if you want?

[Cal.]

I have infractions that never expire http://i.imgur.com/Qrgwvdr.gif

[Kazanne]

Vicky I would be very happy with you in SD, you are reasonable and erudite, and I think any infractions and bans you hand out are pretty fair, even the ones I have received myself which I know are from you..fair dues I deserved them :laugh:

This ^:wavey:

[Kazanne]

I have no problem with the forum or rules at all, it's the way some of us are spoken to ,there are ways of talking to people without being condescending and rude. There should be somewhere we can air our grievances too so I think the appeals section is a good move or even just a named person we could talk to.

[Nicky91]

Dear Withano,

You have received an infraction at ThisisBigBrother.com - UK TV Forums.

Reason: You implied Georgina wasn’t very rich

:joker: :joker: :joker:

i wouldn't abuse my mod powers like that honestly

[AnnieK]

All seems fair to me. Rules and modding needs to be as transparent as possible and what has been suggested seems to be the best way to do things

[Cherie]

Honestly shocked that this board is all global moderators. That's a problem. There should be 1-2 global moderators who can cover in separate sections if there is a gap ... but there absolutely should not be 7-8 people modding the entire board. Then there's no sense of ownership or authority for those sections and no accountability. There's also no way to moderate consistently when you have 4-5 cooks in the kitchen.

And they should have a choice too what they will moderate... putting Vicky back into a section that's made her miserable would be emotionally abusive imo :laugh:

Maru for SD :clap1:

[Cherie]

I also don't think there would be much of an issue with night time arguments on SD as it is mostly used during the day, I've rarely logged on to a new SD thread made overnight and is is barely posted in late at night

[Ammi]

..I fairly much haven’t really had anything to add to the thread...which might feel odd as I made it..:laugh:..but it’s just because I haven’t been on the forum much to be aware of specific grievances as such and to comment on personally...so it’s really for others to be able to voice things which they feel are contributive atm to so much negativity being felt...anyways one think I thought though...some seems to be the removal or editing of posts without being given a reason for this and the confusions/irritations etc that causes..?...could those edits/removals of specific posts etc be given a ‘one chance’ to the poster who made them to self edit or remove...like, what was ‘wrong’ with this post in terms of being insulting or personal to a member, you tell me..you go look, type thing, you go look at the ‘issue’ here and remove or self edit..?...could that be a possibility maybe...?...


...it may still result in an infraction etc but it may help to stop feelings of ‘bias’ with staff of...’you’re just trying to shut me down’, type thing...and focusing of people taking their own self responsibility..?....also of someone refuses to self edit or remove an obvious personal insult or inference..then the infraction is obvious to all other members as to why it was given as the ‘personal’ post is still there, while that person continues to post in that thread etc...so rather than yep it’s gone or been edited and you’re infracted..it’s more, take a look yourself at the changes/removal/edititing needed or you will be infracted...?...

[Ammi]

...it could be a preset thing to send to a member, rather than type it out each time by staff..?...just press a button and that ‘one chance’ is given to self edit..?...

[Ammi]

...anyways for any staff member to be ‘given’ SD to moderate atm would be like being given the groups or the overs in the XFactor in a series where they were awful acts...:laugh:...I think Niamh and Vicky are both great de-escalators and great diffusers as an active contributing presence in particularly ‘heated’ thread topics...but admin I think would be good to make infraction/sanction decisions overall in that section atm...they just can’t necessarily be here to diffuse etc while the thread is active ...

[Pete.]

I think I speak for many when I say this drama is distracting from the mods installing a like button and quote notification feature

https://i.imgur.com/iRB4IqF.gif

[chuff me dizzy]

Exactly, which seems ridiculous to me. Especially when two people are in an argument and one is behaving far worse than the other.

There are always 2 sides to a story and an argument,one person may say outright their part while the other one is sneaky to avoid the radar ,but BOTH should be infracted ,it shouldn't save your neck by being the slyest

[Josy]

I've already posted in admin but I don't agree that mods should assigned to moderating certain areas of the forum, yes it may sound good in theory but it really wouldnt work on here partly due to members becoming aware of which mods doing what and starting a 'this mod is bias campaign' when the infractions are given out, and others can argue that it won't happen but it already does and will continue to. And then there's the fact that certain areas on here are much busier and more hostile than other areas, the times that mods are online/offline would also have to be worked out and factored in, thats just the first thoughts that came to me about it.

I will say though there is a big problem on this forum atm that needs sorting, thats both down to members and staff issues that need to be dealt with ASAP.

[Cherie]

I've already posted in admin but I don't agree that mods should assigned to moderating certain areas of the forum, yes it may sound good in theory but it really wouldnt work on here partly due to members becoming aware of which mods doing what and starting a 'this mod is bias campaign' when the infractions are given out, and others can argue that it won't happen but it already does and will continue to. And then there's the fact that certain areas on here are much busier and more hostile than other areas, the times that mods are online/offline would also have to be worked out and factored in, thats just the first thoughts that came to me about it.

I will say though there is a big problem on this forum atm that needs sorting, thats both down to members and staff issues that need to be dealt with ASAP.

Welcome back Mrs Josy. Could you not trial it in SD for 3 months or something? I think most people would be happy if bans and infractions are handed out by someone who plays within the rules themselves and someone who is fair and even handed?

[smudgie]

One word answer.
Respect.


Long answer.
Is it so flippin’ hard to respect the fact that people have different views on any given subject.
That’s the reason to debate a subject, learn about different views.
Personal grievances have no place on any forum, especially an otherwise friendly one like TIBB.
A decent sense of humour and a bit of lightning up would go a long way as well.

[Niamh.]

One word answer.
Respect.


Long answer.
Is it so flippin’ hard to respect the fact that people have different views on any given subject.
That’s the reason to debate a subject, learn about different views.
Personal grievances have no place on any forum, especially an otherwise friendly one like TIBB.
A decent sense of humour and a bit of lightning up would go a long way as well.

Well said Smudgie

[jet]

Honestly shocked that this board is all global moderators. That's a problem. There should be 1-2 global moderators who can cover in separate sections if there is a gap ... but there absolutely should not be 7-8 people modding the entire board. Then there's no sense of ownership or authority for those sections and no accountability. There's also no way to moderate consistently when you have 4-5 cooks in the kitchen.

And they should have a choice too what they will moderate... putting Vicky back into a section that's made her miserable would be emotionally abusive imo :laugh:

:clap1: Agree 100%.

[Cherie]

The other suggestion with regard to SD is that the mod or mods could be anonymous, though I can only speak for myself if the modding is fair, and even handed and people can see that mods who break the rules are treated the same way as members it would go a long way to restoring some trust in the system.

[chuff me dizzy]

One word answer.
Respect.


Long answer.
Is it so flippin’ hard to respect the fact that people have different views on any given subject.
That’s the reason to debate a subject, learn about different views.
Personal grievances have no place on any forum, especially an otherwise friendly one like TIBB.
A decent sense of humour and a bit of lightning up would go a long way as well.

Totally agree with this, I say a LOT tongue in cheek as that is my sense of humour, but some choose to not get it and go ott in abuse instead of seeing the comment for what it was ....... F.U.N. I don't expect everyone to have a good sense of humour,the world isn't perfect, but it would go a long way to making this a happier place if they had

[chuff me dizzy]

The other suggestion with regard to SD is that the mod or mods could be anonymous, though I can only speak for myself if the modding is fair, and even handed and people can see that mods who break the rules are treated the same way as members it would go a long way to restoring some trust in the system.

My major gripe is that mods can say what they like to who the like with no recourse, this needs addressing..... 99% of the modding on here is fair and accepted,its when the line is crossed and when said mods are being used to fire the gun for their mates as there is no come back on them that has caused all of this debate ,and although today everyone seems to think big changes will happen on here,Im sad to say they wont,within a few days we will be back to square one ,with the same thing happening

[Livia]

The other suggestion with regard to SD is that the mod or mods could be anonymous, though I can only speak for myself if the modding is fair, and even handed and people can see that mods who break the rules are treated the same way as members it would go a long way to restoring some trust in the system.

My major gripe is that mods can say what they like to who the like with no recourse, this needs addressing..... 99% of the modding on here is fair and accepted,its when the line is crossed and when said mods are being used to fire the gun for their mates as there is no come back on them that has caused all of this debate ,and although today everyone seems to think big changes will happen on here,Im sad to say they wont,within a few days we will be back to square one ,with the same thing happening


Mods should be treated the same... but let's face it, there's only one mod who breaks the rules continually, and that's Dezzy. I have another infraction from him today, in spite. Because the post wasn't worth an infraction. But look at his posts! - not on this thread though, where he's being all jokey and trying not to acknowledge that it is he who is the problem.

I'm not sure whether to report his posts every time he acts unreasonably - which is often - or just quote his posts and highlight the nonsense.

[chuff me dizzy]

Mods should be treated the same... but let's face it, there's only one mod who breaks the rules continually, and that's Dezzy. I have another infraction from him today, in spite. Because the post wasn't worth an infraction. But look at his posts! - not on this thread though, where he's being all jokey and trying not to acknowledge that it is he who is the problem.

I'm not sure whether to report his posts every time he acts unreasonably - which is often - r just quote his posts and highlight the nonsense.

Totally agree,ONE mod is ruining what was and could be a great,fun place to visit ,and I also agree his long humble post doesn't wash with me

[hijaxers]

Mods should be treated the same... but let's face it, there's only one mod who breaks the rules continually, and that's Dezzy. I have another infraction from him today, in spite. Because the post wasn't worth an infraction. But look at his posts! - not on this thread though, where he's being all jokey and trying not to acknowledge that it is he who is the problem.

I'm not sure whether to report his posts every time he acts unreasonably - which is often - or just quote his posts and highlight the nonsense.

I did wonder where that post disappeared to !

[Tom4784]

The other suggestion with regard to SD is that the mod or mods could be anonymous, though I can only speak for myself if the modding is fair, and even handed and people can see that mods who break the rules are treated the same way as members it would go a long way to restoring some trust in the system.

That's the thing though, modding is already anonymous. A person can only assume that a certain mod is handing out infractions, they can't truly know.

One example of this involves Niamh, when SamPVT was on the forum, she would get tirades of abuse any time he got infracted although most of the time she had nothing to do with it and even if she was behind the infractions, all of the infractions Sam received were fair because all mods see every infraction that occurs and if we take issue with it, we say something. .

[Cherie]

That's the thing though, modding is already anonymous. A person can only assume that a certain mod is handing out infractions, they can't truly know.

One example of this involves Niamh, when SamPVT was on the forum, she would get tirades of abuse any time he got infracted although most of the time she had nothing to do with it and even if she was behind the infractions, all of the infractions Sam received were fair because all mods see every infraction that occurs and if we take issue with it, we say something. .

I mean anonymous in that someone else is appointed as a Mod, the forum doesn't need to know who they are, if the appeals section is open anyone with an issue can take it there, if the anonymous mod is fair and even handed I can't see the issue, I used to see Sam himself accuse Niamh, I can't remember anyone else doing it and I certainly didn't.

[Livia]

Is that my post you're reporting Dezzy?

Another infraction coming my way no doubt.

[Rob!]

Oh look. The banned members come back and automatically the witch hunts begin again.

Sense of humour that we choose not to get? Utter bollocks.

[Livia]

That's the thing though, modding is already anonymous. A person can only assume that a certain mod is handing out infractions, they can't truly know.

One example of this involves Niamh, when SamPVT was on the forum, she would get tirades of abuse any time he got infracted although most of the time she had nothing to do with it and even if she was behind the infractions, all of the infractions Sam received were fair because all mods see every infraction that occurs and if we take issue with it, we say something. .

When you're the only mod on the board and people are being infracted for stuff that's barely infractable.... it's you.

You are not a fair mod, Dezzy. I would love to see how you fared as an ordinary forum member without hiding behind your moderator status. I hope we get to find out some time soon.

[chuff me dizzy]

When you're the only mod on the board and people are being infracted for stuff that's barely infractable.... it's you.

You are not a fair mod, Dezzy. I would love to see how you fared as an ordinary forum member without hiding behind your moderator status. I hope we get to find out some time soon.

:clap1:

[Livia]

Oh look. The banned members come back and automatically the witch hunts begin again.

Sense of humour that we choose not to get? Utter bollocks.

It's not a witch-hunt, Rob. And if you really think that, you underestimate the power of feeling on the forum at the moment. Maybe if you were in SD more, you'd see the problem.

[Rob!]

Why would being in SD more make a difference? I’ve seen what it’s like in there myself. It’s horrible. It’s full of arguments, not debates and people are made to feel like crap for having a different opinion. It also is the area that is causing one of the main issues (although there are others. Why would I want to post in there?

[Tom4784]

I mean anonymous in that someone else is appointed as a Mod, the forum doesn't need to know who they are, if the appeals section is open anyone with an issue can take it there, if the anonymous mod is fair and even handed I can't see the issue, I used to see Sam himself accuse Niamh, I can't remember anyone else doing it and I certainly didn't.

It's a good idea in theory but I don't think it would work in practice. I think people would just start assuming who the mod was. You could in theory have different mods take 'SD shifts' at intervals not revealed to members but I'm not sure how much that would help either.

If it was down to me, I'd just bring in two new mods who have no political interest or interest in SD itself to moderate it.

[Twosugars]

the rightwing clique is back at it, concerted effort to bring down a mod and probably even drive him off the forum
Luckily Dezzy has plenty of support, regardless whether he is a mod or not.

[Cherie]

It's a good idea in theory but I don't think it would work in practice. I think people would just start assuming who the mod was. You could in theory have different mods take 'SD shifts' at intervals not revealed to members but I'm not sure how much that would help either.

If it was down to me, I'd just bring in two new mods who have no political interest or interest in SD itself to moderate it.

That could work

[Livia]

Why would being in SD more make a difference? I’ve seen what it’s like in there myself. It’s horrible. It’s full of arguments, not debates and people are made to feel like crap for having a different opinion. It also is the area that is causing one of the main issues (although there are others. Why would I want to post in there?

Because you're calling this a witch hunt, and it isn't. And if you don't go into SD then you don't have the full picture... but you're free to comment without knowing the full picture, of course. I would prefer you saw both sides, then you'd understand.

[Livia]

the rightwing clique is back at it, concerted effort to bring down a mod and probably even drive him off the forum
Luckily Dezzy has plenty of support, regardless whether he is a mod or not.

You've been here three months, if we're to believe you're not a returning member... you know neither the facts nor the strength of feeling on the forum. If you did, you may be a little less blinkered.

[chuff me dizzy]

Well said Smudgie

Niamh who abused you over Sam ?

[Rob!]

Because you're calling this a witch hunt, and it isn't. And if you don't go into SD then you don't have the full picture... but you're free to comment without knowing the full picture, of course. I would prefer you saw both sides, then you'd understand.

I’ve read it though. It doesn’t seem like the sort of place to post that I would enjoy. I’lL occasionally go in and post my opinion, but there are some threads that I will see the title of and just know that the posts within it are going to make me angry, so I don’t go in. I do the same with Daily Mail articles.

[Cherie]

Why would being in SD more make a difference? I’ve seen what it’s like in there myself. It’s horrible. It’s full of arguments, not debates and people are made to feel like crap for having a different opinion. It also is the area that is causing one of the main issues (although there are others. Why would I want to post in there?

Yes you are right, or they are told that opinion is made up because of a general dislike of the other person and they truely don't believe in the point they are making, or they are told the place was better when they were banned, none of those people have made any ban list recently. If you feel its a witch hunt that is your opinion, but it is far from it, we need consistency and a fair hand for everyone that is all.

[Niamh.]

Niamh who abused you over Sam ?

What do you mean?

[chuff me dizzy]

What do you mean?

Dezzy said you got abuse from members over Sam ,I was wondering who abused you, I can PM you if you wish " One example of this involves Niamh, when SamPVT was on the forum, she would get tirades of abuse any time he got infracted "

[Twosugars]

You've been here three months, if we're to believe you're not a returning member... you know neither the facts nor the strength of feeling on the forum. If you did, you may be a little less blinkered.

There you go again, dismissing my right to have my own opinion because I'm a relatively new member (four months and counting). And this paranoid belief I'm a returning member :laugh: - another fabricated reason to undermine my opinion.
Bullying disguised as self-righteousness.

[Niamh.]

Dezzy said you got abuse from members over Sam ,I was wondering who abused you, I can PM you if you wish " One example of this involves Niamh, when SamPVT was on the forum, she would get tirades of abuse any time he got infracted "

Oh no not from other members from Sam himself (before he was perma banned obviously) saying that I disliked him because he was Protestant and alot of weird stuff :laugh:

[Tom4784]

Dezzy said you got abuse from members over Sam ,I was wondering who abused you, I can PM you if you wish " One example of this involves Niamh, when SamPVT was on the forum, she would get tirades of abuse any time he got infracted "

My bad, I meant she got abuse from Sam himself.

[chuff me dizzy]

Oh no not from other members from Sam himself (before he was perma banned obviously) saying that I disliked him because he was Protestant and alot of weird stuff :laugh:

Thanks for clearing that up

[Kazanne]

Welcome back Mrs Josy. Could you not trial it in SD for 3 months or something? I think most people would be happy if bans and infractions are handed out by someone who plays within the rules themselves and someone who is fair and even handed?

In a nutshell Cherie,I have no problem with rules as long as it applies to us ALL.

[Niamh.]

Honestly, I think the best solution for SDs would be have none of the current mods moderate it, get 2 or 3 new mods that nobody knows who they are to look after it. I'd be happy to stand down to make space for them aswell. I'm so tired of all this agro

[Kazanne]

I’ve read it though. It doesn’t seem like the sort of place to post that I would enjoy. I’lL occasionally go in and post my opinion, but there are some threads that I will see the title of and just know that the posts within it are going to make me angry, so I don’t go in. I do the same with Daily Mail articles.

Just remember a lot of responses were deleted ,if they hadn't been you may understand the problem more.

[Livia]

There you go again, dismissing my right to have my own opinion because I'm a relatively new member (four months and counting). And this paranoid belief I'm a returning member :laugh: - another fabricated reason to undermine my opinion.
Bullying disguised as self-righteousness.

Whatever.... I'm not the only one who recognises your style.

[Twosugars]

You've been here three months, if we're to believe you're not a returning member... you know neither the facts nor the strength of feeling on the forum. If you did, you may be a little less blinkered.

I don't believe in that narrative either. Mysterious groundswell of discontent mysteriously centering on one mod.
From what I see most people have no problem whatsoever with mods here, Dezzy included. But there's a group of, what, 10 at a push, that share most of their views on everything, but especially on gettin rid of Dezzy.

[chuff me dizzy]

Honestly, I think the best solution for SDs would be have none of the current mods moderate it, get 2 or 3 new mods that nobody knows who they are to look after it. I'd be happy to stand down to make space for them aswell. I'm so tired of all this agro

I agree ,and if a mod comments in there they can get infracted and banned the same as members

And NO WAY are you standing down young lady, you are a fair and honest mod on here and this place needs people like you ,you are liked by everyone, Ive never heard of anyone who has a gripe about you

[chuff me dizzy]

Whatever.... I'm not the only one who recognises your style.

:clap1:

[Niamh.]

I agree ,and if a mod comments in there they can get infracted and banned the same as members

And NO WAY are you standing down young lady, you are a fair and honest mod on here and this place needs people like you ,you are liked by everyone, Ive never heard of anyone who has a gripe about you

I'd be totally fine with that too tbh

[Twosugars]

Whatever.... I'm not the only one who recognises your style.

who else does? do tell
and who am I supposed to be? share that with all, stop beating about the bush
once that's out in the open maybe we can devise a verification so that we can prove how foolish this accusation is :laugh:

[Livia]

I don't believe in that narrative either. Mysterious groundswell of discontent mysteriously centering on one mod.
From what I see most people have no problem whatsoever with mods here, Dezzy included. But there's a group of, what, 10 at a push, that share most of their views on everything, but especially on gettin rid of Dezzy.

You have no idea of the real problem, nor of the number of people who share my opinion. So your views are meaningless to me.

Not sure I could have given such a sweeping opinion of a huge problem on the forum when I'd only been here 4 months.

[Livia]

who else does? do tell
and who am I supposed to be? share that with all, stop beating about the bush
once that's out in the open maybe we can devise a verification so that we can prove how foolish this accusation is :laugh:

This thread is not about you.

[chuff me dizzy]

I'd be totally fine with that too tbh

It would make mods who choose to comment in there think twice before posting what they are posting at the minute behind the armour of a mod badge

[chuff me dizzy]

You have no idea of the real problem, nor of the number of people who share my opinion. So your views are meaningless to me.

Not sure I could have given such a sweeping opinion of a huge problem on the forum when I'd only been here 4 months.

Sweeping comments were made about people when he/she had less than 100 posts

Back on topic . Im so glad things are getting thrashed out, it needed doing a long time ago

[Rob!]

So you’re suggesting that the mods you don’t like are banned from the entire section basically?

[Twosugars]

You have no idea of the real problem, nor of the number of people who share my opinion. So your views are meaningless to me.

Not sure I could have given such a sweeping opinion of a huge problem on the forum when I'd only been here 4 months.

meaningless of inconvenient? if there were meaningless you'd not engage discussing with me

4 months is plenty; I bet 4 days would be enough, the attacks on Dezzy are very regular and predictable

[Niamh.]

So you’re suggesting that the mods you don’t like are banned from the entire section basically?

I don't think that's what she's suggesting at all tbf, she's saying that mods could be infracted in there.

[Twosugars]

This thread is not about you.

so don't bring up your delusional views about my identity :laugh:

[chuff me dizzy]

I don't think that's what she's suggesting at all tbf, she's saying that mods could be infracted in there.

Yes thats what I meant and he knew it,but has to get a dig in every chance he gets, I ignore him

[Cherie]

So you’re suggesting that the mods you don’t like are banned from the entire section basically?

No, anyone can post but they are subject to the same rules as members, ie if they cross the line they can be infracted and banned

[Rob!]

I don't think that's what she's suggesting at all tbf, she's saying that mods could be infracted in there.

It would make mods who choose to comment in there think twice before posting what they are posting at the minute behind the armour of a mod badge

Sounds like that’s exactly what she’s suggesting :shrug:

[Livia]

So you’re suggesting that the mods you don’t like are banned from the entire section basically?

That's a very simplistic comment.

No one should be allowed to break the rules and hide behind their moderator status. No one has a problem with any of the mods but one. And if you haven't been on the receiving end of his nastiness, you have no idea what's going on. And the mod in question was a friend of mine for a long time, and turned on a sixpence.

But crack on Rob, crack on with your uninformed comments. I hear your very good at fiction.

[Rob!]

No, anyone can post but they are subject to the same rules as members, ie if they cross the line they can be infracted and banned

But that’s basic. I don’t think the mods are under any illusion that they have the right to ignore the rules otherwise they wouldn’t be mods.

[Livia]

so don't bring up your delusional views about my identity :laugh:

Take your little drama to someone else. And maybe know what the problem is before you decide to take the opposite view.

[Niamh.]

Sounds like that’s exactly what she’s suggesting :shrug:

Well it isn't really Rob

[Livia]

But that’s basic. I don’t think the mods are under any illusion that they have the right to ignore the rules otherwise they wouldn’t be mods.

Which is fine! Until one starts to single YOU out.

[Cherie]

But that’s basic. I don’t think the mods are under any illusion that they have the right to ignore the rules otherwise they wouldn’t be mods.

Admin aren't taking this seriously on a whim Rob, it is happening

[Twosugars]

Take your little drama to someone else. And maybe know what the problem is before you decide to take the opposite view.
what drama? your theory about me is a comedy :laugh:

I know enough about the problem you describe: yet another attempt to get rid of Dezzy.
Mind you, I admire all the mods on here and salute their work in such toxic environment.

[chuff me dizzy]

But that’s basic. I don’t think the mods are under any illusion that they have the right to ignore the rules otherwise they wouldn’t be mods.

What do you think the last few days has been about ..... all the messages going to James ? ONE mod abuses his roll ,and the ONE mod has been over stepping the mark for a long,long time and people have become fed up with it and have tried to put an end to it ,and as we can see people power is bringing long awaited changes to TIBB ,and not before time

[caprimint]

I don't really know what's going on tbh, but just want to say: Livia :love: Whether or not I agree with what you're saying, I love how you always post so eloquently and I can definitely see where you're coming from.

[Kazanne]

I don't believe in that narrative either. Mysterious groundswell of discontent mysteriously centering on one mod.
From what I see most people have no problem whatsoever with mods here, Dezzy included. But there's a group of, what, 10 at a push, that share most of their views on everything, but especially on gettin rid of Dezzy.

Talk about presumptuous ,let me just say , you might think you have it right, but you know nothing ,no one knows except the ones involved, there is no mystery ,but continue to dramatize.

[Twosugars]

I don't really know what's going on tbh, but just want to say: Livia :love: Whether or not I agree with what you're saying, I love how you always post so eloquently and I can definitely see where you're coming from.

don't worry, you don't have to know
according to Livia you only have to know the problem if you take an opposite view from hers.

[Cherie]

don't worry, you don't have to know
according to Livia you only have to know the problem if you take an opposite view from hers.

I will say to you what I said to Rob, why are admin taking this seriously if there is no issue?

we didn't just go and say...ooo we have issues..

we have forum posts, and threads to back it up sorry to burst your bubble

[Withano]

Which is fine! Until one starts to single YOU out.

...you genuinely spent the last three pages singling people out


Probably why theres a lack of empathy around the mass-ban that you want attention drawn to for being unjust. People see the type of posts that dont get infracted, and we must assume that the ones that do are worse than that.

[Twosugars]

I will say to you what I said to Rob, why are admin taking this seriously if there is no issue?

we didn't just go and say...ooo we have issues..

we have forum posts, and threads to back it up sorry to burst your bubble

ok, Cherie; maybe it would help then to give some examples or quote threads? So that everybody can see and make up their minds. Not many people read all threads all the time.

[Cherie]

ok, Cherie; maybe it would help then to give some examples or quote threads? So that everybody can see and make up their minds. Not many people read all threads all the time.

I would quote the Eddie Izzard thread but it has been deleted, that was my last interaction for months

[Cal.]

If you wanna get up next to me, you don’t have to chase me?

http://i.imgur.com/Qrgwvdr.gif

[Josy]

the rightwing clique is back at it, concerted effort to bring down a mod and probably even drive him off the forum
Luckily Dezzy has plenty of support, regardless whether he is a mod or not.Pack it in with this baiting or i'll put you straight into a ban

[Amy Jade]

I honestly feel bad for Dezzy reading this thread today.

[Josy]

Take your little drama to someone else. And maybe know what the problem is before you decide to take the opposite view.It seems youre sole purpose of posting today has been to cause drama and single people out tbh, two wrongs dont make a right and you cant demand things are done about the complaints you have when you are guilty of similar

[Twosugars]

Pack it in with this baiting or i'll put you straight into a ban

it wasn't my intention to bait
but I defer to your enforcement of the rules and will try to be more circumspect in expressing myself
rules are rules and we need them

[Rob!]

That's a very simplistic comment.

No one should be allowed to break the rules and hide behind their moderator status. No one has a problem with any of the mods but one. And if you haven't been on the receiving end of his nastiness, you have no idea what's going on. And the mod in question was a friend of mine for a long time, and turned on a sixpence.

But crack on Rob, crack on with your uninformed comments. I hear your very good at fiction.

Why are you getting nasty? I haven't been nasty with you. Maybe something for you to think about before you start throwing accusations about.

[AnnieK]

I try to be an impartial on this forum as possible, mainly because at the end of the day...its a Big Brother Forum and I have enough **** in my real life without having to deal with beef on here. However, from the last couple of days my observations are:

1 - There is a definite pack mentality from all sides. The other day in the Anti-Semitic thread when it kicked off, it was reported in the chat threads as kicking off and then a mass influx of people came into the thread which inflamed it further leading to the bans. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, in real life people stick up for their friends but the problem comes when it is obviously happening and then people only see it from the other side.

2. People take a real bashing on here - just recently Brillo has had numerous character assassinations and now Dezzy is getting it. A lot of the people who are here supporting Dezzy saying it shouldn't be happening (and I agree it shouldn't on a public forum) are people who either took part or watch in amusement at the Brillo bashing.

I don't know what people get out of it - borne from frustration maybe but there needs to be a line drawn as the toxicity is getting worse on here and it used to be such a great forum.

[Nicky91]

I don't think that's what she's suggesting at all tbf, she's saying that mods could be infracted in there.

no offense but i also see Dezzy use a couple of swear words and i also wonder if mods could be infracted

[Josy]

Rob tbf here I think its the fact that you are posting along the lines of theres no problem here, its only certain members that are moaning etc when the fact is there is some very real problems on this forum right now.

Sorry if ive took youre comments the wrong way its quite difficult to keep track of everything atm but from the posts ive seen thats what I got from them.

[Josy]

I try to be an impartial on this forum as possible, mainly because at the end of the day...its a Big Brother Forum and I have enough **** in my real life without having to deal with beef on here. However, from the last couple of days my observations are:

1 - There is a definite pack mentality from all sides. The other day in the Anti-Semitic thread when it kicked off, it was reported in the chat threads as kicking off and then a mass influx of people came into the thread which inflamed it further leading to the bans. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, in real life people stick up for their friends but the problem comes when it is obviously happening and then people only see it from the other side.

2. People take a real bashing on here - just recently Brillo has had numerous character assassinations and now Dezzy is getting it. A lot of the people who are here supporting Dezzy saying it shouldn't be happening (and I agree it shouldn't on a public forum) are people who either took part or watch in amusement at the Brillo bashing.

I don't know what people get out of it - borne from frustration maybe but there needs to be a line drawn as the toxicity is getting worse on here and it used to be such a great forum.Couldnt agree more

[Niamh.]

Rob tbf here I think its the fact that you are posting along the lines of theres no problem here, its only certain members that are moaning etc when the fact is there is some very real problems on this forum right now.

Sorry if ive took youre comments the wrong way its quite difficult to keep track of everything atm but from the posts ive seen thats what I got from them.

Yep agree with this, Annies post pretty much applies I think

[Cal.]

But what are the problems? I’m not trying to cause drama I’d just like to know!

[chuff me dizzy]

I try to be an impartial on this forum as possible, mainly because at the end of the day...its a Big Brother Forum and I have enough **** in my real life without having to deal with beef on here. However, from the last couple of days my observations are:

1 - There is a definite pack mentality from all sides. The other day in the Anti-Semitic thread when it kicked off, it was reported in the chat threads as kicking off and then a mass influx of people came into the thread which inflamed it further leading to the bans. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, in real life people stick up for their friends but the problem comes when it is obviously happening and then people only see it from the other side.

2. People take a real bashing on here - just recently Brillo has had numerous character assassinations and now Dezzy is getting it. A lot of the people who are here supporting Dezzy saying it shouldn't be happening (and I agree it shouldn't on a public forum) are people who either took part or watch in amusement at the Brillo bashing.

I don't know what people get out of it - borne from frustration maybe but there needs to be a line drawn as the toxicity is getting worse on here and it used to be such a great forum.

Totally agree with this ^^ the way Brillo is abused on here ( Livia too ) is disgusting and its always the same people who now are crying into their coffee because their friend is getting spoken about for not doing his job in the manner it should be done ,Good old members have been driven off this forum because of the actions of a few,and if this place is going to attract nice people who feel free to chat without getting abused something has to change, and it starts at the top

[Ammi]

...following from Josy...it wasn’t meant to be ‘is there a problem or issues’ because there obviously is...perspectives of those might be different but they’re genuinely felt...it’s more is there a solution in changes that would be acceptable to most...staff included as it can’t be denied that to staff the forum atm is fairly thankless and worthless in task...

[Greg!]

Dezzy is gorgeous leave him alone!

[Lostie!]

I try to be an impartial on this forum as possible, mainly because at the end of the day...its a Big Brother Forum and I have enough **** in my real life without having to deal with beef on here. However, from the last couple of days my observations are:

1 - There is a definite pack mentality from all sides. The other day in the Anti-Semitic thread when it kicked off, it was reported in the chat threads as kicking off and then a mass influx of people came into the thread which inflamed it further leading to the bans. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, in real life people stick up for their friends but the problem comes when it is obviously happening and then people only see it from the other side.

2. People take a real bashing on here - just recently Brillo has had numerous character assassinations and now Dezzy is getting it. A lot of the people who are here supporting Dezzy saying it shouldn't be happening (and I agree it shouldn't on a public forum) are people who either took part or watch in amusement at the Brillo bashing.

I don't know what people get out of it - borne from frustration maybe but there needs to be a line drawn as the toxicity is getting worse on here and it used to be such a great forum.

:clap1:

[Rob!]

Hey, I mean I've stated what my problems are earlier in the thread and I think and hope I took the time to do so in a measured, calm and considered way. Whether any of those problems are addressed in the future is a matter for you guys.
That isn't what is happening in here now some of the banned members are back. That to me speaks volumes.

[Ninastar]

AnnieK for pres

[Greg!]

But what are the problems? I’m not trying to cause drama I’d just like to know!

People got banned for breaking the rules and they canny take it!

[Greg!]

I think I speak for many when I say this drama is distracting from the mods installing a like button and quote notification feature

https://i.imgur.com/iRB4IqF.gif

This is the REAL problem that needs addressed on this is big brother dot com!

[Cal.]

People got banned for breaking the rules and they canny take it!

They never should have went to Lidia’s gaff?

[chuff me dizzy]

Hey, I mean I've stated what my problems are earlier in the thread and I think and hope I took the time to do so in a measured, calm and considered way. Whether any of those problems are addressed in the future is a matter for you guys.
That isn't what is happening in here now some of the banned members are back. That to me speaks volumes.

So you don't think the members giving a small ban for speaking out should have a voice ? You think we should put up and shut up ? THIS is why its all come to a head,because for a long time people HAVE put up and shut up and its caused bad feeling ...Better to have a couple of days bashing out the problem than letting it fester

[chuff me dizzy]

People got banned for breaking the rules and they canny take it!

The fact that some ( mods) DONT get banned for breaking the rules they are supposed to uphold is the problem here

[Kazanne]

ok, Cherie; maybe it would help then to give some examples or quote threads? So that everybody can see and make up their minds. Not many people read all threads all the time.

Lots of things are deleted so you cant get a clear picture of the whole thing.

[Rob!]

So you don't think the members giving a small ban for speaking out should have a voice ? You think we should put up and shut up ? THIS is why its all come to a head,because for a long time people HAVE put up and shut up and its caused bad feeling ...Better to have a couple of days bashing out the problem than letting it fester

Yeah, but you've come back kicking and screaming because you've been given a ban. As stated earlier in the thread, you broke the rules, and for once you were punished. You can't be whinging about the mods that gave you that punishment when you're just as guilty of what you're complaining about.

[Josy]

The fact that some ( mods) DONT get banned for breaking the rules they are supposed to uphold is the problem hereActually there is a lot more going on than problems members have with certain mods, members being completely blind to their own wrong doings whilst quick to point out others flaws is one of the main issues.

[chuff me dizzy]

Yeah, but you've come back kicking and screaming because you've been given a ban. As stated earlier in the thread, you broke the rules, and for once you were punished. You can't be whinging about the mods that gave you that punishment when you're just as guilty of what you're complaining about.

Now please take a minute and find where Ive "come back kicking and screaming " about getting a ban.... I took the ban on the chin as adults do ,my complaint is about ONE mod, not all mods

[Withano]

I thought admins could infract mods, but mods cant infract each other?

[Kazanne]

So you don't think the members giving a small ban for speaking out should have a voice ? You think we should put up and shut up ? THIS is why its all come to a head,because for a long time people HAVE put up and shut up and its caused bad feeling ...Better to have a couple of days bashing out the problem than letting it fester

Well said Chuff,Why can't people see that ? not all of us feel the need to suck up to people who are in a position of 'power' for fear of getting a ban,people are just surmising what THEY think has happened,

[Rob!]

Now please take a minute and find where Ive "come back kicking and screaming " about getting a ban.... I took the ban on the chin as adults do ,my complaint is about ONE mod, not all mods

Oh, so it's just coincidence that it happens to be the mod that gave you that ban?

[chuff me dizzy]

Actually there is a lot more going on than problems members have with certain mods, members being completely blind to their own wrong doings whilst quick to point out others flaws is one of the main issues.

One thing Im not and have never been is blind to my faults ,but Im not the subject here, if I do wrong I get infracted or banned, what I think should happen as Ive said countless time above and on Izzard thread is a fair deal for ALL ,with EVERYONE being equal ,thats not too much to ask for surely ?

[chuff me dizzy]

Oh, so it's just coincidence that it happens to be the mod that gave you that ban?

How do you know who banned me ? This will be interesting and prove our point of the sneaky stuff going on in PM if you've been told by a mod that they banned me .. my case will be proven

[Withano]

Now please take a minute and find where Ive "come back kicking and screaming " about getting a ban.... I took the ban on the chin as adults do ,my complaint is about ONE mod, not all mods

You’re complaint comes off aggressive, insulting, and rude... so your problem with anybody being anything wont be taken as seriously as you’d like...

[jet]

You’re complaint comes off aggressive, insulting, and rude... so your problem with anybody being anything wont be taken as seriously as you’d like...

You are one of the biggest baiters on here, especially when it comes to Brillo. Got any bans lately?

[Rob!]

How do you know who banned me ? This will be interesting and prove our point of the sneaky stuff going on in PM if you've been told by a mod that they banned me .. my case will be proven

Because Dezzy explained earlier in the thread how he dealt with the matter. There's nothing sneaky about it. He handed out three infraction points to everyone involved.

[Kazanne]

I for one wish some people would mind their own business and let the admins and mods get on with the job in hand and ,it's no good trying to find out what's gone on,most of you are so far off the mark but's it's fun to watch some thinking they know it all.

[Greg!]

They never should have went to Lidia’s gaff?

:joker:

[Kazanne]

You are one of the biggest baiters on here, especially when it comes to Brillo. Got any bans lately?

100% agree with this one.

[Josy]

You are one of the biggest baiters on here, especially when it comes to Brillo. Got any bans lately?Posts like this do nothing but bait and cause trouble not to mention are against the rules, again doing the very thing you accuse someone else of, if the thread descends into chaos and arguing it ends up closed and decent suggestions and grievances get overlooked.

[Withano]

You are one of the biggest baiters on here, especially when it comes to Brillo. Got any bans lately?

Report them when you see them, lord knows I do the same for you!

Brillo and I barely communicated in the weeks before her ban if you must know. I used to take issue with her posting style, but I didnt before her ban - it was much more thoughtful and diverse imo.

I have 4 in-date infractions, I think 3 of them are fair. I’m not screaming bias for the forth one that I disagree with because I’m already over it. Things happen.

[jet]

Posts like this do nothing but bait and cause trouble not to mention are against the rules, again doing the very thing you accuse someone else of, if the thread descends into chaos and arguing it ends up closed and decent suggestions and grievances get overlooked.

But its okay for Withano to call Chuff's complaints aggressive, insulting and rude?
But okay, point taken.

[Ammi]

...I did think some things with Brillo felt uncomfortable and quite ‘targeting’...but do people not see, it’s the same with Dezzy now, the very same thing with the vein the thread has taken...I thought a private tea room type chat with a few members and staff to be the thing...not this hostility and targeting which is effectively bully behaviour....

[Twosugars]

How do you know who banned me ? This will be interesting and prove our point of the sneaky stuff going on in PM if you've been told by a mod that they banned me .. my case will be proven
from what was said here earlier I don't think there's any need for shady stuff.
ban is triggered by a certain number of points, not by a mod as I understood it. Dezzy said he gave a round of 3 point infractions. In same cases, if people had certain number of points before that adding 3 points to their total took them over into an automatic ban.
We don't know how many points we have at any given time so bans tend to be a surprise.
Dezzy admitted to his recent infractions, but normally they're anonymous.
It'd be interesting to see how many points of people who complain about Dezzy were actually given by him. It could prove or disprove the theory that Dezzy is unfair to some people.

[Cherie]

I try to be an impartial on this forum as possible, mainly because at the end of the day...its a Big Brother Forum and I have enough **** in my real life without having to deal with beef on here. However, from the last couple of days my observations are:

1 - There is a definite pack mentality from all sides. The other day in the Anti-Semitic thread when it kicked off, it was reported in the chat threads as kicking off and then a mass influx of people came into the thread which inflamed it further leading to the bans. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, in real life people stick up for their friends but the problem comes when it is obviously happening and then people only see it from the other side.

2. People take a real bashing on here - just recently Brillo has had numerous character assassinations and now Dezzy is getting it. A lot of the people who are here supporting Dezzy saying it shouldn't be happening (and I agree it shouldn't on a public forum) are people who either took part or watch in amusement at the Brillo bashing.

I don't know what people get out of it - borne from frustration maybe but there needs to be a line drawn as the toxicity is getting worse on here and it used to be such a great forum.

:clap2:

[jet]

Report them when you see them, lord knows I do the same for you!

Brillo and I barely communicated in the weeks before her ban if you must know. I used to take issue with her posting style, but I didnt before her ban - it was much more thoughtful and diverse imo.

I have 4 in-date infractions, I think 3 of them are fair. I’m not screaming bias for the forth one that I disagree with because I’m already over it. Things happen.

I rarely report posts, its just not something I feel comfortable doing.

[hijaxers]

[QUOTE=chuff me dizzy;9945068]Totally agree with this ^^ the way Brillo is abused on here ( Livia too ) is disgusting and its always the same people who now are crying into their coffee because their friend is getting spoken about for not doing his job in the manner it should be done ,Good old members have been driven off this forum because of the actions of a few,and if this place is going to attract nice people who feel free to chat without getting abused something has to change, and it starts at the top[/QUOTE

:clap1:

[Ammi]

I rarely report posts, its just not something I feel comfortable doing.

....hmmm, but then if you don’t personally report posts, Jet...but others may do with a post of yours for instance....does that not go in some way to explain what is felt to be ‘inconsistancy’...it could be more which posts are reported while others aren’t..?...

[Withano]

I rarely report posts, its just not something I feel comfortable doing.

For closure, I’ve had several infractions for interactions with Brillo in the past, and I agree that the vast bulk of them are fair.

I’d add, if we’re putting those standards on to the rest of the forum in this specific thread, and the way they’re discussing members (most specifically Dezzy)... I would have thought there’d be over 100 points of infractions between the lot of us.

[Cherie]

....hmmm, but then if you don’t personally report posts, Jet...but others may do with a post of yours for instance....does that not go in some way to explain what is felt to be ‘inconsistancy’...it could be more which posts are reported while others aren’t..?...

I do agree with that, I was never comfortable reporting posts either but I think people get banned more on posts reported than anything else, makes you think , I still don't do it enough, I should have reported Smudgie yesterday for swearing :laugh:

[Kazanne]

...I did think some things with Brillo felt uncomfortable and quite ‘targeting’...but do people not see, it’s the same with Dezzy now, the very same thing with the vein the thread has taken...I thought a private tea room type chat with a few members and staff to be the thing...not this hostility and targeting which is effectively bully behaviour....

A privacy thing would have been better,but people decided to come into the thread and presume that the banned members were thowing tantrums because of bans etc,well that is not the case ,not for me anyway,but we are bound to retaliate when someone tells us what OUR problem is,lol, I have also felt deeply sorry for brillo at times,and I did liken it to bullying,I try very hard to ignore people I don't get on with but sometimes it's very hard to do,we are all human and not perfect but like I have said numerous times sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.

[smudgie]

I do agree with that, I was never comfortable reporting posts either but I think people get banned more on posts reported than anything else, makes you think , I still don't do it enough, I should have reported Smudgie yesterday for swearing :laugh:

:fist:reported.

:joker:

[Mystic Mock]

Feuds are worse offseason than onseason tbh

I've definitely noticed it a bit more lately on the SD section, it's always been a place for debates/arguments, but I don't know it feels kinda like members really dislike each other on there which I've never felt like that before when visiting that section of the Forum.

I'm hoping that it's just me being OTT as I can be like that sometimes.

[Ammi]

I do agree with that, I was never comfortable reporting posts either but I think people get banned more on posts reported than anything else, makes you think , I still don't do it enough, I should have reported Smudgie yesterday for swearing :laugh:

..yeah Smudgie is actually the worst Cherie...mind you I think she has a golden touch or something because I report her daily and she’s still here as cheeky as ever...

...seriously though...many often seem to say ‘I don’t tend to report’...which I rarely do either so I’m equally guilty of that...but then there’s also ‘why does it feel inconsistent when that person said and was equally wrong etc’...when that might have a bearing on that...

[Ammi]

:fist:reported.

:joker:

....ooops, there she is...hang on, I’ll edit../..delete my post ...you creeping up on us Smudgie...

[Ammi]

A privacy thing would have been better,but people decided to come into the thread and presume that the banned members were thowing tantrums because of bans etc,well that is not the case ,not for me anyway,but we are bound to retaliate when someone tells us what OUR problem is,lol, I have also felt deeply sorry for brillo at times,and I did liken it to bullying,I try very hard to ignore people I don't get on with but sometimes it's very hard to do,we are all human and not perfect but like I have said numerous times sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it.

...:love:..yeah but probably things needed to be said as well Kaz ..so it’s a difficult one I guess...

[Mystic Mock]

..I don’t think any of us that might say ‘do people take these things so seriously, really..’...have never taken stuff seriously ourselves at some points and some situations, Mock...:laugh:...with a forum such as TiBB and the whole nature of it..we’re all here because of so many close bonds etc...so yes, with that...there will be ‘taken seriously’ as well...there couldn’t not be...we wouldn’t be human and we wouldn’t have balance with the absence of ‘taking things seriously’ at times....

Personally for me the only things that I'd take seriously on here and would be offended is if anyone insulted me on the Forum and wasn't joking, and then tried to defend themselves if I was to confront them about it. Also I wouldn't stand for bullying on the Forum either.

I know that we're all different though and some people do get more bothered about certain things that I just don't get personally, I suppose it is what makes the Forum so special to me is it isn't an echo chamber.:laugh:

[Kazanne]

..yeah Smudgie is actually the worst Cherie...mind you I think she has a golden touch or something because I report her daily and she’s still here as cheeky as ever...

...seriously though...many often seem to say ‘I don’t tend to report’...which I rarely do either so I’m equally guilty of that...but then there’s also ‘why does it feel inconsistent when that person said and was equally wrong etc’...when that might have a bearing on that...

There are certain people who deliberately goad though Ammi,just so they can report , these are the ones I try to avoid and I've done ok haven't had a ban for a long time other than yesterday, but sometimes I just think sod it,lol

[jet]

....hmmm, but then if you don’t personally report posts, Jet...but others may do with a post of yours for instance....does that not go in some way to explain what is felt to be ‘inconsistancy’...it could be more which posts are reported while others aren’t..?...

I've only had a few infractions so it doesn't really bother me Ammi, I accept them if fair. There was only the one last night leading to the ban which I felt was unfair and heavy handed and I'm over it.
There are bigger issues unfortunately.

[smudgie]

....ooops, there she is...hang on, I’ll edit../..delete my post ...you creeping up on us Smudgie...

I must say, this is one of the best threads in a good while.
A lot has been explained how the system works.
Each and everyone of us can get a bit heated in a debate, it's just knowing where not to cross the line.
For me the line is crossed when it gets to slinging personal insults around or making snide remarks.:shrug:

No exactly rocket science.

[Mystic Mock]

i always feel quite intimidated in sd, lots of intelligent people :laugh:

Don't worry Matthew, myself and The Truth have posted in that section, if we can then you'll do okay in there as you can't come off any worse.:laugh:

I'll stop posting in the thread for a bit now, sorry guys.

[Jordan.]

I've definitely noticed it a bit more lately on the SD section, it's always been a place for debates/arguments, but I don't know it feels kinda like members really dislike each other on there which I've never felt like that before when visiting that section of the Forum.

I'm hoping that it's just me being OTT as I can be like that sometimes.

It's been this hostile on here before but back then everyone involved was just given lengthy bans and told to deal with it and it eventually stopped, there's too much pandering and tip toeing around certain members these days.

[Ammi]

There are certain people who deliberately goad though Ammi,just so they can report , these are the ones I try to avoid and I've done ok haven't had a ban for a long time other than yesterday, but sometimes I just think sod it,lol

I've only had a few infractions so it doesn't really bother me Ammi, I accept them if fair. There was only the one last night leading to the ban which I felt was unfair and heavy handed and I'm over it.
There are bigger issues unfortunately.

...I recall there was a ‘mass ban’ once before, which I think you were here for Kaz...the chat thread wars..:laugh:...and Ben was accused of being a heavy handed mod as well...but it must be awful for a moderator when personal stuff is so continuous, endless and persistent as well...they’re only human as well and would get exasperated at times with us all...we can be quite difficult to ‘manage’ I think....

[Ammi]

I must say, this is one of the best threads in a good while.
A lot has been explained how the system works.
Each and everyone of us can get a bit heated in a debate, it's just knowing where not to cross the line.
For me the line is crossed when it gets to slinging personal insults around or making snide remarks.:shrug:

No exactly rocket science.

..yeah I understand Smudgie and for me as well with the personal stuff...but people will get personal as well as that’s human nature in specific personalities and responses will be made also...it’s moderating it all I think is the tricky bit ...because we as members can log off or stop posting in a thread or whatever...we have choices which moderators don’t have when they have to make decisions or respond to reports etc...

[Kazanne]

..yeah I understand Smudgie and for me as well with the personal stuff...but people will get personal as well as that’s human nature in specific personalities and responses will be made also...it’s moderating it all I think is the tricky bit ...because we as members can log off or stop posting in a thread or whatever...we have choices which moderators don’t have when they have to make decisions or respond to reports etc...

Most of the mods manage to respond in a fair and understanding way Ammi, I would have thought impartiality was a criteria for being a mod, it comes to something really when you are put off posting in a forum and feel intimidated. We might be able to log off and stop posting but members have feelings too and mods can make a choice as to how they respond to people,sorry but that's how I feel.No hard feelings here,just disappointment really.

[Vicky.]

I am closing this for now. I have like 200 posts or so that I need to catch up on and from a glance its gone pretty bad, with it being basically a witch hunt...was a nice convo for a while at least.

Might reopen in a sec but trying to do 236872346 things at once here so it might be a while

[Vicky.]

On second thoughts, reopening now, didnt realise other staff members had already been in talking about it all...and it does not look as bad actually now as it did at first glance

Ignore me :laugh:

[reece(:]

I think I speak for many when I say this drama is distracting from the mods installing a like button and quote notification feature

https://i.imgur.com/iRB4IqF.gif

Important take away message :clap1:

[Mystic Mock]

It's been this hostile on here before but back then everyone involved was just given lengthy bans and told to deal with it and it eventually stopped, there's too much pandering and tip toeing around certain members these days.

I know what you're saying, but even back a few years ago the debates had an element of fun about them.

Maybe the Forum misses members like Lostalex who would make the SD section more fun.

[Kazanne]

I know what you're saying, but even back a few years ago the debates had an element of fun about them.

Maybe the Forum misses members like Lostalex who would make the SD section more fun.

Whatever happened to him Mocky ?

[Ammi]

On second thoughts, reopening now, didnt realise other staff members had already been in talking about it all...and it does not look as bad actually now as it did at first glance

Ignore me :laugh:

..yeah we usually do, you’re an awful mod, Vicky...very ignorable...

[Ammi]

...:laugh:..

[Rob!]

Ammi causing drama? :love:

[Mystic Mock]

Whatever happened to him Mocky ?

I don't know, did he get banned?

[jet]

..yeah we usually do, you’re an awful mod, Vicky...very ignorable...

Reported!

See, I'm practising this reporting stuff. I could get used to this. :laugh:

[AnnieK]

I think its clear to see the trouble causers now......Miss Ammi and Miss Smudgie.....:laugh:

[Tom4784]

I think its clear to see the trouble causers now......Miss Ammi and Miss Smudgie.....:laugh:

Working on their permabans as we speak!

[Kizzy]

I try to be an impartial on this forum as possible, mainly because at the end of the day...its a Big Brother Forum and I have enough **** in my real life without having to deal with beef on here. However, from the last couple of days my observations are:

1 - There is a definite pack mentality from all sides. The other day in the Anti-Semitic thread when it kicked off, it was reported in the chat threads as kicking off and then a mass influx of people came into the thread which inflamed it further leading to the bans. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, in real life people stick up for their friends but the problem comes when it is obviously happening and then people only see it from the other side.

2. People take a real bashing on here - just recently Brillo has had numerous character assassinations and now Dezzy is getting it. A lot of the people who are here supporting Dezzy saying it shouldn't be happening (and I agree it shouldn't on a public forum) are people who either took part or watch in amusement at the Brillo bashing.

I don't know what people get out of it - borne from frustration maybe but there needs to be a line drawn as the toxicity is getting worse on here and it used to be such a great forum.

Oh was that the issue? there was the usual tirade of 'oi you can't say that to my fren' without the slightest interest in the topic of debate... Thought as much.

[Kizzy]

....hmmm, but then if you don’t personally report posts, Jet...but others may do with a post of yours for instance....does that not go in some way to explain what is felt to be ‘inconsistancy’...it could be more which posts are reported while others aren’t..?...

I do I report insulting posts, and if the moderators agree then action is taken,
can't see any merit in taking abuse.
Of course then if someone gets banned there's the usual histrionics but I don't feel responsible in any way, if someone can't remain civil then they alone are accountable.

[Cherie]

I do I report insulting posts, and if the moderators agree then action is taken,
can't see any merit in taking abuse.
Of course then if someone gets banned there's the usual histrionics but I don't feel responsible in any way, if someone can't remain civil then they alone are accountable.

And no one nowhere has disputed that :laugh:

[Vicky.]

ould those edits/removals of specific posts etc be given a ‘one chance’ to the poster who made them to self edit or remove...like, what was ‘wrong’ with this post in terms of being insulting or personal to a member, you tell me..you go look, type thing, you go look at the ‘issue’ here and remove or self edit..?...could that be a possibility maybe...?...



I get where you are coming from, but the issue with this is that by the time the member chose to edit/delete, there will have been a lot of quoting generally...and maybe an argument will have sprung up about the edited bit and that...and its just not workable with how quickly threads can move on here.

...also :fist:

[chuff me dizzy]

But its okay for Withano to call Chuff's complaints aggressive, insulting and rude?
But okay, point taken.

Exactly .......

[Vicky.]

Can we try to keep this an adult conversation too please rather than yet another thread descending into baiting sniping and insulting ? We have endless threads along the same line, so one where people actually get on relatively well and actually listen to each others concerns..should not be too much to ask.

Not directed at anyone in particular but since yesterday there has been a large shift in the way people are posting in here.

[Ninastar]

I just wanna say, Dezzy is a poopnose. DOWN WITH DEZZY

[Maru]

Personally, nothing changes for me whether suggestions are taken or not. My ignore list will still be just as thick as it is currently, and I don't get infractions.

But from that... here is my view... it seems like TiBB has these rollover/aftermath threads quite frequently, but it almost always seems like nothing is done. I know there's probably issues keeping things from being implemented, I get this... but it would seem to be ridiculous to keep polling users when they've said multiple times what they want, and then nothing changes... I don't know the reason to this, I don't even want to guess... it just seems like it's caused a lot of blue-balling there. Not only for the users, but for the staff as well, since this will be the nth thread and nothing has really changed... (not placing any blame in stating this)

Also, it does seem mob rule is legion here. Some of that is a community issue, not a staff issue, but I do think that dividing moderators into sections is a fairer and more consistent system than what is in place, and these names should be on display... worrying about what users will whine about after ever change isn't really the point of it at all. The point is to add consistency and structure to the situation giving clear lines as to what is expected from the people moderating and from the users, and keeping problems in their respective areas... that's the most that I think can be achieved.

As for making people more amicable and getting along with each other... I think I'd said in the past, that people have become more allergic to censorship, and this is where moderating anything now is really difficult. In the past, we would've just locked all dumpsters fire. Not delete posts or anything, just lock them after a warn and then infractions handled in-thread AFTER warns (which should be easy to create a pattern with SD's failure rate)... the only things that are deleted really are heinous things that are real eyesores... but occasionally when we had a user that explodes and starts to meltdown in a thread, it's embarrassing for them, so we don't leave that up and sometimes we may give them an overnight ban if they're having a night (and won't shut up)...

I don't think SD is the only problem area... it's idealistic to think that handling just one area and cutting it off at the shoulder will solve it... there's a fanning of the flames in the chat threads (I've noticed), but nothing that's quite a rule break (most of the time)... those people don't get hauled off in chains as it seems like the most vocal users are punished. If those posts where they are retaliated against are deleted, then it's distorting the picture and also difficult to make either party own their "stuff"... SD is treated as a "problem child", when the issue is sometimes more complex. I think people pretty much separate into their respective "niches", and I think that's another problem... this forum is very clique-y. This is good and bad considering how small the activity is and there being 100 subsections... but I feel like it will be the death knell of TiBB if it is allowed to keep pulling at the seams... (and that may even be inexorable...)

Being unfiltered for a minute, I think the structure that is in place, has no backbone. I don't know that it's because of the individual moderators, but I do think that there's just too much leeway there and it needs to be sorted both internally and externally. Again, there have been several rollover threads... and even when those fixes seem ideal, there's fears about carrying them out. It's clear the staff here feels their hands are tied, is completely demoralized, and that's to be expected with a board full of rivaling cliques, but no clear idea (to them) of who is running things ... the staffing sounds as chaotic as the board atm.

I can't see personally how the current system could even be working. If it's all global moderators... there's no structure there, no expectations... just... browse the forum and have a free for all? All that means is that the most active mods get the most work, take the most on their shoulders, and the least active can easily coast by on delegating... sounds like a complete dumpster fire if I'm honest. I'd be habitually frustrated, to put it very nicely, if I were in that position. It's an unchecked system at the end of the day for all involved... and not at all in balance with the actual running of things.

The way it's worked at other communities, there's a splitting up of areas and usually 2-3 per area mods depending on schedules... it's divided up, and more mods are requested if required. You should have a 1-2 global moderators who can fill in gaps, and ideally an admin or two that is at least active part of the day... so really, 3-4 global moderators if you include admins... but it just depends on what is needed... but I've seen boards with more activity, but less moderators than this and they have made it work. (probably because they pick active enough staff)

Also, a suggestion probably nobody wants to hear... but maybe because TiBB is effectively downsized (inactivity), it may be time to cull/archive/merge some sections... just to make this simpler.

Anyway, I've written too much as it is as some things needed further explanation... just add my words in the suggestion bin. I acknowledge that I only see one side of the issue (public-facing) and while I saw the second part of what happened, I never saw the first... so while we're alluding to a "problem" here, obviously most of us only know some extent of it... but the rollover threads are all the same. Something isn't working and the current system can and should be improved...

[Kazanne]

Personally, nothing changes for me whether suggestions are taken or not. My ignore list will still be just as thick as it is currently, and I don't get infractions.

But from that... here is my view... it seems like TiBB has these rollover/aftermath threads quite frequently, but it almost always seems like nothing is done. I know there's probably issues keeping things from being implemented, I get this... but it would seem to be ridiculous to keep polling users when they've said multiple times what they want, and then nothing changes... I don't know the reason to this, I don't even want to guess... it just seems like it's caused a lot of blue-balling there. Not only for the users, but for the staff as well, since this will be the nth thread and nothing has really changed... (not placing any blame in stating this)

Also, it does seem mob rule is legion here. Some of that is a community issue, not a staff issue, but I do think that dividing moderators into sections is a fairer and more consistent system than what is in place, and these names should be on display... worrying about what users will whine about after ever change isn't really the point of it at all. The point is to add consistency and structure to the situation giving clear lines as to what is expected from the people moderating and from the users, and keeping problems in their respective areas... that's the most that I think can be achieved.

As for making people more amicable and getting along with each other... I think I'd said in the past, that people have become more allergic to censorship, and this is where moderating anything now is really difficult. In the past, we would've just locked all dumpsters fire. Not delete posts or anything, just lock them after a warn and then infractions handled in-thread AFTER warns (which should be easy to create a pattern with SD's failure rate)... the only things that are deleted really are heinous things that are real eyesores... but occasionally when we had a user that explodes and starts to meltdown in a thread, it's embarrassing for them, so we don't leave that up and sometimes we may give them an overnight ban if they're having a night (and won't shut up)...

I don't think SD is the only problem area... it's idealistic to think that handling just one area and cutting it off at the shoulder will solve it... there's a fanning of the flames in the chat threads (I've noticed), but nothing that's quite a rule break (most of the time)... those people don't get hauled off in chains as it seems like the most vocal users are punished. If those posts where they are retaliated against are deleted, then it's distorting the picture and also difficult to make either party own their "stuff"... SD is treated as a "problem child", when the issue is sometimes more complex. I think people pretty much separate into their respective "niches", and I think that's another problem... this forum is very clique-y. This is good and bad considering how small the activity is and there being 100 subsections... but I feel like it will be the death knell of TiBB if it is allowed to keep pulling at the seams...

Being unfiltered for a minute, I think the structure that is in place, has no backbone. I don't know that it's because of the individual moderators, but I do think that there's just too much leeway there and it needs to be sorted both internally and externally. Again, there have been several rollover threads... and even when those fixes seem ideal, there's fears about carrying them out. It's clear the staff here feels their hands are tied, is completely demoralized, and that's to be expected with a board full of rivaling cliques, but no clear idea (to them) of who is running things ... the staffing sounds as chaotic as the board atm.

I can't see personally how the current system could even be working. If it's all global moderators... there's no structure there, no expectations... just... browse the forum and have a free for all? All that means is that the most active mods get the most work, take the most on their shoulders, and the least active can easily coast by on delegating... sounds like a complete dumpster fire if I'm honest. I'd be habitually frustrated, to put it very nicely, if I were in that position. It's an unchecked system at the end of the day for all involved... and not at all in balance with the actual running of things.

The way it's worked at other communities, there's a splitting up of areas and usually 2-3 per area mods depending on schedules... it's divided up, and more mods are requested if required. You should have a 1-2 global moderators who can fill in gaps, and ideally an admin or two that is at least active part of the day... so really, 3-4 global moderators if you include admins... but it just depends on what is needed... but I've seen boards with more activity, but less moderators than this and they have made it work. (probably because they pick active enough staff)

Also, a suggestion probably nobody wants to hear... but maybe because TiBB is effectively downsized (inactivity), it may be time to cull/archive/merge some sections... just to make this simpler.

Anyway, I've written too much as it is as some things needed further explanation... just add my words in the suggestion bin. I acknowledge that I only see one side of the issue (public-facing) and while I saw the second part of what happened, I never saw the first... so while we're alluding to a "problem" here, obviously most of us only know some extent of it... but the rollover threads are all the same. Something isn't working and the current system can and should be improved...

Great post Maru :wavey:

[Rob!]

Great post Maru.

It does seem that the staff seem to be having problems of their own. Obviously, we don't see mod towers so I can't really comment on what goes on there. If changes are to be made though, there needs to be proper communication between everyone from mods upwards. Is the right support being given? Why are the mods the ones that seem to get it in the neck from members when things aren't going right?
The way things are going at the minute would suggest not? I'm not trying to poke at anyone in particular, in case it's coming across that way, but there wouldn't be as many problems otherwise, surely?

[Withano]

We’re all getting at the same thing here.

When is the first annual purge?

The night with no rules, and everyone is there to explicitly explain why we all hate each other. Get it all out of our system, and then pretend to love each other again at 7:01am the next morning, ready to keep it all to ourselves for the following 363 days.

I think this could be a cute early summer tradition

[Rob!]

Vicky suggested that months ago. I approved :clap1:

[Niamh.]

We’re all getting at the same thing here.

When is the first annual purge?

The night with no rules, and everyone is there to explicitly explain why we all hate each other. Get it all out of our system, and then pretend to love each other again at 7:01am the next morning, ready to keep it all to ourselves for the following 363 days.

I think this could be a cute early summer tradition

We literally did that one time and it was carnage :skull:

[Withano]

We literally did that one time and it was carnage :skull:

Its what the people want :clap1: bring ha back

[Ashley.]

We’re all getting at the same thing here.

When is the first annual purge?

The night with no rules, and everyone is there to explicitly explain why we all hate each other. Get it all out of our system, and then pretend to love each other again at 7:01am the next morning, ready to keep it all to ourselves for the following 363 days.

I think this could be a cute early summer tradition

It would be a bloody holiday for Marsh.

(But yes, I'd be interested to see how this would go down.)

[Rob!]

A purge every three years would be fun. Ratings to go through the roof?

[Ant.]

We’re all getting at the same thing here.

When is the first annual purge?

The night with no rules, and everyone is there to explicitly explain why we all hate each other. Get it all out of our system, and then pretend to love each other again at 7:01am the next morning, ready to keep it all to ourselves for the following 363 days.

I think this could be a cute early summer tradition

Perched for Purge to coincide with Civilian BB launch

[AnnieK]

Its a great idea to release tension and there could be some harmony restored if people could thrash out their differences but there very possibly could be some feelings seriously hurt.

[Withano]

People will be safe from the purge, unless they enter the purge thread, even the sly ***** wanting to put a joker emoji in there, youre going down.

[Rob!]

Omg imagine it on season.

[Greg!]

We’re all getting at the same thing here.

When is the first annual purge?

The night with no rules, and everyone is there to explicitly explain why we all hate each other. Get it all out of our system, and then pretend to love each other again at 7:01am the next morning, ready to keep it all to ourselves for the following 363 days.

I think this could be a cute early summer tradition

Can we please do this

[Niamh.]

Oh remember those awards, what were they called again i can't remember, the anti Most loved ones?

The site isn't called ThisisVicky.com :laugh2:

[Jordan.]

We used to have the Razzies and Most Hated

The only thing I've won on an tibb award was gruesome twosome with Stacey :flutter:

[Niamh.]

We used to have the Razzies and Most Hated

It wasn't called most hated though it was something else :think:

[Jordan.]

It wasn't called most hated though it was something else :think:

I think it got renamed to 'Controversial' to avoid controversy :omgno:

[Ashley.]

I think it got renamed to 'Controversial' to avoid controversy :omgno:

:joker:

[Withano]

Is a bit of a catch22, talking about how others break rules is kinda breaking the rules haha


Which is why The Purge is great. May 5th, 7pm.

[Vicky.]

It would be a bloody holiday for Marsh.

(But yes, I'd be interested to see how this would go down.)

Marsh is already on holiday I think :eyes:

[Cal.]

Ugh PLEASE let me drag people

[Vicky.]

See? Such a nasty post. You actually seem to take great pleasure in upsetting people, especially as most of your posts seem focussed on doing just that.
So you don't agree with Dezzy's rulings. Boo hoo for you. I know for a fact that he does nothing other than what he has already says he does. All the infractions and bans have to be agreed by the other mods before they are implemented, otherwise, I'm sure you would be receiving a great many more than you clearly do. So you think that he's acerbic and nasty. When dealing with the kind of posts you make, I know for a fact that there's a lot of people on here that hardly blame him. And yes, I'll probably end up getting infracted for this post, and that's fine. But like I've said, if lack of communication amongst the staff is the main issue, then it's posters who frequently like to cause trouble that are causing that problem.

No thats not quite right, we dont need to run infractions by each other but when one is given, it does create its own thread for others to discuss it if they disagree, all infractions are totally transparent. Its not possible to be giving them on the sly or anything. Generally its infractions that put shorter bans on people, but we do have the option to do outright bans if we feel its deserved (again though, we can challenge each other on those too and admin get the final say if we cannot sort it between ourselves).

Long bans need pretty much unanimous agreement on between staff members though, which is why so few are given and why it appears to take a very long time to do anything even when it seems to members that it should be a no brainer really :S