Should rapists be branded and given community service instead of jail.

[Parmy]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/30/rape-rarely-violent-doesnt-merit-jail-term-claims-germaine-greer/amp/

[Niamh.]

I don't know about branding or tattooing people but I think she might have a point with this part :

The issue of consent should be removed from prosecutions, Greer said, and some cases could be treated as grievous bodily harm – a crime that carries a lighter sentence and would therefore not prove so off-putting to juries. “Where it’s his word against hers and the penalty is seven years or something, juries won’t convict,” she said.

[Calderyon]

Rape sentences are already mild and should be much harsher than they are. At least in here, where you more times than usual get probational sentence (not going to jail) rather than actual jail time.

[Niamh.]

Rape sentences are already mild and should be much harsher than they are. At least in here, where you more times than usual get probational sentence (not going to jail) rather than actual jail time.

The point is the conviction rates are tiny

[Calderyon]

The point is the conviction rates are tiny

That is a problem.

Because of the difficulty of proving ones guilt for the lack of evidence?

[user104658]

"Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal right"

"I was found wandering in the street very confused and rescued, thank God, because the people in the car were a man and a woman. If there had been four men in that car I don’t think you would have heard of me again."

... ... She has some serious issues with men, doesn't she? Obviously there are reasons for that but it is somewhat sad that after all of these years, it still isn't something that she has worked through, and she's still living with that skewed and twisted perspective. She talks about it not profoundly affecting people in any huge way, but she seems somewhat unaware of how profoundly her experiences have affected her?

Basically, I don't think she really has a clear an unencumbered headspace to consider the topic of rape law in any meaningful way. It's informed by a jumble of her own prejudices and trauma.

[Niamh.]

That is a problem.

Because of the difficulty of proving ones guilt for the lack of evidence?

In most cases it's going to come down to his word against hers I'd imagine

[user104658]

That is a problem.

Because of the difficulty of proving ones guilt for the lack of evidence?

The problem is, though, the harsher the penalties the higher the bar is raised for "reasonable doubt". e.g. change the example to an extreme, a murder case... if the jury is 95% convinced that someone is guilty then chances are they will have no issue sending them off to a life sentence in prison. Change that sentence to the death penalty, and there is a much higher chance that the accused will simply walk free, because most juries are less likely to be willing to send someone to their death unless they are 100% sure of guilt.

Bringing it back to rape cases, sadly because of the nature of the crime and there usually being a lack of evidence, the "certainty" aspect can only ever really hover closer to 50/50...

[MTVN]

I kinda admire her outspokenness but I can't see her comments going down well with the sisterhood

[bots]

Heres the thing. The objective always is to get the person who committed a crime not do do it or something similar again.

In this day and age, we should be able to be a lot smarter than simply locking someone up. Branding is a no no I think, it just opens up the door for a return to the middle ages, but we have tracking equipment that is very accurate. We can confine people to their homes etc pretty easily.

Serious crimes like murder etc, still require some sort of custodial sentence, but many other crimes simply don't need this

[smudgie]

Different degrees of rape, different sentences.:shrug:

[Oliver_W]

I'm all for replacing penal sentences with community service, but only for things like theft, tax crimes, and minor assault. There's no point adding to the already cluttered prison system with people who were probably acting out of desperation/had too much to drink. There are plenty of things which need doing out there, but which local councils don't have the resources to address, so yeah, get minor criminals picking up rubbish etc.

Rapists and murderers on the other hand should absolutely continue to face jail time.

[Tom4784]

The idea of branding someone for any reason is barbaric and has no place in a civilised society.

It's a suggestion I've heard before and it's always comes from the same people who are all like 'MUSLIMS ARE GONNA TAKE OVER AND FORCE SHARIAH LAW ON US ALL!' and then they go around endorsing death penalties and branding people without realising the irony.

[Parmy]

The idea of branding someone for any reason is barbaric and has no place in a civilised society.

It's a suggestion I've heard before and it's always comes from the same people who are all like 'MUSLIMS ARE GONNA TAKE OVER AND FORCE SHARIAH LAW ON US ALL!' and then they go around endorsing death penalties and branding people without realising the irony.

Yes, i saw germaine greer in speakers corner hollering that through a loud speaker....all true, and not fake news.

[MTVN]

Don't think the branding thing was a serious suggestion tbf lol

[Redway]

Neither. Rapists can rot in hell fire instead.

[Redway]

Different degrees of rape, different sentences.:shrug:

Rape’s rape just as much as murder’s just plain murder. There’s no question of degree for the sickest crimes out there.

[Nicky91]

Neither. Rapists can rot in hell fire instead.

yup, what they do is just sickening, and some of their victims who survived these attacks, have to live with this their entire lives


:yuk:

[Tony Montana]

Has she got a Death Wish or Something?

[Parmy]

After watching inglorious bastards last night i think im begining to lean with branding repeat rapists.

[Nicky91]

After watching inglorious bastards last night i think im begining to lean with branding repeat rapists.

as long as the sick losers get the punishment they deserve i am happy


:thumbs:

[Matthew.]

no, this is Germaine Greer being ridiculous again

[Livia]

What kind of society would we have to be to do this? Imagine how much money Human Rights lawyers would make.

[Marsh.]

"Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal right"

"I was found wandering in the street very confused and rescued, thank God, because the people in the car were a man and a woman. If there had been four men in that car I don’t think you would have heard of me again."

... ... She has some serious issues with men, doesn't she? Obviously there are reasons for that but it is somewhat sad that after all of these years, it still isn't something that she has worked through, and she's still living with that skewed and twisted perspective. She talks about it not profoundly affecting people in any huge way, but she seems somewhat unaware of how profoundly her experiences have affected her?

Basically, I don't think she really has a clear an unencumbered headspace to consider the topic of rape law in any meaningful way. It's informed by a jumble of her own prejudices and trauma.

I stopped taking this woman seriously when she said all father's sexualise their daughters. A fruitcake of a woman.

[Marsh.]

Different degrees of rape, different sentences.:shrug:

Not really. Rape is rape, if it's a "lesser" crime, it's just another form of sexual assault. Rape is a specific sexual assault, surely?

[user104658]

Not really. Rape is rape, if it's a "lesser" crime, it's just another form of sexual assault. Rape is a specific sexual assault, surely?Well, there's rpae that causes other injuries, and not, but I guess you can easily get around that with in those cases charging with both rape and gbh/abh?

[RileyH]

The idea of branding someone for any reason is barbaric and has no place in a civilised society.

This D:

[Brillopad]

The idea of branding someone for any reason is barbaric and has no place in a civilised society.

It's a suggestion I've heard before and it's always comes from the same people who are all like 'MUSLIMS ARE GONNA TAKE OVER AND FORCE SHARIAH LAW ON US ALL!' and then they go around endorsing death penalties and branding people without realising the irony.

What civilised society - it is becoming less so by the day and a more dangerous one to live in for all of us. Generally the streets are more dangerous than they have been for some time with rape, the grooming of young vulnerable girls and knife crime and murder soaring.

A molly coddling philosophy that tolerates religious and cultural barbarism from some - so they can feel morally superior, whilst attempting to control and intimidate others to achieve their idealistic goals of ‘inclusivity’ that does far more harm than good - and all without realising the irony!

[Livia]

I've changed my mind, let's brand them and see how long it takes for people to have hysterics about their rights. Because the fact that little girls under 15 STILL undergo female circumcision in the UK and no one seems to be doing anything about it is a national disgrace. Tattoo? Definitely not. Have your clitoris cut off and your vagina sewn up, without anaesthetic and with unsterilized cutting tools... seemingly acceptable. FGM has been illegal since 2003 since when 170,000 female have gone through the procedure in the UK with no convictions at all.

[Vicky.]

I do admire Greer in general, but she has some totally bat**** views sometimes. I can see where she is coming from, but I disagree..and branding would never happen anyway tbh, though the branding was a joke, not serious.

I can see where she is coming from because lessening the sentence may mean incrasing the pathetic conviction rates that we currently have, but I really don't think it would work that way. I do think rapes with injuries should maybe be tried under something else, given so many violent rapists get off with it, usually as so many rape myths are brought up in court...and so many eople believe that crap. Tried under ABH or something maybe...like the recent Belfast trial, a wound in the vagina that was bleeding hours later...like, even consensual very rough sex would not end in an injury like that and someone going home crying.

I don't know where I stand on violent rapes being 'worse' than non violent rapes though. Ranking different rapes according to how it was done just doesn't seem right...

So yeah, I see where she is coming from. But I disagree with the community service thing and think lessening the sentence would just result in still piss poor convicion rates but the few who are actually convicted getting lighter sentences.

[Vicky.]

I've changed my mind, let's brand them and see how long it takes for people to have hysterics about their rights. Because the fact that little girls under 15 STILL undergo female circumcision in the UK and no one seems to be doing anything about it is a national disgrace. Tattoo? Definitely not. Have your clitoris cut off and your vagina sewn up, without anaesthetic and with unsterilized cutting tools... seemingly acceptable. FGM has been illegal since 2003 since when 170,000 female have gone through the procedure in the UK 2003 with no convictions at all.

FGM is something that makes me seriously irrationally (or rationally given the topic) mad. It does not seem to be taken seriously at all. And yes, no convictions despite it going on. But...its only girls right.

[The Slim Reaper]

I've changed my mind, let's brand them and see how long it takes for people to have hysterics about their rights. Because the fact that little girls under 15 STILL undergo female circumcision in the UK and no one seems to be doing anything about it is a national disgrace. Tattoo? Definitely not. Have your clitoris cut off and your vagina sewn up, without anaesthetic and with unsterilized cutting tools... seemingly acceptable. FGM has been illegal since 2003 since when 170,000 female have gone through the procedure in the UK 2003 with no convictions at all.

The genital mutilation of both sexes is a terrible thing. No one should defend the people doing it and they should be prosecuted and hit with harsh punishments if caught, just like any other invasive crime; but even then they still have certain rights, and those rights should still be adhered to.

Male circumcision isn't anywhere near as barbaric as it's female version, but cutting a babies penis should also be illegal, and definitely not provided on the NHS.

[Denver]

The genital mutilation of both sexes is a terrible thing. No one should defend the people doing it and they should be prosecuted and hit with harsh punishments if caught, just like any other invasive crime; but even then they still have certain rights, and those rights should still be adhered to.

Male circumcision isn't anywhere near as barbaric as it's female version, but cutting a babies penis should also be illegal, and definitely not provided on the NHS.

Male Circumcision is also sometime medically need though

[smudgie]

Not really. Rape is rape, if it's a "lesser" crime, it's just another form of sexual assault. Rape is a specific sexual assault, surely?

Rape is rape, I agree, however there are different degrees.
All rapists found guilty of the crime should be punished accordingly.
Date rape.
A “friend” helps himself when helping you to bed due to you being drunk.
A partner decides he will turn you over and force anal sex against your wishes.
A stranger viciously attacks and rapes you walking home late at night (or any other time).
The mental anguish should be taken into account in all cases.

[Vicky.]

I didn't know circumcision was on the NHS...is that not just when its for medical reasons?

[Livia]

The genital mutilation of both sexes is a terrible thing. No one should defend the people doing it and they should be prosecuted and hit with harsh punishments if caught, just like any other invasive crime; but even then they still have certain rights, and those rights should still be adhered to.

Male circumcision isn't anywhere near as barbaric as it's female version, but cutting a babies penis should also be illegal, and definitely not provided on the NHS.

You cannot equate female circumcision with male circumcision, although men inevitably try to. Circumcision in boys isn't always a religious thing, it's often done for health reasons. Cutting off the clitoris, sewing up the vagina so that the girls have endless and sometimes life-threatening problems with sex and childbirth has no health benefits at all. Male and female circumcision are completely different discussions.

[The Slim Reaper]

Male Circumcision is also sometime medically need though

Then that's a different issue altogether and should be provided. A hysterectomy is a woman's choice, but sometimes it's needed for medical reasons so there is a clear and obvious distinction.

[Livia]

I didn't know circumcision was on the NHS...is that not just when its for medical reasons?

Not in Judaism... I would think the NHS would only do for health but I'm not 100% sure.

[Livia]

Then that's a different issue altogether and should be provided. A hysterectomy is a woman's choice, but sometimes it's needed for medical reasons so there is a clear and obvious distinction.

How many women do you know who've chosen to have a hysterectomy?

[Livia]

We've gone way off topic, and I'm afraid it's my fault. Soz...

[Vicky.]

Yeah, there is never a reason for FGM..and its so much more extreme than male circumcision. I do agree mind, that male circumcision should only be allowed for medical reasons in children as I do not believe that parents 'own' their babies body, and I think it should be left to the child to decide if they want it done when they are an adult. But male circumscision is nothing like female.

I have huge issues with anything that parents decide for their kids before the children are old enough to understand mind. Like..I find it horrible when young babies have pierced ears ffs, so I think I am a bit extreme in my views about consent and stuff.

[AnnieK]

Then that's a different issue altogether and should be provided. A hysterectomy is a woman's choice, but sometimes it's needed for medical reasons so there is a clear and obvious distinction.

Who can choose a hysterectomy? My mum had to fight for one even though she had major problems for years.......she would have chosen it but it was only offered once she had suffered loads of other "solutions" and she was seriously anaemic

[Denver]

Then that's a different issue altogether and should be provided. A hysterectomy is a woman's choice, but sometimes it's needed for medical reasons so there is a clear and obvious distinction.

I'm sure the UK has one of the lowest numbers of MC where as America almost everyone has it

[The Slim Reaper]

You cannot equate female circumcision with male circumcision, although men inevitably try to. Circumcision in boys isn't always a religious thing, it's often done for health reasons. Cutting off the clitoris, sewing up the vagina so that the girls have endless and sometimes life-threatening problems with sex and childbirth has no health benefits at all. Male and female circumcision are completely different discussions.

I didn't. I specifically said "Male circumcision isn't anywhere near as barbaric as it's female version". Not sure what health reasons would be prevented by genital mutilation, but if it's needed then by all means they should have it when needed.

[Vicky.]

I didn't. I specifically said "Male circumcision isn't anywhere near as barbaric as it's female version". Not sure what health reasons would be prevented by genital mutilation, but if it's needed then by all means they should have it when needed.

Its usually like..a really tight painful foreskin.

I do wonder sometimes how many men would chose to have it done as adults, if it hadn't been done to them as kids. I doubt it would be many. I know a lot of men say they are happy with it, but they have known nothing else..and I cannot see men queuing up to have bits of their penis chopped off.

Also now wondering if I should split this discussion off from this thread into its own...but splicing usually goes wrong when I do it :laugh:

[Livia]

I didn't. I specifically said "Male circumcision isn't anywhere near as barbaric as it's female version". Not sure what health reasons would be prevented by genital mutilation, but if it's needed then by all means they should have it when needed.

I was talking about FGM. And it wasn't long before someone mentioned male circumcision even thought the two cannot be compared but it's what always happens when FGM is mentioned. Why IS that? And then you compared male circumcision to hysterectomy, imagining that women would choose that. I think you've got a little off-course.

[Livia]

Its usually like..a really tight painful foreskin.

I do wonder sometimes how many men would chose to have it done as adults, if it hadn't been done to them as kids. I doubt it would be many. I know a lot of men say they are happy with it, but they have known nothing else..and I cannot see men queuing up to have bits of their penis chopped off.

Also now wondering if I should split this discussion off from this thread into its own...but splicing usually goes wrong when I do it :laugh:

If there is a separate thread I suspect we'll end up discussing whether FGM and male circumcision are at all comparable and we'll get further and further away from the crux of the matter. I wonder whether this phenomena has contributed to the shameful lack of conviction.

[Vicky.]

If there is a separate thread I suspect we'll end up discussing whether FGM and male circumcision are at all comparable and we'll get further and further away from the crux of the matter. I wonder whether this phenomena has contributed to the shameful lack of conviction.

Well yeah..you are probably right there. I think it might have something to do with it, people see it as 'well its fine when its boys' (which again I should state, I don't think its fine in boys) but its totally different really. A valid comparison would maybe be..actully cutting the whole penis off in boys so they would never have any sexual function.

[Livia]

Well yeah..you are probably right there. I think it might have something to do with it, people see it as 'well its fine when its boys' (which again I should state, I don't think its fine in boys) but its totally different really. A valid coparison would maybe be..actully cutting the whole penis off in boys so they would never have any sexual function.

Cut off the whole tip, where the sensations are greatest, we don't want them enjoying sex... and sew up the little hole so it's hard to pee. And it still wouldn't be as severe as FGM,

[The Slim Reaper]

I was talking about FGM. And it wasn't long before someone mentioned male circumcision even thought the two cannot be compared but it's what always happens when FGM is mentioned. Why IS that? And then you compared male circumcision to hysterectomy, imagining that women would choose that. I think you've got a little off-course.

You went off topic to make a point about FGM in a thread that had nothing to do with FGM, but yeah, I went a little off course.

I was wrong about the hysterectomy thing, but let me turn it around and use men and vasectomy instead. The principal is the same, but I was incorrect on my initial assertion.

Have your thread back, I'm out.

[Livia]

You went off topic to make a point about FGM in a thread that had nothing to do with FGM, but yeah, I went a little off course.

I was wrong about the hysterectomy thing, but let me turn it around and use men and vasectomy instead. The principal is the same, but I was incorrect on my initial assertion.

Have your thread back, I'm out.

You can make all the analogies you like, it doesn't alter the fact that FGM and male circumcision are not the same thing. You didn't even know male circumcision is mostly done for hygiene and medical reasons! Maybe it's best you're out.

[Parmy]

Its usually like..a really tight painful foreskin.

I do wonder sometimes how many men would chose to have it done as adults, if it hadn't been done to them as kids. I doubt it would be many. I know a lot of men say they are happy with it, but they have known nothing else..and I cannot see men queuing up to have bits of their penis chopped off.

Also now wondering if I should split this discussion off from this thread into its own...but splicing usually goes wrong when I do it :laugh:

I dont mind it turning this way vicky...very interesting opinions...leave as is please.

[user104658]

Yeah, there is never a reason for FGM..and its so much more extreme than male circumcision. I do agree mind, that male circumcision should only be allowed for medical reasons in children as I do not believe that parents 'own' their babies body


I was circumcised at age 7 for medical reasons but I do agree with this, and for the same reasons, it's essentially cosmetic surgery if it isn't for a medical reason and NO parent has the right, in my opinion, to alter their child's body permanently for cosmetic or cultural reasons. When it's religious I think at the very least it should be left until the teens, for consent reasons. Also because it should really never be done under the age of 4 or 5. The foreskin is actually "attached" (doesn't retract) before that age, and removal before that age is what causes most of the scarring / damage that some people report in later life. It's a MUCH more simple procedure after the point where the skin can retract on its own.

But yes in terms of comparison... FGM isn't even close to the same physical procedure. The male equivalent of removal of the clitoris would be removing the entire glans (bell end, or "gerry helmet", if you will) :umm2:.

[Redway]

Rape is rape, I agree, however there are different degrees.
All rapists found guilty of the crime should be punished accordingly.
Date rape.
A “friend” helps himself when helping you to bed due to you being drunk.
A partner decides he will turn you over and force anal sex against your wishes.
A stranger viciously attacks and rapes you walking home late at night (or any other time).
The mental anguish should be taken into account in all cases.

Rape’s rape no matter what. Don’t matter the circumstances.

I wouldn’t be looking for ways to get people lighter sentences for commiting the sickest crime there is when they’re all guilty of the exact same thing.

Mental anguish is subjective. How should that be a factor in deciding what sort of prison sentence rapists get?

[user104658]

Rape’s rape no matter what. Don’t matter the circumstances.

I wouldn’t be looking for ways to get people lighter sentences for commiting the sickest crime there is when they’re all guilty of the exact same thing.

Mental anguish is subjective. How should that be a factor in deciding what sort of prison sentence rapists get?

But conviction rates are abysmal, the sentence for most rapists is "nothing at all because they walk out of court free".

What if lightening sentences resulted in a significantly higher conviction rate? Is it better for fewer rapists to receive harsh sentences and the majority to get away with it, or for more rapists to receive a lighter custodial sentence than before but at least be convicted (and thus, added to the sex offenders register)?

That's the crux of the discussion really but you're overlooking pragmatism in favour of outrage.

[bots]

But conviction rates are abysmal, the sentence for most rapists is "nothing at all because they walk out of court free".

What if lightening sentences resulted in a significantly higher conviction rate? Is it better for fewer rapists to receive harsh sentences and the majority to get away with it, or for more rapists to receive a lighter custodial sentence than before but at least be convicted (and thus, added to the sex offenders register)?

That's the crux of the discussion really but you're overlooking pragmatism in favour of outrage.

But the government and prison authorities are trying to free up spaces by releasing those with lighter custodial sentences, so I'm afraid that tactic doesn't have a future. We need to change in line with technology. People can live in the community now, but be completely restricted in what they do. We are talking here about criminals that would usually avoid prosecution, so tag em, track em and get them on the sex offenders register ... at least then they are registered as guilty.

[Kazanne]

I've changed my mind, let's brand them and see how long it takes for people to have hysterics about their rights. Because the fact that little girls under 15 STILL undergo female circumcision in the UK and no one seems to be doing anything about it is a national disgrace. Tattoo? Definitely not. Have your clitoris cut off and your vagina sewn up, without anaesthetic and with unsterilized cutting tools... seemingly acceptable. FGM has been illegal since 2003 since when 170,000 female have gone through the procedure in the UK with no convictions at all.

That's shocking Livia,I didn't know that,I knew it happened but not on such a scale and I thought it was rare in the UK, it's disgusting that there have been no convictions.:shocked:

[Parmy]

170, 000 cases and not one conviction.....


Lets all let that sink in for a bit.....now ask why there have been no convictions?

[The Slim Reaper]

170, 000 cases and not one conviction.....


Lets all let that sink in for a bit.....now ask why there have been no convictions?

Is it something to do with the PC liberal left?

Or

As this isn't mainstream muslim practice, you're dealing with an even more isolated community within an already increasingly isolated community, so you will have trouble gathering evidence, taking witness statements, and then expecting people to witness against their own families with intimidation and honour practices (Which again, are abhorrent practices), just like any criminals attempting to cover up their crimes.

It's actually a genuine issue that would make a worthy discussion thread, but I somehow get the feeling that an honest discussion isn't what this about as there was no genuine segue on to the topic.

[smudgie]

Rape’s rape no matter what. Don’t matter the circumstances.

I wouldn’t be looking for ways to get people lighter sentences for commiting the sickest crime there is when they’re all guilty of the exact same thing.

Mental anguish is subjective. How should that be a factor in deciding what sort of prison sentence rapists get?

Try turning it on it’s head.
Rather than lighter sentencing for the less violent rapes, make it heavier sentencing for the most violent.
Being in fear of your life and violently assaulted would get the highest sentencing and punishment for me.

[arista]

"Rape is rarely violent and doesn’t merit a jail term,
claims Germaine Greer"

Yes She has a way
with her words.
She was on CNN Talk HD
the other week.

She was at the Hay Festival
this week,
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2018/05/30/TELEMMGLPICT000164984243_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberW d9EgFPZtcLiMQfyf2A9a6I9YchsjMeADBa08.jpeg?imwidth= 450

[Marsh.]

Rape is rape, I agree, however there are different degrees.
All rapists found guilty of the crime should be punished accordingly.
Date rape.
A “friend” helps himself when helping you to bed due to you being drunk.
A partner decides he will turn you over and force anal sex against your wishes.
A stranger viciously attacks and rapes you walking home late at night (or any other time).
The mental anguish should be taken into account in all cases.Yeah but each of those cases are rape, no matter the circumstances. I wouldn't say those were degrees.

There are degrees of sexual harassment/assault, rape being one. But all of the instances you list should carry the same punishment as they are the same crime whether the victim was attacked by a loved one, a stranger, in a dark alley or in their own home.

[Marsh.]

Well, there's rpae that causes other injuries, and not, but I guess you can easily get around that with in those cases charging with both rape and gbh/abh?Oh yeah, definitely. If a rape also included a vicious beating for good measure then other charges would or should be thrown in too.

[Marsh.]

What civilised society - it is becoming less so by the day and a more dangerous one to live in for all of us. Generally the streets are more dangerous than they have been for some time with rape, the grooming of young vulnerable girls and knife crime and murder soaring.

A molly coddling philosophy that tolerates religious and cultural barbarism from some - so they can feel morally superior, whilst attempting to control and intimidate others to achieve their idealistic goals of ‘inclusivity’ that does far more harm than good - and all without realising the irony!So your answer to tackling the decreasing civility in our society is to make it more so?

Nah.

[Tom4784]

I've changed my mind, let's brand them and see how long it takes for people to have hysterics about their rights. Because the fact that little girls under 15 STILL undergo female circumcision in the UK and no one seems to be doing anything about it is a national disgrace. Tattoo? Definitely not. Have your clitoris cut off and your vagina sewn up, without anaesthetic and with unsterilized cutting tools... seemingly acceptable. FGM has been illegal since 2003 since when 170,000 female have gone through the procedure in the UK with no convictions at all.

Apples and oranges. One example does not really impact the other.

FGM is vile and more should be done to prevent it and the law should be altered to make convictions easier but none of that is related to the thread at hand.

[Tom4784]

What civilised society - it is becoming less so by the day and a more dangerous one to live in for all of us. Generally the streets are more dangerous than they have been for some time with rape, the grooming of young vulnerable girls and knife crime and murder soaring.

A molly coddling philosophy that tolerates religious and cultural barbarism from some - so they can feel morally superior, whilst attempting to control and intimidate others to achieve their idealistic goals of ‘inclusivity’ that does far more harm than good - and all without realising the irony!

You call out barbarism while endorsing it through the idea of branding people and other extreme measures. I honestly don't understand how you can't see your own hypocrisy.

[Parmy]

Is it something to do with the PC liberal left?

Or

As this isn't mainstream muslim practice, you're dealing with an even more isolated community within an already increasingly isolated community, so you will have trouble gathering evidence, taking witness statements, and then expecting people to witness against their own families with intimidation and honour practices (Which again, are abhorrent practices), just like any criminals attempting to cover up their crimes.

It's actually a genuine issue that would make a worthy discussion thread, but I somehow get the feeling that an honest discussion isn't what this about as there was no genuine segue on to the topic.

This has nothing to do with isolating muslims though, fgm is practiced by christians as well.