Liberals have lost the argument on the migrant crisis

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://media.breitbart.com/media/2017/07/Italy-Migrant-Boat-640x480.png

It’s been proven a myth that you can have strong borders without willing the means

It is tough leading a shaky coalition government, following poor election results, and with your personal support dwindling.
Forced by your own ministers into compromises you do not believe in,
and reduced to proposing policies that will be rejected by other EU member states, it can be embarrassing.

Yet Angela Merkel fights on as Germany’s Chancellor.

Europe’s migration crisis – sparked by Merkel’s government three years ago – has quickened the populist advance across the continent.
The Hungarian government is busy vilifying immigrants and minorities.
The Italian Prime Minister talks about drawing up lists of Romany gypsies.
For the first time since the Second World War, Nazis sit in Germany’s Reichstag.
And even in the great liberal victory won by Emmanuel Macron, one third of the electorate voted for the French National Front.

Last week, more than 500 migrants arrived in Greece, nearly 900 reached Italy, and almost 1,200 arrived in Spain.
And the authorities must now house, educate and integrate the many people who reached Europe in the last three years.
By 2020 the German government will have spent an estimated £74 billion dealing with the domestic costs of the crisis.

To maintain social cohesion, you need to control immigration.
To control immigration, you need strong borders.
And to have strong borders, you need to be prepared to adopt tough policies.

What good does encouraging migrants to undertake dangerous boat journeys do?

The UN says about 10,000 people have died or gone missing crossing the Mediterranean since 2016.

What about putting people’s lives into the hands of criminal gangs? EU data says many migrants have fled Syria,
but others come from countries including Albania, Eritrea, Nigeria, Pakistan and Vietnam.
Many are economic migrants who have reached Europe aided by people traffickers.

And why should we continue an asylum model that favours the strong over the weak, the young over the old, and men over women?
Three quarters of asylum seekers in Britain are men and the majority are in their early twenties. Too often, with today’s system,
the vulnerable get left behind.


If the migration crisis taught us anything, it is that virtue signaling is not a policy: the only policy with virtue is one that works.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/04/liberals-have-lost-argument-migrant-crisis-now-europe-needs/


Thoughts?

[Nicky91]

don't let them in, no country should let them in they only cause trouble in our countries, which we already got enough even without them

[Kazanne]

Where are the women and children ?

[arista]

Where are the women and children ?


Yes not on
the packed boat.

[Crimson Dynamo]

"Three quarters of asylum seekers in Britain are men and the majority are in their early twenties."

[Nicky91]

Yes not on
the packed boat.

so they are sexist refugees, sending the men first


hmmm that was way different back in the time with Titanic, it was women and children first back then

[Brillopad]

https://media.breitbart.com/media/2017/07/Italy-Migrant-Boat-640x480.png

It’s been proven a myth that you can have strong borders without willing the means

It is tough leading a shaky coalition government, following poor election results, and with your personal support dwindling.
Forced by your own ministers into compromises you do not believe in,
and reduced to proposing policies that will be rejected by other EU member states, it can be embarrassing.

Yet Angela Merkel fights on as Germany’s Chancellor.

Europe’s migration crisis – sparked by Merkel’s government three years ago – has quickened the populist advance across the continent.
The Hungarian government is busy vilifying immigrants and minorities.
The Italian Prime Minister talks about drawing up lists of Romany gypsies.
For the first time since the Second World War, Nazis sit in Germany’s Reichstag.
And even in the great liberal victory won by Emmanuel Macron, one third of the electorate voted for the French National Front.

Last week, more than 500 migrants arrived in Greece, nearly 900 reached Italy, and almost 1,200 arrived in Spain.
And the authorities must now house, educate and integrate the many people who reached Europe in the last three years.
By 2020 the German government will have spent an estimated £74 billion dealing with the domestic costs of the crisis.

To maintain social cohesion, you need to control immigration.
To control immigration, you need strong borders.
And to have strong borders, you need to be prepared to adopt tough policies.

What good does encouraging migrants to undertake dangerous boat journeys do?

The UN says about 10,000 people have died or gone missing crossing the Mediterranean since 2016.

What about putting people’s lives into the hands of criminal gangs? EU data says many migrants have fled Syria,
but others come from countries including Albania, Eritrea, Nigeria, Pakistan and Vietnam.
Many are economic migrants who have reached Europe aided by people traffickers.

And why should we continue an asylum model that favours the strong over the weak, the young over the old, and men over women?
Three quarters of asylum seekers in Britain are men and the majority are in their early twenties. Too often, with today’s system,
the vulnerable get left behind.


If the migration crisis taught us anything, it is that virtue signaling is not a policy: the only policy with virtue is one that works.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/04/liberals-have-lost-argument-migrant-crisis-now-europe-needs/


Thoughts?

Something many of us understood. Others get bogged down with ideology and seemingly being fair with little thought to the long term consequences on everyone.

[kirklancaster]

Where are the women and children ?

Where indeed, Kaz - Haven't we realists been pointing this farce out for what it is for years on here?

[Nicky91]

about these people i don't give a damn


but the innocent women and children, well they do deserve to get better lives in another country


so i'm not really against the refugees, but only the people who are innocent in all that chaos in their countries, especially women and their children should get better lives and the children deserve proper education

[chuff me dizzy]

Where indeed, Kaz - Haven't we realists been pointing this farce out for what it is for years on here?

Sure have Kirk !!

[user104658]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".

[Niamh.]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".

Very well put TS. I've said it a thousand times in these discussions, it's very easy for us all to sit back and judge these people while we're lucky enough to be born on this side of the world but the inability to put yourself in their shoes and see them as real people, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers etc is so dehumanising and upsetting.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Very well put TS. I've said it a thousand times in these discussions, it's very easy for us all to sit back and judge these people while we're lucky enough to be born on this side of the world but the inability to put yourself in their shoes and see them as real people, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers etc is so dehumanising and upsetting.

I dont think anyone is politically. But when making big decisions from the top you have to be logical and sensible. No one is judging the economic migrants in that way but to pretend they are war ravaged desperates is naive and dangerous.

We already to foreign aid to help counties at source but we dont say "hey dont like your country well come here and live and we will look after you for free."

no

[Niamh.]

I dont think anyone is politically. But when making big decisions from the top you have to be logical and sensible. No one is judging the economic migrants in that way but to pretend they are war ravaged desperates is naive and dangerous.

We already to foreign aid to help counties at source but we dont say "hey dont like your country well come here and live and we will look after you for free."

no

I know that and I understand we can't help everyone but I also agree with TS that alot of "anti immigrants people" are unnecessarily scathing and unsympathetic aswell

[Crimson Dynamo]

I know that and I understand we can't help everyone but I also agree with TS that alot of "anti immigrants people" are unnecessarily scathing and unsympathetic aswell

Well that is just people. Personally I feel nothing for them or their plight, but you obviously do - just differences in people. But politically you cant afford to be emotional so much.

[Niamh.]

Well that is just people. Personally I feel nothing for them or their plight, but you obviously do - just differences in people. But politically you cant afford to be emotional so much.

I think Politics without some emotion would be awful tbh

[Cherie]

Is that Black Dagger in the specs in the middle second row from the back trafficking :laugh:

[Cherie]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".


Well yes more than likely, but then when people echo the same sentiment in that they want their kids to go to local schools, they want services that they pay for to be workable and not stretched beyond breaking point, they want to travel to work in relative comfort not be squished nose to nose with fellow travellers, elderly people want to live in an area they recognise and that they feel comfortable in and not alien, in other words they want to maintain a decent quality of life, the racist card is pulled out of the hat, this empathy only seems to work one way for some

[Brillopad]

I know that and I understand we can't help everyone but I also agree with TS that alot of "anti immigrants people" are unnecessarily scathing and unsympathetic aswell

Isn’t that part of what has been said though that people get so concerned and frustrated at the sheer levels and the impact that is likely to have on everyone else that it hardens otherwise caring hearts.

People such as Corbyn and Abbott want to let everyone in and there is evidence to suggest that will not be a positive situation for the rest of us. It is mainly strong young men coming to Europe and we have already seen some negatives effects of that.

[Nicky91]

Isn’t that part of what has been said though that people get so concerned and frustrated at the sheer levels and the impact that is likely to have on everyone else that it harden otherwise caring hearts.

People such as Corbyn and Abbott want to let everyone in and there is evidence to suggest that will not be a positive situation for the rest of us. It is mainly strong young men coming to Europe and we have already seen some negatives effects of that.

i agree, rapists and thieves are among them


but also they aren't the ones who need to get away from those horrible countries, they can easily give up their place for the women and children who only suffer in those countries


so i'm only wanting to allow refugees in if it is the ones who deserve to get away from all the trouble in their own countries

[Kizzy]

about these people i don't give a damn


but the innocent women and children, well they do deserve to get better lives in another country


so i'm not really against the refugees, but only the people who are innocent in all that chaos in their countries, especially women and their children should get better lives and the children deserve proper education

The Telegraph could never accuse you of virtue signalling then Nicky.

[Kizzy]

Isn’t that part of what has been said though that people get so concerned and frustrated at the sheer levels and the impact that is likely to have on everyone else that it hardens otherwise caring hearts.

People such as Corbyn and Abbott want to let everyone in and there is evidence to suggest that will not be a positive situation for the rest of us. It is mainly strong young men coming to Europe and we have already seen some negatives effects of that.

We have seen the effects of children coming over, they die.

Then the question is asked ' why did they send them? They must have known they would die!'

What is really meant is ... nobody come, we don't want you. Whatever the issue is in your country we don't care.

[Nicky91]

The Telegraph could never accuse you of virtue signalling then Nicky.

i'm sorry but i just stand up for the women and children in those awful countries

[Twosugars]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".

well said

[Crimson Dynamo]

We have seen the effects of children coming over, they die.

Then the question is asked ' why did they send them? They must have known they would die!'

What is really meant is ... nobody come, we don't want you. Whatever the issue is in your country we don't care.

Yes because of people traffickers and their greed for money

nothing to do with Europe

[Brillopad]

well said

And who has said that. Certain people read between the lines of other peoples’ concerns and make their own interpretation of what they actually think. They don’t care about how the concerns are expressed they just see that they don’t support large scale immigration therefore they are whatever nasty word they pick. It isn’t clever or necessarily true - but they don’t care - they will attach that label to suit.

People then develop a tough skin - they have to.

[chuff me dizzy]

Can I just ask the people who would fill our small island with these people ...... Do you have a spare room or a sofa ,if so why don't YOU take a few of them into your home ?

[Livia]

Our infrastructure is under enormous pressure, people are homeless, people are jobless, the NHS is struggling... there is no more room to be able to allow people to wander in. We must of course continue take genuine refugees, especially families, through the UN. We can't let everyone in because they think it's easier here.

[Nicky91]

Our infrastructure is under enormous pressure, people are homeless, people are jobless, the NHS is struggling... there is no more room to be able to allow people to wander in. We must of course continue take genuine refugees, especially families, through the UN. We can't let everyone in because they think it's easier here.

yeah ok maybe not in UK is the ideal place for some of the families, perhaps in another country where there are less problems


UK should solve it's own problems first and then think of this tbh

[Beso]

Half these cowardly men have probably fled for fear of death, leaving thier wives and kids to be raped and killed.. .such brave honourable men...**** off home.

[Tom4784]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".

It's because people like that don't really have a leg to stand on in an argument unless they misrepresent things to suit their viewpoints. Any kind of empathy towards immigrants = WE WANT OPEN BORDERS! LET EVERYONE IN!

The whole blaming of 'liberals' and all the twisted arguments fall apart when you look at things realistically but that would mean people who use those arguments would have to listen to things they don't want to hear and that'll never happen. Who cares about the truth or facts as long as someone's spinning a tale that appeals to you?

[chuff me dizzy]

Half these cowardly men have probably fled for fear of death, leaving thier wives and kids to be raped and killed.. .such brave honourable men...**** off home.

While they come over here to rape our children and women

[Niamh.]

Half these cowardly men have probably fled for fear of death, leaving thier wives and kids to be raped and killed.. .such brave honourable men...**** off home.

While they come over here to rape our children and women

****ing hell. Nasty nasty nasty.

[Twosugars]

It's because people like that don't really have a leg to stand on in an argument unless they misrepresent things to suit their viewpoints. Any kind of empathy towards immigrants = WE WANT OPEN BORDERS! LET EVERYONE IN!

The whole blaming of 'liberals' and all the twisted arguments fall apart when you look at things realistically but that would mean people who use those arguments would have to listen to things they don't want to hear and that'll never happen. Who cares about the truth or facts as long as someone's spinning a tale that appeals to you?

very true

[chuff me dizzy]

****ing hell. Nasty nasty nasty.

Its a fact ....Rochdale, Rotherham to name but 2

[user104658]

Its a fact ....Rochdale, Rotherham to name but 2

"It happens, therefore ALL of them are doing it and that's why they come to the UK"

Such blinkered, small-minded, extremist logic.

[Niamh.]

Its a fact ....Rochdale, Rotherham to name but 2

The men in the OPs picture don't look Pakistani to me? or is it just all brown people are the same and bad or? (also forgot there are no white people paedophiles)

[kirklancaster]

It's because people like that don't really have a leg to stand on in an argument unless they misrepresent things to suit their viewpoints. Any kind of empathy towards immigrants = WE WANT OPEN BORDERS! LET EVERYONE IN!

The whole blaming of 'liberals' and all the twisted arguments fall apart when you look at things realistically but that would mean people who use those arguments would have to listen to things they don't want to hear and that'll never happen. Who cares about the truth or facts as long as someone's spinning a tale that appeals to you?

And on just about every SD thread, Dezzy for a long time now - YOU are the main culprit for REACHING and PREACHING and misrepresenting and spinning false facts to suit your agendas.

And THAT is a FACT.

[Kizzy]

Yes because of people traffickers and their greed for money

nothing to do with Europe

And why are they so desperate they give everything they have and risk their lives again?...

[chuff me dizzy]

And on just about every SD thread, Dezzy for a long time now - YOU are the main culprit for REACHING and PREACHING and misrepresenting and spinning false facts to suit your agendas.

And THAT is a FACT.

:worship: Boy are you spot on here my dear Kirk !!

[Twosugars]

****ing hell. Nasty nasty nasty.

have you noticed, how of all topics it's usually immigration where some people behave appallingly and use appalling language? and resist discussing it calmly and reasonably?
hatred of immigrants and immigration is so deep in some, discussing it in a civilised manner is simply too much, they can't help getting hysterical

[Tom4784]

Half these cowardly men have probably fled for fear of death, leaving thier wives and kids to be raped and killed.. .such brave honourable men...**** off home.

A derogatory comment based on nothing but prejudice tbh.

You know it's bad when people are starting to demonise immigrants who are fleeing for their lives....

[Nicky91]

And on just about every SD thread, Dezzy for a long time now - YOU are the main culprit for REACHING and PREACHING and misrepresenting and spinning false facts to suit your agendas.

And THAT is a FACT.

not again, please don't

[chuff me dizzy]

A derogatory comment based on nothing but prejudice tbh.

You know it's bad when people are starting to demonise immigrants who are fleeing for their lives....

Do you have a spare bed will you offer it to them, pay for private health care, feed,clothe and keep them ?

[Twosugars]

no prizes for predicting this thread is not long for this world

[Kizzy]

And on just about every SD thread, Dezzy for a long time now - YOU are the main culprit for REACHING and PREACHING and misrepresenting and spinning false facts to suit your agendas.

And THAT is a FACT.

I think you'll find that on the topic of religion across serious debates over the last year there has been a clear agenda shown from yourself and another member.

Look back across the threads and that will be shown to be a fact.

[Crimson Dynamo]

And why are they so desperate they give everything they have and risk their lives again?...

They are not they are lied to by traffickers about a land of milk and honey and not told of any danger

these people dont subscribe to ABTA you know and they are not on TripAdvisor

[Niamh.]

Do you have a spare bed will you offer it to them, pay for private health care, feed,clothe and keep them ?

So unless Dezzy is willing to offer accommodation to immigrants he must talk about them like they're not even human beings? I don't see your logic here at all Chuff

[Twosugars]

Do you have a spare bed will you offer it to them, pay for private health care, feed,clothe and keep them ?

there is a subtle difference between discussing the issue calmly and constructively and calling immigrants rapists

[Tom4784]

And on just about every SD thread, Dezzy for a long time now - YOU are the main culprit for REACHING and PREACHING and misrepresenting and spinning false facts to suit your agendas.

And THAT is a FACT.

Based on what?

I've always backed up what I've said with logic or facts. You're just doing what you are accusing me of doing and conveniently forgetting what I've said so you can overwrite it with your own fiction.

[Crimson Dynamo]

can people who are not agreeing with the article discuss the article and not people who agree with the sentiment ?

lets keep to the debate

[Tom4784]

Do you have a spare bed will you offer it to them, pay for private health care, feed,clothe and keep them ?

That makes no kind of sense and it's just another example of the opinion suppression that is running rampant in SD.

You are dehumanising people and if you were in their position, you'd be one of the first to seek asylum in a safe country without a hint of self awareness. These are people, not rats although the way you go on about them, you'd think they were. It's worrying that you have such a blatant disregard and lack of empathy for others, it truly is.

[user104658]

Do you have a spare bed will you offer it to them, pay for private health care, feed,clothe and keep them ?

Another oft-relied on piece of extremist nonsense; "If you don't want immigrants IN YOUR BED then you shouldn't want them in your country :fist: ".

can people who are not agreeing with the article discuss the article and not people who agree with the sentiment ?

lets keep to the debate

That is the article / debate, as I'm sure you're well aware :nono:.

[Twosugars]

the funny thing is I'd imagine everybody is against mass migration, but it's the tone in which it is discussed that is sometimes so shocking that it simply cannot be tolerated

[kirklancaster]

Based on what?

I've always backed up what I've said with logic or facts. You're just doing what you are accusing me of doing and conveniently forgetting what I've said so you can overwrite it with your own fiction.

Yeah - like the hysterical 'Killer Gets Death Row Because He's Gay' thread and others which I cannot be bothered to list.

[Beso]

A derogatory comment based on nothing but prejudice tbh.

You know it's bad when people are starting to demonise immigrants who are fleeing for their lives....

Just because the goverments or media dont or wont address the glaringly obvious fact about missing women and kids it doesnt mean i will.


So all i can go by is the testements from women and kids who are living in these areas that people are fleeing...lots are describing rape, torture and mutilation.....so for me a coward would leave their family behind to face this...hence they should **** off home and help, instead of running away...

[Tom4784]

Yeah - like the hysterical 'Killer Gets Death Row Because He's Gay' thread and others which I cannot be bothered to list.

Again, selective memory.

I just wanted it to be investigated and it was. I never said that it was true, just that it was an outrage if it was (I was trying to make people understand WHY it would be an outrage if it was true) and that I wanted the truth to come to light. Which it did.

I think you've just shown that, like so many others in that thread, you completely missed the point in your quest to score points.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Another oft-relied on piece of extremist nonsense; "If you don't want immigrants IN YOUR BED then you shouldn't want them in your country :fist: ".



That is the article / debate, as I'm sure you're well aware :nono:.

dont you start TS you started the whole debacle with a post full of made up supposition



___________________________________________

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

(says you but who are are you actually talking about? - all you was lump one side of the argument into one and then slag off that side for doing the same thing)



You don't have to be vicious about it.

(Again who is, who are you actually talking about and how does it relate to the article?)


The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary.

(again, nothing about the article and no mention where this hails from)


No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

(you have no idea at all if that would be true and it would be impossible to try and attempt to equte)




We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".


Once again you are not addressing the article but some sort of fictitious UKIP fringe meeting in your head



One big strawman after another TS. Poor show

[Tom4784]

Just because the goverments or media dont or wont address the glaringly obvious fact about missing women and kids it doesnt mean i will.


So all i can go by is the testements from women and kids who are living in these areas that people are fleeing...lots are describing rape, torture and mutilation.....so for me a coward would leave their family behind to face this...hence they should **** off home and help, instead of running away...

Misleading pictures and opinion pieces rarely reflect the truth of the matter. It's just meant to bait people with horrific confirmation bias to read the article.

[Kizzy]

They are not they are lied to by traffickers about a land of milk and honey and not told of any danger

these people dont subscribe to ABTA you know and they are not on TripAdvisor

ok

[chuff me dizzy]

So unless Dezzy is willing to offer accommodation to immigrants he must talk about them like they're not even human beings? I don't see your logic here at all Chuff

IMO the people who spout "Fill the country up with them " are the ones less likely to keep one so they are not a burden on the taxpayer ,or dole wallers who dont pay the tax used to prop up the NHS that is struggling

[Beso]

Misleading pictures and opinion pieces rarely reflect the truth of the matter. It's just meant to bait people with horrific confirmation bias to read the article.

Why do you always resort back to the dead child on the beach?

[chuff me dizzy]

That makes no kind of sense and it's just another example of the opinion suppression that is running rampant in SD.

You are dehumanising people and if you were in their position, you'd be one of the first to seek asylum in a safe country without a hint of self awareness. These are people, not rats although the way you go on about them, you'd think they were. It's worrying that you have such a blatant disregard and lack of empathy for others, it truly is.

You dodged my question

[user104658]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

(says you but who are are you actually talking about? - all you was lump one side of the argument into one and then slag off that side for doing the same thing)

Whoever decided to headline the article "Liberals Have Lost The Argument", which you then used as your thread title. For liberals to have "lost the argument", it must then be being assumed that the "liberal argument" is that "free-for-all immigration is OK". Which is a fundamental misunderstanding. Clearer?



You don't have to be vicious about it.

(Again who is, who are you actually talking about and how does it relate to the article?)

Plenty of people on this thread. Even more people on this forum since the beginning of the "migrant crisis" (the viciousness on this thread is not surprising or unexpected, put it that way).


The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary.

(again, nothing about the article and no mention where this hails from)

See above. But also the thinly-veiled use of "liberals" as a slur in the article. The author may as well have written "libtards".


No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

(you have no idea at all if that would be true and it would be impossible to try and attempt to equte)

If someone's life was at immediate risk (whether directly or indirectly through extreme poverty) in the UK and they WOULDN'T try to make it to another country, then that person is an idiot. Maybe I'm overestimating people by thinking they would? Maybe they really would just sit here in the dust saying "Well they don't want too many migrants so guess I'll just die.".

Though I apologise if I've overestimated people's intelligence and survival instinct on that one :think:.




We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".


Once again you are not addressing the article but some sort of fictitious UKIP fringe meeting in your head

Again, we've all been on here for years and I'm going to consider any attempt to suggest that the above doesn't happen frequently on here - including in this thread where immigrants have been dehumanised to the point of being universally branded as rapists - to be a bare-faced lie.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Again, we've all been on here for years and I'm going to consider any attempt to suggest that the above doesn't happen frequently on here - including in this thread where immigrants have been dehumanised to the point of being universally branded as rapists - to be a bare-faced lie.[/QUOTE]

then address individual members and dont try and tar everyone with the same brush because it comes across as VS

and this article hangs that position out to dry rather well

[user104658]

IMO the people who spout "Fill the country up with them " are the ones less likely to keep one so they are not a burden on the taxpayer ,or dole wallers who dont pay the tax used to prop up the NHS that is struggling

Literally no one thinks this or has said this. No one. Quick LT - tell Chuff off for this ridiculous strawman!

...hmm?

...You only tell people off if they disagree with your general stance?

:omgno: That's not very balanced is it :nono:.

Again, we've all been on here for years and I'm going to consider any attempt to suggest that the above doesn't happen frequently on here - including in this thread where immigrants have been dehumanised to the point of being universally branded as rapists - to be a bare-faced lie.

then address individual members and dont try and tar everyone with the same brush because it comes across as VS

and this article hangs that position out to dry rather well[/QUOTE]

The article blanket-terms an entire unspecified group as "Liberals!" and then goes on to explain how "they" (all of them, I assume) have "got it wrong". :facepalm:

#U Started It

[user104658]

what if it's not about crews or cliques? but just saying what's is right and wrong

I see you timidly posted somewhere that you'd like for the UK to remain the member of the EU. I praised your independence, but I wonder if it's gone unnoticed by your "crew"

And he loves Wee Nic as much as the next Scotsman but he keeps in on the down-low :fist:

[Niamh.]

IMO the people who spout "Fill the country up with them " are the ones less likely to keep one so they are not a burden on the taxpayer ,or dole wallers who dont pay the tax used to prop up the NHS that is struggling

Ok but Dezzy has never said anything like you're suggesting though?

[Twosugars]

And he loves Wee Nic as much as the next Scotsman but he keeps in on the down-low :fist:
Doesn't he realize many in England hate her guts because they're jealous they don't have a leader like her? That plus the fact she stands up for Scotland?
English arrogance and pettiness exposed.

[Niamh.]

I'm going to delete some posts in here, lets drop the Dezzy discussion now please

[Nicky91]

sure Niamh

[bots]

Anyway, i don't have a problem with genuine refugees or immigrants, i'm just not keen on the illegal variety.

[Tom4784]

IMO the people who spout "Fill the country up with them " are the ones less likely to keep one so they are not a burden on the taxpayer ,or dole wallers who dont pay the tax used to prop up the NHS that is struggling

Except nobody is actually saying that, least of all me. You've taken a statement that doesn't apply to anyone and you've tried to put it on views you disagree with in order to discredit them without making the effort to form a valid argument.

Your extreme rhetoric when it comes to people opening their homes or shutting up about immigration makes no sense either.

I think you need read what people have actually wrote, not disregard it and replace it with what you wanted them to have written.

[arista]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".




Its much more simple
Get in line.
Stop jumping the line
Entering on Smugglers Illegal money making boats.
Yes they pay the criminals its what some mother's tell them.

[Brillopad]

A derogatory comment based on nothing but prejudice tbh.

You know it's bad when people are starting to demonise immigrants who are fleeing for their lives....

Most aren’t though are they - more dramatics. Most are economic migrants NOT ‘refugees fleeing for their lives’. Can you not distinguish between the two! In fact the former are responsible for the latter getting such a negative welcome, by abusing the refugee crisis to their own ends.

It is also fact that parts of Germany and Sweden, for example, occupied by immigrants are pretty much no-go areas now even for the police. The gratitude hey!

[Kizzy]

Most aren’t though are they - more dramatics. Most are economic migrants NOT ‘refugees fleeing for their lives’. Can you not distinguish between the two! In fact the former are responsible for the latter getting such a negative welcome, by abusing the refugee crisis to their own ends.

It is also fact that parts of Germany and Sweden, for example, occupied by immigrants are pretty much no-go areas now even for the police. The gratitude hey!

How do you know this?...

Which parts?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I guess at least no one yet has denied that the article is spot on

that, at least, is progress

[user104658]

I guess at least no one yet has denied that the article is spot on

that, at least, is progressNo one on here, "Liberal" or otherwise, has (ever) said that open-door immigration is a good idea. That's probably why.

[Brillopad]

No one on here, "Liberal" or otherwise, has (ever) said that open-door immigration is a good idea. That's probably why.

If they vote for Corbyn they effectively do coz that is what we’ll get...

[Brillopad]

How do you know this?...

Which parts?

Most are not coming from war-torn countries such as Syria for a start. Are you seriously trying to say you think all or the majority are!

[chuff me dizzy]

If they vote for Corbyn they effectively do coz that is what we’ll get...

Yes it is,God forbid he ever gets into Downing Street

[user104658]

If they vote for Corbyn they effectively do coz that is what we’ll get...It isn't though. Labour have a different immigration policy to the Conservatives but they certainly don't have an "open door" policy... That's just sensationalist nonsense.

[smudgie]

Speed up the return home for economic migrants.
Speed up the welcome for genuine refugees.

How hard can it be to sort out:shrug:

[Kizzy]

Most are not coming from war-torn countries such as Syria for a start. Are you seriously trying to say you think all or the majority are!

Where are they from then?... You keep making these statements, where are you getting your information from?

[Kizzy]

If they vote for Corbyn they effectively do coz that is what we’ll get...

You are sounding more and more like a daily Mail headline generator... Give it a rest! :laugh:

[Brillopad]

Where are they from then?... You keep making these statements, where are you getting your information from?

https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/

Just one example. You can look for the rest - but you won’t because you don’t want to acknowledge the problems. These people have ruined a prosperous and peaceful country.

[Kizzy]

https://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-bombings-grenade-attacks-violent-reality-undoing-peaceful-self-image-law-and-order/

Just one example. You can look for the rest - but you won’t because you don’t want to acknowledge the problems. These people have ruined a prosperous and peaceful country.

How about you listen to the Swedes instead of some opinion piece vlog?

https://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/

[Brillopad]

How about you listen to the Swedes instead of some opinion piece vlog?

https://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/

Oh be quiet I have seen several articles previously on the issues in Sweden with migrants. I also saw some videos, one which was shown on here, where migrants were very aggressive and committed unprovoked attacks against some journalists/film makers and the ambulance staff needed a police escort. If you don’t want to believe you won’t.

Sorry Kizzy but you are either being deliberately provocative or you are living in your own little utopia where migrants are all innocent victims feeling persecution. If you say so! Meanwhile ...

By the way because rape isn’t considered rape in their own countries it is not justification. Women shouldn’t have to be raped because men from such cultures don’t recognise force as rape. You do know that’s because they don’t believe women have any rights ! Seriously!

[Kizzy]

Oh be quiet I have seen several articles previously on the issues in Sweden with migrants. I also saw some videos, one which was shown on here, where migrants were very aggressive and committed unprovoked attacks against some journalists/film makers and the ambulance staff needed a police escort. If you don’t want to believe you won’t.

Sorry Kizzy but you are either being deliberately provocative or you are living in your own little utopia where migrants are all innocent victims feeling persecution. If you say so! Meanwhile ...

By the way because rape isn’t considered rape in their own countries it is not justification. Women shouldn’t have to be raped because men from such cultures don’t recognise force as rape. You do know that’s because they don’t believe women have any rights ! Seriously!

Look at you having a fit because the Swedes won't corroborate what you think is happening in their country :/

[Crimson Dynamo]

Look at you having a fit because the Swedes won't corroborate what you think is happening in their country :/

i remember when you had a go a trump when he called out Sweden and then this happened...

Riots erupt in Sweden’s capital just days after Trump comments

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2fnews%2fworldviews%2fwp%2f2017%2f02 %2f21%2friots-erupt-in-swedens-capital-just-days-after-trump-comments%2f%3f&utm_term=.f4adf5cc1b58

http://www.youthpolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/media_reporting_stockholm_riots_large.jpg

[Kizzy]

Yes there was an incident... there have been incidents here.
What does it prove?

I'm still awaiting an answer to how brillo knows the majority of migrants are economic.

[chuff me dizzy]

IF they were fleeing for their lives ,they would stay in the 1st safe country they land in, instead of laying on lorry axels to get to the land of milk, honey and giros .... The UK

[Brillopad]

Look at you having a fit because the Swedes won't corroborate what you think is happening in their country :/

I believe my own ears and eyes. You are welcome to believe the Swedish government who do have a reason to save face. Like Merkel they made the wrong decision taking so many migrants and they are embarassed about admitting it.

For someone who generally seems to be anti-establishment your willingness to believe this particular government when it suits is highly amusing.

[Kizzy]

IF they were fleeing for their lives ,they would stay in the 1st safe country they land in, instead of laying on lorry axels to get to the land of milk, honey and giros .... The UK

Then why are we discussing Sweden? :/

[chuff me dizzy]

Oh be quiet I have seen several articles previously on the issues in Sweden with migrants. I also saw some videos, one which was shown on here, where migrants were very aggressive and committed unprovoked attacks against some journalists/film makers and the ambulance staff needed a police escort. If you don’t want to believe you won’t.

Sorry Kizzy but you are either being deliberately provocative or you are living in your own little utopia where migrants are all innocent victims feeling persecution. If you say so! Meanwhile ...

By the way because rape isn’t considered rape in their own countries it is not justification. Women shouldn’t have to be raped because men from such cultures don’t recognise force as rape. You do know that’s because they don’t believe women have any rights ! Seriously!

:clap1:

[Brillopad]

IF they were fleeing for their lives ,they would stay in the 1st safe country they land in, instead of laying on lorry axels to get to the land of milk, honey and giros .... The UK

Exactly Chuff. Funny how all the countries they aim for are known to provide many freebies such as benefits and healthcare. Simple coincidence we are supposed to believe. :hee:

[Kizzy]

I believe my own ears and eyes. You are welcome to believe the Swedish government who do have a reason to save face. Like Merkel they made the wrong decision taking so many migrants and they are embarassed about admitting it.

For someone who generally seems to be anti-establishment your willingness to believe this particular government when it suits is highly amusing.

You've seen nothing with your own ears and eyes...

I'm anti this government is all brillo, I could turn that back on you if our govt is so fantastic and everything they do and say gospel why would you have such a hard time believing the Swedish government?

There statement was a full and frank explanation of the current issues they face... Why is that not acceptable for you? :/

[kirklancaster]

I think you'll find that on the topic of religion across serious debates over the last year there has been a clear agenda shown from yourself and another member.

Look back across the threads and that will be shown to be a fact.

:sleep: I wasn't even on here for most of the past year. So check your facts before keep posting tripe.

[chuff me dizzy]

Exactly Chuff. Funny how all the countries they aim for are known to provide many freebies such as benefits and healthcare. Simple coincidence we are supposed to believe. :hee:

They risk getting killed to come here for one thing only and its not their safety its for handouts .. Parasites !

[Kizzy]

:sleep: I wasn't even on here for most of the past year. So check your facts before keep posting tripe.

Then it shows the disproportionate amount even clearer.

[kirklancaster]

Then it shows the disproportionate amount even clearer.

:laugh: Give it a rest, Kizzy. It is oh so tedious.

[kirklancaster]

Yes it is,God forbid he ever gets into Downing Street

:laugh: There is more chance of a wooden rocking horse winning The Cheltenham Gold Cup with 5 tonnes of coal on its back.

[Kizzy]

:laugh: Give it a rest, Kizzy. It is oh so tedious.

Glass houses... don't accuse people of having agendas if you don't want yours exposed.

here 'Liberals' have been said to have lost the argument in relation to the 'migrant crisis'

So who's won it?... neoliberals?... ukippers?... the unPC brigade?

[Brillopad]

Glass houses... don't accuse people of having agendas if you don't want yours exposed.

here 'Liberals' have been said to have lost the argument in relation to the 'migrant crisis'

So who's won it?... neoliberals?... ukippers?... the unPC brigade?

An un-PC win is always a feet on the ground practical one - so sounds good to me. The less airy fairy head in the clouds nonsence dictating our actions the better.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Glass houses... don't accuse people of having agendas if you don't want yours exposed.

here 'Liberals' have been said to have lost the argument in relation to the 'migrant crisis'

So who's won it?... neoliberals?... ukippers?... the unPC brigade?

All you need to remember is that your pov was incorrect, again

[Nicky91]

They risk getting killed to come here for one thing only and its not their safety its for handouts .. Parasites !

they were already at risk of getting killed in their own country, with all the conflicts


so yeah i can understand them why they want to escape using these boats


but indeed among them are rapists and thieves who cause trouble in our countries


i guess this is more a last resort for them to flee from their troubles

[Brillopad]

they were already at risk of getting killed in their own country, with all the conflicts


so yeah i can understand them why they want to escape using these boats


but indeed among them are rapists and thieves who cause trouble in our countries


i guess this is more a last resort for them to flee from their troubles

And with all these undocumented migrants coming here we are more at risk of getting killed in our own country. :shrug: