[LeatherTrumpet]

It’s been proven a myth that you can have strong borders without willing the means

It is tough leading a shaky coalition government, following poor election results, and with your personal support dwindling.
Forced by your own ministers into compromises you do not believe in,
and reduced to proposing policies that will be rejected by other EU member states, it can be embarrassing.

Yet Angela Merkel fights on as Germany’s Chancellor.

Europe’s migration crisis – sparked by Merkel’s government three years ago – has quickened the populist advance across the continent.
The Hungarian government is busy vilifying immigrants and minorities.
The Italian Prime Minister talks about drawing up lists of Romany gypsies.
For the first time since the Second World War, Nazis sit in Germany’s Reichstag.
And even in the great liberal victory won by Emmanuel Macron, one third of the electorate voted for the French National Front.

Last week, more than 500 migrants arrived in Greece, nearly 900 reached Italy, and almost 1,200 arrived in Spain.
And the authorities must now house, educate and integrate the many people who reached Europe in the last three years.
By 2020 the German government will have spent an estimated £74 billion dealing with the domestic costs of the crisis.

To maintain social cohesion, you need to control immigration.
To control immigration, you need strong borders.
And to have strong borders, you need to be prepared to adopt tough policies.

What good does encouraging migrants to undertake dangerous boat journeys do?

The UN says about 10,000 people have died or gone missing crossing the Mediterranean since 2016.

What about putting people’s lives into the hands of criminal gangs? EU data says many migrants have fled Syria,
but others come from countries including Albania, Eritrea, Nigeria, Pakistan and Vietnam.
Many are economic migrants who have reached Europe aided by people traffickers.

And why should we continue an asylum model that favours the strong over the weak, the young over the old, and men over women?
Three quarters of asylum seekers in Britain are men and the majority are in their early twenties. Too often, with today’s system,
the vulnerable get left behind.


If the migration crisis taught us anything, it is that virtue signaling is not a policy: the only policy with virtue is one that works.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-europe-needs/


Thoughts?

[Nicky91]

don't let them in, no country should let them in they only cause trouble in our countries, which we already got enough even without them

[Kazanne]

Where are the women and children ?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Where are the women and children ?

Yes not on
the packed boat.

[LeatherTrumpet]

"Three quarters of asylum seekers in Britain are men and the majority are in their early twenties."

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes not on
the packed boat.

so they are sexist refugees, sending the men first


hmmm that was way different back in the time with Titanic, it was women and children first back then

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

It’s been proven a myth that you can have strong borders without willing the means

It is tough leading a shaky coalition government, following poor election results, and with your personal support dwindling.
Forced by your own ministers into compromises you do not believe in,
and reduced to proposing policies that will be rejected by other EU member states, it can be embarrassing.

Yet Angela Merkel fights on as Germany’s Chancellor.

Europe’s migration crisis – sparked by Merkel’s government three years ago – has quickened the populist advance across the continent.
The Hungarian government is busy vilifying immigrants and minorities.
The Italian Prime Minister talks about drawing up lists of Romany gypsies.
For the first time since the Second World War, Nazis sit in Germany’s Reichstag.
And even in the great liberal victory won by Emmanuel Macron, one third of the electorate voted for the French National Front.

Last week, more than 500 migrants arrived in Greece, nearly 900 reached Italy, and almost 1,200 arrived in Spain.
And the authorities must now house, educate and integrate the many people who reached Europe in the last three years.
By 2020 the German government will have spent an estimated £74 billion dealing with the domestic costs of the crisis.

To maintain social cohesion, you need to control immigration.
To control immigration, you need strong borders.
And to have strong borders, you need to be prepared to adopt tough policies.

What good does encouraging migrants to undertake dangerous boat journeys do?

The UN says about 10,000 people have died or gone missing crossing the Mediterranean since 2016.

What about putting people’s lives into the hands of criminal gangs? EU data says many migrants have fled Syria,
but others come from countries including Albania, Eritrea, Nigeria, Pakistan and Vietnam.
Many are economic migrants who have reached Europe aided by people traffickers.

And why should we continue an asylum model that favours the strong over the weak, the young over the old, and men over women?
Three quarters of asylum seekers in Britain are men and the majority are in their early twenties. Too often, with today’s system,
the vulnerable get left behind.


If the migration crisis taught us anything, it is that virtue signaling is not a policy: the only policy with virtue is one that works.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-europe-needs/


Thoughts?

Something many of us understood. Others get bogged down with ideology and seemingly being fair with little thought to the long term consequences on everyone.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Where are the women and children ?

Where indeed, Kaz - Haven't we realists been pointing this farce out for what it is for years on here?

[Nicky91]

about these people i don't give a damn


but the innocent women and children, well they do deserve to get better lives in another country


so i'm not really against the refugees, but only the people who are innocent in all that chaos in their countries, especially women and their children should get better lives and the children deserve proper education

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Where indeed, Kaz - Haven't we realists been pointing this farce out for what it is for years on here?

Sure have Kirk !!

[Toy Soldier]

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".

Very well put TS. I've said it a thousand times in these discussions, it's very easy for us all to sit back and judge these people while we're lucky enough to be born on this side of the world but the inability to put yourself in their shoes and see them as real people, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers etc is so dehumanising and upsetting.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Very well put TS. I've said it a thousand times in these discussions, it's very easy for us all to sit back and judge these people while we're lucky enough to be born on this side of the world but the inability to put yourself in their shoes and see them as real people, fathers, sons, daughters, mothers etc is so dehumanising and upsetting.

I dont think anyone is politically. But when making big decisions from the top you have to be logical and sensible. No one is judging the economic migrants in that way but to pretend they are war ravaged desperates is naive and dangerous.

We already to foreign aid to help counties at source but we dont say "hey dont like your country well come here and live and we will look after you for free."

no

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I dont think anyone is politically. But when making big decisions from the top you have to be logical and sensible. No one is judging the economic migrants in that way but to pretend they are war ravaged desperates is naive and dangerous.

We already to foreign aid to help counties at source but we dont say "hey dont like your country well come here and live and we will look after you for free."

no

I know that and I understand we can't help everyone but I also agree with TS that alot of "anti immigrants people" are unnecessarily scathing and unsympathetic aswell

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I know that and I understand we can't help everyone but I also agree with TS that alot of "anti immigrants people" are unnecessarily scathing and unsympathetic aswell

Well that is just people. Personally I feel nothing for them or their plight, but you obviously do - just differences in people. But politically you cant afford to be emotional so much.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Well that is just people. Personally I feel nothing for them or their plight, but you obviously do - just differences in people. But politically you cant afford to be emotional so much.

I think Politics without some emotion would be awful tbh

[Cherie]

Is that Black Dagger in the specs in the middle second row from the back trafficking

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".

Well yes more than likely, but then when people echo the same sentiment in that they want their kids to go to local schools, they want services that they pay for to be workable and not stretched beyond breaking point, they want to travel to work in relative comfort not be squished nose to nose with fellow travellers, elderly people want to live in an area they recognise and that they feel comfortable in and not alien, in other words they want to maintain a decent quality of life, the racist card is pulled out of the hat, this empathy only seems to work one way for some

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I know that and I understand we can't help everyone but I also agree with TS that alot of "anti immigrants people" are unnecessarily scathing and unsympathetic aswell

Isn’t that part of what has been said though that people get so concerned and frustrated at the sheer levels and the impact that is likely to have on everyone else that it hardens otherwise caring hearts.

People such as Corbyn and Abbott want to let everyone in and there is evidence to suggest that will not be a positive situation for the rest of us. It is mainly strong young men coming to Europe and we have already seen some negatives effects of that.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Isn’t that part of what has been said though that people get so concerned and frustrated at the sheer levels and the impact that is likely to have on everyone else that it harden otherwise caring hearts.

People such as Corbyn and Abbott want to let everyone in and there is evidence to suggest that will not be a positive situation for the rest of us. It is mainly strong young men coming to Europe and we have already seen some negatives effects of that.

i agree, rapists and thieves are among them


but also they aren't the ones who need to get away from those horrible countries, they can easily give up their place for the women and children who only suffer in those countries


so i'm only wanting to allow refugees in if it is the ones who deserve to get away from all the trouble in their own countries

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nicky91

about these people i don't give a damn


but the innocent women and children, well they do deserve to get better lives in another country


so i'm not really against the refugees, but only the people who are innocent in all that chaos in their countries, especially women and their children should get better lives and the children deserve proper education

The Telegraph could never accuse you of virtue signalling then Nicky.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Isn’t that part of what has been said though that people get so concerned and frustrated at the sheer levels and the impact that is likely to have on everyone else that it hardens otherwise caring hearts.

People such as Corbyn and Abbott want to let everyone in and there is evidence to suggest that will not be a positive situation for the rest of us. It is mainly strong young men coming to Europe and we have already seen some negatives effects of that.

We have seen the effects of children coming over, they die.

Then the question is asked ' why did they send them? They must have known they would die!'

What is really meant is ... nobody come, we don't want you. Whatever the issue is in your country we don't care.

[Nicky91]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The Telegraph could never accuse you of virtue signalling then Nicky.

i'm sorry but i just stand up for the women and children in those awful countries

[Twosugars]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, really, that anyone who is against mistreatment if human beings "wants open borders and to let anyone in!!!"

No.

We shouldn't have open borders, it's impossible to accept all asylum seekers let alone other immigrants. That's true. Here's the thing though;

You don't have to be vicious about it.

The jeering, spitefulness and hatred directed at migrants themselves is completely unnecessary. No it's not possible for the world to move to Europe and solutions need to be found... But if it was any of us in one of these struggling countries, we would be doing the exact same thing.

We don't have to abandon empathy and compassion in order to control our borders. People can be turned away considerately without resorting to bleating "nyyyeeeerrrrrr dirty get back to yer own country!!".

well said

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

We have seen the effects of children coming over, they die.

Then the question is asked ' why did they send them? They must have known they would die!'

What is really meant is ... nobody come, we don't want you. Whatever the issue is in your country we don't care.

Yes because of people traffickers and their greed for money

nothing to do with Europe