baby dies when his mom 'FORGOT' him !!!

[Kazanne]

How does this even happen,this poor baby,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/three-month-old-baby-boy-dies-when-his-mother-forgets-he-is-in-the-car-and-leaves-him-in-scorching-heat-in-indiana/ar-BBL9eej?ocid=spartandhp

[Scarlett.]

It happens more often than you think, parents get into a routine, something disrupts the routine and then this happens.

[Tom4784]

It happens through a tragic series of circumstances. It's sadly a common story, people who are tired or are adjusting to a shift in their family often make mistakes.

I hope the mother doesn't face charges for it, it was an unfortunate mistake that she'll regret forever.

[Tony Montana]

It happens more often than you think, parents get into a routine, something disrupts the routine and then this happens.

You're Not Wrong!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4544124/Baby-dies-father-forgot-left-car.html

[Vanessa]

How can you forget that you have a child? Poor baby :bawling: But I'm sure the mother didn't do it on purpose. This is so sad and tragic :sad:

[Josy]

Devastating story :/It happens more often than you think, parents get into a routine, something disrupts the routine and then this happens.Then those are terrible parents.

If being out of routine causes you to neglect your child then the child is not your number one priority.

[Kazanne]

Well I have kids and I assure you I have never forgot I had them,to leave him for a whole day !!! nah,not buying that, she may not have meant to harm him but something isn't right.

[Beso]

Disgrace....i forgot...

Bull****.

[kirklancaster]

This 'act' is absolutely enraging and the cries of mitigation from some even more so.

NO ONE forgets about a tiny 3 months old baby for an ENTIRE day even if it is left in another room at home, let alone in a car on its own on a scorching hot Summer's day and ESPECIALLY not its ****ing mother.

My grandchildren come into my thoughts regularly throughout the day and I am a man and not their mother.

The full horror of this innocent tiny baby's death in that stifling heat inside that car is punctuated by the 'mothers' reaction upon coming back to the car and opening the door:

"She came out to the car, and she says she opened the car door and was like, "what is that smell" and she noticed that Aiden was still in the back seat.'.

****ing sickening and like others on here, I do not buy the "I forgot" Bullshot at all.

I wish that I had not read this.

[Kazanne]

This 'act' is absolutely enraging and the cries of mitigation from some even more so.

NO ONE forgets about a tiny 3 months old baby for an ENTIRE day even if it is left in another room at home, let alone in a car on its own on a scorching hot Summer's day and ESPECIALLY not its ****ing mother.

My grandchildren come into my thoughts regularly throughout the day and I am a man and not their mother.

The full horror of this innocent tiny baby's death in that stifling heat inside that car is punctuated by the 'mothers' reaction upon coming back to the car and opening the door:

"She came out to the car, and she says she opened the car door and was like, "what is that smell" and she noticed that Aiden was still in the back seat.'.

****ing sickening and like others on here, I do not buy the "I forgot" Bullshot at all.

I wish that I had not read this.

Same Kirk,when mine go their friends or grandparents we ring up several times a day to check they are being good and are ok.

[smudgie]

Tragic.
What an awful death for that baby, and what terrible guilt his mother will carry for the rest of her life.
:sad:

[Livia]

I'm surprised people are so understanding. She left her child in a boiling car to die a slow and horrible death because something more important was on her mind.

She should volunteer herself for sterilisation.

[Cherie]

I don’t think it can be dismissed as oh dear she just forgot, cases like this need investigating, if this was a dog left in a car to die an excruciating death, we would want questions asked and the person charged with neglect, these cases are so common it’s not difficult for a parent to use it as a way to murder their child

[user104658]

This 'act' is absolutely enraging and the cries of mitigation from some even more so.

NO ONE forgets about a tiny 3 months old baby for an ENTIRE day even if it is left in another room at home, let alone in a car on its own on a scorching hot Summer's day and ESPECIALLY not its ****ing mother.

My grandchildren come into my thoughts regularly throughout the day and I am a man and not their mother.

The full horror of this innocent tiny baby's death in that stifling heat inside that car is punctuated by the 'mothers' reaction upon coming back to the car and opening the door:

"She came out to the car, and she says she opened the car door and was like, "what is that smell" and she noticed that Aiden was still in the back seat.'.

****ing sickening and like others on here, I do not buy the "I forgot" Bullshot at all.

I wish that I had not read this.


It is horrendous Kirk, but it doesn't come from "not thinking about the kid" it comes from a combination of routine, exhaustion, and believing that the child has been dropped off with a carer / at daycare... esentially carrying out a routine but "missing a step" due to a lapse in concentration, misremembering that step in the routine from previous days. Human cognition is based largely on patterns, routines and "filling in the gaps"... that's just how our brains work.

The problem of course is that in the modern world, most "human routine" involves mindless slog at work and not family life, even when we have young children, which is utterly arse-backwards but it is what it is.

As for not believing it... well... it doesn't really matter if you (or any other layperson) believes it or not; it is a scientifically verified psychological phenomenon. It's like saying you don't believe that the world is spherical because you don't understand the concept of gravity.

[user104658]

She left her child in a boiling car to die a slow and horrible death because something more important was on her mind.

Yes. Work, work, work, bills and money. Because the world we live in slaps us across the face, every single day from about 5 years old, with the idea that work and money are THE most important things full stop. And if one even dares to have other priorities on their mind, there'll be some swift kick up the arse or other bellowing at them to "get back to work".

It's a mess. The whole situation is horrific, but blaming a new parent for the accidental death of their child - something which will haunt their every moment for the rest of their life anyway - is also pretty ****ing sick.

[Marsh.]

Disgrace....i forgot...

Bull****.

How is it bull?

Are you suggesting she didn't forget?

In which case why would she leave the child?

[AnnieK]

When I was born my mum already had my brother who was 2 and never slept more than 2 hours a night. She then had me. When I was 3 weeks old, she left me outside a local shop in my pram (as was the norm then). She did ger shopping, dragging a belligerent 2 year old with her, paid and walked home. Only when one of the neighbours stopped to ask where the baby was did she realise she had walked out of the shop, past the pram and home. Does that make her a bad mother?? No, it made her a woman struggling on virtually no sleep in years who made a mistake. She was horribly guilt ridden for years about it (although later probably wished she never went back for me). I do not disagree that this needs investigating to ensure there is no malice or motive involved and child services need to ensure her other children are not at risk. The poor baby will have suffered terribly, the rest if the family will continue to suffer eternally and if the mother did it intentionally she needs to pay the price. However, if it really was a case that she forgot about him, the price she will pay for that would hurt far more than any prison sentence ever could

[Beso]

How is it bull?

Are you suggesting she didn't forget?

In which case why would she leave the child?

Im guessing her hubby works so couldnt have the kid and her work doesnt allow her to bring her kid in...so she left it in the car knowingly....but unaware of the danger.

[Kazanne]

Even if your child is dropped off at a nursey or a carer,you ring to check they are ok,I am shocked people can be so nonchalant about it, what about feeding him and changing him he was left ALL day.

[AnnieK]

Even if your child is dropped off at a nursey or a carer,you ring to check they are ok,I am shocked people can be so nonchalant about it, what about feeding him and changing him he was left ALL day.

But if (and it is an if) she genuinely forgot she hadn't dropped him off, she would have thought he was being fed and changed at daycare.

Its not nonchalance either, its understanding there may have been no malice and it was a genuine, tragic act.

[Denver]

I don't buy anyone who said they never forgot their kids even for 2 mins it's happens but doesn't make them an evil person

[Niamh.]

It is horrendous Kirk, but it doesn't come from "not thinking about the kid" it comes from a combination of routine, exhaustion, and believing that the child has been dropped off with a carer / at daycare... esentially carrying out a routine but "missing a step" due to a lapse in concentration, misremembering that step in the routine from previous days. Human cognition is based largely on patterns, routines and "filling in the gaps"... that's just how our brains work.

The problem of course is that in the modern world, most "human routine" involves mindless slog at work and not family life, even when we have young children, which is utterly arse-backwards but it is what it is.

As for not believing it... well... it doesn't really matter if you (or any other layperson) believes it or not; it is a scientifically verified psychological phenomenon. It's like saying you don't believe that the world is spherical because you don't understand the concept of gravity.Yeah agree with this. Poor baby though :( for everyone calling for the mothers head, don't worry I'm pretty sure she will never get over this

[Tom4784]

As ever, it's easy to judge, harder to try to understand.

This happens often and to good parents too. I think anyone who has kids should know how emotionally and physically draining it can be and how easy it can be to make a mistake like this, I've known parents to forget to pick up their children from school. At work recently there was a parent who literally left the store before realising she left her child behind. Parents make mistakes and accidents happen.

it's just unfortunate that the circumstances of this mistake proved deadly.

It seems quite sadistic to call for her head, punishment for the sake of punishment is pointless and she will likely carry this to her grave. No need to punish her when she's capable and already doing so herself.

[Livia]

Well anyone wishing to murder their child - and if a child is going to be murdered it's most likely to be by the parents, all they have to do is say they left the child in the car and forgot. Everyone's heart will break for them.

[Cherie]

Honestly you would think that a parent never killed their child ever! The baby was 3 months, so can't have been in nursery very long, the least you would do is ring up in your lunchbreak to see how the baby is doing, my sister and her hubby run a kennels and dogs can be left for the day, and people ring up to see how they are doing. It may have been a tragedy but it still needs to be investigated also it looks like she was estranged from the father so there may be a revenge element if he took up with someone else....

[Marsh.]

Im guessing her hubby works so couldnt have the kid and her work doesnt allow her to bring her kid in...so she left it in the car knowingly....but unaware of the danger.

"guessing"

Ok.

It also doesn't hold up as if she intentionally left the baby assuming they would be fine in the car then surely she'd have been out more regularly to feed and change the child as Kazanne said.

[Kazanne]

Honestly you would think that a parent never killed their child ever! The baby was 3 months, so can't have been in nursery very long, the least you would do is ring up in your lunchbreak to see how the baby is doing, my sister and her hubby run a kennels and dogs can be left for the day, and people ring up to see how they are doing. It may have been a tragedy but it still needs to be investigated also it looks like she was estranged from the father so there may be a revenge element if he took up with someone else....

This was my thinking ,she was his ex.

[Ashley.]

The most important responsibility as a parent is putting your child's needs above your own. Of course she didn't leave him in the car on purpose, but an innocent life was lost because she failed to be a parent that day. She'll receive the punishment of having to live with her actions for the rest of her life, and heaven forbid she has any more children.

[thesheriff443]

They say elephants never forget, it's clear humans do forget, I forgot about picking my daughter up from school do to concentrating so much on work.

When humans have to many things on their mind they make mistakes.

[thesheriff443]

The most important responsibility as a parent is putting your child's needs above your own. Of course she didn't leave him in the car on purpose, but an innocent life was lost because she failed to be a parent that day. She'll receive the punishment of having to live with her actions for the rest of her life, and heaven forbid she has any more children.

Heaven forbid she has any more children!, if a woman has an abortion do you then say the same thing.

It's a tragic accident, any parent that has lost a child knows another child can't replace the one they lost.

[user104658]

All I can say is, anyone who "doesn't believe in this" or thinks that "something like this could never happen to them"... You don't understand this element of human cognition or the potential effects of stress and distraction on memory. It could happen to anyone. Including you. If you're sure it couldn't, you are simply wrong, and most of the people this has happened to would have said exactly the same thing before it happened.

Also; it happens a LOT more than we generally hear about because it usually isn't fatal. The parent will spontaneously remember, or they'll notice just as they get out of the car / turn to get a bag etc from the back seat, or it'll be a short time away from the car, or a temperate day. Also several cases where other people have noticed and raised the alarm / smashed a window / called the police. In all of these cases the child isn't harmed, so we don't hear about it. For every horrible case like this that hits the news, there are a dozen others that have ended, thankfully, without a death.

So yeah... It's not uncommon, at all. To the extent that I personally think new cars should have safety features implemented to ensure that it can't happen. I think aftermarket solutions do exist already, but they should be "as standard" in my opinion, and a legal requirement like seat belts / carseats.

[Cherie]

All I can say is, anyone who "doesn't believe in this" or thinks that "something like this could never happen to them"... You don't understand this element of human cognition or the potential effects of stress and distraction on memory. It could happen to anyone. Including you. If you're sure it couldn't, you are simply wrong, and most of the people this has happened to would have said exactly the same thing before it happened.

Also; it happens a LOT more than we generally hear about because it usually isn't fatal. The parent will spontaneously remember, or they'll notice just as they get out of the car / turn to get a bag etc from the back seat, or it'll be a short time away from the car, or a temperate day. Also several cases where other people have noticed and raised the alarm / smashed a window / called the police. In all of these cases the child isn't harmed, so we don't hear about it. For every horrible case like this that hits the news, there are a dozen others that have ended, thankfully, without a death.

So yeah... It's not uncommon, at all. To the extent that I personally think new cars should have safety features implemented to ensure that it can't happen. I think aftermarket solutions do exist already, but they should be "as standard" in my opinion, and a legal requirement like seat belts / carseats.


Just because it can happen and does happen doesn’t mean it should just be put down to stress or distraction, cot deaths are investigated or indeed any unexplained fatality so as distressing as it is so should cases like this

[Ashley.]

Heaven forbid she has any more children!, if a woman has an abortion do you then say the same thing.

It's a tragic accident, any parent that has lost a child knows another child can't replace the one they lost.

I never said it wasn't an accident, in fact in my post I specifically said she didn't do it on purpose. But if a child you only had three months ago can slip your mind for an entire day, you're not ready for motherhood... in my opinion.

[Marsh.]

I never said it wasn't an accident, in fact in my post I specifically said she didn't do it on purpose. But if a child you only had three months ago can slip your mind for an entire day, you're not ready for motherhood... in my opinion.

But the baby itself didn't slip her mind, unless I've missed the part where she forgot giving birth.

She forgot the child hadn't been dropped off at his day care.

[JerseyWins]

Absolutely tragic... things slip people's minds but THAT? Poor baby RIP </3

The article says mom & ex-girlfriend... so they were already split / never married which sounds a bit sketchy to me that this would then happen. Or did he dump her ass after this and that's why it says ex? :fan:

Anyway I also feel extremely bad for the dad and even the mom a bit because what an awful regret to live with for the rest of your life. :bored:

[Beso]

"guessing"

Ok.

It also doesn't hold up as if she intentionally left the baby assuming they would be fine in the car then surely she'd have been out more regularly to feed and change the child as Kazanne said.

Maybe she forgot when she was supposed to go out:shrug:

[user104658]

Just because it can happen and does happen doesn’t mean it should just be put down to stress or distraction, cot deaths are investigated or indeed any unexplained fatality so as distressing as it is so should cases like thisI'm not saying the circumstances shouldn't be looked at but - as with cot death - it should be assumed that it was a tragic mistake / accident UNTIL there is any indication that it wasn't. It's already a traumatic enough event for any family without baseless murder accusations flying around online.

[Mystic Mock]

RIP to Aiden.

Condolences to the family.

And the death will definitely need to be investigated just in case it is more sinister.

[hijaxers]

This 'act' is absolutely enraging and the cries of mitigation from some even more so.

NO ONE forgets about a tiny 3 months old baby for an ENTIRE day even if it is left in another room at home, let alone in a car on its own on a scorching hot Summer's day and ESPECIALLY not its ****ing mother.

My grandchildren come into my thoughts regularly throughout the day and I am a man and not their mother.

The full horror of this innocent tiny baby's death in that stifling heat inside that car is punctuated by the 'mothers' reaction upon coming back to the car and opening the door:

"She came out to the car, and she says she opened the car door and was like, "what is that smell" and she noticed that Aiden was still in the back seat.'.

****ing sickening and like others on here, I do not buy the "I forgot" Bullshot at all.

I wish that I had not read this.

Same Kirk - where the hell did she think her child was ? being cared for by fairies. I just don't believe her story.

[hijaxers]

They say elephants never forget, it's clear humans do forget, I forgot about picking my daughter up from school do to concentrating so much on work.

When humans have to many things on their mind they make mistakes.

School really is not the same as being left in a boiling car there was someone there to care for your child and contact you.

[Marsh.]

School really is not the same as being left in a boiling car there was someone there to care for your child and contact you.

That's not the point though. The point is he forgot about his child, the comparison being made. He was just lucky he forgot when his child wasn't in a life threatening situation. This woman wasn't so lucky.

No similarity was being made between a car and a school.

[hijaxers]

That's not the point though. The point is he forgot about his child, the comparison being made. He was just lucky he forgot when his child wasn't in a life threatening situation. This woman wasn't so lucky.

No similarity was being made between a car and a school.

Ok i get that but obviously her work was more on her mind than her baby ?

[user104658]

Ok i get that but obviously her work was more on her mind than her baby ?Yes. Well, sort of. People become "work zombies" (go through days / weeks on "autopilot mode") but that in itself is not her fault; just another really sad part of the story and of our entire society. A hell of a lot of people have their mental resources monopolised by work, bills and stress... And it's rarely (if ever) by choice.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I expect the lady (an ex and the child was 3 months?) was on opiates/painkillers

[Marsh.]

Yes, them single mothers and their drug addictions.

[user104658]

Yes, them single mothers and their drug addictions.Especially common amongst those who drive and work in medical centres, I hear.

(Im not saying that doesn't happen before someone starts banging on about pill pinchers; I'm just pointing out how ludicrous it is to now start painting this woman as a junkie, as well as a child abuser / murderer)

[Niamh.]

I expect the lady (an ex and the child was 3 months?) was on opiates/painkillersKate McCann was a victim tho x

[Marsh.]

Kate McCann was a victim tho x

:omgno:

[Crimson Dynamo]

i expect she did not forget her mobile phone...

[user104658]

i expect she did not forget her mobile phone...If you have anything substantial to add to the thread then do so LT, it's not really an appropriate one for trolling / sarcasm.

[Vicky.]

All I can say is, anyone who "doesn't believe in this" or thinks that "something like this could never happen to them"... You don't understand this element of human cognition or the potential effects of stress and distraction on memory. It could happen to anyone. Including you. If you're sure it couldn't, you are simply wrong, and most of the people this has happened to would have said exactly the same thing before it happened.

Also; it happens a LOT more than we generally hear about because it usually isn't fatal. The parent will spontaneously remember, or they'll notice just as they get out of the car / turn to get a bag etc from the back seat, or it'll be a short time away from the car, or a temperate day. Also several cases where other people have noticed and raised the alarm / smashed a window / called the police. In all of these cases the child isn't harmed, so we don't hear about it. For every horrible case like this that hits the news, there are a dozen others that have ended, thankfully, without a death.

So yeah... It's not uncommon, at all. To the extent that I personally think new cars should have safety features implemented to ensure that it can't happen. I think aftermarket solutions do exist already, but they should be "as standard" in my opinion, and a legal requirement like seat belts / carseats.
Definitely agree with this, and surely it wouldn't be that had to do either..

I hate stories like this as my immediate thought is to call for the parents head, not going to lie. But of course its something tht can just happen. At the same time there IS the element of it could be on purpose and it would be an 'easy' way to get away with murdering a child...I am sure there was a story like this where the father did do it on purpose.

Either way, horrendous story and RIP to the little one :(

[Vicky.]

And yes, as a parent I have forgotten about my child on occasion, but luckily nothing came of it..though it was only for a very short period of time, like my son was off school ill and was asleep and I was geting ready to go to the shop, totally forgetting that he was in bed upstairs as he should have been at school, I remembered before I went out mind but I did temporarily forget while I was getting ready (and yes LT, I am on opiates..not sure why thats relevant). I don't think this mean I should not be a parent though.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I hate stories like this as my immediate thought is to call for the parents head

:idc:

yes one comes to mind doesent it

[Vicky.]

:idc:

yes one comes to mind doesent it
Yes, but that one was quite different. That was parents intentionally leaving their children to go get pissed. If it turns out this parent left their child on purpose and the child died, then I will have as much anger for her as those ones. Just those ones admitted that they left their kids on purpose :idc:

[user104658]

I think I've said before on here, I've done it the other way before, when our youngest started nursery. She's always been quiet in the car, just sits peacefully so you don't really notice her... We had dropped the kids off at school / nursery then Awent for some shopping then driven home, and I got out the car then opened the back door to get the youngest out and had a moment of "Oh my god we've left her at the supermarket!!". Like a genuine horrible shock before remembering that she had started nursery and was there safe and sound.

I can understand how it happens the other way round. All it takes is a brief lapse of concentration in an exhausted parent, and they'll be sat at their desk at work fully believing that their child is safely in childcare. (As for people saying that "normal parents" call every half hour to check up on their kids in childcare... Err... No? That's not really normal? They have contact details for you if something is wrong.)

Again though it does need to be looked at to see if there's anything suspicious but with the assumption being that there won't be. Frankly (and morbidly) it ISN'T a particularly foolproof or devious murder plot, not in a car park that's actively being used, as again this actually happens a lot more than is reported - usually someone notices and raises the alarm and things end well.

[Vicky.]

(As for people saying that "normal parents" call every half hour to check up on their kids in childcare... Err... No? That's not really normal? They have contact details for you if something is wrong.)


Yeas thats ****ing ridiculous IMO. I have never rang to see if my kids were OK at nursery...they ring you if theres any problems. Mind, my nursery also ring if the child is off and you haven't contacted them to let them know why...which is a good idea too.

[user104658]

:idc:

yes one comes to mind doesent itThe key word there would be "immediate" LT - if more information about this case comes out the opinions will change. Its a bit different to a case where information has been widely available for a decade.

[AnnieK]

I never rang nursery either apart from the first couple of days when he was unsettled going in. In fact they actively discouraged it as a member of staff had to leave the room to answer the phone.

[Vicky.]

I never rang nursery either apart from the first couple of days when he was unsettled going in. In fact they actively discouraged it as a member of staff had to leave the room to answer the phone.

Of course. If every parent rang every half hour to check on their kids, the phonelines would be blocked for starters, and the staff would be overrun. Its just a stupid thing to say and if any parent genuinely does ring every half hour, I think they have issues tbh

[Ammi]

..I think for me it’s not a thing of...HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN/bad mother, type thing...but more HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN to a good mother..is what I’m going to assume she is...I mean, how could that happen not just to her but to a rising number of parents as is being said in the article...?...it’s looking at the stress being placed on lives in the modern day, which should never ever contribute in such proportions felt to this happening to a child...

...there are links in our thought processes as TS has said...and with those links, subconscious risk assessments that we are not aware of are made as well that would prevent from a parent not realising for the whole day that their child was still in a car in extreme heat temperatures...as Annie said, she was left outside of the shop in a prom by her mum because back in the day, outside of a shop was the ‘norm’ for a pram with a baby in it..so a safe place as it were...it was also more the norm I would say to have someone notice a mother go past with two children but return with only one and approach that person and say...oh what did you do with the other one..:laugh:...anyways, she may have made her whole way home without realising because she had left our Annie in a safe place so far as her head connections were concerned...so it can take a longer time to come to that realisation...and as Vicky said, she’s forgotten about a child on occasion, probably a juggling balls type occassii with stress linked to it but I don’t think it was so much ‘lucky’ no harm came, I think again, it was more of a subconscious risk assessment thought and link, type thing in knowing her children were in a safe place...I might be wrong but...anyways, many parents I have known, have forgotten to collect their child from school, it’s completely escaped their mind on that particular day and mostly through employment related things and stresses etc...and it’s sad to see but it’s still that ‘risk assessment’ sub conscious link in knowing their child is in a safe place...the school staff are not going to push them out and tell them to walk home across all of the busy roads etc and with all potential dangers...


...those type of things are more the ‘norm’ type of things but an increasing number of parents leaving their baby in a car for such a length of time in extreme heat which should alert every instinct of risk assessment in their very being are most definately not the norm I would say...but also not intentional either...so it’s looking at the stresses of modern parents, how this could ever happen to such an extreme...it’s looking at help obviously with this mother right now and with the whole family because this has happened, sadly...but it’s also looking at any possible prevent for the future...any signs of extreme stress in the juggling of parental and work lives...because this should never, ever have happened with all of the sub conscious risk assesments...I mean, how can this have happened to anyone, any mother, any child...I don’t know if there is an answer but can anything be done and looked at that would help to prevent these rising numbers...either within the workplace, with social care, with friends or family etc...just in anyway whatsoever...do babies have to die in such awful ways before it’s realised that life balances are not working for everyone and sometimes they’re tipping very dangerously...and if that is ever noticed with one person, it shouldn’t be ignored by anyone...


...poor child, poor mother, poor family...:sad:..

[Cherie]

Yeas thats ****ing ridiculous IMO. I have never rang to see if my kids were OK at nursery...they ring you if theres any problems. Mind, my nursery also ring if the child is off and you haven't contacted them to let them know why...which is a good idea too.

I dont think anyone suggested parents were ringing every half hour, the baby was 3 months old so realistically how long could he have being going to the nursery, I remember when I put my eldest in nursery at 9 months ringing in my lunchbreak to check as it would have been a new experience for him, obviously if your childs first experience of nursery is at age 3 this is a different issue, an easy way to prevent incidents like this is to put a policy in place that if a baby is expected at nursery and they dont turn up with no notification, the staff are obliged to call the parents.

[Vicky.]

I dont think anyone suggested parents were ringing every half hour, the baby was 3 months old so realistically how long could he have being going to the nursery, I remember when I put my eldest in nursery at 9 months ringing in my lunchbreak to check as it would have been a new experience for him, obviously if your childs first experience of nursery is at age 3 this is a different issue, an easy way to prevent incidents like this is to put a policy in place that if a baby is expected at nursery and they dont turn up with no notification, the staff are obliged to call the parents.

yup, I actually assumed all nurserys would be like mine.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I dont think anyone suggested parents were ringing every half hour, the baby was 3 months old so realistically how long could he have being going to the nursery, I remember when I put my eldest in nursery at 9 months ringing in my lunchbreak to check as it would have been a new experience for him, obviously if your childs first experience of nursery is at age 3 this is a different issue, an easy way to prevent incidents like this is to put a policy in place that if a baby is expected at nursery and they dont turn up with no notification, the staff are obliged to call the parents.

this is what happens at my primary

[kirklancaster]

I'm sorry, but on this - as with most subjects on here - I will adhere to my intuition, logic and personal experience.

T.S - I respect your qualification, but to be honest, as far as I am concerned,'facts' from the fields of psychology and cognitive neuroscience are not facts at all but mere 'theory'.

In my opinion, and as far as psychologists and psychiatrists are concerned, a great number of them need to heed the advice of Jesus in Luke 4.23; 'Physician, heal thyself' because they are among the loopiest people in existence.

If not for the 'expert' input of some of them at parole board hearings certifying the would-be parolees as 'cured', many twisted evil killers would NOT have been released early from their long prison sentences to kill again.

I know that every human is 'different' mentally and psychologically and that we all react to 'stress' differently, but all over the planet throughout history, there have been and are mothers who struggle to fend off debt whilst raising multiple kids and though some of them may, at times, have had temporary lapses of memory, they did not forget all about a 3 months old baby for almost an entire day.

And THAT is my point; that this was a 3 months old baby.

Which parent - no matter how stressed or distracted they might be, could spend a full day without their virtual new-born baby entering their thoughts?

Seriously?

And would not thinking about that baby have 'jogged' her memory? - caused doubts to surface about whether she HAD dropped off the baby or not?

I have had to turn the car around several times when we had set off for some night out because my wife had suddenly raised doubts about whether she had turned off the iron/her straighteners/locked the door or not - never mind leaving a three months old baby in the back of a searing hot parked car.

LT actually makes a succinct but highly valid point when he said: 'I bet she didn't forget her mobile phone' and I'm sorry but SOMETHING about this whole tragic incident does not 'sit right' with me.

If the story is genuine, then Livia is correct and this 'mother' needs to think very carefully about having any more babies, and if it is not, then I hope the truth is eventually ascertained and this 'mother' gets her just dessert.

[Cherie]

yup, I actually assumed all nurserys would be like mine.

this is what happens at my primary

I don't think this is a policy in private nurseries where this baby would have been, only when children enter 'the system' via free nursery places and schools are they obliged to keep records of non attendance

Private nurseries could put this policy in place easily and levy an admin charge against parents who do not bother to let them know the baby will be attending.

[Cherie]

I was called by my primary school to say he wasn't there when he was in school :skull:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Id be interested to see what "medication" this lady was on if any

I guess the police look at this first

[Shaun]

It's neglect, pure and simple, and she should be prosecuted. I don't care how preoccupied you are, your #1 thought at all times should be the baby you're looking after and I just can't ever imagine being so absent-minded as to forget I've left him/her in the car.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's neglect, pure and simple, and she should be prosecuted. I don't care how preoccupied you are, your #1 thought at all times should be the baby you're looking after and I just can't ever imagine being so absent-minded as to forget I've left him/her in the car.

and certainly not ALL DAY

[Kazanne]

and certainly not ALL DAY

It's the ALL DAY thing that gets me tbh,ok some might forget for 5 mins or so,but a whole day, Would this child be in a nursery at 3 mths old:shrug: mine is 5 mths plus and all I seem to do all day is cuddle,feed,change and chat to her,no way on Gods earth could I forget her, I am with those who think this doesn't sit right,surely someone would have also asked how her baby was,surely that would jog your memory, I always look round my car as I get out,don't most people?

[Vicky.]

I was called by my primary school to say he wasn't there when he was in school :skull:

Yup this happened to me once too. I **** myself...I was absolutely beside myself with worry about how the hell he could have been taken from school..I ran to the school and it turned out that the teacher had just marked him not in when he was ffs. I went bazzerk, and was told if I did not calm down they would call the police, and since it turned out everything was fine I should be happy, not angry!

[Vicky.]

https://www.babyalert.info/design/index.html

All parents should have one of these grandparents too..or anyone who has regular contact with young children :/

Also an interesting and horrific read on this topic

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/fatal-distraction-forgetting-a-child-in-thebackseat-of-a-car-is-a-horrifying-mistake-is-it-a-crime/2014/06/16/8ae0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html?utm_term=.668c22ae1343

[Maru]

I'm sorry, but on this - as with most subjects on here - I will adhere to my intuition, logic and personal experience.

T.S - I respect your qualification, but to be honest, as far as I am concerned,'facts' from the fields of psychology and cognitive neuroscience are not facts at all but mere 'theory'.

In my opinion, and as far as psychologists and psychiatrists are concerned, a great number of them need to heed the advice of Jesus in Luke 4.23; 'Physician, heal thyself' because they are among the loopiest people in existence.

1) I agree. Doctors can be reactionary just like any one of us and opinion can supercede common sense. Whatever their degree or field of expertise, humans are not infallible. Psych is a relatively new field in many ways, and going by the state of how that's working and how people are further and further moving from self-management to complete dependence, I think we're quite a ways away from having that be even well understood.... that's my opinion.

2) Add to that, the emphasis on psych and laws to "fix"/"patch" life in such a way to remove all the head work seems to come down to wanting to limit as much personal responsibility as possible for every individual. "Well they should have laws for this... put up another barrier here...add incentives, remove incentives there...". Checks & balances and laws will never trump stupidity... there's warnings for everything now and people can still be quite careless.

3) Just to give an example of how this can work: During the tax day flood a few years ago, this young lady went AROUND a barrier AND an officer sitting at a checkpoint with lights to GO into an underpass at 5am in the morning when it is still pouring and is FLOODED,... yeah... the inevitable happens and there's video of her cries for help flashing her cell phone out the back window of her car as it's sinking. The man at the checkpoint SWAM to go get her, but had to turn back because there was a real risk he would've ended up in peril as well (again, bad weather).. fast-forward and her mother was on TV right away saying what a tragedy it was, but it's because they should've had an electronic gate AS well as the closed gate (the manual one) AND the guard... "like they have in these other cities I have seen on TV", etc... and the city wanting good PR, they put up the damn gate... um, your daughter DROVE around the checkmarks? Clearly marked, NOT SAFE! She actively avoided all the very obvious signs she was about to put herself in danger... who is to say she wouldn't have gotten flooded out on another road further on the way home... it only takes about a ft of fast-moving water to pull a car into the current, so she could've gotten herself in trouble elsewhere... but no, it's the city's fault and everyone else for not putting more warnings... when it is already literally polluted with signage, water guages, on both the roads and underpasses... there's no excuse and I think we're too quick to argue for more "fail-safes" rather than more self-accountability... my 2 cents.

4) Now granted, that lady in #3 may very well be different as a parent, and I think that's also the struggle that some people may be having in relation to this story...

If not for the 'expert' input of some of them at parole board hearings certifying the would-be parolees as 'cured', many twisted evil killers would NOT have been released early from their long prison sentences to kill again.

I know that every human is 'different' mentally and psychologically and that we all react to 'stress' differently, but all over the planet throughout history, there have been and are mothers who struggle to fend off debt whilst raising multiple kids and though some of them may, at times, have had temporary lapses of memory, they did not forget all about a 3 months old baby for almost an entire day.

And THAT is my point; that this was a 3 months old baby.

Which parent - no matter how stressed or distracted they might be, could spend a full day without their virtual new-born baby entering their thoughts?

Seriously?

And would not thinking about that baby have 'jogged' her memory? - caused doubts to surface about whether she HAD dropped off the baby or not?

I have had to turn the car around several times when we had set off for some night out because my wife had suddenly raised doubts about whether she had turned off the iron/her straighteners/locked the door or not - never mind leaving a three months old baby in the back of a searing hot parked car.

Me. :skull: Flat-irons, dogs... the doors I can monitor through our alarm system, so there's no running home for that anymore because it won't arm otherwise or it will say disabled when I login to arm... and 99.5% of the time, I did remember anyway. :laugh:

LT actually makes a succinct but highly valid point when he said: 'I bet she didn't forget her mobile phone' and I'm sorry but SOMETHING about this whole tragic incident does not 'sit right' with me.

If the story is genuine, then Livia is correct and this 'mother' needs to think very carefully about having any more babies, and if it is not, then I hope the truth is eventually ascertained and this 'mother' gets her just dessert.

All that said, kirk, while I agree with your points... I do tend to be very hesistant myself to raise a pitchfork with these kinds of stories and to pass ultimate judgement... but I do have to say, that having more checks is not going to "fix" stupid... and we're all prone to stupid. To that end, I respond very similarly to Ashley here:

The most important responsibility as a parent is putting your child's needs above your own. Of course she didn't leave him in the car on purpose, but an innocent life was lost because she failed to be a parent that day. She'll receive the punishment of having to live with her actions for the rest of her life, and heaven forbid she has any more children

Giving it that thought, it doesn't mean that her act was not careless and didn't amount to neglect. It does and I'm not OK with just giving a pass because "reasons". We all have reasons for the dumb things we do, but we understandably have to be accountable for them. Doesn't make the grieving process easier.. in fact, I don't how it would. In her shoes, I wouldn't be thinking of how other people thought of my mistake, nor care about pitchforks. I would be absolutely devestated. The "fall-out" of public opinion would be the LEAST of my concerns...

We can't eliminate all the perils in life for peace-of-mind... if an individual really needs to depend on gadgets and gizmos and third parties to tell us how to parent, then they likely won't be very good parents in more practical ways... in fact, I think actually that would affect my own ability to care for someone else in a meaningful way, the anxiety that would introduce (having to constantly "check in" with something)... I think it would just make me more aware of those perils and rather anxious...

So on that point, not everyone can afford a car with top-level safety features.. moreover, it's pushing up the price of every car and the overall standard of living the more laws and regulations we add just for edge-cases.. and we are still worried about poverty? It doesn't prevent people from being stupid. Unless your car can CALL your phone if you leave somene in the car, and even then your phone could be dead, on silent, and that means even more gizmos your car would need to make that happen... and when it malfunctions in an annoying way, more sh** to fix.

I will say too in my case, there was a point when I had severe memory loss from strange reaction to medication.. but then I had to stop driving for that reason, Much less using my gas stove or heating anything that could lead to the home being burnt down... no "safety" features would've helped in those cases, because my mind would go blank... so yeah, I can see if someone is that anxiety-prone where their brain goes on the fritz, it could certainly affect things like that and I wouldn't say in those cases those people are safe to drive if they tend to "switch off"... not good.

TDLR: Blah blah blah... read the post.

[Marsh.]

https://www.babyalert.info/design/index.html

All parents should have one of these grandparents too..or anyone who has regular contact with young children :/

Also an interesting and horrific read on this topic

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/fatal-distraction-forgetting-a-child-in-thebackseat-of-a-car-is-a-horrifying-mistake-is-it-a-crime/2014/06/16/8ae0fe3a-f580-11e3-a3a5-42be35962a52_story.html?utm_term=.668c22ae1343

Each instance has its own macabre signature. One father had parked his car next to the grounds of a county fair; as he discovered his son’s body, a calliope tootled merrily beside him. Another man, wanting to end things quickly, tried to wrestle a gun from a police officer at the scene. Several people -- including Mary Parks of Blacksburg -- have driven from their workplace to the day-care center to pick up the child they’d thought they’d dropped off, never noticing the corpse in the back seat.

:worry:

[Marsh.]

I'm their long prison sentences to kill again.

I know that every human is 'different' mentally and psychologically and that we all react to 'stress' differently, but all over the planet throughout history, there have been and are mothers who struggle to fend off debt whilst raising multiple kids and though some of them may, at times, have had temporary lapses of memory, they did not forget all about a 3 months old baby for almost an entire day.

And THAT is my point; that this was a 3 months old baby.

Which parent - no matter how stressed or distracted they might be, could spend a full day without their virtual new-born baby entering their thoughts?

Seriously?

But, it's not that the baby doesn't enter their thoughts at all, but that they believe the baby to be with the caregiver?

We're not talking about people forgetting the existence of their children, but being so distracted they believe they've dropped the child off at daycare.

[Vicky.]

and we're all prone to stupid.

Quite. A point touched upon in my (admittedly very very long) link from earlier.


David Diamond is picking at his breakfast at a Washington hotel, trying to explain.

“Memory is a machine,” he says, “and it is not flawless. Our conscious mind prioritizes things by importance, but on a cellular level, our memory does not. If you’re capable of forgetting your cellphone, you are potentially capable of forgetting your child.”

Diamond is a professor of molecular physiology at the University of South Florida and a consultant to the veterans hospital in Tampa. He’s here for a national science conference to give a speech about his research, which involves the intersection of emotion, stress and memory. What he’s found is that under some circumstances, the most sophisticated part of our thought-processing center can be held hostage to a competing memory system, a primitive portion of the brain that is -- by a design as old as the dinosaur’s -- inattentive, pigheaded, nonanalytical, stupid.

Diamond is the memory expert with a lousy memory, the one who recently realized, while driving to the mall, that his infant granddaughter was asleep in the back of the car. He remembered only because his wife, sitting beside him, mentioned the baby. He understands what could have happened had he been alone with the child. Almost worse, he understands exactly why.

The human brain, he says, is a magnificent but jury-rigged device in which newer and more sophisticated structures sit atop a junk heap of prototype brains still used by lower species. At the top of the device are the smartest and most nimble parts: the prefrontal cortex, which thinks and analyzes, and the hippocampus, which makes and holds on to our immediate memories. At the bottom is the basal ganglia, nearly identical to the brains of lizards, controlling voluntary but barely conscious actions.

Diamond says that in situations involving familiar, routine motor skills, the human animal presses the basal ganglia into service as a sort of auxiliary autopilot. When our prefrontal cortex and hippocampus are planning our day on the way to work, the ignorant but efficient basal ganglia is operating the car; that’s why you’ll sometimes find yourself having driven from point A to point B without a clear recollection of the route you took, the turns you made or the scenery you saw.

Ordinarily, says Diamond, this delegation of duty “works beautifully, like a symphony. But sometimes, it turns into the ‘1812 Overture.’ The cannons take over and overwhelm.”

By experimentally exposing rats to the presence of cats, and then recording electrochemical changes in the rodents’ brains, Diamond has found that stress -- either sudden or chronic -- can weaken the brain’s higher-functioning centers, making them more susceptible to bullying from the basal ganglia. He’s seen the same sort of thing play out in cases he’s followed involving infant deaths in cars.

“The quality of prior parental care seems to be irrelevant,” he said. “The important factors that keep showing up involve a combination of stress, emotion, lack of sleep and change in routine, where the basal ganglia is trying to do what it’s supposed to do, and the conscious mind is too weakened to resist. What happens is that the memory circuits in a vulnerable hippocampus literally get overwritten, like with a computer program. Unless the memory circuit is rebooted -- such as if the child cries, or, you know, if the wife mentions the child in the back -- it can entirely disappear.”

[jaxie]

What I find most odd about this story, beyond the fact that someone failed to remember to drop off a baby and also didn't see the baby in the back seat when getting out of the car, is the time lapse. It seems odd that she didn't check in with the caregiver during lunch with regard such a young baby, or at some point during the day.

I did have a friend who said she went out to the shops and left her newborn in his pram in the hallway of her house but she remembered him within few minutes of leaving the house and ran home in a panic. Most people I've heard of doing this remember their child very quickly so yes the time lapse seems a bit strange.

I also find it really odd that anyone can leave a car without seeing the child seat through the window. Most seats for a baby that young are fairly noticeable and come out of the car with the baby in it.

I think there are definitely questions to be asked and answered of the mother.

[Crimson Dynamo]

all the memory stuff is just fine but does any of it explain forgetting ALL DAY?

[Beso]

i expect she did not forget her mobile phone...

Not all day, thats for sure.

[kirklancaster]

Quite. A point touched upon in my (admittedly very very long) link from earlier.

Psychobabble, Vicky - Sorry.

[Niamh.]

all the memory stuff is just fine but does any of it explain forgetting ALL DAY?

It wouldn't actually be forgetting all day though if she had it in her head the baby was in nursery as normal?

[Crimson Dynamo]

It wouldn't actually be forgetting all day though if she had it in her head the baby was in nursery as normal?

yes but to be under that delusion all day?

have you ever had such an spic and all day delusion like this?

[Niamh.]

yes but to be under that delusion all day?

have you ever had such an spic and all day delusion like this?

Well you wouldn't think about it though If you just assumed you'd done what you did every other day, it's not like all day you're actively forgetting?

I've forgotten stuff that are part of normal routines before yeah, thankfully nothing like this though

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well you wouldn't think about it though If you just assumed you'd done what you did every other day, it's not like all day you're actively forgetting?

I've forgotten stuff that are part of normal routines before yeah, thankfully nothing like this though

I would like to know what medications this lady is taking as it sounds like she was in a painkiller haze

:suspect:

[Niamh.]

I would like to know what medications this lady is taking as it sounds like she was in a painkiller haze

:suspect:

or just really tired and distracted

[Cherie]

I still can't get over getting out of the car and not noticing, she was going to work so it is not like she wouldn't have her handbag and or her lunch, so you pull up and park, with no reversing in this case as you would see the baby in your rear view, and even if your handbag is in the front seat surely in your peripheral vision you would catch sight of the baby seat, unless the seat was behind the drivers seat but then you get out bang the door, no one closes a car door gently, lock the door even with a zapper you tend to look so again, but maybe the rear windows where tinted, :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

or just really tired and distracted

nope

not all day

[Ammi]

..I guess all of those things will go on and on and on and on in her head for a lifetime, Cherie...how could I have...how, how, how...so tragic..:sad:...

[user104658]

I'm sorry, but on this - as with most subjects on here - I will adhere to my intuition, logic and personal experience.

T.S - I respect your qualification, but to be honest, as far as I am concerned,'facts' from the fields of psychology and cognitive neuroscience are not facts at all but mere 'theory'. .

As I said kirk, thankfully, in cases such as these it really doesn't matter what you believe / don't believe or understand / don't understand, because the legal policy surrounding these issues is based on established medical fact and not the whim of members of the public who "don't get it".

To answer other questions I've randomly seen,

1) it's more common in the US because their maternity laws are absolutely shocking, so yes, it is relatively common for month old babies to be in daycare because exhausted new parents are expected to be straight back to work. It's not something we're used to seeing in the UK because of mandatory maternity pay laws.

2) Yes "all day" is perfectly feasible because what we're talking about is a "memory trick" not simply "forgetting something". People are trying to understand it based on "absentmindedness"; it's more like a memory hiccup, misremembering events from a previous day (such as dropping off a child) as if they happened that day. One of the main causes of that phenomenon is sleep deprivation, as the late phases of your sleep cycle are when your "fresh" memories of the previous day are categorised into long term memory. In other words, not getting enough sleep can trick your brain into thinking that events from the previous day happened that day.


I'm sure this will also be branded "psycho babble!" and people will determinedly insist that there's no WAY that this could happen to them but... It could.

Similar to how people hear about full amnesia / dementia, and most people think, "Oh that surely couldn't happen to me... I could never forget who my family is!"

Yes you could.

[Cherie]

At any rate it is happening a little too often for procedures not to be put in place at private nurseries

[Ammi]

As I said kirk, thankfully, in cases such as these it really doesn't matter what you believe / don't believe or understand / don't understand, because the legal policy surrounding these issues is based on established medical fact and not the whim of members of the public who "don't get it".

To answer other questions I've randomly seen,

1) it's more common in the US because their maternity laws are absolutely shocking, so yes, it is relatively common for month old babies to be in daycare because exhausted new parents are expected to be straight back to work. It's not something we're used to seeing in the UK because of mandatory maternity pay laws.

2) Yes "all day" is perfectly feasible because what we're talking about is a "memory trick" not simply "forgetting something". People are trying to understand it based on "absentmindedness"; it's more like a memory hiccup, misremembering events from a previous day (such as dropping off a child) as if they happened that day. One of the main causes of that phenomenon is sleep deprivation, as the late phases of your sleep cycle are when your "fresh" memories of the previous day are categorised into long term memory. In other words, not getting enough sleep can trick your brain into thinking that events from the previous day happened that day.


I'm sure this will also be branded "psycho babble!" and people will determinedly insist that there's no WAY that this could happen to them but... It could.

Similar to how people hear about full amnesia / dementia, and most people think, "Oh that surely couldn't happen to me... I could never forget who my family is!"

Yes you could.

..post natal depression could be a factor as well in the thought links as American parents go back to work so quickly, TS...that could be a ‘trigger’ for that as well...there is so much that we don’t know, I think...

[Ammi]

..it’s understandable for a healthy, sound mind to think...I could never, it could never happen, how could it happen etc...and it might have felt like a sound and healthy mind who had gone back to work and was coping with the stress balls in their life...but maybe and obviously not, at all...it’s something that really needs to be looked into in returning to work mothers in the USA particularly if that’s were it’s mostly happened...
.

[Niamh.]

nope

not all dayYou're just saying the same thing over and over and totally ignoring the whole day thing but whatever

[Crimson Dynamo]

You're just saying the same thing over and over and totally ignoring the whole day thing but whatever

but all the whole she was tired arguments are fine to forget an appointment, why you went upstairs, why you left your phone at home, why you forgot a dentist appointment but so not explain why you would think you had dropped off a child and why that delusion lasted all day?

unless she was on some sort of strong medication

[user104658]

Honestly, people who find this phenomenon far-fetched should look into things like fugue states, or the aftereffects of a corpus callosotomy (the link between the two hemispheres of the brain being severed).

Yes, they do seem utterly unbelievable. Because thankfully for most of us, most of the time, things "just work" so we get the impression that the mind and cognition are relatively stable / simple.

[user104658]

but all the whole she was tired arguments are fine to forget an appointment, why you went upstairs, why you left your phone at home, why you forgot a dentist appointment but so not explain why you would think you had dropped off a child and why that delusion lasted all day?

unless she was on some sort of strong medicationWhat confuses me a bit LT is that you believe it can happen under the effects of drugs, but not as an effect of stress and sleep deprivation... When those things can have just as big an effect (and more!) as any drug?

I mean even on the most basic level, it has been statistically PROVEN that driving while extremely tired is just as dangerous (and often more dangerous) than driving under the effects of alcohol or drugs. And that's not just because of the risk of passing out, it's because of the drastic reduction in reaction time and ability to concentrate.

[user104658]

I mean just for context here; several days of sleep deprivation can cause seizures, auditory and visual hallucinations, temporary psychosis and eventually can even kill you.

Why people don't believe that in more minor cases it could cause memory tricks / lapse in concentration "for a whole day" is beyond me.

[Niamh.]

At any rate it is happening a little too often for procedures not to be put in place at private nurseriesYes absolutely right Cherie, a policy of calling the parent/s if a child doesn't arrive would be a good idea I think. My kids school do this

[Crimson Dynamo]

What confuses me a bit LT is that you believe it can happen under the effects of drugs, but not as an effect of stress and sleep deprivation... When those things can have just as big an effect (and more!) as any drug?

I mean even on the most basic level, it has been statistically PROVEN that driving while extremely tired is just as dangerous (and often more dangerous) than driving under the effects of alcohol or drugs. And that's not just because of the risk of passing out, it's because of the drastic reduction in reaction time and ability to concentrate.

i am just looking at the more likely scenario

[Cherie]

Yes absolutely right Cherie, a policy of calling the parent/s if a child doesn't arrive would be a good idea I think. My kids school do this

I think when kids get 'into the system' all nurseries and schools have to do it because attendance is monitored, at private nurseries I doubt they need to do it but they should

Such a simple policy to put in place, all you need is an answerphone, and charge parents an admin fee if they do not ring up, for the staff time ringing them, how many babies lives would be saved they all seem to happen with nursery drop off

[The Slim Reaper]

I'm sorry, but on this - as with most subjects on here - I will adhere to my intuition, logic and personal experience.

T.S - I respect your qualification, but to be honest, as far as I am concerned,'facts' from the fields of psychology and cognitive neuroscience are not facts at all but mere 'theory'.

In my opinion, and as far as psychologists and psychiatrists are concerned, a great number of them need to heed the advice of Jesus in Luke 4.23; 'Physician, heal thyself' because they are among the loopiest people in existence.

If not for the 'expert' input of some of them at parole board hearings certifying the would-be parolees as 'cured', many twisted evil killers would NOT have been released early from their long prison sentences to kill again.

I know that every human is 'different' mentally and psychologically and that we all react to 'stress' differently, but all over the planet throughout history, there have been and are mothers who struggle to fend off debt whilst raising multiple kids and though some of them may, at times, have had temporary lapses of memory, they did not forget all about a 3 months old baby for almost an entire day.

And THAT is my point; that this was a 3 months old baby.

Which parent - no matter how stressed or distracted they might be, could spend a full day without their virtual new-born baby entering their thoughts?

Seriously?

And would not thinking about that baby have 'jogged' her memory? - caused doubts to surface about whether she HAD dropped off the baby or not?

I have had to turn the car around several times when we had set off for some night out because my wife had suddenly raised doubts about whether she had turned off the iron/her straighteners/locked the door or not - never mind leaving a three months old baby in the back of a searing hot parked car.

LT actually makes a succinct but highly valid point when he said: 'I bet she didn't forget her mobile phone' and I'm sorry but SOMETHING about this whole tragic incident does not 'sit right' with me.

If the story is genuine, then Livia is correct and this 'mother' needs to think very carefully about having any more babies, and if it is not, then I hope the truth is eventually ascertained and this 'mother' gets her just dessert.

How about the advice Jesus gives us in John 8:7 - "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Or how about Matthew 7:1-3 "Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

See how easy it is to point to "ancient wisdom" and use it as an excuse to wall yourself in and away from thinking?

What are your issues with the study of the mind?

[Ashley.]

I still can't get over getting out of the car and not noticing, she was going to work so it is not like she wouldn't have her handbag and or her lunch, so you pull up and park, with no reversing in this case as you would see the baby in your rear view, and even if your handbag is in the front seat surely in your peripheral vision you would catch sight of the baby seat, unless the seat was behind the drivers seat but then you get out bang the door, no one closes a car door gently, lock the door even with a zapper you tend to look so again, but maybe the rear windows where tinted, :shrug:

I was also thinking... surely somebody else would have noticed the child in the car? Assuming she parked in the workplace I would have thought she'd have coworkers going in and out and at least one would notice the child. The whole thing is just bizarre.

[jaxie]

I think when kids get 'into the system' all nurseries and schools have to do it because attendance is monitored, at private nurseries I doubt they need to do it but they should

Such a simple policy to put in place, all you need is an answerphone, and charge parents an admin fee if they do not ring up, for the staff time ringing them, how many babies lives would be saved they all seem to happen with nursery drop off

This sounds like a very sensible action that could be taken that might save some lives. Though there are always people who didn't charge their phone or can't have calls at work or some other thing.

Maybe some kind of check and double check thing introducted to anti natal classes might help too and health visitors deumming it home as well. Check the car, check again.

[Vicky.]

This sounds like a very sensible action that could be taken that might save some lives. Though there are always people who didn't charge their phone or can't have calls at work or some other thing.

Its an extra layer of swiss cheese though.

[Marsh.]

all the memory stuff is just fine but does any of it explain forgetting ALL DAY?

Yes. Because, again, they're not forgetting the baby exists, they think they have already dropped the baby off with who they are supposed to be with.

[kirklancaster]

How about the advice Jesus gives us in John 8:7 - "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Or how about Matthew 7:1-3 "Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

See how easy it is to point to "ancient wisdom" and use it as an excuse to wall yourself in and away from thinking?

What are your issues with the study of the mind?

What the **** are you waffling on about now?

First the emboldened:

What is your issue with me should be the question because you keep leaping in all confrontational but then shy away without answering once I take you on?

And look at that sig of yours where you have quoted me out of context - what is THAT all about?

You asked me a ludicrous question in a post: "Have you met any humans, Kirk?" and I answered you in the same fashion, yet for some idiotic reason known only to yourself, you chose to use my response in your sig.

Anyway, back to this from you:

What the hell do those quotes from the Gospels have to do with anything?
And as for:

"See how easy it is to point to "ancient wisdom" and use it as an excuse to wall yourself in and away from thinking?

You are a joker my old son. Where in my post does the use of a quote which is relevant to underscoring what I am saying in that post, justify you interpreting that I am 'walling myself in away from thinking'?

No one who knows me in 'real life' would accuse me of not being a 'thinker' and I am confident that - love me or hate me - no other member on here would accuse me of not being a thinker either.

To be honest, your post is just meaningless waffle based on your own misinterpretation and it really says NOTHING and adds NOTHING to this debate.

I have no problem with 'the study of the mind', but I do not believe that all conclusions hailing from such studies are infallible fact, and - as in all professions - there are good and bad 'experts' and quite a few appalling ones.

[Marsh.]

i am just looking at the more likely scenario

So every person this has ever happened to must have been on drugs.

But, wait, they weren't.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes. Because, again, they're not forgetting the baby exists, they think they have already dropped the baby off with who they are supposed to be with.

yes you often find that people go to work thinking they have done their big shop at tesco only to get home after work and think :omgno: my cupboards are empty

or indeed sleep in till 5 as they already thought they had been to work that day

that happens all the time

[Nicky91]

yes you often find that people go to work thinking they have done their big shop at tesco only to get home after work and think :omgno: my cupboards are empty

or indeed sleep in till 5 as they already thought they had been to work that day

that happens all the time

yep, especially single moms/dads who have to work all day long and when they come home they have nothing in their cupboards

is that what you mean LT?

[Crimson Dynamo]

So every person this has ever happened to must have been on drugs.

But, wait, they weren't.

It seems to happen a lot in the USA and they have an opiate and painkiller crisis

[Crimson Dynamo]

yep, especially single moms/dads who have to work all day long and when they come home they have nothing in their cupboards

is that what you mean LT?

its isnt no

[Marsh.]

yes you often find that people go to work thinking they have done their big shop at tesco only to get home after work and think :omgno: my cupboards are empty

or indeed sleep in till 5 as they already thought they had been to work that day

that happens all the time

Try reading the link in Vicky's post on the previous page, which explains in detail a number of these cases and how they occurred. They don't just forget... just because. A series of factors all build up together.

Or... just carry on making unconstructive comments and feeble jokes.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Try reading the link in Vicky's post on the previous page, which explains in detail a number of these cases and how they occurred. They don't just forget... just because. A series of factors all build up together.

Or... just carry on making unconstructive comments and feeble jokes.

Its easy to justify using cod science and theory as Kirk states. Do you know if this lady was on any strong prescribed or otherwise medication?

[Marsh.]

Its easy to justify using cod science and theory as Kirk states. Do you know if this lady was on any strong prescribed or otherwise medication?

Not talking about science. The article goes in depth with the details of a number of the cases along with district attorney's explanations as to why they opted to bring criminal charges (or not in some cases).

But if you want to carry on assuming they simply just forget the existence of their children... just because, carry on...

And none of the cases discussed in the article mention any kind of drugs or alcohol playing any part.

-

No, I don't. Do you? You seem obsessed with self medicating.

[Nicky91]

Try reading the link in Vicky's post on the previous page, which explains in detail a number of these cases and how they occurred. They don't just forget... just because. A series of factors all build up together.

Or... just carry on making unconstructive comments and feeble jokes.

exactly, true about the link in Vicky's post, it does explain this really well

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not talking about science. The article goes in depth with the details of a number of the cases along with district attorney's explanations as to why they opted to bring criminal charges (or not in some cases).

But if you want to carry on assuming they simply just forget the existence of their children... just because, carry on...

And none of the cases discussed in the article mention any kind of drugs or alcohol playing any part.

-

No, I don't. Do you? You seem obsessed with self medicating.


No you dont. well, i am reserving any judgement until we do find out.



and by the way marshall, do you see how each time i reply to you I dont need to make a sly dig to make my self feel better?

a concept

[Marsh.]

No you dont. well, i am reserving any judgement until we do find out.

Except... you haven't withheld judgement.

I never said she hadn't used meds. I was explaining that this type of thing has happened without the involvement of drugs or alcohol a great number of times.

You are the one making repeated comments about single mothers and drugs. Almost as though you find your misogyny funny.


and by the way marshall, do you see how each time i reply to you I dont need to make a sly dig to make my self feel better?

a concept

You find someone telling you you're not contributing to the discussion or your posts are uninformed a "sly dig"? Or your attempts at humour are falling flat?

I didn't realise you had such thin skin, I'll make a note for future.

[Nicky91]

No you dont. well, i am reserving any judgement until we do find out.



and by the way marshall, do you see how each time i reply to you I dont need to make a sly dig to make my self feel better?

a concept

no you already seem to do that in the football thread, being anti Man United



but anyway on topic i still am backing my theory, that the mother could've been a workaholic, really stressed and exhausted and that is also how she ''forgot'' him

[Beso]

It wasnt to hot...78degree...maybe the mum thought the kid would be ok in the heat and is scrambling for an excuse.

[Marsh.]

It wasnt to hot...78degree...maybe the mum thought the kid would be ok in the heat and is scrambling for an excuse.

It would've been hotter inside of the car.

Another case in the article in Vicky's post, it was only early 60s but the child burned to death in 110+ inside the car.

-

Why would she leave the kid purposely in the car all day instead of dropping him at day care? There's absolutely no reason she would've done this on purpose.

[Nicky91]

maybe the car it was too hot, windows were probably closed, sun was shining on it fully

yes that makes it hotter than outside the car

[Beso]

It would've been hotter inside of the car.

Another case in the article in Vicky's post, it was only early 60s but the child burned to death in 110+ inside the car.

-

Why would she leave the kid purposely in the car all day instead of dropping him at day care? There's absolutely no reason she would've done this on purpose.

Cause shes a ****ing idiot.

[Marsh.]

Cause shes a ****ing idiot.

If she did it on purpose. Which nothing suggests that she did.

But wait.... she'd broken up with a partner so she was a *shudders* single mother. Capable of anything those creatures.

[Cherie]

It would've been hotter inside of the car.

Another case in the article in Vicky's post, it was only early 60s but the child burned to death in 110+ inside the car.

-

Why would she leave the kid purposely in the car all day instead of dropping him at day care? There's absolutely no reason she would've done this on purpose.

You never heard of infanticide.....


Recently a woman took her dead baby onto a bus in London and then starting shouting that she had stopped breathing....the poor mite had been killed by her Mum and Stepdad beforehand, its not like its unheard of....

[Cherie]

If she did it on purpose. Which nothing suggests that she did.

But wait.... she'd broken up with a partner so she was a *shudders* single mother. Capable of anything those creatures.

Again there have been many cases of kids being killed to get revenge on a partner...:shrug:

[Marsh.]

[/B]

You never heard of infanticide.....


Recently a woman took her dead baby onto a bus in London and then starting shouting that she had stopped breathing....the poor mite had been killed by her Mum and Stepdad beforehand, its not like its unheard of....

I never said it was unheard of?

But there is no suggestion she killed the child on purpose? So, until that time it's just been pulled out of thin air just because? Just like LT's suggestion that she was on loads of meds... apparently simply because she was single.

[Marsh.]

Again there have been many cases of kids being killed to get revenge on a partner...:shrug:

I don't recall saying there wasn't.

There's been all kinds of cases about anything and everything.

[The Slim Reaper]

What the **** are you waffling on about now?

First the emboldened:

What is your issue with me should be the question because you keep leaping in all confrontational but then shy away without answering once I take you on?

And look at that sig of yours where you have quoted me out of context - what is THAT all about?

You asked me a ludicrous question in a post: "Have you met any humans, Kirk?" and I answered you in the same fashion, yet for some idiotic reason known only to yourself, you chose to use my response in your sig.

Anyway, back to this from you:

What the hell do those quotes from the Gospels have to do with anything?
And as for:

"See how easy it is to point to "ancient wisdom" and use it as an excuse to wall yourself in and away from thinking?

You are a joker my old son. Where in my post does the use of a quote which is relevant to underscoring what I am saying in that post, justify you interpreting that I am 'walling myself in away from thinking'?

No one who knows me in 'real life' would accuse me of not being a 'thinker' and I am confident that - love me or hate me - no other member on here would accuse me of not being a thinker either.

To be honest, your post is just meaningless waffle based on your own misinterpretation and it really says NOTHING and adds NOTHING to this debate.

I have no problem with 'the study of the mind', but I do not believe that all conclusions hailing from such studies are infallible fact, and - as in all professions - there are good and bad 'experts' and quite a few appalling ones.

OK, let me go through these.

First off, I have no issue with you personally at all. I've never knowingly backed away from any post you've ever directed at me. If you have an example then I'll go back and reply. I do remember our Hilary Clinton discussion though where I asked for evidence of her corruption and you provided nothing. There is nothing confrontational about my post.

The quote in my sig is hilarious. If you are offended by it and would like me to remove it then say, and I'll happily do that for you. When adding a quote to your sig, then they are all without context because of the limited character numbers we are allowed to use. Anyone wishing to read the full context, is perfectly able to do so by just clicking the little grey arrow thingy and it will take you straight to our conversation, which I would highly recommend because I found it really funny.

Now onto the content of this thread. You quoted something Jesus was supposed to have said "In my opinion, and as far as psychologists and psychiatrists are concerned, a great number of them need to heed the advice of Jesus in Luke 4.23; 'Physician, heal thyself' because they are among the loopiest people in existence.

So I just replied with something else Jesus was supposed to have said, and with a little bit of extra scripture thrown in for good measure. I don't understand why you deem your quote to be fine, and mine a personal attack on your character.

You say you have no problem with the study of the mind, but you've undercut your argument somewhat by labelling them "amongst the loopiest people in existence" You've also demeaned their work in other posts in the thread, so it's a completely valid question, that, despite your protestations, I was justified in asking. I would also like to know what an appalling expert actually is, so I'd be interested in reading your follow up.

I think you're being a little over sensitive my good man, but if there's anything I can do to allay your paranoia, I'd be happy to do so.

[Nicky91]

I never said it was unheard of?

But there is no suggestion she killed the child on purpose? So, until that time it's just been pulled out of thin air just because? Just like LT's suggestion that she was on loads of meds... apparently simply because she was single.

not yet, no so we just have to wait with our judgement until we know more i guess

[Marsh.]

not yet, no so we just have to wait with our judgement until we know more i guess

TiBB doesn't wait.

[Cherie]

I never said it was unheard of?

But there is no suggestion she killed the child on purpose? So, until that time it's just been pulled out of thin air just because? Just like LT's suggestion that she was on loads of meds... apparently simply because she was single.

I don't recall saying there wasn't.

There's been all kinds of cases about anything and everything.

TiBB doesn't wait.

Its the rush to absolve her that is the issue here, it probably is a tragic case but could also be the perfect crime as so many people are willing to believe her version of events, in contrast the general consensus regarding the woman who left the baby in a car outside Asda is that she should be charged with neglect, what if she claims she forgot her baby was in the car, will people just shrug their shoulders and go...new mother yeah she probably forgot ...never mind....next time you are driving clock how many times you check your rear view mirrors and catch sight of the back seat, she shouldn't be on the road if she is just driving with her eyes on the road ahead which is another issue!

[Marsh.]

Its the rush to absolve her that is the issue here, it probably is a tragic case but could also be the perfect crime as so many people are willing to believe her version of events, in contrast the general consensus regarding the woman who left the baby in a car outside Asda is that she should be charged with neglect, what if she claims she forgot her baby was in the car, will people just shrug their shoulders and go...new mother yeah she probably forgot ...never mind....next time you are driving clock how many times you check your rear view mirrors and catch sight of the back seat, she shouldn't be on the road if she is just driving with her eyes on the road ahead which is another issue!

I don't think that's fair at all.

People aren't rushing to absolve her. They're painting it using the only information we have at the moment.

One or two posters jump on "omg SINGLE! MOTHER!" and have thrown drugs into the mix with no other information just because.

I'm not saying she can't have murdered her child, but based on what we know of the case, it doesn't quite make sense. If it's a genuine case, Vicky's linked article explains it in great detail.

With more information/evidence and/or if she's charged with anything then people can re-evaluate their feelings on the matter. I just don't agree with throwing every scenario at this woman based on the fact that a mistake she made resulted in possibly the worst ever consequences. It seems rather unnecessarily vindictive IMO.

Edit - As for the ASDA story comparison, the difference is major. She purposely left her child in the car with full knowledge. That's also the difference between a tragic mistake and a crime - intent. I'm sure the police conduct an investigation into both to ensure any foul play or genuine neglect is held accountable.

[Vicky.]

I don't think that's fair at all.

People aren't rushing to absolve her. They're painting it using the only information we have at the moment.

One or two posters jump on "omg SINGLE! MOTHER!" and have thrown drugs into the mix with no other information just because.

I'm not saying she can't have murdered her child, but based on what we know of the case, it doesn't quite make sense. If it's a genuine case, Vicky's linked article explains it in great detail.

With more information/evidence and/or if she's charged with anything then people can re-evaluate their feelings on the matter. I just don't agree with throwing every scenario at this woman based on the fact that a mistake she made resulted in possibly the worst ever consequences. It seems rather unnecessarily vindictive IMO.

Edit - As for the ASDA story comparison, the difference is major. She purposely left her child in the car with full knowledge. That's also the difference between a tragic mistake and a crime - intent. I'm sure the police conduct an investigation into both to ensure any foul play or genuine neglect is held accountable.

I'm not sure thats true, I think that bit of 'fake news' was my fault. I conflated other parts of the story, and seemed to mix up a few aspects in with the article I had read last night too, unless there has been more reporting since then,.

[Marsh.]

I'm not sure thats true, I think that bit of 'fake news' was my fault. I conflated other parts of the story, and seemed to mix up a few aspects in with the article I had read last night too, unless there has been more reporting since then,.

Bloody 'ell Vicky! Check yer sources love! :oh:

[Beso]

If she did it on purpose. Which nothing suggests that she did.

But wait.... she'd broken up with a partner so she was a *shudders* single mother. Capable of anything those creatures.

Yeah, like holding down a 40g a year job...paying a mortgage on a 2nd house whilst renting out the other to another single mum.

All the time keeping 2 intelligent, funny friendly kids in line as they have grown into 2 mature kids at the ages of 14 and 11.....just like my little sister has managed to do.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, like holding down a 40g a year job...paying a mortgage on a 2nd house whilst renting out the other to another single mum.

All the time keeping 2 intelligent, funny friendly kids in line as they have grown into 2 mature kids at the ages of 14 and 11.....just like my little sister has managed to do.

And not a drug in sight. :clap1:

[Beso]

And not a drug in sight. :clap1:


Wine saved the day.

[AnnieK]

Wine saved the day.

:laugh: wine has been my saviour on a couple of occasions too. Playing both mum and dad whilst working is a hard job

[Niamh.]

:love: [emoji23] wine has been my saviour on a couple of occasions too. Playing both mum and dad whilst working is a hard job

[bots]

In the days where the Mum stayed at home to look after the children, or the nanny etc, this just wouldn't have happened, and if it did, there would be a great deal more finger pointing.

These days, when there are single parent families struggling to pay the rent, stressed to the max, it's an accident waiting to happen. I am in no position to judge if someone was neglectful or not, but the environment now exists where it could either be a tragic accident or intentional. It's the environment that's wrong and needs fixing.

[Beso]

:laugh: wine has been my saviour on a couple of occasions too. Playing both mum and dad whilst working is a hard job

A very rewarding one as well i can imagine.:worship:

[AnnieK]

A very rewarding one as well i can imagine.:worship:

Of course Parmy....he's my world.....but wine helps at the end of a full days work, football practice, homework and dinner :laugh:

[Beso]

Of course Parmy....he's my world.....but wine helps at the end of a full days work, football practice, homework and dinner :laugh:


In a large glass perhaps!:laugh:

[kirklancaster]

OK, let me go through these.

First off, I have no issue with you personally at all. I've never knowingly backed away from any post you've ever directed at me. If you have an example then I'll go back and reply. I do remember our Hilary Clinton discussion though where I asked for evidence of her corruption and you provided nothing. There is nothing confrontational about my post.

The quote in my sig is hilarious. If you are offended by it and would like me to remove it then say, and I'll happily do that for you. When adding a quote to your sig, then they are all without context because of the limited character numbers we are allowed to use. Anyone wishing to read the full context, is perfectly able to do so by just clicking the little grey arrow thingy and it will take you straight to our conversation, which I would highly recommend because I found it really funny.

Now onto the content of this thread. You quoted something Jesus was supposed to have said

So I just replied with something else Jesus was supposed to have said, and with a little bit of extra scripture thrown in for good measure. I don't understand why you deem your quote to be fine, and mine a personal attack on your character.

You say you have no problem with the study of the mind, but you've undercut your argument somewhat by labelling them "amongst the loopiest people in existence" You've also demeaned their work in other posts in the thread, so it's a completely valid question, that, despite your protestations, I was justified in asking. I would also like to know what an appalling expert actually is, so I'd be interested in reading your follow up.

I think you're being a little over sensitive my good man, but if there's anything I can do to allay your paranoia, I'd be happy to do so.

No need for the smart-Alec 'paranoia B.S. I'm not paranoid and you are not qualified to allay jack if I was.

As for the emboldened, I think you are being a little economical with the truth because once again you are misinterpreting and misrepresenting what I ACTUALLY stated;

Nowhere did I 'label THEM as "amongst the loopiest people in existence" as you UNTRUTHFULLY claim, I actually wrote: "In my opinion, and as far as psychologists and psychiatrists are concerned, a great number of them need to heed the advice of Jesus in Luke 4.23; 'Physician, heal thyself' because they are among the loopiest people in existence.

Now, "a great number of them" is a FAR cry from stating ALL of them - got it, my good man? Good.

As for; "You've also demeaned THEIR work in other posts in the thread" this is rather vague - could you show me where this occurred? And by the term 'their' are you referring to ALL psychiatrists and Psychologists? Or 'some ' ?

[GoldHeart]

Well I have kids and I assure you I have never forgot I had them,to leave him for a whole day !!! nah,not buying that, she may not have meant to harm him but something isn't right.

This is horrific poor innocent child, I agree there's no way she could of forgotten her baby for so long :shocked: . This is the worst case of neglect .

She is either incompetent & stupid or has mental issues. There's people out there who would do anything to have kids , so it's truly sad to hear tragic stories like this

[kirklancaster]

Having read up and researched the psychological explanations for this -after T.S's informative posts - and I admit that a combination of factors such as stress, sleep deprivation, an adverse emotional condition, and financial worries CAN cause this type of memory loss.

I accept that, but I am still left with questions which need answering and I cannot find any further details on this case despite extensively trying, so I am presuming below until further details do become available:

1) One would presume that the baby was in a baby seat in the back seats of the car.

2) One would also presume that upon arrival at the baby's nursery the mother would have to go through a routine of stopping the car and parking up, alighting from the driver's seat and going to the relevant rear passenger door, opening it,then spending a certain amount of time unfastening the baby seat and - dependent upon what type of baby seat is was - carry the baby or baby and seat, into the nursery, probably greeting and/or being greeted, by other people, before finally booking the baby in.

Now, if the baby seat is the type where the seat and the baby are removed and carried away, the back seats will be 'bare', if it was the type where only the baby is removed then the baby seat will still be in situ.

All in 2 above, is a relatively complex and lengthy ritual to be performed - a routine which has various possible 'memory joggers' if it HAS been performed and one which would surely be 'conspicuous by its absence' in one's memory if it has NOT just been performed.

It is not, after all, as simple as saying: "I forgot that I had not dropped the baby off." Or to be more exact in this case; "I THOUGHT I had dropped the baby off"

3) Anyway, with all the above done, the mother would have to walk out of the nursery, return to the car, unlock it and get into the driver's seat, buckle up her seat belt and drive away - again not a simple process in the context of this case.

4) Now, dependent upon what type of car it is, one would presume that every time the mother used her interior driving mirror SOME PART of the baby in its seat WOULD have been visible - would THIS fact NOT be another 'memory-jogger'?

5) I still cannot accept either, that ANY loving mother of a 3 months old baby could spend hours without thinking about her child - no matter what psychological pressures she was suffering from.

I'm sorry, but something within me won't accept that this tragic case is as simple as it is being made out to be and though I will cede that the mind is, indeed a very complex and fragile organ, this still does not sit right with me.

Perhaps time and the revealing of more details will tell.

[Ashley.]

But the baby itself didn't slip her mind, unless I've missed the part where she forgot giving birth.

She forgot the child hadn't been dropped off at his day care.

And that is what puzzles me. Surely that's quite a significant part of the day. It puzzles me how she couldn't remember not stopping at the daycare centre, not taking her child out of the car, not registering him or speaking to the staff. I don't feel like that sort of thing would slip the mind of someone who is in the right frame of mind to be a mother... that's just how I feel.

[bots]

any time i have ever forgotten something i've had an oh **** moment not long after. There is always a little trigger that makes you remember .... always. I can't imagine that being a long time at all with a new born baby, something that normal people would be thinking about sub-consciously almost constantly. It doesn't point categorically to intent, but it does raise serious flags

[user104658]

I do understand your skepticism Kirk but the fact is, humans are capable of carrying out a LOT of seemingly complex tasks with very little active conscious input. Have you not ever driven a familiar journey and then realised you can remember very little of that specific journey? Driving is in theory a relatively complex task - you're doing all sorts of things, constantly, checking for traffic, overtaking, avoiding pedestrians etc. but if you were to arrive somewhere and someone said, "half way through that journey at the Driverton roundabout, did you have to stop and let vehicles pass or did you manage to drive straight on?" most likely you would have NO idea.

Or a more dramatic yet very common example (my wife does this ALL the time); we all get in the car and head off to let's say the supermarket. 10 minutes into the drive, she realises she's driven us half way to her University instead, completely "on autopilot". No memory of taking the wrong turns or why we're there. And yet, she hasn't crashed the car or run a red light or hit a pedestrian so there are all sorts of complex decisions going on, but without any actual ACTIVE cognition at all.

Or all sorts of small examples I guess. Finding the milk you just bought on the hall table and then realising your keys and wallet are in the fridge. You took those keys out of your pocket, and put them there. In the fridge. You don't remember doing it, but there they are.

A specific example for me; I can manually settle fairly complex bets in my sleep. I can settle a bet for someone, manually searching the results, calculating rule 4's, whatever... Pay them out... Half an hour later that same person can query the payout and I'll be like "which bet?" and they'll say "why do you mean? The one you did for me half an hour ago..." and I straight up half the time don't remember that I've even SEEN that customer that day, let alone that I've settled their bet. I can "coast" a 10 hour shift with basically zero conscious input.

Basically the human mind is a complete shambles and most people are FAR from totally conscious a lot of the time.

Again that doesn't mean that it's impossible that someone might fake this to deliberately harm a child, certainly that's possible, but it's also genuinely a real thing and in most cases it is a tragic accident. I said earlier, it doesn't mean the circumstances shouldn't be looked at incase there IS a reason to suspect foul play, but in the first instance, it should be assumed that it was an accident and the parent supported for trauma. If its determined that it was deliberate later, then that's another matter. But this is the sort of situation where innocence should always be assumed until proven otherwise.

[Crimson Dynamo]

And that is what puzzles me. Surely that's quite a significant part of the day. It puzzles me how she couldn't remember not stopping at the daycare centre, not taking her child out of the car, not registering him or speaking to the staff. I don't feel like that sort of thing would slip the mind of someone who is in the right frame of mind to be a mother... that's just how I feel.

Its not just you Ashley

I think many think this way

[user104658]

And that is what puzzles me. Surely that's quite a significant part of the day. It puzzles me how she couldn't remember not stopping at the daycare centre, not taking her child out of the car, not registering him or speaking to the staff. I don't feel like that sort of thing would slip the mind of someone who is in the right frame of mind to be a mother... that's just how I feel.

See I think this is why it happens so much more in the US and why people struggle to understand. Most US maternity laws are absolutely shocking. New mothers are expected to be back at work full time within a matter of WEEKS, when they are sleep deprived, stressed and exhausted. There is no support net, and simply no way that most are anywhere near ready to be doing so. Simply put, they are NOT in a good frame of mind, as they are not ready to be working at all let alone working and caring for a new baby at the same time, but have been given very little choice.

It would happen FAR, FAR less often if the US had proper paid maternity leave like pretty much every other civilised country. It would happen less still if new fathers were given half decent parental leave, too, but hardly any countries offer that yet.

[smudgie]

Perhaps she went onto auto pilot of her old routine.
Dropped the eldest child off at childcare and then went straight to work, as she would have done many many times before having the baby.
Perhaps the new baby had just started at their nursery/childcare and it totally skipped her mind.
Hopefully this case can be proven beyond doubt either way, so many different scenarios to consider.
Tragic. :sad:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Perhaps she went onto auto pilot of her old routine.
Dropped the eldest child off at childcare and then went straight to work, as she would have done many many times before having the baby.
Perhaps the new baby had just started at their nursery/childcare and it totally skipped her mind.
Hopefully this case can be proven beyond doubt either way, so many different scenarios to consider.
Tragic. :sad:

Are there any other excuses?

Did the mccans get them too?

[Marsh.]

And that is what puzzles me. Surely that's quite a significant part of the day. It puzzles me how she couldn't remember not stopping at the daycare centre, not taking her child out of the car, not registering him or speaking to the staff. I don't feel like that sort of thing would slip the mind of someone who is in the right frame of mind to be a mother... that's just how I feel.

Well, that's why it's tragic and must be a combination of factors involved.

In one of the examples in that article, the mother's daily routine was changed last minute and she had to drop off her husband at work in a car she doesn't normally drive. Dropped her husband off and somewhere in her mind her daily "drop off" had been made.

[Marsh.]

any time i have ever forgotten something i've had an oh **** moment not long after. There is always a little trigger that makes you remember .... always. I can't imagine that being a long time at all with a new born baby, something that normal people would be thinking about sub-consciously almost constantly. It doesn't point categorically to intent, but it does raise serious flags

But, again, it's not about forgetting. They all remember the baby, but mistakenly think they are with other people/elsewhere.

[Marsh.]

Perhaps she went onto auto pilot of her old routine.
Dropped the eldest child off at childcare and then went straight to work, as she would have done many many times before having the baby.
Perhaps the new baby had just started at their nursery/childcare and it totally skipped her mind.
Hopefully this case can be proven beyond doubt either way, so many different scenarios to consider.
Tragic. :sad:

That's it. So many factors involved, it's a much more complex situation than it first appears.

[Marsh.]

Are there any other excuses?

Did the mccans get them too?

The McCann's intentionally left their children alone in a foreign country. No excuses and a little bit late for Kate to say she forgot about them.

But it's funny how you defend a case where the parent made an INTENTIONAL CHOICE, but completely go against a woman who made a tragic mistake on the basis that she's single and probably on drugs.

[AnnieK]

The McCann's intentionally left their children alone in a foreign country. No excuses and a little bit late for Kate to say she forgot about them.

But it's funny how you defend a case where the parent made an INTENTIONAL CHOICE, but completely go against a woman who made a tragic mistake on the basis that she's single and probably on drugs.

See this is where I dont get LTs stance.....he will vehemently defend the mccanns who admit leaving 3 young children under the age of 4 alone in an apartment, admitting that maddie woke the.night before crying and asking where they were, to go to eat, drink and socialise. Was kate taking strong painkillers too....or was she fully compus mentus when she made that decision to woefully neglect her children? Most people will answer that as we know from kate and gerrys own testimony that they were of sound mind when they left their children. However, we have one report from this but LT is surmising drugs?? At least wait for more testimony before castigating and casting your big stereotypical net because this woman was a single parent

[Marsh.]

See this is where I dont get LTs stance.....he will vehemently defend the mccanns who admit leaving 3 young children under the age of 4 alone in an apartment, admitting that maddie woke the.night before crying and asking where they were, to go to eat, drink and socialise. Was kate taking strong painkillers too....or was she fully compus mentus when she made that decision to woefully neglect her children? Most people will answer that as we know from kate and gerrys own testimony that they were of sound mind when they left their children. However, we have one report from this but LT is surmising drugs?? At least wait for more testimony before castigating and casting your big stereotypical net because this woman was a single parent

Yep, if anything the McCann's were drugging the children.

[user104658]

I actually would feel bad for the McCanns even with the basics of (what I believe) happened, if they had simply owned that. That is, we know they deliberately left them, I believe they possibly sedated her, and I believe she died in an accident while they were out. If they had come home and discovered that - even though it would be their fault - I would still have full sympathy for their tragedy.

My problem with the McCanns is that I personally 100% believe they found her dead, disposed of her body, and covered up (and are still covering up) what really happened. I don't believe they should have been, then or now, legally punished for her death despite it being a terrible mistake to leave her alone. I *do* believe that they should be punished for deception, fraud, and perverting the course of justice.

Its not comparable to this situation. It would only be comparable if the mother had found the baby in the car, but instead of raising the alarm, she had gotten rid of the evidence and claimed that the baby was abducted.

[Maru]

See I think this is why it happens so much more in the US and why people struggle to understand. Most US maternity laws are absolutely shocking. New mothers are expected to be back at work full time within a matter of WEEKS, when they are sleep deprived, stressed and exhausted. There is no support net, and simply no way that most are anywhere near ready to be doing so. Simply put, they are NOT in a good frame of mind, as they are not ready to be working at all let alone working and caring for a new baby at the same time, but have been given very little choice.

It would happen FAR, FAR less often if the US had proper paid maternity leave like pretty much every other civilised country. It would happen less still if new fathers were given half decent parental leave, too, but hardly any countries offer that yet.

29 cases so far in a country of 300+ million, not quite an epidemic. We are not a socialist country in the sense much of Europe is (I guess?). I don't think our current tax code, much less the structure of our govt, could support that type of socialism... unless employers are expected to cover, in which case, good luck. We have a mixed system, crony capitalism, not quite full capitalist... which is part of why we don't have the benefits of either.

Personally, I would want less socialism, not more. I work at home, which would help with child-rearing. Having lower taxes helps a lot with everything for us, so while certain statistics may not compare (it's not a competition...), we benefit in other ways that at least with the people I speak with, it is worth it.

I don't hear about mothers having to complain. We are family oriented in the south, so most ppl have family who help each other. It is actually amazing how people manage to make it work... the other thought, what would ppl do if there was a hit to the economy and the safety net goes.. I just don't agree more socialism is always the answer and I do feel like more and more, that is increasingly the default answer.

I think there are a variety of reasons anyone can become scatterbrained, but there comes a point you know your limits and what you can't/can handle.... but again, none of this speculation really matters in the long-run as we don't have the details, just the general bits. So to assume there is always some easy fix available or we should increase this social program.. I think just a tendency for ppl to force their own emotional projections and wanting easy solutions to all problems... which wouldn't apply here anyway bc we have a completely different system.

Accidents will occur. It doesn't mean it is always preventable.

What kirk said about the rear view mirror, having the child in view as a reminder... I've done a lot of caretaking and I can't take my eyes off of someone for too long who I am looking after, for example my grandmothers rehab... she had a lot that needed to be managed and with kids, I wouldnt want them out of my sight... so I don't agree with scatterbrain it is so simple, just add more maternity leave... if someone is a physician or careworker looking after someone not in the condition to emotionally or physically able to show full autonomy, then socialism goes out the window.. accidents happen, but they have procedures to prevent to an extent any major problems as long as this is followed. The same goes if you are a caretaker or parent. So that person has to adopt a different mentality, that that person is completely and entirely depedent on you not to fail...

[Ammi]

Its the rush to absolve her that is the issue here, it probably is a tragic case but could also be the perfect crime as so many people are willing to believe her version of events, in contrast the general consensus regarding the woman who left the baby in a car outside Asda is that she should be charged with neglect, what if she claims she forgot her baby was in the car, will people just shrug their shoulders and go...new mother yeah she probably forgot ...never mind....next time you are driving clock how many times you check your rear view mirrors and catch sight of the back seat, she shouldn't be on the road if she is just driving with her eyes on the road ahead which is another issue!

...for me Cherie..it’s not about absolving anyone of anything and especially something like this...it’s more that these memory/thought connection glitches are possible in my opinion...even for a whole day...and until I know anything other that would lead to something being more purposeful...?...it’s something I’d rather look at or think of, because the alternatives are so abhorrent and so unthinkable, you know...if and when there was any proof otherwise, it’s obviously something I would have to accept and would hope was legally punished to the maximum...but accepting it now with only what we know in being reported...is actually quite hard for me, I have to be honest....not only that a parent is capable of killing a child which we all know to be true...but in such a way of that death in the baby being left in a car in baking heat all day...


...yeah the numbers could be rising with cases like this because it’s being seen as a ‘perfect crime’, that’s a possibility also...but it’s hard to think of that kind of evil without any proof of it being so for me...acceptance isn’t hard with that proof but I find it hard without it though...

[Maru]

The police are actively investigating it, so I don't think there is a rush to absolve. A perfect crime in my understanding is when evidence of guilt can't be ascertained whether an investigation occurs or not, i.e. will likely be dismissed... not whether us randoms on the internet decide to raise a pitch fork or not?

Maybe it could be said some here are giving her a "pass"..., I guess?... but I don't feel the default for me could be for me to raise a pitchfork either. I don't assume the innocence or guilt of anyone as a casual newsreader... after all, we are only skimming the surface, we don't really know any of the key details... aside from the reporting of what was believed to have happened..

[Kizzy]

29 cases so far in a country of 300+ million, not quite an epidemic. We are not a socialist country in the sense much of Europe is (I guess?). I don't think our current tax code, much less the structure of our govt, could support that type of socialism... unless employers are expected to cover, in which case, good luck. We have a mixed system, crony capitalism, not quite full capitalist... which is part of why we don't have the benefits of either.

Personally, I would want less socialism, not more. I work at home, which would help with child-rearing. Having lower taxes helps a lot with everything for us, so while certain statistics may not compare (it's not a competition...), we benefit in other ways that at least with the people I speak with, it is worth it.

I don't hear about mothers having to complain. We are family oriented in the south, so most ppl have family who help each other. It is actually amazing how people manage to make it work... the other thought, what would ppl do if there was a hit to the economy and the safety net goes.. I just don't agree more socialism is always the answer and I do feel like more and more, that is increasingly the default answer.

I think there are a variety of reasons anyone can become scatterbrained, but there comes a point you know your limits and what you can't/can handle.... but again, none of this speculation really matters in the long-run as we don't have the details, just the general bits. So to assume there is always some easy fix available or we should increase this social program.. I think just a tendency for ppl to force their own emotional projections and wanting easy solutions to all problems... which wouldn't apply here anyway bc we have a completely different system.

Accidents will occur. It doesn't mean it is always preventable.

What kirk said about the rear view mirror, having the child in view as a reminder... I've done a lot of caretaking and I can't take my eyes off of someone for too long who I am looking after, for example my grandmothers rehab... she had a lot that needed to be managed and with kids, I wouldnt want them out of my sight... so I don't agree with scatterbrain it is so simple, just add more maternity leave... if someone is a physician or careworker looking after someone not in the condition to emotionally or physically able to show full autonomy, then socialism goes out the window.. accidents happen, but they have procedures to prevent to an extent any major problems as long as this is followed. The same goes if you are a caretaker or parent. So that person has to adopt a different mentality, that that person is completely and entirely depedent on you not to fail...

I'm alright jack...

What an excellent idea lets all work from home... by the way your house just burned down because the firefighter is working from home today.

You also seem to be discounting post natal depression here too, which is in some cases far, far worse than being 'scatterbrained' It's terrifying.
I don't know the stats for kids injured or killed due to PND in the US but I would wager it's higher than 29.

Would your 'less socialism' improve on that or not?

[kirklancaster]

I'm alright jack...

What an excellent idea lets all work from home... by the way your house just burned down because the firefighter is working from home today.

You also seem to be discounting post natal depression here too, which is in some cases far, far worse than being 'scatterbrained' It's terrifying.
I don't know the stats for kids injured or killed due to PND in the US but I would wager it's higher than 29.

Would your 'less socialism' improve on that or not?

I think that Maru's specific use of the word "personally" makes it abundantly clear that she is speaking from a purely personal perspective - which makes your sarcasm redundant.

I think her post is quite intelligently written and the points which she makes in it are all valid.