NHS TRANS ROW as MEN get access to WOMAN'S wards if they identify as female

[Livia]

I know, I miss her around here :bawling:

Me too... Say hi for me if you speak to her, please x

[Niamh.]

Me too... Say hi for me if you speak to her, please x

She still posts on FB abit

[Livia]

She still posts on FB abit

Tell her to get her arse back here pdq. She's needed.

[Niamh.]

Tell her to get her arse back here pdq. She's needed.

ha will do :laugh:

[user104658]

Oh yes, Vicky's copy-and-pasted Mumsnet ramblings are exactly what's needed to turn this thread into solid gold.

Honestly I like Vicky a lot in literally 99% of threads but when it comes to Trans issues we might as well ask on AboveTopSecret, because she was in "Taxi Driver" territory.

https://am13.akamaized.net/med/cnt/uploads/2016/08/travis-bickle-300x197.jpg

[Niamh.]

That's not very fair TS just because you disagree with her opinions on it, she knew alot more about it than most on here

[thesheriff443]

Most people in hospital wards, I think I'm fright in saying, will be older people, the elderly and frail. **** them, eh? What do they matter.

No penises on female only wards. The only exception should be, in my opinion, is for transwomen who are in the process but have not yet had surgery.

A woman could attack you with a fake penis wich is more re likely to happen then a trans person doing the same.

And wot if a woman has got a cucumber in her over night bag?

My post are getting rediculus just like the argument that trans are running around hospital wards commiting sex crimes.

[Niamh.]

A woman could attack you with a fake penis wich is more re likely to happen then a trans person doing the same.

And wot if a woman has got a cucumber in her over night bag?

My post are getting rediculus just like the argument that trans are running around hospital wards commiting sex crimes.

Who made this argument?

[user104658]

That's not very fair TS just because you disagree with her opinions on it, she knew alot more about it than most on here

She did, because she (self-admittedly) spent hours reading about it on Mumsnet, where they have themselves whipped up into such a flurry on these issues that they are blown wildly out of all proportion. If you actually look at forums like AboveTopSecret, it's not that the members aren't knowledgeable, there are VAST amounts of knowledge on there and much of it is fascinating. But then they start getting angry about contrails and lizard people.

Vicky's knowledge on the subject of trans issues was completely overwhelmed by her own personal feelings on the subject.

[bots]

She did, because she (self-admittedly) spent hours reading about it on Mumsnet, where they have themselves whipped up into such a flurry on these issues that they are blown wildly out of all proportion. If you actually look at forums like AboveTopSecret, it's not that the members aren't knowledgeable, there are VAST amounts of knowledge on there and much of it is fascinating. But then they start getting angry about contrails and lizard people.

Vicky's knowledge on the subject of trans issues was completely overwhelmed by her own personal feelings on the subject.

I think you are wrong there TS. As with anyone Vicky's opinions are formed by knowledge of a topic, not the other way round, and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous

[Niamh.]

She did, because she (self-admittedly) spent hours reading about it on Mumsnet, where they have themselves whipped up into such a flurry on these issues that they are blown wildly out of all proportion. If you actually look at forums like AboveTopSecret, it's not that the members aren't knowledgeable, there are VAST amounts of knowledge on there and much of it is fascinating. But then they start getting angry about contrails and lizard people.

Vicky's knowledge on the subject of trans issues was completely overwhelmed by her own personal feelings on the subject.

I do think Mumsnet can be a bit of a hostile environment, I found myself reading alot of stuff there for a period of time but I did have to step away from it. I agree too much of one subject can make you a bit obsessive but I do appreciate her knowledge on it aswell because I wouldn't like to see this (self IDing I mean) be abused by people who are not even trans. It's naive to think that wouldn't happen imo (again not really hospitals just Self IDing in general)

[Withano]

That's not very fair TS just because you disagree with her opinions on it, she knew alot more about it than most on here

No she didn’t! She just spoke more about it than most.

I do want her back in threads of other topics though.

[Niamh.]

No she didn’t! She just spoke more about it than most.

I do want her back in threads of other topics though.

Yeah she did

[Withano]

Yeah she did

She could never even grasp the concept of gender

[Niamh.]

She could never even grasp the concept of gender

She disagreed with you, you mean? Anyway I'm not going to argue you with you about Vicky when she's not here to defend herself, it's not very fair on her

[Withano]

She disagreed with you, you mean? Anyway I'm not going to argue you with you about Vicky when she's not here to defend herself, it's not very fair on her

Well I could say the same for you in that.. she agreed with you, you mean!

But the 2nd half of your post is true so

[Niamh.]

Well I could say the same for you in that.. she agreed with you, you mean!

But the 2nd half of your post is true so

Well you could say that but defining gender is only one part of what I meant in the post of mine you quoted anyway.

[Withano]

Well you could say that but defining gender is only one part of what I meant in the post of mine you quoted anyway.

Yeh, but it is the very basic part which makes sense of the entire topic.

[Niamh.]

Yeh, but it is the very basic part which makes sense of the entire topic.

Not when you're talking about Self IDing and changing laws I don't think.

ETA. Which is a big part of what I meant when i said what i did about Vicky. And whether or not you agree with her opinions on what gender is or isn't, alot of the information she brought with her (and what I was mostly referring to were just factual based, no opinions)

[Withano]

Not when you're talking about Self IDing and changing laws I don't think.

ETA. Which is a big part of what I meant when i said what i did about Vicky. And whether or not you agree with her opinions on what gender is or isn't, alot of the information she brought with her (and what I was mostly referring to were just factual based, no opinions)

I was talking about the trans topic in general, and I think you was talking about something specific the entire time which probs made our convo hard to follow.

[Niamh.]

I was talking about the trans topic in general, and I think you was talking about something specific the entire time which probs made our convo hard to follow.

:thumbs:

[Livia]

She could never even grasp the concept of gender

She disagreed with you, you mean...?

LOL...

Isn't it funny that it seems like it's only men on this forum who know about gender and assume everyone else is ignorant.

[Livia]

Worth a read... and I feel like the author has been nowhere near Mumsnet.

Trans rights will be durable only if campaigners respect women's concerns.
Women opposed to the trans agenda are informed by their experience of misogyny, not by bigotry, writes Kristina Harrison, a political campaigner

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/13/trans-rights-will-be-durable-only-if-campaigners-respect-womens-concerns

[thesheriff443]

Who made this argument?

Those that are worried about being attacked by a trans person in a hospital.

[thesheriff443]

LOL...

Isn't it funny that it seems like it's only men on this forum who know about gender and assume everyone else is ignorant.

Like you don’t think all men think with their cocks.

And if you have a cock you dont care about a woman’s safety

[Withano]

Like you don’t think all men think with their cocks.

And if you have a cock you dont care about a woman’s safety

I wouldnt point out Liv’s hypocrisy, she doesn’t like that too much. You’re in for it, rip.

[thesheriff443]

I wouldnt point out Liv’s hypocrisy, she doesn’t like that too much. You’re in for it, rip.

She is afraid of the unknown.

She said she got a gay male friend, so she is not the devil, just his helper.

[Niamh.]

Those that are worried about being attacked by a trans person in a hospital.

Like who?

[Cherie]

No she didn’t! She just spoke more about it than most.

I do want her back in threads of other topics though.



so because you don't agree with her views she is not welcome in this thread?

[thesheriff443]

Like who?

Cherie for one, unless she back tracks, Livia is living in fear of a trans men to women.

[Niamh.]

Cherie for one, unless she back tracks, Livia is living in fear that f a trans men to women.

I don't think I saw Cherie say anywhere in this thread that she's afraid Trans people will attack her......but maybe I missed that post?

[Cherie]

Worth a read... and I feel like the author has been nowhere near Mumsnet.

Trans rights will be durable only if campaigners respect women's concerns.
Women opposed to the trans agenda are informed by their experience of misogyny, not by bigotry, writes Kristina Harrison, a political campaigner

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/13/trans-rights-will-be-durable-only-if-campaigners-respect-womens-concerns

What a great article :clap1: and by a trans woman

also quoting the equality act 2010 which has been completely ignored by the men in this thread

Women are concerned with their own protections from abuse, violence, discrimination and their right to single-sex provision enshrined in the Equality Act (2010

[Withano]

[/B]

so because you don't agree with her views she is not welcome in this thread?

I don’t want half the people on this thread to be on this thread tbf. I’m sure most people here feel the same (but with different people in mind).

[Cherie]

Cherie for one, unless she back tracks, Livia is living in fear of a trans men to women.

do pull up that post if you can use the quote feature, I would love to see it myself given I have written nothing of the sort....I will be waiting for you to do this or issue an apology

[The Slim Reaper]

Anybody know where I can hire a trans person to attack Cherie?

[Cherie]

I don’t want half the people on this thread to be on this thread tbf. I’m sure most people here feel the same (but with different people in mind).

So you deny people a voice because you don't like what they are saying, howe very inclusive and tolerant of you

[Niamh.]

Anybody know where I can hire a trans person to attack Cherie?

:laugh:

[Withano]

So you deny people a voice because you don't like what they are saying, howe very inclusive and tolerant of you

You’re reading a lot of this with your angry eyes switched on. Take a breather.

[Cherie]

This goes against your point more than it proves it; it's highly likely that she was assaulted by a member of staff. So as I said above, the issue (when there is one) is general overall security and not which patients are or aren't admitted to the ward.

If the wards are open and properly monitored then no one can assault anyone, whether they be male, female, trans, patient, staff or visitor.

You have no idea who she was assaulted by so you are just presuming

[thesheriff443]

Anybody know where I can hire a trans person to attack Cherie?

Well the biggest problem is that one day a man says I want to be a trans man.

So he must be a pervert after a chance to get her into a hospital bed

[Cherie]

You’re reading a lot of this with your angry eyes switched on. Take a breather.

I suggest that it is you who needs to back out as you can't handle alternate views

[Cherie]

Well the biggest problem is that one day a man says I want to be a trans man.

So he must be a pervert after a chance to get her into a hospital bed

I'm waiting for you to pull up that post you claim I have written

[Cherie]

Anybody know where I can hire a trans person to attack Cherie?


:oh:

[Niamh.]

Well the biggest problem is that one day a man says I want to be a trans man.

So he must be a pervert after a chance to get her into a hospital bed

a man saying he wants to be a trans man would be uncommon I'd imagine

[Withano]

I suggest that it is you who needs to back out as you can't handle alternate views

Thats not at all true, I’m not even invested enough in this thread to care about specific views. Actually, I knew everybodys views before I even entered the thread because this exact topic exists in about 50 different threads. Same argument, same arguers.

[ethanjames]

a man saying he wants to be a trans man would be uncommon I'd imagine

:joker: think u mean trans woman sheriff

[Cherie]

Thats not at all true, I’m not even invested enough in this thread to care about specific views. Actually, I knew everybodys views before I even entered the thread because this exact topic exists in about 50 different threads. Same argument, same arguers.

If you have no interest in the thread, back out, its very easy, but don't suggest what other forum members should do in your baity voice

[Withano]

If you have no interest in the thread, back out, its very easy, but don't suggest what other forum members should do in your baity voice

You are literally doing exactly what you are telling me not to do, whereas I have never done what you are telling me what not to do.

Seriously, take a breather.

[Cherie]

You are literally doing exactly what you are telling me not to do, whereas I have never done what you have told me what not to do.

Seriously, take a breather.

No I am not I never suggested you take a breather, I suggested if you are not interested back out, two different things. Honestly all those masters are going to waste

[Niamh.]

Thats not at all true, I’m not even invested enough in this thread to care about specific views. Actually, I knew everybodys views before I even entered the thread because this exact topic exists in about 50 different threads. Same argument, same arguers.

The article Livia posted Withano is very good though if you do get a chance to read it. I think people are being jumped on for voicing any concerns and labelled as bigots for daring to speak when mostly it's not coming from a place of intolerance at all. Even in here a narrative has been written that Cherie is afraid of being attacked by trans women in hospital beds when she said nothing of the kind

[Withano]

No I am not I never suggested you take a breather, I suggested if you are not interested back out, two different things. Honestly all those masters are going to waste

Oh true I did say that... twice i think. its a good advice for you to take rn. It seems like you’re getting agitated a little too easily is all.

[Cherie]

Oh true I did say that... twice i think. its a good advice for you to take rn. It seems like you’re getting agitated a little too easily is all.

Are you missing Brillo, got no one to pounce on...what a shame :pat:

[Withano]

Are you missing Brillo, got no one to pounce on...what a shame :pat:

I’d swap her in for you, at least she made it interesting.

[Cherie]

I’d swap her in for you, at least she made it interesting.

now who is agitated :joker:

[Withano]

...still you...

[Cherie]

Anyway back to the point, has anyone bothered to read the article Livia posted?

[Niamh.]

Ok stop bickering and get back on topic :oh:

[Cherie]

Worth a read... and I feel like the author has been nowhere near Mumsnet.

Trans rights will be durable only if campaigners respect women's concerns.
Women opposed to the trans agenda are informed by their experience of misogyny, not by bigotry, writes Kristina Harrison, a political campaigner

https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/13/trans-rights-will-be-durable-only-if-campaigners-respect-womens-concerns

posting this again for those who can't read back

[Cherie]

Ok stop bickering and get back on topic :oh:

Yes Miss

[ethanjames]

have it saved ill read it in a bit!

[Cherie]

have it saved ill read it in a bit!

:thumbs:

[Withano]

Stopped reading the article pretty early because of the context of this thread

The argument in this thread is that a rapist might think to themselves one day ‘oh how I want to sexaully assault somebody but how will i ever... unless, i pretend to identify as a woman, and I pretend to be sick, i get myself into an all womans ward and bingo. Nobody will even check on me and my victims for weeks probably, its not like they have busy 24 hour staff and a wide open door’.... instead of the same bloke realising he could assault a woman in minutes if he wanted to, there are several private places without cameras in any town right now and you wouldnt have to sign in with your nhs number to get there

The argument is stupid

[Withano]

Also the same people seem very fine with mixed sexes wards, as in say 5 men and 5 women, but **** off will we have 9 women and 1 transwoman!

Something tells me nobody was really ever talking about the article.

[user104658]

The article (and a sound argument) is that things are going to be difficult for transwomen if they don't work alongside women to alleviate women's irrational fears about what will happen to them / their rights if they accept trans.

The argument on this thread is that those fears are not irrational, but realistic.

:shrug:

[Cherie]

Not interested in the thread, knows everyone views, but comes in to ensure the label bigot gets an airing …..now who is predictable.

[Withano]

Not interested in the thread, knows everyone views, but comes in to ensure the label bigot gets an airing …..now who is predictable.

Just took a quick glance over your 74 posts (more than double anybody else) not one seemed productive, its just arguments and baits. Look closer inward maybe.

[Niamh.]

Stopped reading the article pretty early because of the context of this thread

The argument in this thread is that a rapist might think to themselves one day ‘oh how I want to sexaully assault somebody but how will i ever... unless, i pretend to identify as a woman, and I pretend to be sick, i get myself into an all womans ward and bingo. Nobody will even check on me and my victims for weeks probably, its not like they have busy 24 hour staff and a wide open door’.... instead of the same bloke realising he could assault a woman in minutes if he wanted to, there are several private places without cameras in any town right now and you wouldnt have to sign in with your nhs number to get there

The argument is stupid

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?

*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?

[Niamh.]

The article (and a sound argument) is that things are going to be difficult for transwomen if they don't work alongside women to alleviate women's irrational fears about what will happen to them / their rights if they accept trans.

The argument on this thread is that those fears are not irrational, but realistic.

:shrug:

crazy hysterical women eh?

[Withano]

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?

*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?

Off the top of my head, Livia.

What exactly is the issue with Self-IDing for you Niamh? If we were to allow it for every case in every place, what would your issue with that be?

[Niamh.]

The article (and a sound argument) is that things are going to be difficult for transwomen if they don't work alongside women to alleviate women's irrational fears about what will happen to them / their rights if they accept trans.

The argument on this thread is that those fears are not irrational, but realistic.

:shrug:

Also, I don't think the author was saying that womens fears are irrational at all considering she says :

I am horrified by the number of trans women threatening extreme, misogynistic violence. I see, almost daily, violent threats on social media aimed at women demonised as TERFs (trans-exclusionary radical feminists). Last September a 60-year-old woman in London was punched by a six-foot-tall trans woman (pictured above) more than three decades younger. The woman, Maria MacLachlan, was there simply to attend a meeting to discuss the self-identification proposals. An art exhibition in April in San Francisco featured T-shirts printed with “I punch TERFs” and smeared with fake blood, and baseball bats, axes and sledgehammers painted in the colours of the trans flag. (These exhibits were removed after protests.) By contrast, I’ve yet to see one instance of women threatening to physically attack trans people. It raises a question: is the biological and socialised sex of trans women relevant and more predictive of some individuals’ behaviour than gender identity

[Niamh.]

Off the top of my head, Livia.

What exactly is the issue with Self-IDing for you Niamh? If we were to allow it for every case in every place, what would your issue with that be?

Well mainly prisons really, also in sports

[Marsh.]

hi! a lot of people in this thread are speaking on my behalf as a trans ftm person who is pre op (though i have been on testosterone for a few months now!) and though i cannot speak for all trans people i would feel much more comfortable in a male ward than a female since that is what i identify as. most wards are mixed though from what i can remember so i don't quite see the issue here... but if there has to be gendered wards i think that if the person has some sort of proof they identify as that gender whether that is doctor diagnosed gender dysphoria or whatnot i dont see the problem whatsoever! you could always ask for a private ward if you are that concerned about trans people.

A lot of opinions have been posted. Not one has been posted on behalf of a transperson.

[ethanjames]

A lot of opinions have been posted. Not one has been posted on behalf of a transperson.

many people in this thread said that trans men wouldnt want to be in a mens ward for their own safety and they basically spoke on behalf of us.

[user104658]

For me it's the broader issue of Self IDing, if it's allowed in some cases is it allowed in all?



*again who said people will be attacked in hospitals?If people won't be attacked then what is the issue? It can only be irrational fear (which is, literally by definition, phobia) and while yes irratiinal fears can still have a very real impact on people and shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, the aim should be to address those fears productively, and not say "Well quite right, we'll keep those strange folks away!" for the sake of comfort. How does society ever progress that way?

There are a lot of elderly people who are LEGITIMATELY afraid of black people... As in terrified. Because of how they were raised and things they've been indoctrinated to believe. Do we keep black people out of their wards to alleviate their fear? Their fear is very real, despite being unfounded and prejudiced. Do we stop black staff members from working with them? They would be much more comfortable if we did. But these things would (rightly) be seen as morally abhorrent. Why is it so different with trans issues? All I can ever come back to is the thought that people arguing so strongly against it must have some personal distaste for it, and a lot of it manifests as angry misandry, which is for some reason acceptable.

I mean jesus christ... Imagine the backlash if men were proudly declaring "NO VAGINAS IN MEN-ONLY SPACES!". It would go down like a lead balloon, and for good reason. Its a wildly offensive way to phrase what might otherwise be an opinion with some validity... Reducing people to their genitalia. What is that?


Also the issue of Self -ID is a complicated one in itself. What is the alternative to self ID? A person's thoughts and feelings on their identity is irrelevant unless it's confirmed by a doctor or psychologist? Mental health professionals (who, unfortunately, frequently get things horribly wrong) get the final say on what an individual is or isn't? I don't think that's a particularly attractive path, either.

The REAL scenario is that the vast majority of self-identified transsexuals Will be dressing as and living as the gender they are claiming. The idea that blokes are going around looking and acting like blokes whilst self identifying as women on any sort of regular basis is just complete fantasy. Does it happen? Maybe, very, very rarely but we don't live our lives based on what is very rare and unusual. We don't keep kids locked in the house because of the very rare occasions when they go missing. We don't ban cars based on the not-even-that-unusual chance of a crash. We calculate risk sensibly and take all sort of risks, individually and as a society, on a daily basis. The risk of allowing Self ID in hospitals is utterly miniscule, and the aim should be to help people understand that to alleviate their fears, not to validate those fears by telling people "Well yeah a covert predator in a wig really might getcha".

I don't tell my daughter that a masked man might run out of the woods and grab her when she's at the park with her friends. I don't keep her locked indoors. It happens! Horrifically, it COULD happen! But realistically, she isn't at any risk worth worrying about whilst playing hide and seek with her friends.

[ethanjames]

If people won't be attacked then what is the issue? It can only be irrational fear (which is, literally by definition, phobia) and while yes irratiinal fears can still have a very real impact on people and shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, the aim should be to address those fears productively, and not say "Well quite right, we'll keep those strange folks away!" for the sake of comfort. How does society ever progress that way?

There are a lot of elderly people who are LEGITIMATELY afraid of black people... As in terrified. Because of how they were raised and things they've been indoctrinated to believe. Do we keep black people out of their wards to alleviate their fear? Their fear is very real, despite being unfounded and prejudiced. Do we stop black staff members from working with them? They would be much more comfortable if we did. But these things would (rightly) be seen as morally abhorrent. Why is it so different with trans issues? All I can ever come back to is the thought that people arguing so strongly against it must have some personal distaste for it, and a lot of it manifests as angry misandry, which is for some reason acceptable.

I mean jesus christ... Imagine the backlash if men were proudly declaring "NO VAGINAS IN MEN-ONLY SPACES!". It would go down like a lead balloon, and for good reason. Its a wildly offensive way to phrase what might otherwise be an opinion with some validity... Reducing people to their genitalia. What is that?


Also the issue of Self -ID is a complicated one in itself. What is the alternative to self ID? A person's thoughts and feelings on their identity is irrelevant unless it's confirmed by a doctor or psychologist? Mental health professionals (who, unfortunately, frequently get things horribly wrong) get the final say on what an individual is or isn't? I don't think that's a particularly attractive path, either.

The REAL scenario is that the vast majority of self-identified transsexuals Will be dressing as and living as the gender they are claiming. The idea that blokes are going around looking and acting like blokes whilst self identifying as women on any sort of regular basis is just complete fantasy. Does it happen? Maybe, very, very rarely but we don't live our lives based on what is very rare and unusual. We don't keep kids locked in the house because of the very rare occasions when they go missing. We don't ban cars based on the not-even-that-unusual chance of a crash. We calculate risk sensibly and take all sort of risks, individually and as a society, on a daily basis. The risk of allowing Self ID in hospitals is utterly miniscule, and the aim should be to help people understand that to alleviate their fears, not to validate those fears by telling people "Well yeah a covert predator in a wig really might getcha".

I don't tell my daughter that a masked man might run out of the woods and grab her when she's at the park with her friends. I don't keep her locked indoors. It happens! Horrifically, it COULD happen! But realistically, she isn't at any risk worth worrying about whilst playing hide and seek with her friends.

good post ts!

[Marsh.]

LOL...

Isn't it funny that it seems like it's only men on this forum who know about gender and assume everyone else is ignorant.

Who said this?

The only member who's even commenting on genders who can and can't have an opinion is you. As per usual.

[user104658]

Well mainly prisons really, also in sportsPrisons I personally think the issue is more to do with the individual than a generalisation. If its a violent offender, all sort of considerations should be made when assessing the best place for them, and if that's done properly then there really should be very little chance of a violent male ending up in with female prisoners.

Sports is sort of a different debate really... It's less about universal rights and being born male does present a significant physical advantage in many sports. Honestly I would say that any fair-minded transfemale would be mindful of that and avoid the sport even if they're good at it, and consider that part of the "deal" for lack of a better word.

I think it's in Spider-man where he says that he would love to play a sport at school but used to be small and weak, and after getting powerz would obviously dominate, "but he couldn't before, so he shouldn't now". Which seems fair.

Not like Tom Welling's Clark Kent who played high school football and pretended like he wasnt at an advantage because he deliberately slowed down :nono:. BAD Tom.

[Niamh.]

If people won't be attacked then what is the issue? It can only be irrational fear (which is, literally by definition, phobia) and while yes irratiinal fears can still have a very real impact on people and shouldn't necessarily be dismissed, the aim should be to address those fears productively, and not say "Well quite right, we'll keep those strange folks away!" for the sake of comfort. How does society ever progress that way?


There are a lot of elderly people who are LEGITIMATELY afraid of black people... As in terrified. Because of how they were raised and things they've been indoctrinated to believe. Do we keep black people out of their wards to alleviate their fear? Their fear is very real, despite being unfounded and prejudiced. Do we stop black staff members from working with them? They would be much more comfortable if we did. But these things would (rightly) be seen as morally abhorrent. Why is it so different with trans issues? All I can ever come back to is the thought that people arguing so strongly against it must have some personal distaste for it, and a lot of it manifests as angry misandry, which is for some reason acceptable.

Again, I've already said I don't really have an issues with hospital wards.


I mean jesus christ... Imagine the backlash if men were proudly declaring "NO VAGINAS IN MEN-ONLY SPACES!". It would go down like a lead balloon, and for good reason. Its a wildly offensive way to phrase what might otherwise be an opinion with some validity... Reducing people to their genitalia. What is that?

I never said anything like that

Also the issue of Self -ID is a complicated one in itself. What is the alternative to self ID? A person's thoughts and feelings on their identity is irrelevant unless it's confirmed by a doctor or psychologist? Mental health professionals (who, unfortunately, frequently get things horribly wrong) get the final say on what an individual is or isn't? I don't think that's a particularly attractive path, either.



The REAL scenario is that the vast majority of self-identified transsexuals Will be dressing as and living as the gender they are claiming. The idea that blokes are going around looking and acting like blokes whilst self identifying as women on any sort of regular basis is just complete fantasy. Does it happen? Maybe, very, very rarely but we don't live our lives based on what is very rare and unusual. We don't keep kids locked in the house because of the very rare occasions when they go missing. We don't ban cars based on the not-even-that-unusual chance of a crash. We calculate risk sensibly and take all sort of risks, individually and as a society, on a daily basis. The risk of allowing Self ID in hospitals is utterly miniscule, and the aim should be to help people understand that to alleviate their fears, not to validate those fears by telling people "Well yeah a covert predator in a wig really might getcha".

Honestly I don't care how people choose to live, it only becomes an issue when places or things that are sex segregated (for good reason ie Biological reasons) are encroached upon like Prisons and Sports, there's been a fair few cases arising where trans woman have been entering womens sports and the biological advantages are very evident, it's pretty unfair for a start and also dangerous when it comes to some sports like UFC.


I don't tell my daughter that a masked man might run out of the woods and grab her when she's at the park with her friends. I don't keep her locked indoors. It happens! Horrifically, it COULD happen! But realistically, she isn't at any risk worth worrying about whilst playing hide and seek with her friends.


I do! Maybe not specifically a masked man but yeah, I've warned my kids about scenarios like those happening? I thought most parents did tbh?

[Niamh.]

Prisons I personally think the issue is more to do with the individual than a generalisation. If its a violent offender, all sort of considerations should be made when assessing the best place for them, and if that's done properly then there really should be very little chance of a violent male ending up in with female prisoners.

Sports is sort of a different debate really... It's less about universal rights and being born male does present a significant physical advantage in many sports. Honestly I would say that any fair-minded transfemale would be mindful of that and avoid the sport even if they're good at it, and consider that part of the "deal" for lack of a better word.

I think it's in Spider-man where he says that he would love to play a sport at school but used to be small and weak, and after getting powerz would obviously dominate, "but he couldn't before, so he shouldn't now". Which seems fair.

Not like Tom Welling's Clark Kent who played high school football and pretended like he wasnt at an advantage because he deliberately slowed down :nono:. BAD Tom.

Spiderman knew that with great power comes great responsibility :p

But just regarding sport, there actually have been a number of cases of these occurring lately so I think that is becoming a problem for women.

[user104658]

I never said anything like that


It wasn't directed at you, but at the "no penises in female only spaces" comment that Livia has made five or six times in this thread alone.



I do! Maybe not specifically a masked man but yeah, I've warned my kids about scenarios like those happening? I thought most parents did tbh?

She knows that bad things happen to people and what to do if it does happen but the point is she knows it is still very UNlikely and so doesn't actively worry about being snatched every time she's out on her own. And we don't base the rules on whether or not she can or can't do things on the slim possibility of something happening to her. No one can live like that, and that's how it works on a societal scale, too... every day, people board planes with their families knowing that planes DO crash, but understanding that the chance of ours crashing is tiny. Thus, logically, there's simply no reason to exclude transwomen (whether they have a "diagnosis" or not) from being in female wards based solely on the tiny possibility of one of them committing assault, and even LESS because of the small possibility that "some people might feel uncomfortable or frightened". Honestly exactly the same logic was applied when certain places in the US stopped relegating black people to the back of the bus; that it shouldn't happen "because people would be scared and intimidated" - especially women and the elderly - because of their false beliefs about ethnic minorities. I firmly believe that if we start basing decisions like this on "what everyone is comfortable with", NO progression could ever occur in any area.

That said, none of it is a reason to abandon common sense and individual use of judgement. If someone's behaviour is concerning or there's reason to believe that their motivations are suspect (such as a large burly man with a beard loudly insisting he's female) then of course they should expect some questions to be asked, but I just can't see that scenario actually happening often enough to be considered anything other than an anomaly... with the vast majority of self-IDing transexuals quite obviously having traits of their chosen gender.

[Niamh.]

Again, I'm not really concerned about hospital wards (and yes I know that's what this thread is about :P ) So not a whole lot of point me responding to that ^ I feel like we're going round in circles now because I'm back to saying I would be concerned about self IDing in certain situations ie prisons, sports etc.

[Zizu]

Apologies

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