NHS TRANS ROW as MEN get access to WOMAN'S wards if they identify as female

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2019/01/10/TELEMMGLPICT000185273720_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqUgehH7k nIs2mL4LO-crfgjXYafLZgJ5HdAz1f2P3Kuc.jpeg?imwidth=1400

Hospitals routinely allow male patients to share female wards if they self-identify as women, an investigation by The Telegraph has found.

Despite official guidance intended to eliminate mixed sex wards, none of the NHS trusts in England require a patient to have begun transition for them to be treated as their preferred sex, according to responses to more than 100 Freedom of Information requests.

One trust even advises staff to consult with the transgender patient if a female victim of sexual assault objects to sharing facilities with someone who may be biologically and legally male.

The NHS is unable to track how many transgender people are accommodated on wards for the opposite sex because data systems record them as their “preferred” sex.

The Department of Health’s “elimination of mixed sex wards” guidance upon which individual trusts must base their policies says that “men and women should not have to share sleeping accommodation or toilet/bathroom facilities”. But the document adds, “except where it is in the overall best interests of the patient or reflects their patient choice”.

As a result, a physically intact male has the right to choose to be treated on a ward for women that is simultaneously declared to be single sex.

David Davies, the Tory MP, described the guidance as “driving a coach and horses” through the need for single sex facilities. “It’s quite right that a Conservative government made a commitment to end mixed sex wards,” he said. “But people with male bodies should be on male wards.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2019/01/10/TELEMMGLPICT000182185657_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqWZZ9520 Qrn8RyVs0byqFfxGByaeD6X80N28ho092CK4.jpeg?imwidth= 1240


The Telegraph has been contacted by a nurse at a city hospital with a report of a patient identifying as a transgender woman who appeared to become sexually aroused on a female ward, causing distress to a group of elderly patients.

The incident raises concerns about the lack of “equality impact assessments” (EIAs) that should be undertaken by law to determine the effect on all groups that may be affected by transgender policy changes. EIAs seen by The Telegraph appear to have taken into account the impact only on transgender patients rather than on others who should also be considered because of their sex, age or religion.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2019/01/10/TELEMMGLPICT000185273715_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqwL18hh1 y3o5oqLAZvX7g-h7OidlH2hPOR1_EyK-QiR4.jpeg?imwidth=1240



“If you aren’t even considering other groups in your equality impact assessments, your policy cannot be lawful,” said Amanda Jones, a barrister at Great James Street Chambers. She described the NHS’s interpretation of the law with regard to the rights of transgender patients as “a mess”.

More than 80 per cent of people who identify as transgender do not undertake “gender reassignment” surgery, according to the Gender Identity Research & Education Society (GIRES), a charity that advises the Government.

Under the Gender Recognition Act 2004, transsexual people must live as the opposite sex for two years and be assessed by a medical panel following a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to qualify for a gender recognition certificate. Despite official estimates that the UK transgender population is between 200,000 and 500,000 or 0.7 per cent of the public, only around 5,000 certificates have ever been issued – and none of the trusts said they required transgender patients to have one.

Oxleas NHS Foundation Trust said it would class someone as transgender “without ever going to see a doctor”.

The definition of transgender within the NHS includes non-binary, gender-fluid, gender queer and non-gender – people who do not feel male or female. It means male patients who do not claim to live as women have the right to choose to stay on women’s wards.



Fewer than 10 trusts considered the needs of the majority of patients when allocating transgender patients to wards, with two more considering accommodation for transgender patients on a case-by-case basis. West Suffolk NHS Trust said the transgender patient’s right to be in a single sex environment of their preferred gender “supersedes objections raised by other patients” despite women and men having a right to segregated facilities under the Equality Act 2010. It said that while a female victim of sexual assault could “reasonably” object to being on the same ward as someone they “perceive to be male”, staff should “seek the view of the trans service user” before any action was taken.

Dr Nicola Williams of Fair Play for Women, said: “In an attempt to accommodate a minority, the state is sacrificing the needs of the majority at their most vulnerable.

“We have sex segregated facilities for a reason and I’m horrified those rights – for both sexes – have been removed without any consultation.”

Fewer than 10 trusts that replied reported complaints or incidents concerning transgender patients. But many pointed out that their systems allow patients to be defined only as male or female, with incidents or complaints involving transgender patients listed by their preferred sex.

A spokesman for NHS Improvement said: “As the guidance on mixed sex accommodation makes clear, decisions should be made in the best interests of all patients and based on the circumstances presented to NHS staff.”

A Stonewall spokesman said: “Everyone accessing healthcare services should be treated with respect, including trans people, who currently face huge levels of abuse in all areas of their lives. It’s important NHS trusts are working to ensure trans patients are treated equally because our research shows two in five trans people (37 per cent) avoid treatment for fear of discrimination.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/10/nhs-trans-row-men-get-access-womens-wards-identify-female/

Its a long article post as its premium content

[bots]

Given the medical needs of patients are based on their biology, it shouldnt be rocket science to classify them on that basis too.

[Cherie]

How many women identifiying as men end up on a male ward I wonder :think:

[thesheriff443]

You are lucky to get a bed let alone worrying who is on your ward.

Having to share a bed would be more of a concern, add to the fact old people are dying of starvation on wards, people need to pull their fingers out.

[Cherie]

You are lucky to get a bed let alone worrying who is on your ward.

Having to share a bed would be more of a concern, add to the fact old people are dying of starvation on wards, people need to pull their fingers out.


There are single sex wards for a reason you know, its about dignity, privacy and safety

[Crimson Dynamo]

i was in a hospital last night and there are wards for men and wards for women for good reason.

[thesheriff443]

There are single sex wards for a reason you know, its about dignity, privacy and safety

Have you been in any hospitals lately?

I’ve been in them, and seeing old people call out for help, or start choking on their own sick.

There are still male nurses on female wards. The male female wards consist of men on one side of a ward and women on another.

[thesheriff443]

i was in a hospital last night and there are wards for men and wards for women for good reason.

What was you in hospital for?????

[Cherie]

Have you been in any hospitals lately?

I’ve been in them, and seeing old people call out for help, or start choking on their own sick.

There are still male nurses on female wards. The male female wards consist of men on one side of a ward and women on another.


Yes I have and when someone rings the buzzer it takes about 20 minutes for someone to arrive, and that's not a one off its a regular thing, what have male nurses got to do with this, that is a totally different thing, a male nurse will have to have a female in attendance if he is attending to a female patient, and if any personal care is taking place two people have to be in attendance, this is for the protection of the patient and the staff so they can't be accused of anything.

What has elderly people choking on their own sick have to do with mixed wards?

I have not seen any mixed wards, but what difference does having the men on one side and women on the other make to personal safety, and dignity ?

[thesheriff443]

Yes I have and when someone rings the buzzer it takes about 20 minutes for someone to arrive, and that's not a one off its a regular thing. what have male nurses got to do with this, that is a totally different thing, a male nurse will have to have a female in attendance if he is attending to a female patient, and if any personal care is taking place two people have to be in attendance, this is for the protection of the patient and the staff so they can't be accused of anything.

What has elderly people choking on their own sick have to do with mixed wards?

I have not seen any mixed wards, but what difference does having the men on one side have and women on the other make to personal safety, and dignity ?

Well, if we go down the route of patients privacy dignity, have a male nurse is more intrusive than having a trans on your ward.

My view is stop the elderly needlessly suffering on ward first before kicking up a stick about tras people on a ward.

Priorities more than agendas

[Crimson Dynamo]

What was you in hospital for?????

Me old mum has been in for about 10 weeks now so I have had plenty of experience of hospitals and wards etc, well 2 big hospitals and countless wards

sick of them

[thesheriff443]

Me old mum has been in for about 10 weeks now so I have had plenty of experience of hospitals and wards etc, well 2 big hospitals and countless wards

sick of them

Sorry to hear that lt, was visiting someone in intensive care and on various wards throughout last year

[Cherie]

Well, if we go down the route of patients privacy dignity, have a male nurse is more intrusive than having a trans on your ward.

My view is stop the elderly needlessly suffering on ward first before kicking up a stick about tras people on a ward.

Priorities more than agendas



You can refuse to be seen by a male nurse and ask to be seen by female only if you want. There is no correlation between the elderly needlessly suffering and mixed wards, the former is down to staffing or careless staff who have no interest the latter is about treating trans people who have not yet gone through the reassignment process and where they should be put in hospitals, its interesting isn't it that this isn't an issue with females transitioning to male, no males wards are affected it would appear

[Niamh.]

You can refuse to be seen by a male nurse and ask to be seen by female only if you want. There is no correlation between the elderly needlessly suffering and mixed wards, the former is down to staffing or careless staff who have no interest the latter is about treating trans people who have not yet gone through the reassignment process and where they should be put in hospitals, its interesting isn't it that this isn't an issue with females transitioning to male, no males wards are affected it would appear

It is. Same with prisons etc

[Cherie]

and @ Sherriff, I hope you raised a complaint about what you have witnessed

[arista]

"a patient identifying as a transgender woman who appeared to become sexually aroused on a female ward, causing distress to a group of elderly patients."

Shocking

[Withano]

How many women identifiying as men end up on a male ward I wonder :think:

All of them. But that wont send you and others into the frenzy that this article does so theres no point writing an article about it.

[Niamh.]

All of them. But that wont send you and others into the frenzy that this article does so theres no point writing an article about it.

How do you know that?

[Withano]

How do you know that?

Because the NHS doesn’t discriminate

[Niamh.]

Because the NHS doesn’t discriminate

I mean how do you know that biologically born female's who are trans men (without the OP) have decided that they're going to go into mens wards pre op?

[Withano]

I mean how do you know that biologically born female's who are trans men (without the OP) have decided that they're going to go into mens wards pre op?

Same answer as above :suspect:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Because the NHS doesn’t discriminate

:joker: yeah sure

"Black and other minority ethnic staff are less likely to be promoted, or made executive directors or board members. A 2014 study, The Snowy White Peaks of the NHS, examined BME progression in the health service in London and exposed the lack of representation of BME staff in the upper echelons of the NHS. This was reflected nationally across other NHS bodies.

Furthermore, significantly greater numbers of NHS staff from BME backgrounds experience discrimination and bullying in the workplace than their white colleagues – and they are more likely than white colleagues to be disciplined over comparable issues. A survey of every NHS trust and primary care trust in England proves that BME workers are disproportionately involved in disciplinary procedures, grievances, bullying and harassment cases and capability reviews."

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jul/09/nhs-bme-staff-discrimination

[Cherie]

All of them. But that wont send you and others into the frenzy that this article does so theres no point writing an article about it.

If you can give me some links and examples rather than your own thoughts that would be great

[Cherie]

here's a link for you Withano


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5780623/Female-protesters-break-men-lido-leap-pool.html


Can you provide some where females transitioning to males demanded to go into male prisons, male hospital wards etc of their own free will pre op of course

[Niamh.]

here's a link for you Withano


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5780623/Female-protesters-break-men-lido-leap-pool.html

It will only become a "proper" issue when it upsets men of course

[Cherie]

It will only become a "proper" issue when it upsets men of course

If females trans are demanding to go into male prisons etc, I am pretty sure it will be reported somewhere

[Niamh.]

If females trans are demanding to go into male prisons etc, I am pretty sure it will be reported somewhere

I mean, the fact is especially when it comes to prisons, biological men are more dangerous to biological women than the other way round so i would imagine that's a big reason why pre op trans men would want to go to womens prisons over mens. However if it's true that biological men are more of a danger to biological women then putting pre op trans women (biological men) into womens prisons is basically saying we're putting trans womens safety over biological womens safety

[thesheriff443]

You can refuse to be seen by a male nurse and ask to be seen by female only if you want. There is no correlation between the elderly needlessly suffering and mixed wards, the former is down to staffing or careless staff who have no interest the latter is about treating trans people who have not yet gone through the reassignment process and where they should be put in hospitals, its interesting isn't it that this isn't an issue with females transitioning to male, no males wards are affected it would appear

When you are ill you may not have the strength or voice to ask for a female nurse.

What happens when you get a trans surgeon the only one available, do you say I would rather die than have a trans surgeon.

[Cherie]

When you are ill you may not have the strength or voice to ask for a female nurse.

What happens when you get a trans surgeon the only one available, do you say I would rather die than have a trans surgeon.

That is a ridiculous comparison, a surgeon can be male or female, and they are a fully vetted member of staff, the same as a male nurse :umm2: If the trans person has undergone or is going through gender reassignment there is no issue, where the problem currently lies is you for instance could say tomorrow that you identify as a woman and you would then get a bed on a female ward, no ifs, no buts no maybes and if you were refused someone would probably lose their job due to perceived transphobia


Did you make a formal complaint about what you witnessed as you never did answer my question

[Withano]

It will only become a "proper" issue when it upsets men of course

It does upset countless transphobic men. As always ‘trans rights’ isn’t a men vs women issue regardless of how tibb makes it seem to be. But this argument has been done to death and back! We might as well read old threads, nobody has changed their stance, discussing it is a waste of time.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It does upset countless transphobic men. As always ‘trans rights’ isn’t a men vs women issue regardless of how tibb makes it seem to be. But this argument has been done to death and back! We might as well read old threads, nobody has changed their stance, discussing it is a waste of time.

What a terrible negative attitude to have just because people disagree with you and ask you to explain your views?

[thesheriff443]

You could go the road of saying I’m a man and I’m not staying on a ward with a gay man
Or with a woman saying I’m not staying on a ward with a lesbian.

People carry on like being trans is a choice an easy option.

Give them a break live and let live.

Wen you are old and on your all female ward and you been laying your own p1ss for hours then you realise how silly the trans argument is.

[Cherie]

You could go the road of saying I’m a man and I’m not staying on a ward with a gay man
Or with a woman saying I’m not staying on a ward with a lesbian.

People carry on like being trans is a choice an easy option.

Give them a break live and let live.

Wen you are old and on your all female ward and you been laying your own p1ss for hours then you realise how silly the trans argument is.

How is it silly to want to feel safe when you are at your most vulnerable.

I will ask you for a third time as you seem to have witnessed some terrible things during your hospital visits, did you fill in one of those...how did we do today cards, did you speak to the charge nurse, did you write to the Trust, what have you done to correct the wrongs you have witnessed?

[thesheriff443]

How is it silly to want to feel safe when you are at your most vulnerable.

I will ask you for a third time as you seem to have witnessed some terrible things during your hospital visits, did you fill in one of those...how did we do today cards, did you speak to the charge nurse, did you write to the Trust, what have you done to correct the wrongs you have witnessed?

I went and got a nurse from the nurse station, and told her what was happening with on of their patients.

No I didn’t write to anyone because all you get is we are looking into improvements but we are under staffed and under budget cuts.

You are more at risk of an infection due to poor hygiene than being harmed by a trans person.

[thesheriff443]

Any of us or our children could have been born trans or had the strength to come out as trans.

I’ve learned to be greatfull for who I am and have compassion for those who arrive suffering from something that is due to no fault of their own.

[Jessica.]

Why should men and women be separated in the first place?

[Niamh.]

It does upset countless transphobic men. As always ‘trans rights’ isn’t a men vs women issue regardless of how tibb makes it seem to be. But this argument has been done to death and back! We might as well read old threads, nobody has changed their stance, discussing it is a waste of time.

Trans rights are conflicting with womens rights though in some cases, especially the self ID stuff, that's my only issue

[Niamh.]

You could go the road of saying I’m a man and I’m not staying on a ward with a gay man
Or with a woman saying I’m not staying on a ward with a lesbian.

People carry on like being trans is a choice an easy option.

Give them a break live and let live.

Wen you are old and on your all female ward and you been laying your own p1ss for hours then you realise how silly the trans argument is.

I can't speak for everyone in this thread but it's not the average trans person that people are talking about, it's this new Self IDing, pre OP (or no intention of an OP) situation that most have the problem with. Where you can just decide "yeah I'm a woman now". Trans people have been around for a longtime and there was no issue, it's only become an issue because of self IDing.

[Cherie]

I can't speak for everyone in this thread but it's not the average trans person that people are talking about, it's this new Self IDing, pre OP (or no intention of an OP) situation that most have the problem with. Where you can just decide "yeah I'm a woman now". Trans people have been around for a longtime and there was no issue, it's only become an issue because of self IDing.

That is overlooked, not sure if it is on purpose or they clearly can't see the difference

[Cherie]

Any of us or our children could have been born trans or had the strength to come out as trans.

I’ve learned to be greatfull for who I am and have compassion for those who arrive suffering from something that is due to no fault of their own.


where do you stand on a male claiming they are now a womans seeking refuge in a woman hostel?

[Cherie]

I went and got a nurse from the nurse station, and told her what was happening with on of their patients.

No I didn’t write to anyone because all you get is we are looking into improvements but we are under staffed and under budget cuts.

You are more at risk of an infection due to poor hygiene than being harmed by a trans person.

One of the patients, oh right I thought there was a whole tranche of people lying in their own piss

[thesheriff443]

I can't speak for everyone in this thread but it's not the average trans person that people are talking about, it's this new Self IDing, pre OP (or no intention of an OP) situation that most have the problem with. Where you can just decide "yeah I'm a woman now". Trans people have been around for a longtime and there was no issue, it's only become an issue because of self IDing.

I do understand where you are coming from, but even if you just decide one day to be trans it’s not a golden ticket to wealth and happiness.

People do abuse the system, we all know that, but we must not let genuine people suffer abuse and discrimination.

[Niamh.]

Why should men and women be separated in the first place?

Honestly hospital wards wouldn't be such a big issue for me, there would be male visitors coming in and out all day anyway, I've been in short term wards (where you're released that day after a procedure/op). But I could see for elderly people who may be in there for longer periods why they'd rather not be in mixed words, for the sake of modesty. Changing rooms and prisons should not be mixed though imo

[The Slim Reaper]

where do you stand on someone claiming they are now a womans seeking refuge in a woman hostel?

Womens hostels are categorised into areas like 16-25's, d&a dependency, domestic violence etc, I used to supply staff to these types of social housing, so your question is flawed. I'm not commenting on the debate, as I'm not 100% sure on my own opinions with this issue, but just adding a bit of info regarding this specific question.

[chuff me dizzy]

Its so wrong ,needs stopping NOW !!

[thesheriff443]

One of the patients, oh right I thought there was a whole tranche of people lying in their own piss

Now you are just being petty, you yourself said you have seen someone ringing the buzzer and it taking 20 mins for someone to come.

I don’t work in a hospital but over time visiting friends and family you see things happening.

[Niamh.]

I do understand where you are coming from, but even if you just decide one day to be trans it’s not a golden ticket to wealth and happiness.

People do abuse the system, we all know that, but we must not let genuine people suffer abuse and discrimination.

But instead we put women at risk so genuine Self IDing trans people don't suffer? (mostly talking prisons etc here) It's saying that trans rights trump womens safety. Prisons and Changing rooms aren't seperated by gender, they're seperated by sex for fairly obvious reasons so if a trans person hasn't had the OP, for the safety of female inmates they shouldn't be put in womens prisons

[thesheriff443]

where do you stand on a male claiming they are now a womans seeking refuge in a woman hostel?

It’s a nice try from you to muddy the water, common sense would say that it’s not essential for that person to stay in a woman’s hostel and appreciate accommodation and safe guards would be put in place

[thesheriff443]

But instead we put women at risk so genuine Self IDing trans people don't suffer? (mostly talking prisons etc here) It's saying that trans rights trump womens safety. Prisons and Changing rooms aren't seperated by gender, they're seperated by sex for fairly obvious reasons so if a trans person hasn't had the OP, for the safety of female inmates they shouldn't be put in womens prisons

The op is about trans on hospital wards prison is a different issue, pre op trans should not be put on women’s wings nor should they be put on men’s wings.

[Marsh.]

Anybody can be a danger to anyone. All this fear mongering about trans-patients is so backwards.

[user104658]

This argument has been done to death and back! We might as well read old threads, nobody has changed their stance, discussing it is a waste of time.

Nothing more to say than this really. If I read a stance on trans issues on TiBB that I haven't seen before in 5 other threads I'll be utterly flabberghasted. Substitute "women's wards" in the title for "prisons", "women's shelters" or "bathrooms" and you can read everyone's response to this thread.

[Alf]

Mental illness ward is where they should be.

[Mokka]

Here in Canada there are no Male and Female wards. Wards are created based on the reason you are in. If it's heart health... you will be on a ward with men and woman. I've even seen men and woman in the same room :omgno:..... Maybe you all just need to get over the false notion that trans people are just trying to pull a fast one to get into the opposite sexes change rooms and hospital wards for a cheap thrill... and realize people are just people.

[Crimson Dynamo]

there you go women of tibb, marsh TS and withano say


"put up and shut up, this conversation is over"

:umm2:


:

[Mokka]

there you go women of tibb, marsh TS and withano say


"put up and shut up, this conversation is over"

:umm2:


:

Well thank goodness for the three of them being the real voice of reason around here. I'd have any one of them defend my rights as a woman any day

[Crimson Dynamo]

Gloria calling it straight on Loose Women

https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/8171671/gloria-hunniford-offends-loose-women-viewers-transgender/

[Cherie]

Well thank goodness for the three of them being the real voice of reason around here. I'd have any one of them defend my rights as a woman any day

I still don't see pre op female to male trans battering down the doors to get into male facilities so where is the equality?

[Cherie]

Now you are just being petty, you yourself said you have seen someone ringing the buzzer and it taking 20 mins for someone to come.

I don’t work in a hospital but over time visiting friends and family you see things happening.


I am not being petty, you keep bringing up aspects of care in hospitals as some sort of comparison, not me

[Mokka]

I still don't see pre op female to male trans battering down the doors to get into male facilities so where is the equality?

My own kid is female to male trans... and we are just starting the process of undergoing those changes... and I know for a fact HE would want to start out and end up in a Male ward... (if Male wards are even necessary) because HE thinks, feels, and identifies as male. When you go into a hospital you get assigned a bed based on your recovery period... not based on your gender going in...so if location matters and he will need attention to his male physical body... then he needs to be where that can happen... not in labour, delivery, or hysterectomys.

[Jordan.]

I still don't see pre op female to male trans battering down the doors to get into male facilities so where is the equality?

Do you know this from personal experience or just assuming because their isn't a weekly outraged news article on the daily mail that it doesn't happen?

Regardless I'd say it's not really a fair comparison when female to male transitioning is a lot more accepted in society than male to female is. Of course more transwomen are seeking help than transmen.

[Alf]

The Veruca Salt generation

"Don't care how, I want it now"

[Crimson Dynamo]

Do you know this from personal experience or just assuming because their isn't a weekly outraged news article on the daily mail that it doesn't happen?

Regardless I'd say it's not really a fair comparison when female to male transitioning is a lot more accepted in society than male to female is. Of course more transwomen are seeking help than transmen.

"when female to male transitioning is a lot more accepted in society than male to female is. Of course more transwomen are seeking help than transmen."

do you know this from personal experience or what?

[Marsh.]

there you go women of tibb, marsh TS and withano say


"put up and shut up, this conversation is over"

:umm2:


:

That's a funny way of saying "Stop demonising homosexuals and transsexuals as sexual deviants" but ok.

[Marsh.]

Mental illness ward is where they should be.

A trans woman who is admitted to hospital with a heart condition should be put on a mental illness ward?

Don't think you thought that one through did you?

[thesheriff443]

My own kid is female to male trans... and we are just starting the process of undergoing those changes... and I know for a fact HE would want to start out and end up in a Male ward... (if Male wards are even necessary) because HE thinks, feels, and identifies as male. When you go into a hospital you get assigned a bed based on your recovery period... not based on your gender going in...so if location matters and he will need attention to his male physical body... then he needs to be where that can happen... not in labour, delivery, or hysterectomys.

A post like this makes this forum worth being
On,a real person with real experience of the subject being discussed.

[Marsh.]

Honestly hospital wards wouldn't be such a big issue for me, there would be male visitors coming in and out all day anyway, I've been in short term wards (where you're released that day after a procedure/op). But I could see for elderly people who may be in there for longer periods why they'd rather not be in mixed words, for the sake of modesty. Changing rooms and prisons should not be mixed though imo

They have changing rooms and modesty screens for a reason though?

I can't imagine elderly women all strip off happily in front of one another either? :laugh:

[Marsh.]

The Veruca Salt generation

"Don't care how, I want it now"

Which generation?

Its so wrong ,needs stopping NOW !!

[Niamh.]

They have changing rooms and modesty screens for a reason though?

I can't imagine elderly women all strip off happily in front of one another either? [emoji23]Probably not I suppose [emoji38]

[Crimson Dynamo]

A post like this makes this forum worth being
On,a real person with real experience of the subject being discussed.

well in Canada not the UK and not the NHS

so not really

[Mokka]

well in Canada not the UK and not the NHS

so not really

And you aren't trans, female or affected by the topic of this debate but you started the thread.

Careful LT... letting your transphobia, homophobia and Xenophobia hang out all in one thread may leave you a little to exposed.

[UserSince2005]

Hot, all that unwashed puss

[Alf]

And you aren't trans, female or affected by the topic of this debate but you started the thread.

Careful LT... letting your transphobia, homophobia and Xenophobia hang out all in one thread may leave you a little to exposed.And that's the end of discussion LT. You've been labelled with the phobias, so you lose.

[thesheriff443]

well in Canada not the UK and not the NHS

so not really

Didn’t realise if you live in a different country it cancels out real life.

[Oliver_W]

Hospital wards a bit different to prisons and hostels, how many opportunities would predatory traps have to abuse women in a hospital? Changes of clothes and intimate exams are always done behind the curtains anyway.

[thesheriff443]

I am not being petty, you keep bringing up aspects of care in hospitals as some sort of comparison, not me

Of course I do!, it’s lack of care killing patients not trans patients.

I don’t think the average persons is going to be turned on by you taking a dump in a cardboard shaped hat behind the curtain let alone a trans one.

[Cherie]

My own kid is female to male trans... and we are just starting the process of undergoing those changes... and I know for a fact HE would want to start out and end up in a Male ward... (if Male wards are even necessary) because HE thinks, feels, and identifies as male. When you go into a hospital you get assigned a bed based on your recovery period... not based on your gender going in...so if location matters and he will need attention to his male physical body... then he needs to be where that can happen... not in labour, delivery, or hysterectomys.

This issue won't arise for your child, as there are already mixed wards in your hospitals. In the UK you can if you want choose to see either a male or female GP for instance, and most wards are single sex. As I have said umpteem times its self identification that I have an issue with as it open to abuse. If the person is transitioning or has transitioned I have no issue

[Cherie]

Of course I do!, it’s lack of care killing patients not trans patients.

I don’t think the average persons is going to be turned on by you taking a dump in a cardboard shaped hat behind the curtain let alone a trans one.

As I previously said that has to do with staffing, or people not doing their jobs properly it has nothing to do with the issue being discussed

[Crimson Dynamo]

Didn’t realise if you live in a different country it cancels out real life.

a cursory glance at the OP is your friend

[Tom4784]

The problem with gender is that people are trying to make it out to be this unknowable and unclassifiable thing and it's just not feasible in situations like this. I think if you have transitioned or have already begun that journey than you should be allowed on your preferred gender's ward but somebody identifying as the other gender isn't enough to consider them that gender in situations like this.

[thesheriff443]

As I previously said that has to do with staffing, or people not doing their jobs properly it has nothing to do with the issue being discussed

It’s an example of how you are making out that you are at risk from a trans person being on a ward when in reality it’s lack of staff putting you at risk.

[thesheriff443]

a cursory glance at the OP is your friend

Regardless of the country where is the evidence of trans attacking people on hospital wards.

[Niamh.]

The problem with gender is that people are trying to make it out to be this unknowable and unclassifiable thing and it's just not feasible in situations like this. I think if you have transitioned or have already begun that journey than you should be allowed on your preferred gender's ward but somebody identifying as the other gender isn't enough to consider them that gender in situations like this.Agree with this.

[user104658]

The problem with gender is that people are trying to make it out to be this unknowable and unclassifiable thing and it's just not feasible in situations like this. I think if you have transitioned or have already begun that journey than you should be allowed on your preferred gender's ward but somebody identifying as the other gender isn't enough to consider them that gender in situations like this.Agree with this.I think the issue here is that you're imagining some big burly bald bloke sat in a bed in a female ward saying "Wot of it luv? I'm a woman!" whilst aggressively gesturing at his penis and winking.

If someone can provide a real-world example of that or anything similar actually happening, rather than a bizarre concern that it COULD theoretically happen, then there's a discussion to be had. Until then it's frankly all just blind outrage about nothing.

[Marsh.]

I think the issue here is that you're imagining some big burly bald bloke sat in a bed in a female ward saying "Wot of it luv? I'm a woman!" whilst aggressively gesturing at his penis and winking.

This sounds like LT in a Carry On film. :joker:

[Caution]

I think the issue here is that you're imagining some big burly bald bloke sat in a bed in a female ward saying "Wot of it luv? I'm a woman!" whilst aggressively gesturing at his penis and winking.

If someone can provide a real-world example of that or anything similar actually happening, rather than a bizarre concern that it COULD theoretically happen, then there's a discussion to be had. Until then it's frankly all just blind outrage about nothing.

well I mean this did blow up recent..
JdnBV-S-RXk

[user104658]

well I mean this did blow up recent..
JdnBV-S-RXk

Wow I knew things were bad in the English NHS but I didn't know they had resorted to opening up wards in GameStop in the United States! That's surely the more pressing issue here.

[Oliver_W]

well I mean this did blow up recent..
JdnBV-S-RXk

That's nothing to do with hospitals though.

That said, it is ****ing hilarious, it's up there with that guy who worked in a vape store chimping out over nothing

[Caution]

Wow I knew things were bad in the English NHS but I didn't know they had resorted to opening up wards in GameStop in the United States! That's surely the more pressing issue here.

That's nothing to do with hospitals though.

That said, it is ****ing hilarious, it's up there with that guy who worked in a vape store chimping out over nothing



Oh yeah transsexuals like that only exist in America of course, and don’t go to hospitals, they only go GameStop. I guess trans people in the UK have access to far more advanced forms of hormone treatment, yeah that’s it

[Mokka]

This issue won't arise for your child, as there are already mixed wards in your hospitals. In the UK you can if you want choose to see either a male or female GP for instance, and most wards are single sex. As I have said umpteem times its self identification that I have an issue with as it open to abuse. If the person is transitioning or has transitioned I have no issue

First of all... my point was that the NEED for separate wards for gender doesnt exist...if Canada's free healthcare system can run this way...why not the NHS. There is no basic rights being violated by mixed wards.

Secondly, transitioning doesnt happen overnight. At what point would you like to declare they are transitioned? The surgery takes years of planning and meds previous and multiple surgeries... but because someone else might be "uncomfortable" with someone in transition being in a shared hospital room... that's taking the pale. They aren't at any higher risk of being violated by a transgender person than they are by any stranger of any gender sharing a room or ward with them.

[user104658]

Oh yeah transsexuals like that only exist in America of course, and don’t go to hospitals, they only go GameStop. I guess trans people in the UK have access to far more advanced forms of hormone treatment, yeah that’s itYou're comparing an extreme incident in a retail establishment to what is realistically happening in hospital wards. I can only assume because you have an agenda. Again, if you have an example of something like this happening in a hospital ward then there's something to discuss. If not then you're just adding to the pile of assumptions and bull**** media hysteria.

[Marsh.]

well I mean this did blow up recent..
JdnBV-S-RXk

I'm sorry... this has what to do with a male to female transperson molesting women in a hospital?

[Marsh.]

I do laugh though. Just noticed the "MEN GET ACCESS" part of the title. As though female wards are under lock and key and a line of dribbling pervs have just been given special privileges.

[user104658]

They aren't at any higher risk of being violated by a transgender person than they are by any stranger of any gender sharing a room or ward with them.

And realistically, that risk is absolutely miniscule, even if there WERE hoards of men posing as women because they want to assault people. It logically fails on so many levels. First of all these people have to exist in any large number (which obviously they do not). Then they need to either somehow FAKE an illness or condition to get into a hospital ward, which is ludicrous, or perhaps just carry out an opportunistic sex attack whilst being ill enough to be a hospital inpatient :facepalm:.

But wait.

They also have to carry out that attack in a ward, which almost universally in the UK, have four beds per room and an open door to a staffed corridor.

And there's yet more!

The assumption is that these wards are otherwise secure. They are not. I could literally drive to the nearest hospital and walk onto a ward, for any gender, and into a room on that ward, at more or less any time, and no one would stop me.

But having transsexuals on the ward as patients? Far too dangerous!

I honestly don't think more than two seconds of snap reaction outrage goes into these opinions, it's such utter nonsense.

So... With all that in mind, it's pretty clear that the problem is not ACTUAL physical safety; it's about "safe space" and the perception / comfort of being safe (much like the women's toilets debate, with the bizarre logic that a man can't just walk into one at any time anyway).

And yes of course, everyone has the right to feel safe and comfortable, especially when ill. So what's making them feel unsafe? Is it the "presence of disguised penis"?

Or are they feeling nervous precisely because of the media hysteria, the bull****, the demonising, and people online winding each other up. Hmmm.

[user104658]

I do laugh though. Just noticed the "MEN GET ACCESS" part of the title. As though female wards are under lock and key and a line of dribbling pervs have just been given special privileges.Indeed Merch, like I said in the last post, if someone desperately wants to assault women in a hospital they can just go to any hospital and walk in the door! The idea that you have to pose as a pre-op transexual to get onto a women's hospital ward is just... Well... It's just incorrect. If it's not a secure ward (and if it's not a psych ward, it's not a secure ward) then it's not restricted access! They don't even have set visiting hours any more.

[lime]

The problem with gender is that people are trying to make it out to be this unknowable and unclassifiable thing and it's just not feasible in situations like this. I think if you have transitioned or have already begun that journey than you should be allowed on your preferred gender's ward but somebody identifying as the other gender isn't enough to consider them that gender in situations like this.
:love::love:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think the issue here is that you're imagining some big burly bald bloke sat in a bed in a female ward saying "Wot of it luv? I'm a woman!" whilst aggressively gesturing at his penis and winking.

If someone can provide a real-world example of that or anything similar actually happening, rather than a bizarre concern that it COULD theoretically happen, then there's a discussion to be had. Until then it's frankly all just blind outrage about nothing.

i think page 2 of the article and already in this thread!

[Crimson Dynamo]

and its not about anyone attacking anyone its about respect for the women. men and women are not the same

[Cherie]

The problem with gender is that people are trying to make it out to be this unknowable and unclassifiable thing and it's just not feasible in situations like this. I think if you have transitioned or have already begun that journey than you should be allowed on your preferred gender's ward but somebody identifying as the other gender isn't enough to consider them that gender in situations like this.

.

[Cherie]

Indeed Merch, like I said in the last post, if someone desperately wants to assault women in a hospital they can just go to any hospital and walk in the door! The idea that you have to pose as a pre-op transexual to get onto a women's hospital ward is just... Well... It's just incorrect. If it's not a secure ward (and if it's not a psych ward, it's not a secure ward) then it's not restricted access! They don't even have set visiting hours any more.

You are the one talking about attacks which is not the main issue what about for cultural reasons reasons how do you shoehorn in the needs and rights of women to be separate on those occasions

[Marsh.]

You are the one talking about attacks which is not the main issue what about for cultural reasons reasons how do you shoehorn in the needs and rights of women to be separate on those occasions

What cultural reasons?

Wards are not private areas. They are open to countless people of both genders passing through day and night.

For modesty, they have screens, rooms and bathrooms. :shrug:

[thesheriff443]

and its not about anyone attacking anyone its about respect for the women. men and women are not the same

Looks like you done well in biology.

Can see your post turning the whole thread around? Not.

If you wrote that on paper it would be a waste of paper and ink.

[thesheriff443]

I know there have been cuts in the nhs, but they are not making men and women share baths.

How many on here man or woman would leave the changing room door open in a stores fitting room.

[Marsh.]

Most fitting rooms I've been in have flimsy curtains.

[thesheriff443]

Most fitting rooms I've been in have flimsy curtains.

True but Asda has doors, but even with a curtain, you still pull it, and I’ve never had anyone open the curtain while you are in there.

[Marsh.]

True but Asda has doors, but even with a curtain, you still pull it, and I’ve never had anyone open the curtain while you are in there.

Me neither.

[Cherie]

What cultural reasons?

Wards are not private areas. They are open to countless people of both genders passing through day and night.

For modesty, they have screens, rooms and bathrooms. :shrug:

so you can't think of one culture where men and women are segregated, no?

what about the one where some women cover their hair and faces in public, are you honestly telling me that they will be lying in a hospital bed next to a man?

[Cherie]

I know there have been cuts in the nhs, but they are not making men and women share baths.

How many on here man or woman would leave the changing room door open in a stores fitting room.

Now who is being petty

[Zizu]

Now who is being petty



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/5fb6a84951be8bc942f65ea5854b6049.jpeg

Oddly I always thought he was a bit feminine :)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[thesheriff443]

Now who is being petty

I’m not being petty I’m taking the p1ss.

[chuff me dizzy]

so you can't think of one culture where men and women are segregated, no?

what about the one where some women cover their hair and faces in public, are you honestly telling me that they will be lying in a hospital bed next to a man?

They would have to be moved to a side room or similar ,so costing the NHS more £$

[Jessica.]

Honestly hospital wards wouldn't be such a big issue for me, there would be male visitors coming in and out all day anyway, I've been in short term wards (where you're released that day after a procedure/op). But I could see for elderly people who may be in there for longer periods why they'd rather not be in mixed words, for the sake of modesty. Changing rooms and prisons should not be mixed though imoPersonally I wouldn't feel sharing a ward with anyone to be modest, also, there are male doctors and nurses, I wouldn't find being treated by a man any different to being in the same ward as one. It's just a man. The only reason a trans person, pre-op or post-op is going to be in the hospital is for a medical need. They're not going to be rubbing their hands together at the prospect of preying on someone at the hospital when they find out they have to get their gallbladder out.

[Marsh.]

so you can't think of one culture where men and women are segregated, no?

what about the one where some women cover their hair and faces in public, are you honestly telling me that they will be lying in a hospital bed next to a man?

Those kinds of people would have all kinds of issues with the set up of a Western hospital regardless of any possible gender divide.

Does it require an entire restructure of our hospitals? Not really.

[Cherie]

Personally I wouldn't feel sharing a ward with anyone to be modest, also, there are male doctors and nurses, I wouldn't find being treated by a man any different to being in the same ward as one. It's just a man. The only reason a trans person, pre-op or post-op is going to be in the hospital is for a medical need. They're not going to be rubbing their hands together at the prospect of preying on someone at the hospital when they find out they have to get their gallbladder out.

You have completely missed the point, its self identication that is the issue and if you read the article their rights are more important than anyone elses as it stands, shouldn’t we all have the same rights? if I identify as a cat tomorrow can I go and stay in a cattery :hello: because that is how bonkers this is

[Marsh.]

You have completely missed the point, its self identication that is the issue and if you read the article their rights are more important than anyone elses as it stands, shouldn’t we all have the same rights? if I identify as a cat tomorrow can I go and stay in a cattery :hello: because that is how bonkers this is

Well not really.

You just compared gender to species.

[Alf]

Let's compromise and give the trans their own ward, their own toilets and changing rooms and anything else where the sexes are separated.

It's not rocket science

[Cherie]

Well not really.

You just compared gender to species.

Why cant I, who is going to stop me.?

Fewer than 10 trusts considered the needs of the majority of patients when allocating transgender patients to wards, with two more considering accommodation for transgender patients on a case-by-case basis. West Suffolk NHS Trust said the transgender patient’s right to be in a single sex environment of their preferred gender “supersedes objections raised by other patients” despite women and men having a right to segregated facilities under the Equality Act 2010. It said that while a female victim of sexual assault could “reasonably” object to being on the same ward as someone they “perceive to be male”, staff should “seek the view of the trans service user” before any action was taken.

[Marsh.]

Let's compromise and give the trans their own ward, their own toilets and changing rooms and anything else where the sexes are separated.

It's not rocket science

Are trans people in such numbers that they require their own ward?

We wouldn't want more wasted space when there's a fight for beds as it is.

[Marsh.]

Why cant I, who is going to stop me.?



Oh dear. Nobody's stopping you it's just a waste of effort as claiming to be a cat is not even similar to gender, nevermind a direct comparison. Like what exactly are you illustrating with it apart from ignorance?

[Jessica.]

You have completely missed the point, its self identication that is the issue and if you read the article their rights are more important than anyone elses as it stands, shouldn’t we all have the same rights? if I identify as a cat tomorrow can I go and stay in a cattery :hello: because that is how bonkers this isThat is a ridiculous comparison. You're clearly running out of ideas.

Transgender people are just the same as everyone else, the literal only difference it makes to anyone apart from them personally is words. They might prefer to be called by a chosen name rather than the one picked for them and they might prefer to be referred to as "she/her" rather than "he/him". Other than that there is zero affect on anyone apart from that person trying to get on with their life and be comfortable.

[Cherie]

Oh dear. Nobody's stopping you it's just a waste of effort as claiming to be a cat is not even similar to gender, nevermind a direct comparison. Like what exactly are you illustrating with it apart from ignorance?

Yes I’m ignorant lets finish any discussion right there

[Cherie]

That is a ridiculous comparison. You're clearly running out of ideas.

Transgender people are just the same as everyone else, the literal only difference it makes to anyone apart from them personally is words. They might prefer to be called by a chosen name rather than the one picked for them and they might prefer to be referred to as "she/her" rather than "he/him". Other than that there is zero affect on anyone apart from that person trying to get on with their life and be comfortable.

So how are you going to accommodate muslim women in this bright new dawn of yours?

[Marsh.]

Yes I’m ignorant lets finish any discussion right there

Oh please no.

I want you to bring up a completely irrelevant comparison again to try and back up your point. :(

[Cherie]

Oh please no.

I want you to bring up a completely irrelevant comparison again to try and back up your point. :(

And I want you to discount a whole community because you couldn’t join the dots :hee:

[Marsh.]

And I want you to discount a whole community because you couldn’t join the dots :hee:

Who did I discount?

What do you think happens with Muslim patients at the moment?

You're the one with a confused idea of how a transgender person in a hospital is going to affect you.

Literally as archaic as blokes thinking gay men automatically want to sexually assault them.

[Jessica.]

So how are you going to accommodate muslim women in this bright new dawn of yours?What would they need accommodation for?

[Alf]

Are trans people in such numbers that they require their own ward?

We wouldn't want more wasted space when there's a fight for beds as it is.Once we leave the EU, we'll have an extra few Bob to spend instead of paying for the 4 course dinners of Juncker and his mob. I'm sure we can manage a small room and a few beds.

[SherzyK]

Wtf how did this become a conversation about Muslim women!? Literally zero comparison to the topic.

[Jessica.]

Wtf how did this become a conversation about Muslim women!? Literally zero comparison to the topic.:joker: I know, I'm baffled.

[Marsh.]

Wtf how did this become a conversation about Muslim women!? Literally zero comparison to the topic.

Muslim cats are people too. :oh:

[SherzyK]

Muslim cats are people too. :oh:

:joker: :joker:

Honestly the lengths that people would reach to try and validate a point is disgusting. If you have nothing else to argue then please don’t start throwing random comments to prove a point. You can slit my throat for saying this in a debates thread, but just accept defeat if you’re proven wrong.

:joker: I know, I'm baffled.

Its literally a joke at this point. These serious debates aren’t even serious

[Jessica.]

:joker: :joker:



Honestly the lengths that people would reach to try and validate a point is disgusting. If you have nothing else to argue then please don’t start throwing random comments to prove a point. You can slit my throat for saying this in a debates thread, but just accept defeat if you’re proven wrong.







Its literally a joke at this point. These serious debates aren’t even seriousWell, they've on gone quiet but I assume they are just trying to think of another way to twist the situation rather than accepting they're wrong. :joker:

[Marsh.]

Once we leave the EU, we'll have an extra few Bob to spend instead of paying for the 4 course dinners of Juncker and his mob. I'm sure we can manage a small room and a few beds.

Theresa May might move into more expensive accomodation with the extra cash?

[Northern Monkey]

The way to clear this up is simple....



Instead of having signs that say “Men” and “Women” just have a picture of a penis and balls on one and a vagina on the other.That way all you have to do is look in your pants and see which one best matches you.Then everybody knows where to go.

[Marsh.]

The way to clear this up is simple....



Instead of having signs that say “Men” and “Women” just have a picture of a penis and balls on one and a vagina on the other.That way all you have to do is look in your pants and see which one best matches you.Then everybody knows where to go.

The discussion is about transgender patients who haven't had reassignment surgery. :)

[Cherie]

Wtf how did this become a conversation about Muslim women!? Literally zero comparison to the topic.

:joker: I know, I'm baffled.

Wow does it need spelling out for you guys or are you really that ill informed :worry: maybe you don’t know any muslim women so I suggest reading up

I find it very worrying that people are quite happy to give up their rights in this way, it doesnt really matter whether YOU mind if you share a hospital ward, I particularly don’t care but I know plenty that would

[Northern Monkey]

The discussion is about transgender patients who haven't had reassignment surgery. :)

Well i agree with the first reply in the thread by Bots.

Medical treatment has to be determined by biological sex not gender.

You wouldn’t put a male with for example prostate issues on a female ward as it wouldn’t cater to their needs as well.

Males and females have different requirements

People are split up by sex for a few reasons.

There are certain areas in life where reality has to be recognised over feelings.

[Cherie]

Well, they've on gone quiet but I assume they are just trying to think of another way to twist the situation rather than accepting they're wrong. :joker:

Who are they? there is only one of me :smug:

[Cherie]

:hehe: What would they need accommodation for?

Oh dear

[Marsh.]

Wow does it need spelling out for you guys or are you really that ill informed :worry: maybe you don’t know any muslim women so I suggest reading up

I find it very worrying that people are quite happy to give up their rights in this way, it doesnt really matter whether YOU mind if you share a hospital ward, I particulrly don’t care but I know plenty that would

Yes and the main concern for caring about it seems to be the potential for some kind of sexual abuse/harassment.

.... in a place men have free access to.

[Cherie]

:joker: :joker:

Honestly the lengths that people would reach to try and validate a point is disgusting. If you have nothing else to argue then please don’t start throwing random comments to prove a point. You can slit my throat for saying this in a debates thread, but just accept defeat if you’re proven wrong.



Its literally a joke at this point. These serious debates aren’t even serious

Proven wrong about what? Having an opinion that is not the same as yours, not willing to have another womans right supersede mine...hows that tea for you?

[Marsh.]

Well i agree with the first reply in the thread by Bots.

Medical treatment has to be determined by biological sex not gender.

You wouldn’t put a male with for example prostate issues on a female ward as it wouldn’t cater to their needs as well.

Males and females have different requirements

People are split up by sex for a few reasons.

There are certain areas in life where reality has to be recognised over feelings.

Separation on gender not sex.

And, yes, I agree too that patients shouldn't be mixed and matched. But grouped dependant on their needs.

Some of those needs will lead to female only wards such as labour wards. Some won't.

[Cherie]

Yes and the main concern for caring about it seems to be the potential for some kind of sexual abuse/harassment.

.... in a place men have free access to.

That wasn’t my main concern

[Marsh.]

That wasn’t my main concern

So what is your main concern?

[Cherie]

So what is your main concern?

Read the thread I am not repeating myself

[Marsh.]

Read the thread I am not repeating myself

You wouldn't be.

You've stated that you're against it, and apart from a reference to Muslims and other cultures who would be against it, haven't explained why.

[Cherie]

You wouldn't be.

You've stated that you're against it, and apart from a reference to Muslims and other cultures who would be against it, haven't explained why.

Yes I have read the thread

[SherzyK]

Proven wrong about what? Having an opinion that is not the same as yours, not willing to have another womans right supersede mine...hows that tea for you?

You’re bringing up topics that have nothing to do with the debate at hand. You have every right to feel like that but argue something that’s relevant to what you’re talking about. And actually, I know plenty of Muslim people so don’t tell me who I know and don’t know. Ok?

[Cherie]

Those kinds of people would have all kinds of issues with the set up of a Western hospital regardless of any possible gender divide.

Does it require an entire restructure of our hospitals? Not really.

Those kinds of people as you refer to them make up 70 per cent if the area that I live in :umm2: Our hospitals are set up as are male and female in the main with the occasional mixed ward so no restructuring required

[Cherie]

You’re bringing up topics that have nothing to do with the debate at hand. You have every right to feel like that but argue something that’s relevant to what you’re talking about. And actually, I know plenty of Muslim people so don’t tell me who I know and don’t know. Ok?

Well you appeared not to know any, how was I supposed to know..ok?

[Marsh.]

Yes I have read the thread

You haven't. You've made some wild claims about cats, Muslims and abuse.

[SherzyK]

Well you appeared not to know any, how was I supposed to know..ok?

For the record, I have friends that are Muslims and the way you speak is really disgusting.

[Cherie]

You haven't. You've made some wild claims about cats, Muslims and abuse.

If you are too lazy to read the thread I cant help you

[Cherie]

For the record, I have friends that are Muslims and the way you speak is really disgusting.

What have I said that is disgusting....please point it out.....it was Marsh that said ‘those kind of people’ which I found disgusting but you seem to have no issue with?

[SherzyK]

What have I said that is disgusting....please point it out.....it was Marsh that said ‘those kind of people’ which I found disgusting but you seem to have no issue with?

You clearly instigated the argument about Muslims. Nothing would have been said had you not have brought it up. I’m not saying more on this, please educate yourself before making such remarks

[Marsh.]

If you are too lazy to read the thread I cant help you

It's not my fault you can't make a point.

[Cherie]

You clearly instigated the argument about Muslims. Nothing would have been said had you not have brought it up. I’m not saying more on this, please educate yourself before making such remarks

I was asking how muslim women could be accommodated in a mixed ward as it would be against their culture, if you can’t follow the thread thats not my issue

[Cherie]

It's not my fault you can't make a point.

My point seems to be irking plenty of you on this thread even if I can’t make one apparently

[Marsh.]

What have I said that is disgusting....please point it out.....it was Marsh that said ‘those kind of people’ which I found disgusting but you seem to have no issue with?

Erm... :umm2:

I responded to an unspecific comment "...what about the one where women cover their hair.." so "those kinds of people" refers to "people would have an issue with aspects of Western culture". Don't dare try to twist it into some kind of Islamic slur 2 pages later.

Muslims aren't the only people in the world who wear head scarves.

[Marsh.]

My point seems to be irking plenty of you on this thread even if I can’t make one apparently

Your random comparisons to cats and Muslims has confused me. What you personally have against mix gender wards we've yet to establish.

[Jessica.]

:hehe:

Oh dear

I'm well educated on Islam and I have Muslim and ex-Muslim friends. What is the problem with a Muslim woman sharing a ward with other people? Do trans people have x-ray vision now so that they can invade the curtains around someones bed and see them dressing or something?

[Cherie]

Your random comparisons to cats and Muslims has confused me. What you personally have against mix gender wards we've yet to establish.

Personally nothing as I have already mentioned in the thread, in the same post I did mention what my issue was, a quick read back for you as I made the point in the last hour ...

[Cherie]

I'm well educated on Islam and I have Muslim and ex-Muslim friends. What is the problem with a Muslim woman sharing a ward with other people? Do trans people have x-ray vision now so that they can invade the curtains around someones bed and see them dressing or something?

Okay so you are saying there would be no issues in that respect, well I think you are wrong

[Marsh.]

Personally nothing as I have already mentioned in the thread, in the same post I did mention what my issue was, a quick read back for you as I made the point in the last hour ...

I already addressed it which you denied.

But I'll let you get back to defending "women who cover their hair" from the big bad males.

[Jessica.]

Personally nothing as I have already mentioned in the thread, in the same post I did mention what my issue was, a quick read back for you as I made the point in the last hour ...So you're saying all Muslim women are transphobic? That's a reach.

[Cherie]

So you're saying all Muslim women are transphobic? That's a reach.


Nope I never said that, but it looks like that is what you think

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm well educated on Islam and I have Muslim and ex-Muslim friends.

:think:

ex-muslim friends you say

[user104658]

:think:

ex-muslim friends you say

I'd assume she means people from Muslim families / backgrounds who are not actually actively religious themselves. There were two Muslim kids at my high school (yes, only two, my school was so white-Scottish that Catholics were rare :joker: ) but neither of them were "actually Muslims", both were atheist.

I suppose in the same way I could be called "ex-Christian" :think:

[Niamh.]

I'd assume she means people from Muslim families / backgrounds who are not actually actively religious themselves. There were two Muslim kids at my high school (yes, only two, my school was so white-Scottish that Catholics were rare :joker: ) but neither of them were "actually Muslims", both were atheist.

I suppose in the same way I could be called "ex-Christian" :think:

Yeah i would say I'm ex catholic, most people don't get a choice as to what religion they're born into

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yeah i would say I'm ex catholic, most people don't get a choice as to what religion they're born into

hence the reason these vile cults prosper especially in poorly educated countries

[smudgie]

I just can’t see a problem here.
Firstly, mixed wards are or were the norm, but I have never seen mixed sexes/genders allocated to the same room.
The only time the men and women would meet was in the day room or the corridors.
I have absolutely no problem being admitted to a mixed ward, just as long as they have enough privacy available to all.
As an older person, I would have no issues with sharing a room with a trans person, more concerned about anyone snoring and keeping me awake.:blush:

[Cherie]

I just can’t see a problem here.
Firstly, mixed wards are or were the norm, but I have never seen mixed sexes/genders allocated to the same room.
The only time the men and women would meet was in the day room or the corridors.
I have absolutely no problem being admitted to a mixed ward, just as long as they have enough privacy available to all.
As an older person, I would have no issues with sharing a room with a trans person, more concerned about anyone snoring and keeping me awake.:blush:

Yes Smudgie and that is your right, but as it stands if you did have an issue on cultural, religious or personal grounds your rights are less than the trans person, are you happy with giving every one else rights away based on your own personal preferences?

[user104658]

Yes Smudgie and that is your right, but as it stands if you did have an issue on cultural, religious or personal grounds your rights are less than the trans person, are you happy with giving every one else rights away based on your own personal preferences?

Is intolerance a "right"? :think:...

Also, your suggesting is that transfemales shouldn't be on female wards, but on male wards instead. It's perfectly feasible that a male on THAT ward could have a personal or religious issue with transgendered people. So then what?

[Cherie]

Is intolerance a "right"? :think:...

Also, your suggesting is that transfemales shouldn't be on female wards, but on male wards instead. It's perfectly feasible that a male on THAT ward could have a personal or religious issue with transgendered people. So then what?

No I am not saying that at all, I would suggest a mixed ward would be the place, I don't think someone who self identified as a man or a woman last week should have the automatic right to go on a male only or female only ward.

You are asking about intolerance, what about someone whose religious belief does not allow them to be on the same ward as a male or female, what happens then, whose rights are more important?

[user104658]

No I am not saying that at all, I would suggest a mixed ward would be the place, I don't think someone who self identified as a man or a woman last week should have the automatic right to go on a male only or female only ward.

You are asking about intolerance, what about someone whose religious belief does not allow them to be on the same ward as a male or female, what happens then, whose rights are more important?

If a mixed ward exists then why wouldn't all wards be mixed? Also, in terms of the latter argument, it would be entirely that individual's choice to not be on a ward and they can go home :shrug:. In terms of rights, there's a huge difference between "I don't want to" and "you're not allowed to". They're not being denied a place anywhere, they're not being told they "must" do anything.

[Cherie]

If a mixed ward exists then why wouldn't all wards be mixed? Also, in terms of the latter argument, it would be entirely that individual's choice to not be on a ward and they can go home :shrug:. In terms of rights, there's a huge difference between "I don't want to" and "you're not allowed to". They're not being denied a place anywhere, they're not being told they "must" do anything.

In all hospitals there are male wards, female wards and mixed wards unless it is different in Scotland?

[Marsh.]

Yes Smudgie and that is your right, but as it stands if you did have an issue on cultural, religious or personal grounds your rights are less than the trans person, are you happy with giving every one else rights away based on your own personal preferences?

By the same token, why should a religious persons personal preference come before that of a transperson?

No rights are being denied here.

[Cherie]

By the same token, why should a religious persons personal preference come before that of a transperson?

No rights are being denied here.

West Suffolk NHS Trust said the transgender patient’s right to be in a single sex environment of their preferred gender “supersedes objections raised by other patients” despite women and men having a right to segregated facilities under the Equality Act 2010. It said that while a female victim of sexual assault could “reasonably” object to being on the same ward as someone they “perceive to be male”, staff should “seek the view of the trans service user” before any action was taken.


I am reading that as the trans person has more rights than anyone else? How are you interpreting it?

[Alf]

I'd assume she means people from Muslim families / backgrounds who are not actually actively religious themselves. There were two Muslim kids at my high school (yes, only two, my school was so white-Scottish that Catholics were rare :joker: ) but neither of them were "actually Muslims", both were atheist.

I suppose in the same way I could be called "ex-Christian" :think:Wow! your school in Scotland was so White and Scottish, that's shocking. That's like schools in China being all Chinese or schools in Kenya being all Kenyan or schools in Japan being all Japanese or schools in Nigeria being all Nigerian. It just wouldn't happen, because they're not racist, Scotland must be racist for having a school so White and Scottish?

My point is, why did you bring up your school being so white and Scottish?

Let me tell you about my school, there was zero Muslims and I only remember 2 black people, the rest were white. It was forced upon me, I had no control of it, it's not my fault.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Wow! your school in Scotland was so White and Scottish, that's shocking. That's like schools in China being all Chinese or schools in Kenya being all Kenyan or schools in Japan being all Japanese or schools in Nigeria being all Nigerian. It just wouldn't happen, because they're not racist, Scotland must be racist for having a school so White and Scottish?

My point is, why did you bring up your school being so white and Scottish?

Let me tell you about my school, there was zero Muslims and I only remember 2 black people, the rest were white. It was forced upon me, I had no control of it, it's not my fault.

we had a Chinese guy and a Pakistani boy and that was it at secondary - i dont recall anyone who wasnt white Scottish at primary

The Chinese boy told the headmaster I dropped a metal sharpner on his head from 3 floors up and I got into big trouble so i want keen on him. :oh:

[Marsh.]

West Suffolk NHS Trust said the transgender patient’s right to be in a single sex environment of their preferred gender “supersedes objections raised by other patients” despite women and men having a right to segregated facilities under the Equality Act 2010. It said that while a female victim of sexual assault could “reasonably” object to being on the same ward as someone they “perceive to be male”, staff should “seek the view of the trans service user” before any action was taken.


I am reading that as the trans person has more rights than anyone else? How are you interpreting it?

I'm interpreting it as anybody who objects to a specific dangerous individual or has valid reason to be uncomfortable will be dealt with.

Someone who just doesn't tolerate a transperson I imagine would be treated like someone refusing to share a ward with a black person. Either take the bed or don't, that's your choice.

I don't think the answer is to mollycoddle intolerant people who are stuck in the dark ages in regards to LGBTQ people being treated like perverts.

Wards are not secure units divided by gender anyway so any backlash is absurd.

The example quoted of a rape survivor not wanting to be on a ward with a penis is quite OTT. I imagine in an extreme case like this she would be given a private room anyway, as that is not a regular occurence. It's an exception.

[Alf]

we had a Chinese guy and a Pakistani boy and that was it at secondary - i dont recall anyone who wasnt white Scottish at primary

The Chinese boy told the headmaster I dropped a metal sharpner on his head from 3 floors up and I got into big trouble so i want keen on him. :oh:I remember the film Gregory's Girl, the school in that was all white and Scottish, how did they get away with it? but at least it showed that girls could play football better than the boys.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I remember the film Gregory's Girl, the school in that was all white and Scottish, how did they get away with it? but at least it showed that girls could play football better than the boys.

Abronhill High School (gregorys girl) was a mile or so up the road from the High School I first went to. we used to have fights with them.

naturally both have been pulled down now as has the high school i went to after that one

:oh:

[Alf]

Abronhill High School (gregorys girl) was a mile or so up the road from the High School I first went to. we used to have fights with them.

naturally both have been pulled down now as has the high school i went to after that one

:oh:Both my schools are pulled down. One is now an Asda and one is now houses. My history has been erased, but I don't complain.

[bots]

Abronhill High School (gregorys girl) was a mile or so up the road from the High School I first went to. we used to have fights with them.

naturally both have been pulled down now as has the high school i went to after that one

:oh:

i believe Claire Grogan suffered a similar fate when she sang happy birthday

[Cherie]

I'm interpreting it as anybody who objects to a specific dangerous individual or has valid reason to be uncomfortable will be dealt with.

Someone who just doesn't tolerate a transperson I imagine would be treated like someone refusing to share a ward with a black person. Either take the bed or don't, that's your choice.

I don't think the answer is to mollycoddle intolerant people who are stuck in the dark ages in regards to LGBTQ people being treated like perverts.

Wards are not secure units divided by gender anyway so any backlash is absurd.

The example quoted of a rape survivor not wanting to be on a ward with a penis is quite OTT. I imagine in an extreme case like this she would be given a private room anyway, as that is not a regular occurence. It's an exception.

It doesn't really matter if it is an exception, what I read from that was the 'rape case' had to be discussed with the trans person so they could agree with the outcome, and who are you to say what is OTT in the rape victims case :umm2:

[Marsh.]

It doesn't really matter if it is an exception, what I read from that was the 'rape case' had to be discussed with the trans person so they could agree with the outcome, and who are you to say what is OTT in the rape victims case :umm2:

The whole point of me pointing out it is an exception is that it's a special circumstance that's not going to happen very often. Therefore any "rules" being discussed are useless when discussing a hypothetical special circumstance as the usual rules rarely apply in those situations.

Kind of like what a wheelchair user might think of the new urinals.

As for what "could" happen, that's just what sticks out to me. An article making guesses as to what "could" happen in such an exceptional circumstance. In practice, I highly doubt it. Normal, rational people which hopefully make up the majority of our population would come to a compromise.

Then again, we had a woman being racially abused on an airplane and she was the one shooed away to hide in the corner. :shrug:

[Cherie]

The whole point of me pointing out it is an exception is that it's a special circumstance that's not going to happen very often. Therefore any "rules" being discussed are useless when discussing a hypothetical special circumstance as the usual rules rarely apply in those situations.

Kind of like what a wheelchair user might think of the new urinals.

As for what "could" happen, that's just what sticks out to me. An article making guesses as to what "could" happen in such an exceptional circumstance. In practice, I highly doubt it. Normal, rational people which hopefully make up the majority of our population would come to a compromise.

Then again, we had a woman being racially abused on an airplane and she was the one shooed away to hide in the corner. :shrug:

and the airline was brought to book for it and will be paying handsomely for discomfort

We are not talking about hypothetical heres, have you read the OP article at all? we are talking about rights being taken away with no consultation whatsover

[Marsh.]

and the airline was brought to book for it and will be paying handsomely for discomfort

We are not talking about hypothetical heres, have you read the OP article at all? we are talking about rights being taken away with no consultation whatsover

You literally just brought a hypothetical situation up into our discussion about what "could" happen. That is a hypothetical.

No "right" has been taken away from anyone.

[Cherie]

You literally just brought a hypothetical situation up into our discussion about what "could" happen. That is a hypothetical.

No "right" has been taken away from anyone.


Read the article why don't you or do you want me to read it to you?

[Marsh.]

Read the article why don't you or do you want me to read it to you?

Just double checked my last post. Thought I posted in French by mistake.

Nope it's all there and above board.

Here it is again. No. Right. Is. Being. Taken. Away.

[Jessica.]

I think most people would just be happy to be looked after by the NHS and there isn't really a reason to get offended for them and think up things that could "possibly" be offensive. No rights have been taken away, nobody is getting special treatment, they are just taking care of people who already have enough prejudice against them. If you see it differently then it must be a problem that you have yourself.

[Livia]

No penises in women only spaces. The only exception should be if you are in the process of transitioning but haven't yet reached surgery.

Anyone "identifying" as female ( because it's never the female to male trans people who have a problem...) should be on a male ward.

[user104658]

No penises in women only spaces. The only exception should be if you are in the process of transitioning but haven't yet reached surgery.

Anyone "identifying" as female ( because it's never the female to male trans people who have a problem...) should be on a male ward.

As far as I can tell the only people who DO have a problem with any of it are straight women :think:.

I mean I get it, it's fear-based, on the notion that they might somehow be in danger but honestly since when did we start structuring our lives and public services around people being worried about hypothetical situations? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter that people are afraid, but surely we have to base things on what's actually rational.

[Livia]

As far as I can tell the only people who DO have a problem with any of it are straight women :think:.

I mean I get it, it's fear-based, on the notion that they might somehow be in danger but honestly since when did we start structuring our lives and public services around people being worried about hypothetical situations? I'm not saying that it doesn't matter that people are afraid, but surely we have to base things on what's actually rational.

That's because having female only spaces invaded by penises only affects women. And actually, I'm not any surer than you are that lesbians are okay with it.

[user104658]

That's because having female only spaces invaded by penises only affects women. And actually, I'm not any surer than you are that lesbians are okay with it.And disallowing it only affects trans women, so why would the rights of one demographic automatically trump the rights of another? Especially as it seems that it's a minority of women who are actually uncomfortable with it, with the majority not actually caring much either way.

The argument seems to be that it's a privacy / comfort / dignity thing but that should be the default in any hospital setting. Certainly it shouldn't be assumed that these things are less important in a same-gendered situation, there are plenty of people who want privacy regardless, and the idea that "it doesn't matter because it's just other folks of the same gender" is wildly outdated.

[Livia]

And disallowing it only affects trans women, so why would the rights of one demographic automatically trump the rights of another? Especially as it seems that it's a minority of women who are actually uncomfortable with it, with the majority not actually caring much either way.

The argument seems to be that it's a privacy / comfort / dignity thing but that should be the default in any hospital setting. Certainly it shouldn't be assumed that these things are less important in a same-gendered situation, there are plenty of people who want privacy regardless, and the idea that "it doesn't matter because it's just other folks of the same gender" is wildly outdated.


Yeah, why, after centuries of oppression, should women have a say about their own safety, because it might upset a man who, after all the privileges of being raised male, identifies as a woman.

This doesn't affect trans women at all. Trans women in the process of transitioning who have had or will have surgery... I have no problem with them and would be happy to share a changing room, a toilet, a ward...

Men who "identify" as women but have no interest in transitioning, they should be put in a ward where everyone else has a penis too.

And incidentally, when it comes to women's rights, I'm not comfortable with anyone with a penis changing the rules.

[thesheriff443]

Yeah, why, after centuries of oppression, should women have a say about their own safety, because it might upset a man who, after all the privileges of being raised male, identifies as a woman.

This doesn't affect trans women at all. Trans women in the process of transitioning who have had or will have surgery... I have no problem with them and would be happy to share a changing room, a toilet, a ward...

Men who "identify" as women but have no interest in transitioning, they should be put in a ward where everyone else has a penis too.

And incidentally, when it comes to women's rights, I'm not comfortable with anyone with a penis changing the rules.

I’m pretty sure a penis has put a smile on your face more than once.

[Niamh.]

I’m pretty sure a penis has put a smile on your face more than once.

:rolleyes:

[thesheriff443]

:rolleyes:

Well some of is men are are more than a penis

[Crimson Dynamo]

what about at a swimming pool?

women in Bath are complaining that men are walking around the communal showers naked, they demand some privacy and respect

[user104658]

what about at a swimming pool?

women in Bath are complaining that men are walking around the communal showers naked, they demand some privacy and respect

Again comparing apples to oranges; no it's not OK for people to walk around communal changing areas naked... but at last check, it was also not OK for people to walk around hospital wards naked. Maybe things have changed since I last visited one :think:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Again comparing apples to oranges; no it's not OK for people to walk around communal changing areas naked... but at last check, it was also not OK for people to walk around hospital wards naked. Maybe things have changed since I last visited one :think:

surely oranges and bananas?

[thesheriff443]

No I’m not getting in the life boat there is a man dressed as a woman sitting in it.

[user104658]

surely grapefruit and bananas?

Fixed

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AO1ZlXjKBQk/hqdefault.jpg

[Cherie]

Just double checked my last post. Thought I posted in French by mistake.

Nope it's all there and above board.

Here it is again. No. Right. Is. Being. Taken. Away.

So the 'rape victims' needs being discussed and approved with the trans person isn't a right being taken away?

[Livia]

I’m pretty sure a penis has put a smile on your face more than once.

That's just the level of comment I would expect from you.

[Marsh.]

So the 'rape victims' needs being discussed and approved with the trans person isn't a right being taken away?

Another hypothetical?

[Marsh.]

Yeah, why, after centuries of oppression, should women have a say about their own safety, because it might upset a man who, after all the privileges of being raised male, identifies as a woman.

This doesn't affect trans women at all. Trans women in the process of transitioning who have had or will have surgery... I have no problem with them and would be happy to share a changing room, a toilet, a ward...

Men who "identify" as women but have no interest in transitioning, they should be put in a ward where everyone else has a penis too.

And incidentally, when it comes to women's rights, I'm not comfortable with anyone with a penis changing the rules.

Why on earth would a transwoman make you feel unsafe?

[Livia]

Why on earth would a transwoman make you feel unsafe?

Where have I said that? Didn't you read what I said, Marshy?

Men who "self identify as women" are not welcome, as far as I'm concerned, in women only spaces.

[Marsh.]

Where have I said that? Didn't you read what I said, Marshy?

Yeah, why, after centuries of oppression, should women have a say about their own safety, because it might upset a man who, after all the privileges of being raised male, identifies as a woman.

Why would this particular discussion require you to say this unless you think transgender women being on the same ward as women somehow makes them unsafe?


Men who "self identify as women" are not welcome, as far as I'm concerned, in women only spaces.

The "women only spaces" that are open to everyone?

[ethanjames]

hi! a lot of people in this thread are speaking on my behalf as a trans ftm person who is pre op (though i have been on testosterone for a few months now!) and though i cannot speak for all trans people i would feel much more comfortable in a male ward than a female since that is what i identify as. most wards are mixed though from what i can remember so i don't quite see the issue here... but if there has to be gendered wards i think that if the person has some sort of proof they identify as that gender whether that is doctor diagnosed gender dysphoria or whatnot i dont see the problem whatsoever! you could always ask for a private ward if you are that concerned about trans people.

[thesheriff443]

That's just the level of comment I would expect from you.

Well you started throwing penises around so I had to reply with something on the the same par.

[Crimson Dynamo]

hi! a lot of people in this thread are speaking on my behalf as a trans ftm person who is pre op (though i have been on testosterone for a few months now!) and though i cannot speak for all trans people i would feel much more comfortable in a male ward than a female since that is what i identify as. most wards are mixed though from what i can remember so i don't quite see the issue here... but if there has to be gendered wards i think that if the person has some sort of proof they identify as that gender whether that is doctor diagnosed gender dysphoria or whatnot i dont see the problem whatsoever! you could always ask for a private ward if you are that concerned about trans people.

the thread was started for all to comment and not a trans people only comment thread as it is something that affects all hospital patients

[thesheriff443]

hi! a lot of people in this thread are speaking on my behalf as a trans ftm person who is pre op (though i have been on testosterone for a few months now!) and though i cannot speak for all trans people i would feel much more comfortable in a male ward than a female since that is what i identify as. most wards are mixed though from what i can remember so i don't quite see the issue here... but if there has to be gendered wards i think that if the person has some sort of proof they identify as that gender whether that is doctor diagnosed gender dysphoria or whatnot i dont see the problem whatsoever! you could always ask for a private ward if you are that concerned about trans people.

Hello, welcome to the forum.

[thesheriff443]

the thread was started for all to comment and not a trans people only comment thread as it is something that affects all hospital patients

Well the only ones offended in this thread are women not wanting a pre op trans on their ward.

[user104658]

the thread was started for all to comment and not a trans people only comment thread as it is something that affects all hospital patients

I believe ethanjames is referring to the fact that some members have taken it upon themselves to express the views of female-to-male transexuals, e.g. by stating that it's "only male-to-female transexuals who have a problem" and that F-to-M's are compliant and won't complain about being on female wards.

[bots]

So many people are missing the point here. Hospitals are full of people at their most vulnerable. The system should not be setup to allow those vulnerable people to be at the mercy of someone pretending to be something they are not, in order to take advantage. That is the crux of the issue, all the rest is noise and people sabre rattling for their own agenda.

[Niamh.]

hi! a lot of people in this thread are speaking on my behalf as a trans ftm person who is pre op (though i have been on testosterone for a few months now!) and though i cannot speak for all trans people i would feel much more comfortable in a male ward than a female since that is what i identify as. most wards are mixed though from what i can remember so i don't quite see the issue here... but if there has to be gendered wards i think that if the person has some sort of proof they identify as that gender whether that is doctor diagnosed gender dysphoria or whatnot i dont see the problem whatsoever! you could always ask for a private ward if you are that concerned about trans people.

Hey Ethan, I think it's just this self ID stuff that people are a bit more wary of (although I agree about hospital wards, I'm not even sure if they're segregated by sex here, I know I've been in mixed day wards)

[Niamh.]

Hello, welcome to the forum.

He isn't a new member :laugh:

[ethanjames]

the thread was started for all to comment and not a trans people only comment thread as it is something that affects all hospital patients

where did i say people couldnt comment? people have just been commenting on what trans ftm people think but arent actually trans themselves. thought i should clear the air. :)

[thesheriff443]

He isn't a new member :laugh:

I know and I don’t welcome new members.

[ethanjames]

I believe ethanjames is referring to the fact that some members have taken it upon themselves to express the views of female-to-male transexuals, e.g. by stating that it's "only male-to-female transexuals who have a problem" and that F-to-M's are compliant and won't complain about being on female wards.

this is what i meant! if that wasnt brought up i probably wouldnt comment!

[user104658]

The system should not be setup to allow those vulnerable people to be at the mercy of someone pretending to be something they are not, in order to take advantage.

It's an imagined risk, the idea that hordes of male predators will be declaring themselves women in order to get onto a female hospital ward and prey on sick people is panic-logic. And if that did happen and those patients would be at risk, then the problem is much bigger than who is and isn't admitted to each ward, as visiting hours are near unlimited these days and so people who want to prey on people in hospital can literally just walk in off the street. Wards are busy and full of patients, staff and visitors and should be safe for everyone. If they're not then there's a much bigger security issue than "covert perverts" pretending to be women :facepalm:.

It's the exact same panic-logic that applies to the female bathroom debate. "If men can self ID as women then they will be able to walk into female public bathrooms and attack people!" ... as though there's currently a mystical forcefield that keeps penises out of women's bathrooms. Not to scare everyone but hey... guess what... if an attacker wants to get you in a women's bathroom right now, he can just walk right in. He doesn't need to declare "I am a woman" to the door to make it open. Unbelievable, isn't it?

[ethanjames]

Hey Ethan, I think it's just this self ID stuff that people are a bit more wary of (although I agree about hospital wards, I'm not even sure if they're segregated by sex here, I know I've been in mixed day wards)

i think if this was a discussion about prisons or something it would be a different discussion but i genuinely cannot see the issue with hospitals. i do understand the worry about self identifying though.

[ethanjames]

Hello, welcome to the forum.

not new but hi :)

[Cherie]

Another hypothetical?

Aren't most laws made on hypotheticals, ie the worst that can happen, covering all eventualties? no point closing the stable door after the horse has bolted


Following on from your stance, would you put your child on an adult ward?

[Niamh.]

i think if this was a discussion about prisons or something it would be a different discussion but i genuinely cannot see the issue with hospitals. i do understand the worry about self identifying though.

Yeah agree with that tbf

[Cherie]

not new but hi :)

Your situation is different,you are in transition, what we are talking about here is someone self iding and who has made no moves to transition at all

[thesheriff443]

this is what i meant! if that wasnt brought up i probably wouldnt comment!

But you should comment on subjects that you have a real opinion on because so think being trans is something you choose to do.

[user104658]

i think if this was a discussion about prisons or something it would be a different discussion but i genuinely cannot see the issue with hospitals. i do understand the worry about self identifying though.

I agree; when it comes to prisons, women's refuge centres, etc. then there's a bigger debate to be had but the logic with hospitals / public bathrooms etc. is completely disjointed... I genuinely think it's based far more on people's "that ain't right!" gut reaction and very little objective rational thought has gone into considering the actual risk if there even is one. The reasoning for why it shouldn't be allowed is consistently just assumptions, worries and imaginings... not a trace of reasoned logic or statistical fact. "They might" this, "what if" that.

[ethanjames]

Your situation is different,you are in transition, what we are talking about here is someone self iding and who has made no moves to transition at all

prior me being on testosterone id still take the same stance of wanting to be in the male area. i went to an all male school for years and barely anything happened. dont see how this is much different.

[Cherie]

prior me being on testosterone id still take the same stance of wanting to be in the male area. i went to an all male school for years and barely anything happened. dont see how this is much different.

what do you mean by this?

[ethanjames]

I agree; when it comes to prisons, women's refuge centres, etc. then there's a bigger debate to be had but the logic with hospitals / public bathrooms etc. is completely disjointed... I genuinely think it's based far more on people's "that ain't right!" gut reaction and very little objective rational thought has gone into considering the actual risk if there even is one. The reasoning for why it shouldn't be allowed is consistently just assumptions, worries and imaginings... not a trace of reasoned logic or statistical fact. "They might" this, "what if" that.

completely agree!

[ethanjames]

what do you mean by this?

as in i got no abuse from the other men and i felt fairly safe.

[Cherie]

I agree; when it comes to prisons, women's refuge centres, etc. then there's a bigger debate to be had but the logic with hospitals / public bathrooms etc. is completely disjointed... I genuinely think it's based far more on people's "that ain't right!" gut reaction and very little objective rational thought has gone into considering the actual risk if there even is one. The reasoning for why it shouldn't be allowed is consistently just assumptions, worries and imaginings... not a trace of reasoned logic or statistical fact. "They might" this, "what if" that.

Would you put your child on an adult ward for an overnight stay?

[user104658]

Aren't most laws made on hypotheticals, ie the worst that can happen, covering all eventualties? no point closing the stable door after the horse has bolted


Realistic hypotheticals. Not on the idea that there are going to be cackling 6ft bricklayers declaring themselves "Jenny" to touch up a mumsnet member while she's getting her gallbladder out (when they could just have trotted in during visiting hours - which are all day - to do the same thing, without having LITERALLY ALL OF THEIR PERSONAL DETAILS ON RECORD). It's ludicrous.

"Hello my name is Robert Smith, my home address is ______, here's my National Insurance number and all of my contact details, OH btw I go by Susan and would like into your female wards. What for? For rape, obviously.
It's a flawless plan and I will never get caught."

[Cherie]

Realistic hypotheticals. Not on the idea that there are going to be cackling 6ft bricklayers declaring themselves "Jenny" to touch up a mumsnet member while she's getting her gallbladder out (when they could just have trotted in during visiting hours - which are all day - to do the same thing, without having LITERALLY ALL OF THEIR PERSONAL DETAILS ON RECORD). It's ludicrous.

"Hello my name is Robert Smith, my home address is ______, here's my National Insurance number and all of my contact details, OH btw I go by Susan and would like into your female wards. What for? For rape, obviously.
It's a flawless plan and I will never get caught."

Well I doubt anyone thought that woman who was in a coma in Arizona would end up having a baby either but there you have it, strange things do happen on a very small percentage that doesn't mean we shouldnt allow for them to happen...freak accidents etc?

[user104658]

Would you put your child on an adult ward for an overnight stay?

I'd stay with either of my children regardless of what ward they were on but yes; I would have no more problem with them being on an adult ward than a children's ward. My eldest would probably prefer it :shrug:.

It's not an accurate comparison anyway because when it comes to abuse, the added risk to children from adults is coercion / naivety.

[user104658]

Well I doubt anyone thought that woman who was in a coma in Arizona would end up having a baby either but there you have it, strange things do happen on a very small percentage that doesn't mean we shouldnt allow for them to happen...freak accidents etc?

This goes against your point more than it proves it; it's highly likely that she was assaulted by a member of staff. So as I said above, the issue (when there is one) is general overall security and not which patients are or aren't admitted to the ward.

If the wards are open and properly monitored then no one can assault anyone, whether they be male, female, trans, patient, staff or visitor.

[Cherie]

I'd stay with either of my children regardless of what ward they were on but yes; I would have no more problem with them being on an adult ward than a children's ward. My eldest would probably prefer it :shrug:.

It's not an accurate comparison anyway because when it comes to abuse, the added risk to children from adults is coercion / naivety.


but there is nothing to fear surely? its a hospital after all, nothing bad will happen

[Cherie]

This goes against your point more than it proves it; it's highly likely that she was assaulted by a member of staff. So as I said above, the issue (when there is one) is general overall security and not which patients are or aren't admitted to the ward.

If the wards are open and properly monitored then no one can assault anyone, whether they be male, female, trans, patient, staff or visitor.

No it doesn't go against my point, it proves my point that anything can happen, you don't know that it was a staff member either

[user104658]

No it doesn't go against my point, it proves my point that anything can happen, you don't know that it was a staff member either

It's highly likely to have been a staff member and staff members are being investigated. But maybe it was a transexual in the next room, faking a coma, but secretly sneaking around at night to attack people.

It goes against your point because restricting which patients are or aren't allowed on the ward would have made ZERO difference in this case... whereas making sure that the ward was generally safe and secure by being open / transparent / monitored would have stopped it from happening.

[thesheriff443]

It’s like a vegetarian being afraid of someone who eats meat, well they eat meat so they might eat me.

Better not take the chance.

[ethanjames]

It’s like a vegetarian being afraid of someone who eats meat, well they eat meat so they might eat me.

Better not take the chance.

:joker:

[Livia]

Most people in hospital wards, I think I'm fright in saying, will be older people, the elderly and frail. **** them, eh? What do they matter.

No penises on female only wards. The only exception should be, in my opinion, is for transwomen who are in the process but have not yet had surgery.

[user104658]

Most people in hospital wards, I think I'm fright in saying, will be older people, the elderly and frail. **** them, eh? What do they matter.

The elderly and frail will be on geriatric wards so this argument is moot; it's about gender not people self-IDing as a pensioner.

[Niamh.]

I guess the issue is or maybe the question I suppose, does allowing self IDing in this situation allow it in all situations? as in is it a rule specific to just hospitals or if it's allowed in Hospitals does that mean it's allowed everywhere including places where it's very possible it would be abused like Prisons?

[Livia]

The elderly and frail will be on geriatric wards so this argument is moot; it's about gender not people self-IDing as a pensioner.

Firstly, this argument is NOT moot until you've seen my local hospital, and hospitals across the country.

No one's talking about people self-IDing as pensioners. Not sure how you could have reached that conclusion from what I said.

It's obvious you are not able to discuss this with me TS.

[Livia]

I guess the issue is or maybe the question I suppose, does allowing self IDing in this situation allow it in all situations? as in is it a rule specific to just hospitals or if it's allowed in Hospitals does that mean it's allowed everywhere including places where it's very possible it would be abused like Prisons?

I don't know, Niamh. We should probably ask a man.

Where's Vicky? She's always so eloquent on this subject...

[Niamh.]

I don't know, Niamh. We should probably ask a man.

Where's Vicky? She's always so eloquent on this subject...

I know, I miss her around here :bawling: