Steven Avery case

[chuff me dizzy]

At long last this poor man has won the right to appeal in the biggest cover up crime Ive ever known

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47380658?fbclid=IwAR014ppCSU-SWX7j85r9mKPRHpE1Tf6FHPd7S6x-iFSlmtzpY3nZmACrysc

[Niamh.]

Guilty as sin imo

[chuff me dizzy]

Guilty as sin imo

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Theresas brother and ex boyfriend are who i think did it ,did you watch it all on Netflix ?

[Smithy]

Great News :clap1:

Kathleen will DESTROY the attempted prosecution case, the amount of evidence tampering and rules which they broke was insane

[Marsh.]

"Poor man"

:skull:

[Niamh.]

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Theresas brother and ex boyfriend are who i think did it ,did you watch it all on Netflix ?

I watched the first series then did a load of reading up afterwards and I think he definitely did it. I started watching the second but I found it so biased It annoyed me. Peter Hyatt did a good statement analysis on him. Also, I wouldn't say "poor" him anything he's done some horrible **** besides that (that were very glossed over in the documentary. Brendan dassey also told his mother in a recorded phone conversation that Steve sexually abused him

http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/12/steve-averys-statement-at-sentencing.html

[Niamh.]

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Theresas brother and ex boyfriend are who i think did it ,did you watch it all on Netflix ?

Why would her brother want to kill her? Makes zero sense and also, I found how netflix tried to point blame at the victims family was disgusting. I think we all forgot who the actual victim was in that story through the documentary and it wasn't the cat torturing, woman assaulter ..........

Did you know that Teresa specifically told her boss that Steve creeped her out and she didn't want to go to do his cars anymore, he gave a fake name that last time, he then phoned her 3 times that day hiding his number and once after she'd disappeared when he didn't hide his number

[Smithy]

I watched the first series then did a load of reading up afterwards and I think he definitely did it. I started watching the second but I found it so biased It annoyed me. Peter Hyatt did a good statement analysis on him. Also, I wouldn't say "poor" him anything he's done some horrible **** besides that (that were very glossed over in the documentary. Brendan dassey also told his mother in a recorded phone conversation that Steve sexually abused him

http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/12/steve-averys-statement-at-sentencing.html

Put him on trial for those crimes then, not something he didn’t do

[Niamh.]

Put him on trial for those crimes then, not something he didn’t do

He did do it imo

[Niamh.]

although no matter what he would be charged with now he'd think he'd get off with it now probably

[Smithy]

Why would her brother want to kill her? Makes zero sense and also, I found how netflix tried to point blame at the victims family was disgusting. I think we all forgot who the actual victim was in that story through the documentary and it wasn't the cat torturing, woman assaulter ..........

Did you know that Teresa specifically told her boss that Steve creeped her out and she didn't want to go to do his cars anymore, he gave a fake name that last time, he then phoned her 3 times that day hiding his number and once after she'd disappeared when he didn't hide his number

In S2 they don’t point at the victims family, they point to another member of Stevens, they also imply the boyfriend was aware of the framing as he had her diary which was in her car the day she went missing

[Denver]

He was already framed once by the police so I'm not sure if he is guilty or has been framed again

[Niamh.]

He was already framed once by the police so I'm not sure if he is guilty or has been framed again

He wasn't actually "framed" by the Police the first time (although they didn't act on it when another prisoner years later confessed). Steve was known to the Police in the area ( no matter how the documentary tried to excuse his bad behaviour before the rape case) He was sent to prison because the woman who was raped mistakenly identified him (he did look similar to the guy who actually did it) Also, part of that sentence was for something he did do which was running a woman off the road and pulling a gun on her

[Denver]

He wasn't actually "framed" by the Police the first time (although they didn't act on it when another prisoner years later confessed). Steve was known to the Police in the area ( no matter how the documentary tried to excuse his bad behaviour before the rape case) He was sent to prison because the woman who was raped mistakenly identified him (he did look similar to the guy who actually did it) Also, part of that sentence was for something he did do which was running a woman off the road and pulling a gun on her

But they had the evidence to prove he didn't do it at the time and disregarded it

[Niamh.]

But they had the evidence to prove he didn't do it at the time and disregarded it

Was that a ticket stub for something or a receipt? They also had the victim saying it was him

[Niamh.]

Here's a good article for balance :hee:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/12/11/making-a-murderers-steven-avery-is-still-guilty-as-hell/

[Glenn.]

Just shut up with your stupid opinion Nimah he’s innocent

[Niamh.]

Just shut up with your stupid opinion Nimah he’s innocent

:oh:

People could atleast read the other side not just swallow Netflixs narrative. The amazing Kathleen Zellner only agreed to take the case after the documentary made him famous, she'd been ignoring his case for 4 years previous ....probably because she knew he was guilty as sin

[Glenn.]

:oh:

People could atleast read the other side not just swallow Netflixs narrative. The amazing Kathleen Zellner only agreed to take the case after the documentary made him famous, she'd been ignoring his case for 4 years previous ....probably because she knew he was guilty as sin

How dare you speak ill of Kathleen. She says in s2 that she wouldn’t have taken the case if she believed he was guilty. And she literally ripped the case to pieces. She is a queen.

[Marsh.]

Ok I have my doubts about Avery.

But don't you DARE start on our Kath!!!

[Niamh.]

How dare you speak ill of Kathleen. She says in s2 that she wouldn’t have taken the case if she believed he was guilty. And she literally ripped the case to pieces. She is a queen.

How dd she rip the case to pieces? By trying to blame Brendans brother? :laugh2: Read the article I posted or continue to defend an animal torturing, paedo rapist, whatever :idc:

[Niamh.]

Ok I have my doubts about Avery.

But don't you DARE start on our Kath!!!

It's ok I don't blame her for wanting a bit of lime light :hehe:

[Denver]

Was that a ticket stub for something or a receipt? They also had the victim saying it was him

Also 10 unconnected people who saw him there at the time the ticket said so

[Glenn.]

How dd she rip the case to pieces? By trying to blame Brendans brother? :laugh2: Read the article I posted or continue to defend an animal torturing, paedo rapist, whatever :idc:

Ok I will

[Niamh.]

Also 10 unconnected people who saw him there at the time the ticket said so

Yeah but the woman genuinely believed that it was Steve, they did look alot alike tbf.

What's ironic is that the new DNA evidence that saved Steve that time is what he's trying to tell us is unreliable now ...........

[Glenn.]

Still think he’s innocent

[Cal.]

Guilty

[Niamh.]

Still think he’s innocent

Well you weren't really reading (if you even did read it) with an open mind were you? I don't know why people are so eager for him to be innocent anyway, he's a disgusting man regardless of whether he did this or not (he did)

And yes after watching Series 1 I was convinced he was innocent too

[Marsh.]

Glenn you're being silly. Don't be silly.

[Glenn.]

After watching series 2 I’m even more convinced he’s innocent.

The blood found in her car was literally planted in the car. Blood splatter experts confirmed.

[Niamh.]

After watching series 2 I’m even more convinced he’s innocent.

The blood found in her car was literally planted in the car. Blood splatter experts confirmed.

You realise you can get blood splatter experts to confirm anything you want, don't you? Have you watched The Staircase?

[Marsh.]

Not Niamh dragging Duane Deaver into it. :o

[Niamh.]

Not Niamh dragging Duane Deaver into it. :o

https://i.imgur.com/5cHi32a.jpg?1

[Glenn.]

My mind shan’t be changed on this.

[Niamh.]

My mind shan’t be changed on this.

And neither will a court of laws hopefully

[Denver]

Have you watched The Staircase?

Yes every morning just after I walked down in

[The Slim Reaper]

https://i3.cpcache.com/product/469063069/dexter_quote_blood_never_lies_sticker_rectangle.jp g?side=Front&color=White&height=460&width=460&qv=90

[chuff me dizzy]

Great News :clap1:

Kathleen will DESTROY the attempted prosecution case, the amount of evidence tampering and rules which they broke was insane

What an amazing woman Kathleen is !! Ive never seen such a set up in my life, the rot starts at the top with the Sheriff and judge then trickles through the rest of the police force

[Cal.]

I hope he never gets out just for the sake of the cat he chucked on the fire

[chuff me dizzy]

Why would her brother want to kill her? Makes zero sense and also, I found how netflix tried to point blame at the victims family was disgusting. I think we all forgot who the actual victim was in that story through the documentary and it wasn't the cat torturing, woman assaulter ..........

Did you know that Teresa specifically told her boss that Steve creeped her out and she didn't want to go to do his cars anymore, he gave a fake name that last time, he then phoned her 3 times that day hiding his number and once after she'd disappeared when he didn't hide his number

Did you know Theresa advertised to take porn photos of couples ? and did you once see her Mother shed a tear ? no my money is firmly on Mike and Ryan

[chuff me dizzy]

In S2 they don’t point at the victims family, they point to another member of Stevens, they also imply the boyfriend was aware of the framing as he had her diary which was in her car the day she went missing

And the ex also got into her phone and other online records,. what was he removing ?

[Marsh.]

https://i.imgur.com/5cHi32a.jpg?1

The most baffling and frustrating documentary I've seen.

Do you believe he killed his wife?

I went back and forth. A lot.

[Niamh.]

The most baffling and frustrating documentary I've seen.

Do you believe he killed his wife?

I went back and forth. A lot.

Well, while watching it I was still kind of smarting from feeling duped in the Avery case, so I kind of went in with a bit of a biased view thinking they're going to try to convince me he didn't do it and he probably did, so I decided to watch it, then look up what they left out etc and I really don't think he did do it. There's a bizarre theory involving an owl that weirdly sounds like it could be an answer to what happened

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well I hope this innocent man finally is freed

[Niamh.]

Did you know Theresa advertised to take porn photos of couples ? and did you once see her Mother shed a tear ? no my money is firmly on Mike and Ryan

So what if she did, does that make her less of a murder victim? And her mother didn't cry, so you think she had something to do with it or? I don't get the relevance there at all :conf:

I mean Chuff, they have so much physical evidence against Steve..an actual guy with documented violent tendencies, they have Teresa telling her boss that Steve scared her last time she went there, they have her bodies remains having been burned with Steve's tools and found in a pit outside his trailer so basically, someone either burned them there without Steve or anyone else noticing or burned them off site but would have had to steal Steve's tools first then burn the body and those together, then plant them in front of his trailer. They have DNA on both his gun (which killed Teresa) and on the shell casings so the "real" killer would have had to steal that, shoot her, plant his DNA on them and then return them..............all without Steve noticing.

And to add, if it were her brother and ex (why though?) how would they have gotten the DNA to plant, unless you're honestly suggesting that they conspired with the police to both kill Teresa and then frame Steve? I mean framing someone is one thing but are you saying that they were happy to agree to the actual murdering of an innocent woman just so they could frame Steve Avery? I mean come oooonnnn :laugh:

[Niamh.]

Also Marsh, that was the original kind of crime documentary that Netflix made (The Staircase that is) so the objectives seemed to be different. It was basically a documentary following the justice system and how it works rather than trying to convince you either way of whether he was guilty or innocent

[Glenn.]

The blood the police had on file for Steve had been tampered with

[Niamh.]

The blood the police had on file for Steve had been tampered with

Are you talking about the hole in the top?

[chuff me dizzy]

So what if she did, does that make her less of a murder victim? And her mother didn't cry, so you think she had something to do with it or? I don't get the relevance there at all :conf:

I mean Chuff, they have so much physical evidence against Steve..an actual guy with documented violent tendencies, they have Teresa telling her boss that Steve scared her last time she went there, they have her bodies remains having been burned with Steve's tools and found in a pit outside his trailer so basically, someone either burned them there without Steve or anyone else noticing or burned them off site but would have had to steal Steve's tools first then burn the body and those together, then plant them in front of his trailer. They have DNA on both his gun (which killed Teresa) and on the shell casings so the "real" killer would have had to steal that, shoot her, plant his DNA on them and then return them..............all without Steve noticing.

And to add, if it were her brother and ex (why though?) how would they have gotten the DNA to plant, unless you're honestly suggesting that they conspired with the police to both kill Teresa and then frame Steve? I mean framing someone is one thing but are you saying that they were happy to agree to the actual murdering of an innocent woman just so they could frame Steve Avery? I mean come oooonnnn :laugh:

Wait and see and if Im proved right I will remind you :joker: why did Scott only give Theresa's Aunty a camera ? why did the Aunty go after all the other searchers had gone ? why did Ryan give her the direct line to police ?

[Glenn.]

Are you talking about the hole in the top?

The general packaging also

[Niamh.]

Wait and see and if Im proved right I will remind you :joker: why did Scott only give Theresa's Aunty a camera ? why did the Aunty go after all the other searchers had gone ? why did Ryan give her the direct line to police ?

None of those questions have any physical proof of anything, and there's mountains of physical and circumstantial evidence supporting Steve Avery doing it. You really need to open your mind up more on this one Chuff and look into the possibility that he did actually do it and him having been wrongly jailed (only part of sentence though might I add) before seems to be mudding the waters on this case.....alot.

Chuff I've been following this case for the last few years and read oceans of stuff on it, I was 100% sure that he was innocent after the original documentary until I found out all the sneaky things they did in that to make him sound innocent

[Niamh.]

The general packaging also

The hole on the top (which netflix decided not to tell us) is on all those viles, it's how they put the blood into them. One of the sneaky things they did in the original documentary, drop that bomb but never explain that it meant nothing after all....... I couldn't understand why it never came up in the trial because surely that was damning evidence but of course it didn't come up because there was a proper explanation for it

[Glenn.]

there's no way to know if someone else extracted blood from the tube through the same hole plus the packaging wasn’t sealed as it should have been. Them dirty framing bastards set him up!

[Niamh.]

there's no way to know if someone else extracted blood from the tube through the same hole plus the packaging wasn’t sealed as it should have been. Them dirty framing bastards set him up!

No the documentary set us up more like!

[Glenn.]

OPEN your eyes Nimah!!!!

[Smithy]

I watched the first series then did a load of reading up afterwards and I think he definitely did it. I started watching the second but I found it so biased It annoyed me. Peter Hyatt did a good statement analysis on him. Also, I wouldn't say "poor" him anything he's done some horrible **** besides that (that were very glossed over in the documentary. Brendan dassey also told his mother in a recorded phone conversation that Steve sexually abused him

http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/12/steve-averys-statement-at-sentencing.html

Eh we know he has a below average IQ, how he speaks or what he says isn’t necessarily going to be what he means; or it’s easily taken out of context/deconstructed like this. I don’t think stuff like this is really reliable as apposed to the scientific evidence which has been produced by the defense

[Smithy]

That being said I WILL read the other article you posted niamh!

[Crimson Dynamo]

The TL is convinced this man is innocent

I sent her the link and she said it was Amazing News

[Niamh.]

That being said I WILL read the other article you posted niamh!Do :love:

[Niamh.]

The TL is convinced this man is innocent

I sent her the link and she said it was Amazing NewsAlso send her my link :hee:

[Niamh.]

Eh we know he has a below average IQ, how he speaks or what he says isn’t necessarily going to be what he means; or it’s easily taken out of context/deconstructed like this. I don’t think stuff like this is really reliable as apposed to the scientific evidence which has been produced by the defenseAnd even more so by the prosecution

[chuff me dizzy]

there's no way to know if someone else extracted blood from the tube through the same hole plus the packaging wasn’t sealed as it should have been. Them dirty framing bastards set him up!

:clap1:

[Ramsay]

Thank you Niamh, I was afraid this thread was going to be full of people saying he's innocent. Guilty AF

[Marsh.]

Niamh educated Chuff, Glenn and Smithy. :clap1:

[Marsh.]

Well, while watching it I was still kind of smarting from feeling duped in the Avery case, so I kind of went in with a bit of a biased view thinking they're going to try to convince me he didn't do it and he probably did, so I decided to watch it, then look up what they left out etc and I really don't think he did do it. There's a bizarre theory involving an owl that weirdly sounds like it could be an answer to what happened

Yeah, when watching it I couldn't get my head around that theory.

But it's certainly more plausible than the scenario they kept throwing out, that she fell down the stairs and then kept trying to get up and repeatedly slipped in a pool of her own blood, banging her head against the wall several times. That made him look guilty as sin. But his general demeanour was very cold to me, I definitely don't think his relationship was as open and pleasant as he tried to portray. But obviously, being a prick who shagged around and treated his wife like dirt doesn't mean he killed her. But then there's the whole contrivance/convenience with the poker being found. :shrug: A baffling case.

Though I did find it quite sad when he was finally released, just how frail and beaten he seemed after all those years.

I pitied the kids. (And Margaret was the SPITTING IMAGE of his son!! :eek:).

[user104658]

The true facts:

- Avery probably killed her

- however, the police blatantly DID plant and fabricate evidence in order to "get him", and their version of the specifics of the murder are clearly bull**** and constructed to fit around Brendan Dassey's botched statement.

- Whether Brendan was present at the murder or not (and I don't believe he even was) he has been treated abysmally by the police, and the entire system. Shameful.



Basically I think Avery did it and the police knew it was him, but were struggling for physical evidence so they extensively tampered with the evidence that was available. I think they moved bones, I think it's all but certain that they planted blood, I think they probably moved the car, and I know they forcefully extracted an at least partially false confession out of Brendan because you can watch them doing it.

[Alf]

Unless that Brenda Dassey interview with the police was heavily edited, then I find it hard to find him guilty.

From that interview we saw, he knew nothing and was guessing what the police wanted to hear. But we do know Dassey was with Avery on the night in question. having a bonfire.

Either it didn't happen as they say it did or Dassey is a genius.

[user104658]

Unless that Brenda Dassey interview with the police was heavily edited, then I find it hard to find him guilty.

From that interview we saw, he knew nothing and was guessing what the police wanted to hear. But we do know Dassey was with Avery on the night in question. having a bonfire.

Either it didn't happen as they say it did or Dassey is a genius.My take on it is that Brendan is innocent and that the police timeline of events isn't accurate, so it is possible for Brendan to be innocent and Avery to be guilty.

[Glenn.]

Niamh educated Chuff, Glenn and Smithy. :clap1:

No she didn’t? I think she’s a fool to think he’s guilty :idc:

[Niamh.]

No she didn’t? I think she’s a fool to think he’s guilty :idc:That's not very nice

[Niamh.]

My take on it is that Brendan is innocent and that the police timeline of events isn't accurate, so it is possible for Brendan to be innocent and Avery to be guilty.I haven't read the full transcripts of the interview but apparently he did give some accurate details without prompting. I do think he was treated very badly though and probably a victim of steve aswell which he admitted to his mother on a recorded phone call from prison

[Alf]

My take on it is that Brendan is innocent and that the police timeline of events isn't accurate, so it is possible for Brendan to be innocent and Avery to be guilty.I'm not gonna argue too much with Niamh on this, she's obviously done her research on this and I've only seen the documentaries. But from the documenteries, it's fair to say it's a very fishy case, and the law enforcement don't look good and could have done with some better cross examining of them. The officer I think called Link or lenk or something like that and the patrol officer with the glasses (I forget his name) were both very dodgy and didn't seem honest to me.

[Niamh.]

Also something thats not mentioned much but Steve actually initially lied to the police and said Teresa never showed up

[user104658]

I haven't read the full transcripts of the interview but apparently he did give some accurate details without prompting. I do think he was treated very badly though and probably a victim of steve aswell which he admitted to his mother on a recorded phone call from prisonHe gave so many details that some were bound to be right just by probability.

"What happened to her?"

"She was stabbed or shot or strangled or someone hit her on the head or maybe drowned her"

"AHA so you knew she was shot."


That said, even if the interview had been conducted ethically (which it straight up was not), the worst that can be said for a clearly non-neurotypical 16 year old is that he was a victim. Even if Steven never directly laid a hand on him, even if the police narrative is 100% accurate, Brendan to me should clearly be classed as a victim of Avery who was confused, easily manipulated, and felt he had to do as he was told.

[Glenn.]

That's not very nice

Neither is being wrongfully imprisoned

[Niamh.]

Neither is being wrongfully imprisonedLucky he isn't then

[Niamh.]

He gave so many details that some were bound to be right just by probability.

"What happened to her?"

"She was stabbed or shot or strangled or someone hit her on the head or maybe drowned her"

"AHA so you knew she was shot."


That said, even if the interview had been conducted ethically (which it straight up was not), the worst that can be said for a clearly non-neurotypical 16 year old is that he was a victim. Even if Steven never directly laid a hand on him, even if the police narrative is 100% accurate, Brendan to me should clearly be classed as a victim of Avery who was confused, easily manipulated, and felt he had to do as he was told.Yeah even if he was involved I still feel sorry for him because I have no doubt he was coerced and probably terrified of Steve

[Niamh.]

Yeah, when watching it I couldn't get my head around that theory.



But it's certainly more plausible than the scenario they kept throwing out, that she fell down the stairs and then kept trying to get up and repeatedly slipped in a pool of her own blood, banging her head against the wall several times. That made him look guilty as sin. But his general demeanour was very cold to me, I definitely don't think his relationship was as open and pleasant as he tried to portray. But obviously, being a prick who shagged around and treated his wife like dirt doesn't mean he killed her. But then there's the whole contrivance/convenience with the poker being found. :shrug: A baffling case.



Though I did find it quite sad when he was finally released, just how frail and beaten he seemed after all those years.



I pitied the kids. (And Margaret was the SPITTING IMAGE of his son!! :eek:).I read afterwards that they found her own hair in her hands and feathers, it would make sense that she would fall all awkwardly and be pulling at her hair if an owl attacked her and got tangled up in her hair, it would also explain the wounds on her scalp. There was a particular type of owl native to where they lived that get very aggressive during mating season, which it was at the time. . . Odd as that explanation sounds it fits so much better with her injuries and weird falling around

[DouglasS]

I haven't watched the netflix show but I read he doused a cat in gasoline, tortured it and burned it alive. Thats usually how many killers/physcos start, and so for that reason I think hes guilty. Someone capable of doing that is easily capable of murder.

[Amy Jade]

Happy with him being hung or caged for life for harming innocent animals anyway

[Glenn.]

Cats are grotesque anyway

[Niamh.]

I haven't watched the netflix show but I read he doused a cat in gasoline, tortured it and burned it alive. Thats usually how many killers/physcos start, and so for that reason I think hes guilty. Someone capable of doing that is easily capable of murder.Absolutely

[Marsh.]

Cats are grotesque anyway

https://i.imgur.com/r46CBgob.png

[Amy Jade]

Even if you dislike cats he doused one in gas, tortured it (iirc declawed it and ripped its teeth out aswell as swinging it around by its tail) before setting it alite.

Anyone who can do that to an innocent, trusting animal is a scumbag.

[Smithy]

Here's a good article for balance :hee:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/12/11/making-a-murderers-steven-avery-is-still-guilty-as-hell/

Nah this is a really poor article, all he does is gloss over the evidence provided by Kathleen and giving generalization and tries to make it sound implausible.

First off, viewers still have to accept that Halbach’s body was moved onto Avery’s property by members of the Manitowoc, Wisconsin police department, or someone else hoping to frame him, then burned in a firepit in front of his home—with other murder tools belonging to Avery—without anyone on the busy property noticing.

Kathleen said bone fragments were found in a third place - the Manitowoc gravel pit, the bones (or what was remaining) was then dumped on Avery’s property, a body wasn’t moved, just the remnants

But the viewer is also asked to believe that police (or some steely nerved mastermind killer who, as far as we know, has never struck before or after) snuck into the Avery home, and not only planted the keys to Halbach’s car in his trailer but also planted Avery’s non-blood DNA onto those keys (as Zellner claims).

The police didn’t need to “sneak in” the key was found on the 3rd or 4th (can’t remember entirely) search of the property, and the original police officers who searched the property said the key was NOT there in the first place, there was also no other DNA on the key apart from Stevens, why wouldn’t there be a trace of Therese’s DNA on the key? Unless it had been scrubbed and the dna planted, DNA found on her car key included too many cells to be transferred by simply holding the key too

She says someone also planted Avery’s non-blood DNA evidence on the inside latch of the trunk of Halbach’s car (and blood in half a dozen places elsewhere in the car) after dumping the car on the property without anyone noticing. All of it before the police showed up.

This one is actually quite funny, because when you watch the show they do an experiment to measure the amount of DNA on the hood latch by recreating someone touching a latch in similar fashion. So basically they do the experiment three times and measure the amount of DNA on the latch each time. In the lab the results showed that in order for the amount of DNA to have been transferred onto the hood latch Steven would have had touch it *90* times. Why/how would that be possible?

This means that that cops, or another murderer, got their hands on a rifle that hung over Avery’s bed, fired it without any of the family’s knowledge, shot a woman in the garage without anyone’s knowledge (or maybe they transported Avery’s gun somewhere else and shot her), then also planted the forensic evidence without anyone’s knowledge. All before the police showed up.

This just doesn’t make sense in terms of his argument, he’s saying it’s ridiculous that the body was moved, but if she was shot/killed in his garage why is there no blood splatter or DNA in the garage to back it up?


BASICALLY niamh, everything in that article is a load of ****e :hee:

[Niamh.]

Even if you dislike cats he doused one in gas, tortured it (iirc declawed it and ripped its teeth out aswell as swinging it around by its tail) before setting it alite.

Anyone who can do that to an innocent, trusting animal is a scumbag.Not to mention when he was jailed for that rape part of his sentence was also for running a woman off the road in his car and pulling a gun on her with her child in the back seat

[Niamh.]

Nah this is a really poor article, all he does is gloss over the evidence provided by Kathleen and giving generalization and tries to make it sound implausible.







Kathleen said bone fragments were found in a third place - the Manitowoc gravel pit, the bones (or what was remaining) was then dumped on Avery’s property, a body wasn’t moved, just the remnants







The police didn’t need to “sneak in” the key was found on the 3rd or 4th (can’t remember entirely) search of the property, and the original police officers who searched the property said the key was NOT there in the first place, there was also no other DNA on the key apart from Stevens, why wouldn’t there be a trace of Therese’s DNA on the key? Unless it had been scrubbed and the dna planted, DNA found on her car key included too many cells to be transferred by simply holding the key too







This one is actually quite funny, because when you watch the show they do an experiment to measure the amount of DNA on the hood latch by recreating someone touching a latch in similar fashion. So basically they do the experiment three times and measure the amount of DNA on the latch each time. In the lab the results showed that in order for the amount of DNA to have been transferred onto the hood latch Steven would have had touch it *90* times. Why/how would that be possible?







This just doesn’t make sense in terms of his argument, he’s saying it’s ridiculous that the body was moved, but if she was shot/killed in his garage why is there no blood splatter or DNA in the garage to back it up?





BASICALLY niamh, everything in that article is a load of ****e :hee:He also cleaned his really messy **** heap of a garage with bleach just recently

[MTVN]

Just cos someone is a bad person and did lots of bad things doesn't mean they can't be innocent of this one particular bad thing, it's a big part of the huge flaw in the way that this was investigated that assumptions were made based on Averys character and conclusions were pre-empted..

[Smithy]

He also cleaned his really messy **** heap of a garage with bleach just recently

Can’t have done it that well if he didn’t get rid of the bullets :idc:

Either way, there would have still been blood on the walls/ceiling if she was shot in there, he wouldn’t have been able to remove all traces

[Smithy]

Just cos someone is a bad person and did lots of bad things doesn't mean they can't be innocent of this one particular bad thing, it's a big part of the huge flaw in the way that this was investigated that assumptions were made based on Averys character and conclusions were pre-empted..

MTE, he clearly is quite messed up, especially with the cat thing, but I don’t believe he killed Theresa

[Niamh.]

And let's be honest Smithy you were always going to say it was a **** article, your mind is closed on this one

[Marsh.]

He also cleaned his really messy **** heap of a garage with bleach just recently

:eek: Omg, he's on day release?

[Niamh.]

Just cos someone is a bad person and did lots of bad things doesn't mean they can't be innocent of this one particular bad thing, it's a big part of the huge flaw in the way that this was investigated that assumptions were made based on Averys character and conclusions were pre-empted..There's so much evidence though, both physical and circumstantial

[Niamh.]

:eek: Omg, he's on day release?[emoji1787] recently in relation to the murder

[Smithy]

And let's be honest Smithy you were always going to say it was a **** article, your mind is closed on this one

But reading the article the writer is already bias by implying that the evidence given is nonsensical, he over exaggerates everything as if it’s impossible, whereas when you see the evidence in front of you, it’s clearly not.

And you may say that the show is bias, but the officers involved didn’t want to comment on the case and Kathleen deconstructs their case in an efficient manner.

I read it with an open mind but everything he said has already been proved or validated with scientific testing, that’s not being closed minded

[Glenn.]

The experiments they did in Series 2 pretty much confirmed that the prosecutions side of events didn’t actually happen. It can’t have. The hood latch, the blood in her car and I can’t remember what but there was something with the bullet found in the garage. There was like a million bullet holes in the wood or something.

[Marsh.]

The blood spatter experiments were a howl. :joker:

[Niamh.]

But reading the article the writer is already bias by implying that the evidence given is nonsensical, he over exaggerates everything as if it’s impossible, whereas when you see the evidence in front of you, it’s clearly not.



And you may say that the show is bias, but the officers involved didn’t want to comment on the case and Kathleen deconstructs their case in an efficient manner.



I read it with an open mind but everything he said has already been proved or validated with scientific testing, that’s not being closed mindedI wouldn't have wanted to go on that show either if I wasn't saying Steve was innocent, they're only interested in one side

[Niamh.]

The experiments they did in Series 2 pretty much confirmed that the prosecutions side of events didn’t actually happen. It can’t have. The hood latch, the blood in her car and I can’t remember what but there was something with the bullet found in the garage. There was like a million bullet holes in the wood or something.All one sided and theories. Blood splatter tests can be made to look however you want them to. .

[Alf]

Niamh, do you not think it's possible that it was Brendan's step-father and brother that did it? and that the police planted it on Avery because not only had he embarrassed them, but he was due to profit big time off them?


I can't understand how someone who was going to receive the financial gain he was, doing something like this.

[Smithy]

Niamh I’m not sure how you can say people are closed minded when there is scientific evidence to back up the defense but I haven’t really seen anything credible that hasn’t already been explained through various testing

[Josy]

Just cos someone is a bad person and did lots of bad things doesn't mean they can't be innocent of this one particular bad thing, it's a big part of the huge flaw in the way that this was investigated that assumptions were made based on Averys character and conclusions were pre-empted..

Exactly this.

Regardless of opinions towards Steven Avery, the whole thing stinks of complete corruption from start to finish and there was no way that the jury would have truly have found him guilty beyond reasonable doubt if evidence hadn't been tampered with and so on, at the very least he is entitled to a new trial.

[Josy]

I watched the first series then did a load of reading up afterwards and I think he definitely did it. I started watching the second but I found it so biased It annoyed me. Peter Hyatt did a good statement analysis on him. Also, I wouldn't say "poor" him anything he's done some horrible **** besides that (that were very glossed over in the documentary. Brendan dassey also told his mother in a recorded phone conversation that Steve sexually abused him

http://statement-analysis.blogspot.com/2015/12/steve-averys-statement-at-sentencing.html

You really missed a lot not watching the second season, some of the criminal testing Kathleen carried out was truly eye opening and then the stuff that came out about Bobby was actually sickening :eek:

[Niamh.]

Niamh, do you not think it's possible that it was Brendan's step-father and brother that did it? and that the police planted it on Avery because not only had he embarrassed them, but he was due to profit big time off them?


I can't understand how someone who was going to receive the financial gain he was, doing something like this.I don't think a violent murderer would not be a violent murder just because he was going to get money

[Niamh.]

You really missed a lot not watching the second season, some of the criminal testing Kathleen carried out was truly eye opening and then the stuff that came out about Bobby was actually sickening :eek:The whole family seem.like weirdos tbf

[Niamh.]

Niamh I’m not sure how you can say people are closed minded when there is scientific evidence to back up the defense but I haven’t really seen anything credible that hasn’t already been explained through various testingThere's scientific evidence to back up the prosecution though, it's why he's in jail now. That it was planted is a theory, a defence

[Josy]

The whole family seem.like weirdos tbf

The proof of what was recovered from bobby's computer makes him a lot worse than a weirdo.

I still genuinely don't get how the prosecution can describe exactly how she was murdered when they never even had a body or any remains worth examining :think:

[Niamh.]

Niamh, do you not think it's possible that it was Brendan's step-father and brother that did it? and that the police planted it on Avery because not only had he embarrassed them, but he was due to profit big time off them?


I can't understand how someone who was going to receive the financial gain he was, doing something like this.Regarding the step dad and brother, they definitely seem shady but so does Steve and he was the one who specifically requested Teresa come that day and who Teresa had said scared her

[Josy]

On a side note, watching Kathleen and her teams testing etc on this case peaked my interest so I read up and watched other cases she had worked on, she is really amazing at what she does

[Niamh.]

The proof of what was recovered from bobby's computer makes him a lot worse than a weirdo.



I still genuinely don't get how the prosecution can describe exactly how she was murdered when they never even had a body or any remains worth examining :think:They had shells from Steve's gun with her DNA on it

[Niamh.]

On a side note, watching Kathleen and her teams testing etc on this case peaked my interest so I read up and watched other cases she had worked on, she is really amazing at what she doesHave you watched the Staircase Josy? That's an interesting one

[Josy]

They had shells from Steve's gun with her DNA on it

Tests in the second season refuted that iirc

[Smithy]

They had shells from Steve's gun with her DNA on it

No they didn’t

[Josy]

Have you watched the Staircase Josy? That's an interesting one

Yeah I did, I changed my mind about what happened so many times watching that :laugh:

[Alf]

I don't think a violent murderer would not be a violent murder just because he was going to get moneyTaking away the cat story, he hadn't been a violent murderer of humans before this. He'd just got his freedom having been locked up for 15 years for something he didn't do, and he was going to gain financially in a big way.

I'm not saying it's not possible that he did it despite that, just that it doesn't seem logical, from a normal point of view.

[Niamh.]

Tests in the second season refuted that iircHhhmm so the defence say

[Niamh.]

Taking away the cat story, he hadn't been a violent murderer of humans before this. He'd just got his freedom having been locked up for something he didn't do, and he was going to gain financially in a big way.



I'm not saying it's not possible that he did it despite that, just that it doesn't seem logical, from a normal point of view.You aren't exactly dealing with normal people though

[Niamh.]

Yeah I did, I changed my mind about what happened so many times watching that [emoji23]Same, it was a very unbiased documentary though that one.

[Niamh.]

No they didn’tThey did

[Smithy]

I think you should watch S2 of MaM niamh just to see the scientific evidence which Kathleen pus forward

[Niamh.]

I think you should watch S2 of MaM niamh just to see the scientific evidence which Kathleen pus forwardI don't trust the documentarys

[Josy]

I don't trust the documentarys

Its mostly Kathleen and her team of experts

[Smithy]

I don't trust the documentarys

Ok but what about the experiments they do that disproves the states theory? How can you distrust scientific proof

[Alf]

If God see's all and there is a Heaven and Hell, then justice will be served in the after life.

But in this life we have to rely on people and whether you trust people or not.

[Niamh.]

Ok but what about the experiments they do that disproves the states theory? How can you distrust scientific proofOne scientific experiment saying another is disproved by the defence? Not exactly rock solid in my view. Let's see how the prosecution deal with it with their own experts

[Smithy]

One scientific experiment saying another is disproved by the defence? Not exactly rock solid in my view. Let's see how the prosecution deal with it with their own experts

But the prosecution didn’t do experiments? They just claimed the DNA was here, there and everywhere, the experiments done show that what they claimed isn’t possible without tampering

[Alf]

I think you should watch part 2 Niamh, and then come back and let us know what you think.

Watch it with an open, but also critical mind.

[Niamh.]

But the prosecution didn’t do experiments? They just claimed the DNA was here, there and everywhere, the experiments done show that what they claimed isn’t possible without tamperingThey cant claim theres DNA without a scientist testing it, are you saying the lawyers just said there was DNA with no tests? I don't think so [emoji1787]

[Niamh.]

I think you should watch part 2 Niamh, and then come back and let us know what you think.

Watch it with an open, but also critical mind.I will do Alf. I watched 2 episodes but tbh it was a bit boring

[Smithy]

They cant claim theres DNA without a scientist testing it, are you saying the lawyers just said there was DNA with no tests? I don't think so [emoji1787]

No my point is that although they’ve tested for DNA and the DNA is obviously present the tests which have been done show that the levels of DNA present are what should be expected and are so far off the charts that it’s obviously planted

[Niamh.]

No my point is that although they’ve tested for DNA and the DNA is obviously present the tests which have been done show that the levels of DNA present are what should be expected and are so far off the charts that it’s obviously plantedAccording to the defences experts

[Smithy]

According to the defences experts

No, according to independent individuals who conducted the experiments

[Josy]

They cant claim theres DNA without a scientist testing it, are you saying the lawyers just said there was DNA with no tests? I don't think so [emoji1787]They claimed there was human bones and it turned out to be a guess

[Niamh.]

No, according to independent individuals who conducted the experimentsIndependent indeed

[Niamh.]

They claimed there was human bones and it turned out to be a guessWho says though?

[Smithy]

They claimed there was human bones and it turned out to be a guess

http://oi65.tinypic.com/155qhzt.jpg

[Josy]

Who says though?The phone recording that was left on zellners answer machine by accident from Mark Williams.

They claimed for years they were in possession of a pelvic bone and the recording has him saying not to reply to zellner until they have a look to see if the bone is actually there.

[Josy]

The message was supposed to go to fallon but they called zellner by mistake

Hi, Tom. This is Mark Williams. Um, I’ll send you an email later today, but I don’t think we should do anything or respond to her [Zellner] at all until tomorrow, uh, when we look into the bag and–and see exactly the pelvic bones are in there or not. Um, so I–I would not respond, uh, until we look into the bag, uh tomorrow morning and then we can talk about it, uh, before we send a response. Thanks a lot. Bye.”

[Niamh.]

Guilty

[Alf]

The message was supposed to go to fallon but they called zellner by mistakeOr was it by mistake? Maybe it was deliberate?

[Josy]

Or was it by mistake? Maybe it was deliberate?Why would they deliberately reveal themselves to be liars?

[Alf]

Why would they deliberately reveal themselves to be liars?I don't know, but why would they make that type of mistake?

[Josy]

I don't know, but why would they make that type of mistake?Panic? Due to being asked to hand over the bone and them not actually having it? :shrug: who knows lol

[Beso]

I need to re watch this documentary cause I had them all down as guilty but I don't think I've ever seen the whole video. .it's one if those where you have seen it a few times but only bits n bobs of it..

[chuff me dizzy]

Niamh educated Chuff, Glenn and Smithy. :clap1:

No one educated me, I have my own mind

[chuff me dizzy]

I'm not gonna argue too much with Niamh on this, she's obviously done her research on this and I've only seen the documentaries. But from the documenteries, it's fair to say it's a very fishy case, and the law enforcement don't look good and could have done with some better cross examining of them. The officer I think called Link or lenk or something like that and the patrol officer with the glasses (I forget his name) were both very dodgy and didn't seem honest to me.

Yes they were bent for sure .. Im still waiting to see the blood on the bedding and mattress ,but it was never even mentioned and poor Brendan in prison because of Fassbender getting him to say they slit her throat and stabbed her

[user104658]

Yes they were bent for sure .. Im still waiting to see the blood on the bedding and mattress ,but it was never even mentioned and poor Brendan in prison because of Fassbender getting him to say they slit her throat and stabbed her

This is one that gets me. Other than the "confession" there is absolutely no evidence that her throat was cut or that she was stabbed, all of the evidence shows that she was shot, so to account for him "confessing" to the knife attacks in the bedroom the investigators had to claim that they stabbed her and cut her throat but she was still alive, so they then dragged her outside - with her throat cut - and shot her... leaving no blood trail. It doesn't make sense AT ALL... it's quite clear that the knife attack never happened, which makes it pretty clear that the rest of Brendan's statement is nonsense too. It should have been completely disregarded in the first place.

[chuff me dizzy]

This is one that gets me. Other than the "confession" there is absolutely no evidence that her throat was cut or that she was stabbed, all of the evidence shows that she was shot, so to account for him "confessing" to the knife attacks in the bedroom the investigators had to claim that they stabbed her and cut her throat but she was still alive, so they then dragged her outside - with her throat cut - and shot her... leaving no blood trail. It doesn't make sense AT ALL... it's quite clear that the knife attack never happened, which makes it pretty clear that the rest of Brendan's statement is nonsense too. It should have been completely disregarded in the first place.

EXACTLY TS !! not a spot of blood anywhere

[chuff me dizzy]

Niamh you really must watch series 2 ,you are not seeing the "evidence" on which Avery was charged and found guilty on being ripped to shreds

[Vicky.]

I really really must watch this. Its something I have been meaning to do for a long time tbh...

[Vicky.]

This is one that gets me. Other than the "confession" there is absolutely no evidence that her throat was cut or that she was stabbed, all of the evidence shows that she was shot, so to account for him "confessing" to the knife attacks in the bedroom the investigators had to claim that they stabbed her and cut her throat but she was still alive, so they then dragged her outside - with her throat cut - and shot her... leaving no blood trail. It doesn't make sense AT ALL... it's quite clear that the knife attack never happened, which makes it pretty clear that the rest of Brendan's statement is nonsense too. It should have been completely disregarded in the first place.
This sounds so bizarre.

[user104658]

Niamh you really must watch series 2 ,you are not seeing the "evidence" on which Avery was charged and found guilty on being ripped to shreds

It's certainly worth watching the episode that focusses on the Manitowoc coroner and the interview with her, there can be no real doubt that something dodgy has gone on after seeing that. The basics are; she was shut out of the case from the start and wasn't allowed to do her job, she was blocked from doing things by people who are actually below her in the pecking order - they wouldn't comply with her requests completely ignoring due process (it is the coroner and ONLY the coroner who is supposed to establish cause of death. They didn't let her do it.)

When she tried to push the issue she was bullied, had her livelihood threatened, and was eventually deliberately intimidated and then when she said all of this in the initial trial she was ignored, and she ended up essentially being bullied out of her job and took early retirement. A total mess.


Like I said above, I don't know if Steven Avery killed Theresa or not - he may well be the one who did it - but the official version of events / timeline that the police put forward plus Brendan's statement are total BS (thus, the majority of circumstantial evidence is unclear) AND a huge chunk of the physical evidence is suspect too, due to at best incompetence and mishandling by the investigators, and at worst some deliberate evidence tampering.


So my personal thoughts are I'm not confident in saying that Avery definitely didn't kill her, it's quite possible that he did, and either way I don't believe the police dept. think they're framing an innocent man - THEY believe he did it - but they were lacking evidence and frustrated that he seemingly "keeps getting away with things" in their eyes so they altered evidence and pressured the Dassey confession because they wanted to be sure Avery would go down for something they were "pretty damn sure" he did.


Basically for me the interest in the story isn't really what happens to Avery - I think it would be a push to describe him as a sympathetic character. And Brendan Dassey again the actual sequence of events aren't all that relevant to me when it comes to him, his case has been horrendously mishandled no matter what the truth of the matter is, he should never have been put on trial as an adult with full capacity because he clearly isn't even now, let alone as a teenager.

But where the interest is... is that I do think that there is SUBSTANTIAL evidence of corruption and other extremely dodgy practices in the investigation that I would love to see explored and exposed.

[user104658]

This sounds so bizarre.

It's so haphazardly put together. You can even hear their frustration in the interview when they're saying "What about the head, something with the head" and he says "...umm we cut her throat?" and they ask where and he says it was when she was tied up on the bed. There's an obvious pause because they're like "**** that clearly didn't happen, how are we going to explain him saying that?" and then the next we hear of it is Ken Kratz holding the press conference and relaying this horrific - but barely even plausible - story about how they did that "but she still didn't die" so they had to shoot her as well. Hell, Kratz doesn't even do a very good job of making it sound convincing, he SOUNDS like he knows he's making it up.

It's really awful because - while I'm sure the real timeline of her death was horrific in reality - it seems that they've managed to paint an even WORSE picture of how it happened, which surely only causes more anguish for friends and family. While we don't know what happened to her before she was killed, ALL of the physical evidence is that her actual death was simple and quick. She was shot in the head and died instantly.

[chuff me dizzy]

It's so haphazardly put together. You can even hear their frustration in the interview when they're saying "What about the head, something with the head" and he says "...umm we cut her throat?" and they ask where and he says it was when she was tied up on the bed. There's an obvious pause because they're like "**** that clearly didn't happen, how are we going to explain him saying that?" and then the next we hear of it is Ken Kratz holding the press conference and relaying this horrific - but barely even plausible - story about how they did that "but she still didn't die" so they had to shoot her as well. Hell, Kratz doesn't even do a very good job of making it sound convincing, he SOUNDS like he knows he's making it up.

It's really awful because - while I'm sure the real timeline of her death was horrific in reality - it seems that they've managed to paint an even WORSE picture of how it happened, which surely only causes more anguish for friends and family. While we don't know what happened to her before she was killed, ALL of the physical evidence is that her actual death was simple and quick. She was shot in the head and died instantly.

Don't start me on Kratz :rant: My finger is still firmly planted at Mike Halbach and Theresas ex Ryan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tq0peK0MtY

[user104658]

Don't start me on Kratz :rant: My finger is still firmly planted at Mike Halbach and Theresas ex Ryan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tq0peK0MtY

The only thing I've ever found odd about the family is that they are SO adamant that the right people are locked up and won't hear of it being questioned. When I would have thought that, if there was a question that your family member's killer might actually still be out there, you would at least be keen to have that investigated as well.

But then, Meredith Kercher's family are the same when it comes to that case, and it only takes a brief look at the evidence in that case to know that Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had absolutely nowt to do with Meredith's murder and the right person *is* locked up for it. The evidence in that case was absolutely ludicrous too, but thankfully the Italian supreme courts got it spot on in the end in my opinion: The small local police force came under the international gaze because of the murder and felt pressured to secure a quick result, pinned it on Knox and Sollecito. It's actually a prime example of the fact that it IS totally feasible that small departments like the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept. don't always do things by the book. As soon as real forensic and DNA experts got involved it was clear that they didn't do it and weren't even there. But Meredith Kercher's family are still pretty upset about their acquittal so maybe it's understandably common for families of victims to not be able to be rational and objective.

[Vicky.]

Ugh watching this now, he set the family cat on fire for a laugh?! What the actual ****. And people excusing it as 'stupid things he did but owned up to'? I cannot see me rooting for this guy mind :umm2:

[chuff me dizzy]

The only thing I've ever found odd about the family is that they are SO adamant that the right people are locked up and won't hear of it being questioned. When I would have thought that, if there was a question that your family member's killer might actually still be out there, you would at least be keen to have that investigated as well.

But then, Meredith Kercher's family are the same when it comes to that case, and it only takes a brief look at the evidence in that case to know that Knox and Raffaele Sollecito had absolutely nowt to do with Meredith's murder and the right person *is* locked up for it. The evidence in that case was absolutely ludicrous too, but thankfully the Italian supreme courts got it spot on in the end in my opinion: The small local police force came under the international gaze because of the murder and felt pressured to secure a quick result, pinned it on Knox and Sollecito. It's actually a prime example of the fact that it IS totally feasible that small departments like the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept. don't always do things by the book. As soon as real forensic and DNA experts got involved it was clear that they didn't do it and weren't even there. But Meredith Kercher's family are still pretty upset about their acquittal so maybe it's understandably common for families of victims to not be able to be rational and objective.

We said the same thing, i wouldnt want the wrong person locked up for life just to have SOMEONE locked up, but they seem fine with it, not a single tear from the Mother, as a Mother myself I cannot even think of sitting looking at my childs bones on a tv screen, but she seemed un-phased by it in court ,this is another reason why I think the brother and ex did it

[daniel-lewis-1985]

I'm baffled how they have such intricate "factual" details on how Theresa died when all they found were fragments of bone.

How could they tell she was sexually assaulted (barr that ridiculous confession), strangled, had her throat slit and was then shot?

There seems to be so much more evidence pointing towards him not committing the murder that i cannot see how so many obvious suspects are just out there living their lives without any form of questioning from the police.

[user104658]

How could they tell she was sexually assaulted (barr that ridiculous confession), strangled, had her throat slit and was then shot?


They can't; there is physical evidence from the skull fragments that she was shot in the head. The rest is based ENTIRELY on Brendan Dassey's coerced statement where he said all sorts of things... a lot of which contradicts the physical evidence that exists... and even contradicts other things he said himself. They just cherry-picked the part of the statement that they want to be true.

Again... I honestly don't know if Steven Avery shot her. He may well have done; he HAS done some other horrendous things in his youth and circumstantially, he certainly had opportunity. I do know that it didn't go down the way that they're saying it did though because it simply doesn't make any sense. And some of the physical evidence doesn't make sense either.

Really the simplest explanation for it all is that Avery did indeed kill her, but he did a good job of covering his tracks and so the police decided to plant evidence and coerce Dassey into making a statement so that they could arrest & convict. Which obviously is a huge problem and needs to be uncovered. The ends don't justify the means when it comes to things like this.

[Smithy]

Bumping bc I want to know if Niamh/Vicky have watched anymore :eyes:

[Vicky.]

I managed 2 episodes and cannot get into it at all D:

[Smithy]

I managed 2 episodes and cannot get into it at all D:

D:

Tbf it ep3/the end of ep 4 (iirc) that grabs you, I’d say keep trying!

[Glenn.]

When you do we can go to the ‘Free Brendan and Steve’ rallies and show our support