BBC bans Michael Jackson music amidst child abuse claims

[user104658]

One was 20,so I presume the other one was close

kids? they were grown men

For having such strong opinions you have a lot of the facts wrong on this, Kazanne.

Wade Robson testified when he was 11, in 1993, and when he was 23, in 2005. James Safechuck ONLY testified in 1993, when he was around 14. He was asked to defend Jackson again in 2005 and refused to do so. This was LONG before he started any legal proceedings, also, so can't be waved away as "greed".

[Kazanne]

Did you watch Tuesday nights documentary ? IMO it was far more damning than last nights ... In Bashirs film Jackson showed himself to be a liar ,he openly denied having facial surgery apart from having his nose done " to breath easier :joker: " then back tracked and said he had maybe had 2 surgeries then it went to 3 !!

Seen that documentary ages ago, Bashir got some bad feedback from that,He did deny having facial surgery but he was clearly embarrassed by it as he tried to hide his face, as was said in the documentary,Bashir kept pushing the plastic surgery questions and even the doctor said, most doctors would have refused to do it, and if anyone cares to read it MJ trusted Bashir,this is why he got the backlash.Bashir Interviewed MJ from 2002 to 2003 at Jackson's home for a documentary called "Living with Michael Jackson". MJ opened his home to Bashir as he had never done to anyone else, thinking this was an opportunity to show his life to the world and be candid about his troubles. Bashir later admitted that the documentary portrayed MJ in a skewed light, and gave the impression that MJ was a child molester. Bashir later said:

"Certainly when I made the documentary, there was a small part of that which contained a controversy concerning his relationship with other young people. The truth is that he was never convicted of any crime. I never saw any wrongdoing myself and whilst his lifestyle may have been a bit unorthodox, I don’t believe it was criminal and I think the world has now lost the greatest entertainer probably ever known.“

During Bashir's interview, MJ made references to sleeping in with kids in his bed:


"Why can't you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone."

After the Bashir "documentary" appeared in early 2003, Santa Barbara County DA Tom Sneddon- who 10 years prior had failed to successfully prosecute charges against MJ- used this evidence and proposed testimony by one of the children who apparently slept in MJ's bed to press charges of child molestation (Even though the mere fact of having a child sleep in your bed is not a crime without evidence of more).

Although MJ was acquitted on all charges, it would be hard to deny or doubt that the public embarassment and complete betrayal by Bashir led MJ to lead an even more withdrawn life.

Today, Bashir is a reporter on ABC's "Nightline". He essentially propelled his career off the back of Michael Jackson's own tragedy, a tragedy that was fueled largely by his documentary. At no point did Bashir comment that he did not feel MJ was a child molester, even though, as the above quote shows, Bashir himself never believed MJ was a molester. (But this begs the question concerning Bashir: if his first-hand experience indicated to Bashir that MJ was not a criminal, why did Bashir not emphasize this during the documentary, at least as a footnote? Why did Bashir edit out the parts of his documentary that showed MJ was not a criminal? Wasn't this intentional omission biased and unprofessional, to say the very least?).

Bashir essentially is a peddler of sleaze, a latter day Connie Chung (if you recall, Chung had asked Newt Gingrich's mom to "confide" in her- on camera- about her negative feelings for Hillary Clinton, promising her that it was "just between you and me"). While on tape, Newt's mom commented that Hillary was a "b*tch". Chung, of course, had the tape rolling, and showed the tape on CBS Evening News (this led to CBS justifiably firing her).

Bashir, on the other hand, used his deceitful and unprofessional presentation to launch his own career. If anything, it launched him into the stratosphere of media celebritydom.

I am not saying Bashir "killed" MJ. But consider this: MJ was already in a fragile emotional state. Yes, a lot of this was due to a troubled childhood- which MJ was very candid about on Bashir's presentation. Yes a lot of this was from drugs, and yes the proximate cause of MJ's death was drug use. But the Bashir documentary was what directly led to the 2004-05 trial of molestation, and the immense riducle of Jackson in the public eye. It would be hard to believe that this ridicule and embarassment, in turn, dd not lead Jackson to lead a more reclusive and troubled existence, one plagued by increasing drug use.

I am not asking you to believe this, but rather, consider it thoughtfully. Why has Bashir himself not been placed under the spotlight? Ironically, and obviously self servingly, Bashir now says he never believed MJ was guilty, calling him "the greatest entertainer the world has ever known".

How disgusting.

[Kazanne]

For having such strong opinions you have a lot of the facts wrong on this, Kazanne.

Wade Robson testified when he was 11, in 1993, and when he was 23, in 2005. James Safechuck ONLY testified in 1993, when he was around 14. He was asked to defend Jackson again in 2005 and refused to do so. This was LONG before he started any legal proceedings, also, so can't be waved away as "greed".


Yes you're right I was going on when they decided to tell 10 years after he died,got them mixed up,My bad

[Crimson Dynamo]

Did you watch Tuesday nights documentary ? IMO it was far more damning than last nights ... In Bashirs film Jackson showed himself to be a liar ,he openly denied having facial surgery apart from having his nose done " to breath easier :joker: " then back tracked and said he had maybe had 2 surgeries then it went to 3 !!

so a proven liar then?

[Kazanne]

so a proven liar then?

He always said he had ,had a few surgeries on his nose, imo he had more but he never admitted to it maybe for fear of the tabloids again who knows but he clearly believed his nose surgeries had altered his face

[joeysteele]

In legal terms, I agree with you but I don't think legal proceedings and personal opinion are ultimately, or necessarily, interchangeable and I think it's a mistake to view the world in those terms. Doing so requires believing in an infallible legal system and unfortunately, such a thing simply does not exist. Each to their own on that though, I suppose.

Taking the legal judgement out of it; you're not even doing what you suggest you support? You say that everyone should be viewed as possibly innocent until proven guilty, yet you go on to say that you feel that Jackson is definitely innocent. And in doing so, you demonstrate that you do NOT believe that everyone should be viewed as innocent until proven guilty, as you will happily assert that Robson and Safechuck are guilty of lying about this abuse when there is - likewise - no concrete evidence on which to base that assumption that guilt? It's bias, Joey. The most you can say if you truly believe in hardline proof, is that there's not enough evidence to condemn Jackson OR his accusers - and yet, you freely condemn his accusers on "personal feeling".





Historically I've actually been inclined to believe that MJ was "weird but not necessarily an abuser" - indeed to give him the benefit of the doubt due to lack of evidence - but having watched this and having read around it and watched other footage - as I agree that the documentary is biased - I honestly feel that the weight of circumstantial evidence at this point is heavily suggestive of there being inappropriate behaviour. Would it be enough for me to put him behind bars, if I was Judge Dredd and had absolute power to do so? No, probably not. But to circle back around; personal views and absolute legal certainty are not (and don't need to be) the same thing at all.

Well they are lying somewhere.
That cannot be got away from.

Either on oath in a trial, or here with no repercussions possibly.

They were not, the only ones giving the same evidence for Michael Jackson years ago.
Others did too.

Now saying something opposite, of course I'm going to have to assess who is lying and likely when.
These 2 certainly have once at least.

Michael Jackson, this is something very relevant.
Was thoroughly investigated, put on trial and acquitted.
The court believed Michael Jackson.
Also witnesses for him, of which these were only 2 of many.

So the leaning for me is now they've changed their story, in the media, not that court.
Have now a claim in against the Jackson estate,.their appeal coming up soon.


I'm sorry, that would arise suspicion in me without my own legal training.
I watched every move and listened to every word from them last night.
I didn't detect, emotion or sincerity.


In the absence now of Jackson not being here.
I will take account of the long original proceedings of his trial in 2005.

These 2 who have chosen to do this now after his death.
While seeking a substantial payout from the Jackson estate.

I doubt were Michael Jackson here now, that he would be saying anything different he did at his trial where he was acquitted.

I also doubt if these 2 would have actually been doing this, had Jackson been here to now also refute their claims, as he successfully did at his trial as to others.

If I'd seen or heard anything from them to substantiate or remotely convince me they weren't being more than economical with the truth, I'd have happily said so.
However I didn't so simply don't believe them.

Their track record of lying, as either they lied before or are now.
Really doesn't help their cause, whatever that csuse may be.

[Crimson Dynamo]

whatever that cause may be.

their "cause " is to get justice for being abused sexually by a repulsive and committed paedophile

namely Michael Jackson

[Ramsay]

Can people stop using the the jury found him innocent as a reason to think he's not a pedo, a jury acquitted OJ ffs

[Kazanne]

Well they are lying somewhere.
That cannot be got away from.

Either on oath in a trial, or here with no repercussions possibly.

They were not, the only ones giving the same evidence for Michael Jackson years ago.
Others did too.

Now saying something opposite, of course I'm going to have to assess who is lying and likely when.
These 2 certainly have once at least.

Michael Jackson, this is something very relevant.
Was thoroughly investigated, put on trial and acquitted.
The court believed Michael Jackson.
Also witnesses for him, of which these were only 2 of many.

So the leaning for me is now they've changed their story, in the media, not that court.
Have now a claim in against the Jackson estate,.their appeal coming up soon.


I'm sorry, that would arise suspicion in me without my own legal training.
I watched every move and listened to every word from them last night.
I didn't detect, emotion or sincerity.


In the absence now of Jackson not being here.
I will take account of the long original proceedings of his trial in 2005.

These 2 who have chosen to do this now after his death.
While seeking a substantial payout from the Jackson estate.

I doubt were Michael Jackson here now, that he would be saying anything different he did at his trial where he was acquitted.

I also doubt if these 2 would have actually been doing this, had Jackson been here to now also refute their claims, as he successfully did at his trial as to others.

If I'd seen or heard anything from them to substantiate or remotely convince me they weren't being more than economical with the truth, I'd have happily said so.
However I didn't so simply don't believe them.

Their track record of lying, as either they lied before or are now.
Really doesn't help their cause, whatever that csuse may be.

In 2013, choreographer Wade Robson, who had testified in the trial that Jackson had not molested him, filed a $1.5 billion dollar civil lawsuit against Jackson's estate, claiming Jackson had molested him over seven years when he was a child. In May 2015, judge Mitchell Beckloff dismissed the lawsuit, saying Robson had waited too long to make it.
In 2013, another man who had spent time with Jackson as a child, James Safechuck, filed suit with the same lawyer as Robson. Safechuck claimed he realized he had been abused when he heard Robson's allegations. He alleged that he had been sexually abused by Jackson over 100 times in a four-year period, and had been "brainwashed" into believing the incidents were "acts of love". The lawsuit was dismissed by a probate court in 2017.
Robson and Safechuck's allegations are the focus of a 2019 documentary film, Leaving Neverland.

These were also dismissed Joey.

[Vicky.]

Can people stop using the the jury found him innocent as a reason to think he's not a pedo, a jury acquitted OJ ffs

Indeed.

[Kazanne]

Can people stop using the the jury found him innocent as a reason to think he's not a pedo, a jury acquitted OJ ffs

Well excuse us ffs for having a different opinion to you , he was investigated by the FBI , child services. police the whole kit and caboodle so forgive us for erring on the side of the law , why do people get ancy because some don't agree with them.

[arista]

https://img.discogs.com/Te2JEolZ-yMn5eQaEC-w_vDTF0k=/fit-in/600x530/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():qualit y(90)/discogs-images/R-9130059-1475289431-2525.jpeg.jpg

A CD you can Play
Great Musicians

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes but back then when he was accused his victims were still kids - now they are adults and want to talk about what he did

game changer

[Niamh.]

Well excuse us ffs for having a different opinion to you , he was investigated by the FBI , child services. police the whole kit and caboodle so forgive us for erring on the side of the law , why do people get ancy because some don't agree with them.

Paedophilia tends to bring out the "ancy" in people I find

[Vicky.]

These were also dismissed Joey.

Wasn't this a technicality though, statute of limitations I think?

[Kazanne]

Paedophilia tends to bring out the "ancy" in people I find

Maybe it does but nothing is proven on that is it ?

[Amy Jade]

I just watched it and it has not changed my mind. Still believe he is innocent.

One of the guys accusing him again is clearly just trying to raise his profile. Sadly in the wake of R Kelly I think some are just jumping on the bandwagon and calling Michael a peado to join the witch hunt.

[Ramsay]

Well excuse us ffs for having a different opinion to you , he was investigated by the FBI , child services. police the whole kit and caboodle so forgive us for erring on the side of the law , why do people get ancy because some don't agree with them.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations/amp

Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings

Please explain how he would know that

[Niamh.]

Maybe it does but nothing is proven on that is it ?

If it walks like a duck........

[Crimson Dynamo]

I just watched it and it has not changed my mind. Still believe he is innocent.

One of the guys accusing him again is clearly just trying to raise his profile. Sadly in the wake of R Kelly I think some are just jumping on the bandwagon and calling Michael a peado to join the witch hunt.

sorry but can you hear what you are saying?



You are accusing a man of confessing to have undergone vile debased paedophilic sexual abuse in order to...raise his profile????

I mean WTAF am i reading on this thread?

[Niamh.]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations/amp



Please explain how he would know that

Oddly the same victim who was paid off

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT1R9IKI80368giYne/giphy.gif

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its a 3 hour long ages in the making world wide documentary that will be around forever

to think that 2 men are doing this for sh1ts and giggles is just bamboozling

[Kazanne]

Wasn't this a technicality though, statute of limitations I think?

I'm not sure how it works I can only go by what is out there ,it seems the jury thought the families were not so trustworthy

In 2011, Universal Pictures released a documentary directed by David Gest, Michael Jackson: The Life of an Icon, arguing that Jackson was innocent.
In 2017, the documentary series The Jury Speaks (2017) covered the trial with four members of the jury. Some reported receiving anonymous threats, and one said someone had loosened the wheels on her car. All said they would acquit Jackson again, even in the wake of later allegations. One juror said: "It was pretty obvious that there were ulterior motives on behalf of the family , there wasn't a shred of evidence that was able to show us or give us any doubt in voting guilty."

So for me there are too many things that don't add up and until there is some solid evidence I will continue to be a fan ,being weird , eccentric and liking kids does not equal paedophile . just my opinion , no one has to like it.

[Amy Jade]

sorry but can you hear what you are saying?



You are accusing a man of confessing to have undergone vile debased paedophilic sexual abuse in order to...raise his profile????

I mean WTAF am i reading on this thread?

You know deliberately misinterpreting others posts to raise an argument is trolling, right?

I don't believe the guy was abused to begin with but prodded by his parents to say so to gain money off of Jackson and his reappearance now is to heighten his profile to get acting jobs. My opinion.

[Cherie]

Has anyone changed their stance one way or the other since watching?

[Ramsay]

Oddly the same victim who was paid off

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT1R9IKI80368giYne/giphy.gif

20 million wasn't it? hush money

[Amy Jade]

Has anyone changed their stance one way or the other since watching?

My mum thought he was guilty and after watching she thinks he was innocent.

[Kazanne]

I feel even more now that he is innocent ,lets see what tonight has to offer.

[joeysteele]

Can people stop using the the jury found him innocent as a reason to think he's not a pedo, a jury acquitted OJ ffs

So are you really advocating we all ignore anything that Jackson had substantiated to back up his denial.
In a court of law.

While accepting all the unsubstantiated words of just this pair now.

I think you'll find justice does not work like that, and I for one thank all powers that be it doesn't

[Crimson Dynamo]

You know deliberately misinterpreting others posts to raise an argument is trolling, right?

I don't believe the guy was abused to begin with but prodded by his parents to say so to gain money off of Jackson and his reappearance now is to heighten his profile to get acting jobs. My opinion.

"One of the guys accusing him again is clearly just trying to raise his profile."

You are claiming a middle aged man is pretending to be horrifically abused as a child by a paedophile in a 3 hour world release documentary to "raise his profile"???

are you quite sure?

[Vicky.]

I'm not sure how it works I can only go by what is out there ,it seems the jury thought the families were not so trustworthy

In 2011, Universal Pictures released a documentary directed by David Gest, Michael Jackson: The Life of an Icon, arguing that Jackson was innocent.
In 2017, the documentary series The Jury Speaks (2017) covered the trial with four members of the jury. Some reported receiving anonymous threats, and one said someone had loosened the wheels on her car. All said they would acquit Jackson again, even in the wake of later allegations. One juror said: "It was pretty obvious that there were ulterior motives on behalf of the family , there wasn't a shred of evidence that was able to show us or give us any doubt in voting guilty."

So for me there are too many things that don't add up and until there is some solid evidence I will continue to be a fan ,being weird , eccentric and liking kids does not equal paedophile . just my opinion , no one has to like it.

Sorry, thought you were on about these from last night. These men cannot get compensation or anything because of the statute of limitations. Hence, 'doing it for the cash' doesn't really stand up. Nor really, does 'doing it for the fame'..name me one celeb who is famous because they were abused?

[Amy Jade]

"One of the guys accusing him again is clearly just trying to raise his profile."

You are claiming a middle aged man is pretending to be horrifically abused as a child by a paedophile in a 3 hour world release documentary to "raise his profile"???

are you quite sure?

Just as you are claiming Jackson a paedophile with zero proof eh?

[Vicky.]

So for me there are too many things that don't add up and until there is some solid evidence I will continue to be a fan ,being weird , eccentric and liking kids does not equal paedophile . just my opinion , no one has to like it.

Also, 'solid evidence' is extremely unlikely after so long. Fair few witnesses, and many kids saying the same though. Circumstantial evidence is pretty overwhelming.

I will also remain a fan of his music. Seems daft to pretend otherwise just because I think he was dodgy as hell

[Vicky.]

You know deliberately misinterpreting others posts to raise an argument is trolling, right?

I don't believe the guy was abused to begin with but prodded by his parents to say so to gain money off of Jackson and his reappearance now is to heighten his profile to get acting jobs. My opinion.

? These are different kids, to the ones who were paid off.

[Kazanne]

20 million wasn't it? hush money

The police began an investigation into Chandler, and found that he was $68,400 behind in his child support payments, despite being well-paid as a dentist. On November 8, police searched the Jackson family home, Hayvenhurst, but found nothing of importance. They increased their efforts after no supporting evidence was found, and after questioning almost 30 children and their families, all of whom said Jackson had done nothing wrong. Officers flew to the Philippines to interview two ex-housekeepers who had sold a molestation story to the tabloids but decided it lacked credibility. Several parents also complained of aggressive investigative techniques by the police; for example, they claimed the police frightened their children with lies such as "we have nude photos of you", and told parents their children had been molested even though their children had denied it.
According to internal reports from the LA County DCFS at the time, Chandler's story remained largely consistent but dates, places, times and some details were inconsistent. According to reports, the DCFS had investigated Jackson beginning in August 1993 with the Chandler allegation and again in 2003. The LAPD and DCFS found no credible evidence of abuse or sexual misconduct. On the day the allegations were made public, August 24, Jackson began the third leg of his Dangerous World Tour, in Bangkok. That same day, Jackson's investigator held a press conference accusing Chandler of trying to extort $20 million. He did not mention that Jackson had made several counter-offers. On August 25, Jackson's young friends Brett Barnes and Wade Robson held a press conference in which they stated that they had slept in the same bed as Jackson, but nothing sexual in nature had occurred. Jackson's family held another press conference, saying it was their "unequivocal belief" that Michael was a victim of an attempt to take advantage of his fame and wealth.

[Vicky.]

Has anyone changed their stance one way or the other since watching?

I have drifted much further towards guilty. But not changed my view as such. Done a fair bit of reading..including all the fansites that go into huge details about how every single person who said anything negative was an extortionist or a thief and whatnot too. The odd person, sure. So many? Nope.

[Cherie]

My mum thought he was guilty and after watching she thinks he was innocent.

I feel even more now that he is innocent ,lets see what tonight has to offer.

I haven't watched it yet, not sure I want to watch 4 hours of it tbh

[Vicky.]

So are you really advocating we all ignore anything that Jackson had substantiated to back up his denial.
In a court of law.

While accepting all the unsubstantiated words of just this pair now.

I think you'll find justice does not work like that, and I for one thank all powers that be it doesn't

Do you believe OJ is innocent?

I have yet to speak to anyone who thinks he is..

[Cherie]

I have drifted much further towards guilty. But not changed my view as such. Done a fair bit of reading..including all the fansites that go into huge details about how every single person who said anything negative was an extortionist or a thief and whatnot too. The odd person, sure. So many? Nope.

I heard some guy on a radio phone in this morning say he was 100 per cent sure he was guilty until he watched it and now he thinks they are doing it for cynical reasons, I don't the we will ever get the truth either way

[Kazanne]

? These are different kids, to the ones who were paid off.

But they will get tons of money through this Vicky,the media will be scrambling for them, you should read up on Chandlers dad he was pretty dodgy.

[Kazanne]

Blimey ,this thread will beat all records on Tibb lol

[Amy Jade]

This was a tweet from music executive Clyde Jenkins. This is just some of the stuff this one sided documentary conveniently left out. Anyone can make a documentary and make it look like it’s the whole truth. It’s not.

Tweet����
Wade Robson... you should be ashamed of yourself!!! You and your family befriended the biggest star in the world. I personally recall your mom Joy calling MJJ Music with a sob story about needing money knowing that Michael Jackson loved her and your entire family and would do anything to help her. Michael especially loved you like a son because you dreamed of being a dancer as your mother took you around Australia impersonating who.... Michael Jackson.

Your family moved to the United States leaving your father behind and Michael gave you a record deal as part of a rap duo named QUO! It FAILED!!!

Michael Set you up with his niece Brandi and you guys were together for several years... until you CHEATED with other woman several Times.... she left you!

You still remained in the Jackson Circle.... Why? Because it opened doors for you being associated with Michael Jackson and his family.

That association with Michael Jackson afforded you the opportunity to befriend such artist as Justin Timberlake and Brittany spears... and what did you do...You started working with Justin as a Choreographer and then slept with his girlfriend Brittany Spears and was FIRED. Justin then wrote a song about it called "Cry Me A River". And yet you called Justin your FRIEND!!!

You used your association with Michael Jackson to befriend PRINCE and Mayte.... and what did you do.... You slept with HER!!! Some friend you are!!

You use your association with Michael Jackson to get yourself a gig on a television dance show.... word gets out about your previous disregard and loyalty toward high profile celebrities... and what happens.... you get CUT from that show.

Michael Jackson plans his THIS IS IT concert and you BEG to be the choreographer for the show.... Michael Chooses another Choreographer.... what do you do now that your web of lies are catching up with you and you are now Hollywood damaged goods.... You turn on the one man who looked out for you and your family your ENTIRE life and make up child abuse/molestation allegations that you have emphatically stated for many many years....NEVER HAPPENED!!

Fast forward to today... Michael Jackson is sadly NO LONGER with us. You now beg Michaels Nephew Taj Jackson for VIP access to Michael Jacksons funeral for YOU and your entire family. yet you claim this monster molested you...Sick.

You are now considered a home wrecking, disloyal individual and is essentially blackballed from Hollywood. What do you do? Because You know the world knows you are associated with Michael Jackson.... you use that association once again to change your LIFE LONG STORY to now claim... Michael Jackson molested you. Why? because you are BROKE and your wife is demanding you start making money or she will leave you.

You now convince another broke kid from Michaels past (Pepsi commercial) to join you in a frivolous lawsuit against Michael Jacksons Estate for 100's of Millions of dollars. The courts agree that there is no merit to this lawsuit and dismiss it!!

The Jackson family never fight back when people say disparaging things about their family. Mrs. Jackson once told me when i questioned her about this... she replied "because DIRT sinks and CREAM rises"

Wade knows this to be true as well.... so what does he do? He and James Safechuck concoct a story so salacious, so scandalous so despicable, and presents it to HBO for a one sided EXPLOSIVE televised documentary of LIES... in hopes that the Michael Jackson BILLION DOLLAR ESTATE will settle with you financially to make this documentary go away.

Well that documentary of LIES will air this weekend.... and unlike the Jackson's past... this new generations of Jackson kids are not having it!! they are suing HBO for airing your lying ass!!

I hope when this is all said and done, the estate counter sues YOU in civil court and WIN! I hope it renders you penniless for the rest of your life. Michael Jackson was good to YOU, your mother Joy and your sister Chantel.... and because your gravy train has run out... THIS is how you repay him. You are a sad excuse for a human being!!!

Sorry for this long post... but knowing what i know I just couldn't be silent.

For any of you who thought Michael Jackson was strange... I get it... because there is no one else on earth to compare him to. Yes, there are other child stars who grew up to "blend in" to society...and i get it... But when you are Michael Jackson and the only thing on earth that is more recognizable than you is the yellow "M" at McDonalds..... that in itself is "Strange!"

Anyways.... i say... boycott the documentary... and if you MUST WATCH... know that you now know the basis of the scandalous lies contained within the documentary!

Let that man rest in PEACE!!!

Clyde

(This is from facebook)

[Vicky.]

I heard some guy on a radio phone in this morning say he was 100 per cent sure he was guilty until he watched it and now he thinks they are doing it for cynical reasons, I don't the we will ever get the truth either way

I don't understand this at all?

OK I get that some simply dont believe the guys, thats up to them.

However, how could anyone think he was guilty, then watch 2 more people tell their story and suddenly think him innocent? what was it that made them think he was guilty before, and why would the program switch that? Genuinely trying to understand it but makes no sense to me!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Just as you are claiming Jackson a paedophile with zero proof eh?

zero proof?

again what you are posting does not make sense in relation to this thread

re-read the thread as you have jumped in too quickly

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't understand this at all?

OK I get that some simply dont believe the guys, thats up to them.

However, how could anyone think he was guilty, then watch 2 more people tell their story and suddenly think him innocent? what was it that made them think he was guilty before, and why would the program switch that? Genuinely trying to understand it but makes no sense to me!

it makes no sense and i dont buy it as truth

[Kazanne]

This was a tweet from music executive Clyde Jenkins. This is just some of the stuff this one sided documentary conveniently left out. Anyone can make a documentary and make it look like it’s the whole truth. It’s not.

Tweet����
Wade Robson... you should be ashamed of yourself!!! You and your family befriended the biggest star in the world. I personally recall your mom Joy calling MJJ Music with a sob story about needing money knowing that Michael Jackson loved her and your entire family and would do anything to help her. Michael especially loved you like a son because you dreamed of being a dancer as your mother took you around Australia impersonating who.... Michael Jackson.

Your family moved to the United States leaving your father behind and Michael gave you a record deal as part of a rap duo named QUO! It FAILED!!!

Michael Set you up with his niece Brandi and you guys were together for several years... until you CHEATED with other woman several Times.... she left you!

You still remained in the Jackson Circle.... Why? Because it opened doors for you being associated with Michael Jackson and his family.

That association with Michael Jackson afforded you the opportunity to befriend such artist as Justin Timberlake and Brittany spears... and what did you do...You started working with Justin as a Choreographer and then slept with his girlfriend Brittany Spears and was FIRED. Justin then wrote a song about it called "Cry Me A River". And yet you called Justin your FRIEND!!!

You used your association with Michael Jackson to befriend PRINCE and Mayte.... and what did you do.... You slept with HER!!! Some friend you are!!

You use your association with Michael Jackson to get yourself a gig on a television dance show.... word gets out about your previous disregard and loyalty toward high profile celebrities... and what happens.... you get CUT from that show.

Michael Jackson plans his THIS IS IT concert and you BEG to be the choreographer for the show.... Michael Chooses another Choreographer.... what do you do now that your web of lies are catching up with you and you are now Hollywood damaged goods.... You turn on the one man who looked out for you and your family your ENTIRE life and make up child abuse/molestation allegations that you have emphatically stated for many many years....NEVER HAPPENED!!

Fast forward to today... Michael Jackson is sadly NO LONGER with us. You now beg Michaels Nephew Taj Jackson for VIP access to Michael Jacksons funeral for YOU and your entire family. yet you claim this monster molested you...Sick.

You are now considered a home wrecking, disloyal individual and is essentially blackballed from Hollywood. What do you do? Because You know the world knows you are associated with Michael Jackson.... you use that association once again to change your LIFE LONG STORY to now claim... Michael Jackson molested you. Why? because you are BROKE and your wife is demanding you start making money or she will leave you.

You now convince another broke kid from Michaels past (Pepsi commercial) to join you in a frivolous lawsuit against Michael Jacksons Estate for 100's of Millions of dollars. The courts agree that there is no merit to this lawsuit and dismiss it!!

The Jackson family never fight back when people say disparaging things about their family. Mrs. Jackson once told me when i questioned her about this... she replied "because DIRT sinks and CREAM rises"

Wade knows this to be true as well.... so what does he do? He and James Safechuck concoct a story so salacious, so scandalous so despicable, and presents it to HBO for a one sided EXPLOSIVE televised documentary of LIES... in hopes that the Michael Jackson BILLION DOLLAR ESTATE will settle with you financially to make this documentary go away.

Well that documentary of LIES will air this weekend.... and unlike the Jackson's past... this new generations of Jackson kids are not having it!! they are suing HBO for airing your lying ass!!

I hope when this is all said and done, the estate counter sues YOU in civil court and WIN! I hope it renders you penniless for the rest of your life. Michael Jackson was good to YOU, your mother Joy and your sister Chantel.... and because your gravy train has run out... THIS is how you repay him. You are a sad excuse for a human being!!!

Sorry for this long post... but knowing what i know I just couldn't be silent.

For any of you who thought Michael Jackson was strange... I get it... because there is no one else on earth to compare him to. Yes, there are other child stars who grew up to "blend in" to society...and i get it... But when you are Michael Jackson and the only thing on earth that is more recognizable than you is the yellow "M" at McDonalds..... that in itself is "Strange!"

Anyways.... i say... boycott the documentary... and if you MUST WATCH... know that you now know the basis of the scandalous lies contained within the documentary!

Let that man rest in PEACE!!!

Clyde

(This is from facebook)

Yes ,it was VERY one sided.

[Vicky.]

But they will get tons of money through this Vicky,the media will be scrambling for them, you should read up on Chandlers dad he was pretty dodgy.

I have read the MJ fan sites.

Regardless of what Chandlers dad was or was not, there was not only Chandler.

[Cherie]

I don't understand this at all?

OK I get that some simply dont believe the guys, thats up to them.

However, how could anyone think he was guilty, then watch 2 more people tell their story and suddenly think him innocent? what was it that made them think he was guilty before, and why would the program switch that? Genuinely trying to understand it but makes no sense to me!

Quite a few people ringing in felt the documentary was one sided and dramatised for effect, of course there was a balance of views but that one stood out for me

[Crimson Dynamo]

Quite a few people ringing in felt the documentary was one sided and dramatised for effect, of course there was a balance of views but that one stood out for me

of course it was one sided that was what it was about

about the side of the victims

[Vicky.]

Quite a few people ringing in felt the documentary was one sided and dramatised for effect, of course there was a balance of views but that one stood out for me

Well yes, that makes sense.

But saying that because a biased documentary was made, you suddenly think he is innocent rather than guilty is plain, bizarre and makes no sense? :suspect:

I believe the Royal family had a hand in Dianas death. If a documentary came out tomorrow, of a friend of the family saying that they overheard conversations discussing how best to get rid of Diana and I disbelieved this person that they heard such a conversation and thought the documantery was biased...I don't see why this would make me think suddenly the total opposite? If that makes any sense, probably not explaining myself well at all :laugh:

[Vicky.]

As I said, I totally understand some will disbelieve the men. But, I don;t understand how on earth the documentary could make anyone who previously thought he was guilty, sure of his innocence D:

[Josy]

I don't believe them.

Wade (I think that's his name, is a liar, leaving important things out of the documentary because they don't fit with his description of events)

[Kazanne]

I have read the MJ fan sites.

Regardless of what Chandlers dad was or was not, there was not only Chandler.

It's not just the fan sites Vicky there are lots out there who doubted this guy,I got this about the Gavin Arvizo case
On December 18, 2003, Jackson was charged with seven counts of child sexual abuse and two counts of administering an intoxicating agent to commit a child sexual abuse felony against Gavin Arvizo. Jackson denied the allegations. Sneddon again led the prosecution.
The People v. Jackson trial began in Santa Maria, California, on January 31, 2005. The judge allowed testimony about past allegations, including the 1993 case, to establish whether the defendant had a propensity to commit certain crimes. However, Jordan Chandler had left the country to avoid testifying. Mesereau later said: "The prosecutors tried to get [Chandler] to show up and he wouldn't. If he had, I had witnesses who were going to come in and say he told them it never happened and that he would never talk to his parents again for what they made him say."
June Chandler testified that she had not spoken to her son in 11 years. During her testimony, she claimed that she could not remember being counter-sued by Jackson and said that she had never heard of her own attorney. However, she said she never witnessed any molestation. Jackson was found not guilty of all charges on June 13, 2005.

[Amy Jade]

As I said, I totally understand some will disbelieve the men. But, I don;t understand how on earth the documentary could make anyone who previously thought he was guilty, sure of his innocence D:

I showed my mum things to show how biased it was.

Wade Robson is a liar and a fraudster. This whole kick up now is just to widen his profile imho.

[Vicky.]

Again, I am willing to believe an allegation.witness or two came out because people were seeking money. I do not believe that everyone who ever said they saw stuff, or had stuff done to them is lying for cash.

[Vicky.]

I showed my mum things to show how biased it was.



Right, but if she previously thought he was guilty, how would a biased documentary being made on the topic change her mind? I can't make any sense of that at all and am genuinely trying to.

Thats kind of like saying.. I just saw a new documentary about OJ that was sensationalized and may have been untrue in parts. As such, I now think OJ is innocent.

Edit. the Diana thing was probably clearer. But it seems I am not making sense when trying to say what I am trying to say, so will just leave it :laugh:

[Josy]

People don't want to believe because they like his music imoI don't like his music, never been a fan tbh, still don't believe his accusers.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't like his music, never been a fan tbh, still don't believe his accusers.

but you would believe him when he says he isnt a paedo?

[Amy Jade]

Right, but if she previously thought he was guilty, how would a biased documentary being made on the topic change her mind? I can't make any sense of that at all and am genuinely trying to.

Thats kind of like saying.. I just saw a new documentary about OJ that was sensationalized and may have been untrue in parts. As such, I now think OJ is innocent.

I mean I could ask her when she gets home if you are genuinely interested. She definitely agreed with me that Wade Robson is a liar though.

[Vicky.]

I mean I could ask her when she gets home if you are genuinely interested. She definitely agreed with me that Wade Robson is a liar though.

I actually am, as it makes no logical sense to me at all.

Makes sense she would not believe them. makes sense she thinks its biased. Makes sense maybe she thinks it shouldn't have been shown. Makes sense that she thinks Wade is outright lying. But I cannot make any sense at all of thinking he was guilty prior to this documentary, then watching this documentary making someone forget whatever made them think he was guilty to start with, and thinking he is innocent.

[Kazanne]

I actually am, as it makes no logical sense to me at all.

Makes sense she would not believe them. makes sense she thinks its biased. Makes sense maybe she thinks it shouldn't have been shown. Makes sense that she thinks Wade is outright lying. But I cannot make any sense at all of thinking he was guilty prior to this documentary, then watching this documentary making someone forget whatever made them think he was guilty to start with, and thinking he is innocent.

Maybe people have seen more information this time round Vicky,

[Beso]

their "cause " is to get justice for being abused sexually by a repulsive and committed paedophile

namely Michael Jackson

This!

[Beso]

yes but back then when he was accused his victims were still kids - now they are adults and want to talk about what he did

game changer

And this.

[Vicky.]

Maybe people have seen more information this time round Vicky,

Like?

I am not trying to be awkward here, I just really cannot make sense of it at all D:

The entire show was about their version of events. So if you disbelieve them, I just don't get how that means whatever made you think he was guilty before, disappears. Especially given they were on 'his side' before this recent turn of events.

[Amy Jade]

I actually am, as it makes no logical sense to me at all.

Makes sense she would not believe them. makes sense she thinks its biased. Makes sense maybe she thinks it shouldn't have been shown. Makes sense that she thinks Wade is outright lying. But I cannot make any sense at all of thinking he was guilty prior to this documentary, then watching this documentary making someone forget whatever made them think he was guilty to start with, and thinking he is innocent.

I shall ask her and let you know x

[Josy]

but you would believe him when he says he isnt a paedo?I believe that the 2 accusers in the documentary I watched last night are liars, I believe both them and the parents are/were fame and money hungry.

I believe Wade had soured all of professional relationships on the Hollywood scene due to his behaviour so this is his last chance at bagging himself some big money.

I believe the court that found MJ not guilty of all charges.

I don't believe that someone that was sexually abused as a child would then as an adult practically beg that abusers family to allow him and his mother to go to the funeral.

I can't answer the specific question you just put to me because he's dead and I can't ask him?

If he's said in the past 'He isn't a pedo' then yeah I guess so.

[joeysteele]

I believe that the 2 accusers in the documentary I watched last night are liars, I believe both them and the parents are/were fame and money hungry.

I believe Wade had soured all of professional relationships on the Hollywood scene due to his behaviour so this is his last chance at bagging himself some big money.

I believe the court that found MJ not guilty of all charges.

I don't believe that someone that was sexually abused as a child would then as an adult practically beg that abusers family to allow him and his mother to go to the funeral.

I can't answer the specific question you just put to me because he's dead and I can't ask him?

If he's said in the past 'He isn't a pedo' then yeah I guess so.



Great points Josy.

[Beso]

This was a tweet from music executive Clyde Jenkins. This is just some of the stuff this one sided documentary conveniently left out. Anyone can make a documentary and make it look like it’s the whole truth. It’s not.

Tweet����
Wade Robson... you should be ashamed of yourself!!! You and your family befriended the biggest star in the world. I personally recall your mom Joy calling MJJ Music with a sob story about needing money knowing that Michael Jackson loved her and your entire family and would do anything to help her. Michael especially loved you like a son because you dreamed of being a dancer as your mother took you around Australia impersonating who.... Michael Jackson.

Your family moved to the United States leaving your father behind and Michael gave you a record deal as part of a rap duo named QUO! It FAILED!!!

Michael Set you up with his niece Brandi and you guys were together for several years... until you CHEATED with other woman several Times.... she left you!

You still remained in the Jackson Circle.... Why? Because it opened doors for you being associated with Michael Jackson and his family.

That association with Michael Jackson afforded you the opportunity to befriend such artist as Justin Timberlake and Brittany spears... and what did you do...You started working with Justin as a Choreographer and then slept with his girlfriend Brittany Spears and was FIRED. Justin then wrote a song about it called "Cry Me A River". And yet you called Justin your FRIEND!!!

You used your association with Michael Jackson to befriend PRINCE and Mayte.... and what did you do.... You slept with HER!!! Some friend you are!!

You use your association with Michael Jackson to get yourself a gig on a television dance show.... word gets out about your previous disregard and loyalty toward high profile celebrities... and what happens.... you get CUT from that show.

Michael Jackson plans his THIS IS IT concert and you BEG to be the choreographer for the show.... Michael Chooses another Choreographer.... what do you do now that your web of lies are catching up with you and you are now Hollywood damaged goods.... You turn on the one man who looked out for you and your family your ENTIRE life and make up child abuse/molestation allegations that you have emphatically stated for many many years....NEVER HAPPENED!!

Fast forward to today... Michael Jackson is sadly NO LONGER with us. You now beg Michaels Nephew Taj Jackson for VIP access to Michael Jacksons funeral for YOU and your entire family. yet you claim this monster molested you...Sick.

You are now considered a home wrecking, disloyal individual and is essentially blackballed from Hollywood. What do you do? Because You know the world knows you are associated with Michael Jackson.... you use that association once again to change your LIFE LONG STORY to now claim... Michael Jackson molested you. Why? because you are BROKE and your wife is demanding you start making money or she will leave you.

You now convince another broke kid from Michaels past (Pepsi commercial) to join you in a frivolous lawsuit against Michael Jacksons Estate for 100's of Millions of dollars. The courts agree that there is no merit to this lawsuit and dismiss it!!

The Jackson family never fight back when people say disparaging things about their family. Mrs. Jackson once told me when i questioned her about this... she replied "because DIRT sinks and CREAM rises"

Wade knows this to be true as well.... so what does he do? He and James Safechuck concoct a story so salacious, so scandalous so despicable, and presents it to HBO for a one sided EXPLOSIVE televised documentary of LIES... in hopes that the Michael Jackson BILLION DOLLAR ESTATE will settle with you financially to make this documentary go away.

Well that documentary of LIES will air this weekend.... and unlike the Jackson's past... this new generations of Jackson kids are not having it!! they are suing HBO for airing your lying ass!!

I hope when this is all said and done, the estate counter sues YOU in civil court and WIN! I hope it renders you penniless for the rest of your life. Michael Jackson was good to YOU, your mother Joy and your sister Chantel.... and because your gravy train has run out... THIS is how you repay him. You are a sad excuse for a human being!!!

Sorry for this long post... but knowing what i know I just couldn't be silent.

For any of you who thought Michael Jackson was strange... I get it... because there is no one else on earth to compare him to. Yes, there are other child stars who grew up to "blend in" to society...and i get it... But when you are Michael Jackson and the only thing on earth that is more recognizable than you is the yellow "M" at McDonalds..... that in itself is "Strange!"

Anyways.... i say... boycott the documentary... and if you MUST WATCH... know that you now know the basis of the scandalous lies contained within the documentary!

Let that man rest in PEACE!!!

Clyde

(This is from facebook)



Oh my goodness, jermaine has been busy.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I believe that the 2 accusers in the documentary I watched last night are liars, I believe both them and the parents are/were fame and money hungry.

I believe Wade had soured all of professional relationships on the Hollywood scene due to his behaviour so this is his last chance at bagging himself some big money.

I believe the court that found MJ not guilty of all charges.

I don't believe that someone that was sexually abused as a child would then as an adult practically beg that abusers family to allow him and his mother to go to the funeral.

I can't answer the specific question you just put to me because he's dead and I can't ask him?

If he's said in the past 'He isn't a pedo' then yeah I guess so.

You seem to know a lot about the motivations of both the accusers how is this so and how will they make money?

[Josy]

You seem to know a lot about the motivations of both the accusers how is this so and how will they make money?I don't claim to know a lot about anything tbf, I form my opinions based on what I've watched and read like most other people :shrug:

I'm assuming they were paid for the documentary, they will possibly be offered paid interviews etc about the accusations and so on.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't claim to know a lot about anything tbf, I form my opinions based on what I've watched and read like most other people :shrug:

I'm assuming they were paid for the documentary, they will possibly be offered paid interviews etc about the accusations and so on.

i doubt they were paid, do you know this for sure?

[Twosugars]

I believe that the 2 accusers in the documentary I watched last night are liars, I believe both them and the parents are/were fame and money hungry.

I believe Wade had soured all of professional relationships on the Hollywood scene due to his behaviour so this is his last chance at bagging himself some big money.

I believe the court that found MJ not guilty of all charges.

I don't believe that someone that was sexually abused as a child would then as an adult practically beg that abusers family to allow him and his mother to go to the funeral.

I can't answer the specific question you just put to me because he's dead and I can't ask him?

If he's said in the past 'He isn't a pedo' then yeah I guess so.

Well said, Josy.

[Kazanne]

Like?

I am not trying to be awkward here, I just really cannot make sense of it at all D:

The entire show was about their version of events. So if you disbelieve them, I just don't get how that means whatever made you think he was guilty before, disappears. Especially given they were on 'his side' before this recent turn of events.

Well maybe people have actually read some articles and educated themselves about it and now doubt his guilt and vise versa of course, but from the stuff I have read none of it adds up, I mean I could be way off but from the information out there I am thinking he was not an abuser, just very naïve,stupid and far too trusting he was done over like a kipper the media ALWAYS made fun of him so this must have been a Godsend to them and they will milk it for all it's worth,but whatever the truth is his legacy is ruined, and if he is innocent as I feel he is,I hope those people can live with themselves and those kids have a great memory to remember in such graphic detail times,dates and what happened, I feel their parents have a lot to answer for.

[Twosugars]

i doubt they were paid, do you know this for sure?
And do you know this for sure?

[Josy]

i doubt they were paid, do you know this for sure?Obviously I dont know it for sure do you know for sure they werent?

I'm sure I read though that they are both suing his estate.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Obviously I dont know it for sure do you know for sure they werent?

I'm sure I read though that they are both suing his estate.

would you not sue if you had been abused in that way?

[Kazanne]

Obviously I dont know it for sure do you know for sure they werent?

I'm sure I read though that they are both suing his estate.

Yes they are,for the second time ,first time it was thrown out there is a post on here about it somewhere.

[Kazanne]

would you not sue if you had been abused in that way?

No,I would have gone for justice the first time round,but kudos to them for waiting till he died

[Josy]

would you not sue if you had been abused in that way?Personally I wouldn't be interested in cash if I'd been abused in any way, money wouldnt change what had happened, mostly I would be seeking closure.

My opinion is that I don't believe either of them were abused.

[Crimson Dynamo]

No,I would have gone for justice the first time round,but kudos to them for waiting till he died

at their ages?

do you know of any precedent there?

[Vicky.]

Well maybe people have actually read some articles and educated themselves about it.

Well that would make sense of course, looking more into anything can change opinions either way. What I couldn't make sense of, is claiming that the documentary made anyone think he was innocent, when they previously thought he was guilty. As amy Jade said her mum said, and Cherie said someone on the radio said too... if what they meant is that they looked into the case a bit more and changed their opinion, that does make a lot of sense obviously, whichever way it swung. the way it was put across, honestly had me baffled :laugh:

[chuff me dizzy]

Yes and Bashir got a lot of stick for that as he twisted a fair bit of stuff, the 'story' tonight will no doubt be more or less like last nights,but I will watch it,not that I want to,not because I don't want to hear it but because I hate to think I have put any coffers or time into any of this,but if I am to comment I have to watch.

He got a lot of stick because he asked questioned Jacksons frenzied fans didnt want to accept the answers to !! Ive just re-watched Bashirs film and Jackson was found out several times bare face lying

1) At 1st when asked about Blankets Mam he sat she was a woman he was in a relationship with ,later on her said she was a surrogate he had never met

2) He said at 1st he had only had 1 operation on his face and that was on his nose to allow him to breathe better ,he then changed it to 2 on his nose, but denied every other op he had had, even his mate Stevie Wonder called him a liar on this one !! Everyone can see he had had a massive amount of facial surgery

This creep is a proven liar

[chuff me dizzy]

their "cause " is to get justice for being abused sexually by a repulsive and committed paedophile

namely Michael Jackson

:clap1:

[Kazanne]

He got a lot of stick because he asked questioned Jacksons frenzied fans didnt want to accept the answers to !! Ive just re-watched Bashirs film and Jackson was found out several times bare face lying

1) At 1st when asked about Blankets Mam he sat she was a woman he was in a relationship with ,later on her said she was a surrogate he had never met

2) He said at 1st he had only had 1 operation on his face and that was on his nose to allow him to breathe better ,he then changed it to 2 on his nose, but denied every other op he had had, even his mate Stevie Wonder called him a liar on this one !! Everyone can see he had had a massive amount of facial surgery

This creep is a proven liar

In your opinion Chuff , not mine I will not be brow beaten into thinking I am wrong at this point, sorry. tell me ,why didn't Bashir answer any questions at the trial ? Bashir is the pinnacle of everything that is wrong about media, and, actually, with the world. It was torture to see the documentary back in 2003,. He took advantage of a guy who was kind enough to open his house and his life to Bashir, backstabbing him in order to make a fortune. He convinced MJ to trust him and not only that sweet talked him off camera and praised him. Then when it came time for his cameras to roll and his documentary to air, he did a complete 180 and made him look like this wired unstable man with pedophilla type ways. He was more the reason why MJ had to stand trial and when it came time for him to testify he sat there like a dumb assh*** and wouldn't answer any questions. It so obvious that Bashir was setting Michael up with a false sense of trust, like a spider spinning his live victim into a web to kill him later! Michael never saw it coming. Bashir cleverly edited some of Michael’s responses and added his own sinister wrap-around commentary during post-production, showing just what a snake in the grass he really is! This is only one example of the kind of toxic “medialoid” journalism Michael endured for most of his life — the results of which I believe ultimately contributed to his demise.plus isn't Stevie Wonder blind ?

[chuff me dizzy]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations/amp



Please explain how he would know that

WOW !!! In Tuesday nights docu it tells of Jackson having his tackle photographed by the police, this ^^ will be the reason why

[Vicky.]

In your opinion Chuff , not mine I will not be brow beaten into thinking I am wrong at this point, sorry. tell me ,why didn't Bashir answer any questions at the trial ? Bashir is the pinnacle of everything that is wrong about media, and, actually, with the world. It was torture to see the documentary back in 2003,. He took advantage of a guy who was kind enough to open his house and his life to Bashir, backstabbing him in order to make a fortune. He convinced MJ to trust him and not only that sweet talked him off camera and praised him. Then when it came time for his cameras to roll and his documentary to air, he did a complete 180 and made him look like this wired unstable man with pedophilla type ways. He was more the reason why MJ had to stand trial and when it came time for him to testify he sat there like a dumb assh*** and wouldn't answer any questions. It so obvious that Bashir was setting Michael up with a false sense of trust, like a spider spinning his live victim into a web to kill him later! Michael never saw it coming. Bashir cleverly edited some of Michael’s responses and added his own sinister wrap-around commentary during post-production, showing just what a snake in the grass he really is! This is only one example of the kind of toxic “medialoid” journalism Michael endured for most of his life — the results of which I believe ultimately contributed to his demise.plus isn't Stevie Wonder blind ?
Kazanne, is there a reason you keep just copy and pasting other peoples answers from random places on the internet? Its quite odd, in a case you seem to be extremely into, to not have your own opinions to add? :conf:

Edited to add ... https://it.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080320195635AAfS8Ap&page=1

I pointed this out last night too, the copy and pasting other peoples opinions and not crediting them for it. :S

[chuff me dizzy]

I'm not sure how it works I can only go by what is out there ,it seems the jury thought the families were not so trustworthy

In 2011, Universal Pictures released a documentary directed by David Gest, Michael Jackson: The Life of an Icon, arguing that Jackson was innocent.
In 2017, the documentary series The Jury Speaks (2017) covered the trial with four members of the jury. Some reported receiving anonymous threats, and one said someone had loosened the wheels on her car. All said they would acquit Jackson again, even in the wake of later allegations. One juror said: "It was pretty obvious that there were ulterior motives on behalf of the family , there wasn't a shred of evidence that was able to show us or give us any doubt in voting guilty."

So for me there are too many things that don't add up and until there is some solid evidence I will continue to be a fan ,being weird , eccentric and liking kids does not equal paedophile . just my opinion , no one has to like it.


But Kaz ,he didnt like "kids" he liked little boys ,but was clever enough to know if he said "I like little ,cute boys " he would instantly be judged for what he was ,so safeguarded himself ( or so he thought) by claiming he liked all kids

[Beso]

https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/8098868/quincy-jones-controversial-interviews-through-years


One of Michaels early mentors and producer of thriller.

[chuff me dizzy]

i doubt they were paid, do you know this for sure?

According to this ,they were not paid

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations

[Beso]

WOW !!! In Tuesday nights docu it tells of Jackson having his tackle photographed by the police, this ^^ will be the reason why

In fairness they didn't match by what I've read.

[chuff me dizzy]

In your opinion Chuff , not mine I will not be brow beaten into thinking I am wrong at this point, sorry. tell me ,why didn't Bashir answer any questions at the trial ? Bashir is the pinnacle of everything that is wrong about media, and, actually, with the world. It was torture to see the documentary back in 2003,. He took advantage of a guy who was kind enough to open his house and his life to Bashir, backstabbing him in order to make a fortune. He convinced MJ to trust him and not only that sweet talked him off camera and praised him. Then when it came time for his cameras to roll and his documentary to air, he did a complete 180 and made him look like this wired unstable man with pedophilla type ways. He was more the reason why MJ had to stand trial and when it came time for him to testify he sat there like a dumb assh*** and wouldn't answer any questions. It so obvious that Bashir was setting Michael up with a false sense of trust, like a spider spinning his live victim into a web to kill him later! Michael never saw it coming. Bashir cleverly edited some of Michael’s responses and added his own sinister wrap-around commentary during post-production, showing just what a snake in the grass he really is! This is only one example of the kind of toxic “medialoid” journalism Michael endured for most of his life — the results of which I believe ultimately contributed to his demise.plus isn't Stevie Wonder blind ?

Yes Stevies blind, but can see MJ was lying about not have his entire face rebuilt ......... Honestly Kaz re watch Bashirs film

[chuff me dizzy]

In fairness they didn't match by what I've read.


Im wowing at it being part of Tuesday show, I thought at 1st it was a load of ****e having photos taken of his nether regions, but it appears to be true

[Beso]

Im wowing at it being part of Tuesday show, I thought at 1st it was a load of ****e having photos taken of his nether regions, but it appears to be true

Should have swabbed it for dna imo.

[user104658]

Kazanne, is there a reason you keep just copy and pasting other peoples answers from random places on the internet? Its quite odd, in a case you seem to be extremely into, to not have your own opinions to add? :conf:

Edited to add ... https://it.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080320195635AAfS8Ap&page=1


:think: wtf

[chuff me dizzy]

No,I would have gone for justice the first time round,but kudos to them for waiting till he died

No one got judged or berated in waiting until Saville had died ?

[Beso]

Jimmy must have went to neverland.

[chuff me dizzy]

Jimmy must have went to neverland.

#NoncesOfAFeather !!

[Beso]

This is a good read.....

https://www.quora.com/Was-Michael-Jackson-really-a-paedophile

[GoldHeart]

Yes and Bashir got a lot of stick for that as he twisted a fair bit of stuff, the 'story' tonight will no doubt be more or less like last nights,but I will watch it,not that I want to,not because I don't want to hear it but because I hate to think I have put any coffers or time into any of this,but if I am to comment I have to watch.

Bashir was a 2 faced idiot , didn't he smile and say nice things about Michael's parenting then behind his back say he was worried for the children's safety ?? :bored: .

[Vicky.]

:think: wtf

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10468640&postcount=324

As I said, pointed it out yesterday too..odd :laugh:

[Kazanne]

Kazanne, is there a reason you keep just copy and pasting other peoples answers from random places on the internet? Its quite odd, in a case you seem to be extremely into, to not have your own opinions to add? :conf:

Edited to add ... https://it.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080320195635AAfS8Ap&page=1

I pointed this out last night too, the copy and pasting other peoples opinions and not crediting them for it. :S

I never claimed them to be mine I posted them as they are posts that I agree with saves me typing them,most are from Wikipedia,what is wrong with searching around for information and if I agree with an opinion I post it,I don't see the problem.i didn't realise it wasn't allowed, plus isn't it the same as posting links?

[Vicky.]

I never claimed them to be mine I posted them as they are posts that I agree with saves me posting them,most are from Wikipedia,what is wrong with searching around for information and if I agree with an opinion I post it,I don't see the problem.

Posting them as if they are yours, kind of says you are trying to pass them off as yours :laugh: Fair enough agreeing with them, but copy and pasting randomers arguments from random places on the internet..is really strange. Especially when not putting the links or anything D:

Maybe its just me, but it seems so strange to have such strong feelings on a case but using other peoples posts instead of your own.

[Kazanne]

Posting them as if they are yours, kind of says you are trying to pass them off as yours :laugh: Fair enough agreeing with them, but copy and pasting randomers arguments from random places on the internet..is really strange. Especially when not putting the links or anything D:

Well the link is Wikipedia,and Yahoo,why does it matter if they are sentiments I agree with :shrug:sometimes I can't be arsed with typing them all out.

[Vicky.]

OK each to their own I guess. Just a really strange way to partake in a debate :laugh:

[Kazanne]

OK each to their own I guess. Just a really strange way to partake in a debate :laugh:

I have been posting my own thoughts too but sometimes something is posted that has information that some of us might not have heard, some people might not bother to look so I don't see the problem in relaying that info.

[Beso]

This is a good read.....

https://www.quora.com/Was-Michael-Jackson-really-a-paedophile

Oh..lovely..you can quote your own post...hope that's not bad form...


K.. have a read of this it's too much not to add up to something.

[Josy]

I never claimed them to be mine I posted them as they are posts that I agree with saves me typing them,most are from Wikipedia,what is wrong with searching around for information and if I agree with an opinion I post it,I don't see the problem.i didn't realise it wasn't allowed, plus isn't it the same as posting links?Well can you not do that please it's just odd and comes across as you passing it off as your own opinion, if you can't post your opinion in your own words then post a link and say something like this is an opinion that mirrors my own or similar, at least giving some credit to the person that actually took the time to put thier thoughts into words.

[Kazanne]

Well can you not do that please it's just odd and comes across as you passing it off as your own opinion, if you can't post your opinion in your own words then post a link and say something like this is an opinion that mirrors my own or similar, at least giving some credit to the person that actually took the time to put thier thoughts into words.

I've said already most are from wiki ,2 at most from yahoo.but don't worry I get the message

[GoldHeart]

I'll never forget that insane programme they aired about 15 years ago about all the boy's he formed friendships with. The slander & accusations were disgusting & wild .

They even went into Michael's sexuality & relationship background. They actually tried to link him as "gay" & "paedophilic" like they're both the same thing :crazy::facepalm: .

The guy seemed more asexual if anything later in his life , who just happened to of had relationships with females he liked plus he wanted to have kids .

Interesting how people forget how they made out Michael must be "gay" just because young boys spent time with him , gay community should be offended by that ridiculous statement.

A paedophile is a paedophile regardless of gender or sexuality , I know some have an obsession with little girls or boys but either way they have a perverted interest in kids in general .

[Vicky.]

Oh..lovely..you can quote your own post...hope that's not bad form...


K.. have a read of this it's too much not to add up to something.

Hmm this is new to me..from first answer (will be reading this for ages now!)

. Wade Robson 1990–1997

Testified in defense of Michael in 2005. Now suing his estate. Claims he ran the most elaborate child molestation operation in the world with the aide of Norma Staikos.

I wonder if this was on the last half hour or so of the documentary, the bit I fell asleep in...or if its from elsewhere. Have not heard this before.

This is going to be another of those things that I get obsessed with and end up not sleeping for ages as reading more I think :laugh:

(There also seems to be a LOT of names on that list, I knew there were more than a couple but not this many. - edited... Ah it seems its just a list of his fave boys, with which ones have so far alleged to have been abused, misread that totally)

[Vicky.]

A paedophile is a paedophile regardless of gender or sexuality , I know some have an obsession with little girls or boys but either way they have a perverted interest in kids in general .

I am sure that they tend to have age/sex/looks/build preferences. Rather than it being like..any kid.

Depends on the pedo in question though, obviously.

[Beso]

I am sure that they tend to have age/sex/looks/build preferences. Rather than it being like..any kid.

Depends on the pedo in question though, obviously.



Some of the true story books you read about priests...it definatly does....search "Paul connelly"my m8s mate, they grew up together. He has a film coming out very soon about his life.

[GoldHeart]

I am sure that they tend to have age/sex/looks/build preferences. Rather than it being like..any kid.

Depends on the pedo in question though, obviously.

You're missing the point . they tried to say basically "gay & paedophile" can't you see something very wrong with that?? :facepalm: .

I already said I know some have a particular fascination with certain children, but as I said his sexuality is irrelevant yet they tried to use that against him in that 15 year old documentary :bored:

[Vicky.]

You're missing the point . they tried to say basically "gay & paedophile" can't you see something very wrong with that?? :facepalm: .


..not really. Saying someone is a paedo because they are gay, sure. But saying he was a gay paedophile..well it does seem to be likely. Might be totally missing what you were getting at though

I havent seen that documentary, is this the one where he admitted sleeping with kids in the first place? As I think am going to watch that in a bit so will be able to answer much better then :laugh:

[Beso]

Wish there were funny memes out there.

[GoldHeart]

..not really. Saying someone is a paedo because they are gay, sure. But saying he was a gay paedophile..well it does seem to be likely. Might be totally missing what you were getting at though

I havent seen that documentary, is this the one where he admitted sleeping with kids in the first place? As I think am going to watch that in a bit so will be able to answer much better then :laugh:

No I'm not talking about the Bashir documentary .
I'm talking about another one where they focused entirely on the boys ,and they interviewed some of them . Michael himself wasn't in this one .

[Beso]

His fans should watch finding neverland

[Vicky.]

No I'm not talking about the Bashir documentary .
I'm talking about another one where they focused entirely on the boys ,and they interviewed some of them . Michael himself wasn't in this one .

Will have a look for that after the Bashir one. I expect there are hundreds of documentaries about it all though..

[GoldHeart]

Will have a look for that after the Bashir one. I expect there are hundreds of documentaries about it all though..

Well you'll probably believe the allegations ,but I myself back then was not falling for the BS and today I'm even more convinced it's all BS !!! . They tried their hardest to incriminate & destroy him & today they're doing it all again :bored: .

Vicky I find it very damaging how they originally went up in his personal life & sexuality to try and frame him as some "homo with a lust for little boys " .

Kevin Spacey conveniently came out the closet when he had assault allegations towards a young boy. I'm sure some people were angry as it could of been perceived the wrong way .
A pervert is a pervert regardless of sexuality that's my point .

[Crimson Dynamo]

20 mins in and its looking good for MJ

:umm2:

[Amy Jade]

Vicky I spoke to my mum and she basically said she was a bit ignorant to facts and thought Michael had been prosecuted for molestation and after seeing the first part of the documentary and listening to me talk about it and the inconsistencies she believes he is innocent and being used for money.

She also said she has read some facts today that have made her even more confident that he was not guilty of molestation but either way as he is passed sadly his name cannot be cleared as easily as it once was.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wonder what facts ?

From where

[Vicky.]

Vicky I spoke to my mum and she basically said she was a bit ignorant to facts and thought Michael had been prosecuted for molestation and after seeing the first part of the documentary and listening to me talk about it and the inconsistencies she believes he is innocent and being used for money.

She also said she has read some facts today that have made her even more confident that he was not guilty of molestation but either way as he is passed sadly his name cannot be cleared as easily as it once was.

Yeah that makes sense..kazanne basically said the same thing. I was getting so stuck on..basically how the actual doc could make anyone think he was innocent and didnt really consider that the doc made people look into it a bit more and THAT was what changed their minds, not the actual documentary :laugh: Having a blonde day I think

[Kazanne]

So they WERE adults when they testified the second time. and why didn't he tell his mom when she asked him he was a grown up then.

[joeysteele]

So they WERE adults when they testified the second time

They are like robots.
It's like they are talking about what they bought at a store.

There's no passion, no emotion.
Even talking about things they say he did, he didn't like.

Even from the Mother of one so far.
All that seems to have upset them is that Michael Jackson had stopped contacting them much.

As for the underwear blood issue.
He went to get them, he says, saw blood on them and just threw them away..
Not worrying about his blood on them.

Oh come on, for goodness sake, as a child if I was bleeding even from a cut, I'd have near panicked.
I'd certainly have if blood was on my underwear.
I'd have gone straight to my parents.

[Kazanne]

They are like robots.
It's like they are talking about what they bought at a store.

There's no passion, no emotion.
Even talking about things they say he did, he didn't like.

Even from the Mother of one so far.
All that seems to have upset them is that Michael Jackson had stopped contacting them much.

As for the underwear blood issue.
He went to get them, he says, saw blood on them and just threw them away..
Not worrying about his blood on them.

Oh come on, for goodness sake, as a child if I was bleeding even from a cut, I'd have near panicked.
I'd certainly have if blood was on my underwear.
I'd have gone straight to my parents.

Well if whatever they say happened surely he wouldn't have his pants on,and whats this they are actually at the funeral !!!

[joeysteele]

Well if whatever they say happened surely he wouldn't have his pants on,and whats this they are actually at the funeral !!!

Well indeed yes, extremely good point.
Very well thought out Kazanne.

[Niamh.]

So they WERE adults when they testified the second time. and why didn't he tell his mom when she asked him he was a grown up then.James didn't testify a second time, only Wade.


This second part is very powerful, I f8nd them both very believable

[Kazanne]

James didn't testify a second time, only Wade.


This second part is very powerful, I f8nd them both very believable

I know ,I couldn't remember which one even so he was an adult

[UserSince2005]

As someone who was abused as a child I completely 100% relate to wade’s story. He’s telling the truth. I don’t think someone could explain his experience in the way he does if it wasn’t true.

[UserSince2005]

This documentary is actually so important. This is what molestation looks like!

[Kazanne]

This documentary is actually so important. This is what molestation looks like!

I was also abused as a kid , I would say not all experiances are the same,mine was not as bad as some but bad enough for me to tell someone straight away.the person in question eventually went to jail, that is how it affected me,I had to tell someone

[joeysteele]

Well if whatever they say happened surely he wouldn't have his pants on,and whats this they are actually at the funeral !!!

I may have come to actually have even less trust in what they are saying than I did last night.

What I will say there seems there has been a really cold emotionless relationship with at least one of the Mothers.

[Kazanne]

I may have come to actually have even less trust in what they are saying than I did last night.

What I will say there seems there has been a really cold emotionless relationship with at least one of the Mothers.

Joey it all seems very very bizarre

[GoldHeart]

I was also abused as a kid , I would say not all experiances are the same,mine was not as bad as some but bad enough for me to tell someone straight away.the person in question eventually went to jail, that is how it affected me,I had to tell someone

Yeah anything that traumatic I agree you'd tell someone or at least show warning signs, but as you say every experience is different. But non of their stories add up.

I haven't watched it yet ,but the graphic details of the abuse sounds dodgy to me . Why is it talked about in that way. And the business about blood that I'm hearing sounds stupid , surely you'd tell someone .

[Kazanne]

Yeah anything that traumatic I agree you'd tell someone or at least show warning signs, but as you say every experience is different. But non of their stories add up.

I haven't watched it yet ,but the graphic details of the abuse sounds dodgy to me . Why is it talked about in that way. And the business about blood that I'm hearing sounds stupid , surely you'd tell someone .

I was 9 Goldheart and I told my brother on the same day it happened,so to leave it for 2 decades is strange to me,I don't think there is any need for the graphic details either .

[Niamh.]

I was 9 Goldheart and I told my brother on the same day it happened,so to leave it for 2 decades is strange to me,I don't think there is any need for the graphic details either .With all due respect Kaz, people react differently and people waiting years to face child sexual abuse is quite common

[Kazanne]

With all due respect Kaz, people react differently and people waiting years to face child sexual abuse is quite common

Apparently so and that is their way I guess,I just found I had to tell someone and quick and lucky that I did.

[Marsh.]

Macaulay Culkin And Corey Feldman were also already famous Hollywood actors prior to meeting Michael, and perhaps had more consciously involved parents that weren’t as blinded or manipulated by MJ’s starpower. They weren’t plucked from obscurity and groomed like Michael’s accusers and their families. It seems likely that he would theoretically choose his victims based on who he believed he could get away with abusing.

Macauley Culkin was already friends with MJ before he hit the big time.

[Marsh.]

There is simply not always going to be hard evidence in sexual abuse cases, especially those involving children. From the way it’s been described, Michael was extremely calculated in how he carried out the abuse. What other evidence could there possibly be other than the word of people who crossed paths with him? I’m sure he was smarter than to have child pornography laying around or have acts that occurred in his own home be recorded on camera. Although there was this particular instance of a housekeeper who testified against him, which rings very clear alarm bells:

I never said there is going to be hard evidence, especially all of these years later. I'm simply pointing out that words are just that and not the hard evidence some people seem to want it to be.


But by all means believe what you want I guess.

Not sure why you're saying this, as though I'm simply believing anything. There's no evidence either way so my opinion is just like yours.... based on the words of people we've never met.

To clarify, I don't necessarily believe MJ is innocent of all of these allegations. But I definitely do not believe in a trial by media 10 years after his death because a couple of blokes have a vendetta against his estate.

[Marsh.]

Cause it's a documentary about the 2 boys, not Jackson.

Bull.

[Marsh.]

The “he missed his childhood” excuse people always use it completely bogus to me. My grandad didn’t have a childhood, he was beaten senseless by his father for the majority of his childhood life. Yet, he knew how to function as an adult and didn’t allow kids to share his bed.

If MJ was a regular member of society, living down your road, and had the bleached skin, ever-thinning nose and publicly stated that he saw no issues with hanging around with children on their own/having sleepovers in the same bed (and that’s before even going into the actual child molestation accusations), he’d be absolutely lambasted. The fact is, people don’t want to let go of the legacy he brought with his music.

No one's used it as an excuse though? It's only ever been used to provide context to the type of person MJ was. Some people who experience trauma as children don't become functioning adults, whether that leads to abuse of others or self destruction. Not an excuse for their behaviour, an explanation as to their warped minds.

As for "If MJ was a regular member of society" I would say 80% of the things you list, especially his surgery and bleached skin most likely wouldn't have been the case if he'd lived an ordinary life. He can't be viewed as an average person, because he wasn't regardless of if he was a pedophile or not.

[UserSince2005]

Yeah anything that traumatic I agree you'd tell someone or at least show warning signs, but as you say every experience is different. But non of their stories add up.

It’s not traumatic to be groomed. That’s the whole point of being groomed. Once you understand that their stories add up

[Niamh.]

Apparently so and that is their way I guess,I just found I had to tell someone and quick and lucky that I did.Well that would be the ideal way to go about it but when you have intense grooming and brain washing in the mix too it must be very difficult to see a way to do that aswell, especially as a young child. People weren't as open with their kids (generally) year's ago either about potential dangers like that

[Marsh.]

And lets face it sherif, the BBC wouldn't pull his songs if there wasn't an ounce of truth in these claims.

And the BBC know something the rest of the world doesn't?

How ironic.

[UserSince2005]

I was 9 Goldheart and I told my brother on the same day it happened,so to leave it for 2 decades is strange to me,I don't think there is any need for the graphic details either .

I was 9-12 he was 16-19, I though we had something special. I didn’t want to tell anyone. I wouldn’t say I loved him but I guess our friendship was special over our years together. Wasn’t until I grew up I realised what a freak he was.
Two completely different experiences.

[Kazanne]

I was 9-12 he was 16-19, I though we had something special. I didn’t want to tell anyone. I wouldn’t say I loved him but I guess our friendship was special over our years together. Wasn’t until I grew up I realised what a freak he was.
Two completely different experiences.

Yes,mine was not a family member or close friend it was my best friends dad,so yes everyones experience is different

[UserSince2005]

The only thing troubling to me is how wade as an adult can lie in court against someone who is crying out the truth. But that is a deep personality flaw on his part. Almost psychopathic to be able to do that. The other guy knew right from wrong. I can understand him not being ready to talk about it so shutting it all down

[GoldHeart]

It’s not traumatic to be groomed. That’s the whole point of being groomed. Once you understand that their stories add up

BS , there's graphic details of sexual abuse so I'm pretty sure even if you were "groomed" you'd be scared as a child if something that graphic happened or you .

[Glenn.]

Can you imagine what he did to poor little bubbles

[GoldHeart]

I was 9 Goldheart and I told my brother on the same day it happened,so to leave it for 2 decades is strange to me,I don't think there is any need for the graphic details either .

And that's young you're only a child but you knew it was still wrong . Plus you didn't deny it and then later say yes it actually happened . I always thought it would be too upsetting to go in full details about what happened, but apparently not for these 2 guys I guess the auto cue or scripts help them recover :suspect: .

[user104658]

BS , there's graphic details of sexual abuse so I'm pretty sure even if you were "groomed" you'd be scared as a child if something that graphic happened or you .

Honestly, you have literally no idea what you're talking about and it's attitudes like this that allow abuse to carry on for years / decades. The complex psychology of child grooming and abuse has been studied in detail for decades and show that these things are not only possible, but common... but "you don't believe it's possible" and "you're sure something else is true". What utter nonsense.

[GoldHeart]

Honestly, you have literally no idea what you're talking about and it's attitudes like this that allow abuse to carry on for years / decades. The complex psychology of child grooming and abuse has been studied in detail for decades and show that these things are not only possible, but common... but "you don't believe it's possible" and "you're sure something else is true". What utter nonsense.

Lying on oath ,still being friends with MJ & attending his funeral doesn't add up to me .

Plus the mother laughing ,who does that on camera ?? Very bizarre behaviour.

[thesheriff443]

Lying on oath ,still being friends with MJ & attending his funeral doesn't add up to me .

Plus the mother laughing ,who does that on camera ?? Very bizarre behaviour.

Have you heard of Stockholm syndrome?.

[GoldHeart]

Have you heard of Stockholm syndrome?.

you can't use that as an excuse for everything . I don't trust them . Plus any mention of Wade dating Mj's niece?? didn't think so as that would mess with their narrative in the documentary .

[thesheriff443]

you can't use that as an excuse for everything . I don't trust them . Plus any mention of Wade dating Mj's niece?? didn't think so as that would mess with their narrative in the documentary .

I’m not making excuses, you said things didn’t add up to you, and I gave you an example of how victims can see their abusers.

[rusticgal]

I haven’t watched this yet. However as a child you are unaware of what is happening and wether it’s right or wrong.
We have youth players back in the 70’s who were abused at an age where they knew what was right and what was wrong..but if they complained they were threatened with an end to their career and only now do we hear of their abuse.
The parents were probably awestruck allowing their kids to stay overnight with MJ...as for the kids they were vulnerable and innocent.
Being abused by such powerful people..worshipped by many because of what they can do, just trapped so many people and made the abuse so much harder to report.
We are all so different...we all deal with things differently and a lot of strength lies in any individual who had the courage to report the abuse with so much to lose...sportsmen and women..actors and actresses. However not everyone has that courage at the time.
I know one of them swore on oath he wasn’t abused but now states he was...maybe whilst MJ was alive he still had this power over him..:shrug:

[caprimint]

I'm kinda surprised at the support for him tbh: combine everything - all the things he definitely said and did, all the reports of people about what they saw and all the testimonies of those who were abused - and it's obvious that the most likely conclusion is that he did abuse young boys
Agree with this

[GoldHeart]

And i hate how people use the excuse of "ohh well paedophiles don't abuse all kids" :facepalm: and "culkin was already famous" , if he was soo close to Maculay Culkin & Brett Barnes then surely something inappropriate would of happened?? .

I know predators don't abuse all kids , but surely they'd still be signs of grooming ?? and Culkin & Barnes spent ALOT of time with MJ so surely they would of seen evidence themselves that something very weird & wrong is going on??? .

wade robson and james safechuck claim he "moved onto other boys" aka Culkin & Barnes which implies MJ was abusing Culkin & Barnes yet Culkin & Barnes was never abused and they've always stood by MJ , there wasn't anything inappropriate going on with either of them . So why are we suppose to take Robson & Safechuck's word as gospel? :suspect: and why do Culkin & Barne's words not matter anymore ?? .

Culkin has had alot of issues regarding addiction and family life , he pretty much stated his own dad was abusive to him . So why would he say his dad is abusive but cover for MJ ?. I don't think Culkin would protect MJ unless he genuinely knew & felt he was innocent .

[Beso]

So they WERE adults when they testified the second time. and why didn't he tell his mom when she asked him he was a grown up then.

He explained clearly that he was worried about losing his career.

[Beso]

They are like robots.
It's like they are talking about what they bought at a store.

There's no passion, no emotion.
Even talking about things they say he did, he didn't like.

Even from the Mother of one so far.
All that seems to have upset them is that Michael Jackson had stopped contacting them much.

As for the underwear blood issue.
He went to get them, he says, saw blood on them and just threw them away..
Not worrying about his blood on them.

Oh come on, for goodness sake, as a child if I was bleeding even from a cut, I'd have near panicked.
I'd certainly have if blood was on my underwear.
I'd have gone straight to my parents.



No.passion, no emotion.....hmmmmmm. ..I wonder who stole that from them.

[Beso]

Bull.

That's what the front of the dvd cover will say...:smug:

[Beso]

And the BBC know something the rest of the world doesn't?

How ironic.

Yes to be fair they probably do

[thesheriff443]

And i hate how people use the excuse of "ohh well paedophiles don't abuse all kids" :facepalm: and "culkin was already famous" , if he was soo close to Maculay Culkin & Brett Barnes then surely something inappropriate would of happened?? .

I know predators don't abuse all kids , but surely they'd still be signs of grooming ?? and Culkin & Barnes spent ALOT of time with MJ so surely they would of seen evidence themselves that something very weird & wrong is going on??? .

wade robson and james safechuck claim he "moved onto other boys" aka Culkin & Barnes which implies MJ was abusing Culkin & Barnes yet Culkin & Barnes was never abused and they've always stood by MJ , there wasn't anything inappropriate going on with either of them . So why are we suppose to take Robson & Safechuck's word as gospel? :suspect: and why do Culkin & Barne's words not matter anymore ?? .

Culkin has had alot of issues regarding addiction and family life , he pretty much stated his own dad was abusive to him . So why would he say his dad is abusive but cover for MJ ?. I don't think Culkin would protect MJ unless he genuinely knew & felt he was innocent .

Women that have been clearly beaten up by their partners, when the police asked will they make a statement they say no.


There is a clear pattern between those that get abused keeping their abuse a secret and covering for the abuser.

[Crimson Dynamo]

All in all a depressing watch but of course now looking back it all adds up

utterly disgusting and as for the 2 mothers? well words fail me

[arista]

All in all a depressing watch but of course now looking back it all adds up

utterly disgusting and as for the 2 mothers? well words fail me


They enjoyed the Luxury
of it all.

[thesheriff443]

All in all a depressing watch but of course now looking back it all adds up

utterly disgusting and as for the 2 mothers? well words fail me

The parents are victims too.

[joeysteele]

No.passion, no emotion.....hmmmmmm. ..I wonder who stole that from them.

They were talking about being abused they say, of lying most of their lives up to now,
Now, they say, telling all with the unpleasant details.

With no emotion or passion at all.

Like reading from a prepared script, you get more passion from a newsreader reading the news.

The relief of being able to now reveal their story, particularly as to the abuse the allege took place.
Should have opened up loads of emotion.

A bit of anger at what happened, had it been true, would have surfaced.

They came across as robotic as the first night.

I doubt passion and emotion has been robbed from them.
I'd bet probably plenty of emotion and passion came forward when the court threw out their claim on the Jackson estate.
I'd like to see any footage of when they got that news.

If they lose this appeal coming up soon now after this documentary.
I'd again bet probably, passion and emotion would surface.

Since their gambling of having this documentary done at this time only, would have failed in the purpose they, (in my view), had for it to help secure hopeful success for money from the Jackson estate.

I feel as sure as I can be, there'd be probably lots of passion, emotion and anger, if we could see it then.

I watched them in both nights of this documentary.
Very closely.
They came across as mixing truth and an invention of lies, to cloud the issue
It's a clever process but things have to add up.

For me, therein was the problem, things didn't add up.
There was no change of tone, nothing, just like they were reading notes.
Yet this is an issue they were attempting to present that has affected their lives right up to now.

For me that attempt failed and rather badly too.
No way would I trust these 2 as believable or trustworthy and likely never as reliable witnesses.

[Twosugars]

Sad how desperate some people are for money.

[Kazanne]

you can't use that as an excuse for everything . I don't trust them . Plus any mention of Wade dating Mj's niece?? didn't think so as that would mess with their narrative in the documentary .

Exactly a lot of stuff about Wade was left out and them begging one of the family to be allowed to go to the funeral they sure didn't,t want to be left out of any limelight did they , the mother sleeping with the jacket and him testifying again and admitting lying under oath AGAIN and we are supposed to believe them ,buts all that is ok as long as MJ is demonised.

[Kazanne]

And the BBC know something the rest of the world doesn't?

How ironic.

They know the lay out of Cliffs apartment :hehe:

[chuff me dizzy]

Posting them as if they are yours, kind of says you are trying to pass them off as yours :laugh: Fair enough agreeing with them, but copy and pasting randomers arguments from random places on the internet..is really strange. Especially when not putting the links or anything D:

Maybe its just me, but it seems so strange to have such strong feelings on a case but using other peoples posts instead of your own.

LOTS of people copy and paste ,in fact I would say its something everyone has done over the years, why try to humiliate Kazanne for doing it ?

[user104658]

With no emotion or passion at all.


With all due respect Joey you focus on this a lot like it's something that's supposed to be universally agreed upon but frankly in my opinion you're completely wrong and off the mark, and don't have a good read on what would be a realistic amount of emotion to be expressing (and which emotions). I don't know if you're expecting tears, wailing and Hollywood drama? My wife works with people with serious childhood trauma every single day (yes, honestly, far worse than Wade and James' accounts which people seem to think are graphic. You have no idea.) and their emotional state is perfectly in keeping with people recounting past trauma.

They come across as anxious, bewildered and deeply, deeply sad to plenty of us. You might not be able to see it; but you need to stop stating emphatically that they do it "with no emotion" and realise that that's just your own observation and not a universal truth.

[user104658]

LOTS of people copy and paste ,in fact I would say its something everyone has done over the years, why try to humiliate Kazanne for doing it ?

Copying and pasting something as a quote and saying that it's a quote / where is came from is one thing and part of a normal debate. If someone copy and pastes some other random internet member's post from another site as if it's your own post it makes debating or discussing with that member entirely pointless for me and I'm sure for others. It's not a real discussion? It's a complete waste of people's time honestly... and let's face it, we're not making the best use of our time debating on here as it is :umm2:.

[thesheriff443]

Copying and pasting something as a quote and saying that it's a quote / where is came from is one thing and part of a normal debate. If someone copy and pastes some other random internet member's post from another site as if it's your own post it makes debating or discussing with that member entirely pointless for me and I'm sure for others. It's not a real discussion? It's a complete waste of people's time honestly... and let's face it, we're not making the best use of our time debating on here as it is :umm2:.

Debating is a pointless process in general we do it but it don’t mean anything.

[Kazanne]

Copying and pasting something as a quote and saying that it's a quote / where is came from is one thing and part of a normal debate. If someone copy and pastes some other random internet member's post from another site as if it's your own post it makes debating or discussing with that member entirely pointless for me and I'm sure for others. It's not a real discussion? It's a complete waste of people's time honestly... and let's face it, we're not making the best use of our time debating on here as it is :umm2:.

I have already explained most were from Wiki I was not going on to forums nicking posts ,I posted a couple of posts that reflected my thoughts and stuff people might not have known that's all .I haven't killed anyone........yet

[Crimson Dynamo]

snip/.
No way would I trust these 2 as believable or trustworthy and likely never as reliable witnesses.

would you trust Jackson with your 7 year old son to stay at Neverland alone in his room?

yes or no?

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/03/07/22/10719692-0-image-a-9_1551998416981.jpg

But you dont understand, he is a child himself and he just wants to be around young boys (not girls) as he loves their vulnerable innocent youth. Yes he sleeps with them but nothing happens



:facepalm:

[user104658]

Debating is a pointless process in general we do it but it don’t mean anything.

In a non-professional setting I agree that it doesn't mean anything but I disagree that it's pointless; logic and reason are skills and if you neglect them they'll go rusty.

Of course I'm talking about actual debate and discussion here not the arm-flailing and outrage that often seems to declare itself such.

TiBB is 95% of the time one of the worst places in the world for debate of course but for some reason we're all stuck here like some sort of bizarre purgatory of quicksand. The more you struggle, the more stuck you become :bawling:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

In a non-professional setting I agree that it doesn't mean anything but I disagree that it's pointless; logic and reason are skills and if you neglect them they'll go rusty.

Of course I'm talking about actual debate and discussion here not the arm-flailing and outrage that often seems to declare itself such.

TiBB is 95% of the time one of the worst places in the world for debate of course but for some reason we're all stuck here like some sort of bizarre purgatory of quicksand. The more you struggle, the more stuck you become :bawling:.

I find it very difficult to debate with people who are so wrong about so many things?

:shrug:

[user104658]

I find it very difficult to debate with people who are so wrong about so many things?

:shrug:

I don't think it's so much about right or wrong, difference of opinion is one thing, but the unwillingness to accept proven facts makes it impossible at times. I mean, I strongly disagree with Joey that the two in this documentary are robotic or emotionless but at the end of the day that's entirely down to individual opinion and perception.

But when it's things like;

"Err if a kid was abused they would definitely tell someone quickly."

"What proof do you have of that?"

"Just seems obvious to me. Doesn't seem right that they wouldn't."

"...but THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of documented, verified child grooming and abuse cases show that it's very common for people to keep these things secret and lie about them for decades after the abuse."

"Nah. I don't buy it."


That's when things start to become... yeh, pointless.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/03/07/22/10719692-0-image-a-9_1551998416981.jpg

But you dont understand, he is a child himself and he just wants to be around young boys (not girls) as he loves their vulnerable innocent youth. Yes he sleeps with them but nothing happens



:facepalm:


Yes Sadly he did Wrong.
Now Dead
And Sony/BMG now own most of his Hits

[Niamh.]

All in all a depressing watch but of course now looking back it all adds up

utterly disgusting and as for the 2 mothers? well words fail meJames mother at least seemed to really blame herself, Wades mother on the other hand , bloody hell, it's no wonder it took him so long to admit what happened

[Kazanne]

I don't think it's so much about right or wrong, difference of opinion is one thing, but the unwillingness to accept proven facts makes it impossible at times. I mean, I strongly disagree with Joey that the two in this documentary are robotic or emotionless but at the end of the day that's entirely down to individual opinion and perception.

But when it's things like;

"Err if a kid was abused they would definitely tell someone quickly."

"What proof do you have of that?"

"Just seems obvious to me. Doesn't seem right that they wouldn't."

"...but THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of documented, verified child grooming and abuse cases show that it's very common for people to keep these things secret and lie about them for decades after the abuse."

"Nah. I don't buy it."


That's when things start to become... yeh, pointless.

The same can be said for those refusing to answer questions the other way round such as why were the family so desperate to go to the funeral,why was the jewellery kept,why was some of the stuff about them omitted from the story,such as Wade going out with MJs niece ,and the claim against the estate that was thrown out so they try again,the mother sleeping with the jacket,Wade testifying AGAIN as an adult still defending Jackson,MJ yes he was strange but if you ask me so are these families.This is not a clear and cut case imo.Plus is posting pics up of him with boys supposed to say something as if you look around plenty of girls stayed there and had pics took.

[user104658]

James mother at least seemed to really blame herself, Wades mother on the other hand , bloody hell, it's no wonder it took him so long to admit what happened

I thought it was the other way around? :think:. It was Wade's mother who had been sort of cut off from the older brother etc. who was struggling to forgive her and expressed that she was struggling to forgive herself. James' mother seemed to have come to terms with it to a much larger degree.

[AnnieK]

The same can be said for those refusing to answer questions the other way round such as why were the family so desperate to go to the funeral,why was the jewellery kept,why was some of the stuff about them omitted from the story,such as Wade going out with MJs niece ,and the claim against the estate that was thrown out so they try again,the mother sleeping with the jacket,Wade testifying AGAIN as an adult still defending Jackson,MJ yes he was strange but if you ask me so are these families.This is not a clear and cut case imo.

Completely agree. The simple fact is as MJ is dead there is zero chance of ever finding out what happened (although even if alive he would still deny it even if it were the absolute truth)

All I can see is that lives have been wrecked / effected by the actions of a grown man towards children. Its a very sad situation but one that will never be resolved one way or another.

[user104658]

why were the family so desperate to go to the funeral

why was the jewellery kept

and the claim against the estate that was thrown out so they try again

the mother sleeping with the jacket

Wade testifying AGAIN as an adult still defending Jackson

Literally all of this was explained in the documentary AND repeatedly in this thread. You not being able to understand or "not buying" the explanation is not the same thing as no explanation being offered.

why was some of the stuff about them omitted from the story, such as Wade going out with MJs niece

I agree there were a few details left out (Wade cheating on Jackson's neice, and the stuff with Justin and Britney), likely because it was felt that it would make viewers feel less sympathy for him but I also fail to see how any of these details are relevant to what happened between him and jackson when he was a kid? If anything, unhealthy adult relationships and friendships are often a sign of a troubled childhood. I suppose they left it out knowing that people "wouldn't buy that".

[Kazanne]

Why would he in all honesty do the exact same thing after the turmoil he went through with the first court case, it almost ruined his career, so why would he go back there and risk it all again, If he was this clever bloke that set all this grooming etc up ,why on Gods earth would he risk all that again:shrug:

[user104658]

Why would he in all honesty do the exact same thing after the turmoil he went through with the first court case, it almost ruined his career, so why would he go back there and risk it all again, If he was this clever bloke that set all this grooming etc up ,why on Gods earth would he risk all that again:shrug:

Flip that question around;

Why would he continue to have close, questionable friendships with more children knowing what happened with Jordan Chandler? If they were just innocent friendships that he enjoyed, why wouldn't he say "I know people think it looked bad the last time" and change his way of doing things. And it's not even that he couldn't still befriend children, but why wouldn't he take precautions e.g. always have the kid's parents or another adult around to witness that everything was OK, if any kids sleep over always sleep in separate rooms, just general safeguarding.

Why wouldn't he do that? Unless he had a compulsive reason to want to be alone with children that he wasn't able to keep in check.

[Beso]

They were talking about being abused they say, of lying most of their lives up to now,
Now, they say, telling all with the unpleasant details.

With no emotion or passion at all.

Like reading from a prepared script, you get more passion from a newsreader reading the news.

The relief of being able to now reveal their story, particularly as to the abuse the allege took place.
Should have opened up loads of emotion.

A bit of anger at what happened, had it been true, would have surfaced.

They came across as robotic as the first night.

I doubt passion and emotion has been robbed from them.
I'd bet probably plenty of emotion and passion came forward when the court threw out their claim on the Jackson estate.
I'd like to see any footage of when they got that news.

If they lose this appeal coming up soon now after this documentary.
I'd again bet probably, passion and emotion would surface.

Since their gambling of having this documentary done at this time only, would have failed in the purpose they, (in my view), had for it to help secure hopeful success for money from the Jackson estate.

I feel as sure as I can be, there'd be probably lots of passion, emotion and anger, if we could see it then.

I watched them in both nights of this documentary.
Very closely.
They came across as mixing truth and an invention of lies, to cloud the issue
It's a clever process but things have to add up.

For me, therein was the problem, things didn't add up.
There was no change of tone, nothing, just like they were reading notes.
Yet this is an issue they were attempting to present that has affected their lives right up to now.

For me that attempt failed and rather badly too.
No way would I trust these 2 as believable or trustworthy and likely never as reliable witnesses.



What about the young cancer victim claiming jacko fondled him..?

[user104658]

What about the young cancer victim claiming jacko fondled him..?

And the kid claiming that MJ sexually harassed him by phone who has never tried to make any money from it. And another kid who has made claims, and never tried to make any money from it. And the at least six known "close kid friends" of his who haven't made any claims against him but refuse to defend him.

I can think of many reasons that an adult who was abused as a kid would want to just get on with their life and not come out now with accusations (that many will claim are false). I can't think of many reasons that a kid who was close to Jackson and knows he did NOT do anything inappropriate with them, would be silent and not at least say "He didn't do anything to me, that's all I have to say on the matter".

Why have these other boys stayed quiet if they know it was all innocent? Where were they at the two trials? No one seems willing to ask those uncomfortable questions, either.

[Beso]

He went from abusing healthy boys until he got found out then to me it looks like he went for sick boys who perhaps relied on his money more so may have stayed quiet...it didn't work..

[bots]

just by human nature a certain percentage of people will believe that Jackson is innocent no matter how much evidence is stacked up against him. That's just how people are, there is nothing wrong with that. However, it is the trusting nature inherent in many people that Jackson and others of his ilk took advantage of. Thats why it doesnt matter how good our justice system is, it doesnt matter how good our protection systems are, there will always be victims readily available for abuse

[Crimson Dynamo]

just by human nature a certain percentage of people will believe that Jackson is innocent no matter how much evidence is stacked up against him. That's just how people are, there is nothing wrong with that. However, it is the trusting nature inherent in many people that Jackson and others of his ilk took advantage of. Thats why it doesnt matter how good our justice system is, it doesnt matter how good our protection systems are, there will always be victims readily available for abuse

and add to that the fact that so many people have invested so much of their lives in his music its natural to seek the easier path of denial

[Crimson Dynamo]

"‘The Simpsons’ pull Michael Jackson episode amid sex abuse allegations"

source: lots of news media

[bots]

"‘The Simpsons’ pull Michael Jackson episode amid sex abuse allegations"

source: lots of news media

i bet Southpark don't pull their episode :laugh:

[user104658]

i bet Southpark don't pull their episode :laugh:

e-Gy-nhmO-M

ffs :joker:

[Vicky.]

LOTS of people copy and paste ,in fact I would say its something everyone has done over the years, why try to humiliate Kazanne for doing it ?

Beause quoting stories or whatever is exactly whats happened here :laugh: I mean, I have even quoted a post I have read elsewhere at times, once or twice over the years, but I say..this basically mirrors my views and quote it, and also link to the original post. Thats normal. What happened here, was not. Passing off someone elses posts as yours (especially in a topic you are passionate about, where you would have your own strong views..), is unusual regardless of who is doing it and I would point it out whoever it was. But meh. Shes been posting her own views since so, no bad.

Some of the posts since I last read this thread have been a bit gross tbh. Its one thing to say you disbelieve these men. Its quite another to be all (paraphrasing) 'the abuse could not have been that bad or they would have to tell someone' and trotting out basically a load of myths about how abused kids should/do behave. experts have looked into this for years and years and agree there is no 'right' reaction, hell, some bottle it all up FOREVER bringing on a load more mental health issues but still refuse to talk! But I guess people throw out all sense when discussing a celeb they like. Or so it seems.

[user104658]

and add to that the fact that so many people have invested so much of their lives in his music its natural to seek the easier path of denial

Honestly I get it tbh, I was a huge Buffy geek ( :umm2: ) in my early teens and if it's randomly on telly now I find it very hard to watch (because Xander later in life became an alcoholic and a woman-beater). It's tough not to think about those things if you try to watch it again.

Likewise, me and my wife loved the trash of One Tree Hill but I can't see it on TV now without thinking about how the showrunner was bullying and abusing basically every female cast member.

It sucks but :shrug: it is what it is.

[AnnieK]

Beause quoting stories or whatever is exactly whats happened here :laugh: I mean, I have even quoted a post I have read elsewhere at times, once or twice over the years, but I say..this basically mirrors my views and quote it, and also link to the original post. Thats normal. What happened here, was not. Passing off someone elses posts as yours (especially in a topic you are passionate about, where you would have your own strong views..), is unusual regardless of who is doing it and I would point it out whoever it was. But meh. Shes been posting her own views since so, no bad.

Some of the posts since I last read this thread have been a bit gross tbh. Its one thing to say you disbelieve these men. Its quite another to be all (paraphrasing) 'the abuse could not have been that bad or they would have to tell someone' and trotting out basically a load of myths about how abused kids should/do behave. experts have looked into this for years and years and agree there is no 'right' reaction, hell, some bottle it all up FOREVER bringing on a load more mental health issues but still refuse to talk! But I guess people throw out all sense when discussing a celeb they like. Or so it seems.

I think that is more a lack of understanding about grooming and how abusers gain the trust of their victims and quite often their families for many years before the "actual" abuse starts. Or at least I hope its a lack of understanding.

[Vicky.]

Why would he in all honesty do the exact same thing after the turmoil he went through with the first court case, it almost ruined his career, so why would he go back there and risk it all again, If he was this clever bloke that set all this grooming etc up ,why on Gods earth would he risk all that again:shrug:
See I see this from the otherside.

Lets assume it was all about money and that..ans there really was nothing to any of it.

Why, after having experience of extortion, and people making up 'vile lies' to try and pressure him to pay...would he then do the exact same thing again, pout himself into nthe same situation again where it was possible for some other 'vile father; or whatever to claim again? Honestly, if you had some odd habits, lets say you befriended random kids like some lady on our street did and took them to yours for hour long knitting sessions (this is actually true..I have fond memories of that :laugh: ) because they were bored. Many people found this odd, but if it had been a bloke they would have found it odder, lets admit. So, lets say this woman was wealthy..very wealthy, and one of our parents saw a way to make some easy money, so made up a load of stuff about how we were really learning bondage techniques or something, knitting underwear and parading it or something similar. Surely, the woman would not take in random kids into her house after this. Especially...if a second parent then did the same thing. Or she would, you know, make sure there was another adult there at the least, that kind of thing. She would not keep taking random children into her house for hours, with the curtains usually shut. At the very very least, lets say she really really wanted to keep knitting with random kids, she would do so, on the lawn outside or something, so there were witnesses, so noone could come out with stuff to extort her?

[Niamh.]

See I see this from the otherside.

Lets assume it was all about money and that..ans there really was nothing to any of it.

Why, after having experience of extortion, and people making up 'vile lies' to try and pressure him to pay...would he then do the exact same thing again, pout himself into nthe same situation again where it was possible for some other 'vile father; or whatever to claim again? Honestly, if you had some odd habits, lets say you befriended random kids like some lady on our street did and took them to yours for hour long knitting sessions (this is actually true..I have fond memories of that :laugh: ) because they were bored. Many people found this odd, but if it had been a bloke they would have found it odder, lets admit. So, lets say this woman was wealthy..very wealthy, and one of our parents saw a way to make some easy money, so made up a load of stuff about how we were really learning bondage techniques or something, knitting underwear and parading it or something similar. Surely, the woman would not take in random kids into her house after this. Especially...if a second parent then did the same thing. Or she would, you know, make sure there was another adult there at the least, that kind of thing. She would not keep taking random children into her house for hours, with the curtains usually shut. At the very very least, lets say she really really wanted to keep knitting with random kids, she would do so, on the lawn outside or something, so there were witnesses, so noone could come out with stuff to extort her?

Exactly. The only logical explanation that he carried on doing what he was doing is because he had a compulsion that he needed to satisfy that couldn't have witnesses

[Vicky.]

Exactly. The only logical explanation that he carried on doing what he was doing is because he had a compulsion that he needed to satisfy that couldn't have witnesses

Well this is all that makes sense to me, but there may well be something I am missing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

all the bs about "but he never had a childhood" - er he did have a childhood, yes if was different to many but he still had one and it was better than an awful lot of kids.

Jimmy saville and Rolf Harris honed their careers so they could be around kids all the time too

[Josy]

LOTS of people copy and paste ,in fact I would say its something everyone has done over the years, why try to humiliate Kazanne for doing it ?Copy and pasting is fine as a quote or acknowledging that you are referencing/agreeing with the statement you posted, it's not ok to pass the written thoughts of another person off as your own (Kazanne has posted that wasn't her intention)

It was brought up because its genuinely not fair on members taking part in the discussion or replying to Kazannes posts, they are basically replying to a stranger's opinion and well it's just odd tbh.

However why you felt the need to jump in and bring it back up again when it was over and done with I do not know but if we could keep on topic now please that would be great.

[Vicky.]

Just finished watching the second bit, fell asleep last night. Wades mother, saying she could forgive Michael as he was sick? Ugh. Regardless of the reasons I could never ever forgive someone abusing my kid. James' brother has the most 'typical' reaction I think, the anger. You can see it boiling away too though I can see why some would think he comes over emotionless too...that was MY reaction when I found out my brother was taken advantage of by an adult, when 8. So thats the reaction I can relate to the most. Just pure ****ing rage. I was genuinely going to kill this guy..my brother was still quite..confused and thought it was normal and a 'relationship' rather than abuse. My parents talked me down mind, luckily as I know I would have gone through with it and probably still been in prison now. I know now that it would not have been the best thing for HIM for me to do this. But at the time, there was just pure rage and disgust. That 'came about' by accident really, he never told anyone about the abuse, he 'slipped up' when talking about someone he admired, then further questioning brought out the truth. Honestly, he seems to have repressed it all now, which is maybe for the best. I do think it may all come out again though given he now has his own child and that does tend to bring it back to the surface :/

That was a load of waffle about nothing to do with the thread really. But yeah. I still do not think Wades mother seems...remorseful. The other mother neither really. Both seem to be trying to excuse what they did, and honestly I guess they were groomed too...but the thought that you could just ignore your childs welfare like that with bright lights and presents, its just awful. Maybe its one of those things that you wouldn't understand unless you have some experience of it, but I like to think some person trying to get at my kids..I would see it coming regardless. BUT, people don't do they, sports coaches, priests, the stories look like they have loads of warnings signs, but people seem to not pick up on it. Off to watch that abducted in plain sight thing now I think, as have been advised to by a few people.

[joeysteele]

With all due respect Joey you focus on this a lot like it's something that's supposed to be universally agreed upon but frankly in my opinion you're completely wrong and off the mark, and don't have a good read on what would be a realistic amount of emotion to be expressing (and which emotions). I don't know if you're expecting tears, wailing and Hollywood drama? My wife works with people with serious childhood trauma every single day (yes, honestly, far worse than Wade and James' accounts which people seem to think are graphic. You have no idea.) and their emotional state is perfectly in keeping with people recounting past trauma.

They come across as anxious, bewildered and deeply, deeply sad to plenty of us. You might not be able to see it; but you need to stop stating emphatically that they do it "with no emotion" and realise that that's just your own observation and not a universal truth.

No I don't think I'm off the mark at all.

I watched this with as open as a mind as I could have. Although like others, recalling there was a massive investigation done as to Jackson, charges brought and a high profile trial.
With several serious charges, not just one in which he was found 'not guilty' on every single one.

Now you can possibly choose to discount all that but I won't.

That was all done when, and he did too, Michael Jackson faced and stood up to all those charges.
Obviously alive.

This now, after his death, he has no chance to defend or fight it now, and these 2 know that.
Plus the fact they have already had a claim for money rejected, now lodging an appeal to still get it.
Then doing this documentary.
Frankly leaves me smelling a rat here.

Their whole performance in both nights, with no passion or emotion, left me with the feelingcI can't trust their account
The underwear,other accounts just didn't ring true and lead me to believe them.

I've seen more passion in a shop when an assistant has given change for £5 instead of £10, than ever came across from any in this documentary.
On this massive issue.

That's my view, my conclusion, what I believe from listening and watching their face and eyes as the told it all.

I'm not telling anyone what to believe or think, I'm saying what I do.
Other than making points in my view relevant to what brought me to disbelieve them, the only other thing I've done is respond to others responding to me, whether they do that positively and negatively, when and if I see such responses.

It's not for you to tell me I'm wrong.
A lot of time has passed before these decided to change all they've said most of their lives.

They haven't a scrap of solid evidence other than their word, their word which if they were telling the truth now, means they've lied most of their lives.

So, I have in my own way, in my view come to the point, I don't believe them.
They know Michael cannot defend himself against it.
They admit, they hardly or never saw him in the later years of his life.
Why didn't they change their deceit and lies then,if it was deceit and lies.

Why only do this when they are seeking money from his estate.
That appeal to come soon.
Then suddenly to want to do this documentary.

It stinks to high heaven, in my view totally.
So no, I don't consider I'm wrong in my thinking as you infer at all.

[UserSince2005]

Has anyone else seen Michael video response to the documentary on WhatsApp, ****ing hilarious. Wish it was online

[Vicky.]

Has anyone else seen Michael video response to the documentary on WhatsApp, ****ing hilarious. Wish it was online

My husband sent me it yesterday in PM on FB, bad taste D:

[UserSince2005]

My husband sent me it yesterday in PM on FB, bad taste D:

Yeah pretty bad taste. But funny.

[Vicky.]

I can see why some would think that. Humour is..subjective. My husband found it hilarious, and was not expecting the death stare instead of a laugh!

[Crimson Dynamo]

No I don't think I'm off the mark at all.

I watched this with as open as a mind as I could have. Although like others, recalling there was a massive investigation done as to Jackson, charges brought and a high profile trial.
With several serious charges, not just one in which he was found 'not guilty' on every single one.

Now you can possibly choose to discount all that but I won't.

That was all done when, and he did too, Michael Jackson faced and stood up to all those charges.
Obviously alive.

This now, after his death, he has no chance to defend or fight it now, and these 2 know that.
Plus the fact they have already had a claim for money rejected, now lodging an appeal to still get it.
Then doing this documentary.
Frankly leaves me smelling a rat here.

Their whole performance in both nights, with no passion or emotion, left me with the feelingcI can't trust their account
The underwear,other accounts just didn't ring true and lead me to believe them.

I've seen more passion in a shop when an assistant has given change for £5 instead of £10, than ever came across from any in this documentary.
On this massive issue.

That's my view, my conclusion, what I believe from listening and watching their face and eyes as the told it all.

I'm not telling anyone what to believe or think, I'm saying what I do.
Other than making points in my view relevant to what brought me to disbelieve them, the only other thing I've done is respond to others responding to me, whether they do that positively and negatively, when and if I see such responses.

It's not for you to tell me I'm wrong.
A lot of time has passed before these decided to change all they've said most of their lives.

They haven't a scrap of solid evidence other than their word, their word which if they were telling the truth now, means they've lied most of their lives.

So, I have in my own way, in my view come to the point, I don't believe them.
They know Michael cannot defend himself against it.
They admit, they hardly or never saw him in the later years of his life.
Why didn't they change their deceit and lies then,if it was deceit and lies.

Why only do this when they are seeking money from his estate.
That appeal to come soon.
Then suddenly to want to do this documentary.

It stinks to high heaven, in my view totally.
So no, I don't consider I'm wrong in my thinking as you infer at all.

what would be solid evidence as i note that is what you require?

[Kazanne]

Has anyone else seen Michael video response to the documentary on WhatsApp, ****ing hilarious. Wish it was online

I don't see it as a laughing matter at all for anyone concerned and Parmys avatar which is supposed to be funny is all over FB,didn't even make me smile,

[Kazanne]

what would be solid evidence as i note that is what you require?

Was anything caught on camera or video ? I am sure there would have been an opportunity to get some evidence but there is nothing, even in the Jimmy Saville case weren't there tapes of him saying lewd stuff etc,

[Ramsay]

I would say most pedos are careful enough not to record themselves in the act Kaz

[AnnieK]

The whole thing is mass of lies and contradictions on all sides. I've just seen that Le Toya Jackson said he was guilty of abuse years ago then said she lied too. Nothing will ever be proved one way or the other I fear.

[user104658]

The whole thing is mass of lies and contradictions on all sides. I've just seen that Le Toya Jackson said he was guilty of abuse years ago then said she lied too. Nothing will ever be proved one way or the other I fear.

La Toya was constantly coming out against him for a while, then suddenly went very quiet on the matter. One assumes the rest of the family closed ranks and told her to zip it.

[Kazanne]

I would say most pedos are careful enough not to record themselves in the act Kaz

That's not what I was alluding to,surely going to a place like Neverland you'de at least take a camera/video to keep those memories,so if as is reported people were suspicious of what he was doing,surely you would try and get absolute truth,I wasn't on about MJ filming anything at all.

[Marsh.]

#NoncesOfAFeather !!

https://media1.tenor.com/images/3240b08b8c1d722625dfb9e5d73b7b11/tenor.gif?itemid=3535805

[Vicky.]

That's not what I was alluding to,surely going to a place like Neverland you'de at least take a camera/video to keep those memories,so if as is reported people were suspicious of what he was doing,surely you would try and get absolute truth,I wasn't on about MJ filming anything at all.

That was actually covered in the documentary. I think it was the grandmother who said it..guards take phones and such off you. Which she found odd at the time 'but felt safe as her husband was there' or something similar.

That..is another thing that makes no sense. That 'rule', if everything was above board then of course people would want videos/pics of visiting somewhere like that.

[AnnieK]

That was actually covered in the documentary. I think it was the grandmother who said it..guards take phones and such off you. Which she found odd at the time 'but felt safe as her husband was there' or something similar.

That..is another thing that makes no sense. That 'rule', if everything was above board then of course people would want videos/pics of visiting somewhere like that.

A lot of celebs do that though from what I've read. Anything where people could make money selling pics, phones / cameras etc are usually banned. My ex was a DJ and did a few Man Utd parties and all his gear was checked for recording devices and his phone removed etc each time.

[Vicky.]

A lot of celebs do that though from what I've read. Anything where people could make money selling pics, phones / cameras etc are usually banned. My ex was a DJ and did a few Man Utd parties and all his gear was checked for recording devices and his phone removed etc each time.

Yeah that makes sense I guess

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yeah that makes sense I guess

but back then there were no phones that could record owt

[Marsh.]

but back then there were no phones that could record owt

That's why it was called camera/video equipment.

[chuff me dizzy]

I didn't need a lot of convincing to be fair, but if I did need it those 2 broken men convinced me last night ,how many more broken men are trying to live a normal life now because of what MJ did to them ?

[Marsh.]

I didn't need a lot of convincing to be fair, but if I did need it those 2 broken men convinced me last night ,how many more broken men are trying to live a normal life now because of what MJ did to them ?

I'm sure the dollars and exposure will fix them up good and proper.

[chuff me dizzy]

Copy and pasting is fine as a quote or acknowledging that you are referencing/agreeing with the statement you posted, it's not ok to pass the written thoughts of another person off as your own (Kazanne has posted that wasn't her intention)

It was brought up because its genuinely not fair on members taking part in the discussion or replying to Kazannes posts, they are basically replying to a stranger's opinion and well it's just odd tbh.

However why you felt the need to jump in and bring it back up again when it was over and done with I do not know but if we could keep on topic now please that would be great.

I switch my computer off at night and go back to what page I was last on and read through the comments in the morning when I switch it back on , that when I saw Vickys comment and answered it, as I thought was my right to do so ?

[joeysteele]

what would be solid evidence as i note that is what you require?

Had the one kept the underwear for one instance.
Only he went to get them he said.
He didn't need to get rid of them.
If they had not been conveniently got rid of 'by him himself, not even apparently worrying his blood was on them even, that was solid evidence.

If, I stress if, it was ever the case they existed with blood on them, and his tale had even the slightest element of truth as to it.

[user104658]

Had the one kept the underwear for one instance.
Only he went to get them he said.
He didn't need to get rid of them.
If they had not been conveniently got rid of 'by him himself, not even apparently worrying his blood was on them even, that was solid evidence.

If, I stress if, it was ever the case they existed with blood on them, and his tale had even the slightest element of truth as to it.

Joey he had no interest in keeping evidence or proof of what they were doing, he was as invested in keeping it a secret as MJ was, so why on earth would he keep them? He admits to being complicit in covering it up, but you don't believe it because he didn't keep evidence for a later date? Again it feels like you don't really understand what child grooming is, and that victims of it are not "hiding things away looking for a way out". They often want to protect the abuser and Wade Robson talks about this constantly throughout the entire 4 hour show. To say that you find it odd that he didn't keep evidence only shows that you weren't actually listening, or were unwilling to listen.

My honest advice would be to read up (properly, academically) on the psychology of child grooming. Not for the purposes of being convinced in this case, just because it's clear that you don't understand it or how it works and it's something that everyone should be aware of.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Joey he had no interest in keeping evidence or proof of what they were doing, he was as invested in keeping it a secret as MJ was, so why on earth would he keep them? He admits to being complicit in covering it up, but you don't believe it because he didn't keep evidence for a later date? Again it feels like you don't really understand what child grooming is, and that victims of it are not "hiding things away looking for a way out". They often want to protect the abuser and Wade Robson talks about this constantly throughout the entire 4 hour show. To say that you find it odd that he didn't keep evidence only shows that you weren't actually listening, or were unwilling to listen.

My honest advice would be to read up (properly, academically) on the psychology of child grooming. Not for the purposes of being convinced in this case, just because it's clear that you don't understand it or how it works and it's something that everyone should be aware of.

+1

[Beso]

Rumour has it Michael aint dead....he memo.

[Kazanne]

His albums are apparently climbing up the charts ,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/michael-jackson-albums-climb-the-charts-in-wake-of-leaving-neverland-documentary-and-radio-ban/ar-BBUwFy2?ocid=spartanntp

[user104658]

His albums are apparently climbing up the charts ,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/michael-jackson-albums-climb-the-charts-in-wake-of-leaving-neverland-documentary-and-radio-ban/ar-BBUwFy2?ocid=spartanntpAll publicity is good publicity, as the saying goes :joker:.

[Kazanne]

All publicity is good publicity, as the saying goes :joker:.

More money for people to extort from the estate.

[AnnieK]

All publicity is good publicity, as the saying goes :joker:.

Was always going to happen....his die hard fans were always going to show their support this way

[Niamh.]

His albums are apparently climbing up the charts ,
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/michael-jackson-albums-climb-the-charts-in-wake-of-leaving-neverland-documentary-and-radio-ban/ar-BBUwFy2?ocid=spartanntp

Thankfully he's dead so can't personally gain

[user104658]

More money for people to extort from the estate.

I mean in theory they could just give them the money from these sales since it wouldn't have been generated without them. Win/win?

[Kazanne]

I mean in theory they could just give them the money from these sales since it wouldn't have been generated without them. Win/win?

Yep,easy money ,they knew that.

[Tony Montana]

I don't know if this has been posted already (I can't be bothered to go back to previous pages) but his sister La Toya even called him a ''paedophile'' in an interview from the 90s. She later retracted it


https://inews.co.uk/culture/television/latoya-jackson-on-michael-jackson-interview-paedophile-leaving-neverland-allegations/

[Kazanne]

I don't know if this has been posted already (I can't be bothered to go back to previous pages) but his sister La Toya even called him a ''paedophile'' in an interview from the 90s. She later retracted it


https://inews.co.uk/culture/television/latoya-jackson-on-michael-jackson-interview-paedophile-leaving-neverland-allegations/

Yes it's old news Tony,I don't think she knows her arse from her elbow,lol

She later claimed that she made the 1993 allegations because her then husband Jack Gordon forced her to and she took back everything she'd said. so I don't think she is very creditable either.She also said he was murdered and contacted him from beyond the grave,lol. daft woman

[Crimson Dynamo]

When Kaz told me last year she was doing some freelance PR for The Jacksons I stupidly thought of Glenda

Now its all falling into place...

:suspect:

[joeysteele]

Joey he had no interest in keeping evidence or proof of what they were doing, he was as invested in keeping it a secret as MJ was, so why on earth would he keep them? He admits to being complicit in covering it up, but you don't believe it because he didn't keep evidence for a later date? Again it feels like you don't really understand what child grooming is, and that victims of it are not "hiding things away looking for a way out". They often want to protect the abuser and Wade Robson talks about this constantly throughout the entire 4 hour show. To say that you find it odd that he didn't keep evidence only shows that you weren't actually listening, or were unwilling to listen.

My honest advice would be to read up (properly, academically) on the psychology of child grooming. Not for the purposes of being convinced in this case, just because it's clear that you don't understand it or how it works and it's something that everyone should be aware of.

Goodness me.
I've read all there is to know on child grooming thank you.
Don't be so assuming I haven't.
I've dealt with those affected by child grooming too.


I was actually asked for what evidence could there have been.
I gave an instance.

So I answered that particular question.

You can hold to the view all you wish, he wanted to cover up all for Jackson.

I'll hold to my view he didn't, as I'm not convinced there was anything to cover up.

[Kazanne]

When Kaz told me last year she was doing some freelance PR for The Jacksons I stupidly thought of Glenda

Now its all falling into place...

:suspect:

:laugh:Good work if you can get it

[Crimson Dynamo]

:laugh:Good work if you can get it

you certainly cant Beat it

[Kazanne]

you certainly cant Beat it

It can be a Thriller sometimes:hee:

[Beso]

I don't see it as a laughing matter at all for anyone concerned and Parmys avatar which is supposed to be funny is all over FB,didn't even make me smile,

I knew I shouldn't have posted it....sorry Kaz.

[Tony Montana]

Yes it's old news Tony,I don't think she knows her arse from her elbow,lol

She later claimed that she made the 1993 allegations because her then husband Jack Gordon forced her to and she took back everything she'd said. so I don't think she is very creditable either.

Thank you Kazanne, I figured it may have been discussed already on here, but i didn't have the time to go all the way back to previous pages. I'd only just read about it today

Seems bizarre that her Husband would force her to do something like that

[Kazanne]

I knew I shouldn't have posted it....sorry Kaz.

You don't need to be Parmy, it's all over FB I was even sent it in a text,no offence taken from you.

[user104658]

Goodness me.
I've read all there is to know on child grooming thank you.


That is a bold and patently false statement there Joey. The world's foremost experts on child grooming wouldn't claim to know all there is to know about it and the idea that you do is just bizarre and I can only assume reactionary because you're feeling questioned. Surely you can appreciate that it's an outlandish claim.

[Niamh.]

Yes it's old news Tony,I don't think she knows her arse from her elbow,lol

She later claimed that she made the 1993 allegations because her then husband Jack Gordon forced her to and she took back everything she'd said. so I don't think she is very creditable either.She also said he was murdered and contacted him from beyond the grave,lol. daft woman

I reckon if MJ had come out himself and admitted it you'd probably say he was coerced or something Kaz