Do trans athletes have an advantage in female events? India W., Sharon Davies debates

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[Marsh.]

Why not get a trans-athlete?

Or at least someone other than the twat that is India Willoughby speaking on behalf of transpeople in every god damn TV segment.

[UserSince2005]

It’s a shame all these women believe people with or who had a penis are so much better than them

[Cherie]

India and Sharon :clap1:

Transgender Games are the way to go...

[Oliver_W]

The answer is "well, duh"

Biological males are (on average) stronger and faster than females, so of course transwomen have an advantage over women.

[Elliot]

Why not get a trans-athlete?

Or at least someone other than the twat that is India Willoughby speaking on behalf of transpeople in every god damn TV segment.

tbh, in the debates I've watched her in she hasn't been that bad (and is usually the voice of reason rofl)

[Elliot]

instead of looking at whether trans people fit into these systems, why not look at the systems themselves? or do people just wanna find as many ways as possible to dehumanise trans ppl

[Oliver_W]

instead of looking at whether trans people fit into these systems, why not look at the systems themselves? or do people just wanna find as many ways as possible to dehumanise trans ppl

Explain?

[Parmy]

Yes, they do.

[user104658]

I don't think so to be honest, as the hormones make them physically weak like females.

[Kazanne]

Yes of course they do ,it's a no brainer really

[Marsh.]

I don't think so to be honest, as the hormones make them physically weak like females.

Sharron puts a good argument across for benefits aside from strength. Bone structure, pelvis size, red blood cells etc.

[Marsh.]

instead of looking at whether trans people fit into these systems, why not look at the systems themselves? or do people just wanna find as many ways as possible to dehumanise trans ppl

In what way are they being dehumanised?

What an odd conclusion to make.

[user104658]

Sharron puts a good argument across for benefits aside from strength. Bone structure, pelvis size, red blood cells etc.

There is no scientific evidence that proves that those don't also change with the introduction of hormones, and lots of evidence that suggests that transwomen are simply more determined and train harder.

[Marsh.]

There is no scientific evidence that proves that those don't also change with the introduction of hormones, and lots of evidence that suggests that transwomen are simply more determined and train harder.

:joker:

[Cherie]

instead of looking at whether trans people fit into these systems, why not look at the systems themselves? or do people just wanna find as many ways as possible to dehumanise trans ppl

The fact that people are looking for a way that trans people can participate in sport on a level playing field is dehumanising?

[Cherie]

There is no scientific evidence that proves that those don't also change with the introduction of hormones, and lots of evidence that suggests that transwomen are simply more determined and train harder.

resorting to trolling now are we?

There are no long term studies that prove or disprove anything

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354790

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes its a no brainer

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8CPP1R2f7yp-aOzeM-6KTCbsiEsxhMe7TCgEexEKncL8fyVMFMM5OOErpe1lOtDY8_cc OydBJWOBTBTYLRLGow0OY7ccL0lcEA=s750

[Ramsay]

Obviously

[Vienna]

resorting to trolling now are we?

There are no long term studies that prove or disprove anything

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354790

http://www.teni.ie/attachments/9ea50d6e-1148-4c26-be0d-9def980047db.PDF

According to the above the effects of hormone therapy are very individual and there are no guarantees that such therapy puts transwomen on an equal playing field to those born as women. Who monitors they even take them? The outcome of such a “win’ will always be doubtful and deserving of scrutiny.

[smudgie]

Would it be fair to put a female to male trans in the boxing ring with a male opponent, I think not.
Same applies across all sports for me.

[user104658]

Would it be fair to put a female to male trans in the boxing ring with a male opponent, I think not.
Same applies across all sports for me.

Genuine question on that one though;

Would it be fair to put a female to male transexual in the boxing ring with a female opponent?

Do we just accept that there needs to be a "trans category" in sports? Or do we simply say that it's not appropriate for trans people to engage in professional sport at all? Isn't that a massive discrimination?

These are honest questions though; it's a hugely complex issue and I really don't know the answer. Despite my trolling above :hee: I've always been clear that I don't think it's particularly fair to have Male to Female transpeople in female branches of sport, because yes, there are clear physical advantages.

[Marsh.]

Well I would think a trans specific event would be the obvious solution. Just as they have Paralympics etc.

The only problem being the actual pool of trans athletes may be far too small.

[user104658]

Well I would think a trans specific event would be the obvious solution. Just as they have Paralympics etc.

The only problem being the actual pool of trans athletes may be far too small.

I'm sure if you think about that though Marsh you can see the problems there. People who transition do so to transition to the opposite gender... not to "become a trans". It's not supposed to be a third gender... that's sort of the point. I mean surely you realise that comparing it to a disability is (to use one of my most hated words) problematic?

I dunno. Like I said I can't figure out a working solution to this one that doesn't involve significant "othering". i.e. "I have to sign up for the Trans events because I'm not a man / woman, I am just a Trans".

And then, do you have a M2F category and a F2M category? Or do you just lump 'em all together and hope that it all hormonally and physically evens out?

[bots]

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

[Vienna]

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

Most factual and relevant post on this thread. Very concerning that, for some, discrimination against women is less important and that women make ideal scapegoats.

[Livia]

Are there any female to male athletes weeping that they can't compete with men? Probably not... Because what would be the point? They'd never even get picked.

I see this as just another way of men oppressing women. Trans athletes should be able to compete... maybe with each other? But there should be X chromosomes in every female competitive athlete.

Write this without seeing BOTS and Vienna's posts. Agree with both.

[user104658]

i think it's ridiculous that women are again having to fight against discrimination, and what I find most disturbing is that so many are happy with that discrimination just because it acts as an advantage to another discriminated group.

Would you not agree though that it's a problem that seems impossible to solve without some sort of discrimination occurring? Again I'm not advocating for it, just saying that this is clearly a hugely complex issue that people need to be exploring in depth, rather than jumping off one side of the pier or the other.

"Just let 'em compete!"

or

"No that's stupid. Tough luck for them! I'll hear no more about it!"

...neither are the realistic or sensible conclusions, here.

[Tom4784]

India spoke a lot of sense, even taking hormones out of the equation, MtF athletes will have advantages over female athletes. It's just a fact and I don't think it's transphobic at all to point that out.

[Livia]

Me agreeing with Dezzy....!

[user104658]

India spoke a lot of sense, even taking hormones out of the equation, MtF athletes will have advantages over female athletes. It's just a fact and I don't think it's transphobic at all to point that out.

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

[Livia]

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

[user104658]

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

That is, at best, a partial solution.

[Niamh.]

Genuine question on that one though;

Would it be fair to put a female to male transexual in the boxing ring with a female opponent?

Do we just accept that there needs to be a "trans category" in sports? Or do we simply say that it's not appropriate for trans people to engage in professional sport at all? Isn't that a massive discrimination?

These are honest questions though; it's a hugely complex issue and I really don't know the answer. Despite my trolling above :hee: I've always been clear that I don't think it's particularly fair to have Male to Female transpeople in female branches of sport, because yes, there are clear physical advantages.

I don't see why this couldn't be an option, it's the fairest thing for everyone

[Cherie]

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

A transgender section, with MtF and FtM categories, yes there is the issue that it might be a small category, but so be it?

I don't know what the solution is to team sports but we have to start somewhere

[Livia]

That is, at best, a partial solution.

What is it about women-only events you don't understand, TS?

If women allow this to happen we might as well go back to the 1950s and all you boys can direct our lives again... this time forever.

[user104658]

I don't see why this couldn't be an option, it's the fairest thing for everyone

A transgender section, with MtF and FtM categories, yes there is the issue that it might be a small category, but so be it?

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

[user104658]

What is it about women-only events you don't understand, TS?

If women allow this to happen we might as well go back to the 1950s and all you boys can direct our lives again... this time forever.

I've said repeatedly that it shouldn't happen but here I'll do it again if it helps;

It shouldn't happen.


What I meant was, "not allowing MtF transexuals in female sports" is a solution to the problem of unfairness in women's sports, but it's only a partial overall solution because it doesn't address the other part of the problem. I understand that this is the part you couldn't give a stuff about, and that's your prerogative, but you can't insist that other people shouldn't?

[Niamh.]

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

[user104658]

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.

[Livia]

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

I find it's always men who have the most to say about transwomen being included with born women, and that we're radical feminists if we disagree. I have no issue with transwomen... but they are different from me. And trans athletes... well, I can hardly believe that grown ups are suggesting transwomen compete with born women.

[Niamh.]

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.

No but it seems like we're not allowed speak about or discuss it. It seems like the Trans "side" are far more reluctant to debate the issue than women are. Women are being told either agree or shut up...... that is what's happening right now. Sport was changed without discussing it with women. Martina Navratolova was vilified for daring to raise concerns.

[Vienna]

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.

Well as women hugely outnumber transwomen I think a transgender section would suit mostly everyone. Case closed.

[Livia]

Well as women hugely outnumber transwomen I think a transgender section would suit mostly everyone. Case closed.

LOL... if only.

[user104658]

No but it seems like we're not allowed speak about or discuss it. It seems like the Trans "side" are far more reluctant to debate the issue than women are. Women are being told either agree or shut up...... that is what's happening right now. Sport was changed without discussing it with women. Martina Navratolova was vilified for daring to raise concerns.

I just don't know that "they can just have a trans league" is really discussing the issue though? It feels dismissive to me, as admittedly an outside observer who isn't affected by either "side" of this. I'm not for a second arguing that plenty of trans activists aren't equally dismissive of women's concerns, but one doesn't excuse the other.

It seems like there should be plenty of scope for level-headed, reasonable discussion of the actual issues but no one seems willing to engage, and I doubt anyone is going to be happy until something changes.

[user104658]

Well as women hugely outnumber transwomen I think a transgender section would suit mostly everyone. Case closed.

https://i.gifer.com/3DoM.gif

Go away Brillo.

[Niamh.]

I just don't know that "they can just have a trans league" is really discussing the issue though? It feels dismissive to me, as admittedly an outside observer who isn't affected by either "side" of this. I'm not for a second arguing that plenty of trans activists aren't equally dismissive of women's concerns, but one doesn't excuse the other.

It seems like there should be plenty of scope for level-headed, reasonable discussion of the actual issues but no one seems willing to engage, and I doubt anyone is going to be happy until something changes.

How can you have a discussion without someone to discuss it with though....this is the issue.

BIB - Totally wrong, transwomen in sport are unwilling to engage unless you agree with them on it. Rachel McKinnon for example (the trans cyclist who Martina Navratoliva had the initial back and forth with) refused to debate the issue on her recent radio appearance so the radio station canceled the opposing debater :shrug:

[Marsh.]

I'm sure if you think about that though Marsh you can see the problems there. People who transition do so to transition to the opposite gender... not to "become a trans". It's not supposed to be a third gender... that's sort of the point. I mean surely you realise that comparing it to a disability is (to use one of my most hated words) problematic?

I dunno. Like I said I can't figure out a working solution to this one that doesn't involve significant "othering". i.e. "I have to sign up for the Trans events because I'm not a man / woman, I am just a Trans".

And then, do you have a M2F category and a F2M category? Or do you just lump 'em all together and hope that it all hormonally and physically evens out?

Erm... I didn't compare them to a disability. I simply used an example of a section of our society who would otherwise be excluded from elite sports being able to still compete without an unfair advantage/disadvantage.

Don't put words in my mouth by making out I called transpeople disabled. You're better than that. :unsure:

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a third gender. But this isn't about gender, it's about sex and their physical makeup.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

[Niamh.]

Erm... I didn't compare them to a disability. I simply used an example of a section of our society who would otherwise be excluded from elite sports being able to still compete without an unfair advantage/disadvantage.

Don't put words in my mouth. :unsure:

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a third gender. But this isn't about gender, it's about sex and their physical makeup.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

Exactly.

[Tom4784]

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

Unless there's enough trans athletes to justify their own events then there's little to be done until there is.

It's not fair for MtF trans people to compete with cis women, you can't edge out female athletes out of their sport and career for not being born a male.

[Marsh.]

https://i.gifer.com/3DoM.gif

Go away Brillo.

:joker:

[Northern Monkey]

Well i mean other than it being ridiculously unfair the main concern i think should be safety.Safety should trump hurty feelz.
Womens safety is put at risk in team sports and combat sports(i can’t even believe mtf were allowed to get in the ring with biological females ever).

It can’t just carry on until a woman is seriously injured or killed.

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories.I can’t possibly think of a better solution.

[Livia]

Well i mean other than it being ridiculously unfair the main concern i think should be safety.Safety should trump hurty feelz.
Womens safety is put at risk in team sports and combat sports(i can’t even believe mtf were allowed to get in the ring with biological females ever).

It can’t just carry on until a woman is seriously injured or killed.

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories.I can’t possibly think of a better solution.

Monkey's arrived with all the sense. x

[user104658]

BIB - Totally wrong, transwomen in sport are unwilling to engage unless you agree with them on it. Rachel McKinnon for example (the trans cyclist who Martina Navratoliva had the initial back and forth with) refused to debate the issue on her recent radio appearance so the radio station canceled the opposing debater :shrug:

OK well when I say "no one" seems willing, I should clarify that I mean it seems (to me) that very few people on either "side" seem willing, not that literally no one has tried.


It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

Hmmmm OK but being honest, I still can't get my head around this being anything other than "Male / Female / Miscellaneous" categorisation and when it comes to gender issues that seems like the very crux of "othering". I'm not trans though so I can't claim to know, I'm only trying my best to empathise with both sides, in stating that no... MtF transexuals probably shouldn't be allowed to compete with women but I uderstand why that sucks for them and serves as a constant reminder that they are "other".


It's not fair for MtF trans people to compete with cis women, you can't edge out female athletes out of their sport and career for not being born a male.

I mean I don't know how many times I can realistically repeat that I agree with this, I'm starting to worry that I'm in a fugue state and haven't literally said it 10+ times.

[user104658]

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories. I can’t possibly think of a better solution.

"I think we should set up a multi-year focus group to look into this issue and think about the best way forward and possible inclusive solutions."

"Oh wait, there's no point because someone on TiBB couldn't think of a better solution in the time it took to read the SD thread about it."


Come on Monkey. You can't possibly be suggesting that because you can't ponder out another solution in 5 minutes, there definitely isn't one.

[Northern Monkey]

"I think we should set up a multi-year focus group to look into this issue and think about the best way forward and possible inclusive solutions."

"Oh wait, there's no point because someone on TiBB couldn't think of a better solution in the time it took to read the SD thread about it."


Come on Monkey. You can't possibly be suggesting that because you can't ponder out another solution in 5 minutes, there definitely isn't one.

True i’m no expert on this topic(or any).All i have is my opinion and that is it.

The focus group is a good idea and most likely similar to what will happen.
Hopefully with many knowledgeable experts.

I still don’t think they will come up with a better solution.
I mean what is there other than handicapping(which will still have the effect of ‘othering’) or future medical advances.
It may be a case of separate categories in the short term until some kind of technology is invented.
In combat sports with regard handicapping what could possibly be done now to even the playing field of a person who has gone through male puberty punching a biological woman repeatedly in the head?Maybe tie one arm behind their back?

[Marsh.]

OK well when I say "no one" seems willing, I should clarify that I mean it seems (to me) that very few people on either "side" seem willing, not that literally no one has tried.



Hmmmm OK but being honest, I still can't get my head around this being anything other than "Male / Female / Miscellaneous" categorisation and when it comes to gender issues that seems like the very crux of "othering". I'm not trans though so I can't claim to know, I'm only trying my best to empathise with both sides, in stating that no... MtF transexuals probably shouldn't be allowed to compete with women but I uderstand why that sucks for them and serves as a constant reminder that they are "other".



I mean I don't know how many times I can realistically repeat that I agree with this, I'm starting to worry that I'm in a fugue state and haven't literally said it 10+ times.

It does suck for them unfortunately. Hopefully not forever.

But a difference must be made between someone being discriminated against and being excluded from sport because of it. And the very nature of their transition creating an unfair advantage or disadvantage.

I mean, apparently they even have events for people who have had transplants. That's not discrimination either.

The fact is competitive sports is all about the physical similarities and differences and giving everyone the equal playing field to compete. To act like this is the sports clubs just refusing to include transpeople is ridiculous. People are split into all manner of categories and events to make the competition fair. Transpeople shouldn't be exempt.

They ARE and do become their preferred gender, but physically they ARE and always will be different to those who were born that gender. It's just a fact. One India Willoughby points out herself.

[user104658]

True i’m no expert on this topic(or any).All i have is my opinion and that is it.

The focus group is a good idea and most likely similar to what will happen.
Hopefully with many knowledgeable experts.

I still don’t think they will come up with a better solution.
I mean what is there other than handicapping(which will still have the effect of ‘othering’) or future medical advances.
It may be a case of separate categories in the short term until some kind of technology is invented.
In combat sports with regard handicapping what could possibly be done now to even the playing field of a person who has gone through male puberty punching a biological woman repeatedly in the head?Maybe tie one arm behind their back?

Allow drugs and bionic enhancements for all, completely negate the physical advantage of being male because everyone has synthetic muscle mass or hydraulic limbs anyway. Completely unethical but wildly entertaining?

[Niamh.]

Allow drugs and bionic enhancements for all, completely negate the physical advantage of being male because everyone has synthetic muscle mass or hydraulic limbs anyway. Completely unethical but wildly entertaining?

Seems like 90% of athletes do that nowadays anyway, atleast it would make it fair for those poor ones who don't :laugh:

Speaking of which I rewatched Dodgeball the other day, Lance Armstrongs camio and preachy script is so funny to watch now the truth has come out about him :hehe:

[Alf]

Let me be your fantasy! (woman)

Can't wait for the boxing.

[Cherie]

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

That is not what I am saying at all and you know it :nono: I am not talking about gender, I am talking about categories in sport as you well know, of which there are many already, so this would be just creating another CATEGORY, not another gender entirely

[Vicky.]

Sport is segregated by sex for good reason. People should compete with those of their own sex really. And no, this does not mean transmen will have to compete with female people because basically, if they are on testosterone they are doping. If they are not doping, then there is no issue with them competing with females...but honestly they can compete with men if they want as the advantage is not there the other way.

I actually think a fairly decent solution is to have female sport, and 'other'. Transwomen, nor transmen will have a natural advantage over men. Can't see that going down very well though.

[user104658]

Sport is segregated by sex for good reason. People should compete with those of their own sex really. And no, this does not mean transmen will have to compete with female people because basically, if they are on testosterone they are doping. If they are not doping, then there is no issue with them competing with females...but honestly they can compete with men if they want as the advantage is not there the other way.

I actually think a fairly decent solution is to have female sport, and 'other'. Transwomen, nor transmen will have a natural advantage over men. Can't see that going down very well though.

Well one thing I thought was that the categories could just be... like... "Everyone", and then separate leagues for JUST biological women, but does that not seem a bit... patronising?

By which I mean, literally anyone could try compete in the "main" league (including any female who wants to), and then a separate league for those who don't feel able to compete in the main league. :umm2: I don't know how to make this sound good TBF.

[Vicky.]

Well one thing I thought was that the categories could just be... like... "Everyone", and then separate leagues for JUST biological women, but does that not seem a bit... patronising?

By which I mean, literally anyone could try compete in the "main" league (including any female who wants to), and then a separate league for those who don't feel able to compete in the main league. :umm2: I don't know how to make this sound good TBF.

Its awkward to talk about for sure, but I think my 'solution' is pretty much the same as yours :laugh:

The only thing I am sure of in this is that its pretty undeniable males have an advantage over females, and allowing males into female sport basically destroys female sport...so some solution needs to be brought up fast!

A female league for females who want to compete on an even level...but females could also enter the 'other' if they chose...I can't see any woman ever winning in that section though because, biology. But the choice is there, and it does not disadvantage blokes. Win win, surely?

[user104658]

A female league for females who want to compete on an even level...but females could also enter the 'other' if they chose...I can't see any woman ever winning in that section though because, biology. But the choice is there, and it does not disadvantage blokes. Win win, surely?

Depends on the sport, surely... e.g. I've never really understood why there are male and female events for things like precision shooting at the olympics :think:. Same with darts, snooker, I think even chess championships are divided by gender? Can't really figure out why when it comes to those.

[Vicky.]

Depends on the sport, surely... e.g. I've never really understood why there are male and female events for things like precision shooting at the olympics :think:. Same with darts, snooker, I think even chess championships are divided by gender? Can't really figure out why when it comes to those.

Some stuff doesn't need to be segregated. I *think* also extreme long distance running is about the only physical thing women would beat men at physically. Not sure on that though, just something in my head for some reason and have not checked.

Never really understood why darts and shooting and stuff is sex segregated. But anything thats basically pure power/strength, the blokes tend to have it :laugh: Yet saying this is controversial apparently.

[Alf]

Depends on the sport, surely... e.g. I've never really understood why there are male and female events for things like precision shooting at the olympics :think:. Same with darts, snooker, I think even chess championships are divided by gender? Can't really figure out why when it comes to those.Women do play darts with men, they were in the PDC World championships in December for the first time.

The best female player in the world, Lisa Ashton was knocked out by average male player Jan Decker in the first round, the other female in it, Dobromislova, also knocked out in the first round by an average male player.

[user104658]

Women do play darts with men, they were in the PDC World championships in December for the first time.



The best female player in the world, Lisa Ashton was knocked out by average male player Jan Decker in the first round, the other female in it, Dobromislova, also knocked out in the first round by an average male player.To be fair I've heard the same of Chess when there are mixed competitions, and the same tends to apply to e-sports though the reason for that is more obvious as the male:female ratio is still huge (though decreasing). It may just be because of history though, and we'll see more females rising to the top over time.

[Marsh.]

Well one thing I thought was that the categories could just be... like... "Everyone", and then separate leagues for JUST biological women, but does that not seem a bit... patronising?

By which I mean, literally anyone could try compete in the "main" league (including any female who wants to), and then a separate league for those who don't feel able to compete in the main league. :umm2: I don't know how to make this sound good TBF.

Erm... yeah, the ten tonne bodybuilder versus the skinny woman with a missing leg. The "everyone" category really works. :)

[user104658]

Erm... yeah, the ten tonne bodybuilder versus the skinny woman with a missing leg. The "everyone" category really works. :)Well why not

[Alf]

Russia would do anything to win medals, this is right up their street.

[Cherie]

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with a male and female trans category :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with a male and female trans category :shrug:

Because athletics is boring enough

[chuff me dizzy]

Of course they have a massive advantage !they are men when you peel away with surgery

[Ant.]

Why not get a trans-athlete?

Or at least someone other than the twat that is India Willoughby speaking on behalf of transpeople in every god damn TV segment.

Caitlyn Jenner is an ex-athlete who is trans so let's not go there :bawling:

/misses the point

[Vicky.]

Of course they have a massive advantage !they are men when you peel away with surgery

No surgery is required. Just lowering testosterone for a year. And McKinnon (who set this argument off) reckons even thats unfair and transwomen should not even have to lower that..because, testosterone does not give an advantage :D Seriously. McKinnon is ****ing nuts. Watching them explode all over twitter calling near everyone a transphobe is hilarious really. About time the issue was properly dragged into the sunlight though, I do wonder how many male bodied women will be in the next Olympics..'technically' its been allowed since 2004 but surgery was a requirement then..thats been removed recently. Only seems to be a few males taking advantage though, but that will change fairly quickly, esp with the likes of Russia.

[Ant.]

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with a male and female trans category :shrug:

I imagine it's because it can be seen as excluding trans people possibly? Even if there is a reason and yes, they are trans men/trans women, I imagine the question of "we're women why are we being separated from cis women?"

---

Personally I'd want the option that offends less people, but at the same time, if we have the Olympics and Paralympics, I find it hard to argue that there shouldn't be trans categories

And if there weren't trans categories, trans athletes would still be hounded with questions and people saying "they had an advantage!!", so I don't think there's a side that wins

[Cherie]

I imagine it's because it can be seen as excluding trans people possibly? Even if there is a reason and yes, they are trans men/trans women, I imagine the question of "we're women why are we being separated from cis women?"

---

Personally I'd want the option that offends less people, but at the same time, if we have the Olympics and Paralympics, I find it hard to argue that there shouldn't be trans categories

And if there weren't trans categories, trans athletes would still be hounded with questions and people saying "they had an advantage!!", so I don't think there's a side that wins


No I don't get why they would be offended, its about giving them a level playing field in sport, I don't know why everything has to be a negative, , for ftm transition it would give them the opportunity to participate in physical sport which at the moment they can't actually do, for mtf it would take away the element that any win was unfair, so I don't see the issue at all

[Withano]

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.

So female-borns that transistion into men compete against women?

[Northern Monkey]

With the ridiculous amount of substances banned by the IOC(not all performance enhancing either) i’m very surprised that the use of synthetic oestrogens are allowed tbh.They are still hormones afterall.

[Vicky.]

So female-borns that transistion into men compete against women?

Depends what you mean by 'transition'. If 'transition' involves the taking of testosterone, then they should be treat the same as any other female who was taking performance enhancing drugs. If 'transition' means simply changes presentation and changes the stereotypes they follow, then of course, why not?

[Withano]

Depends what you mean by 'transition'. If 'transition' involves the taking of testosterone, then they should be treat the same as any other female who was taking performance enhancing drugs. If 'transition' means simply changes presentation and changes the stereotypes they follow, then of course, why not?

So not everybody with an X chromosome (I assume Livia will have the same answer)

I agree with the ‘third and fourth category’ personally.

[rusticgal]

The answer is "well, duh"

Biological males are (on average) stronger and faster than females, so of course transwomen have an advantage over women.

Agree.

[Livia]

So female-borns that transistion into men compete against women?

Like that's ever going to be an issue.

This is about men continuing their control over women. That's my opinion.