Male genital mutilation.

[Beso]

Programme on about it at half ten bbc 1 tonight...


Ban it I say..

[Kizzy]

Circumcision? Urg horrible!

[Beso]

Circumcision? Urg horrible!

Poor kids, don't even have a choice.

[Beso]

Interesting.

It's in the original scriptures of the jewish religion that a child should be circumcised 8 days after birth..so I can see why that would be followed for generations to come.


But I didn't know it was practiced in other religions and is never mentioned in thier scriptures.

[Livia]

Everyone thinks of Jews when circumcision is mentioned but the majority of males in the USA are circumcised not for religious reasons. Also, Islam is the biggest enforcer of religious male circumcision even though it's not even mentioned in the Quran. Neither is female genital mutilation, and frankly I am far more concerned about the 200 million women in the world who, when they were little girls, have been held down, had their clitoris sliced off by someone who isn't a medical professional, it's usually a relative, using an unsterilized blade, sometimes a sharpened tin lid, then sewn up so they can only piss and bleed.

[Vicky.]

I disagree with this in all situations except for for medical reasons. Cutting pieces off babies because you think your God wants you too or whatever is just gross IMO.

[Livia]

I think having babies' ears pieced is grotesque.... people still do it.

[Niamh.]

I disagree with this in all situations except for for medical reasons. Cutting pieces off babies because you think your God wants you too or whatever is just gross IMO.

Agree although tbf Livia is right in that in the USA pretty much all baby boys have it done for "hygiene" reasons and aesthetics rather than religion. I've heard Americans say that being uncut is gross and dirty................no comprehending the concept of men just...........washing themselves though

[Livia]

Agree although tbf Livia is right in that in the USA pretty much all baby boys have it done for "hygiene" reasons and aesthetics rather than religion. I've heard Americans say that being uncut is gross and dirty................no comprehending the concept of men just...........washing themselves though

Niamh! Lovely to see you back, hope you had the best time x

[Vicky.]

I think having babies' ears pieced is grotesque.... people still do it.

I don't agree with that either. Why put holes in their ears?! I mean, if they ask for it later in life fine..but just doing it..nah.

[Vicky.]

Agree although tbf Livia is right in that in the USA pretty much all baby boys have it done for "hygiene" reasons and aesthetics rather than religion. I've heard Americans say that being uncut is gross and dirty................no comprehending the concept of men just...........washing themselves though

:laugh: God forbid even a tiny bit of effort is put into anything, just cut bits off their dick instead!

[Livia]

:laugh: God forbid even a tiny bit of effort is put into anything, just cut bits off their dick instead!

LOL....

[Niamh.]

I think having babies' ears pieced is grotesque.... people still do it.

Yeah, that should be banned, horrible

[Niamh.]

Niamh! Lovely to see you back, hope you had the best time x

Twas very good thank you :love: How are you?

[Livia]

Twas very good thank you :love: How are you?

Disgustingly healthy thank you! Glad you had a good time, good to have you back x

[Niamh.]

Disgustingly healthy thank you! Glad you had a good time, good to have you back x

I have so much work to catch up on though, I shouldn't really be on here :hehe:

[Twosugars]

Why dont cut off their ears while they're at it? They get dirty too

Ridiculous superstition, should be banned

[Beso]

One jewish mother refused to have her son snipped at 8 days...he is now grown up...but could he sue his mum for depriving him of being pure jewish (not sure what term to use)

[Vicky.]

One jewish mother refused to have her son snipped at 8 days...he is now grown up...but could he sue his mum for depriving him of being pure jewish (not sure what term to use)

I wouldn't think you could sue your parents for refusing to cut off pieces of your body. I would hope not anyway, mind some of the things that end up in court these days..you never know D:

He could always chose to get it done as an adult. That seems to be rare for some reason..hmm

[Tom4784]

I always found the idea of comparing circumcision to FGM to be grotesque. FGM can cause a woman problems for the rest of her life but circumcision does not, hell, circumcision makes things easier in terms of cleanliness and such. There's no real long term downsides to circumcision.

While the philosophical question is valid, I dislike calling it 'Male Genital mutilation' since it promotes false equivalency to FGM. Circumcision can not ruin a man's life like FGM can for a woman.

[Withano]

Why dont cut off their ears while they're at it? They get dirty too

Ridiculous superstition, should be banned

Shouldn’t be banned tbf. I know of 2 people who had theirs cut off cos it was “too tight when they were younger” (I didn’t ask follow-up questions lol)

[Marsh.]

Why take the wrapping paper off the gift before it's been given to the receiver to open?

[Marsh.]

Shouldn’t be banned tbf. I know of 2 people who had theirs cut off cos it was “too tight when they were younger” (I didn’t ask follow-up questions lol)

Yeah, for actual reasons fair enough, just for the sake of it and it should be banned.

[Vicky.]

I always found the idea of comparing circumcision to FGM to be grotesque. FGM can cause a woman problems for the rest of her life but circumcision does not, hell, circumcision makes things easier in terms of cleanliness and such. There's no real long term downsides to circumcision.

While the philosophical question is valid, I dislike calling it 'Male Genital mutilation' since it promotes false equivalency to FGM. Circumcision can not ruin a man's life like FGM can for a woman.

I agree with this, and livias post upthread too. But did not want to 'what about' in a thread about male circumscision, given I complain about whatabouts everywhere else :hehe:

Yeah, 'MGM' is nothing like FGM. FGM is utterly utterly barbaric and cannot really be compared to circumscision. Mind, I do not think that parm was doing that. But I guess even terming it MGM is..comparing it in a way. As you said.

I do disagree to no downsides of circumscision though tbh. There might not be physical downsides, but I have read hundreds of accounts of blokes really pissed off and upset about their parents removing part of them without consent. So there are mental downsides it seems.

[Crimson Dynamo]

No need to do it

Don't do it

[Withano]

Yeah, for actual reasons fair enough, just for the sake of it and it should be banned.

Yeah I could agree with that, never really gave it much thought before today. Does seem needless.

[Niamh.]

I agree with this, and livias post upthread too. But did not want to 'what about' in a thread about male circumscision, given I complain about whatabouts everywhere else :hehe:

Yeah, 'MGM' is nothing like FGM. FGM is utterly utterly barbaric and cannot really be compared to circumscision. Mind, I do not think that parm was doing that. But I guess even terming it MGM is..comparing it in a way. As you said.

I do disagree to no downsides of circumscision though tbh. There might not be physical downsides, but I have read hundreds of accounts of blokes really pissed off and upset about their parents removing part of them without consent. So there are mental downsides it seems.

Apparently it reduces sensitivity aswell so in theory sex may be affected a bit afterwards, although a man who has always been circumcised since becoming sexually active wouldn't be able to compare it to sex without circumcision

[Vicky.]

Apparently is reduces sensitivity aswell so in theory sex may be affected a bit afterwards, although a man who has always been circumcised since becoming sexually active wouldn't be able to compare it to sex without circumcision

Yup, have read that a fair bit and it makes sense.

[Tom4784]

I agree with this, and livias post upthread too. But did not want to 'what about' in a thread about male circumscision, given I complain about whatabouts everywhere else :hehe:

Yeah, 'MGM' is nothing like FGM. FGM is utterly utterly barbaric and cannot really be compared to circumscision. Mind, I do not think that parm was doing that. But I guess even terming it MGM is..comparing it in a way. As you said.

I do disagree to no downsides of circumscision though tbh. There might not be physical downsides, but I have read hundreds of accounts of blokes really pissed off and upset about their parents removing part of them without consent. So there are mental downsides it seems.

I don't think it's really whataboutism, it's just commenting on false equivalency.

As for your last paragraph, I think that comes under the philosophy side of it, is it right for a parent to make that decision for their child? For me personally my personal take is 'meh'. It's a flap of skin that you have to pull back to wash yourself properly or it'll get infected. It's a bother more than anything. I think a lot of men who are circumcised would prefer to remain that way if they could experience the other side of it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

also the whole cleaner thing is just a common myth

[Vicky.]

I don't think it's really whataboutism, it's just commenting on false equivalency.

As for your last paragraph, I think that comes under the philosophy side of it, is it right for a parent to make that decision for their child? For me personally my personal take is 'meh'. It's a flap of skin that you have to pull back to wash yourself properly or it'll get infected. It's a bother more than anything. I think a lot of men who are circumcised would prefer to remain that way if they could experience the other side of it.

Maybe, but I do think it should be a choice the bloke makes, not something the parents decide when they are babies. Its quite telling I think, that there seems to be a lack of adult men wanting to be circumscised..unless for actual medical problems. None just 'because'

[Tom4784]

Maybe, but I do think it should be a choice the bloke makes, not something the parents decide when they are babies. Its quite telling I think, that there seems to be a lack of adult men wanting to be circumscised..unless for actual medical problems. None just 'because'

Probably because we'd remember the recovery as an adult :laugh: I imagine it would be a worse procedure as an adult too, babies could probably recover from it quite quickly while a man might be out of commission for a few days or would be slower to move around.

I'm ultimately fine with it being the parents' choice given that circumcision doesn't really have any big health drawbacks, only positives.

[Vicky.]

Probably because we'd remember the recovery as an adult :laugh: I imagine it would be a worse procedure as an adult too, babies could probably recover from it quite quickly while a man might be out of commission for a few days or would be slower to move around.

I'm ultimately fine with it being the parents' choice given that circumcision doesn't really have any big health drawbacks, only positives.

I think babies would be in as much pain and such as adults, maybe even moreso. But because they are babies, they simply won't remember it, but it will have been there. And it makes me feel a bit iffy to say that because babies don't remember painful procedures, its fine. I know thats not what you said, but thats what comes to mind when trying to think that its all ok..

[Kizzy]

Whether its for religious or cosmetic reasons essentially you are mutilating an infant. The fact it has no long term effects ( or has it? Who knows :/) is irrelevant.

[Beso]

I wouldn't think you could sue your parents for refusing to cut off pieces of your body. I would hope not anyway, mind some of the things that end up in court these days..you never know D:

He could always chose to get it done as an adult. That seems to be rare for some reason..hmm

The whole.point is they have to have it done within 8 days of birth to be proper Jews. ..That's sounds daft but I don't know the correct terminology

[Twosugars]

A perfect job for a paedo sadist I'd imagine, mutilating infants

[Beso]

A perfect job for a paedo sadist I'd imagine, mutilating infants

Or a qualified Dr to the less dramatic.

[Niamh.]

The whole.point is they have to have it done within 8 days of birth to be proper Jews. ..That's sounds daft but I don't know the correct terminology

Where did that even come from I wonder, cutting off a piece of a baby's genitals to be more religious? What is the reasoning behind it, does anyone know?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Where did that even come from I wonder, cutting off a piece of a baby's genitals to be more religious? What is the reasoning behind it, does anyone know?

it was a tribal thing to show that you were part of the jewish tribe and not someone who would enter a city and kill people - i think that was the initial reason

ie not something that could be faked

[smudgie]

My brother had itdone as a young child, not a great experience.
A friends son had it done when he was three, again painful and upsetting.
Both had struggled for a time before, both were excellent after a couple of weeks.
Much better to have it done as a baby I believe, less painful, less to remove, less stress.
Not sure how many boys struggle with infections or tightness :shrug:

[thesheriff443]

It’s a funny old world, in which people are happy for perverts to be castrated but not for a piece of skin to be cut off.

Unless it affects you in person it’s just another white noise subject in life.

[Vicky.]

it was a tribal thing to show that you were part of the jewish tribe and not someone who would enter a city and kill people - i think that was the initial reason

ie not something that could be faked

Erm, is this actually right?! So basically, aswell as cutting parts off your childs penis, you have to show the penis to random people to get access to a city?

I have seen/rad some disgusting accounts of circumscision as a child. Apparently sometimes, the person performing it actually sucks the blood out when done. I mean..come on :umm2:

[Vicky.]

My brother had itdone as a young child, not a great experience.
A friends son had it done when he was three, again painful and upsetting.
Both had struggled for a time before, both were excellent after a couple of weeks.
Much better to have it done as a baby I believe, less painful, less to remove, less stress.
Not sure how many boys struggle with infections or tightness :shrug:
I think its obviously fine if its for medical reasons, seems a fair few boys have theirs too tight, and of course anything to relieve the pain is good. Its when there is no actual reason..that gets me tbh

[thesheriff443]

How many people happily get piecings that are pointless and mutillate there bodies.

[Vicky.]

How many people happily get piecings that are pointless and mutillate there bodies.

But thats a choice. Its different chosing to mutilate your own body..rather than someone else make the decision and do it for you.

[thesheriff443]

But thats a choice. Its different chosing to mutilate your own body..rather than someone else make the decision and do it for you.

True but it’s another form of mutilation that’s not only acceptable but is chosen.

[Vicky.]

True but it’s another form of mutilation that’s not only acceptable but is chosen.

Well yeah, technically tattos and pericings and stuff atre mutiliation. But I do think people should be able to do what they like with their bodies (within reason) when its a free choice.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It’s a funny old world, in which people are happy for perverts to be castrated but not for a piece of skin to be cut off.

Unless it affects you in person it’s just another white noise subject in life.

if we aim to progress as a species stopping children being disfigured for superstition is good thing

[armand.kay]

can't say I have a strong opinion on what people should do with their baby's dick. I'm just glad I got circumcised and I'm also glad I've never come across an uncircumcised peen in my sex life.

[thesheriff443]

if we aim to progress as a species stopping children being disfigured for superstition is good thing

It’s been going on for thousands of years and will continue.

The human race is primitive we should be ruled by a computer that only understand stands logic and right from wron without any other factors being considered like religion.

[Livia]

Just for clarity, God told Abraham to cut his foreskin, and his sons' and his servants' as an everlasting covenant in their flesh.

[Twosugars]

It’s been going on for thousands of years and will continue.

The human race is primitive we should be ruled by a computer that only understand stands logic and right from wron without any other factors being considered like religion.

It may well happen

[Crimson Dynamo]

Just for clarity, God told Abraham to cut his foreskin, and his sons' and his servants' as an everlasting covenant in their flesh.

No he did not, a man wrote that so that one tribe could be identified with no error to protect them from intruders. superstition was used to coerce people into mutual agreement.religion was the method that primitive man used to get large groups of people to do things - prior to religion this was impossible.

[Livia]

No he did not, a man wrote that so that one tribe could be identified with no error to protect them from intruders. superstition was used to coerce people into mutual agreement.religion was the method that primitive man used to get large groups of people to do things - prior to religion this was impossible.

If that's what you believe, then fine. I don't suppose you have any more actual evidence than I have. So it comes down to faith.

[Marsh.]

prior to religion this was impossible.

False.

[Twosugars]

It's funny how god used to communicate all the time until he stopped :think:
You'd think there'd be so much more pointless instructions to pass ( you shall not use Microsoft products only Apple) but no, silence....

[Twosugars]

Just for clarity, God told Abraham to cut his foreskin, and his sons' and his servants' as an everlasting covenant in their flesh.

King of moderation
Could have asked for an eye or a leg

[joeysteele]

There are a number of reasons why it may be done.
Obviously any medical reason is important.

However, it does have a faith element.
It's not for me not being of the Muslim or Jewish faith to condemn the rite.

It is a vital part of those religions and while it may seem bizarre to those of no faith.
To those religions it's very important.

So I'd rather respect those religions rites myself.
They believe it's part of a covenant.
A matter of deep faith.

[Marsh.]

It's funny how god used to communicate all the time until he stopped :think:
You'd think there'd be so much more pointless instructions to pass ( you shall not use Microsoft products only Apple) but no, silence....

There's been countless "prophets" down the centuries. It's just down to which religion believes them or not.

[Crimson Dynamo]

There's been countless "prophets" down the centuries. It's just down to which religion believes them or not.

Prophets are not the same as direct word of.... God

[Marsh.]

Prophets are not the same as direct word of.... God

The direct "words of God" came via prophets.

[Twosugars]

There's been countless "prophets" down the centuries. It's just down to which religion believes them or not.

True but nothing lately, not for the major religions
Catholicism which I know most about, tends to have some visions of Mary in the last century, but she doesn't say anything fundamental
But haven't heard of recent accepted prophets who say, look, god says we do this or that and the whole major religion buys it
As if people of god became sceptical when it comes to these things. They buy the ancient stuff but nothing new is added

[Marsh.]

True but nothing lately

Phil down the road has a conversation with God every Friday. Nobody pays attention these days. :nono:

[Beso]

I agree with this, and livias post upthread too. But did not want to 'what about' in a thread about male circumscision, given I complain about whatabouts everywhere else :hehe:

Yeah, 'MGM' is nothing like FGM. FGM is utterly utterly barbaric and cannot really be compared to circumscision. Mind, I do not think that parm was doing that. But I guess even terming it MGM is..comparing it in a way. As you said.

I do disagree to no downsides of circumscision though tbh. There might not be physical downsides, but I have read hundreds of accounts of blokes really pissed off and upset about their parents removing part of them without consent. So there are mental downsides it seems.




All I can say to this is "I hope uou and dezzy watched the programme."

[Beso]

Well yeah, technically tattos and pericings and stuff atre mutiliation. But I do think people should be able to do what they like with their bodies (within reason) when its a free choice.

I bet that young jew lad wanted to be a jew 8 days in, now that he's grown up.

But no...he was denied the opportunity to what he wanted with his body.

[Livia]

How many Jewish or Muslim men are complaining about this? I'm pretty sure it should be up to the parents, or where are you going to stop?

[Kizzy]

Well in fairness should anyone do anything like this to a member of the public how would it be viewed?...It would be quite rightly against the law.

[Livia]

If my Baby is born a boy, I hope you all have the number for my local Children's Services, it's in County Hall Norwich, PM me for more details just so you're equipped with all the info. And it's not like there are any other children in the country suffering abuse, sexual, physical, at the hands of those who are supposed to nurture and protect them; kids plonked in front of a telly all day, yet more kids born into already poverty-stricken families... We'll let that slide though because well... religion... it's like, stupid, innit. Let's obsess about children born to loving parents who have faith. They're the real b*stards.

[Oliver_W]

"Mutilation" is a strong word, especially as they're better after ;)

Using mutilation also equates it with FGM, which is disgusting and there's absolutely no justification for.

[Withano]

How many Jewish or Muslim men are complaining about this? I'm pretty sure it should be up to the parents, or where are you going to stop?

Why?

I get that it traditionally has been, but why must it continue?

[Withano]

Imagine spending 100 years of your life dedicated to religion, living without sin and spreading the word of the God that turns out to be real. You die and your soul floats up to heaven and God’s all like “ew no you have foreskin bye”

[Livia]

Why?

I get that it traditionally has been, but why must it continue?

Who's going to judge who is a good parent? You?

[Withano]

Who's going to judge who is a good parent? You?

This doesn’t even nearly answer the question I asked.

[Livia]

Imagine spending 100 years of your life dedicated to religion, living without sin and spreading the word of the God that turns out to be real. You die and your soul floats up to heaven and God’s all like “ew no you have foreskin bye”

You're hilarious.

FYI, Jews don't believe in heaven and hell. You know nothing of my faith and you're going to judge my parenting skills based on just that.

[Withano]

You're hilarious.

FYI, Jews don't believe in heaven and hell. You know nothing of my faith and you're going to judge my parenting skills based on just that.

Didnt even know you were a parent

You said you were pretty sure that foreskin should be a parental choice, and I asked why. Do you habe any single reason? I was simply curious

[Livia]

Didnt even know you were a parent

You said you were pretty sure that foreskin should be a parental choice, and I asked why. Do you habe any single reason? I was simply curious

I'm pregnant.

It's a parental choice to have your kids ears pierced. Is there any single reason for that?

[Withano]

I'm pregnant.

It's a parental choice to have your kids ears pierced. Is there any single reason for that?

Usually just vanity I’d imagine. Seems like a discussion for a different thread, and still 100% does not answer the question I asked 10 minutes ago

I’m going to ask for a third time just incase!

Is there any single reason that foreskin should be a parental choice?

[Livia]

Usually just vanity I’d imagine. Seems like a discussion for a different thread, and still 100% does not answer the question I asked 10 minutes ago

I’m going to ask for a third time just incase!

Is there any single reason that foreskin should be a parental choice?

I know there is a certain animus between us, so I'm wondering why you're asking me this. You're asking because I am Jewish and you expect me to share with you 5000 of Judaism and the ins and outs of my faith so you can
ridicule and/or rubbish it. Go ask someone else.

[Withano]

I know there is a certain animus between us, so I'm wondering why you're asking me this. You're asking because I am Jewish and you expect me to share with you 5000 of Judaism and the ins and outs of my faith so you can
ridicule and/or rubbish it. Go ask someone else.

I’m asking because you said you were pretty sure that foreskin was a parental choice and I found this stance to be unusual so wondered if you could elaborate by giving any single reason.

You still have not gave any single reason.

Your own signature is the closest thing to anti-semetism in this thread.

[Livia]

I’m asking because you said you were pretty sure that foreskin was a parental choice and I found this stance to be unusual so wondered if you could elaborate by giving any single reason.

You still have not gave any single reason.

I know what you asked me and I know why. And no, I don't choose to elaborate for you so you can spend the rest of the morning back and forth telling me I'm wrong.

So post again, have the last word, then move on.

[Livia]

I’m asking because you said you were pretty sure that foreskin was a parental choice and I found this stance to be unusual so wondered if you could elaborate by giving any single reason.

You still have not gave any single reason.

Your own signature is the closest thing to anti-semetism in this thread.

Ohhh Missed your spiteful little edit.
"I don't reply to people on my ignore list" is anti Semitic? **** off.

[Withano]

Ohhh Missed your spiteful little edit.
"I don't reply to people on my ignore list" is anti Semitic? **** off.

Of course not lol

“For the many, not the jew” is probably seen as anti Semitic by hundreds of guests that don’t know you personally though.

[Withano]

I know what you asked me and I know why. And no, I don't choose to elaborate for you so you can spend the rest of the morning back and forth telling me I'm wrong.

So post again, have the last word, then move on.

Maybe don’t post things that you’re unwilling to elaborate on in the future.

[Livia]

Of course not lol

“For the many, not the jew” is probably seen as anti Semitic by hundreds of guests that don’t know you personally though.

You underestimate people... If people see a protest against anti-Semitism and think it's anti-Semitic, and don't make the Labour connection... they probably shouldn't be online.

So sorry, I am not anti-Semitic LOL....

I'm finished with this tedious baiting.

[Livia]

Maybe don’t post things that you’re unwilling to elaborate on in the future.

I'm not unwilling to elaborate. I'm unwilling to elaborate to you.

Go and ask someone else, someone you d
on't obviously despise. It doesn't have to be a Jew, could be a Muslim.

Bye then.

[Withano]

I'm not unwilling to elaborate. I'm unwilling to elaborate to you.

Go and ask someone else, someone you d
on't obviously despise. It doesn't have to be a Jew, could be a Muslim.

Bye then.

Nobody else in my entire lifetime has told me they believe foreskin to be a parental choice. I doubt anybody else in my lifetime will say this to me either.

Lets be honest with ourselves. You won’t elaborate on it because you can’t.

[Kazanne]

If my Baby is born a boy, I hope you all have the number for my local Children's Services, it's in County Hall Norwich, PM me for more details just so you're equipped with all the info. And it's not like there are any other children in the country suffering abuse, sexual, physical, at the hands of those who are supposed to nurture and protect them; kids plonked in front of a telly all day, yet more kids born into already poverty-stricken families... We'll let that slide though because well... religion... it's like, stupid, innit. Let's obsess about children born to loving parents who have faith. They're the real b*stards.

:clap1::clap1:

[Toy Soldier]

Hmmmm this is a tough one for me to answer I think because I was circumcised at 5 for medical reasons, and also my penis is obviously spectacular and grand so I do have a bias, but I'm going to do my best :joker:.

- GENERAL first thoughts; I firmly believe in bodily autonomy so I think in an ideal world, it should always be the choice of the individual unless it's for medical reasons. And yes I would say exactly the same about any body alteration... I flat out think getting children piercings should be illegal. You can't go and get your baby a tattoo so why are you be able to get holes put in them? It just doesn't seem right. So yeah I put it in the same category; like tattoos and piercings, there is nothing WRONG with circumcision, but it is a body modification and I think individual autonomy needs to come into the equation here.

- I think referring to it as genital mutilation presents some huge problems. Female genital mutilation is utterly horrific. It's barbaric. Even suggesting that circumcision is in the same ballpark DOWNPLAYS the seriousness of FGM and we need to be really careful about sending the opposite message to the one that is intended; ie people getting the idea that FGM is "just the same as men being circumcised so can't be that bad". Even just calling it "worse" is a gross understatement. Its a completely different thing.

- regardless of all of the above, in medical terms, I personally don't think it should be done on babies. It's safer and has better results after the foreskin naturally separates from the glans, which happens at around 2/3.

[Kizzy]

Ok let's not say mutilation, let's go with your word TS modification. .. why would anyone want to modify a perfect baby? Why would god want that?
It causes pain, discomfort and there's a risk of infection as there is with any wound. I just can't justify it... blind faith is not enough sorry.
I can accept chatting nonsense into the ether, transubstantiation... but this? Nah.

[Livia]

So non-believers would like to dictate to people of faith. Good luck.

[Kizzy]

I'm a believer too, in God not religion.
Aren't we alk supposed to be created in his image
... Is Gods image wrong?

[Toy Soldier]

I'm a believer too, in God not religion.
Aren't we alk supposed to be created in his image
... Is Gods image wrong?Even if you don't believe the "in his image" part, it's hard to comprehend how people believe that God intended for people to be born with a foreskin only for it to be immediately removed. Like... For what possible reason? :think:

[Kizzy]

I don't know... That's special esoteric knowledge specifically for those who not only believe in God but have 'faith' :shrug:

[Twosugars]

One of my gripes about major religions is how pernickety their god seems to be. All those detailed and sometimes ridiculous rules about unimportant things.
Surely ten commandments is plenty for a broadly ethical and godly life, the rest is just silly.

[Marsh.]

One of my gripes about major religions is how pernickety their god seems to be. All those detailed and sometimes ridiculous rules about unimportant things.
Surely ten commandments is plenty for a broadly ethical and godly life, the rest is just silly.

Tbf that's usually how they're treated, the commandments being the "laws" that must be followed and everything else just being guidance and teaching.

[Twosugars]

Tbf that's usually how they're treated, the commandments being the "laws" that must be followed and everything else just being guidance and teaching.

But circumcision seems ordered directly by god apparently

[Twosugars]

Foreskin reclaimers: the ‘intactivists’ fighting infant male circumcision
Emboldened by the body-positive movement and a sense of rage, a growing chorus is pushing back against a common custom
Gary Nunn

https://i.imgur.com/ufM1lLF.jpg
Circumcision remains a religious custom in the Islamic and Jewish faiths. Photograph: World History Archive/Alamy Stock Photo


The media officer of one of the UK’s top medical schools doesn’t realise she hasn’t muted herself as she puts me on hold.

She sniggers with her colleague as she passes on my request – to speak to an expert on male circumcision – before informing me they don’t have one.

This foreskin flippancy festers into revulsion in some areas of popular culture.

In one Sex and the City episode, Charlotte is so repelled by her lover’s foreskin, she likens it to a “shar-pei”, the analogy cementing Miranda’s resolve to circumcise her kids.

It’s written for entertainment value, but for Adam Zeldis, a 36-year-old software developer from New York, it’s no laughing matter.

Many men circumcised as babies “have an epiphany when the cultural blinders come off”, he tells the Guardian. “I was a vulnerable 16-year-old when I realised how much skin was removed and that my bodily autonomy was violated.”

Georganne Chapin, who runs Intact America, hears about foreskin degradation often. “Men call us saying their wives think it’s ‘disgusting and dirty’ not to circumcise their sons. It’s sad,” she says.

“Intactivists” (portmanteau of “intact” and “activist”) are raising their voices in increasing numbers about infant male circumcision – but are they being heard?

Not according to Zeldis. “I felt immense loss and grief that I’d never be given the chance to experience sex the way nature intended it. And nobody in society cared. It was terribly isolating.”

America is the western nation with the highest proportion of infant male circumcisions. Many do it for non-religious and non-therapeutic reasons. Due to different tracking measures and non-uniform reporting of newborn circumcisions, the prevalence is difficult to measure accurately. One American healthcare agency report in 2012 found that circumcisions had dropped from around 60% in 2000 to 54.5% in 2009.

Madison Zaliski, 26, gave birth to her son in Arkansas eight months ago. Despite not consenting, she was “asked multiple times a day” when he would be circumcised. “Most nurses thought it was a paperwork mistake,” she says.

The other notable western nations circumcising baby boys are Canada and Australia. The Canadian Paediatric Society uses the figure of 31.9%, based on research conducted in 2007. The Royal Australasian College of Physicians puts Australia and New Zealand’s figure at between 10% and 20%.

In the UK, the National Childbirth Trust estimates 8.5% of men are circumcised. The NHS stopped paying for it in the 1940s.

‘It creates trauma, pain and risk’
Why do it? The most common response is custom: because dad did. Zeldis says this is the “response people like my parents give when they don’t really know why”.

The non-religious history, at least in America, comes from the Victorian myth that masturbation was dangerous because the loss of semen would weaken a boy permanently, and threaten the moral order. It was thought that circumcision would somehow prevent masturbation. The 1960s sexual revolution debunked that.

Chapin’s passion to end infant male circumcision came from her younger brother: “I remember seeing his bloody penis and being taken back to have his urethra forcibly reopened – it sealed over as a result of his circumcision. The trauma kept returning.”

She lists her reasons against the practice like a scattergun: “You can’t go cutting the body parts of people without consent unless it’ll kill them. It creates trauma, pain and risk. It permanently alters a child’s body and their sexual function and pleasure later in life. And it’s a waste of medical resources – but American medicine is a money machine and if a procedure is refundable, it’ll happen.”
I hear these reasons repeatedly from opponents of circumcision.

Zeldis’s adult perception of his operation is echoed in many of their stories: “Someone strapped me down and cut off part of my genitals with a clamp and knife, forever changing my sex life, for no reason. If you touch leftover tissue, it’s highly sensitive – and that’s the majority of what’s cut off. There’s no ‘cut here’ mark, so men are all left with different versions of the procedure.”

Those protesting against circumcision have, as of this year, fallen into two closely related camps.

The first group is those keen to reframe vocabulary around “circumcision” into “male genital mutilation”. The same lexicon recurs for these men: violation, non-consent, maimed, rage, powerlessness.

The second group is reclaiming the foreskin by celebrating it. It’s led by people like Damien Williams, 45, from Sydney. He tells the Guardian: “We realised we don’t need to fight the battle against circumcision, and decided to lay down arms on that front. Let the circumcisers have that brand, and all the cutting, blood, fear, pain and hate for the human body that goes with it. Let them try to sell that to a public now embracing the positive-body movement and has a healthy scepticism for people in white coats selling them things they don’t need. We made a pact to push forward a new brand – foreskin!”

Part of the brand is foreskin restoration for men cut as babies. Williams realised the need to do it because of discomfort in his teens. “I was constantly irritated by my glans rubbing against clothing. I knew even from this age that I was supposed to have a protective covering,” he says.

Restoration techniques, which involve weighted tugging devices inserted on to the end of the penis, can be arduous. They didn’t work out for Zeldis. “It requires years of dedicated disciplined practice which I’ve been unable to give,” he says. “Those devices are uncomfortable to wear all day.”

But for Williams, it was revelatory: “After gaining enough restored foreskin, the main new experience for me in addition to the protection was the ‘rolling’ function, where the foreskin glides over the glans. I realised: ‘Oh, THIS is what a normal penis is supposed to do.’”

He channeled his anger at that function being “stolen” from him into the restoration process, which he finds psychologically healing.

Goals to ban the practice on minors risk accusations of Islamophobia or antisemitism. But the US Council of Muslim Organisations said it was “not an issue we’ve dealt with”.

Although not mentioned in the Qur’an, circumcision is mentioned in the Sunna – the practice of the Prophet Muhammad – and has been a religious custom since the beginning of Islam. It’s done for cleanliness; Muslims believe the removal of the foreskin makes it easier to keep the penis clean because urine and other matter can’t get trapped there.

Shimon Koffler Fogel, chief executive of America’s Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs, explains the biblical reason for circumcision: “From when God first commanded Abraham to circumcise himself and his household, this ritual has become a symbol of the covenant between God and the Jewish people. From an esoteric perspective, Jewish sages have explained that man was created imperfect – with the requirement of circumcision to achieve that perfection.”

Fogel says “opposition to it is more a device of anti-religion activists than genuine concern for what is a fabricated issue”.

When I put some of the language used by opponents to him, he says: “Clearly it’s not an ‘amputation’. Nor can it be considered in the same way as FGM [female genital mutilation]. Undertaken at birth, it neither constitutes a gross abuse of the infant, nor a significant healthcare risk.”

Medical miracle or genital mutilation?
Medical opinions differ. Cheryl Gowar from the UK’s National Aids Trust says: “Medical male circumcision reduces the possibility of HIV transmission from HIV-positive women to HIV-negative men by around 50%. Circumcision may also decrease sexual transmission of HIV in men who have sex with men (for the insertive partner), although studies on this are inconclusive.”

The NHS, the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and the Canadian Paediatric Department agree that studies about circumcision reducing the spread of sexually transmitted diseases are inconclusive and spurious because they were carried out in African countries such as Uganda, and the higher rates of STIs there are not comparable to western countries. None of these organisations recommends the routine circumcision of newborn males.

Paediatrician Dr Paul Bauert says the Royal Australasian College of Physicians believes the frequency of diseases modifiable by circumcision (penile cancer, HIV, STIs, UTIs) and the complication rates don’t warrant routine infant circumcision in Australia and New Zealand. And, he says, “ethical and human rights concerns have been raised regarding elective infant male circumcision because it’s recognised that the foreskin has a functional role”.

That functional role includes a dispute over how many nerve endings the foreskin has to enhance sexual function and pleasure (estimates vary between 20,000 and 100,000, making it the most sensitive part of the penis and an erogenous zone). But Chapin says: “How many nerve endings would make it OK? The body is designed that way, for that sexual function.”

In addition to potential loss of sensitivity, there are stories of painful erections. A study of 5,552 people found that circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men.

In the Netflix documentary American Circumcision, for every medical professional who makes claims about the benefits of male circumcision, there are three who will dispute the risk-to-benefit ratio.

Intactivists and foreskin reclaimers are speaking up in higher numbers, but many will not.

Zeldis has a theory as to why: “The majority of circumcised men tell themselves it was good for them. The alternative to that denial involves admitting you were harmed and sexually maimed as a child in one of your most sensitive areas.

“Many men don’t want to psychologically deal with that. It’s overwhelming.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jul/21/foreskin-reclaimers-the-intactivists-fighting-infant-male-circumcision

[Toy Soldier]

To be honest 2S I have encountered a number of "intactivists" in my internet travels and they are ... ... ... well. Some of them are... something. They're almost exclusively females / mothers and the way they talk about foreskin and "perfect, gleaming penises" at times borders on fetishization. It's a strange world probably best not gone into in too much detail :joker:. To be honest, just the fact that 90+% of intactivists are not men makes the whole thing a bit odd?

[Twosugars]

To be honest 2S I have encountered a number of "intactivists" in my internet travels and they are ... ... ... well. Some of them are... something. They're almost exclusively females / mothers and the way they talk about foreskin and "perfect, gleaming penises" at times borders on fetishization. It's a strange world probably best not gone into in too much detail :joker:. To be honest, just the fact that 90+% of intactivists are not men makes the whole thing a bit odd?
"many women like a nice-looking cock" shocker? :omgno:
and what's wrong with fetishising penises? :hmph:

but seriously, I don't care about the activists, just posted it for general information

[Kizzy]

"many women like a nice-looking cock" shocker? :omgno:
and what's wrong with fetishising penises? :hmph:

but seriously, I don't care about the activists, just posted it for general information

Thanks 2s, thats really informative , plenty of objective views there :)