PM Johnson Rejects Sturgeon's indyref2 demand

[arista]

She gets a No.

[The UK government has formally
rejected a call from Scotland's
first minister for a
second independence referendum.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson said
a referendum would "continue the
political stagnation Scotland
has seen for the past decade".
And he said First Minister Nicola Sturgeon
had previously pledged that the 2014
referendum would be a "once in a generation" vote.
Ms Sturgeon tweeted that the Tories
were attempting to "deny democracy".]

Tough Titty TS.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51106796

[Beso]

It would be silly to allow another for all sorts of reasons

[Tom4784]

Any Brexiter that demanded Brexit and made out that any attempts to oppose it is to oppose democracy YET oppose Scotland's right to choose whether they want to stay in the UK or not are complete and utter ****ing hypocrites and Boris is the king of their hypocritical kingdom.

Scotland voted overwhelmingly for the SNP which is anti-brexit and pro-Scotland's independence. The Tories dominance in the election was touted by brexiters as a sign that the public still want brexit yet they cover their eyes to the fact that Scotland is obviously telling us, in the same way, that they want an indyref.

Any brexiter that would oppose Scotland's demand for an indyref is a hypocrite and a poser who only pretends to care about democracy when it benefits them.

[Twosugars]

Well said Dezzy!

They only bleat about democracy when it suits them

[Oliver_W]

Scotland voted overwhelmingly for the SNP which is anti-brexit and pro-Scotland's independence.

55% of Scotland voted for pro-union parties.

[Beso]

God save our gracious queen.

[Livia]

The last Scottish referendum was a "once in a lifetime vote". Having another one now because Nicola wants it isn't any more democratic than having a second Brexit referendum.

[arista]

The last Scottish referendum was a "once in a lifetime vote". Having another one now because Nicola wants it isn't any more democratic than having a second Brexit referendum.


Very True
Livia.

[Tom4784]

Giving the people a choice will always be the democratic option. Trying to peddle that another vote would be undemocratic is actually senseless and an example of the Brexiter attitude of 'it's democracy if I say so but if you oppose me, you oppose democracy itself'.

Every vote that has ever been presented to the public is democratic, it doesn't stop being democratic just because it doesn't suit you.

[Ammi]

...for me ‘once in a lifetime’ and ‘democratic’ contradict each other...once in a lifetime is not conducive to democracy...democracy is representative of a majority public and that will always be open to change, depending on many factors...it doesn’t represent a ‘one day in their life public’...that would be for me, everything that democracy isn’t...’you made that choice/decision, you can’t change it...time can evolve things into a completely different scenario so that your choice is not the choice that you considered at the time...and we can make any changes to choices but you can’t...’...etc, etc...makes no sense at all in progressiveness of any society that considers itself democratic...in my humblest of opinions of course...

[Greg!]

The last Scottish referendum was a "once in a lifetime vote". Having another one now because Nicola wants it isn't any more democratic than having a second Brexit referendum.

Ok but Nicola won a mandate from the people of Scotland to hold another referendum in the recent election. A much bigger mandate than Boris got for Brexit I might add.

[Livia]

Ok but Nicola won a mandate from the people of Scotland to hold another referendum in the recent election. A much bigger mandate than Boris got for Brexit I might add.

How does that change the fact that the last referendum was a once in a lifetime vote? It didn't say it was a once in a lifetime vote, unless Nicola gets a particularly good result partially because Labour failed. And Boris has a mandate for something the people actually voted for last time.

[bots]

if Scotland truly want to be independent, they will be, Boris won't be able to stop it.

[arista]

if Scotland truly want to be independent, they will be, Boris won't be able to stop it.


He will.

[bots]

you are wrong Arista

[arista]

you are wrong Arista


You Are


They will try a Catalonia
style - which means non official

[Niamh.]

That is incorrect, it was Alex Salmond who a few days before the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, then-First Minister said that he felt the vote was a “once in a generation opportunity”. He said this in a TV interview, it was not policy or part of the ref, it was his own feeling.


This constantly gets dredged up as if this was part of the vote, it wasnt.


Before the ref equally, Nicola Sturgeon said that a significant and material change in circumstances – i.e. Britain voting to leave the EU – would justify a second ballot.

I dont see that comment being brought up by the PM, I wonder why?

:think:

Out of curiosity LT, what would you vote if you did get another referendum?

[Niamh.]

i would decide on the basis of what was on offer at the time

No leaning either way?

[Cherie]

The problem with offering another referendum is that we all know if the result didn't differ from the last one, it wouldn't take that long before yet another one would be requested and on it would go...

[Niamh.]

The problem with offering another referendum is that we all know if the result didn't differ from the last one, it wouldn't take that long before yet another one would be requested and on it would go...

True but I think there's a case to be made this time because of Brexit and because EU membership was used the last time as a reason to stay within the UK, wasn't it?

[Niamh.]

im a fair man so i would assess at the time and make my decision:hee:

Pleading the 5th? :laugh:

[Withano]

The last Scottish referendum was a "once in a lifetime vote". Having another one now because Nicola wants it isn't any more democratic than having a second Brexit referendum.

That time voting was undemocratic lol

[Tom4784]

That time voting was undemocratic lol

Votes are only considered democratic if they benefit brexiters after all. Having votes they don't agree with is the height of anti-democracy in their eyes.

[Tom4784]

If the 'once in a lifetime' line was true, there would have been no EU ref since the last time we voted on the issue before 2016, we voted ourselves back in.

[Cherie]

True but I think there's a case to be made this time because of Brexit and because EU membership was used the last time as a reason to stay within the UK, wasn't it?

Well I would agree, but then its like the UK versus the EU, did they vote only for the good bits of staying in the UK? and my point is if it is the same result again, this will come up again and again.. I am all for them going btw :hee:

[Twosugars]

The longer the cons oppose it the more popular it will get. Win-win imo

[Greg!]

How does that change the fact that the last referendum was a once in a lifetime vote? It didn't say it was a once in a lifetime vote, unless Nicola gets a particularly good result partially because Labour failed. And Boris has a mandate for something the people actually voted for last time.

Politicians say a lot of things. Alex Salmond also said before the vote in 2014 there could be a second vote if there was a mandate to hold one in a Scottish Parliament election, which happened in 2016, as well as the second mandate in the election last month. Referendums do tend to be ‘once in a generation’ but Scotland was told the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No. Well we did vote no, and were ignored. A lot has changed since 2014, surely you must see that?

[Cherie]

Sadiq has now issued a licence for a party :umm2:

[arista]

Sadiq has now issued a licence for a party :umm2:


Very Good
of the Mayor

[Cherie]

I'm in the wrong thread :umm2:

back to the bong thread with this one

[Twosugars]

Didnt know there was a party celebrating the refusal of the referendum:laugh:

So many parties..wow

[James]

I can't believe so many people are cheer leading for the UK to be broken up.

It's like Remainers are thinking 'we didn't get what we wanted with Brexit so we might as well trash the country'.

[Tom4784]

I can't believe so many people are cheer leading for the UK to be broken up.

It's like Remainers are thinking 'we didn't get what we wanted with Brexit so we might as well trash the country'.

Completely wrong.

I'm for equality, Brexiters are picking and choosing what's considered democratic based on their own preferences. It's utterly hypocritical for a brexiter to deny Scotland a referendum when I remember back in 2016, on the day of the vote when things didn't look good for Brexit, that brexiters were already lining up their excuses and accusations, plans for another vote.

The landscape has changed since the last indyref. Scotland voted to remain, and they've voted heavily in favour of the SNP whose whole stance in independence. The EU was a big part of why the last Indyref failed and I think a lot of people that voted against leaving the UK would vote for it now.

We can't force Scotland to stay with us if they don't want to and they deserve to have the choice of facing Brexit with us or going their own way.

Trying to paint that as spite on the part of remainers is just plain dishonest.

[James]

Completely wrong.

I'm for equality, Brexiters are picking and choosing what's considered democratic based on their own preferences. It's utterly hypocritical for a brexiter to deny Scotland a referendum when I remember back in 2016, on the day of the vote when things didn't look good for Brexit, that brexiters were already lining up their excuses and accusations, plans for another vote.

The landscape has changed since the last indyref. Scotland voted to remain, and they've voted heavily in favour of the SNP whose whole stance in independence. The EU was a big part of why the last Indyref failed and I think a lot of people that voted against leaving the UK would vote for it now.

We can't force Scotland to stay with us if they don't want to and they deserve to have the choice of facing Brexit with us or going their own way.

Trying to paint that as spite on the part of remainers is just plain dishonest.

Well, I am Scottish and I don't want another referendum because I think independence would be a very bad idea - a historic mistake, and also how bitter and divisive another campaign would be.

I never wanted another EU referendum (after 2016) either because I recognised how entrenched people's views had become, and how much worse another referendum would be.

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

[user104658]

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

45% in the last GE and an 8% increase over 2017, and there's no reason to assume that only SNP voters would vote for independence. Stop trying to mislead with fudged figures :nono:.

[Tom4784]

Well, I am Scottish and I don't want another referendum because I think independence would be a very bad idea - a historic mistake, and also how bitter and divisive another campaign would be.

I never wanted another EU referendum (after 2016) either because I recognised how entrenched people's views had become, and how much worse another referendum would be.

Polls here show that most people don't want independence, and the SNP don't get overwhelming support - they get in the 40% range in elections now - and many people don't like them.

If enough people are demanding a vote then the government must listen, it is the democratic way of things. As TS has said, your stats aren't exactly infallible, the SNP's hold has increased with every election in the past few years and there's no reason to believe that their hold will get weaker since people aren't likely to vote for the Tories and Labour's in disarray. With Labour in the state it's in, SNP's majority in Scotland will likely only increase.

A brexiter like Boris denying Scotland a referendum is nothing short of high hypocrisy.

[Josy]

45% in the last GE and an 8% increase over 2017, and there's no reason to assume that only SNP voters would vote for independence. Stop trying to mislead with fudged figures :nono:.

An very similar percent as the first indyref (45 for 55 against iirc?)

If you are judging by the figures of the latest GE then it points to Scotland still not wanting independence.

[Josy]

If enough people are demanding a vote then the government must listen, it is the democratic way of things. As TS has said, your stats aren't exactly infallible, the SNP's hold has increased with every election in the past few years and there's no reason to believe that their hold will get weaker since people aren't likely to vote for the Tories and Labour's in disarray. With Labour in the state it's in, SNP's majority in Scotland will likely only increase.

A brexiter like Boris denying Scotland a referendum is nothing short of high hypocrisy.

Disregarding the vote from the first referendum isn't exactly democratic either though.

[Twosugars]

Disregarding the vote from the first referendum isn't exactly democratic either though.

You must admit though that brexit constitutes a serious and material change in circumstances

[Crimson Dynamo]

Disregarding the vote from the first referendum isn't exactly democratic either though.

Having another ref is not disregarding, it's asking again due to major constitutional change. That is very democratic

[Josy]

You must admit though that brexit constitutes a serious and material change in circumstances

That seems to be what's posted ad nauseam tbh, the fact is you cant completely disregard what the voters chose first time round by claiming it's democratic to hold another election. That would be true hypocrisy.

[Kizzy]

I can't believe so many people are cheer leading for the UK to be broken up.

It's like Remainers are thinking 'we didn't get what we wanted with Brexit so we might as well trash the country'.

Well what's the difference they are both unions of countries...not country.
This is the issue nobody sees the other countries in Britain as deserving of a voice.

It's hypocritical to suggest we leave one union to assert our independence while at the same time denying another that right.

[Twosugars]

That seems to be what's posted ad nauseam tbh, the fact is you cant completely disregard what the voters chose first time round by claiming it's democratic to hold another election. That would be true hypocrisy.

Posted ad nauseam bc it is true.
It's hard to imagine a bigger upheaval in terms of change than that.

[Kizzy]

If the circumstances were the same as in indy ref 1 I would agree to a definate no. But they are not, they are being torn away from the European union , with all their rights, protection, funding, laws and trade for what?...

[Twosugars]

Having another ref is not disregarding, it's asking again due to major constitutional change. That is very democratic

Not me agreeing with you :omgno:

[Beso]

Such politeness for the management....why can't it be like this all the time?

[bots]

I can see why Scottish people may feel they are out of step with england regarding the wish to remain part of the EU, but something the SNP are being very quiet on is that Scotland are much less financially viable as an independent entity than they were when the last referendum was held and it was touch and go financially back then because the SNP's figures didn't add up.

To (re) join the EU they wouldn't pass the relevant financial criteria either without major reforms

[Beso]

If the circumstances were the same as in indy ref 1 I would agree to a definate no. But they are not, they are being torn away from the European union , with all their rights, protection, funding, laws and trade for what?...

You are discussing scotland as a whole...sorry, but scotland just ain't like that.

No matter what the snp won in the election scotland is still very divided...so NO...another referendum is not just pointless but also unjust and undemocratic.

[Kizzy]

You are discussing scotland as a whole...sorry, but scotland just ain't like that.

No matter what the snp won in the election scotland is still very divided...so NO...another referendum is not just pointless but also unjust and undemocratic.

Just like England then?..

Again the argument for another ref would be based on the result of the EU ref and warranted on that principle for me.

[user104658]

For what it's worth I strongly suspect another referendum would yield more or less exactly the same result as the first one if held right now. Holding one before the full effects of Brexit become apparent is not sensible. If Brexit is a disaster, the voters should know that before deciding on independence. In the unrealistic even that Brexit is actually an economic success for the rUK, then unfortunately I feel that independence with rUK outside a common market is probably a mistake. Realistically, trade between Scotland and England is always going to be higher, and it may be more sensible to seek DevoMax (full devolution of taxation, benefits and social care - THESE are the important factors) over full indy.

On the thread topic though, the letter to BoJo is a formality and they will obviously have fully expected a "no" from Westminster, it's just something they legally had to do before pushing other avenues.

[Beso]

Any Brexiter that demanded Brexit and made out that any attempts to oppose it is to oppose democracy YET oppose Scotland's right to choose whether they want to stay in the UK or not are complete and utter ****ing hypocrites and Boris is the king of their hypocritical kingdom.

Scotland voted overwhelmingly for the SNP which is anti-brexit and pro-Scotland's independence. The Tories dominance in the election was touted by brexiters as a sign that the public still want brexit yet they cover their eyes to the fact that Scotland is obviously telling us, in the same way, that they want an indyref.

Any brexiter that would oppose Scotland's demand for an indyref is a hypocrite and a poser who only pretends to care about democracy when it benefits them.



That's not true..

Any brexiteer who vote brexit still sees a chance to convince scotland to stay...it's the anti brexit lot that LOST....they are the hypocrites...hypocrites with an opinion on something that is only seen from one side...totally ignoring the other votes in scotland for parties that wanted brexit...cause it wasn't 18 thousand snp....to nil during the election. .


Imo..the hypocrit is the person ignoring these voters...ando thier rights as a uk voter on a UK issue...IE brexit..

Once In a lifetime, also has the first whiff of a hypocrites fart about it.

[arista]

She is Live now
SNP Conference.

her Indy2 will be delayed again
because of Covid.


Her date to start the process, the End of 2023
Subject to Change

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-59334883