Feminist Masterpiece Or Porn? : Russell Brand

[arista]

EdP9H60N2l8


Brings in Thatcher.

[Oliver_W]

Why is such a bland song causing so much "discourse" :laugh:

It's no different to tons of others which are constantly being churned out...

[arista]

Why is such a bland song causing so much "discourse" :laugh:

It's no different to tons of others which are constantly being churned out...


It because of a Debate in the Guardian.


[On the YouTube comments :Emsea says:
Russell, I commend you. You have such an
incredible gift to speak so eloquently and
clearly. You use this gift to shed light
on constructs that I feel are often built
up by society to confuse us and lead us astray.
You're a lighthouse.
I am so grateful for you and I'm sure
countless others are, as well. Thank you - we love you!]

[Smithy]

Nobody asked for his opinion

[arista]

Nobody asked for his opinion


So many Love him

[Samm]

from someone who built his entire career on his over sexuality... no. and he’s a man trying to validate how women should express their sexuality.. nope

[Nicky91]

and if you want the proof, watch Rock of Ages, where he tongues Alec Baldwin :fan:

rm5MDenG5QY

hypocrite much Russell :unsure:

[Niamh.]

I don't think Russell is a hypocrite, he's never denied his past but he's moved on from there, that's like saying a reformed drug addict can't say they think drugs are bad

In regards to the song, I hope its not an example of modern feminism, its just a load of gutter mouthed trash and would be the same if it were a man singing about his penis

[user104658]

As both the song and video are quite blatantly aimed at men, I have to call BS on it being feminist. It strikes me as the same brand of "feminism" that insists that giving £10 handjobs down the alley behind the pub is an "empowering" economic choice.

[user104658]

I don't think it's porn either, though, it might be intended as a "snap back". Like "Hey if male rappers can have songs about getting pussy we can have the same thing too"... But how about BOTH grow up a bit? :think:

[Niamh.]

As both the song and video are quite blatantly aimed at men, I have to call BS on it being feminist. It strikes me as the same brand of "feminism" that insists that giving £10 handjobs down the alley behind the pub is an "empowering" economic choice.Yep totally agree.

[Niamh.]

As both the song and video are quite blatantly aimed at men, I have to call BS on it being feminist. It strikes me as the same brand of "feminism" that insists that giving £10 handjobs down the alley behind the pub is an "empowering" economic choice.To add to that, one of the comments made a good point as well - before it was men objectifying women for men, now its women objectifying themselves for men, same end result, that isn't progress

[Shaun]

I wouldn't necessarily agree it's objectifying themselves, if anything they're objectifying men by saying they only want the ones with worthy penises :laugh:

I don't think this video is either anti-feminist or pro-feminist, it's just... attention-grabbing and it appears to have worked. It's a mildly catchy song but it's not going to go down as anything of major influence or value.

[Niamh.]

Worthy penises [emoji38]

[user104658]

I wouldn't necessarily agree it's objectifying themselves, if anything they're objectifying men by saying they only want the ones with worthy penises [emoji23]



I don't think this video is either anti-feminist or pro-feminist, it's just... attention-grabbing and it appears to have worked. It's a mildly catchy song but it's not going to go down as anything of major influence or value.Nah the whole thing appeals to the male power fantasy; it's just an invitation to imagine that that "worthy penis" is, obviously, "you" (the listener). I mean half of the rest of it is about ramming that "worthy penis" down her throat. Porn stuff 4 men.

[Liam-]

Nobody bats an eyelid when put out songs about sex, but woman are still expected to remain silent about their sexualities, is the song great? No, is it going to forward the feminist movement any? No, but who cares? It’s just a song, I will never understand why things like this trigger people so much, especially the blokes who probably watch porn on the regs but have a coronary whenever a women talks about sex.

And as for Brand, I love him, but he is a hypocrite, he made a career from being a famous sex addict, that was his whole shtick, he gave a bloke a handjob in a public bathroom for a tv show ffs.

[Ammi]

...I do t really know how I feel about what he’s saying....I want to give it more thought...but if this is just emulating ‘Male’ hip hop in terms of having a sexist/male dominated content...etc...?...why are these things only analysed when it’s females doing the same or similar things...why does it take females to produce this type of content, for Russell of anyone to feel its discussion worthy..?...

[Ammi]

....also, did he describe it as erotica/he sees it as erotica...?...but isn’t that also the thing that often happens with females...that ‘erotica’ is only how he’s seeing the ladies...I didn’t see them as that...

[Ammi]

...will think about this...

[Niamh.]

Nobody bats an eyelid when put out songs about sex, but woman are still expected to remain silent about their sexualities, is the song great? No, is it going to forward the feminist movement any? No, but who cares? It’s just a song, I will never understand why things like this trigger people so much, especially the blokes who probably watch porn on the regs but have a coronary whenever a women talks about sex.

And as for Brand, I love him, but he is a hypocrite, he made a career from being a famous sex addict, that was his whole shtick, he gave a bloke a handjob in a public bathroom for a tv show ffs.I certainly don't think women should remain silent about our sexualities but i don't really believe that she wants a cock rammed down her throat either so is she being honest about her sexuality or is it more like what TS said and playing more to what men like to think women want sexually?

[Ammi]

...I just wish these things were not just discussed when it’s females and more dismissed/disregarded/ignored/or whatever when it’s males...

[Niamh.]

...I just wish these things were not just discussed when it’s females and more dismissed/disregarded/ignored/or whatever when it’s males...That is true, both are trash imo I suppose its discussed more when its women because it happens less but I still definitely agree with your point

[Liam-]

I certainly don't think women should remain silent about our sexualities but i don't really believe that she wants a cock rammed down her throat either so is she being honest about her sexuality or is it more like what TS said and playing more to what men like to think women want sexually?

Who knows what she enjoys? Not to get too graphic but ‘’throat ****ing’ is a practiced sexual activity, she could very well enjoy it, I personally couldn’t care less if she does it or not, that’s her business, what bothers me is that women are held to a much higher standard than men when it comes to sex and expressing themselves around it, you can pretty much guarantee men like Brand or Shapiro would have nothing to say if a bloke released this song from their perspective

[Ammi]

That is true, both are trash imo I suppose its discussed more when its women because it happens less but I still definitely agree with your point

...yeah, I just think that if this is a worthy discussion...then why isn’t/wasn’t it worthy with so many songs where the sexual content is so male dominated ...and yet this one song...?...and apparently it’s discussable and inferring that it shouldn’t be something that’s okay for either without labelling it ‘erotica’, like in the discussion/or opinion vid...

[Niamh.]

Who knows what she enjoys? Not to get too graphic but ‘’throat ****ing’ is a practiced sexual activity, she could very well enjoy it, I personally couldn’t care less if she does it or not, that’s her business, what bothers me is that women are held to a much higher standard than men when it comes to sex and expressing themselves around it, you can pretty much guarantee men like Brand or Shapiro would have nothing to say if a bloke released this song from their perspectiveMaybe she does [emoji38] but I'm willing to bet most women don't. I have heard of throat ****ing and I'm pretty sure it's mainly done for the enjoyment if the giver rather than the receiver.

[Niamh.]

...yeah, I just think that if this is a worthy discussion...then why isn’t/wasn’t it worthy with so many songs where the sexual content is so male dominated ...and yet this one song...?...and apparently it’s discussable and inferring that it shouldn’t be something that’s okay for either without labelling it ‘erotica’, like in the discussion/or opinion vid...Sure, my only objection to it really is that some people are claiming its a feminism moment and progressive

[Ammi]

Sure, my only objection to it really is that some people are claiming its a feminism moment and progressive

..I’m going to give it more though because I’m not e tiredly sure what my thoughts are yet...but, I’d like to see more in depth female opinion in the same way as Russell has just given....because I’ve only seen his vid and then that talk through thing with Ben Shapiro...:laugh:...I’m not sure if that’s meant to be a mock or something serious...anyways, it doesn’t sit right with me atm that males would comment in it and yet haven’t before with anything Male dominant and more sexually explicit...why does it take something like this for some to speak out and say...actually, this isn’t feminism, you should want better..?.../...or similar...

[Ammi]

...the title that he’s given the vid is bugging me...to even pose the question ‘....or porn...’... when it’s obviously not porn....

[Niamh.]

Thing about it is Ammi and another difference between this and male rappers talking about sex, is that maybe verbally its like for like but visually in both instances its the women that end up the ones objectified and half naked

[James]

This reminds me of when Annie Lennox criticised Miley Cyrus.

Russell Brand is a parent now, so I guess that is one of the ways people's perspective changes over time.

That and the fact that chart music becomes unlistenable to lot of people when they get older.

[Niamh.]

This reminds me of when Annie Lennox criticised Miley Cyrus.

Russell Brand is a parent now, so I guess that is one of the ways people's perspective changes over time.

That and the fact that chart music becomes unlistenable to lot of people when they get older.Regarding Miley Cyrus, thats a good example of the difference between male artists and female, if a man had done wrecking ball it wouldn't have been him swinging naked on the ball, he would have a hired a woman to do it

[armand.kay]

why are people acting like this is something new??? old ass people too who were around when Madonna released a coffe table book filled with her nudes

[Niamh.]

why are people acting like this is something new??? old ass people too who were around when Madonna released a coffe table book filled with her nudesOld ass? :oh:

[armand.kay]

Old ass? :oh:

sorry queen I meant to say wise :lovedup:

[Niamh.]

sorry queen I meant to say wise :lovedup:That's more like it [emoji16]

[Oliver_W]

Well, quite. There's virtually nothing new or interesting about this particular song ("song") so why is this one of all things triggering some weirdos and sparking discussion in others :joker: it's somewhat baffling...

[Calderyon]

Porn. Softcore kind, but porn regardless imo.

[Niamh.]

Well, quite. There's virtually nothing new or interesting about this particular song ("song") so why is this one of all things triggering some weirdos and sparking discussion in others :joker: it's somewhat baffling...My only issue with it (and I suppose technically speaking that's not really the fault of Cardi B unless she's actually claimed its a feminist master piece which I don't think she has) is people acting like that has been claimed but as far as I can see Ben Shapiro was the first one who brought feminism into it

[user104658]

Nobody bats an eyelid when put out songs about sex, but woman are still expected to remain silent about their sexualities, is the song great? No, is it going to forward the feminist movement any? No, but who cares? It’s just a song, I will never understand why things like this trigger people so much, especially the blokes who probably watch porn on the regs but have a coronary whenever a women talks about sex.

And as for Brand, I love him, but he is a hypocrite, he made a career from being a famous sex addict, that was his whole shtick, he gave a bloke a handjob in a public bathroom for a tv show ffs.Pretending that emulation and subversion of aggressive male sexual norms that objectify the female is somehow empowering for the female because it "takes back agency" of these male-focused porn acts is... Well, it's a take. A bit too much from the "confused progressive" slant, if I'm honest. A bit.

If I though it was a satire or parody of male rappers then maybe? Maybe it is, and then maybe it is clever. But I sadly suspect its playing into the same largely misogynistic male-rapper-tropes but "With a female doing it OHHH!!" and that's a bit sad. I mean the whole thing is overlaid with a male voice looping "we got some hoes in this house".

Like I said though, maybe it's a social commentary satire and it's going over my head.

[Marsh.]

It reminds me of Lily Allen's Hard Out Here only without the sarcasm.

[Niamh.]

I like how Joe Rogan is half defending Ben Shapiro but also lists one of his strengths as being good at arguing with uneducated people [emoji38]

2JR8neao7X0

[James]

I found out today that Russell Brand is Kirsty Gallacher's brother-in-law. Never knew that before.

[arista]

1294687258180714496


An Old Clip From when Thatcher Died

[Ammi]

I like how Joe Rogan is half defending Ben Shapiro but also lists one of his strengths as being good at arguing with uneducated people [emoji38]

2JR8neao7X0

...awww, I don’t know who the lady was that Joe was chatting with...but I was hoping for a female perspective on the song/vid, FINALLY...:laugh:...but the opinion was on Ben, mostly...which you said actually but I hadn’t read it properly....


...I still don’t know where I stand with this because I’m one of THOSE people who have always felt that hip hop is male dominated/sexist etc and it would be lovely to see more female injected into it....I mean, to see some really prominent female hip hop artists...and here we are, we finally got there...so I don’t want to be one of THOSE people who are now feeling....EXCUSE Me...:laugh:...


....females are sexualised every day and in many ways, in a way that males aren’t...and that in itself is always worthy of criticism and discussion and yet it wouldn’t still be happening if it was criticised and discussed as much as it should have.../...that sexualisation, I mean...not hip hop music and its content...Russell Brand, who i like, even did it himself, because he felt the vid and content was erotica....but surely that’s like saying...’well she wore this/or she acted that/or she said whatever...’...it’s surely him projecting some of his ‘woman views’....anyway, as I say, I still don’t have formed opinions as such...but with female sexualisation being part of so much in society on a daily basis...it just doesn’t sit right to me atm to ‘single out’ this song and vid when these amazing ladies are finally bringing the much needed ‘female’ to hip hop...and I totally see that it’s not ‘wholesome, family content’ etc...but for me it’s about seeing these ladies for the people they are and how they’re a huge part in the evolvement of hip hop and making it much less Male dominant...so far the discussions it seems to have sparked, appear to be judging these ladies ‘by their cover...’...and adding to the sexualisation that is felt being displayed...rather than ‘reading between the lines’ of having any interest in them as outstanding female hip hop artists....

[Tom4784]

I didn't watch the video as I find Russell to be longwinded but to be honest, I don't really see the song as being any different to most male rap songs that go on about shagging girls with big tits and big asses, the only difference is in this song is that they're saying they want big dicks to 'fill up their tiny garage'.

Given that most female rappers tend to have fanbases that are mostly female/LGBT focused, I wouldn't really say that the video is primarily focused on the male gaze since it would be a disconnect from it's intended audience. I do see the merit in claims that it's embracing female sexuality though since in a lot of ways, it's a song that's focused on the female take on sexualising the opposite gender. Is it backwards or progressive? You can make a case for either.

I've always considered feminism, in a large part to be about the equality of choice, that women should be free to pursue the same things that men do or that, if they choose so, they can be a housewife if that's what they want (same for men, tbh, there shouldn't be any shame in being a househusband) what's important is that they have the choice. I think there's power in embracing sexuality, especially when even in today's world, female sexuality is still something that is quite looked down upon. If I had a banging bod, I'd never wear a shirt unless I had to and I'd feel great about it so I can't begrudge someone for having the confidence to be feel empowered in their own flesh, especially when the world is often down on women for doing so (while men are often applauded for showing off).

[The Slim Reaper]

1294687258180714496


An Old Clip From when Thatcher Died

Finally a brand of feminism I can get behind. :smug:

[arista]

Finally a brand of feminism I can get behind. :smug:



She is a bit Nasty

[The Slim Reaper]

She is a bit Nasty

I agree, especially the way she decimated the north of the country. :smug:

[arista]

I agree, especially the way she decimated the north of the country. :smug:



You Sly Fox

[Ammi]

...:laugh:...I think that you’re flirting with Slim, Arista...

[The Slim Reaper]

You Sly Fox

:laugh2:

[arista]

[Russell Brand is Slammed for 'mansplaining feminism'
during analysis of Cardi B and Megan
Thee Stallion's provocative song WAP... after
he branded the video 'porn']

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8632671/Russell-Brand-slammed-discussed-Cardi-B-Megan-Thee-Stalions-song-WAP-porn.html

[Kizzy]

Have to say it's a bit hypocritical of him to attempt to censor how other people express their sexuality.
I'm a bit conflicted on it tbh, IM torn between loving the freeform nature of doja cat and her openly sexual lyrics and finding them a bit cringe... maybe it's my age?
I'm not saying that as in I'm old so I hate it regardress, I just think that generationally my concept of feminism and empowerment is very different.

[Marsh.]

Have to say it's a bit hypocritical of him to attempt to censor how other people express their sexuality.

How is he attempting to censor it?

[user104658]

It's just logically no type of feminism at all. Feminists have been arguing for decades against the objectification of women in the music industry (and especially in rap) and now the oh-so-progressive answer (why on earth did no one think of it before?) is "AHA, we'll do it TOO, we'll objectify ourselves AND men, and by taking ownership of it we take back the power!"...

...except that all it actually does is undo the whole original argument, because what will those in favour of the objectification of women in rap now say when people try to argue against it? "Uhh, women do it too :)".

So the answer to women being objectified by men apparently was not to stop women being objectified... but to attain equality the answer was for men to be objectified by women, women to be objectified by women, and also women to be objectified by other women. And the male-objectifiers will love women objectifying women. :shrug: Big win, so awesome.

Next up: solving racial inequality by taking away everyone's rights completely. Can't have enequal rights if no one has any rights, right? It's so simple... there must be some sort of catch...

[user104658]

How is he attempting to censor it?

I don't think he's trying to censor anyone. I do get some of the criticism of Brand in terms of that - although he has clearly put a lot of work into becoming a different person - he still is clearly laden down with shame-triggers that mean he shies away from bringing the murkier elements of his past into the discussion of things like this. The irony being that more openly talking about his "womanizing" days, and discovering the error in them, would actually lend weight to his argument rather than diminish it. He does talk about his past as substances-addict quite extensively when he's talking about drugs, but "goes there" far less with his.. umm... approach to relationships. Maybe something that will come in time.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, I hate when someone speaking out on something is told they're trying to "censor" everyone else. It distracts the debate to an argument nobody made.

[Kizzy]

How is he attempting to censor it?

Maybe that was the wrong phrase, not censor but certainly slap on it a definition as something that requires monitoring, like porn. That's what I took from his opinion.

[user104658]

Yeah, I hate when someone speaking out on something is told they're trying to "censor" everyone else. It distracts the debate to an argument nobody made.

Especially as I don't think I've seen ANYONE, even on the intywebs, try to argue that they "shouldn't be allowed" to make whatever music they want to make. It's hardly the first and nowhere near the worst example of "problematic music", the glorification of drugs/violence has been a problem in rap forever and there are plenty of other examples in other genres (glorification of depression/suicide in certain musical genres is one that springs to mind) but I don't think anything should be censored... really totally different to the discussion of what is a good idea and what message something sends. I'm happy to point out that I think WAP sends a questionable message whilst still defending their right to record & release it if they want to.

[Kizzy]

Yeah, I hate when someone speaking out on something is told they're trying to "censor" everyone else. It distracts the debate to an argument nobody made.

Ok calm down I've clarified that for you. He was trying to put a label on the content certainly. It's the boomer in me that hates the content too really but in other ways its freedom of expression and so totally the artists interpretation.

[Kizzy]

Especially as I don't think I've seen ANYONE, even on the intywebs, try to argue that they "shouldn't be allowed" to make whatever music they want to make. It's hardly the first and nowhere near the worst example of "problematic music", the glorification of drugs/violence has been a problem in rap forever and there are plenty of other examples in other genres (glorification of depression/suicide in certain musical genres is one that springs to mind) but I don't think anything should be censored... really totally different to the discussion of what is a good idea and what message something sends. I'm happy to point out that I think WAP sends a questionable message whilst still defending their right to record & release it if they want to.

* see clarification

[Marsh.]

Ok calm down

I'm perfectly calm, I'm responding to someone else's post, which I'm allowed. :thumbs:

It's the boomer in me that hates the content too really but in other ways its freedom of expression and so totally the artists interpretation.

Calm down, it is freedom of expression, a moot point though considering no one is silencing them but questioning their version of "feminism".

[Kizzy]

I'm perfectly calm, I'm responding to someone else's post, which I'm allowed. :thumbs:



Calm down, it is freedom of expression, a moot point though considering no one is silencing them but questioning their version of "feminism".
You were sniping at my comment, let's not start twisting. Only I have made reference to being censored, nobody else that post you commented on was in reply to my comment. I have attempted to make myself clear, you seem to be taking exception to my interpretation of his view... and that's fine.

I haven't suggested anyone was silenced... You've just projected that into my post.

[Marsh.]

*sighs*

You were sniping at my comment, let's not start twisting. Only I have made reference to being censored, nobody else that post you commented on was in reply to my comment.

TS quoted my post and made a comment on being censored and said...

I don't think he's trying to censor anyone. I do get some of the criticism of Brand in terms of that - although he has clearly put a lot of work into becoming a different person - he still is clearly laden down with shame-triggers that mean he shies away from bringing the murkier elements of his past into the discussion of things like this. The irony being that more openly talking about his "womanizing" days, and discovering the error in them, would actually lend weight to his argument rather than diminish it. He does talk about his past as substances-addict quite extensively when he's talking about drugs, but "goes there" far less with his.. umm... approach to relationships. Maybe something that will come in time.

Which I then responded to.

I made both posts before you replied to the first one. One in response to you, one in response to TS around the same point. But, yeah, I twisted it. :rolleyes:

A discussion you started about whether Russell Brand's debate was in anyway linked to censorship or calling for it. We all agree he's not. Moving on.

[Kizzy]

I was the first person to mention the phrase censor in the thread.
You said ' how is he attempting to censor it'?
I agreed it wasn't the best way to describe his take and amended my point. Not once did I mention anyone being silenced so that point is moot as it bears no relevance to any of my comments here.

It's my opinion that in questioning their version of feminism that's challenging their freedom of expression, as he's projecting his own warped perception of feminism by terming his interpretation 'porn'

[Ammi]

...yeah, I am atm of similar thought to Kizzy...I mean, I like Russell, but saying it was erotica was how he sees it and how he is seeing the ladies ..and I think he said something along the lines of them looking lovely or pretty as well...he’s not seeing them as whole and entire people, he’s only seeing ‘sex’ and I think that’s a huge issue with how females can often be seen and he’s just ‘bought into that’ with what he’s saying...which is quite disappointing...you can’t really give a message that it does feminism no favours’...while doing feminism no favours with what you say....I mean, ‘mansplaining feminism’ is fine, I don’t have any issues with it personally...but it has to be an ally, in my own opinion...and I didn’t see that with Russell and his public opinion...

[Ammi]

...anyways, that’s it really...I just don’t have so much to say atm about this song and vid because I still haven’t given it much thought...(...it’s quite a catchy tune though, I have to say...)...

[Marsh.]

I was the first person to mention the phrase censor in the thread.

Again, I know.
You accused my second comment of "sniping" at you, when I was responding to another poster. Read.

Not once did I mention anyone being silenced so that point is moot as it bears no relevance to any of my comments here.

Never said you did. I said no one was being silenced as in "censored". Brand wasn't trying to silence anyone in giving his opinion.

[Nicky91]

...anyways, that’s it really...I just don’t have so much to say atm about this song and vid because I still haven’t given it much thought...(...it’s quite a catchy tune though, I have to say...)...

yeah but they are now ended by the number one music critic (with all his music experience/expertise) Russell Brand

i mean the only thing what comes close to his music experience is his 2 years of marriage to Katy Perry :laugh2:


also LOL at Brand's personal information


Brand has been said to dress in a "flamboyant bohemian fashion"[159] and has been diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and bipolar disorder.[160][161] He also suffered from bulimia,[162] pornography addiction,[163] and experienced a period of self-harming.[164] Brand has described the concept of fame "like ashes" in his mouth.

source: russell's wikipedia page

[Cherie]

...anyways, that’s it really...I just don’t have so much to say atm about this song and vid because I still haven’t given it much thought...(...it’s quite a catchy tune though, I have to say...)...

Maybe you can get the kids to sing it in Assembly when you return to school :amazed:

On the issue itself, it's great free publicity for them

[Marsh.]

yeah but they are now ended by the number one music critic (with all his music experience/expertise) Russell Brand

i mean the only thing what comes close to his music experience is his 2 years of marriage to Katy Perry :laugh2:


also LOL at Brand's personal information



source: russell's wikipedia page

Do tell us what your experience in the music industry entails since this new information that you must have been in it to have an opinion on music came to light?

[Tom4784]

Yeah, I hate when someone speaking out on something is told they're trying to "censor" everyone else. It distracts the debate to an argument nobody made.

It's just a hypocritical way of silencing opinions that people can't argue against. An opinion cannot be an act of censorship towards someone else but people will make out that it is to invalidate that opinion without going to the effort of actually putting a well thought out argument against it.

Claiming censorship while looking to censor an opinion they dislike, it's grim.

[bots]

equality is equality to my mind and i'm all for discussion on the topic. I'm not of the correct generation to see anything of value in that music video, and i'm way passed the point of being shocked by commercial shock 'trash' which is how it comes across to me. Personally, i think it's the wrong emphasis to want to emulate unseemly male behaviour, it shouldn't be an aspiration, but each to their own.

[Ammi]

...this is a long article, but if anyone can bear to read it, I think it’s the best article I’ve read on the Wap song/vid...the Republican congressman, James Bradley, btw...who is mentioned...?..(...if he’s the one I googled...)...he is not pro choice but he is pro guns...



‘WAP’ Is Making People Uncomfortable Because It’s About Female Pleasure...


Unless you’re living under a rock that can’t connect to Spotify, you’ve likely heard the Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion song “WAP,” or at least the discussion around it. It’s boastful and explicit in a way that’s consistent with a lot of rap music. But what’s made it so huge immediately following its release, and what opens it up to criticism from fearful men of all political inclinations, is how candid and explicit it is about female desire.

The first time I heard “WAP,” there were lines that made me gasp. On first listen you’re likely to raise your eyebrows, or even blush a little. It’s a song that Goes There. Even its name, taken from a line that’s repeated over and over, has to be shortened to an acronym in polite conversation. “WAP” is so explicit that cleaning it up for radio play feels nearly nonsensical. The censored title, “Wet and Gushy,” feels almost more graphic than the one it’s replacing. And so many words are removed from Cardi B’s second verse that it’s mostly just verbs: “I don’t wanna [redacted], I wanna [redacted] / I wanna [redacted], I wanna [redacted] / I want you to touch [redacted] that swing in the back of my [redacted] ...”

“WAP” never takes itself too seriously, and at times its exaggerations are trying to make you laugh. But it’s also a personal, thorough and incredibly detailed account of what sexual pleasure looks and feels like. That’s something we’re used to seeing and hearing from male artists, sure. But we very rarely see it from women — and clearly, it’s still subversive enough to freak a lot of people out.

Republican congressman James Bradley said the song is “what happens when children are raised without God and without a strong father figure” and that he feels “sorry for future girls if this is their role model.” Former Republican congressional candidate DeAnna Lorraine claimed the song “set the entire female gender back by 100 years.” Right-wing pundit Ben Shapiro theorized the physical response to pleasure the song describes may be bacterial vaginosis. (He got roasted on Twitter, naturally, for the apparent lack of that physical response in his own life.)

But it wasn’t just right-wing moralists who objected to “WAP.” Comedian Russell Brand, for some reason, weighed in to call the video “porn.” He said it couldn’t be liberating because it used a “template that had already been established by the former dominator,” in the same way that Margaret Thatcher is not a feminist icon “because the values that she extolled, espoused and conveyed were male values.”

The dubious comparison of “WAP” to Margaret Thatcher’s leadership aside, it’s a flawed hypothesis. As author and university lecturer Kate Lister pointed out, “the underlining premise” of Brand’s response is that enjoying sex is “exclusively for men” and “women couldn’t possibly enjoy that like they do.”

The consistent thread in all of the opposition to the song is that it’s too sexual. None of these people objected when Cardi B posed nude or when Megan Thee Stallion twerked on camera. Their sexuality wasn’t a problem when it was consumable, when their images were to there to be looked at. It crossed a line, apparently, when they became active participants: when they talked about what they liked in bed, or how it made them feel.

And of course, the fact that these are two women of colour being explicit about sex means they face even more criticism, much of it coded.

“Critiquing ‘WAP’ as degrading, dehumanizing art is a camouflage for critiquing Black womanhood as a problematic expression,” Brianna Holt wrote at Complex about the reaction to the song.

“Whether demonstration exists through the form of a protest with signs that read ‘My body, my choice’ or a colourful music video where Megan Thee Stallion is seen doing the splits in a tiger-print bodysuit, all women deserve to express their sexuality how they choose, without the criticism from others... Black women shaking their butts and describing their sex life in music is not what sets Black women back; it’s the people who justify harm toward us because of these actions.”

The whole thing is reminiscent of Bill O’Reilly slamming “Partition,” one of many stunning tracks from Beyoncé’s surprise self-titled 2013 album, and one that’s also about enjoying sex (albeit in a much less graphic way than “WAP”). According to O’Reilly, who has been accused of sexual harassment, “Partition” was irresponsible because “teenage girls look up to Beyoncé, particularly girls of colour,” and the song ignored the “devastation” of “unwanted pregnancies” and “fractured families.”

At the time the album was released, Beyoncé was married and had recently had her first child. By conservative pundit logic, being in a heterosexual marriage is essentially the only time sex is permitted. But to hear O’Reilly explain it, even a married mother enjoying sex with her husband was not okay. He framed female desire as dangerous, a force that could be destructive to society.

The idea that a song about women having pleasurable sex could be harmful to teenage girls is puzzling, even when it isn’t coming from a middle-aged man. Like a lot of art that’s clearly and specifically about sex, no, “WAP” and “Partition” aren’t appropriate for young kids.

But it’s actually really healthy to offer teenage girls a conversation about sex that’s squarely focused on their own pleasure. That’s something that was hard to find when I was a teenager in the early and mid-2000s. The charts were dominated by sexy virgins who bared metres of midriff and excessive cleavage but spoke about preserving their virginity, letting girls know it was important to be sexually desirable but not to actually have any desires themselves.

There was also the casual misogyny of the pop-punk and emo bands I loved, where women were casually referred to as “*****s” and male singers who would later be revealed to have inappropriate relationships with underage fans fantasized about girlfriends who dumped them dying violently.

Sure, there was the odd exception. But songs that not only thought about an honest female perspective, let alone considered what female desire felt like, were few and far between. Growing up in a culture so heteronormatively focused on “pleasing your man,” teen girls could definitely benefit from more of that.

What’s new about “WAP” isn’t that it’s sexually graphic. There wasn’t a similar moral panic around The Weeknd’s “Initiation,” or Lil’ Wayne “Lollipop,” or George Michael’s “I Want Your Sex.” The fact that so many people are scandalized by “WAP” is a clear indication of just how much we need it.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/wap-cardi-b-female-pleasure-213447804.html

[user104658]

Sure, there was the odd exception. But songs that not only thought about an honest female perspective, let alone considered what female desire felt like, were few and far between. Growing up in a culture so heteronormatively focused on “pleasing your man,” teen girls could definitely benefit from more of that.

What’s new about “WAP” isn’t that it’s sexually graphic. There wasn’t a similar moral panic around The Weeknd’s “Initiation,” or Lil’ Wayne “Lollipop,” or George Michael’s “I Want Your Sex.” The fact that so many people are scandalized by “WAP” is a clear indication of just how much we need it.


Counter-opinion; people don't voice a problem with the other songs because people are, tediously, just so used to men doing it. That doesn't mean they should do it, or make it a good idea, or mean that the better option isn't "everyone actually maybe do it less or not at all" rather than "Wheeee let's all do it".

As for the first paragraph; I think they missed the part where half of the song that apparently isn't about "heteronormatively pleasing your man" is about women "enjoying" getting throat-****ed until they choke... in an environment where support services for female victims of sexual violence are already FULL of girls and young women who have had unpleasant encounters with inexperienced boys who think that's normal and enjoyable for the girl because of how it's represented in actual porn. Do we REALLY need mainstream pop music reinforcing the idea that, unless they're somehow sexually repressed, women enjoy balls slapping their chins until they vomit? Is... is that feminism? If so, I think I really have missed the progressive boat. I don't have much desire to catch the next one :umm2:.

[Liam-]

I don’t think anyone has actually claimed that it is feminism though? The only people who have mentioned feminism are the men offended by women enjoying their sexuality, I can’t imagine Cardi wrote this song with the idea of being the next Emmeline Pankhurst, she released a song she wanted to, with lyrics she wanted to use, like men have been doing forever, like I’ve said before, nobody cares when men rap about bitches and licking lollipops, they only get offended when women talk about sex because it’s ‘not what women do’ it’s a completely sexist mindset

[Niamh.]

I'm not offended, I was just commenting on the feminist claims but yeah it was Ben Shapiro who really brought that in to it in the first place

[user104658]

I don’t think anyone has actually claimed that it is feminism though? The only people who have mentioned feminism are the men offended by women enjoying their sexuality, I can’t imagine Cardi wrote this song with the idea of being the next Emmeline Pankhurst, she released a song she wanted to, with lyrics she wanted to use, like men have been doing forever, like I’ve said before, nobody cares when men rap about bitches and licking lollipops, they only get offended when women talk about sex because it’s ‘not what women do’ it’s a completely sexist mindset

That's flat-out false. While the recording artists might not be branding it feminism, it IS being branded feminism from several liberal feminist corners.

The second BIB is flat out false, also. Normalisation of "porn culture sex" as something to be expected leads to increases in sexual violence - especially amougst young, inexperienced people. Throwing the idea that agrressive sex acts are actually "what girls want" - coming FROM women - is only going to make that worse. That's not to say that some don't enjoy rough sex, but far from everyone does, and those who do mostly don't want that all the time with every partner.

To be clear; the part about the women getting oral sex is not the problematic part of the song. The parts about having sex for money/reward and enjoying (expecting/demanding) aggressive deep-throating are. I mean the latter is straight up physically dangerous when dumb teenagers try to emulate it with no idea what they're doing.

[Liam-]

Oh come on, a song isn’t going to make people go out and try aggressively sexual things ffs, that’s about as tenuous a link as people linking video games and violence.

Also, I’m not up on the feminist corners of the world, but if that’s what they’re saying then that’s an opinion, but imo, unless the artists themselves say it’s some sort of feminist moment, it shouldn’t be judged as one.

The song is objectively bad, but trying to say it could lead to lead to some sort of spike in sexual violence as ‘extreme porn culture’ is honestly ridiculous, there is a problem with porn and an over sexualised society of sorts, but I very much doubt a pair of woman putting out a song like this is going to have any sort impact.

[Kizzy]

It's just a hypocritical way of silencing opinions that people can't argue against. An opinion cannot be an act of censorship towards someone else but people will make out that it is to invalidate that opinion without going to the effort of actually putting a well thought out argument against it.

Claiming censorship while looking to censor an opinion they dislike, it's grim.
Another hung up on the word censor...nobody has censored anyone, I made reference to that and then changed my post.

[Kizzy]

Again, I know.
You accused my second comment of "sniping" at you, when I was responding to another poster. Read.



Never said you did. I said no one was being silenced as in "censored". Brand wasn't trying to silence anyone in giving his opinion.

Yeah yeah..

[GoldHeart]

Nobody bats an eyelid when put out songs about sex, but woman are still expected to remain silent about their sexualities, is the song great? No, is it going to forward the feminist movement any? No, but who cares? It’s just a song, I will never understand why things like this trigger people so much, especially the blokes who probably watch porn on the regs but have a coronary whenever a women talks about sex.

And as for Brand, I love him, but he is a hypocrite, he made a career from being a famous sex addict, that was his whole shtick, he gave a bloke a handjob in a public bathroom for a tv show ffs.


WHAT!!?? When was this ???!! :skull:

[Marsh.]

Yeah yeah..

Grow up Kizzy.

[Kizzy]

Grow up Kizzy.

I'm not the one itchin to start bitchin after a 2 day 'forum holiday' :idc:

Best stick to the topic.

[Marsh.]

I'm not the one itchin to start bitchin after a 2 day 'forum holiday' :idc:

Best stick to the topic.

You quoted me love. Brush up on your reading comprehension.

[Kizzy]

You quoted me first luv.
You picked me up on the word censor remember?...

[Kizzy]

Lol

jWsx2iqO1ks

[Marsh.]

You quoted me first luv.
You picked me up on the word censor remember?...

And you call that bitching?

:facepalm:

[Niamh.]

I've been thinking more about this and reading more comments and I came across this one and I thought yeah, you know what? that's a fair point too

why does everything women do have to be “empowering” or some feminist statement? why are russell brand and other mfs i care not to name mansplaining feminism to women? literally why can’t WAP just be a fun song, y’all spend too much time policing how women express themselves

https://extra.ie/2020/08/17/entertainment/celebrity/russell-brand-cardi-b-wap

[Ammi]

I've been thinking more about this and reading more comments and I came across this one and I thought yeah, you know what? that's a fair point too

why does everything women do have to be “empowering” or some feminist statement? why are russell brand and other mfs i care not to name mansplaining feminism to women? literally why can’t WAP just be a fun song, y’all spend too much time policing how women express themselves

https://extra.ie/2020/08/17/entertainment/celebrity/russell-brand-cardi-b-wap

...yeah, that’s a good article as well...as much as I like Russell, I didn’t feel easy about his vid and the points he made...girls just wanna have fun but these things often only become ‘debates’ and debate worthy ...(for some males...)...when girls wanna have fun...this was all debate worthy for Russell at any old time but he only spoke up now...when girls are having fun...

[Cherie]

I've been thinking more about this and reading more comments and I came across this one and I thought yeah, you know what? that's a fair point too

why does everything women do have to be “empowering” or some feminist statement? why are russell brand and other mfs i care not to name mansplaining feminism to women? literally why can’t WAP just be a fun song, y’all spend too much time policing how women express themselves

https://extra.ie/2020/08/17/entertainment/celebrity/russell-brand-cardi-b-wap

totally agree with that

[Marsh.]

I've been thinking more about this and reading more comments and I came across this one and I thought yeah, you know what? that's a fair point too

why does everything women do have to be “empowering” or some feminist statement? why are russell brand and other mfs i care not to name mansplaining feminism to women? literally why can’t WAP just be a fun song, y’all spend too much time policing how women express themselves

https://extra.ie/2020/08/17/entertainment/celebrity/russell-brand-cardi-b-wap

But he was commenting on the people referring to it as feminism. He didn't just decide to start talking about it in feminist terms just because. :laugh:

[Marsh.]

I could also level the accusation that... do feminists want men to be allies to that cause or will every man who dares to discuss issues surrounding it be called a mansplainer? It's a two-way street. :shrug:

[Niamh.]

But he was commenting on the people referring to it as feminism. He didn't just decide to start talking about it in feminist terms just because. [emoji23]I guess it applies more to Ben Shapiro who was the first one to bring feminism into it. I mean it probably should never have been put forward as a feminist argument in the first place because it never claimed to be a feminist statement

[Swan]

Popstars being edgy, nothing new.

[user104658]

...yeah, that’s a good article as well...as much as I like Russell, I didn’t feel easy about his vid and the points he made...girls just wanna have fun but these things often only become ‘debates’ and debate worthy ...(for some males...)...when girls wanna have fun...this was all debate worthy for Russell at any old time but he only spoke up now...when girls are having fun...One could ask, though, is "boys just wanna have fun" (or more often, "boys will be boys") an excuse when male rappers/singers/trump/etc are objectifying women and glorifying aggressive sex? It feels, admittedly without pondering the issue too long, that many of us would quite LIKE to be able to continue criticising objectification and "locker room banter" and calling it out for what it is. That means also doing so when it's females "having their fun".

The idea that everyone should be fine with it/it being sexist not to be fine with it seems to be based on the entirely flimsy premise that "no one is bothered when men do it" when really, if we think about it for a minute, we obviously know that people are indeed bothered when men do it.

[Ammi]

One could ask, though, is "boys just wanna have fun" (or more often, "boys will be boys") an excuse when male rappers/singers/trump/etc are objectifying women and glorifying aggressive sex? It feels, admittedly without pondering the issue too long, that many of us would quite LIKE to be able to continue criticising objectification and "locker room banter" and calling it out for what it is. That means also doing so when it's females "having their fun".

The idea that everyone should be fine with it/it being sexist not to be fine with it seems to be based on the entirely flimsy premise that "no one is bothered when men do it" when really, if we think about it for a minute, we obviously know that people are indeed bothered when men do it.

....hmmm, that isn’t what I said though, TS...none of what you say is what I said so I’m not sure why you’ve quoted me....I said ‘some males’ because I was specifically referring to Russell Brand and not feeling comfortable with his thoughts of the ‘use of sexual imagery and female potency’ in the song content and vid...and yet he...(..so far as I’m aware...)...has not expressed any similar thoughts about ‘the use of sexual imagery and male potency‘ at any time about any song content and vid, something that he’s known exists and yet he’s only expressed comment when it’s female artists...

....anyways, I think that I’ve said this all before as my thoughts ...and those are all the thoughts that I have about it atm...

[Marsh.]

I guess it applies more to Ben Shapiro who was the first one to bring feminism into it. I mean it probably should never have been put forward as a feminist argument in the first place because it never claimed to be a feminist statement

True.

[Kizzy]

And you call that bitching?

:facepalm:

No, I called your snipe after your break bitching. I'd already clarified the censor issue long ago.

[Marsh.]

No, I called your snipe after your break bitching. I'd already clarified the censor issue long ago.

Move on Kiz.

[Kizzy]

One could ask, though, is "boys just wanna have fun" (or more often, "boys will be boys") an excuse when male rappers/singers/trump/etc are objectifying women and glorifying aggressive sex? It feels, admittedly without pondering the issue too long, that many of us would quite LIKE to be able to continue criticising objectification and "locker room banter" and calling it out for what it is. That means also doing so when it's females "having their fun".

The idea that everyone should be fine with it/it being sexist not to be fine with it seems to be based on the entirely flimsy premise that "no one is bothered when men do it" when really, if we think about it for a minute, we obviously know that people are indeed bothered when men do it.

The reason 'people' are bothered that the men that make those kinds of statements about women is it comes from a different place. Songs about bitches and *****s aren't comparable to this song about enjoying ..um, adventurous sex.

[Kizzy]

I guess it applies more to Ben Shapiro who was the first one to bring feminism into it. I mean it probably should never have been put forward as a feminist argument in the first place because it never claimed to be a feminist statement

His reaction though... :hee: my wife is a doctor and she says getting that wet is a condition?

Poor cow :laugh:

I hope the vid gives her some WAP tips.

[user104658]

Songs about bitches and *****s aren't comparable to this song about enjoying ..um, adventurous sex.

The song literally starts with the repeated refrain "There's some wh0res in this house, there's some wh0res in this house, there's some wh0res in this house" and contains lyrics about "wanting" to be skull****ed.

I honestly don't think it's different at all.

[user104658]

His reaction though... :hee: my wife is a doctor and she says getting that wet is a condition?



Poor cow [emoji23]



I hope the vid gives her some WAP tips.To be fair, they suggest needing a mop and bucket which I think probably would be a bit concerning. Though obviously is intended as hyperbole.

[Marsh.]

The reason 'people' are bothered that the men that make those kinds of statements about women is it comes from a different place. Songs about bitches and *****s aren't comparable to this song about enjoying ..um, adventurous sex.

How does it coming from a different place matter though when the end result is the exact same?

[Kizzy]

How does it coming from a different place matter though when the end result is the exact same?

It's not the same imo.

[Kizzy]

The song literally starts with the repeated refrain "There's some wh0res in this house, there's some wh0res in this house, there's some wh0res in this house" and contains lyrics about "wanting" to be skull****ed.

I honestly don't think it's different at all.

You've heard abut reclaiming words.. slut walks, the N word? Now it's wh0re.

The premise of of a man using those words is to describe something that gives 'him' pleasure. This is the opposite, it's a woman who demands her own pleasure. And the bucket and mop is a metaphor for that.

Gushy/ orgasm.

[Marsh.]

It's not the same imo.

The woman being a sexual toy for the bloke in both isn't the same?

[Marsh.]

You've heard abut reclaiming words.. slut walks, the N word? Now it's wh0re.

Not really being "reclaimed" when it's being used in the exact same context. She's not taking control of the word and the situation, she's still "his" wh0re to do as "he" pleases.

[Kizzy]

Not really being "reclaimed" when it's being used in the exact same context. She's not taking control of the word and the situation, she's still "his" wh0re to do as "he" pleases.

That might be what you take from that but I don't. The whole song is a list of what they both women want.. nowhere did I hear do what you please.

[Kizzy]

The woman being a sexual toy for the bloke in both isn't the same?

I don't agree that in this they are suggesting they are 'toys'.

[user104658]

You've heard abut reclaiming words.. slut walks, the N word? Now it's wh0re.



The premise of of a man using those words is to describe something that gives 'him' pleasure. This is the opposite, it's a woman who demands her own pleasure. And the bucket and mop is a metaphor for that.



Gushy/ orgasm.

Reclamation would sort of require it being a woman using the words. The "There's some wh0res in this house" refrain is the only line of the whole thing that's quite clearly, if I'm not mistaken, a male voice :facepalm:.

Why do you imagine that is?

If it's reclamation, why isn't it one of their voices, or another female voice, on that line?

The whole thing reeks of #PickMe dressed up as empowerment. I don't have any real problem with people being able to record whatever they want, I'm not asking for it to be banned or censored, but if it's up in discussion I'm going to call it how I see it.

[Marsh.]

That might be what you take from that but I don't. The whole song is a list of what they both women want.. nowhere did I hear do what you please.

I never said it wasn't what the women want.

I said what the women want is to be the sexual object, which is fine, but it's no different to the role women play in similar songs sung by male artists. So suggesting it is "different" doesn't really work.

[Cherie]

To be fair, they suggest needing a mop and bucket which I think probably would be a bit concerning. Though obviously is intended as hyperbole.

:joker:

pretty grim lyrics when you think about it

[Kizzy]

Reclamation would sort of require it being a woman using the words. The "There's some wh0res in this house" refrain is the only line of the whole thing that's quite clearly, if I'm not mistaken, a male voice :facepalm:.

Why do you imagine that is?

If it's reclamation, why isn't it one of their voices, or another female voice, on that line?

The whole thing reeks of #PickMe dressed up as empowerment. I don't have any real problem with people being able to record whatever they want, I'm not asking for it to be banned or censored, but if it's up in discussion I'm going to call it how I see it.
It's not a male rappers voice is it? It's an older male sounding like a father or pastor, for me that's a swipe at patriarchy.
If you are calling it how you see it why are you facepalming me for calling it as I see it?

[Kizzy]

I never said it wasn't what the women want.

I said what the women want is to be the sexual object, which is fine, but it's no different to the role women play in similar songs sung by male artists. So suggesting it is "different" doesn't really work.

I don't agree they want to be an 'object' you're missing the point, my view is they are not 'his' to do what 'he' wants.
It's the opposite, not that 'he' is theirs but that 'she' is sexually dominant.

The onus is on 'I want this' in male rappers lyrics the message is 'do this'.

Can you not see the difference?

[Kizzy]

:joker:

pretty grim lyrics when you think about it

That's a very Irish response :laugh:

Squirting? Down with that kind of thing!

[Niamh.]

That's a very Irish response :laugh:

Squirting? Down with that kind of thing!

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AnnualBlushingAfricanhornbill-size_restricted.gif

Yeah, definitely only us sexually repressed Irish would think those lyrics were grim.........

[Kizzy]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AnnualBlushingAfricanhornbill-size_restricted.gif

Yeah, definitely only us sexually repressed Irish would think those lyrics were grim.........

Aw I was only joking, I had an Irish nan I never met who by all accounts was far from repressed ;)

[user104658]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AnnualBlushingAfricanhornbill-size_restricted.gif



Yeah, definitely only us sexually repressed Irish would think those lyrics were grim.........You're just not forward thinking enough to tie yourself in knots trying to justify misogyny-nouveau under the guise of woke liberalism Niamh. It's because all Irish people are actually descended from nuns, so it's not your fault. Instinct, probably. All of that internalised Catholic guilt stopping you from joining in the fun.

[Niamh.]

You're just not forward thinking enough to tie yourself in knots trying to justify misogyny-nouveau under the guise of woke liberalism Niamh. It's because all Irish people are actually descended from nuns, so it's not your fault. Instinct, probably. All of that internalised Catholic guilt stopping you from joining in the fun.

Oh yes, that must be it, silly me :laugh:

[Cherie]

I will take the repressed status, would have the same reaction to some man mopping up his load :laugh:

The song is boring and unoriginal and I wish we could move on from squatting in knickers and similar moves it’s been done to death by now

[Nicky91]

I will take the repressed status, would have the same reaction to some man mopping up his load :laugh:

The song is boring and unoriginal and I wish we could move on from squatting in knickers and similar moves it’s been done to death by now

we will get hundreds more of these, this is the music of today

[user104658]

It's no Bomfunk MC's "Freestyler", that's for sure.

[Kizzy]

You're just not forward thinking enough to tie yourself in knots trying to justify misogyny-nouveau under the guise of woke liberalism Niamh. It's because all Irish people are actually descended from nuns, so it's not your fault. Instinct, probably. All of that internalised Catholic guilt stopping you from joining in the fun.

Ok don't respond to my actual points in the thread just snipe at a joke....
New misogyny, What's this then?

[user104658]

New misogyny, What's this then?

It's a massive and complex issue but to boil part of it down as simply as possible; the increasing idea that if a female has any objections or complaints to the "woke" (I hate the term but I don't know how else to succinctly sum it up) zeitgeist, then she must be old/backwards/past it/repressed/not keeping up with the times/"a Karen". The mindset is stuffed full of subtle (and not so subtle) general misogyny.

[Kizzy]

It's a massive and complex issue but to boil part of it down as simply as possible; the increasing idea that if a female has any objections or complaints to the "woke" (I hate the term but I don't know how else to succinctly sum it up) zeitgeist, then she must be old/backwards/past it/repressed/not keeping up with the times/"a Karen". The mindset is stuffed full of subtle (and not so subtle) general misogyny.

Oh thanks so much for dumbing it down for me.. I did say at the beginning of the thread that generationally there are differing views of what expressions of female empowerment look like. However that does not mean all gen x think the same , Cherie and I are around the same age so it's silly to suggest we are in the same box here or both 'karens'.

You are the one with all the buzzwords that limit freedom of opinion here... 'woke' doesn't succinctly sum anything up, it's a made up word that only means what is projected onto it.

[Niamh.]

tbf Kizzy you did ask him what he meant by it. I definitely agree that what he's talking about is going on a lot atm especially in social media circles

[Crimson Dynamo]

i love how it can either be a materpiece of feminism or vile porn

just either or

[Marsh.]

I don't agree they want to be an 'object' you're missing the point, my view is they are not 'his' to do what 'he' wants.
It's the opposite, not that 'he' is theirs but that 'she' is sexually dominant.

The onus is on 'I want this' in male rappers lyrics the message is 'do this'.

Can you not see the difference?

Except she's singing about wanting him to dominate her. She's the submissive. Basically saying choke me with your dick. :laugh:

Which, again, is fine but it's nothing feminist.

[Marsh.]

i love how it can either be a materpiece of feminism or vile porn

just either or

I don't think it's either.

I'd stick it in the box labelled "derivative song".

[Kizzy]

tbf Kizzy you did ask him what he meant by it. I definitely agree that what he's talking about is going on a lot atm especially in social media circles

I did, how can we deal with new misogyny though when we're clearly still dealing with old misogyny, where is the definition of new misogyny? How did karens end up in there?

[Kizzy]

Except she's singing about wanting him to dominate her. She's the submissive. Basically saying choke me with your dick. :laugh:

Which, again, is fine but it's nothing feminist.

So if you sometimes like certain things in bed at times you can't be a feminist?

[Marsh.]

So if you sometimes like certain things in bed at times you can't be a feminist?

Where did I say that?

I said doing things that are routinely labelled as mysoginist is not feminist.

I pointed out she was being submissve because you said she'd flipped it on its head by being the dominant.

[user104658]

I did, how can we deal with new misogyny though when we're clearly still dealing with old misogyny
With a lot of difficulty, but we're going to have to it seems.

where is the definition of new misogyny? How did karens end up in there?

Well that's the thing isn't it. It's not so much "new", as new flavours of the same old thing, dressed up in a pretty dress and coming from the opposite direction.

[Kizzy]

Where did I say that?

I said doing things that are routinely labelled as mysoginist is not feminist.

I pointed out she was being submissve because you said she'd flipped it on its head by being the dominant.

Doing what things... Sex? that's been going for a while Marsh. Look at the Karma Sutra. Some things give greater pleasure to one more than the other.
You did say that as she sings about being submissive its fine but not feminist..why isn't it?

She flipped the whole issue for me... misogyny is about control, if you take back control it ceases to be misogyny ergo it can't possibly be misogyny any longer can it?
New or otherwise.

[Marsh.]

Doing what things... Sex? that's been going for a while Marsh. Look at the Karma Sutra. Some things give greater pleasure to one more than the other.

Erm.... no Kizzy. You've completely changed the discussion.

Nobody was discussing whether sex is or is not feminist. :facepalm:

We're discussing whether music, lyrics and videos of this nature in pop culture can be taken as feminism or misogyny, or neither.

When did what people do in the privacy of their own sex lives become the debate? We're discussing music she has put out onto a public stage, not what she likes doing with her boyfriend.


You did say that as she sings about being submissive its fine but not feminist..why isn't it?

She flipped the whole issue for me... misogyny is about control, if you take back control it ceases to be misogyny ergo it can't possibly be misogyny any longer can it?
New or otherwise.

I didn't say being submissive makes it not feminist. I responded to a point you made about her taking back control and being the dominant. All I said was the lyrics suggest she's submitting herself to the man.

Saying it ceases to be misogyny because the woman is objectifying herself is just not true. Women can be misogynistic too.

[user104658]

2020 is me and Marsh being TiBB's biggest feminists and Kizzy being a woman-hating agent of the nu patriarchy.

[Kizzy]

2020 is me and Marsh being TiBB's biggest feminists and Kizzy being a woman-hating agent of the nu patriarchy.

Go figure lol!!

[Kizzy]

Erm.... no Kizzy. You've completely changed the discussion.

Nobody was discussing whether sex is or is not feminist. :facepalm:

We're discussing whether music, lyrics and videos of this nature in pop culture can be taken as feminism or misogyny, or neither.

When did what people do in the privacy of their own sex lives become the debate? We're discussing music she has put out onto a public stage, not what she likes doing with her boyfriend.



I didn't say being submissive makes it not feminist. I responded to a point you made about her taking back control and being the dominant. All I said was the lyrics suggest she's submitting herself to the man.

Saying it ceases to be misogyny because the woman is objectifying herself is just not true. Women can be misogynistic too.
Look at you facepalming me telling me what you can and acan't discuss here. .. bahahaha!

[Marsh.]

Look at you facepalming me telling me what you can and acan't discuss here. .. bahahaha!

Erm... telling you what you can and can't discuss? Where? I corrected you on you completely misrepresenting a point I made.

Seems like you got uppity at the emoji and didn't actually read anything at all.

Oh well.

[Kizzy]

I didn't say it wasn't misogyny because she objectified herself. I said it wasn't because she had took back control.

Stop misrepresenting me.

[Marsh.]

If you're not going to bother to read what was written, don't bother to reply.

[Ammi]

...this is another interesting article, I think...I’ll just leave it here for anyone’s read, as you wish...



WAP: the summer smash hit that exposed the fear of sexually liberated black women

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/wap-summer-smash-hit-exposed-112316928.html

[user104658]

...this is another interesting article, I think...I’ll just leave it here for anyone’s read, as you wish...







WAP: the summer smash hit that exposed the fear of sexually liberated black women



https://uk.yahoo.com/news/wap-summer-smash-hit-exposed-112316928.htmlI feel like this was written by a fan of the attists/music (openly within the first few sentences) and from that point neutrality goes out the window. It then cherry-picks which criticisms to counter (the ones that express outrage at the overt sexuality) and use those specific criticisms to create a "critic strawman" to argue against in a blinkered way, making massive assumptions along the way. They've either allowed their bias to stop them from seeing that there are multiple criticisms that have absolutely nothing to do with "not liking women talking about sex" OR they have consciously decided to ignore the parts of the argument that they can't easily shoo away with that particular angle. Neither makes for a very good article. I'd be more interested in the academic angle from observers who are not already fans of the genre or the artist. Not people who DISlike the genre of course, that would be just as biased, but anything that lacks sociological neutrality on this isn't really worth reading, just a lot of signalling and parroting.

[Kizzy]

If you're not going to bother to read what was written, don't bother to reply.

I read it, I just don't agree with it. Any of it.

[Kizzy]

...this is another interesting article, I think...I’ll just leave it here for anyone’s read, as you wish...



WAP: the summer smash hit that exposed the fear of sexually liberated black women

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/wap-summer-smash-hit-exposed-112316928.html
Excellent article Ammi thanks, agree with all of that.

[user104658]

Excellent article Ammi thanks, agree with all of that.Given that all you've done in this thread is exactly what I described above, that's unsurprising :hehe:

[Kizzy]

I feel like this was written by a fan of the attists/music (openly within the first few sentences) and from that point neutrality goes out the window. It then cherry-picks which criticisms to counter (the ones that express outrage at the overt sexuality) and use those specific criticisms to create a "critic strawman" to argue against in a blinkered way, making massive assumptions along the way. They've either allowed their bias to stop them from seeing that there are multiple criticisms that have absolutely nothing to do with "not liking women talking about sex" OR they have consciously decided to ignore the parts of the argument that they can't easily shoo away with that particular angle. Neither makes for a very good article. I'd be more interested in the academic angle from observers who are not already fans of the genre or the artist. Not people who DISlike the genre of course, that would be just as biased, but anything that lacks sociological neutrality on this isn't really worth reading, just a lot of signalling and parroting.
Your opinion is so much more unbiased than this academic article?..
Look at your use of language, she is cherry picking/biased/blinkered/ assumptive/

You can only comment on anything if you are neutral.. When did that become a thing, do film critics refuse to critique films or actors they like or admire? No of course they don't.

You've taken exception to this comprehensive peice as it flies in the face of your armchair sociologist perspective. So instead of validating anything she's said as having any merit, youve dismissed her as a fangirl.

[Kizzy]

Given that all you've done in this thread is exactly what I described above, that's unsurprising :hehe:

Given that all you've done is snipe at my points in this thread this is unsurprising.

[user104658]

Your opinion is so much more unbiased than thus academic article?..

Look at your use of language, she is cherry picking/biased/blinkered/ assumptive/



You can only comment on anything if you are neutral.. When did that become a thing, do film critics refuse to critique films or actors they like or admire? No of course they don't.



You've taken exception to this comprehensive peice as it flies in the face of your armchair sociologist perspective. So instead of validating anything she's said as having any merit, youve dismissed her as a fangirl.

She admitted openly to being a fan girl, and I didn't say she "can't comment"? I said I'd need something a bit more neutral for me, personally, to take it seriously or find it interesting. A fan defending something that they are already pre-inclined to defend isn't interesting. It might be to you, that's fine also, but I'm speaking for myself here.

[Kizzy]

She admitted openly to being a fan girl, and I didn't say she "can't comment"? I said I'd need something a bit more neutral for me, personally, to take it seriously or find it interesting. A fan defending something that they are already pre-inclined to defend isn't interesting. It might be to you, that's fine also, but I'm speaking for myself here.

Where?... where does it specifically say she is a fan?

You projected that as an excuse to render her biased. Although it's made clear this is her field of academic expertise. .. Speaking for myself here that does not reflect well on you.

[user104658]

Where?... where does it specifically say she is a fan?



You projected that as an excuse to render her biased. Although it's made clear this is her field of academic expertise. .. Speaking for myself here that does not reflect well on you.She opens the article by referring to the song as "the summer smash hit we all needed" and follows with;

"Complete with sexy costumes, fantastical set pieces, exotic animals, and updo hairstyles reminiscent of the very best of the 1990s, the WAP video is nothing short of a visual feast."

She is a fan. It's called reading between the lines, Kizzy.

She then goes on to make two major claims

1) That the only people criticising it are men

2) That the only critique is against female sexual empowerment and the critics are all coming from that angle.


Both claims are demonstrably false.

I'm not sure what else there is to say.

[Ammi]

...just to say, this is the original article...

https://theconversation.com/wap-the-summer-smash-hit-that-exposed-the-fear-of-sexually-liberated-black-women-144815


...and this is just a very little about the author, but she’s googleable for any more information...

https://theconversation.com/profiles/michell-chresfield-1147916


...and this disclosure statement for that article, which I guess meant articles have....

Michell Chresfield does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.



...obviously I don’t know her music taste and whether she’s a fan of the ladies particularly etc...but I do find her views of interest to read as well as other views...because all create balance and ‘Her research interests include cultural and intellectual history, the history of science and medicine, and the history of racial formation and identity making in twentieth century America’ ...it doesn’t lean to me like a fan piece of writing...but, we all have ‘leanings’ on many things anyway in life because of our own life experiences etc and generally because of how our own thought processes tend to be...and that’s not to be dismissed either...(...so long as it isn’t based on gossip media, type thing...)....I think it’s an interesting piece because she’s looking at the ‘black female’ perspective as well ...

[Ammi]

...anyways, that was my thoughts...:laugh:...


...My interpretation of ‘the summer smash hit we all needed‘ was more that it’s been a tough year for us all and this was intended as a bit lightness and fun that has been needed...because we hadn’t really had a ‘sound of summer’ this year in the way that it’s tended to be for other years pre COVID...but yeah, that’s my own leaning in thoughts and my perspective, rather than her being a fan...

[Marsh.]

I read it, I just don't agree with it. Any of it.

That's fine. Should've maybe responded with that to begin with instead of the pathetic post that was inventing what I said, instead of addressing what I actually said.

Still, got there in the end.

[Kizzy]

She opens the article by referring to the song as "the summer smash hit we all needed" and follows with;

"Complete with sexy costumes, fantastical set pieces, exotic animals, and updo hairstyles reminiscent of the very best of the 1990s, the WAP video is nothing short of a visual feast."

She is a fan. It's called reading between the lines, Kizzy.

She then goes on to make two major claims

1) That the only people criticising it are men

2) That the only critique is against female sexual empowerment and the critics are all coming from that angle.


Both claims are demonstrably false.

I'm not sure what else there is to say.

That is a very generalised 'we' .. it is a visual feast. Neither of those terms says I am a fan.

It's not called reading between the lines it's called projecting a narrative that makes your dismissive opinion of this academic justified in your mind.

1. There is reference to men critiquing the song, nowhere does it say only men do. Again that's your projection.

2. The onus is not on her to address EVERY critique and she does not state that female empowerment it the only issue worthy of addressing.

I can think of something to say. There is no pressure on her to provide a thesis on WAP, she's just giving her expert opinion on one aspect and I happen to agree with it. Whatever else it is that you would like to have been discussed here, you may be able to get some insight from another source..

[Kizzy]

That's fine. Should've maybe responded with that to begin with instead of the pathetic post that was inventing what I said, instead of addressing what I actually said.

Still, got there in the end.

I can respond as I see fit to, so can you as this rude dismissive post proves.

[Marsh.]

I can respond as I see fit to, so can you as this rude dismissive post proves.

Nope, you don't get to re-invent what I said to turn it into a completely unrelated discussion. You do it all the time, just stop.

[Kizzy]

Nope, you don't get to re-invent what I said to turn it into a completely unrelated discussion. You do it all the time, just stop.

I get to do what I like, the posts are there to be read. All my comments relate to the discussion and as per most of yours relate to me.

[Marsh.]

I get to do what I like, the posts are there to be read. All my comments relate to the discussion and as per most of yours relate to me.

No, Kizzy. As usual you took someone disagreeing with you as a personal attack, completely twisted my post and threw the toys out of the pram. Sit down.

You don't get to invent things, mock other posters and then act aggrieved when the response isn't so polite.

[Kizzy]

No, Kizzy. As usual you took someone disagreeing with you as a personal attack, completely twisted my post and threw the toys out of the pram. Sit down.

You don't get to invent things, mock other posters and then act aggrieved when the response isn't so polite.

And here you are doing it again, I am sat down thanks.

[Marsh.]

And here you are doing it again, I am sat down thanks.

No, you don't get to be rude and make it everyone else's issue when it's yours.

Goodnight, Kizzy.

[Strictly Jake]

Dont know what its classed as....but its crap....and when i played spotify hot hits before when the kids were with me and I hadnt ever heard it and it came on it was a very awkward moment!

[Niamh.]

Dont know what its classed as....but its crap....and when i played spotify hot hits before when the kids were with me and I hadnt ever heard it and it came on it was a very awkward moment!Yeah, pretty much nailed it Jake

*I would think the same about a male artist with similar lyrics

[Marsh.]

Yeah, even apart from the subject matter it's a song everyone's heard 100 times before. :laugh:

[user104658]

Well yes I was also creased at, in that article posted, the attempt at a serious critical analysis of the lyric "certified freak, seven days a week". It veers into satire territory there but I don't think the author IS joking.

But I've tried to stay away from that aspect as I've been accused of being a "music snob" in the past :joker:.

But really. Really.

[Kizzy]

No, you don't get to be rude and make it everyone else's issue when it's yours.

Goodnight, Kizzy.

Haven't been rude.. I've just had my say as per. If you don't like it that's your issue.

[Kizzy]

Dont know what its classed as....but its crap....and when i played spotify hot hits before when the kids were with me and I hadnt ever heard it and it came on it was a very awkward moment!

Might want to check your parental controls then. Not all music is for kids.

[Marsh.]

Haven't been rude.

Then I suggest you work on your self awareness.

[Kizzy]

Then I suggest you work on your self awareness.

Another snipe?... Have you forgotten this thread isn't about me?

[Marsh.]

Might want to check your parental controls then. Not all music is for kids.

Another unrelated personal comment.

[Ammi]

...I’m starting to read the title as ...Feminist Masterpiece Or Russell Brand?....

[Marsh.]

...I’m starting to read the title as ...Feminist Masterpiece Or Russell Brand?....

BOTH! :amazed:

[Kizzy]

Another unrelated personal comment.

Yet another snipe at my view, rap is rarely child friendly why would this be any different?

[Strictly Jake]

Yet another snipe at my view, rap is rarely child friendly why would this be any different?

I wasnt listening to rap though i hate it. I was listening to a generic spotify playlist of new songs and it came on

[Kizzy]

I wasnt listening to rap though i hate it. I was listening to a generic spotify playlist of new songs and it came on

Spotify is for 18+, you can apply filters if listening at home just as you would normally censor what's played in front of kids.

Filtering explicit content

Tap Home .Tap Settings .Tap Explicit Content.Switch Allow Explicit Content off (gray).Tracks marked as explicit now appear grayed out. It's not possible to play them and they are skipped over by the playe

[Marsh.]

Yet another snipe at my view, rap is rarely child friendly why would this be any different?

I'm sure Jake is well aware of what is and isn't suitable for his own children without your patronising judgement.

[Kizzy]

I'm sure Jake is well aware of what is and isn't suitable for his own children without your patronising judgement.

And I'm sure Jake can answer for himself, it's not patronising. This song isn't suitable for anyone's children not just jakes, but you can limit what is played easily. Nothing wrong with suggesting that is there?

[Marsh.]

There was no suggestion. It was a patronising "not all music is for kids" as though he doesn't know that for himself.

[Kizzy]

There was no suggestion. It was a patronising "not all music is for kids" as though he doesn't know that for himself.

That's you projecting your negativity into my post. It's a fact, all music is not for kids. You can follow me around like a raincloud of doom all day if you like but it is getting a bit boring.

[Marsh.]

That's you projecting your negativity into my post. It's a fact, all music is not for kids. You can follow me around like a raincloud of doom all day if you like but it is getting a bit boring.

Yes, you posting in a public forum is following you around. Not at all a hysterical comment.

[Kizzy]

Yes, you posting in a public forum is following you around. Not at all a hysterical comment.

I found your indignance around my response to Jake hysterical too but ok, it is a public forum and you had your say. I've explained why I suggested Jake apply some controls to spotify so there shouldn't be any further issue.

[user104658]

It's a fact, all music is not for kids.

:worry:

[Marsh.]

:joker:

[Kizzy]

Tag teaming now? Cute.

[Tom4784]

Tag teaming? Is this the WWE?

[Kizzy]

Tag teaming? Is this the WWE?

It feels like it :worry:

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://media2.foxnews.com/BrightCove/694940094001/2019/02/20/694940094001_6004530698001_6004537368001-vs.jpg

[Kizzy]

And the thread is successfully derailed, well done lads!

[Kizzy]

Back to the topic, here is another interesting article.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/cardi-b-wap-lyrics-black-american-women-sexual-pleasure-583095

[Marsh.]

WAP isn't the first song in which the artist uses explicit language to talk about sex or drugs. Who knew?

[Kizzy]

Nobody said it was...That's not the discussion here is it?

[user104658]

Back to the topic, here is another interesting article.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/cardi-b-wap-lyrics-black-american-women-sexual-pleasure-583095

WAP isn't the first song in which the artist uses explicit language to talk about sex or drugs. Who knew?


Nobody said it was...That's not the discussion here is it?

LIES AND ABSOLUTE SLANDER, Cardi B and pals are musical trailblazers going places never thought possible, bravely fighting for women's right to sexual expression, and how DARE you claim their music is derivative trash Kizzy. How dare you. Do you know how much thought goes into successfully rhyming the word "week" with the word "weak"? A lot. More than anyone could have done before but now here you are telling brutal lies about Cardi copying others. I can't believe it. Your internalised misogyny clearly knows no bounds :fist:

[Marsh.]

Nobody said it was...That's not the discussion here is it?

I'm responding to the contents of the article.

Move along.

[Kizzy]

LIES AND ABSOLUTE SLANDER, Cardi B and pals are musical trailblazers going places never thought possible, bravely fighting for women's right to sexual expression, and how DARE you claim their music is derivative trash Kizzy. How dare you. Do you know how much thought goes into successfully rhyming the word "week" with the word "weak"? A lot. More than anyone could have done before but now here you are telling brutal lies about Cardi copying others. I can't believe it. Your internalised misogyny clearly knows no bounds :fist:
Nothing if note to say on the article ok.

[Kizzy]

I'm responding to the contents of the article.

Move along.

The part where it says women like sex and sometimes sing about it? Yes we have moved along then.

[Marsh.]

The part where it says women like sex and sometimes sing about it?

You needed an article to tell you that? Explains why you're re-writing everyone else's words to be something they never said.

[Kizzy]

You needed an article to tell you that? Explains why you're re-writing everyone else's words to be something they never said.

Well I didn't no.. I've said that all the way through the thread if you stopped sniping long enough to notice.

[Marsh.]

Well I didn't no.. I've said that all the way through the thread if you stopped sniping long enough to notice.

Said what? Women like sex?

That's not really the debate nor what my other post relating to the article was talking about.

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

[user104658]

That's the inherent strawman of this entire debate all across the internet though; the false claim that anyone who doesn't like or takes issue with the song/lyrics either thinks women don't enjoy sex, or that they shouldn't enjoy sex, or that they shouldn't express an enjoyment of sex. When of course, obviously, very few people are actually saying that but hey it's easier to pretend than to actually discuss the criticisms that are raised, I suppose.

[Marsh.]

That's the inherent strawman of this entire debate all across the internet though; the false claim that anyone who doesn't like or takes issue with the song/lyrics either thinks women don't enjoy sex, or that they shouldn't enjoy sex, or that they shouldn't express an enjoyment of sex. When of course, obviously, very few people are actually saying that but hey it's easier to pretend than to actually discuss the criticisms that are raised, I suppose.

Spot on.

[Kizzy]

Said what? Women like sex?

That's not really the debate nor what my other post relating to the article was talking about.

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

It's what my opinion of what wap is, as opposed to Brands comparison to porn. Which if you take the focus away from yourself for a second you will see is what the thread is really about.

[Kizzy]

That's the inherent strawman of this entire debate all across the internet though; the false claim that anyone who doesn't like or takes issue with the song/lyrics either thinks women don't enjoy sex, or that they shouldn't enjoy sex, or that they shouldn't express an enjoyment of sex. When of course, obviously, very few people are actually saying that but hey it's easier to pretend than to actually discuss the criticisms that are raised, I suppose.
And it isn't a strawman that you have just projected that into the conversation...where's the inference that anyone has suggested that?

Personally I clearly reacted to your 'new misogyny' comparison and the comparisons to porn made by Russell Brand.

[Marsh.]

It's what my opinion of what wap is, as opposed to Brands comparison to porn. Which if you take the focus away from yourself for a second you will see is what the thread is really about.

I commented on the article. YOU quoted me and made it all about your opinion, which had no relevance to what I was picking out of the article. Again, work on your self awareness.

Bleat on about whatever you want to, but don't pretend it relates to an argument anyone has actually made because they haven't.

[user104658]

And it isn't a strawman that you have just projected that into the conversation...where's the inference that anyone has suggested that?

Personally I clearly reacted to your 'new misogyny' comparison and the comparisons to porn made by Russell Brand.

‘WAP’ Is Making People Uncomfortable Because It’s About Female Pleasure...


Unless you’re living under a rock that can’t connect to Spotify, you’ve likely heard the Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion song “WAP,” or at least the discussion around it. It’s boastful and explicit in a way that’s consistent with a lot of rap music. But what’s made it so huge immediately following its release, and what opens it up to criticism from fearful men of all political inclinations, is how candid and explicit it is about female desire.

And the jist of every other article about WAP that's been posted to the thread :think:.

[Kizzy]

I commented on the article. YOU quoted me and made it all about your opinion, which had no relevance to what I was picking out of the article. Again, work on your self awareness.

Bleat on about whatever you want to, but don't pretend it relates to an argument anyone has actually made because they haven't.

I gave my opinion on the thread and within around ten minutes you had quoted me to challenge me on my view..

You can hear yourself getting increasing more offensive every time you respond to me can't you?

[Marsh.]

I gave my opinion on the thread and within around ten minutes you had quoted me to challenge me on my view..

That was resolved a while ago Kizzy. You quoted me when I commented on the article, responding to my opinion with a response that had nothing to do with it. Unless you believe my comment was directed at you? In which case, it wasn't.


You can hear yourself getting increasing more offensive every time you respond to me can't you?

You expected to come into a thread, be rude and personal and get politeness in return?

[Kizzy]

And the jist of every other article about WAP that's been posted to the thread :think:.

So you read into that quote that because that's what the songs about it means all those that are 'uncomfortable' with a song about female pleasure its because the person doesnt think women shouldn't enjoy/ sing about sex? That's a bit of a reach.

I took it to mean they were uncomfortable that it couldn't be pigeon holed as easy as some. So they render it tittilation or new misogyny.

[Kizzy]

That was resolved a while ago Kizzy. You quoted me when I commented on the article, responding to my opinion with a response that had nothing to do with it. Unless you believe my comment was directed at you? In which case, it wasn't.



You expected to come into a thread, be rude and personal and get politeness in return?

Oh right that was resolved .. but you're still aggrieved by something? Tell me specifically why you are so affronted and I'll try to help.

Are you referring to when I told you to calm down? I called myself a boomer in that post ..Sometimes you just have to stop taking yourself so seriously.

[Marsh.]

Oh right that was resolved .. but you're still aggrieved by something? Tell me specifically why you are so affronted and I'll try to help.

Are you referring to when I told you to calm down? I called myself a boomer in that post ..Sometimes you just have to stop taking yourself so seriously.

Kizzy I made a comment about an article posted in the thread and now you keep posting asking me why I am "following you" or telling me I am arguing a point I am not.

Your reading skills are absolutely appalling based on all of these replies. YOU started this exchange over a post that was not directed at you to start with, in which you stated I'd made a comment I had not.

Move along.

[Niamh.]

Back on topic please (the topic isn't Kizzy and Marsh)

[Marsh.]

Thank you Niamh. :hee:

[Kizzy]

Kizzy I made a comment about an article posted in the thread and now you keep posting asking me why I am "following you" or telling me I am arguing a point I am not.

Your reading skills are absolutely appalling based on all of these replies. YOU started this exchange over a post that was not directed at you to start with, in which you stated I'd made a comment I had not.

Move along.

I wanted to know how I have misrepresented you here so I can respond.
It's unfair to just mock my reading skills and not explain what it is I've misinterpreted parts of your post.
Not going to risk derailing the thread further, I'm glad too that Niamh intervened.

[GoldHeart]

I actually saw that Russell Brand clip wtf :facepalm::skull: , he was off his head on smack aswell .