"Biden’s trans rights agenda is bad news for women and girls" - Debbie Hayton

[Oliver_W]

Joe Biden has wasted little time grabbing rights from women and girls across America. On day one, he signed an Executive Order on 'Preventing and Combating Discrimination on the Basis of Gender Identity or Sexual Orientation'. This is being hailed as a pivotal moment for transgender rights. But it's nothing of the sort.

The mention of 'Gender Identity' alone is enough to raise the alarm about the consequences of this proposal. Gender identity might be a popular concept right now, but it isn't even clear what it means. Put simply, it's a concept which refers to a person's individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth. All too often, though, this rather circular definition is underpinned by sexist stereotypes involving dress, speech, and mannerisms.

Biden will be hailed as 'progressive' for this initiative, but don't be fooled: gender identity is about a feeling that some people claim to possess. And when this feeling displaces biological sex as a means of dividing society we should all worry. After all, if we ignore sex, we ignore sexism.

Worryingly, too, this order could sweep away girls' sex-based rights. The first paragraph tells us this:

'Children should be able to learn without worrying about whether they will be denied access to the restroom, the locker room, or school sports.'

Let’s be clear about what this means in reality: boys who identify as girls could soon be able to use girls' locker rooms, even if girls using those facilities feel uncomfortable about that. And in school sports, boys who identify as girls could soon be competing alongside girls, despite often having physical advantages, such as being stronger or taller than their peers.

This isn't simply my interpretation of Biden's order. The order cites a Supreme Court ruling – Bostock v Clayton County – to argue that sex discrimination laws covers discrimination on the basis of gender identity. Within 100 days, plans will need to be drawn up to ensure that boys who identify as girls are not discriminated against on the basis of their gender identity.

You can see where this is going. Abigail Shrier, author of Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters, was clinical in her analysis:

'A new glass ceiling was just placed over girls.'

She's right. And there is a good reason why 'Biden Erased Women' is now trending on Twitter. The very laws that were established to protect the rights of girls to single sex toilets, changing rooms and sports could soon be turned upside down by presidential decree. Legislation that was intended to protect the rights of girls to single-sex provision could now make single-sex services impossible. Assuming, that is, you agree with me that sex is determined by our biology and not by feelings in our heads, you'll share in my view that this is bad news. If you disagree with me, then you may well think I am an appalling transphobic bigot.

This is not about me, however; it is about girls in America. If they want to avoid being labelled as transphobic – or worse – they will be expected to make room for boys who identify as girls. And not just in the locker room. Scholarships, bursaries, protected places in politics and public life: everything is up for grabs.

If I am charitable, I would say that Biden is trying to be kind to transgender people – like me – who do face discrimination simply because we do not conform to the expectations placed on our sex. The tragedy is that his naivety – that men and boys will not take advantage – has eclipsed the work that needs to be done, and is being done.

On Biden's first day as president, White House press secretary Jen Psaki announced that Biden will soon reverse the ban on transgender people serving openly in the military. Good. But protecting transgender people from discrimination does not require rights to be removed from others. That is where Biden’s Executive Order goes wrong. Indeed the resentment that is already brewing among women – and rightly so – eats into the acceptance that transgender people have hitherto enjoyed. If Biden is not careful he will end up pleasing nobody.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/biden-s-trans-rights-agenda-is-bad-news-for-women


Thoughts?

I don't think people generally want their teen daughters sharing female spaces with boys, even if the boys do identify as girls...

Sex based rights are important, including the rights to female only spaces; why couldn't Biden help out transwomen without negatively affecting women.

[UserSince2005]

Hes a monster.

[Oliver_W]

Hes a monster.

I wouldn't go that far, it probably came from a good, if misjudged place.

[Niamh.]

I wouldn't go that far, it probably came from a good, if misjudged place.

I agree. Allowing biological males compete against biological females in sports competing for college places for example is going to expose the pitfalls with this and the ways in which it can be abused. I'm sure it's all come from a good place and a want to be inclusive but you don't want to end up excluding biological girls/women in the process either

[Beso]

I wouldn't go that far, it probably came from a good, if misjudged place.

Hes a ****ing idiot then:shrug:

[Jessica.]

Trans women are women, they deserve to be treated the same as other women no matter what.

[Marsh.]

Tbf there's a lot of "COULD soon be".

[Jessica.]

Also why is the disgust always towards trans women? Do trans men not make you all feel fragile either?

[Niamh.]

Trans women are women, they deserve to be treated the same as other women no matter what.

Spouting off a catch phrase isn't reality though, there are biological advantages males have over females, that's the whole reason sport was separated by sex in the first place so how is it fair on biological girls/women to change that separation now to gender separation instead of sex? nobody has a gender advantage when it comes to sport

[Scarlett.]

-Me being dumb-

[Niamh.]

Also why is the disgust always towards trans women? Do trans men not make you all feel fragile either?

It's not disgust to point out a biological reality. Again when it comes to sport it's to do with transwomen because they're the ones with the biological advantage. I've not seen a transman beat any male sports records yet, there's been quite a few women's records beaten so far though by transwomen, why do you think that is?

[Marsh.]

Also why is the disgust always towards trans women? Do trans men not make you all feel fragile either?

Who has shown disgust? No one.

[Scarlett.]

-Me being dumb-

[Niamh.]

This is Big Terfs back at it again

I'm a woman, I have a right to speak up about women's rights without being insulted. Do you disagree with the point I made? If so what have I said that is incorrect?

[Scarlett.]

-Me being dumb-

[Marsh.]

Terfs are toxic and this forum is full of them and I'm sick of biting my toungue you can all go **** yourselves

If you can't actually respond to anything Niamh said it's probably best to say nothing.

[Scarlett.]

-Me being dumb-

[Marsh.]

I dont ****ing care, terf

:joker:

[Niamh.]

I dont ****ing care, terf

lovely

[UserSince2005]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/55/09/78/5509785be92b9823da16a6f50a19490d.gif

[Vicky.]

It comes from a good place, however there is no thought whatsoever about female people. In sports particularly. There is a lot of evidence that its unfair, yet some still push for it (see Stonewall still pushing for transwomen in womens rugby, in the face of the evidence that shows this is very dangerous aswell as unfair). Because..well women don't matter seemingly. Won't post anymore in this as know how these threads go, but Debbie Hayton..I tend to agree with on most things. She is also a transwoman, but one who acknowledges biological reality and thinks about women aswell as trans people instead of putting women at the back of the line for everything. The lack of consideration for women during this whole 'trans rights' thing is vile tbh. Yet women are the bigoted ones for saying they should be bloody considered while their rights and protections are stripped away. Its possible to advance trans rights without trampling over womens rights. There are many ways to do this. Just activists seem to not want to do that, much easier to just threaten women into silence and take over. Activists seem the issue in this tbh, as actual transsexual people tend to be decent people who think about all, such as Debbie Hayton. Such transsexual people, get as much grief and threats from activists as women who dare to speak up do!

Tbh, these days I don't even take 'terf' as an insult. Because its thrown at anyone who gives any thought to biological women. Even if they also support trans people (or transwomen, that should be. Given transmen are kind of invivisble in this. Which is odd as if that followed the usual pattern, transmen activists would be the ones shouting over women and transwomen.)...just the fact they think about women is horrendous and bigoted.

[Scarlett.]

-Me being dumb-

[user104658]

Tbf there's a lot of "COULD soon be".Hmm. I sort of see this... I honestly don't think, if women's sports got to the point where the top tiers were entirely dominated by transwomen, or it was obvious that things like sports scholarships were being hoovered up by transwomen, that it would continue forever. I think if it happened, action would be taken to stop it happening. They would stuff the genie back in the bottle.

But that would come with a whooole range of other problems.

[Marsh.]

How about shut the **** up

If this is your only response to Niamh's argument it only makes her seem more right.

An emotional response instead of a logical one doesn't convince anyone.

[Marsh.]

Almost as lovely as having your existence questioned every ****ing day, and then the same people who question your existence claim they're being silenced

Niamh hasn't questioned your existence. She's discussing actual examples where women and transwomen ARE different.

Acting like a child about it doesn't change this.

[Scarlett.]

-Me being dumb-

[Josy]

This was what a few of us tried to express in another thread, the concerns regarding womens rights but you risk being labelled a terf the minute you speak out about it.

[Josy]

I dont ****ing care, terfWow.

[Oliver_W]

Given transmen are kind of invivisble in this. Which is odd as if that followed the usual pattern, transmen activists would be the ones shouting over women and transwomen.)...

Male socialisation versus female socialisation...

[UserSince2005]

Trans women are women it is that simple. Don't over think it.

[Marsh.]

Whatever

Whatever, yeah, throwing TERF around anytime anyone questions anything remotely to do with gender issues causes a LOT MORE problems than anything Niamh said.

Maybe show an iota of respect for women if you want the same returned to you.

[Niamh.]

Almost as lovely as having your existence questioned every ****ing day, and then the same people who question your existence claim they're being silenced

I have only ever spoken about how women's rights are being affected, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that, that does concern me. And can i just say I was the only one in this thread being told to shut the **** up

[Scarlett.]

-Me being dumb-

[Oliver_W]

This was what a few of us tried to express in another thread, the concerns regarding womens rights but you risk being labelled a terf the minute you speak out about it.

1352272184400519169

I don't be necessarily agree with the part about "reducing women to a fantasy", whatever that means. But women standing up for female rights being slapped down and labelled with a slur? Spot on.

[user104658]

Almost as lovely as having your existence questioned every ****ing day, and then the same people who question your existence claim they're being silencedI genuinely understand why you'd be frustrated with this issue and how hard it can be to engage properly on a topic where there's heavy emotional investment... But honestly, all I can do here is echo what I've said to many people on many different topic on this forum;

If you can engage in an actual debate - even an angry one - then a debates forum is not the place to be. "I don't want anyone to talk about this because I find it offensive" just isn't a good enough reason for anyone to avoid discussion of any issue...

If you have a counter argument or a point to make then make it, if you can't engage without baseless name calling (and hey... I don't personally even care about name calling... Just back it with an argument at least) then don't engage at all... And when it comes right down to it... If you find a topic too painful to see being discussed, then steer clear of the topic. Because no one gets to decide what other people can or can't discuss.

[Scarlett.]

I genuinely understand why you'd be frustrated with this issue and how hard it can be to engage properly on a topic where there's heavy emotional investment... But honestly, all I can do here is echo what I've said to many people on many different topic on this forum;

If you can engage in an actual debate - even an angry one - then a debates forum is not the place to be. "I don't want anyone to talk about this because I find it offensive" just isn't a good enough reason for anyone to avoid discussion of any issue...

If you have a counter argument or a point to make then make it, if you can't engage without baseless name calling (and hey... I don't personally even care about name calling... Just back it with an argument at least) then don't engage at all... And when it comes right down to it... If you find a topic too painful to see being discussed, then steer clear of the topic. Because no one gets to decide what other people can or can't discuss.


Maybe you're right, I am sorry Niamh, for calling you a terf, and for getting angry at you Marsh

The anger hasnt stemmed from you but from real life, I am sorry for my outburst, legitimately and ban me if you must. The anger has stemmed from people legitimately putting trans people down and I recognise that that is not what you are doing, I regret saying what I did.

[Cherie]

I dont ****ing care, terf

Actually disgusting, Niamh has been very polite and made some valid points and your response is to abuse her?

Edit, I can see you have apologised now, lets leave it there.

[Marsh.]

Maybe you're right, I am sorry Niamh, for calling you a terf, and for getting angry at you Marsh

The anger hasnt stemmed from you but from real life, I am sorry for my outburst, legitimately and ban me if you must. The anger has stemmed from people legitimately putting trans people down and I recognise that that is not what you are doing, I regret saying what I did.

No worries.

[Novo]

great this forum at times, forgot what i was missing :joker: :joker:

[Black Dagger]

#WeStandWithScarlett x

[Niamh.]

Maybe you're right, I am sorry Niamh, for calling you a terf, and for getting angry at you Marsh

The anger hasnt stemmed from you but from real life, I am sorry for my outburst, legitimately and ban me if you must. The anger has stemmed from people legitimately putting trans people down and I recognise that that is not what you are doing, I regret saying what I did.

I know that and I know it's not your usual form, I'm really not trying to be nasty either, I can assure you that the only place I ever come from on this topic is a women's rights angle, I've always been pretty vocal on women's rights issues (and not just when it concerns trans rights either) I would love a solution where everyone is happy but some of the issues (like sport) I just can't see how you can make it fair on biological women to allow transwomen compete against them, reducing testosterone just isn't enough

[Daniel.]

Scarlett is right though, forum is full of gross transphobia.

[Oliver_W]

Scarlett is right though, forum is full of gross transphobia.
Where?

[Josy]

Scarlett is right though, forum is full of gross transphobia.There is not one transphobic comment been posted in this thread so how about actually adding to the debate instead of looking for a reaction.

[GoldHeart]

Scarlett is right though, forum is full of gross transphobia.

This thread has had more abuse thrown at women but ok whatever:bored:

[user104658]

I know that and I know it's not your usual form, I'm really not trying to be nasty either, I can assure you that the only place I ever come from on this topic is a women's rights angle, I've always been pretty vocal on women's rights issues (and not just when it concerns trans rights either) I would love a solution where everyone is happy but some of the issues (like sport) I just can't see how you can make it fair on biological women to allow transwomen compete against them, reducing testosterone just isn't enoughLargely my stance is that it would be great if there were solutions that worked for everyone, and I feel that there MUST be solutions that at least come close, but that they are likely not simple at all and will take a lot of figuring out and it's basically impossible for that work to be done so long as its the battleground that it is right now. Though I think it's understandable for people to want it to be "Easy. Simple. Just accept this; ________. Done" on a myriad of issues, it's pretty much human nature. Sadly there's rarely any such thing as a simple answer.

[Daniel.]

Where?

This thread has had more abuse thrown at women but ok whatever:bored:

There is not one transphobic comment been posted in this thread so how about actually adding to the debate instead of looking for a reaction.

No matter how thinly veiled, it's still transphobia.

And, I'm guessing no one saw Arista's comment if they want proof

[Marsh.]

If I'm honest, this is the post that got me really angry

Oh arista's baiting has long gone ignored I'll give you that.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If I'm honest, this is the post that got me really angry

The former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has raised concerns over the ongoing “toxic” debate around transgender rights in the UK and its long-term impact on the country.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-rights-toxic-debate-equality-human-rights-david-isaac-a9661801.html


Its a common opinion if you google it

[user104658]

If I'm honest, this is the post that got me really angryAhh come on it was posted by arista. He exists in a pocket universe where there are no moderation rules at all. It's the only explanation I've been able to come up with in 7.5 years.

[Nicky91]

The former chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) has raised concerns over the ongoing “toxic” debate around transgender rights in the UK and its long-term impact on the country.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/transgender-rights-toxic-debate-equality-human-rights-david-isaac-a9661801.html


Its a common opinion if you google it

no wonder that person is the former chair of that commission then


long-term impact on the country? :umm2: being transphobic just like homophobia is a disease, that is more a problem for the UK

and this calls itself ''equality, human rights commission'' :skull:

[GoldHeart]

If I'm honest, this is the post that got me really angry

Then you should of asked them what they meant , this is a sensitive complicated issue . And throwing insults around without a proper debate doesn't solve anything.

[Oliver_W]

If I'm honest, this is the post that got me really angry

I'm guessing no one saw Arista's comment if they want proof

Oh arista's baiting has long gone ignored I'll give you that.

My brain sometimes just automatically disregards his posts tbh so it didn't occur to me someone would take it seriously :joker:

[Beso]

Terfs are toxic and this forum is full of them and I'm sick of biting my toungue you can all go **** yourselves

What if we prefer the opposite sex?

[user104658]

Can't believe this has turned into an AERT thread :worry:

(Arista Exclusionary Rational Tibbers)

[Scarlett.]

Then you should of asked them what they meant , this is a sensitive complicated issue . And throwing insults around without a proper debate doesn't solve anything.

You are correct, I was dumb

[Josy]

No matter how thinly veiled, it's still transphobia.



And, I'm guessing no one saw Arista's comment if they want proofThen report the post/s that concerns you and add to the debate in future instead of entering the thread just to champion comments that insult other members.

[Cherie]

It would be nice to think that the issue could be resolved without anyone being offended or disadvantaged but that needs people to discuss it and come up with solutions

[Daniel.]

Then report the post/s that concerns you and add to the debate in future instead of entering the thread just to champion comments that insult other members.

No, I won't just report transphobia lol

[UserSince2005]

I too am disgusted, it is the 21st year of the 21st century!!! Let start treating all with respect.

[user104658]

It would be nice to think that the issue could be resolved without anyone being offended or disadvantaged but that needs people to discuss it and come up with solutionsThe problem sometimes is that it's compared directly with women's rights and gay rights battles when it's actually more complex because there are worries and challenges coming from women, who are undeniably another recent (and let's face it... Still current) group fighting to gain rights. I think that gets pushed aside quite often. Women's rights are still lacking in areas and frankly extremely fragile... But their being viewed in the same light as, for example, the privileged gammons-in-power who were against gay rights. Its just not the same at all.

Worse still is the clash between the lesbian and transgender communities because let's be honest... Gay women have always been the poor cousins of LGBT.

[Novo]

will always be differences between a trans women and a biological women, hardly transphobic to say that its just biology and most trans people will acknowledge that, its only transphobic if you are insulting the person and i don't really see that as an insult, they are still a trans women end of the day, you ain't calling them a man.

[AnnieK]

You are correct, I was dumb

You were not and are not dumb. :love: Its obviously a very sensitive subject for you and its awful you are facing **** from people. Sadly, though there will always be dickheads but most people (on here) will not be coming at you or trans issues as a whole from a place of malice. :hugs:

[Jessica.]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

[GoldHeart]

The problem sometimes is that it's compared directly with women's rights and gay rights battles when it's actually more complex because there are worries and challenges coming from women, who are undeniably another recent (and let's face it... Still current) group fighting to gain rights. I think that gets pushed aside quite often. Women's rights are still lacking in areas and frankly extremely fragile... But their being viewed in the same light as, for example, the privileged gammons-in-power who were against gay rights. Its just not the same at all.

Worse still is the clash between the lesbian and transgender communities because let's be honest... Gay women have always been the poor cousins of LGBT.

Yeah it's very complex , and the problem is everyone part of the LGBT community just all get thrown together and seen as "weird" which isn't fair. And we see the argumentative activists who speak for them on TV alot which doesn't represent the whole community really.

And we don't hear much about trans men , it's usually trans women.

But I remember both boys and girls actually had to share the same toilets in infants, but nobody seemed to think it was odd at the time. But things are different today.

[Marsh.]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

There's nastiness associated with any debate. Not really a reason to shout down any discussion on it.

[Oliver_W]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

It's not just sports, but female spaces in general.

But sports is an example which is easy to understand, as males are (in general) stronger and faster than females, giving them an advantage.

[Captain.Remy]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

And I couldn't have said it any better than you have. :lovedup::lovedup:

It seems that lately it's always the threads about sexuality and gender that trigger the most heated conversations and obvious ignorance.

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard.:shrug: Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

[user104658]

When it comes to public toilets I am PERSONALLY still a massive advocate of unisex single-cubicles. More and more places have them and I think it's absolutely the way forward. In all honesty, I don't particularly like sharing bathroom space with ANYONE so I'm quite biased here.

Also, as the male parent of a female child with additional needs, they are a godsend. It wasn't so much of an issue when she was really little, but she's 8 now so I don't really want to troop her in past the grubby blokes at the urinals to a cubicle in a men's toilets... and I can't just wander on into the ladies with her... so if there isn't an available disabled toilet it becomes an issue. A few nearby shopping complexes/malls just have rows of individual locking bathrooms now and I love it. In the 21st century... I just can't see many good arguments to not make this "the norm" for toilets/changing areas/etc. Solves a multitude of very basic problems.

[user104658]

And I couldn't have said it any better than you have. :lovedup::lovedup:

It seems that lately it's always the threads about sexuality and gender that trigger the most heated conversations and obvious ignorance.

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard.:shrug: Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

The irony really is in how naive and ignorant this post is :shrug:.

"Shut up women, your rights are not being attacked or threatened, just relax and love it".

Massively problematic.

[Marsh.]

And I couldn't have said it any better than you have. :lovedup::lovedup:

It seems that lately it's always the threads about sexuality and gender that trigger the most heated conversations and obvious ignorance.

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard.:shrug: Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

Yet it seems this kind of condescending misogyny is acceptable.

Not.

[Novo]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

sports is highly relevant if you are passionate about it and even if you are not surely you would want a level playing ground for biological women and not to be done out of achievements because someone is biologically built different and allowed to compete in the field you are in

[Captain.Remy]

The irony really is in how naive and ignorant this post is :shrug:.

"Shut up women, your rights are not being attacked or threatened, just relax and love it".

Massively problematic.

But their rights aren't being attacked though. From what I understood by reading, listening trans people, listening women themselves etc That's getting educated on certain topics that I'm not personally concerned with. I think that's fair to get interested in what others live and go through. And I'm not saying what others feel is not valid either.


It's always been proven that Trans rights are women’s rights too, one doesn't put at risk the others and I think it's a pity some people try to put these two against each other when things can be worked out. I always feel a little bit sad when I see feminists fighting with trans activists. It requires a lot of education and talking and really be aware to work it out.
I didn't mean any harm to anyone. If anything, I've always been a promoter of unisex toilets with solutions that come with them (because that seems to be the issue here), and equal rights for all. :love:

[user104658]

But their rights aren't being attacked though. From what I understood by reading, listening trans people, listening women themselves etc That's getting educated on certain topics that I'm not personally concerned with. I think that's fair to get interested in what others live and go through. And I'm not saying what others feel is not valid either.


It's always been proven that Trans rights are women’s rights too, one doesn't put at risk the others and I think it's a pity some people try to put these two against each other when things can be worked out. I always feel a little bit sad when I see feminists fighting with trans activists. It requires a lot of education and talking and really be aware to work it out.
I didn't mean any harm to anyone. If anything, I've always been a promoter of unisex toilets with solutions that come with them (because that seems to be the issue here), and equal rights for all. :love:

If someone thinks their rights are at risk, and you think otherwise, you need to explain why their fears are misplaced... carefully, in detail, and respecting those worries. "Lol no you are wrong, be quiet and relax" is dismissive at very best and yes I agree with Marsh, straight-up misogyny at worst. Massive conotations.

[Captain.Remy]

Yet it seems this kind of condescending misogyny is acceptable.

Not.

I wasn't specifically talking about that issue in particular, but more so about the general feel I get lately on this forum that there's a lot of heated debates around that and how we still have a long way to go before completely accepting people for their genders and sexualities without judging them or making assumptions about who is who and who loves who and what. What I said is that it really can't be that hard to accept people for who they are. I mean, why the hatred ans refusal to get educated on this topic.:shrug: That's the feel I got lately and I get it that not everybody shares that and I'm OK with that.

That's basically all I said and I wish everybody would be more open-minded and accepting of people that are marginalized and discriminated on.

[Jessica.]

And I couldn't have said it any better than you have. :lovedup::lovedup:

It seems that lately it's always the threads about sexuality and gender that trigger the most heated conversations and obvious ignorance.

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard.:shrug: Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

Exactly, thank you!

[bots]

refusing to listen to the thoughts of one side of any debate and even worse accusing them falsely of hate crimes and spreading misinformation for having concerns, is a mirror of what Trump tried to achieve in America. Thought for the day.

[Captain.Remy]

If someone thinks their rights are at risk, and you think otherwise, you need to explain why their fears are misplaced... carefully, in detail, and respecting those worries. "Lol no you are wrong, be quiet and relax" is dismissive at very best and yes I agree with Marsh, straight-up misogyny at worst. Massive conotations.

Again, in what way was it misogyny though?
What I meant is that trans people are not threatening anybody, they're being themselves. How is that against women?
I also agreed with Jessica that calling a transwoman a man is transphobia. Because it is. I'm not the one saying it because I decided so, it's the people that are concerned about it that express that.

Back to the topic, I think that more educating surrounding the toilets or locker rooms can do a long way so that fears are not only misplaced but gone. We hear many stories and feedbacks that unisex toilets have not increased violence for example.
Education is for the better, I believe. Both women rights and trans rights don't have to be put against each other.

[Novo]

And I couldn't have said it any better than you have. :lovedup::lovedup:

It seems that lately it's always the threads about sexuality and gender that trigger the most heated conversations and obvious ignorance.

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard.:shrug: Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

people do care about things like that though and its a huge topic because sports is a big deal to so many people around the world its not about being fragile its about giving women equal opportunity to compete with other biological women, why does that make anyone fragile or threatened in anyway? their are differences that you have to accept when it comes to things like that, no good turning a blind eye to it.

[user104658]

I wasn't specifically talking about that issue in particular, but more so about the general feel I get lately on this forum that there's a lot of heated debates around that and how we still have a long way to go before completely accepting people for their genders and sexualities without judging them or making assumptions about who is who and who loves who and what. What I said is that it really can't be that hard to accept people for who they are. I mean, why the hatred ans refusal to get educated on this topic.:shrug: That's the feel I got lately and I get it that not everybody shares that and I'm OK with that.

That's basically all I said and I wish everybody would be more open-minded and accepting of people that are marginalized and discriminated on.

I've literally never seen anyone on this forum do what you've said in the bit in bold there; any and all concerns I see are about how it affects single-sex spaces and sex segregated sports, and general concerns about how trans issues interact with already existing gender equality debates.

Valid and important debate issues and attempting to shut them down by accusing people who are interested in these issues of being transphobic, judgemental or uneducated is an extremebly dubious stance, and in my opinion, a quite deliberate shaming tactic or strawman. There's just no place for it in an actually educated debate, or anywhere outside outrage-culture.

[user104658]

Again, in what way was it misogyny though?


In short? Because flippantly poo-pooing away women's concerns as silly, unfounded, illogical or uneducated instead of actually allowing them to be aired and discussed is misogyny as old as the hills... and it's exactly what you're trying to do, repeatedly. You have barely offered up ANY discussion of why the concerns are unfounded, beyond "that's just silly they are unfounded just sit down and accept it".

[Captain.Remy]

I've literally never seen anyone on this forum do what you've said in the bit in bold there; any and all concerns I see are about how it affects single-sex spaces and sex segregated sports, and general concerns about how trans issues interact with already existing gender equality debates.

Valid and important debate issues and attempting to shut them down by accusing people who are interested in these issues of being transphobic, judgemental or uneducated is an extremebly dubious stance, and in my opinion, a quite deliberate shaming tactic or strawman. There's just no place for it in an actually educated debate, or anywhere outside outrage-culture.

Not in this thread particularly. You can read some past ones, it's pretty alarming. To me at least.
As for the rest, I think I was pretty clear. I agreed with Jessica and that was it. And again, I was advocating for people to more open-minded and know more about transgender people so that this kind of fears and discrimination can finally be put to rest and live together in a more accepting society.

But you can take it out on me if you want, when I was just saying that trans rights and womens rights don't have to be against each other. In the end it's social justice.

[Oliver_W]

It's always been proven that Trans rights are women’s rights too, one doesn't put at risk the others

Transwomen being allowed into female spaces negates women's rights to have single sex spaces, so yeah, in that case their rights are in conflict.

[Josy]

The irony really is in how naive and ignorant this post is :shrug:.



"Shut up women, your rights are not being attacked or threatened, just relax and love it".



Massively problematic.Exactly this.

[Niamh.]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.I literally have a female boxer as my avatar but I don't care about sports. How about you don't tell me what I do and do not care about because you clearly have no idea.

[Cherie]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

Sports is actually a prime example, apart from 'winning' there are lucrative sponsorship deals that come from being top in your field

also in the USA and TiBB loves the US, Scholarships are handed out to top atheletes

[Jessica.]

Transwomen being allowed into female spaces negates women's rights to have single sex spaces, so yeah, in that case their rights are in conflict.

No it doesn't, trans women are women, it's their right to use the same spaces as the rest of us, lots of cis women don't have typical genitalia either, does that mean they are not women? No it doesn't, obviously. Your only issue is that they were assigned male at birth which doesn't affect how much of a woman they are whatsoever.

[user104658]

I was just saying that trans rights and womens rights don't have to be against each other. In the end it's social justice.

We agree on that but to me it's pretty clear that to find a way forward that respects everyone's rights as much as possible is the ability to have open, honest, frank and thus very difficult discussions about those rights, where they match up, where they clash, and what can be done to work around those clashes.

There's no part of that that involves sweeping the conversation under the carpet because it's a hard one to have, and there's no way for it to start on a platform that insists one point of view has it all figured out and the other is "uneducated".

[Cherie]

refusing to listen to the thoughts of one side of any debate and even worse accusing them falsely of hate crimes and spreading misinformation for having concerns, is a mirror of what Trump tried to achieve in America. Thought for the day.

.

[Beso]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum. Yes, calling a transwoman a man is transphobia.

Yeah but that person needs to realise that there are people out there who when meeting her for the first time may think she is a man. Once told people wont continue to refer to her as him.

[user104658]

No it doesn't, trans women are women, it's their right to use the same spaces as the rest of us, lots of cis women don't have typical genitalia either, does that mean they are not women? No it doesn't, obviously. Your only issue is that they were assigned male at birth which doesn't affect how much of a woman they are whatsoever.

How can you reduce the issue of single sex spaces to genitalia without reducing the difference between the sexes entirely to genitalia - thus nullifying the entire concept of gender and thus, in effect, arguing that transgender can't exist? Are you aware that your own thought process is full of incompatible ideas here?

[Novo]

I literally have a female boxer as my avatar but I don't care about sports. How about you don't tell me what I do and do not care about because you clearly have no idea.

ah yes that awful FENIAN boxer isn't it




just kidding x

[Jessica.]

How can you reduce the issue of single sex spaces to genitalia without reducing the difference between the sexes entirely to genitalia - thus nullifying the entire concept of gender and thus, in effect, arguing that transgender can't exist? Are you aware that your own thought process is full of incompatible ideas here?

Gender is not completely related to genitalia, that's what I am saying.

[user104658]

Gender is not completely related to genitalia, that's what I am saying.

But you were the only one who brought genitalia into it...

[GoldHeart]

When it comes to public toilets I am PERSONALLY still a massive advocate of unisex single-cubicles. More and more places have them and I think it's absolutely the way forward. In all honesty, I don't particularly like sharing bathroom space with ANYONE so I'm quite biased here.

Also, as the male parent of a female child with additional needs, they are a godsend. It wasn't so much of an issue when she was really little, but she's 8 now so I don't really want to troop her in past the grubby blokes at the urinals to a cubicle in a men's toilets... and I can't just wander on into the ladies with her... so if there isn't an available disabled toilet it becomes an issue. A few nearby shopping complexes/malls just have rows of individual locking bathrooms now and I love it. In the 21st century... I just can't see many good arguments to not make this "the norm" for toilets/changing areas/etc. Solves a multitude of very basic problems.

Tbh I never understood why there had to be public urinals, if I was a man I'd hate having to use them as there's literally no personal space . Cubicles are atleast more private . But urinals are too exposed.

[user104658]

I have to wonder - do people who are all for abandoning single-sex spaces aware of what the actual fear is? It's not a fear that genuine transwomen are going to start attacking people at random... it's a fear that men will use it as a loophole to access those spaces disingenuously and with nefarious intent.

As for the argument that "that won't happen" - all I can really say there is that anyone who genuinely believes it won't happen doesn't know the half of this world and probably doesn't want to. It's not a "maybe"... it -will- happen. That's not a judgment on genuine transwomen at all, it's a judgement on men, and an acceptance that there are a seriously sickening number of men out there who will absolutely exploit an opportunity to abuse and harm women. Hard realities but there it is.

[Novo]

Tbh I never understood why there had to be public urinals, if I was a man I'd hate having to use them as there's literally no personal space . Cubicles are atleast more private . But urinals are too exposed.

all you are doing is having a slash, if another guy is having a slash right next you who cares, just relieved to get it out the system aren't you

[Crimson Dynamo]

SO so far if you disagree I will call you a name (tick)

if you disagree you are transphobic (tick)

if you disagree you are the problem (tick)


and you wonder why this is oft described as toxic?

:umm2:

[Captain.Remy]

We agree on that but to me it's pretty clear that to find a way forward that respects everyone's rights as much as possible is the ability to have open, honest, frank and thus very difficult discussions about those rights, where they match up, where they clash, and what can be done to work around those clashes.

There's no part of that that involves sweeping the conversation under the carpet because it's a hard one to have, and there's no way for it to start on a platform that insists one point of view has it all figured out and the other is "uneducated".

Again, what I meant was not "women must shut up", to be clear.

I meant, in a more general way, that the feeling on TIBB lately when it comes to transgender people and sexuality topics was more intense than usual and, in a more general way, we should all try to love and accept each other for who they are.
I sometimes struggle with the idea that people can say transpeople are not valid or men or women etc. Just let people be and love each other :love:

Also, and to refer to Jessica's comment, a lot of time transgender people face the "but you're not born a man/woman" which nobody denies (though hormones is a tricky topic also), and a lot of people hide their transphobia behind issues like sports, unisex toilets or locker rooms. Hence the frustration.
It is an education issue also when people who have those fears didn't take the chance to at least talk with the right people (ie transgender people in this case). And before anybody jumps on that, I'm NOT saying TIBB members are transphobic or uneducated, just so we're clear.

I hope it cleared that up for whoever thought I was telling women to act or feel a certain way, because I was not and would never. My comment was targeting transphobic people. Good night to all!

[Oliver_W]

No it doesn't, trans women are women, it's their right to use the same spaces as the rest of us, lots of cis women don't have typical genitalia either, does that mean they are not women? No it doesn't, obviously. Your only issue is that they were assigned male at birth which doesn't affect how much of a woman they are whatsoever.

Transwomen are male, women are female - "even" women with intersex conditions, funnily enough.

Sex isn't assigned at birth; it's acknowledged or recorded at birth, but biological realities can't be assigned.

[Captain.Remy]

all you are doing is having a slash, if another guy is having a slash right next you who cares, just relieved to get it out the system aren't you

The dreaded Middle Urinal Dilemma is no joke to some :joker:
Indeed, just get it out the system and get out of there :laugh:

[Niamh.]

ah yes that awful FENIAN boxer isn't it









just kidding xOnly the greatest female boxer there is, added bonus that she's also Irish

[user104658]

Transwomen are male, women are female - "even" women with intersex conditions, funnily enough.

Sex isn't assigned at birth; it's acknowledged or recorded at birth, but biological realities can't be assigned.

Taking a purely scientific/logical standpoint this is true but I also understand why it's difficult for transgender people.

Sex is a physical descriptor, gender is a sociological construct, and on a scientific level both are totally separate and don't even need to conflict - all it takes to accept transgenderism is to accept that a woman (gender) can be male (biology) and vice versa, but a male cannot become female (biologically). Again though, I appreciate that this is a very sensitive and difficult reality for transpeople.

Funnily enough it would actually be a path to solving the sports problem; just tier the sports leagues as male and female rather than men and women. Though then you do run into a whole host of other problems when it comes to hormone replacement (transmen need a lot of HRT that is banned in female sorts for obvious reasons, and transwomen who have been taking female hormones will, frankly, very quickly become unable to compete with men, including transmen).

[user104658]

On the sports topic I also think it's just a generally ****ty situation for women to be in - imagine having to have the vulnerability to say "please don't come into our sport, we can't physically compete with biological males" - which must be a ****ing hard thing to admit in the first place - only to be shut down and told that you're wrong and it's a level playing field :shrug:.

[GoldHeart]

all you are doing is having a slash, if another guy is having a slash right next you who cares, just relieved to get it out the system aren't you

Well I'd still use a private cubicle if I was a man.

[Captain.Remy]

I have to wonder - do people who are all for abandoning single-sex spaces aware of what the actual fear is? It's not a fear that genuine transwomen are going to start attacking people at random... it's a fear that men will use it as a loophole to access those spaces disingenuously and with nefarious intent.

As for the argument that "that won't happen" - all I can really say there is that anyone who genuinely believes it won't happen doesn't know the half of this world and probably doesn't want to. It's not a "maybe"... it -will- happen. That's not a judgment on genuine transwomen at all, it's a judgement on men, and an acceptance that there are a seriously sickening number of men out there who will absolutely exploit an opportunity to abuse and harm women. Hard realities but there it is.

I think some feel like transmen and transwomen will attack them any shape or form (sexual attacks etc), specifically transwoman.

That's why the best public toilets have full-sized doors and a sink in the cubicle, so you can do what you need to do in privacy and go about your day.
Now that doesn't resolve the issue, but it falls back to how you educate your children, men (that are seen as the biggest danger in this context) and women on how to behave and act right. I feel like the more we have of them, the more people will get used to it and eventually accept them.

[user104658]

Well I'd still use a private cubicle if I was a man.

I can't pee in front of people so I have to :joker:. It's not even a "don't want people to see my peener" thing - I could go and stand at a urinal with my knob out all day and not be bothered - but I still won't be able to piss :think:.

[Niamh.]

On the sports topic I also think it's just a generally ****ty situation for women to be in - imagine having to have the vulnerability to say "please don't come into our sport, we can't physically compete with biological males" - which must be a ****ing hard thing to admit in the first place - only to be shut down and told that you're wrong and it's a level playing field :shrug:.It really is, womens sports struggle to be taken seriously as it is

[Novo]

On the sports topic I also think it's just a generally ****ty situation for women to be in - imagine having to have the vulnerability to say "please don't come into our sport, we can't physically compete with men" - which must be a ****ing hard thing to admit in the first place - only to be shut down and told that you're wrong and it's a level playing field :shrug:.

spot on, times in the past i use to laugh about 15 year old boys school kids beating womens professional teams but its just a totally different playing field and doesn't make them any less talented they still have to work just as hard to get where they are, the difference really is huge when it comes to have the sports are played, tactics, stamina, strength etc

[Alf]

One day in fake office and the Illegitimate President has already got Tibb members at each others throats.

Strap in, this will be a bumpy ride.

[Captain.Remy]

One day in fake office and the Illegitimate President has already got Tibb members at each others throats.

Strap in, this will be a bumpy ride.

As if people weren't at each others throats when Trump was in office.:shrug:
Nobody said everything would be clear and peaceful when Biden is elected. That would be very naive.

[Vicky.]

Funnily enough it would actually be a path to solving the sports problem; just tier the sports leagues as male and female rather than men and women. Though then you do run into a whole host of other problems when it comes to hormone replacement (transmen need a lot of HRT that is banned in female sorts for obvious reasons, and transwomen who have been taking female hormones will, frankly, very quickly become unable to compete with men, including transmen).

Its already male and female though in reality, so that doesn't need to be changed. Its just semantics to say its split by 'gender' because sometimes men and women is used instead. I actually don't see any situation where a 'gender' segregation would ever be needed? Given gender is a very personal thing, and totally internal also.

Honestly, its not the best answer, but all I can think of is a seperate 'league' or whatever for people who are trans. I believe its generally accepted that transwomen would still have an advantage over transmen, because the advantage is caused by male puberty more than the actual current levels of hormones, but that would be a bit more of an even playing field. Which is..well one of the reasons its unfair to have transwomen competing with women even if they lower testosterone to 0. There could be issues with takeup, not many trans athletes, but given the amount of transwomen seemingly wanting into female sports these days, it seems there is definitely some demand, and with proper advertisement or whatever, it could take off. I would actually watch it but maybe not for the right 'reasons' as I would be intruiged to see if the transmen did actually do well against transwomen. As its the whole puberty v testosterone argument in action really. Could get more studies from that option too, and maybe reevaluate options in the future based on results. Non binary people might feel more comfortable with this option also, rather than having to put themselves in male or female, though of course, some do also acknowledge their sex so might be fine in the 'binary' categories, but the option would be there for them anyway. (mind, even with that there could be potential issues. As a non binary male person who is not on medication, would absolutely wipe out everyone else generally speaking)

Besides that, the answer is to have the female category. And change the male one to 'open'. In reality, no man will be disadvataged by a transwoman, or a transman competing with him. But it would mean they still can compete. I think men might find that unfair though, even though its not 'actually unfair' if that makes sense. It would sound unfair if only females got their own sport, though men competing with transwomen and transmen, are not going to be at any disadvantage. With an open category, the few women who think 'males do not have a sporting advantage, the females should just work harder!' and such would also get their chance to prove this, and race against men. They can train themselves up as much as they like and take their chances.

Theres no answer that would please everyone, and thats part of the problem. But the answer certainly is NOT what current activists (and stonewall) are shouting for right now, which is to make female sport unfair/unsafe for females, in order to try and make another group happy, when there is loads of evidence that it IS unsafe and unfair, its not just an opinion. Its fact. I mean, even without all the recent studies and such that prove what most already knew, why did we have segrgeated sport to start with, if there are not any differences?

Said I wouldn't post anymore, however, the thread seems relatively calm now compared to how others have gone, and sport has been something I have been looking into for a while. And even after that while, the above is all I can think of to 'even the playing field' so to speak. It IS a difficult convo. I just really despise how the default option always seems to be the one that disadvantages women. And then ontop of this, women are told to shut up, stop being bigoted and accept it else they are big meanies. This is the case regardless of how said woman puts her point across. Oddly, men seem able to talk on this topic without being attacked, even when the men talking are actually using transphobic language and such. Its..odd to see.

(Not saying the men on here are using transphobic language. Speaking more generally here. Women are attacked for mentioning anything on the topic. Men can literally use transphobic slurs and be largely ignored)

[Vicky.]

I also ****ing hate the idea of urinals, though most men seem ok with it. As a side note.

And single loos are definitely the best idea.

Loos are the least of the issues in reality though, and by far the easiest one to 'solve'. Its prisons and such, where the real problems lie.

[GoldHeart]

I can't pee in front of people so I have to :joker:. It's not even a "don't want people to see my peener" thing - I could go and stand at a urinal with my knob out all day and not be bothered - but I still won't be able to piss :think:.

It's like when some men go in bushes without a care if there's no loo, again as a woman I can't do that and I wouldn't want to anyway :skull:

[Crimson Dynamo]

At football matches with grounds over say 40k - you have to queue 4 deep for a piss and the bogs are full shoulder to shoulder. there are maybe 3 cubicles and that is for folk doing coke only.

space/cash is the key factor when installing toilets so anyone hoping for a change soon is pissing in the wind

its a money thing

exclusively

its nothing to do with anything else

[Captain.Remy]

I just really despise how the default option always seems to be the one that disadvantages women. And then ontop of this, women are told to shut up, stop being bigoted and accept it else they are big meanies. This is the case regardless of how said woman puts her point across. Oddly, men seem able to talk on this topic without being attacked, even when the men talking are actually using transphobic language and such. Its..odd to see.

(Not saying the men on here are using transphobic language. Speaking more generally here. Women are attacked for mentioning anything on the topic. Men can literally use transphobic slurs and be largely ignored)

That's the saddest part of it, and a lot of people use the womens rights vs trans rights "war" to completely invalidate both parties and make them look terrible. I once heard someone say "well, women like to hate each other anyway" :skull: in a discussion about feminists (not here on TIBB)

And that's for any topic really, when you see that for example in some countries only men are deciding for women or are part of meetings about abortion and womens rights. It's...so wrong.

[Elliot]

Every other week there’s an anti trans row on here give it a ****ing break

[Josy]

Every other week there’s an anti trans row on here give it a ****ing breakOr you can just leave the thread and leave people that wish to debate the topic to it? Maybe serious debates isnt the place for you if certain threads upset you.

[GoldHeart]

And mother's usually take their little boys into women's toilet with them for safety, a father can't do that with his daughter though if he's a single dad .

[Oliver_W]

Every other week there’s an anti trans row on here give it a ****ing break

If the threads were saying "eww transwomen are icky" you might have a point. But in this case, it's relating to Joe Biden putting trans rights before women's rights, so it's current and relevant.

[Tom4784]

The article is poorly written, that's my first thought since it's pushing an agenda.

My second thought is that it's a lot of hysteria over nothing and that things will be done with common sense in mind.

[Niamh.]

spot on, times in the past i use to laugh about 15 year old boys school kids beating womens professional teams but its just a totally different playing field and doesn't make them any less talented they still have to work just as hard to get where they are, the difference really is huge when it comes to have the sports are played, tactics, stamina, strength etcI guess a comparison could be a feather weight to a heavy weight boxer, they both put in equal work and train hard but making them fight eachother still wouldn't be fair

[Vicky.]

That's the saddest part of it, and a lot of people use the womens rights vs trans rights "war" to completely invalidate both parties and make them look terrible. I once heard someone say "well, women like to hate each other anyway" :skull: in a discussion about feminists (not here on TIBB)

And that's for any topic really, when you see that for example in some countries only men are deciding for women or are part of meetings about abortion and womens rights. It's...so wrong.

Well yeah. But you have also spent a fair amount of time on here saying that women are worrying for nothing? Which is kind of..the same thing to me, though not quite on the same level as men making the official decisions?

The current asks of transactivists (note I use activists, as transpeople do not seem to be as extreme in their misogyny) absolutely DO steamroll over womens current sex based rights. There is no doubt about it.

It is possible, to find solutions to advance trans rights. Without requiring women to lose their current rights. Just the current demands do not do this, they actively do take away the rights of female people. And this is why a lot of women are fighting back. Its not about attacking 'trans rights'. Its fighting to retain our existing rights, and saying we are bigoted for doing that, is..not good really.

As you seem quite adamant that current demandsdo not actually affect female people at all ad instead just help transpeople, can you explain to me how..as prisons are the easiest issue for people to see (though I always thought this would be sports)..the following does not remove the rights of female people, to be incarcerated with other female people.

A male person who is a transwoman (a male woman, when using both gender and sex I guess) is put in jail for rape. The current rules, and what trasactivists pushed for, say that this male woman, can be sent to the female estate. As their 'gender identity' is 'woman'. Even though prisons are split by sex, not gender. This move is automatic if the person has a 'gender recognition certificate' which means they have 'legally changed sex' (which is a mass of issues in itself) but even if they have not done this, they can be considered for a move to the female estate.

How does that not effect the rights of female people?

This is not a hypothetical. Its happening. And has already had the logical conclusion also. A 'male woman' in female prison, sexually assaulting, or/and raping the female prisoners. When this happens, sometimes the 'male woman' is sent to a different female prison as a 'solution'. Sometimes they are then moved to somewhere in the male estate, but by that point, there has already been victims that should never have been victims.

A situation that should, IMO never even be a possibility.

Acnowledging that this is a HUGE problem, does not mean I think all transwomen are rapists. It does mean that I think men will abuse such a system, and men already have.

And honestly, even one male person in one female prison is an issue for me. I know some will write off a certain amount of injured women as collateral damage, but I won't. And such people can never say how many women need to be harmed for the problem to be acnowledged either oddly enough.

Like..there are loads of these instances currently. And I feel, just a proper look at the topic could sort things for both transpeople and female people. Yes, a 'genuine' transwoman (meaning someone with dysphoria, not a random man trying to abuse this) might be in danger in the male estate. The answer to that though is not to use women as human shields, and say that any male who might be at risk (or 'says he is a woman') should become the female peoples problem to sort? The answer, surely, is to have...trans wings, or something like that. So yes, sex, and how it matters is acknowledged. But also, gender is acknowledged, along with general safety of different groups of people. And more people as a result are kept safe. The current way, men have a very easy loophole to transfer to female prisons (and its well known how awful mens prisons are, so in a way you cant blame a lot of them for trying, thats before even getting into the ones wanting to move to abuse the women) which simply results in, female people being massively more at risk, in a place where they absolutely cannot escape.

I also tend to think when the 'but transwomen are at risk in male prisons' somes up, think of the other groups who would be more at risk in a male prison, smaller males, disabled males, gay males, and so on. Should we also open up female prisons to those people as they are more at risk? Or is the answer, lowering the risk for those people in any way we can, instead of putting MORE people at risk instead?

Much thought is needed. The topic is not one that can be easily 'solved'. But current solutions, put women at risk. Not necessarily from transwomen, but from men. And anyone saying men would never abuse such a loophole is kidding themselves tbh. Some men train for years to be priests or teachers, in order to access victims. To claim to have a 'woman gender identity' is nothing to such people. Also, the proportion of sex offenders in prison claiming to be transwomen is hugely disproportional to the amount of sex offenders in the general male population. Which is something that should concern everyone tbh. I don't think transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders, however, something is happening. The logical conclusion is that male sex offenders are saying they are transwomen, to get a transfer. Which is unsurprising while the option exists.

The answer needs to keep transwomen safe, but also not make women unsafe. The current answer, places women in danger. And quite obviously, removes their current sex based rights.

This has probably gone on for longer than intended. This is because..well its a difficult topic with many areas that need looked at. Not simply a 'women, nothing is affecting you really, just shut up and think of the transpeople' like some seem to think it is. Nor is it a 'well tranwomen are male, just shove them in male prison if they are abused, tough' situation. An answer, needs to take both groups into account. The current answer, only considers transwomen.

[Niamh.]

The article is poorly written, that's my first thought since it's pushing an agenda.



My second thought is that it's a lot of hysteria over nothing and that things will be done with common sense in mind.I do hope so Dezzy, I really think that's all most people want

[GoldHeart]

I do hope so Dezzy, I really think that's all most people want

Yeah true , I think the problem aswell is the Media likes to run with a story aswell and likes to make people look bad .

And not all trans women want to compete in women's sports ,but we're led to believe they do .

[Vicky.]

And not all trans women want to compete in women's sports ,but we're led to believe they do .

Quite. Its a select few. Ones who..well have no sense of wanting fairness in competition I guess. And then often go on to abuse women who point out the lack of fairness, and call them transphobic.

I only know a couple of transpeople tbf, but they think it is ridiculous to even consider male people in womens sport. They say the same as anyone else who talks about the topic tbh, that such people know its unfair, and don't care, or are simply looking to take advantage of a natural advantage.

I think the loopholes and such are more at fault, than those who use the loopholes really though. Such things should not be allowed to start with. If you leave gaping holes like that, or specifically set up legislation in such a way, of course some will take advantage.

Its only a few at the moment, but even a few has the potential to devastate womes sport. Even teenage boys can run rings round adult professional sports players. Its blatantly unfair, and needs to end.

[Vicky.]

My second thought is that it's a lot of hysteria over nothing and that things will be done with common sense in mind.

One would hope. I wish I could be so optomistic to be quite honest. But given past similar things that actually happened and are happening, I can no longer think common sense will win. Can hope though..

The trans ban in the military though absolutely should be lifted. I can understand it if it was a..medication issue. As as I understand theres a lot of people disqualified because of the meds they take/need for whatever reason. But it appeared to be a flat out ban on anyone who said they were trans, whatever their medical status, which is clearly just phobic and should not have happened at all. So I do 100% agree with lifting that.

[Tom4784]

When it comes to sports, the sad reality is that trans people can never compete on the same level as their gender. Trans men will never really have the same strength advantages that cis men have and trans women will have an advantage over cis women in most sports.

I don't think trans people in sports can ever really be a thing unless there's enough trans people to have them competing against each other. It's a bit exclusionary but it's the only way I can see trans men standing a chance and trans women not dominating traditional sports.

It's a **** solution but it's the only one that springs to mind.

[GoldHeart]

Quite. Its a select few. Ones who..well have no sense of wanting fairness in competition I guess. And then often go on to abuse women who point out the lack of fairness, and call them transphobic.

I only know a couple of transpeople tbf, but they think it is ridiculous to even consider male people in womens sport. They say the same as anyone else who talks about the topic tbh, that such people know its unfair, and don't care, or are simply looking to take advantage of a natural advantage.

I think the loopholes and such are more at fault, than those who use the loopholes really though. Such things should not be allowed to start with. If you leave gaping holes like that, or specifically set up legislation in such a way, of course some will take advantage.

Its only a few at the moment, but even a few has the potential to devastate womes sport. Even teenage boys can run rings round adult professional sports players. Its blatantly unfair, and needs to end.

There was a trans woman bodybuilder, I forgot her name but it was implied she was competing in women's sport.But I think she either competed with men or just didn't compete atall .

Yeah unfortunately people will always take advantage of loopholes .

The weird thing with public toilets now is the whole pandemic , before Covid I still hated using them . But I definitely think urinals should go and that we should have separate cubicles like what TS said . But I know that won't happen :rolleyes: .

[Mystic Mock]

Maybe you're right, I am sorry Niamh, for calling you a terf, and for getting angry at you Marsh

The anger hasnt stemmed from you but from real life, I am sorry for my outburst, legitimately and ban me if you must. The anger has stemmed from people legitimately putting trans people down and I recognise that that is not what you are doing, I regret saying what I did.

It's a tricky issue Scarlett, and one that affects/effects (playing it safe there:laugh:) both you and Niamh so you're both gonna be passionate about the topic for different reasons, but also good reasons imo.

Obviously I don't fit into either group so it's not really my place to know what the right answers to this particular issue are, but hopefully countries worldwide will be able to come up with a compromise for both sides, whatever that may be.

[Captain.Remy]

I think a big area of frustration for transgender people is that they can't have access to what they really need/want because of a few bad cases, and people tend to focus more on the bad than the good.

Not that I don't understand it because, as Vicky mentionned for example, there are people that will try to take advantage of it and hurt people. And those hurt ones need to be heard too.
But really it's more the system that should be wronged rather than the people themselves, hence a well-needed good education about those issues.
To me there are way more good willing people than bad and I can see the frustration of transgender people always hearing "but it's unfair" or "transwomen beat up women in unisex toilets" etc all the time as a justification to what should be forbidden or not.
Not to mention that there are fully transphobic people who use these excuses to hide their transphobia (and again, I'm not talking about TIBB members who are fully genuine in their concerns about the topic and are not transphobic)

Again, not putting any justification of violence cases or people taking advantage of it aside whatsoever because it's a reality. I'm just pointing out what transgender people currently feel and that indeed, there is a way for both trans rights and womens rights to meet and fight for social justice together.

[Vicky.]

There was a trans woman bodybuilder, I forgot her name but it was implied she was competing in women's sport.But I think she either competed with men or just didn't compete atall .

Yeah unfortunately people will always take advantage of loopholes .

The weird thing with public toilets now is the whole pandemic , before Covid I still hated using them . But I definitely think urinals should go and that we should have separate cubicles like what TS said . But I know that won't happen :rolleyes: .

I believe you may be thinking of Laurel Hubbard. New Zealand IIRC. Quite crap in the male category. Came out as a transwoman. And is taking records in the womens category oddly enough, despite being well past the usual peak of weightlifters, at 40+. Trouncing the younger fitter competitors.

Edit. Maybe not, read body builder as weightlifter :blush2:

Some of the transwomen competitors DO still compete in their sex class. Those are the ones I would say are brave tbh. As especially if they are on medication, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage, and will have to work a lot harder than others. The ones who decide to just start competing as women instead though, I have no time for and cannot see as anything other than cheats. Though technically they are not cheating as its 'within the rules'. They certainly have no sense of fair play.

[Vicky.]

I think a big area of frustration for transgender people is that they can't have access to what they really need/want because of a few bad cases, and people tend to focus more on the bad than the good.

Not that I don't understand it because, as Vicky mentionned for example, there are people that will try to take advantage of it and hurt people. And those hurt ones need to be heard too.
But really it's more the system that should be wronged rather than the people themselves, hence a well-needed good education about those issues.
To me there are way more good willing people than bad and I can see the frustration of transgender people always hearing "but it's unfair" or "transwomen beat up women in unisex toilets" etc all the time as a justification to what should be forbidden or not.
Not to mention that there are fully transphobic people who use these excuses to hide their transphobia (and again, I'm not talking about TIBB members who are fully genuine in their concerns about the topic and are not transphobic)

Again, not putting any justification of violence cases or people taking advantage of it aside whatsoever because it's a reality. I'm just pointing out what transgender people currently feel and that indeed, there is a way for both trans rights and womens rights to meet and fight for social justice together.

Its not 'just a few bad people' though. I don't understand that argument in this context. We make laws on people based on classes. Not on the good people who exist. Otherwise, men would all be allowed in female areas, because most men are not dangerous and most do not want to abuse women. Female areas would not exist if we rationalise in the way you are doing above? Not sure if I am explaining myself right here. But no laws would exist at all really, if it was all based on that. As generally speaking, most people will be good, its only a few bad ones, in whatever you are talking about. There would not be laws around fraud, because most people would never dream of committing fraud, making laws around it is accusing good people of maybe not being good. We wouldn't need laws on child abuse, as come on, most people don't abuse children, its not nice to base stuff on the few who do, its insulting and upsetting to those who would never consider doing anything wrong. Basically, safeguarding does not work based on the good ones. It takes all into account.


transwomen beat up women in unisex toilets - Have literally never seen that said ever. Yeah it would be **** to hear that all the time though.

Agreed though, about people who hide actual transphobia by using other genuine issues to mask it. Thats generally quite obvious as...its people who only ever pop up in womens rights stuff when it comes to trans related stuff. They do not care about womens rights generally, yet suddenly do when its to do with trans people. The reverse happens also. People who give not a **** about 'social justice' or whatever, unless its a trans topic, in which case they use it to talk crap about women. Its hugely frustrating, but generally quite obvious.

I get why transpeople feel attacked. I also understand why women feel attacked. Neither should be attacked. Both deserve rights, of their own. And solutions need to be found that benefit both groups. Not one group totally ignored and silenced, in order to please the other. Its possible to do. Just seemingly, unwanted.

[Captain.Remy]

Its not 'just a few bad people' though. I don't understand that argument in this context. We make laws on people based on classes. Not on the good people who exist. Otherwise, men would all be allowed in female areas, because most men are not dangerous and most do not want to abuse women. Female areas would not exist if we rationalise in the way you are doing above? Not sure if I am explaining myself right here. But no laws would exist at all really, if it was all based on that. As generally speaking, most people will be good, its only a few bad ones, in whatever you are talking about. There would not be laws around fraud, because most people would never dream of committing fraud, making laws around it is accusing good people of maybe not being good. We wouldn't need laws on child abuse, as come on, most people don't abuse children, its not nice to base stuff on the few who do, its insulting and upsetting to those who would never consider doing anything wrong. Basically, safeguarding does not work based on the good ones. It takes all into account.


transwomen beat up women in unisex toilets - Have literally never seen that said ever. Yeah it would be **** to hear that all the time though.

Agreed though, about people who hide actual transphobia by using other genuine issues to mask it. Thats generally quite obvious as...its people who only ever pop up in womens rights stuff when it comes to trans related stuff. They do not care about womens rights generally, yet suddenly do when its to do with trans people. The reverse happens also. People who give not a **** about 'social justice' or whatever, unless its a trans topic, in which case they use it to talk crap about women. Its hugely frustrating, but generally quite obvious.

I get why transpeople feel attacked. I also understand why women feel attacked. Neither should be attacked. Both deserve rights, of their own. And solutions need to be found that benefit both groups. Not one group totally ignored and silenced, in order to please the other. Its possible to do. Just seemingly, unwanted.

I'm not saying laws should be based only on good willing people because that's not possible and you stated it clearly.
I'm saying it's the way it's put across to transgender people, there's a difference. It's always "but your people are dangerous" kind of speech from some people to shut down the discussion instead of really opening it up.

When it comes to the unisex thing, I've heard it from transwomen who experienced it first hand, and I understand that it must hurt because they're mixed with the bad ones (the one who take advantage of situations like that such as robberies, sexual assault etc). It's quite devastating to them. It takes one case to put people in that box.

And obviously rights that are respectful to all :love:

[Vicky.]

Totally misunderstood that bit then, sorry D:

I get that it would be annoying and upsetting if people were always saying stuff like that. Thats kind of why I try to..be so specific when talking about this, that its not really transpeople that are the issue that I see, though it comes under the 'trans rights' argument. Its, the consequences of doing away with sex based rights, which so many transactivists seem to want, yet, transpeople themselves are less keen on that, transsexual people at least (another kind of issue is how..wide the 'umbrella' is these days, near anyone could legitimately claim to be trans when you remove sex dysphoria from the equation..and when this happens, the 'womens spaces' issue becomes even harder to deal with, if suddenly there are 500k people wanting in, instead of 5000). I..attempt to make it clear that its men who will abuse it, or general pisstakers who do not actually have dysphoria.. that are my problem, not actual transwomen, for example. Or if its about a specific person, will try to make sure I only talk about them (then get accused of being focused on one person!) make very clear that that person is my issue, and the loophole they are currently showing to the world.

FFS in these discussions before I have tied myself in knots so much I end up saying 'person with a penis' or 'female person with a gender identify of a man but who is feminine' and other ridiculous things as I have been so specific with wording that thats what I am left with and it needs to be said in order to make the point make any sense :laugh:

Its hard, to find wording sometimes to say what you mean without offending anyone. And despite what some think on here, I genuinely do not want to offend anyone.

My main point in this will always be, its possible to advance the rights of all. Without removing rights from anyone. But this will take hard discussions. Trying to prevent the discussion by shutting it down, is not helping anyone in the long run really. There are solutions, maybe not ideal solutions, but solutions better than the current ones. Its not fair, not should it be accepted, to just expect women to roll over and give up their rights. Especially not when such rights are so recently won, and honestly, still a bit flakey in some areas. Nor is it fair to expect transpeople to do nothing to advance their own situation. The two don't HAVE to clash. And needs actually cross over in some areas tbh. But..the state of things today is just crap, and helps noone and just creates resentment where there doesn't need to be resentment really.

[Beso]

When it comes to sports, the sad reality is that trans people can never compete on the same level as their gender. Trans men will never really have the same strength advantages that cis men have and trans women will have an advantage over cis women in most sports.

I don't think trans people in sports can ever really be a thing unless there's enough trans people to have them competing against each other. It's a bit exclusionary but it's the only way I can see trans men standing a chance and trans women not dominating traditional sports.

It's a **** solution but it's the only one that springs to mind.



Theres always darts and snooker and bowls

[GoldHeart]

I believe you may be thinking of Laurel Hubbard. New Zealand IIRC. Quite crap in the male category. Came out as a transwoman. And is taking records in the womens category oddly enough, despite being well past the usual peak of weightlifters, at 40+. Trouncing the younger fitter competitors.

Edit. Maybe not, read body builder as weightlifter :blush2:

Some of the transwomen competitors DO still compete in their sex class. Those are the ones I would say are brave tbh. As especially if they are on medication, they are putting themselves at a disadvantage, and will have to work a lot harder than others. The ones who decide to just start competing as women instead though, I have no time for and cannot see as anything other than cheats. Though technically they are not cheating as its 'within the rules'. They certainly have no sense of fair play.

No the person I'm talking about is Janae Marie Kroc she's American.

[Marsh.]

I wasn't specifically talking about that issue in particular, but more so about the general feel I get lately on this forum that there's a lot of heated debates around that and how we still have a long way to go before completely accepting people for their genders and sexualities without judging them or making assumptions about who is who and who loves who and what. What I said is that it really can't be that hard to accept people for who they are. I mean, why the hatred ans refusal to get educated on this topic.:shrug: That's the feel I got lately and I get it that not everybody shares that and I'm OK with that.

That's basically all I said and I wish everybody would be more open-minded and accepting of people that are marginalized and discriminated on.

Except there hasn't been any hatred. Not from the people actually engaging in the discussion, anyway.

This debate goes far far beyond "accepting differences, sexualities and genders". It's about how the rights of different people can come into conflict and can only be resolved by respecting and taking BOTH groups into account.

[Cherie]

Except there hasn't been any hatred. Not from the people actually engaging in the discussion, anyway.

This debate goes far far beyond "accepting differences, sexualities and genders". It's about how the rights of different people can come into conflict and can only be resolved by respecting and taking BOTH groups into account.

Precisely, and the irony that some of the LGBT community who fought a battle against being slurred and who had many woman standing by them in their fight are now resorting to slurs themselves to shut down debate instead of engaging in resolution is frankly mind blowing

[Captain.Remy]

Except there hasn't been any hatred. Not from the people actually engaging in the discussion, anyway.

This debate goes far far beyond "accepting differences, sexualities and genders". It's about how the rights of different people can come into conflict and can only be resolved by respecting and taking BOTH groups into account.

Precisely, and the irony that some of the LGBT community who fought a battle against being slurred and who had many woman standing by them in their fight are now resorting to slurs themselves to shut down debate instead of engaging in resolution is frankly mind blowing

And to answer again to that, the initial comment I made was not towards women but more so towards transphobic people who hide behind issues like sports or unisex toilets to be transphobic.
I meant in a more general way because there are people reading this thread that are not members. Not meaning you or women in particular. As I have said, some people have genuine concerns and want to engage in the discussion, and some just use that as an excuse.

Hence the discussion I had with Vicky later to say that both groups need to be heard and a war doesn't have to happen when it comes to both rights. It can be worked out but it's an incredibly touchy and sensitive topic on both ends. LGBT people and women always fought together for social justice, it cannot stop now and hopefully never will.

I also shared my view that lately there has been a lot of heat and intense discussions about those topics (ie The sexuality thread or whatever it's called) that can be perceived as hurtful. That's it, it doesn't get beyond that.

[Ammi]

...just to follow on to what Remy has said in the thread, there are many very interesting articles...I’m not sure if these are ‘the best’ as such because there are so many, but these are a few I read...


https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/politics/article/trans-rights

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/07/trans-rights-have-been-pitted-against-feminism-but-were-not-enemies

[Marsh.]

And to answer again to that, the initial comment I made was not towards women but more so towards transphobic people who hide behind issues like sports or unisex toilets to be transphobic.

Your comment was made about discussions on this forum. I was assuring you that, in the majority of cases, you have made incorrect assumptions about them.

I politely suggest you word things more carefully when highlighting the two main discussion points people have raised in the thread with the addendum that they are "what transphobic people hide behind" if you are not trying to insult people simply discussing the topic.

[Niamh.]

And mother's usually take their little boys into women's toilet with them for safety, a father can't do that with his daughter though if he's a single dad .I don't think most women would mind if a man brought his daughter into the womens toilets.

But yeah individual cubicles is obviously the best solution but agree with LT that space and money would be the biggest obstacle there

[Vicky.]

Ammi your first link, I genuinely cannot see how anyone can read that as anything other than a propogada piece against feminists :laugh2: Maybe I have been reading into this crap for too long now. But I have actively tried and cannot read anything in that bar 'many feminists are nasty and will not yield to my opinion when I demand it. The only right feminists are the ones who say women are not actually female people, and are certainly not oppressed, everyone should fight for MY cause, not their own. Else bigot.'

The second one is quite 'everythings fine behind the scenes, press are just going mad' which is..partially true but not totally. Certainly more honest and open than the GQ link :laugh:

[Vicky.]

Loos is the easiest part of it, always has been. Thats kind of what surprised me, when these convos turn to loos. I think most people in general, would be much happier with individual rooms with basins and such...rather than any part of it 'communal'. Loos is...just not a issue overall.

The real problems lie in the likes of prisons, refuges, sport...there are no easy aswers to those. Thats where the discussion needs to be. And its not as easy to just say 'oh, single areas..for those things.

[Cherie]

And to answer again to that, the initial comment I made was not towards women but more so towards transphobic people who hide behind issues like sports or unisex toilets to be transphobic.
I meant in a more general way because there are people reading this thread that are not members. Not meaning you or women in particular. As I have said, some people have genuine concerns and want to engage in the discussion, and some just use that as an excuse.

Hence the discussion I had with Vicky later to say that both groups need to be heard and a war doesn't have to happen when it comes to both rights. It can be worked out but it's an incredibly touchy and sensitive topic on both ends. LGBT people and women always fought together for social justice, it cannot stop now and hopefully never will.

I also shared my view that lately there has been a lot of heat and intense discussions about those topics (ie The sexuality thread or whatever it's called) that can be perceived as hurtful. That's it, it doesn't get beyond that.


But don't you see that those of us who have concerns are not able to engage as as soon as anyone puts their head above the parapet they are immediately insulted, as evidenced in this thread

[Livia]

Trans women are trans women. They are not born women, they have a Y chromosome, They don't menstruate, they can't reproduce and they've lived their formative years as males, with all the privilege that brings. That said, I believe trans women should be able to live as they like, they are worth just as much as born women, but they are different.

Women have fought for centuries not to be second class citizens, now we're third class, with our rights trailing behind not only men, but trans women too.

[Ammi]

Ammi your first link, I genuinely cannot see how anyone can read that as anything other than a propogada piece against feminists :laugh2: Maybe I have been reading into this crap for too long now. But I have actively tried and cannot read anything in that bar 'many feminists are nasty and will not yield to my opinion when I demand it. The only right feminists are the ones who say women are not actually female people, and are certainly not oppressed, everyone should fight for MY cause, not their own. Else bigot.'

The second one is quite 'everythings fine behind the scenes, press are just going mad' which is..partially true but not totally. Certainly more honest and open than the GQ link :laugh:

....:laugh:....hmmmm, that’s not how it read to me, it was more that it was looking at both ‘sides’ as it were and concluding that ...(as has been said...)...there needs to be a coming together...

[Ammi]

...I don’t see how any trans person ...(...male to female..)...would feel it in any way a ‘privilege’ to have been born male and to have lived part of their life as male...for many it would have meant extreme unhappiness and not feeling any ‘fit’...how could that in any way be thought to be a privileged life....(...obviously exclusive of any specific advantages in competitive sports, which is obviously a huge thing to be addressed and conversations to be had...)...

[Vicky.]

....:laugh:....hmmmm, that’s not how it read to me, it was more that it was looking at both ‘sides’ as it were and concluding that ...(as has been said...)...there needs to be a coming together...

I see how some could read it as that I guess. But theres not much 'both sides' in that at all. Its all...nasty feminists, be inclusive! Which reads fine to people if they..don't think that the 'be inclusive' thing is an issue, but when whats being expected to be 'inclusive' is..well female peoples sex based rights should be inclusive of people who are not of the female sex...it kind of puts a different spin on things. Everyone wants to be inclusive and nice. Or most do. I swear, if the demands were different to what they are, I would 100% be standing besides activists fighting with them. But I find it unreasonable to expect feminists to..be complicit (and even enthusiastic) in the erasure of their current rights tbh. I find it even more unreasonable to make out its feminists who are in the wrong and saying they are just being nasty and bigoted (as the first article says) for NOT conceding their rights.

NOT saying you are saying this ammi, as sometimes my posts come across wrongly. I am talking about the 'be inclusive' article. The second one, by a transwoman..at least recognizes some issues. The first is just handwaving 'nothing to see here, feminists should be kind' to me.

Its all such a shame. It really is. This is literally the very first time I have ever opposed 'progressive' politics. The issue is, I do not see it as 'progressive' at all, to deny that sex is a very important thing for women, and IMO quite simply, to ignore sex (or minimize the importance of it in history/currently really), means you simply cannot see/measure sexism in any meaningful way, let alone fight it!

[Oliver_W]

...I don’t see how any trans person ...(...male to female..)...would feel it in any way a ‘privilege’ to have been born male and to have lived part of their life as male...

Male socialisation.

It's most likely one of the biggest causes of what gets called the "pay gap", as men's socialisation gives them the extra confidence to chase that promotion or ask for that payrise, while societal expectations mean men are more likely to spend more time working.

[Ammi]

I see how some could read it as that I guess. But theres not much 'both sides' in that at all. Its all...nasty feminists, be inclusive! Which reads fine to people if they..don't think that the 'be inclusive' thing is an issue, but when whats being expected to be 'inclusive' is..well female peoples sex based rights should be inclusive of people who are not of the female sex...it kind of puts a different spin on things. Everyone wants to be inclusive and nice. Or most do. I swear, if the demands were different to what they are, I would 100% be standing besides activists fighting with them. But I find it unreasonable to expect feminists to..
and saying they are just being nasty and bigoted (as the first article says) for NOT conceding their rights.
Its all such a shame. It really is. This is literally the very first time I have ever opposed 'progressive' politics. The issue is, I do not see it as 'progressive' at all, to deny that sex is a very important thing for women, and that quite simply, to ignore sex (or minimize the importance of it in history/currently really), means you simply cannot see/measure sexism in any meaningful way, let alone fight it!


...I don’t see it as saying that, though...it’s more concluding that ‘the two sides’ need to be both understood and protected, which isn’t appearing to happening because it’s less ‘conversations being had’ and more ‘war zone’ vibe...

[Ammi]

I see how some could read it as that I guess. But theres not much 'both sides' in that at all. Its all...nasty feminists, be inclusive! Which reads fine to people if they..don't think that the 'be inclusive' thing is an issue, but when whats being expected to be 'inclusive' is..well female peoples sex based rights should be inclusive of people who are not of the female sex...it kind of puts a different spin on things. Everyone wants to be inclusive and nice. Or most do. I swear, if the demands were different to what they are, I would 100% be standing besides activists fighting with them. But I find it unreasonable to expect feminists to..be complicit (and even enthusiastic) in the erasure of their current rights tbh. I find it even more unreasonable to make out its feminists who are in the wrong and saying they are just being nasty and bigoted (as the first article says) for NOT conceding their rights.

NOT saying you are saying this ammi, as sometimes my posts come across wrongly. I am talking about the 'be inclusive' article. The second one, by a transwoman..at least recognizes some issues. The first is just handwaving 'nothing to see here, feminists should be kind' to me.

Its all such a shame. It really is. This is literally the very first time I have ever opposed 'progressive' politics. The issue is, I do not see it as 'progressive' at all, to deny that sex is a very important thing for women, and IMO quite simply, to ignore sex (or minimize the importance of it in history/currently really), means you simply cannot see/measure sexism in any meaningful way, let alone fight it!

...bib...?...ok, I guess that sometimes the same words are said or in this case, read...but those same words aren’t being heard in the same way ...and as we’re not ‘hearing the same thing’, I’ll leave it that maybe that wasn’t a good article to quote...

[Vicky.]

...I don’t see how any trans person ...(...male to female..)...would feel it in any way a ‘privilege’ to have been born male and to have lived part of their life as male...for many it would have meant extreme unhappiness and not feeling any ‘fit’...how could that in any way be thought to be a privileged life....(...obviously exclusive of any specific advantages in competitive sports, which is obviously a huge thing to be addressed and conversations to be had...)...

See this is true of transsexual people. People who feel dysphoria at their physical reality and do whatever possible to alleviate said dysphoria. Issue is, this goes WAY beyond that today. Its the 'beyond' thats causing the current problems. Without going into essays, my issue has NEVER been genuine transsexual people. Its the 'other' who have basically latched onto the whole thing as..seemingly a way to crap all over women, that are causing the issues, as the second group are being lumped in with the first group as 'disadvantaged' when really, thats far from the truth. The first group are absolutely disadvantaged and deserve empathy and understanding tbh. The second group..are the ones causing the huge majority of issues now. Feminists tend to push back against the second group, not transsexual people. Infact, from what I have seen, transsexual people seem t be against the second group as much as many feminists are..

The wants (not needs) of the second group are made out to be things that would benefit the first group. When in reality, they wouldn't, and the 'war' is infact making things MUCH worse for the first group (aswell as for women), but the second group don't care..

[Vicky.]

...bib...?...ok, I guess that sometimes the same words are said or in this case, read...but those same words aren’t being heard in the same way ...and as we’re not ‘hearing the same thing’, I’ll leave it that maybe that wasn’t a good article to quote...

Thats exactly it I think :p

[Cherie]

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

[Vicky.]

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

Quite.

But this is continually glossed over, and outright denied as a possibility, or something that should be worried about, despite many/most women (and many men too!) knowing its not just a possibility, its a definite if the potential is there. I mean, there are some who will still claim 'that will never happen' when you bring up people abusing it,despite there currently being..well examples of it having happened. Its just such nonsense at times.

It just sometimes feels like constant gaslighting. The denial that bad men exist, if they do exist they are too few in number to care about, and even if a bad man gets you, it doesnt matter as the law can deal with them, even though the law does **** all to most bad men.

Which did make me slightly, militant in such discussions in the past, though that helps noone really. I self edit to a ridiculous degree on this, both to try and not use language that might offend (though these days, even saying women is offensive) and to try and not come across as..harshly as I might otherwise. These days am used to talking in..well feminist spaces, rather than 'in the general public. so tend to use a lot of shorthand for stuff, and assume everyone knows the stuff I am talking about..and where I am coming from too. so need to edit that out also!

I am aware that sometimes I may also come across as maybe a bit..man hating too. Though I swear I do not hate men. I just am very very aware of how many bad men are out there. And honestly, sometimes I wish I wasn't as aware, life would sure be simpler.

[Beso]

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

I agree with this post cherie, it's just so exhausting bothering about what other people get up to.

[Captain.Remy]

The other ironic thing is that the issues woman have are not about transwomen at all but about predatory men who will seek to take advantage of loopholes whether that be financial or otherwise

most people really don't care how others choose to live their lives, we are too busy with our own

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. :shrug: It's a tough daily struggle.

[Vicky.]

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. :shrug: It's a tough daily struggle.

I do get this point, and agree some use it that way.

I feel sometimes feminists are written off with these people though for using examples of 'obvious conclusions' that they warned of(ie abusive men who claim to be trans, NOT transpeople) as..well we said it would happen, here is an example. And another. And another. And another. After being told it would NEVER HAPPEN and that to even consider it happening was manhating.

I think theres a world of difference between 'look, here is an example of what we said, and why that example slipped through the net so to speak' and 'look, this one transperson doing this means all are transpeople are bad!!!'

Though the difference is often..ignored. And made out to be the same thing. Sometimes purposely in honesty, though not always. Not sure if am explaining that right though..

Nuance.

[Jessica.]

Loads of women are predators and molesters but most people will be abused by someone they know personally, the whole abusive man dressed as a woman predator thing is almost unheard of compared to cis presenting abusers, I don't see it as an argument.

[Cherie]

Most people yes, except the homophobics, transphobics etc who always have something really negative to say about those people and base their stereotypes or fears on a few "bad" cases (ie transwomen issue in unisex toilets etc) unfortunately.
Hence education is key, and that applies to all communities really.

That's a shame really. Thankfully it's not most people, but it still hurts targeted communities, specifically when social media amplifies those phobic voices. :shrug: It's a tough daily struggle.

Yes it can be a struggle for many including women so don't write off our struggles, its not a competition, some straight men are struggling as well, labelling people as big terfs or whatever is not the way to end struggles, its just creates tension, animosity and more struggle

[Cherie]

Loads of women are predators and molesters but most people will be abused by someone they know personally, the whole abusive man dressed as a woman predator thing is almost unheard of compared to cis presenting abusers, I don't see it as an argument.

Not in this context, for instance transmen in sport, they are not going to worry men born as men if they compete against them in most physical sports now are they?

there aren't many (if any) refuges for abused men?

[Vicky.]

But women abuse too type arguments..just don't work. Yeah, some women do. That doesn't mean we remove safeguards that stop abuse from men though. Thats just..nonsense. And a rather dangerous way to think

Yes more people will be abused by someone they know. This does not mean we make stranger attacks easier.

I also challenge 'loads of women' in sexual assault/rape type situations.The risk of a female being dodgy is.. minuscule, in comparison to a male. Not non existant. But..much less likely.


That said^, it also doesn't mean we should leave transwomen at the mercy of men either. But the solutions, simply cannot just place women at risk. There are solutions that help transwomen while still safeguarding women. Yet, such solutions are bigoted to even try to find. Why is this?

[Vicky.]

there aren't many (if any) refuges for abused men?

There have been, but demand is not as high so they tend to fold. Theres a fair few mixed sex refuges though. Not sure if male only ones exist now. Refuges ar very much supply and demand.

Bu the mixed sex ones are not 'the problem'. The 'female only' ones are the bigoted ones, and are as such relentlessly targeted. As theres no conceivable situation where a female might need to be surrounded by female people, where even seeing a male person could trigger a fear response.

(Search vancouver rape relief for a very current example of this targetting. Despite 3 (? something like that, possibly more) other rape crisis centres in the area being mixed sex, one female only one existing was deemed a problem. And has had nonestop abuse since, including defunding for refusing to admit male bodied people, or accept male people as STAFF. Abuse includes dead rats nailed to the door. True story) (The staff issue is here, summarized anyway - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberly_Nixon_Rape_Relief_case Presented without comment.)

Time to leave again now anyway. Threads come the full circle once 'but women abuse too' is trotted out in comparison to the 98% of sex attacks by males. But to compare female abusers to males, and think its anywhere near the same league, is pure fantasy.

[GoldHeart]

I don't think most women would mind if a man brought his daughter into the womens toilets.

But yeah individual cubicles is obviously the best solution but agree with LT that space and money would be the biggest obstacle there

But Niamh how many dad's would go into a woman's toilet with his child , I've never seen it happen. They feel out of place and awkward about it as they don't want to offend .

And we all know if this was about a trans man being able to use male toilets , I doubt they'd be a big fuss .

And some women cross boundaries and go into men's toilet's , I remember seeing a nightclub documentary about toilet attendants and she ignored him when he told her she shouldn't be in there .

[Niamh.]

But Niamh how many dad's would go into a woman's toilet with his child , I've never seen it happen. They feel out of place and awkward about it as they don't want to offend .



And we all know if this was about a trans man being able to use male toilets , I doubt they'd be a big fuss .



And some women cross boundaries and go into men's toilet's , I remember seeing a nightclub documentary about toilet attendants and she ignored him when he told her she shouldn't be in there .OK? I'm not sure what any of that really has to do with the debate either way [emoji23]

Sorry just your point about transmen though, generally speaking women are not much of a threat to men, this is why women's spaces are more focused on than mens in this debate

[GoldHeart]

OK? I'm not sure what any of that really has to do with the debate either way [emoji23]

I was just replying to what you said , it's still on topic . The point I was making is people will always feel more uncomfortable when it comes to women's spaces and female toilets, more so than male spaces and men's toilets .

There was a trans woman prisoner who still got sent to a male prison despite everything.

[Niamh.]

I was just replying to what you said , it's still on topic . The point I was making is people will always feel more uncomfortable when it comes to women's spaces and female toilets, more so than male spaces and men's toilets .

There was a trans woman prisoner who still got sent to a male prison despite everything.Of course they will because unfortunately men have always been more of a threat to women than the other way round.

Yes there was a similar case in Ireland, its madness

[user104658]

I'm sorry but the vast, vast majority of physical abusers are male... Like it's not even comparable. Everyone should be aware of that, it doesn't just affect women... It's men abusing women, men abusing transwomen, men in gay relationships abusing other men... It just... Is.

That's not to say that women can't be abusive or that men can't experience abuse but the vast majority of that abuse is of a psychological/coercive nature and there's no real physical threat.

And that's not even saying that one is necessarily "worse" than the other; psychological abuse can be devastating.

HOWEVER, one requires literal safe physical spaces and one requires purely emotional/practical intervention so it's not really part of the discussion. When abusive men come after their partners for leaving, those partners all too often end up raped, assaulted, or dead. It's offensive to make it a direct comparison to be honest.

[Marsh.]

Loads of women are predators and molesters but most people will be abused by someone they know personally, the whole abusive man dressed as a woman predator thing is almost unheard of compared to cis presenting abusers, I don't see it as an argument.

Nobody's talking about trans abusers. They're talking about abusers taking advantage of loopholes. Cis men fully included in that.

[GoldHeart]

I'm sorry but the vast, vast majority of physical abusers are male... Like it's not even comparable. Everyone should be aware of that, it doesn't just affect women... It's men abusing women, men abusing transwomen, men in gay relationships abusing other men... It just... Is.

That's not to say that women can't be abusive or that men can't experience abuse but the vast majority of that abuse is of a psychological/coercive nature and there's no real physical threat.

And that's not even saying that one is necessarily "worse" than the other; psychological abuse can be devastating.

HOWEVER, one requires literal safe physical spaces and one requires purely emotional/practical intervention so it's not really part of the discussion. When abusive men come after their partners for leaving, those partners all too often end up raped, assaulted, or dead. It's offensive to make it a direct comparison to be honest.

That's why I think more private cubicles is the way forward like with disable toilets, but I don't think many places will do that.

Gyms definitely won't , they'll always have men's & women's changing rooms. So people will always feel uncomfortable .

[Oliver_W]

That's why I think more private cubicles is the way forward like with disable toilets, but I don't think many places will do that.

Gyms definitely won't , they'll always have men's & women's changing rooms. So people will always feel uncomfortable .

Well of course changing room should be separated by biological sex. A male has no place in a women's changing room, unless he's mopping the floors out of hours.

[Elliot]

But women abuse too type arguments..just don't work. Yeah, some women do. That doesn't mean we remove safeguards that stop abuse from men though. Thats just..nonsense. And a rather dangerous way to think


So why should we remove safeguards for trans people because there are abusive cis men

[Oliver_W]

So why should we remove safeguards for trans people because there are abusive cis men

No-one's said such safeguards should be removed. But sacrificing sex-based safeguards for gender identity essentially removes safeguards for women.

[Cherie]

So why should we remove safeguards for trans people because there are abusive cis men

Where has that been suggested on the thread?

[Captain.Remy]

No-one's said such safeguards should be removed. But sacrificing sex-based safeguards for gender identity essentially removes safeguards for women.

If you consider transwomen are not women and you're basing that on the consideration that only biology determines a sex/gender.

But biology or the body you're born in or genitalia or physical characteristics are not the only components of defining sex/gender.

Look at how many countries that no longer require sex reassignment surgeries as a condition for a gender change on legal documents (out of those, some still require a person to be childless or unmarried; some require hormone therapy but not SRS).
Do you mean they're all wrong and put women at risk?
If I follow the logic to only consider biological characteristics, same transwomen who went through surgery must still be denied access to women's toilets?

I'm not trying to argue here, I just don't follow the logic because it's always the "transgender people have different biological characteristics" that is thrown at them as if they didn't know that already in an attempt to either not be accepting or not moving forward in the discussion, or both. Gender goes way beyond that.

For instance, The World Health Organization and other institutions issued a joint statement in 2014, noting that the requirement to undergo sterilization surgeries as a prerequisite to receiving gender-affirmative treatment and gender-marker changes "run counter to respect for bodily integrity, self-determination and human dignity, and can cause and perpetuate discrimination against transgender and intersex persons."

And so on the basis that transwomen are women and a vast majority of them is not meant to be harmful to say "natural born women" in same sex places, I'm pretty sure a common ground can be found and a war between womens rights and trans rights doesn't have to happen. Both have been allies for so long.

PS: I mention transwomen here because it seems to be a bigger issue than transmen whom are seen as less dangerous in the context of unisex toilets or same sex places for instance.

[Niamh.]

Only biology does decide sex though Remy. You're speaking like sex and gender are the same thing. The truth is women have always been discriminated against/at a disadvantage because of their sex because of their biology, thats an absolute fact, not a matter of opinion

[Captain.Remy]

I don't recall saying they are not being discriminated against? That's not what I meant.

I specifically say sex and gender in the same sentence because that's the feel I got from reading some comments here and out there that biology defines both...which it doesn't.

Sex is male or female, gender being man or woman. And also everything in between (intersex or people with a difference of sexual development for instance)
Some believe genitals determine sex, with males having penises and females having vaginas. However, this definition excludes many cases.
Trans people often have chromosomes that don’t “match” their sex. A transgender woman, for example, can be female but still have XY chromosomes.

So just basing sex and/or gender just on the biological aspect of it is risky and counter-productive. Sex may be far more complex than what the traditional male-female binary accounts for.

Again, not arguing or calling people names. I'm trying to understand some logic here (ie should transwomen who went through surgery must still be denied access to women's toilets? etc)

[Oliver_W]

A transgender woman, for example, can be female

No, transwomen are male.

[Marsh.]

If you consider transwomen are not women and you're basing that on the consideration that only biology determines a sex/gender.


No. Biology determines sex. Gender is a separate issue.

Changing rooms/sports are separated by sex.

[Withano]

It’s a good idea as long as there is a system in place that qualifies as a procedure for identifying. It can’t be a snap of the fingers kinda thing. I wanna see a few years of medically invested interest first or something similar.

[Withano]

Only biology does decide sex though Remy. You're speaking like sex and gender are the same thing. The truth is women have always been discriminated against/at a disadvantage because of their sex because of their biology, thats an absolute fact, not a matter of opinion

Transwomen would also be welcome to male facilities. This isn’t a woman vs man thing. This is just justice to those forced to be part of an area they feel as if they don’t belong in.

[Captain.Remy]

No. Biology determines sex. Gender is a separate issue.

Changing rooms/sports are separated by sex.

So to you a transwomen who went through sex reassignment surgery (if she decides to do so, because it's not even mandatory in the UK anylonger) still should not be able to go in womens toilets and locker rooms?
Meaning that she is fully legally a woman but still has to go into mens toilets because she was originally born into a man's body. Just wondering.

[Marsh.]

So to you a transwomen who went through sex reassignment surgery (if she decides to do so, because it's not even mandatory in the UK anylonger) still should not be able to go in womens toilets and locker rooms?

It's not really for me to make that decision as I am a man and it does not affect me in the slightest.

I would say someone who has undergone a full transition via surgery is a completely different idea to "self ID" which is becoming more and more prevalent. It's this "self ID" which opens itself up for easy manipulation and is a danger to both cis women and transwomen.

If I had to come up with the solution, the most common sense approach would be individual bathroom stalls so that everyone is catered for and has their safety and privacy prioritised. That actually takes into account all groups of people, rather than prioritising one over another.

Edit -

Meaning that she is fully legally a woman but still has to go into mens toilets because she was originally born into a man's body. Just wondering.

I don't think anyone has suggested that because women want to protect their own sex-based rights that it automatically means putting transwomen in men's locker rooms. That's just your assumption.

[Niamh.]

So to you a transwomen who went through sex reassignment surgery (if she decides to do so, because it's not even mandatory in the UK anylonger) still should not be able to go in womens toilets and locker rooms?
Meaning that she is fully legally a woman but still has to go into mens toilets because she was originally born into a man's body. Just wondering.I wouldn't have an issue with a transwoman who has had the surgery using female changing rooms, I would have an issue with someone with male parts using female changing rooms. The biggest issue is self ID really which is wide open for abuse

[Niamh.]

It's not really for me to make that decision as I am a man and it does not affect me in the slightest.



I would say someone who has undergone a full transition via surgery is a completely different idea to "self ID" which is becoming more and more prevalent. It's this "self ID" which opens itself up for easy manipulation and is a danger to both cis women and transwomen.



If I had to come up with the solution, the most common sense approach would be individual bathroom stalls so that everyone is catered for and has their safety and privacy prioritised. That actually takes into account all groups of people, rather than prioritising one over another.Yes absolutely

[Captain.Remy]

I don't think anyone has suggested that because women want to protect their own sex-based rights that it automatically means putting transwomen in men's locker rooms. That's just your assumption.

And I haven't suggested that either. Just wondering and asking a question because there seems to be a difference to some people whether transgender people went through surgery or not, which in many countries is not required.

[Marsh.]

And I haven't suggested that either. Just wondering and asking a question because there seems to be a difference to some people whether transgender people went through surgery or not, which in many countries is not required.

Well, that's exactly what has kickstarted the discussions over the last few years, including the JK Rowling controversy.

AFAIK, and correct me if I'm wrong, but transwomen ALREADY use women's facilities and there is (aside from your transphobic minority) no issue with that. The issue is now with men "self ID-ing" as transwomen. Which isn't about transwomen at all, but about how it's open to abuse by men.

[Captain.Remy]

I wouldn't have an issue with a transwomen who has had the surgery using female changing rooms, I would have an issue with someone with male parts using female changing rooms. The biggest issue is self ID really which is wide open for abuse

It might be wide open for abuse indeed and your concerns are legit. And really having worked with transgender people in different LGBT+ charities for many years, nobody (or almost) would go through all the discrimination, all the stigma, the pain, the attacks etc "just to be abuse the system".

It's incredibly hard to be trans these days (and so is being a woman in so many cases unfortunately), and some feel more comfortable not going under surgery while some think it's acceptable to them.
Regulations around the world tend to follow the principle of not having surgery (but still having a medical check etc) to proceed to legal change.

That's just what I am saying, that a few cases of abuse should not just close the discussion completely in the eyes of officials whereas many solutions can be found. Unisex toilets with cubicles are a good example of that.

[user104658]

To be fair I'm not really on board when it comes to actual reassignment surgery being "a requirement", as it's a major body modification and not a simple procedure at all, I'd stop short of that in terms of what should be considered transition. I do think there should be a robust process otherwise, though. I know that's often not the most popular stance and it's often compared to things like, "what if people said that about homosexuality?" but it's really not directly comparable at all, specifically because of the things being discussed (such as access to sex-segregated spaces).

Do I imagine there are large numbers of people out there who would go through an entire transition process with abusing the system in mind, or to get at ex partners in refuges? No, that would be utterly insane, and if someone is that far gone then really there are bigger things to worry about with them.

But do I think if it's possible to simply declare one's gender and then be granted immediate access to women's spaces, a LOT of predatory men will do just that? Honestly, yes, I am utterly certain that they will.

I actually feel slightly envious of people who think that the sort of mindset that would be required for that is "vanishingly rare" ... I wish I still believed that about the world. It is not rare, at all, and you would be absolutely gobsmacked at the number of abusers out there who go to far greater lengths than that for access... everywhere, every day.

[user104658]

I think it's important to note that very few people are saying "Transpeople are dangerous pervs!!", and certainly no one here. It's more just pointing out the hard reality that individuals who are NOT trans will happily take advantage of trans rights if it is at all possible to do so, and so knowing that, caution becomes absolutely essential. And I have serious questions for anyone who is willing to ignore real-world risks or even refuse to consider them.

[Captain.Remy]

I think it's important to note that very few people are saying "Transpeople are dangerous pervs!!", and certainly no one here. It's more just pointing out the hard reality that individuals who are NOT trans will happily take advantage of trans rights if it is at all possible to do so, and so knowing that, caution becomes absolutely essential. And I have serious questions for anyone who is willing to ignore real-world risks or even refuse to consider them.

Unfortunately it's more than you can imagine, or even I imagined before working in LGBT+ shelters and charities. It's scary, the transphobia is real out there. People getting attacked or killed for living true to who they really are is always hearbreaking.
I'm not trans, I'm a happy cis man but I feel for them or for any minority out there that must face so much hatred on daily basis.

[Beso]

Unfortunately it's more than you can imagine, or even I imagined before working in LGBT+ shelters and charities. It's scary, the transphobia is real out there. People getting attacked or killed for living true to who they really are is always hearbreaking.
I'm not trans, I'm a happy cis man but I feel for them or for any minority out there that must face so much hatred on daily basis.

So do fat people...

[Beso]

What I mean by that is that there will be fat vulnerable women being physically and emotionally attacked by weasly little men ***** on an hourly basis.

[Ammi]

...I hadn’t realised that any plans in the U.K. to allow Self ID have been dropped by the government... which hopefully will help to allay some of the safe guarding concerns, largely focused on Self IDing....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/trans-self-id-gender-recognition-act-lgbt-rights-b528630.html

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/22/uk-government-drops-gender-self-identification-plan-for-trans-people

[Elliot]

8yF75JMae8A

[Beso]

8yF75JMae8A

If she looks so cute in the dress, why hide it with her hair?

[Beso]

What does turf mean?

[Beso]

Intersexuality..

Mr Biden likes children and other things and has now covered his back.

[Marsh.]

Let's not with you bringing child abuse into another thread that is not relevant.

[user104658]

Unfortunately it's more than you can imagine, or even I imagined before working in LGBT+ shelters and charities. It's scary, the transphobia is real out there. People getting attacked or killed for living true to who they really are is always hearbreaking.

I'm not trans, I'm a happy cis man but I feel for them or for any minority out there that must face so much hatred on daily basis.

I agree but do your sympathies only extend to minority groups? Because you seem to have far less sympathy for women... Who are also attacked and killed, and facing unwarranted hatred, not for how they are choosing to live but simply for being women...

Honestly this isn't something I was always super aware of but once your eyes are open to it, it's absolutely everywhere.

Obviously I'm not saying that anyone should feel that way but I do find it utterly ludicrous when I see trans rights people openly attacking women as though they're coming from a place of privilege simply because they're "not a minority group".

[Ammi]

...there really is nothing in Remy’s mindset or stance that would indicate any lack of sympathy for women, none at all...just because he’s related some personal experiences of having spent much time working in LGBT shelters with abuse victims and his experiences aren’t that ‘trans abuse’ is a rare thing...he shows much consideration/thought/sympathy etc for all people with this topic...(..and all topics tbh...)...

[Captain.Remy]

I agree but do your sympathies only extend to minority groups? Because you seem to have far less sympathy for women... Who are also attacked and killed, and facing unwarranted hatred, not for how they are choosing to live but simply for being women...

Honestly this isn't something I was always super aware of but once your eyes are open to it, it's absolutely everywhere.

Obviously I'm not saying that anyone should feel that way but I do find it utterly ludicrous when I see trans rights people openly attacking women as though they're coming from a place of privilege simply because they're "not a minority group".

You really read something that isn't there and that's sad. I really don't know what to answer to that tbh.:shrug:

When I say I feel for minorities, it doesn't mean I'm not feeling anything for women who are also under constant threat and abuse too.
But next time I will make a full exhaustive list of things I have sympathy for and put it in my signature so you are not confused anylonger if that helps.

[Captain.Remy]

...there really is nothing in Remy’s mindset or stance that would indicate any lack of sympathy for women, none at all...just because he’s related some personal experiences of having spent much time working in LGBT shelters with abuse victims and his experiences aren’t that ‘trans abuse’ is a rare thing...he shows much consideration/thought/sympathy etc for all people with this topic...(..and all topics tbh...)...

Thanks Ammi :love:
And I wish I would give some time to work in charity centers and shelters that help women too but you can't do everything at once. That however doesn't mean I'm only defending one group over the other. Like I said before, transgender people and women always fought together for equal justice, but some people really like to put both groups against each other.

[Oliver_W]

What does turf mean?

It's a slur typically aimed at feminists who want to preserve women's sex-based rights.

[user104658]

...there really is nothing in Remy’s mindset or stance that would indicate any lack of sympathy for women, none at all...just because he’s related some personal experiences of having spent much time working in LGBT shelters with abuse victims and his experiences aren’t that ‘trans abuse’ is a rare thing...he shows much consideration/thought/sympathy etc for all people with this topic...(..and all topics tbh...)...

You really read something that isn't there and that's sad. I really don't know what to answer to that tbh.:shrug:

When I say I feel for minorities, it doesn't mean I'm not feeling anything for women who are also under constant threat and abuse too.
But next time I will make a full exhaustive list of things I have sympathy for and put it in my signature so you are not confused anylonger if that helps.

I tend to I base my opinions on the entire thread and not just one post, and as it appears that memories are short on this one, what I said above relates first and foremost to this post below, but also several others on this thread:



Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard.:shrug: Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

This was at the time - and still is - dismissive of, and lacks empathy for, the women expressing concerns on this topic... hence what I said above: I wish you had put as much thought into having sympathy for the women who have concerns for their safety as you have into having sympathy for the people who are angry at them for that.

[user104658]

It's a slur typically aimed at feminists who want to preserve women's sex-based rights.

It was originally aimed at those who were genuinely hateful/critical of the whole concept of transexuality but, yes, sadly it's now thrown around quite freely at anyone who doesn't express full compliance and agreement with one zeitgeist on the issue. Not uncommon for similar words, I guess.

[Captain.Remy]

This was at the time - and still is - dismissive of, and lacks empathy for, the women expressing concerns on this topic... hence what I said above: I wish you had put as much thought into having sympathy for the women who have concerns for their safety as you have into having sympathy for the people who are angry at them for that.

And again, as you may have read afterwards, I said it was not aimed at WOMEN. I like repeating myself so it's fine: It was aimed at transphobic people. So hopefully that clicks in. Have a nice saturday :love:

[Josy]

I have to agree with TS.

On first impressions when Remy posted in the thread (first comment especially if memory serves me right) came across as very unsympathetic towards women with genuine concerns about our rights.

[Captain.Remy]

Well it looks like whatever I'm saying I will always be seen as someone who doesn't care about women when I was just replying to Jessica's comment that many people (and not here on TIBB) use excuses such as sports or unisex toilets to hide their transphobia.
And again, not giving names are pointing at people. I've explained it enough in previous pages.
I also speak more about trans people's point of view because that's the people I work with in charities and other places, yet that doesn't mean I could care less about women.

And once again, I think I explained later in the thread that I fully understand genuine concerns from women and everything can be worked out in the end.
I don't think I can make myself anymore clear. But if you feel I'm a misogynist piece of crap, it's on you. When I say I feel for minorities, people say I don't feel for women. If I say I feel for women, they will say it's not true. So really I should be going on about my day and go to my local charity as I usually do on saturdays afternoons to help people who got thrown out of their parents houses for being gay, trans and many other things people don't like. Have a nice day everybody.

[Niamh.]

Since I was the one Jessica was presumably referring to when she mentioned sport, are you saying you were referring to me then?

[Ammi]

...it’s not dismissive of one thing to consider another, it’s inclusive of...as has been said throughout not only this thread but in others, conversations are good to be had and to have those have those conversations...?...then seeing different viewpoints is essential also...I’m absolutely a feminist but being a feminist doesn’t mean that I don’t consider different layers of that in some way I stop being a feminist in considering from a view of transgender in this...because Remy put forward his own personal experience which directly related to a feeling that ‘trans abuse’ was quite rare and which is not his experience to be true, does not in any way suggest that he has no thought or less thought for females...as he’s said, he has no personal experience of women’s shelters/charities...so he’s offering the personal experiences he does have, which haven’t before been offered in the thread so are very welcome, obviously...

[Captain.Remy]

Since I was the one Jessica was presumably referring to when she mentioned sport, are you saying you were referring to me then?

No Niamh, If I'm not mistaken she didn't quote anybody, therefore it was not aimed at you personally.

[Ammi]

...and tbf, TS...you picked out a recent post and directly commented on it, which completely manipulated what was actually said...

[Niamh.]

No Niamh, If I'm not mistaken she didn't quote anybody, therefore it was not aimed at you personally.I'm pretty sure Jessica's comment was aimed at me. Yours might not have been but hers clearly was

[user104658]

And again, as you may have read afterwards, I said it was not aimed at WOMEN. I like repeating myself so it's fine: It was aimed at transphobic people. So hopefully that clicks in. Have a nice saturday :love:

It was dismissive of women who think there are concerns when it comes to clashes with women's rights - and in this post, you are still suggesting that those women are "transphobic people". Your opinion hasn't changed, you're saying the same now as you were on page one, and as such my opinion hasn't changed either: You have more concern for progressing trans rights than you do for considering the rights and safety of women that might be eroded in the process. That might be because "you don't think they will be" but that's not really relevant, as we're talking about sympathy, which doesn't require agreement. When you say "it wasn't aimed at women" you mean "...because it wasn't aimed at the many women who happen to agree with me on this topic". It was aimed squarely at the many women who disagree with you, it dismissed their concerns without even an attempt at discussion, it (frankly) with "relax and love it" told them that they should keep their mouths shut. This is classic misogyny whether you can see it or not - and if you can't - and you really do see yourself as appreciating both sides of this debate - all I can do is suggest you think about it.

[Nicky91]

the one thing i do know as for trans people in sports

that they gotten criticism over ''unfair advantages'' has been in various media few years ago

NlCbA6GMtiA


https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/04/04/transgender-athletes-why-fair-compete/

and here 10 trans athletes explain why it is fair for them to compete

[Captain.Remy]

I'm pretty sure Jessica's comment was aimed at me. Yours might not have been but hers clearly was

Maybe it was, I don't know. I'm not in her head. I can't be held accountable for that. I suggest you talk to her about it? I don't know what else to tell you about it :shrug:

[user104658]

...and tbf, TS...you picked out a recent post and directly commented on it, which completely manipulated what was actually said...

I replied to the most recent comment because that's how discussions happen... I didn't things from weeks ago or other threads into it... the discussion is still about the conversations that have taken place in this thread?

[Ammi]

...anyways, as ‘empathy’ has been mentioned and we’ve had this conversation before, TS....I understand that you’ve had a complete turnaround in your views on this related subject and that’s completely fine, obviously that there are things in life that can cause us to have those u turns of mindsets, it’s good that we’re open to that...but because you’ve had a very firm mindset of ‘both sides’...(...I know we’ve had this conversation before...)...you’re in the privileged position of also having an understanding of a now differing view, which was once an aligning view...and yet you show very little, if any tolerance or understanding for a mindset you yourself once had not so long ago...that to me shows a lack of ‘empathy’ that I would have expected and hoped to have been, to at least understand...as Remy has said...have a good Saturday....

[Niamh.]

the one thing i do know as for trans people in sports

that they gotten criticism over ''unfair advantages'' has been in various media few years ago

NlCbA6GMtiA


https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/04/04/transgender-athletes-why-fair-compete/

and here 10 trans athletes explain why it is fair for them to competeThe athletes themselves are explaining why it isn't unfair? Well, that will be very unbiased and fact based I'm sure. . .

[Captain.Remy]

It was dismissive of women who think there are concerns when it comes to clashes with women's rights - and in this post, you are still suggesting that those women are "transphobic people". Your opinion hasn't changed, you're saying the same now as you were on page one, and as such my opinion hasn't changed either: You have more concern for progressing trans rights than you do for considering the rights and safety of women that might be eroded in the process. That might be because "you don't think they will be" but that's not really relevant, as we're talking about sympathy, which doesn't require agreement. When you say "it wasn't aimed at women" you mean "...because it wasn't aimed at the many women who happen to agree with me on this topic". It was aimed squarely at the many women who disagree with you, it dismissed their concerns without even an attempt at discussion, it (frankly) with "relax and love it" told them that they should keep their mouths shut. This is classic misogyny whether you can see it or not - and if you can't - and you really do see yourself as appreciating both sides of this debate - all I can do is suggest you think about it.

Everybody can disagree with me, it's fine and that's debate and we love it.
It was aimed at transphobic people, and again, not towards not-transphobic people who have genuine concerns about the topic.
Point, blank and period. You were not in my head when I wrote it, you seem to know better what I meant and felt. It probably came out wrong, but I suppose you won't see any differently. If you don't trust me, then it is life and so be it. Have a lovely saturday :love:

[Niamh.]

The athletes themselves are explaining why it isn't unfair? Well, that will be very unbiased and fact based I'm sure. . .And that cyclist Rachel McKinnon is a nasty piece of work, clearly actually hates women

[user104658]

...anyways, as ‘empathy’ has been mentioned and we’ve had this conversation before, TS....I understand that you’ve had a complete turnaround in your views on this related subject and that’s completely fine, obviously that there are things in life that can cause us to have those u turns of mindsets, it’s good that we’re open to that...but because you’ve had a very firm mindset of ‘both sides’...(...I know we’ve had this conversation before...)...you’re in the privileged position of also having an understanding of a now differing view, which was once an aligning view...and yet you show very little, if any tolerance or understanding for a mindset you yourself once had not so long ago...that to me shows a lack of ‘empathy’ that I would have expected and hoped to have been, to at least understand...as Remy has said...have a good Saturday....

My mindset on it changed through robust conversation and having my ideas challenged and my lack of understanding put under a spotlight, Ammi... as anything does... they didn't change via people pussy-footing around the issue or by people avoiding challenging things I had to say about it with a shrug and an "each to their own" because of some misplaced fear of "hurting someone's feelings" or "avoiding discomfort". If I point out something wrong that I think I see in someone's argument and that person thinks I've gotten it totally wrong then there's no need for them to feel hurt or uncomfortable. If I say something that makes someone feel hurt or uncomfortable then they should have a think about why.

I understand that you don't like conflict but frankly it's not really your place to shut it down when it's actually still within the realms of completely acceptable debate; no one is being personally attacked here, ideas are being challenged.

[Oliver_W]

The athletes themselves are explaining why it isn't unfair? Well, that will be very unbiased and fact based I'm sure. . .

Tbh at this point I think Pink News is a psy-ops aiming to make normal LGBT look like crazy weirdos...

[user104658]

Everybody can disagree with me, it's fine and that's debate and we love it.
It was aimed at transphobic people, and again, not towards not-transphobic people who have genuine concerns about the topic.
Point, blank and period. You were not in my head when I wrote it, you seem to know better what I meant and felt. It probably came out wrong, but I suppose you won't see any differently. If you don't trust me, then it is life and so be it. Have a lovely saturday :love:

But Remy... "Nobody is being transphobic - just relax and love it."

Maybe you can see it better flipped, I don't know.

Your post was aimed at people who you personally have decided are in your opinion transphobic, not an objective category of "transphobic people"... and not aimed at people who have concerns that you believe to be genuine, not an objective category of people with genuine concerns.

I think that's an important distinction to make and the root of the disagreement here, but other than that I'm sure we can leave it there.

[Ammi]

My mindset on it changed through robust conversation and having my ideas challenged and my lack of understanding put under a spotlight, Ammi... as anything does... they didn't change via people pussy-footing around the issue or by people avoiding challenging things I had to say about it with a shrug and an "each to their own" because of some misplaced fear of "hurting someone's feelings" or "avoiding discomfort". If I point out something wrong that I think I see in someone's argument and that person thinks I've gotten it totally wrong then there's no need for them to feel hurt or uncomfortable. If I say something that makes someone feel hurt or uncomfortable then they should have a think about why.

I understand that you don't like conflict but frankly it's not really your place to shut it down when it's actually still within the realms of completely acceptable debate; no one is being personally attacked here, ideas are being challenged.


...I’m not shutting anything down or anyone down by suggesting that you at least of anyone, would have some understanding of both sides because your stance has been firmly fixed and stated on both sides...I explained that really clearly that it’s hard for me to fathom what is appearing as a complete lack of tolerance or understanding the view you’re now so vehemently opposed to the point that you’re using language like gobsmacked and naive etc...(...those exact descriptives might be incorrect but it’s a similar vein...)...I also commended a change in view when something has caused a view to be reconsidered, that’s why discussions.../...absorbing others is so important....and liking or disliking conflict has no bearing whatsoever, I don’t ‘pussy foot’ around either, hence when I’ve felt I’ve wanted to comment in the thread and how I have commented...

[user104658]

...I’m not shutting anything down or anyone down by suggesting that you at least of anyone, would have some understanding of both sides because your stance has been firmly fixed and stated on both sides...I explained that really clearly that it’s hard for me to fathom what is appearing as a complete lack of tolerance or understanding the view you’re now so vehemently opposed to the point that you’re using language like gobsmacked and naive etc...(...those exact descriptives might be incorrect but it’s a similar vein...)...I also commended a change in view when something has caused a view to be reconsidered, that’s why discussions.../...absorbing others is so important....and liking or disliking conflict has no bearing whatsoever, I don’t ‘pussy foot’ around either, hence when I’ve felt I’ve wanted to comment in the thread and how I have commented...

I just don't really know what your point is Ammi. That having an insight into both sides of the argument should mean that I temper my opinions now, or pretend not to see the flaws in thinking that I think is flawed? I understand why people might not see the conflict between trans rights and womens rights because I once thought similar... because I hadn't seen enough of the effect it's having, the rhetoric around it, the verbal personal attacks on women with concerns... I was naive to it. Maybe you're taking that as being a personal insult? It's OK to say you think someone is being naive in a debate Ammi... surely especially if you can see that you were similarly naive in the past.

We agree that discussions and absorbing the opinions of others is important, which is why I find it odd that you're suggesting I should temper my current opinions, or offer a "both sides argument" to incorporate a point of view that I now entirely disagree with :think:. I'm also not lacking tolerance, nor refusing to take on board new opinions on this thread... I just haven't actually seen any opinion here that's new to me. If someone were to present an alternative way of looking at things, I am as always entirely open to giving that some thought.

[Captain.Remy]

But Remy... "Nobody is being transphobic - just relax and love it."

Maybe you can see it better flipped, I don't know.

Your post was aimed at people who you personally have decided are in your opinion transphobic, not an objective category of "transphobic people"... and not aimed at people who have concerns that you believe to be genuine, not an objective category of people with genuine concerns.

I think that's an important distinction to make and the root of the disagreement here, but other than that I'm sure we can leave it there.

The root of disagreement is that, again, I was not mentionning anybody specifically ON THIS GOD DAMN THREAD OR FORUM but it was somehow decided otherwise. How can that be any clearer? God damn it. You just do not accept any of my justification.

Transhobia is very clear with clear motives. All I said to transphobic people is: try to be more accepting and don't be threatened by transpeople.
Again, not at people are NOT transphobic and have genuine concerns about it like most lovely members on this forum.
You know what, next time I will keep my message of tolerance and loving each other to myself since it's a big problem. Can I just add that some people read this forum, member or not, and I thought it was cute to tell some of them who MIGHT be transphobic (in accordance to objective facts) that transpeople are not to be worried about and there's no reason to be fearful.

And also, just because I work with LGBT+ communities does not mean I'm insensitive to what women feel. I had very interesting conversations with Vicky last night and other people about surgeries, access to same sex places etc Trying to dig deeper into it. I guess that's all for nothing.

I have to go to the local shelter, have a lovely weekend everyone! And love each other :love:

[Ammi]

I just don't really know what your point is Ammi. That having an insight into both sides of the argument should mean that I temper my opinions now, or pretend not to see the flaws in thinking that I think is flawed? I understand why people might not see the conflict between trans rights and womens rights because I once thought similar... because I hadn't seen enough of the effect it's having, the rhetoric around it, the verbal personal attacks on women with concerns... I was naive to it. Maybe you're taking that as being a personal insult? It's OK to say you think someone is being naive in a debate Ammi... surely especially if you can see that you were similarly naive in the past.

We agree that discussions and absorbing the opinions of others is important, which is why I find it odd that you're suggesting I should temper my current opinions, or offer a "both sides argument" to incorporate a point of view that I now entirely disagree with :think:. I'm also not lacking tolerance, nor refusing to take on board new opinions on this thread... I just haven't actually seen any opinion here that's new to me. If someone were to present an alternative way of looking at things, I am as always entirely open to giving that some thought.

...’tempering your thoughts’...?...no, that’s not what I said, understanding differing thought processes because you’ve been in those different thought processes yourself is not ‘tempering’...but you’ve dismissed a thought process as if those thoughts were naive which is very patronising ...and without offering any input of..well, I once thought that but...

... Remy in giving his own valued experience in working in LGBT shelters is indeed offering something new to the topic and another aspect to be welcomed because it also balances and equates with the vulnerability of females/...not dismissing or lessening...the safety and safeguarding of born females and of transgender females (both)..two very vulnerable sections of society that need to be considered in these conversations of safe spaces...(..not TiBB conversations, but those that will make decisions about safeguarding with this...)...


....so far as the U.K. is concerned and something ‘new’ which I added yesterday...(...or at least I hadn’t been aware of it so I posted it..)...Self ID has been rejected by the government and is not something that will be applied in this country...obviously I don’t know with other and all countries and competitive sport will hopefully be something that’s addressed also in the up and coming...

[user104658]

...’tempering your thoughts’...?...no, that’s not what I said, understanding differing thought processes because you’ve been in those different thought processes yourself is not ‘tempering’...but you’ve dismissed a thought process as if those thoughts were naive which is very patronising ...and without offering any input of..well, I once thought that but...

First and foremost Ammi... I know that that's how you would approach things and there's nothing wrong with that approach, but we're very different sorts of people (and that's OK too) so I'm not sure why you're so keen for me to debate in your debating style?

I disagree that saying it's naive to believe that there aren't points of collision between trans rights and women's rights is "patronising" - it is naive, because there clearly are. Again I understand that you think "naive" is a personal insult, but it's just a descriptor. I'm not saying "they are naive people", I'm saying it's a naive opinion... this is somewhat down to semantics and definitions I suppose. Naive can be used as a slur, but it's not a slur inherently.


... Remy in giving his own valued experience in working in LGBT shelters is indeed offering something new to the topic and another aspect to be welcomed because it also balances and equates with the vulnerability of females/...not dismissing or lessening...the safety and safeguarding of born females and of transgender females (both)..two very vulnerable sections of society that need to be considered in these conversations of safe spaces...(..not TiBB conversations, but those that will make decisions about safeguarding with this...)...


I found the posts on the first few pages of the thread to be flippant and dismissive of concerns and that's all I've brought up. Remy has done a decent enough job of speaking for himself so I'm not sure why you're getting so invested on his behalf... or at least, nothing to say about it that doesn't start going against "discuss the topic not the people posting" rules.

....so far as the U.K. is concerned and something ‘new’ which I added yesterday...(...or at least I hadn’t been aware of it so I posted it..)...Self ID has been rejected by the government and is not something that will be applied in this country...obviously I don’t know with other and all countries and competitive sport will hopefully be something that’s addressed also in the up and coming...

I'm aware of the situation in the UK but "this is the way it is right now" obviously doesn't mean an end to the discussion or the debate, or campaigning that might come on either side. I also genuinely don't come from either side; I am fully in support of protections for trans people, and any and all trans rights being freely given up to the point where giving those rights starts to conflict with the rights of others that would need to be changed to accomodate. I don't even throw a brick wall up at that point; I just strongly advocate for that being the point where things need a lot of thought, consideration and thorough examination before going further. It would be great if we could "relax and love it" and no one would be negatively affected but that's simply not the real world.

Anyway, slightly off on a tangent, my only real point here was that the UK's current position could change at any time, or with any change of government, so it's not a case of "so that's that now". People will continue to lobby so the discussion will stay active.

[Ammi]

....there was absolutely no suggestion ‘ so that’s that now’ in terms of any discussion ...Remy had added something new to the topic of his own personal experiences with LGBT/trans abuse victims and I had added that information that I stated, I hadn’t been aware of and want sure whether it was widely known...(...we have been diverted with a pandemic focus...)...so was potentially offering ‘something new’ as well, which you felt would be interesting to do because there hadn’t been anything new...how anyone receives any of those aspects or anything not previously discussed is entirely up to them, it can be held or dismissed or whatever but they were there and offered in good faith...


...anyways, ‘conversations and discussions etc’...are not just about speaking and listening, they’re about many things and one being ‘the right time’ and I don’t feel atm this is going anywhere other than in circles ...so (...for now...)...I’ll just skip right on by the rest of your post/words...and really, enjoy the rest of your Saturday...

[user104658]

Stop pretending that you care about fairness in sports when that is one of the least relevant parts of the conversation. If that was the only problem people had with trans women then there wouldn't be the same transphobia over and over on the forum.

To which you replied
And I couldn't have said it any better than you have. :lovedup::lovedup:

It seems that lately it's always the threads about sexuality and gender that trigger the most heated conversations and obvious ignorance.

Some people really feel fragile and threatened when it comes to how others live their lives. Just move on and accept others for what they are, it really is not hard.:shrug: Nobody is attacking or threatening you, just relax and love it.

The root of disagreement is that, again, I was not mentionning anybody specifically ON THIS GOD DAMN THREAD OR FORUM but it was somehow decided otherwise. How can that be any clearer? God damn it. You just do not accept any of my justification.

I don't accept your justification because it's the internet and, the annoying thing about the internet is, you don't have to "remember what was said" you can just go back and look. It's patently obvious that you were at least initially talking about threads on this forum :shrug:.

If you didn't mean this forum then I'm not sure, given the above, you can really get frustrated at anyone else for the misunderstanding? Be more careful what you wholeheartedly agree with if... you don't? And if you do, don't try to backpedal.

[Ammi]

...that’s really unfair and shabby when Remy went on to explain and expand and clarify...he’s made many very considered posts throughout the thread but this where we’re at so ‘conversations must be had’ isn’t really the place it’s at, it seems....I’m gone.../...just shabby...

[Niamh.]

Maybe it was, I don't know. I'm not in her head. I can't be held accountable for that. I suggest you talk to her about it? I don't know what else to tell you about it :shrug:Well as TS just pointed out you agreed with her post so can you not see why I would think you were talking about (in part atleast) me?

I did also respond to Jessicas post so no need to talk to her

[user104658]

-

[Ammi]

...so patronising and all so conducive of encouraging open conversation/discussion and not shutting down...

[Ammi]

...don’t worry about the edit, TS...really I’m a grown up and I’m sure I’ve had much, much more patronising...

[user104658]

...so patronising and all so conducive of encouraging open conversation/discussion and not shutting down...

I edited it almost as soon as I posted it because it's not part of this thread... I guess the most respectful way to put it, Ammi, is to say that I don't want to argue with you (or anyone) about other people's posts or opinions. This isn't the first time so I'm just not going to do it any more. Let people fight their own corner.

[jet]

Remy :hug: