Brighton and Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust unveiled 'gender inclusive' phrases

[arista]

They are Crazy

Its Breast Milk
not Human Milk


You Woke Freaks


[Hospital tells doctors, nurses and midwives to
say 'birthing parents' and 'human milk'
instead of 'mothers' and 'breastmilk' because
they risk offending transgender people
Brighton and Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust
unveiled 'gender inclusive' phrases
The Trust is the first in the country
to formally implement such a radical overhaul
Document released this week, said staff
should not stop using the word 'woman]


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9241217/Hospital-tells-midwives-use-terms-like-birthing-parents-human-milk.html



Debated on Politics Live BBC2HD

[Niamh.]

Always replacing the word woman, why is that? I've yet to see the word man be replaced by Prostate owner or father being replaced by Sperm giver

[Oliver_W]

Women really are the only group of people who can't stand up for their rights without being called names like "TERF" ... Which is ironic really, as they seem to be losing the right to even be called women!

[Niamh.]

Women really are the only group of people who can't stand up for their rights without being called names like "TERF" ... Which is ironic really, as they seem to be losing the right to even be called women!

Seriously. All this kind of thing is just so regressive to women's rights and trying to get out of those bloody gender role boxes

[bots]

are there any humans other than woman that can produce milk? If not, why the need to reclassify

[Marsh.]

"Brighton and Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust reduce women down to bodily functions" is the correct title.

[Marsh.]

Also, why would "breastmilk" be offensive to a transgender person?

Probably isn't.

[Niamh.]

"Brighton and Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust reduce women down to bodily functions" is the correct title.

Absolutely.

Birthing parents, menstruators, cervix havers ..........so ****ing dehumanising

[armand.kay]

Absolutely.

Birthing parents, menstruators, cervix havers ..........so ****ing dehumanising

Trans men and non binary people can menstruate, have cervix’s and give birth. What exactly is your solution for general terms that they can use to include all these groups?

[Cherie]

Trans men and non binary people can menstruate, have cervix’s and give birth. What exactly is your solution for general terms that they can use to include all these groups?

My question is why would a trans man want to give birth? and wouldn't the hormones they are taking prevent them getting pregnant?

and a non binary person might still have breasts, they would be attached to their body, why would they not want to mention breasts...?

[Oliver_W]

Trans men and non binary people can menstruate, have cervix’s and give birth. What exactly is your solution for general terms that they can use to include all these groups?

Females?

[armand.kay]

My question is why would a trans man want to give birth? and wouldn't the hormones they are taking prevent them getting pregnant?

Well I’m not a trans man so you’d have to ask someone who is, also google has never failed me. All I know is that there is trans men giving birth and that’s enough for me to justify more gender butyrate language in the hospitals. I don’t see the need for knowing exactly why they want a child.

[Niamh.]

Trans men and non binary people can menstruate, have cervix’s and give birth. What exactly is your solution for general terms that they can use to include all these groups?

Why do I need to think of a solution? I'm a woman, I don't like being reduced to my bodily functions, why doesn't that count for anything?

Why is it only women who are being forced to change our language?

[Cherie]

Well I’m not a trans man so you’d have to ask someone who is, also google has never failed me. All I know is that there is trans men giving birth and that’s enough for me to justify more gender butyrate language in the hospitals. I don’t see the need for knowing exactly why they want a child.

sounds a bit cake and eat it to me if I am honest, if you want to be male, and I honestly think if you are taking testosterone that would negate female hormones, but I am not up on science, also I asked you because you seemed so sure I thought you might know?

any comment on the breasts that the non binary person has attached to their body..

[armand.kay]

Why do I need to think of a solution? I'm a woman, I don't like being reduced to my bodily functions, why doesn't that count for anything?

Why is it only women who are being forced to change our language?

You don’t actually need to do anything...

From what I’ve seen it’s not just women I’ve heard things like “people with penises/prostates” used. I’m not going to click on the dailymail article but from arista’s extract it looks like they’re talking specifically about the birthing process and people who are born male don’t do that.

[Oliver_W]

Trans men and non binary people can menstruate, have cervix’s and give birth. What exactly is your solution for general terms that they can use to include all these groups?

Half the population are women, and only a micropercentage of those women identify as men or nonbinary. Why should half the population lose their name for <1% ?

[armand.kay]

sounds a bit cake and eat it to me if I am honest, if you want to be male, and I honestly think if you are taking testosterone that would negate female hormones, but I am not up on science, also I asked you because you seemed so sure I thought you might know?

any comment on the breasts that the non binary person has attached to their body..

In my opinion trans men have as much right as anybody else to have children so I’ve never actually thought to question their motives. Also not everybody who is trans or non binary is gonna be on hormones so it might be that but i’m also no scientist so idk if you can still have children after hormones.

The breast thing has me as confused as everyone else coz I’ve honestly never heard of breasts being offensive. On the same hand I don’t understand how Human milk is anymore dehumanising than breast milk

[Crimson Dynamo]

silly woke pandering nonsense

:facepalm:

[AnnieK]

Every human has breasts....be they male or female so to now have to say chest feeding sounds daft.

I don't mind gender neutral medical terms to be honest, it often is the case that Doctors use medical terms rather than the more colloquial ones non medical people will use.

What will become discriminatory in my view is forcing born women to change the way they speak about their own body to use gender neutral terms. I can't see how that could ever happen but if I were to have another child and want to feed my child using breast milk from my breasts I don't want to have to call it human milk :shrug:

[GoldHeart]

What exactly made them do this??? , why is there an issue with saying female and woman.

Why would trans people be offended :facepalm: , I'm extremely confused and frustrated with this type of silliness . And when someone transitions from male to female surely they wouldn't have a problem with female phrases?? this literally makes no senses :huh:.

[Vicky.]

'Inclusive language' stuff, I tend to not see an issue IF its used..for transmen/non binary people. Like, theres no issue at all for medics ad such to be trained to talk in a different way if treating someone who does not identify as female.

Using it wholesale though, just kind of seems crappy. Its honestly like woman, mother, etc are dirty words. And yes, its never anything to do with men, seemingly. Only ever women. Infact, oddly, I have found those who tend to shout about how the correct term is menstruators or whatever, REALLY do not like you also using terms such as penis people if referring to men. I don't do it often like, I did it a couple of times in a convo about this stuff, and got a lot of abuse for it, apparently, men is fine. So, tell me this is not rampant misogyny really..honestly..

[Tom4784]

An article from the Daily Mail that's full of language and terminology meant to incite gammon about gender? Surely not!?

[arista]

silly woke pandering nonsense

:facepalm:


Yes it is.

[Oliver_W]

Always replacing the word woman, why is that? I've yet to see the word man be replaced by Prostate owner or father being replaced by Sperm giver

And yes, its never anything to do with men, seemingly. Only ever women. Infact, oddly, I have found those who tend to shout about how the correct term is menstruators or whatever, REALLY do not like you also using terms such as penis people if referring to men.

Male entitlement. Women have to sacrifice terms which refer to them to appease male people, who of course don't have to give anything up for those females who identify as men...

[GoldHeart]

'Inclusive language' stuff, I tend to not see an issue IF its used..for transmen/non binary people. Like, theres no issue at all for medics ad such to be trained to talk in a different way if treating someone who does not identify as female.

Using it wholesale though, just kind of seems crappy. Its honestly like woman, mother, etc are dirty words. And yes, its never anything to do with men, seemingly. Only ever women. Infact, oddly, I have found those who tend to shout about how the correct term is menstruators or whatever, REALLY do not like you also using terms such as penis people if referring to men. I don't do it often like, I did it a couple of times in a convo about this stuff, and got a lot of abuse for it, apparently, men is fine. So, tell me this is not rampant misogyny really..honestly..

I just read the article Vicky and it sounds like they're calling father's "birthing parent" & "co parent " instead of man :facepalm: . And yeah it should just be for people who identify that way rather than making it for everyone. But it seems female phrases are being targeted mostly .

I hope this daft trend stays in Brighton, if a woman go into labour they can't expect her to be called just a "person" with "human milk" sounds ridiculous .

[GoldHeart]

An article from the Daily Mail that's full of language and terminology meant to incite gammon about gender? Surely not!?

TRUE fair point

But they can't erase female phrases and the word woman , so i'm hoping this just applies to people who identify that way .

[Vicky.]

sounds a bit cake and eat it to me if I am honest, if you want to be male, and I honestly think if you are taking testosterone that would negate female hormones, but I am not up on science, also I asked you because you seemed so sure I thought you might know?

any comment on the breasts that the non binary person has attached to their body..

Not all transmen are on hormones. Especially given..a lot of transmen these days tend to be very very young. A 16 year old child of a friend of mine came out as trans last year. They are not on hormones or anything, and are now pregnant. From the utterly ridiculous situation of listening to online groups and basically convincing themselves into believing that they are actually male, and they have no pregnancy risk, etc etc, sleeping with a 'non binary person' (who also, cannot get them pregnant, as not a man) and..funnily enough..as can happen when a male and female person shag, ending up pregnant. Like, its like something from some messed up comedy at times. This is part of why I am hugely against the denial of biology really. Seems to be creating some weird alternate reality where people are actually convinced that sex is not a real thing because they want to think that, and end up in situations that are..easily avoidable with some sense applied. Again, that^ seemed a rarity, usually confined to america tbh, but its everywhere now, with so so many young female people saying they are trans/non binary. No issue in itself really, but when they fall for the social media/media bull****? It becomes a bit of an issue. I do not think its 'kind' or 'nice' to be playing to that narrative.

Kids are..easily 'brainwashed'. I dont think the term fits 100%, but you can see where I am coming from. When many many older people tell young impressionable minds that they can identify their way out of biology, you get these kinds of results tbh. Its insanity.

[Vicky.]

I just read the article Vicky and it sounds like they're calling father's "birthing parent" & "co parent " instead of man :facepalm: .

Thats got to be a first..bloody hell. In practise, I really doubt they will though..its been a 'thing' for a while now. Cervical cancer charities totally removing the word woman/female, meanwhile, mens cancers..left alone. I don't WANT mens charities to be targetted mind. But, its always seemed very stark, the lack of 'inclusive language' for male people. And..the reaction of a lot of those who use 'inclusive language' if you do attempt to define male people as scrotum havers or something.

Honestly have not read the actual article as..read this elsewhere so the mails take is not too important to me :laugh:

[Ammi]

...I don’t really have much comment atm because I don’t want to just take a DM article for something like this...I have tried to Google more and the terminology seems to be specific to these hospitals in their new guidance...I mean for staff use, not what would be expected of any terminology used beyond that...it’s a difficult one...for me anyway...because I do feel that trans inclusivity has importance also...


...there is a maternity pay bill being rushed through today, I read...I’m not sure the details but it’s being apparently rushed through because of a minister about to go on maternity leave...I always wonder with this type of story, if it’s there for a diversion, it’ll be interesting as to what the bill is exactly...

[Niamh.]

You don’t actually need to do anything...

From what I’ve seen it’s not just women I’ve heard things like “people with penises/prostates” used. I’m not going to click on the dailymail article but from arista’s extract it looks like they’re talking specifically about the birthing process and people who are born male don’t do that.

I don't want to be referred to that way though, is it not OK for me to say I find it dehumanising?

Where have you seen men being referred to as anything other than men? Is it men's health literature or in hospitals or on mens hygiene products?

[GoldHeart]

Thats got to be a first..bloody hell. In practise, I really doubt they will though..its been a 'thing' for a while now. Cervical cancer charities totally removing the word woman/female, meanwhile, mens cancers..left alone. I don't WANT mens charities to be targetted mind. But, its always seemed very stark, the lack of 'inclusive language' for male people. And..the reaction of a lot of those who use 'inclusive language' if you do attempt to define male people as scrotum havers or something.

Honestly have not read the actual article as..read this elsewhere so the mails take is not too important to me :laugh:

Well according to that article so I guess we just take it with a pinch of salt :rolleyes: .

But "woman" & "female" cannot be erased of the English language and terminology , if they want to have inclusive terms then that's one thing but they shouldn't remove another .

[arista]

...I don’t really have much comment atm because I don’t want to just take a DM article for something like this...I have tried to Google more and the terminology seems to be specific to these hospitals in their new guidance...I mean for staff use, not what would be expected of any terminology used beyond that...it’s a difficult one...for me anyway...because I do feel that trans inclusivity has importance also...


...there is a maternity pay bill being rushed through today, I read...I’m not sure the details but it’s being apparently rushed through because of a minister about to go on maternity leave...I always wonder with this type of story, if it’s there for a diversion, it’ll be interesting as to what the bill is exactly...


Its on Every News Headlines
Forget the DM

[Vicky.]

if they want to have inclusive terms then that's one thing but they shouldn't remove another .

Well thats always been it for me on this topic. I see no issue, at all (and its maybe even preferable tbh) in midwives or whoever using 'inclusive'/nonsexbased terms for those who do not identify with their sex. Make the patient as comfy as possible right? Affects noone else really if for their appointments, they are called chest feeders, or anything like that. And could help the patient, a lot.

However I do NOT find it inclusive at all, to wholesale remove usual language.

Like, even the likes of this ridiculous 'menstruators' thing (possibly the most well known instance of this?). Menstruators, and 'people who menstruate' are bloody awful terms for so so many. I have never, since the start of this, understood why the answer was not...'women, transmen and non binary people'?! Seems the bloody obvious answer? But no. Not acceptable.

[Niamh.]

Well thats always been it for me on this topic. I see no issue, at all (and its maybe even preferable tbh) in midwives or whoever using 'inclusive'/nonsexbased terms for those who do not identify with their sex. Make the patient as comfy as possible right? Affects noone else really if for their appointments, they are called chest feeders, or anything like that. And could help the patient, a lot.

However I do NOT find it inclusive at all, to wholesale remove usual language.

Like, even the likes of this ridiculous 'menstruators' thing (possibly the most well known instance of this?). Menstruators, and 'people who menstruate' are bloody awful terms for so so many. I have never, since the start of this, understood why the answer was not...'women, transmen and non binary people'?! Seems the bloody obvious answer? But no. Not acceptable.

Why isn't acceptable to add rather than remove is the question?

[Vicky.]

Why isn't acceptable to add rather than remove is the question?

Exactly. If people don't wish to be named women, fine. Add them. Do not ****ing remove women. And then, replace women with 'person who bleeds' or other such nonsense. Jesus.

[Oliver_W]

The story has also been covered by the Mirror and Metro, for those who find the Daily Mail too scary :laugh:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/midwives-told-stop-using-terms-23473645
https://metro.co.uk/2021/02/10/brighton-midwives-told-to-say-chestfeeding-to-be-more-inclusive-14055419/

[GoldHeart]

Well thats always been it for me on this topic. I see no issue, at all (and its maybe even preferable tbh) in midwives or whoever using 'inclusive'/nonsexbased terms for those who do not identify with their sex. Make the patient as comfy as possible right? Affects noone else really if for their appointments, they are called chest feeders, or anything like that. And could help the patient, a lot.

However I do NOT find it inclusive at all, to wholesale remove usual language.

Like, even the likes of this ridiculous 'menstruators' thing (possibly the most well known instance of this?). Menstruators, and 'people who menstruate' are bloody awful terms for so so many. I have never, since the start of this, understood why the answer was not...'women, transmen and non binary people'?! Seems the bloody obvious answer? But no. Not acceptable.

That term would be too long to say , why not just say 'women and people'

I heard about the 'menstruator' one, but I didn't think many used that term as people are still openly saying 'woman and period' in the same sentence. The ads on TV still say female and women when talking about periods.

Even ' tenor ladies ' still say women , I just can't imagine them changing that all .

[Oliver_W]

That term would be too long to say , why not just say 'women and people'


Or even better ... Women.

[Livia]

If you're giving birth and/or breastfeeding, you're a woman. That's nature. I don't see why women can't be referred to as women because a handful of women identifying as men, and still having unprotected sex, might be offended.

[Cherie]

Not all transmen are on hormones. Especially given..a lot of transmen these days tend to be very very young. A 16 year old child of a friend of mine came out as trans last year. They are not on hormones or anything, and are now pregnant. From the utterly ridiculous situation of listening to online groups and basically convincing themselves into believing that they are actually male, and they have no pregnancy risk, etc etc, sleeping with a 'non binary person' (who also, cannot get them pregnant, as not a man) and..funnily enough..as can happen when a male and female person shag, ending up pregnant. Like, its like something from some messed up comedy at times. This is part of why I am hugely against the denial of biology really. Seems to be creating some weird alternate reality where people are actually convinced that sex is not a real thing because they want to think that, and end up in situations that are..easily avoidable with some sense applied. Again, that^ seemed a rarity, usually confined to america tbh, but its everywhere now, with so so many young female people saying they are trans/non binary. No issue in itself really, but when they fall for the social media/media bull****? It becomes a bit of an issue. I do not think its 'kind' or 'nice' to be playing to that narrative.

Kids are..easily 'brainwashed'. I dont think the term fits 100%, but you can see where I am coming from. When many many older people tell young impressionable minds that they can identify their way out of biology, you get these kinds of results tbh. Its insanity.


Right got you Vicky, its not something I thought about in terms of very young people so yes of course they wont immediately be on hormones, so that make sense

[GoldHeart]

Or even better ... Women.

Well yeah we say woman and women and they can't and shouldn't try to eliminate that, if I go to a doctor's appointment I don't expect to be called "human person" :rolleyes: .

[Tom4784]

The story has also been covered by the Mirror and Metro, for those who find the Daily Mail too scary :laugh:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/midwives-told-stop-using-terms-23473645
https://metro.co.uk/2021/02/10/brighton-midwives-told-to-say-chestfeeding-to-be-more-inclusive-14055419/

There's absolutely nothing scary about that idiot's lantern of a newspaper. Let's not make out that people who find Daily Mail's continued love of misinformation and spin disgusting somehow fear it, we simply hold journalism to a higher standard and are actually interested in news, not spin meant to rile up the gullible.

[Ammi]

Its on Every News Headlines
Forget the DM

...I know that it’s not just the DM carrying the story, Arista...but it’s still for me not a complete story because we don’t know how the terms are going to be applied, whether it’s on medical/hospital documentation/reports only etc...these are tabloid media, it seems most wise to feel the need for a complete story and context etc...

[Niamh.]

...I know that it’s not just the DM carrying the story, Arista...but it’s still for me not a complete story because we don’t know how the terms are going to be applied, whether it’s on medical/hospital documentation/reports only etc...these are tabloid media, it seems most wise to feel the need for a complete story and context etc...

I don't know about this particular case but in Ireland they had changed the information on the HSE website (our NHS) to people with a cervix and removed the word women completely. Loads of people complained about it (me included) and they've now changed it to "Women and people with a cervix" see below

https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/when-you-should-have-cervical-screening/who-should-have-cervical-screening.html

Funnily enough the Prostate Cancer Screening section was never changed originally and has not been changed to include other people who may have prostates either. I would really like to know why only women are being pressured to be inclusive in their language. See below.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/c/cancer,-prostate/symptoms-of-prostate-cancer.html

So same health service but only one sex is being pressured to change language. Why?

[arista]

The story has also been covered by the Mirror and Metro, for those who find the Daily Mail too scary :laugh:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/midwives-told-stop-using-terms-23473645
https://metro.co.uk/2021/02/10/brighton-midwives-told-to-say-chestfeeding-to-be-more-inclusive-14055419/



Thank you Oliver
for helping Ammi.

[Ammi]

I don't know about this particular case but in Ireland they had changed the information on the HSE website (our NHS) to people with a cervix and removed the word women completely. Loads of people complained about it (me included) and they've now changed it to "Women and people with a cervix" see below

https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/when-you-should-have-cervical-screening/who-should-have-cervical-screening.html

Funnily enough the Prostate Cancer Screening section was never changed originally and has not been changed to include other people who may have prostates either. I would really like to know why only women are being pressured to be inclusive in their language. See below.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/c/cancer,-prostate/symptoms-of-prostate-cancer.html

So same health service but only one sex is being pressured to change language. Why?



...that feels like the obvious solution, to add on, rather than to change...?...I think the intention of exclusivity is good and necessary but these things aren’t always well thought out....and I would hope that they would be taking Ireland’s lead if it’s to apply to the NHS as a whole body...atm, it seems to be this particular hospital and their staff workforce guidance and I’d just like to know a little more in depth, how it’s going to be applied....and I hope these hospitals are also a guide for other hospitals to think how exclusivity can apply without offending or alienating etc....

[Ammi]

Thank you Oliver
for helping Ammi.

...behave yourself, Arista...

[Niamh.]

...that feels like the obvious solution, to add on, rather than to change...?...I think the intention of exclusivity is good and necessary but these things aren’t always well thought out....and I would hope that they would be taking Ireland’s lead if it’s to apply to the NHS as a whole body...atm, it seems to be this particular hospital and their staff workforce guidance and I’d just like to know a little more in depth, how it’s going to be applied....and I hope these hospitals are also a guide for other hospitals to think how exclusivity can apply without offending or alienating etc....

But why only the women's side of things being changed/redefined? This is what I don't get. Who is behind pushing this agenda but only asking for women's products and literature to be altered?

*I'm glad they added women back and don't have an issue with them adding people with a cervix to it btw, I just want to know why it's only us having to make the change, why isn't it important on the other side?

[Smithy]

There isn’t a single person out there that’s campaigned for these changes it’s all a load of trash by the media reporting it to further their anti trans agenda

[Niamh.]

There isn’t a single person out there that’s campaigned for these changes it’s all a load of trash by the media reporting it to further their anti trans agenda

If no one campaigns for it why does it get changed, who prompts that change? And why when prompted to be more inclusive, is it only changing on the women's side?

[Vicky.]

There isn’t a single person out there that’s campaigned for these changes

Thats just..not true. It appears to be 'fringe groups' and such mainly, granted. And oddball loner types bombarding companies to change their terms. However, even the likes of stonewall are pushing for 'gender neutral language' . To say its just anti trans stuff made up by the media or whatever is just..false. The media is actually fairly slow on the uptake with this stuff..not too long back there was a situation in the UK same as niamh described in Ireland, where NHS cervical cancer leaflets and such suddenly removed the words woman and female completely. Its now both (as it should be, women AND those wth a cervix) but the answer was apparently to remove women totally. Media were almost silent at the time, as it was a bit suprising. Again, the lack of changes to prostate cancer pages and such was notable.