Conservative future tax rise : Vote Has Won

[arista]

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[arista]

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Large Observer
Starmer must back this


https://news.sky.com/story/pms-national-insurance-rise-plan-criticised-as-tax-on-young-workers-to-protect-the-homes-of-older-people-12399514

Also,
[The prime minister is expected to
increase national insurance to help fund care reforms
and clear backlogs in the NHS.]

[joeysteele]

Once manifesto pledges start to get broken, then there becomes little point in manifestos.

However, as with the banking financial crisis caused to the government before.
Then with this pandemic to this government.

Events can mean, that you cannot possibly stick to manifesto pledges.

I'm not sure re the triple lock of pensioner additional support being broken.
Although if it's a fact that extra support is needed then make the pension of the right level to accommodate it.

Further, speaking for myself, to raise NI and or some taxation, to help fund social care and the NHS.
Then I am all in favour of that, as long as safeguards are in place to ensure, the extra raised, does only go to the NHS and social care.
Not wasted on unnecessary costly reforms as from 2011 before.

I support the government's efforts to improve social care and anything for the NHS extra is welcomed by me too.

[arista]

Once manifesto pledges start to get broken, then there becomes little point in manifestos.

However, as with the banking financial crisis caused to the government before.
Then with this pandemic to this government.

Events can mean, that you cannot possibly stick to manifesto pledges.

I'm not sure re the triple lock of pensioner additional support being broken.
Although if it's a fact that extra support is needed then make the pension of the right level to accommodate it.

Further, speaking for myself, to raise NI and or some taxation, to help fund social care and the NHS.
Then I am all in favour of that, as long as safeguards are in place to ensure, the extra raised, does only go to the NHS and social care.
Not wasted on unnecessary costly reforms as from 2011 before.

I support the government's efforts to improve social care and anything for the NHS extra is welcomed by me too.


Of Course Joey
But China's Covid-19
changed every nations plans

[joeysteele]

Of Course Joey
But China's Covid-19
changed every nations plans

I actually think I already pointed out that this pandemic had altered things.

Maybe read the whole post before diving in one point.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-grTxTXsAEYXjF?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

I actually think I already pointed out that this pandemic had altered things.

Maybe read the whole post before diving in one point.


Fair Point.

[arista]

1434443583772311561

[joeysteele]

Fair Point.

Thank you.

[Oliver_W]

Feck off with your stupid tax rises and spend the money you're getting more wisely.

It's not the army of penpushers who were the heroes of the pandemic, and no-one would miss them if the fat was trimmed.

[arista]

Feck off with your stupid tax rises and spend the money you're getting more wisely.

It's not the army of penpushers who were the heroes of the pandemic, and no-one would miss them if the fat was trimmed.


Well it's going to be Debated this week
Labour looks like they will agree with a tax rise.


On GBNewsHD now it's the Political Correction Show
John Redwood MP
and LibDem former leader Vince Cable.

Farage has a day off.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-g7KArXEAEd8nV?format=jpg&name=900x900

[michael21]

Farage has a day off.

He had the last 10 years off

[arista]

1434454059004616705

[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

There is now a Rumour the Nat. Ins.
could be a Temporary Rise.


Debate on GMBHD itv.


Labour are now against it,
and many Conservatives
are also against it.

[user104658]

I’d happily pay an extra £20 on NI or Tax if it meant actual improvements would be made. My concern is that the money will be taken but it’ll just be to stop the wheels falling off and nothing will improve.

I’ve started to turn into an old Tory with this foot injury when it comes to healthcare. I love universal healthcare in concept and that we have it, especially when it comes to things like chronic conditions and terminal illness, but it seems that for “basic” things like a complex foot injury it is just not fit for purpose. They have been utterly, utterly useless and 2 months down the line my foot is still ****ed. A month for an x-ray, 6 weeks to get a CT scan, that was 3 weeks ago and I still haven’t had results.

I can’t pretend that it doesn’t make the huge lump of tax and NI in my payslip sting a bit. Again, I wouldn’t begrudge it in the slightest if it felt like it was paying for a functional service.

[Cherie]

I’d happily pay an extra £20 on NI or Tax if it meant actual improvements would be made. My concern is that the money will be taken but it’ll just be to stop the wheels falling off and nothing will improve.

I’ve started to turn into an old Tory with this foot injury when it comes to healthcare. I love universal healthcare in concept and that we have it, especially when it comes to things like chronic conditions and terminal illness, but it seems that for “basic” things like a complex foot injury it is just not fit for purpose. They have been utterly, utterly useless and 2 months down the line my foot is still ****ed. A month for an x-ray, 6 weeks to get a CT scan, that was 3 weeks ago and I still haven’t had results.

I can’t pretend that it doesn’t make the huge lump of tax and NI in my payslip sting a bit. Again, I wouldn’t begrudge it in the slightest if it felt like it was paying for a functional service.

Yep same, they need to create a tax that is purely put in a social care pot so that spending can be transparent

[Livia]

Tax the rich properly then you won't have to squeeze the poor.

[Alf]

I’d happily pay an extra £20 on NI or Tax if it meant actual improvements would be made. My concern is that the money will be taken but it’ll just be to stop the wheels falling off and nothing will improve.

I’ve started to turn into an old Tory with this foot injury when it comes to healthcare. I love universal healthcare in concept and that we have it, especially when it comes to things like chronic conditions and terminal illness, but it seems that for “basic” things like a complex foot injury it is just not fit for purpose. They have been utterly, utterly useless and 2 months down the line my foot is still ****ed. A month for an x-ray, 6 weeks to get a CT scan, that was 3 weeks ago and I still haven’t had results.

I can’t pretend that it doesn’t make the huge lump of tax and NI in my payslip sting a bit. Again, I wouldn’t begrudge it in the slightest if it felt like it was paying for a functional service.Your extra £20 will come in handy for an MPs elevenses, a large brandy and a Cuban cigar.

[smudgie]

Maybe if it was a tax that everyone paid it would go down better than just NI payers having to foot the bill.:shrug:
I am all for it.
The triple lock on pensions needs sorting as well. An over 8% pay rise down to covid is over the top.

[Cherie]

Yep same, they need to create a tax that is purely put in a social care pot so that spending can be transparent

Tax the rich properly then you won't have to squeeze the poor.

Combine these two and we got ourselves a policy :smug:

[Livia]

Combine these two and we got ourselves a policy :smug:

What a team....

[Oliver_W]

I’d happily pay an extra £20 on NI or Tax if it meant actual improvements would be made. My concern is that the money will be taken but it’ll just be to stop the wheels falling off and nothing will improve.


Yup, any extra money will just fall into the black hole like the rest of it. The government stealing more money isn't the answer, but spending it properly is.

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[Alf]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/1799F/production/_120417669_star0709.pngThe Star, stole that joke from Only fools and Horses

[bots]

i don't have an issue with the NHS getting more cash, if it's used wisely and not squandered on admin and waste as it usually is

[arista]

i don't have an issue with the NHS getting more cash, if it's used wisely and not squandered on admin and waste as it usually is


Yes some poles has said just that.

[user104658]

i don't have an issue with the NHS getting more cash, if it's used wisely and not squandered on admin and waste as it usually is

Part of the problem though is that huge issues are down to understaffing, and they currently simply can't train them fast enough. The lower bands (1 - 4) are less of an issue as they don't have registration requirements, but nurses/doctors/other health professionals at Band 5+ have some major staffing problems... and thanks to good old Brexit we can't attract as many professionals from abroad as we used to. EU staff for actual practical reasons (it's just not as simple or easy as it once was so it isn't an attractive prospect) and staff from elsewhere because, to be blunt, the certain members of the public have been emboldened in being increasingly hostile towards "staff with funny accents". It's a nationalistic xenophobia rather than "simple" racism too; these people tend to have no problem with a black nurse from Manchester or an Asian nurse with a London accent... it's purely down to them being "not from here".

tl;dr All of the money in the world isn't going to fix the staffing problem any time soon. Even if they funnel it all into making salaries more attractive and shovel some of it at Universities to increase training places... you're still talking realistically 5 - 10 years before you actually have increased numbers of fully trained staff in place.

We scared away half the workforce. We had large numbers of EU nurses. They understandably went home.

The problems facing health & social care are multi-layered, and the idea that "if we throw more money, that'll fix it!" is extremely Tory thinking isn't it. More funding will always HELP, of course, but the issues run deeper than underfunding.

[Livia]

i don't have an issue with the NHS getting more cash, if it's used wisely and not squandered on admin and waste as it usually is

For instance... £70k + for a diversity and inclusion manager. I don't know another organisation more diverse or more inclusive.

[joeysteele]

Part of the problem though is that huge issues are down to understaffing, and they currently simply can't train them fast enough. The lower bands (1 - 4) are less of an issue as they don't have registration requirements, but nurses/doctors/other health professionals at Band 5+ have some major staffing problems... and thanks to good old Brexit we can't attract as many professionals from abroad as we used to. EU staff for actual practical reasons (it's just not as simple or easy as it once was so it isn't an attractive prospect) and staff from elsewhere because, to be blunt, the certain members of the public have been emboldened in being increasingly hostile towards "staff with funny accents". It's a nationalistic xenophobia rather than "simple" racism too; these people tend to have no problem with a black nurse from Manchester or an Asian nurse with a London accent... it's purely down to them being "not from here".

tl;dr All of the money in the world isn't going to fix the staffing problem any time soon. Even if they funnel it all into making salaries more attractive and shovel some of it at Universities to increase training places... you're still talking realistically 5 - 10 years before you actually have increased numbers of fully trained staff in place.

We scared away half the workforce. We had large numbers of EU nurses. They understandably went home.

The problems facing health & social care are multi-layered, and the idea that "if we throw more money, that'll fix it!" is extremely Tory thinking isn't it. More funding will always HELP, of course, but the issues run deeper than underfunding.

Really strong post there TS.

I hope social care however doesn't remain another political football.

The effort should be that whatever is put in place is the result of full involved consultation and agreement with other Parties and all relevant care organisations too.

Where there would be universal agreement on a policy by all with just the intention of supporting it once implemented and not keep reforming as with the wider NHS.

That's not going to be the case as he's off to do it his way or no way it seems.

Any increases of tax and NI, for this purpose, it has to be made transparent, that all the funding is for the NHS and social care practical purposes, not on just office matters.

However as TS points out, recruitment is the big issue which will mean now with this particular government's more solid anti EU stance,even now we're out.
That yes, 5 to 10 years down the line, even with the increases of tax and/or NI, little can likely change before that significantly.

I've no problem with him breaking an election manifesto pledge to really do something as to social care and the NHS.
However, any cosmetic ONLY policy will soon be seen through and even with increased revenue, more concerning issues could arise.

As TS stated, part of the bigger problem is understaffing, across the NHS and in the wider care sector too.
That needs a really good, solid and strong policy to even begin to start to address.

Which is why this should be an ALL party policy, not just from the government in office at present, possibly only causing more issues and setting up further future problems.

[arista]

Live in Parliament
12:30PM
Johnson tell us all, his new plan.

But will he get enough votes?

[The Slim Reaper]

Didn't we do brexit so we could spend £350m/wk on the NHS?

[arista]

This is said to be an Increase on Income Tax


The Money is needed because of China's Covid-19
burning up our money tree.

[arista]

The Vote on this Nat.Ins. Tax
increase is to be Tomorrow
Wednesday PM


Ref:SkyNewsHD

[arista]

Johnson's Cabinet has agreed this new TAX
early today.

[Smithy]

Didn't we do brexit so we could spend £350m/wk on the NHS?

That’s what I was told too :conf:

[arista]

That’s what I was told too :conf:


This is Beyond that


China's Covid-19
has wrecked the UK and World.
It was not expected.

[The Slim Reaper]

This is Beyond that


China's Covid-19
has wrecked the UK and World.
It was not expected.

Covid is irrelevant to the payments we were supposedly making to the EU that we are no longer making. That money should still be there.

[arista]

Covid is irrelevant to the payments we were supposedly making to the EU that we are no longer making. That money should still be there.



No you are Wrong
it has caused the NHS to have a massive backlog.


China's Covid-19 has cost this nation Billions.
Fact.

[The Slim Reaper]

No you are Wrong
it has caused the NHS to have a massive backlog.


China's Covid-19 has cost this nation Billions.
Fact.

It's not a fact, Arista, and stop pretending you don't know any better. We were told that the EU was costing us £350m/wk, so lets spend it on the nhs instead. We are no longer spending that £350m/wk, so where is the money?If we have a massive backlog, then that money is needed now more than ever, and they shouldn't be balancing the books by taking more money from the poor and older people.

[arista]

The Prime Minister Is Live



LBC
SkyNewsHD
BBCnewsHD
BBC2HD
Radio 5

[arista]

It's not a fact, Arista, and stop pretending you don't know any better. We were told that the EU was costing us £350m/wk, so lets spend it on the nhs instead. We are no longer spending that £350m/wk, so where is the money?If we have a massive backlog, then that money is needed now more than ever, and they shouldn't be balancing the books by taking more money from the poor and older people.


Yes some time ago

Covid & Social Care
are the issue right now






NHS backlog caused by Covid

[arista]

National Insurance Increase of 1.25
confirmed

[arista]

National Insurance Increase of 1.25
confirmed

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/07/07/article-9964819-47595479-617_964x543.jpg

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/07/12/47602805-9964819-image-a-38_1631012748506.jpg

9:30AM agreed

[arista]

Labours Keir Starmer
is now talking.

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/07/01/47542069-9963713-The_PM_s_plans_will_place_a_cap_on_the_amount_peop le_have_to_pay-a-16_1630972943691.jpg

All change soon, granny

[The Slim Reaper]

What happens when the cost of care goes beyond £80k?

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/07/12/article-9965651-47604679-930_964x543.jpg

[joeysteele]

Does Johnson really believe that by mumbling and bumbling coupled with talking rapidly, will just go over the heads of those listening.
So he doesn't get any real challenge to anything he's saying.

Although on this issue, I do believe Starmer was ill prepared today too.

This is quite worrying that the government, in order to bring social care to the forefront now,(my suspicious mind thinking to move the narrative from Afghanistan), that they may be using social care for that purpose.

[arista]

"I do believe Starmer was ill prepared today too"



Yes he was stuck
Johnson PM admits he has to break his promise.

[The Slim Reaper]

They found £37 billion to give to serco for test and trace, More billions for their PPE mates contracts, but now we need to start killing people all over again. It's not even a right v left issue, it's decency v cruelty.

[The Slim Reaper]

£200b on unnecessary nukes.

Boris still getting his £200m yacht.

[arista]

Perv Matt Hancock was speaking
Loads laughing at him


Live

[user104658]

The 1.25% rise - is that an extra 1.25% of gross income, or an extra 1.25% of current NI payments? Because let's say your current gross salary is £4000/month... your current monthly NI is (approx) £400/month, so if it's the former that's going to be an extra £50 a month on your NI, but if it's the latter it's going to be an extra £5.

I have to assume it's the former?

[The Slim Reaper]

The 1.25% rise - is that an extra 1.25% of gross income, or an extra 1.25% of current NI payments? Because let's say your current gross salary is £4000/month... your current monthly NI is (approx) £400/month, so if it's the former that's going to be an extra £50 a month on your NI, but if it's the latter it's going to be an extra £5.

I have to assume it's the former?

Pretty helpful thread from a former tax lawyer

1435210609080078338

[bots]

The 1.25% rise - is that an extra 1.25% of gross income, or an extra 1.25% of current NI payments? Because let's say your current gross salary is £4000/month... your current monthly NI is (approx) £400/month, so if it's the former that's going to be an extra £50 a month on your NI, but if it's the latter it's going to be an extra £5.

I have to assume it's the former?

if you look at arista's headline above is £500 per year on 50k salary

[user104658]

Pretty helpful thread from a former tax lawyer

1435210609080078338

Hmm, so definitely 1.25% on gross income then, although I find the claim of it affecting people on 10k/year a little overblown, though technically accurate, because of how NI scales at very low income you're talking about 50p/month, peaking as a percentage of income around £50k. So yeah the bulk of this tax burden is going to fall on middle incomes... a Tory tale as old as time.

Again I don't think it's a huge amount to pay IF it was genuinely going to create a world-class health and social care system AND it was hand-in-hand with ringfenced taxation of the ultra-wealthy (and damned online retail) but realistically, the taxes are going to go up and nothing is going to improve at all. We all know it.

[arista]

The Vote is tomorrow
so far, most of the Labour Party are against this.

[michael21]

The Vote is tomorrow
so far, most of the Labour Party are against this.

But the vote is not public

How long you been watching mp some time there changes there mind last minute

Yes Green man you need to pay more more you get what you voted for

[arista]

Some sad SNP have called this a Poll Tax.


Of Course Scotland, is getting extra Money sent to them.

[Oliver_W]

For instance... £70k + for a diversity and inclusion manager. I don't know another organisation more diverse or more inclusive.

Yup. A ridiculous amount to piss away on a pointless job.

There's no reason to assume extra money going to the NHS won't be wasted on dumb desk jobs, rather than things that matter.

Robbing people's income won't win any votes, and I wonder if such a horrible move would have been done closer to the next election. I hope people don't have such short memories.

[user104658]

Robbing people's income won't win any votes, and I wonder if such a horrible move would have been done closer to the next election. I hope people don't have such short memories.

It's an interesting one because it's actually one of the only things people do have a longer memory for - because they see that tax breakdown on their payslip every month.

[Oliver_W]

It's an interesting one because it's actually one of the only things people do have a longer memory for - because they see that tax breakdown on their payslip every month.

True! One might say there's still a few years for people to "get used to" their money being cut, so let's hope people remember why it's there...

The pathetically small pay rise for the NHS workers will probably be eaten up by this tax hike too...

[arista]

Around 4PM Live
9 Downing Street Media room

With Press Questions in that room.


Johnson PM with Health Sec & Chancellor

[arista]

Live Now



Has not mentioned
the Vote that has to pass tomorrow?

[arista]

Rishi Sunak

Now Talking

[arista]

Now the Health Secretary is speaking

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/07/15/47604973-9965651-image-a-70_1631024925110.jpg

[arista]

Press Questions:

BBC Laura
starts with "Trusting The PM"

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/07/16/47614751-9965651-image-a-78_1631029742676.jpg


[First up it's Laura Kuenssberg from the BBC.
She asks what is fair about taxing poorer people
while wealthy pensioners' homes and assets are protected.

Boris Johnson says on fairness: "We're protecting everybody's
assets up to £100,000.
People up and down the country whatever
their assets will find they get help."]


https://news.sky.com/story/covid-news-live-vaccines-minister-nadhim-zahawi-to-be-questioned-on-social-care-and-booster-jabs-12401016

[bots]

i think everyone has had a wake up call on how important the nhs is, so if there was ever going to be an increase, now is the time to do it. It's easy to justify come election time

[arista]

Johnson PM tells the ITV1HDnews Lady (works on the Peston Show)

"Covid was not in the Manifesto"

[arista]

i think everyone has had a wake up call on how important the nhs is, so if there was ever going to be an increase, now is the time to do it. It's easy to justify come election time


Yes but tomorrow in Parliament
can they win the Vote?

[Oliver_W]

i think everyone has had a wake up call on how important the nhs is, so if there was ever going to be an increase, now is the time to do it. It's easy to justify come election time

No-one's disputing that the NHS deserves more money. But it's hard to trust that the money will actually go to the right places.

[arista]

SkyNews Beth
keeps asking Dumb Question

Saying he must rule out other Tax rises.

[bots]

Yes but tomorrow in Parliament
can they win the Vote?

well if they don't win, they can say they tried ... which is more important than the result

[arista]

Reporter Pippa
Pippa Crear of the Daily Mirror

Stopped the PM ending it.

He will now take 4 more questions

[arista]

50mins in 9 Downing St.

With some Press having to demand to ask Questions.

[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

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[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/08/00/47629699-0-image-m-1_1631056124133.jpg

[arista]

[The next United Kingdom general election
is Officially scheduled to be held on Thursday 2 May 2024]

"Ministers have vowed that billions in extra NHS funding
would clear the Covid backlog by 2025"


Once again
going over the General Election date is wrong

[Withano]

People voted Tories what did they expect lol

[arista]

People voted Tories what did they expect lol


Yes that's due to Jeremy Corbyn
though

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/07/15/47607789-9965651-Matt_Hancock_speaks_in_the_House_of_Commons_in_Lon don_today_for_-a-53_1631023887824.jpg

Yesterday,
Randy Matt Hancock
got jeers and loads of Laughs


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/09/08/00/47497367-9967481-Mr_Hancock_resigned_after_he_was_shown_in_CCTV_foo tage_kissing_h-a-19_1631055654639.jpg

[arista]

1435501007107203075

[joeysteele]

Sajid Javid was making hard work of selling this policy this morning.

It doesn't appear that much will alter in the next 3 years as to social care.
Then he cannot even give an idea of the distribution of the extra funding from tax rises, to then be given to social care.

According to the NHS it may take, depending even further on issues around covid, it may take at least 5 years to get on top of the backlog of delayed and other arising conditions.
It could even need up to 10 years.

So just when will the real changes to social care be also even starting to happen.
As it seems only a small proportion of the raised tax funding, will be initially put into social care.

Javid was in fact rather hopeless and didn't seem to have a clue himself.
So is there a real urgent plan actually ready on social care, or is this a more cosmetic exercise ONLY.

[arista]

"Sajid Javid was making hard work of selling this policy this morning."


Yes Health Secretary
and he was the money man.

[arista]

BBCnewsHD is Stuck on Live Parliament for some time now
Long Debate before the Vote


SkyNewsHD interviewing the Manchester Mayor

GBnewsHD Scotland Covid Brief.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-tJ1r8WYAAsqXO?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

They are voting now

[joeysteele]

They are voting now

It will pass.
The backbenchers unhappy say much before the debates..
Then just clam up and support the bills once the crunch comes.

[Beso]

The vote is late

[Beso]

Too many labour mps have wanted this in the past for it not to pass.

[arista]

Ayes :319

No: 248

They have Won.


https://news.sky.com/story/mps-back-national-insurance-hike-to-tackle-nhs-backlog-and-fund-pms-care-changes-but-labour-oppose-tax-on-jobs-12402365

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/8808/production/_120442843_guardian0909.png

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/12D8/production/_120442840_ft0909.png

[arista]

1435872512693440512

[joeysteele]

No surprise at all.
However I'm pleased Labour in the end voted against it.
Because quite frankly this isn't going to help the crisis of social care, for likely many years in the future not just the next 3.

Yes, more funds are needed, so are the staff needed too.
We are years off getting any staffing needed.

This is necessary to be looked at.
Andy Burnham when Health secretary was working with the Lib Dems in 2009/10.
On an agreed and better plan for social care.
He also wanted the Conservative party in those talks for agreement but they walked away.

I was stunned in Coalition, the Lib Dems didn't push hard to get those social care plans started again and done then.

Nothing has been done for the last 11 years since the Coalition came to power.

I would support the really dealing with the care sector crisis.
However as this has unravelled more.
This plan for the foreseeable future does nothing really effective as to social care.

It raises money which will help the NHS a fair bit.
While not eradicating even the problems there still.

Health and care are 2 vital parts of living.
It has to be paid for and by all means possible.
I don't mind paying more in this policy.

However it's not enough, plus there seems a lot short on detail.
Hence a quick announcement in parliament, then a snap vote the day after.

Thereby erasing any properly based chance of scrutiny.
The trademark of this particular PM sadly.

However let's see what and IF anything really changes.
Because I don't think this policy goes far enough or will do enough at all.
Very sadly for those needing help right now desperately as to social care needs.

[bots]

to me it shows labour hypocrisy at its fullest. Complain that the tories arent spending enough on health and then vote against a tax rise for that very purpose. They only look foolish and it will come back to haunt them

[joeysteele]

to me it shows labour hypocrisy at its fullest. Complain that the tories arent spending enough on health and then vote against a tax rise for that very purpose. They only look foolish and it will come back to haunt them

In opposition you have to look at all aspects of a policy.
Sadly in my view, Labour MPs are getting REALLY strong feelings and anger from their constituents at the rise of NI.

I wonder did you condemn the Cons when Labour were in government, when the Cons didn't support near anything Labour did.

The clue is in the title the opposition.

Labour would have raised the funds differently, they wouldn't have included NI.
Now you may scoff at that position.

However unless you wholly support a whole listing of a policy you cannot support it.
Nor shouldn't.

Labour would not want to stop more funding for the health service.
So it's not hypocrisy at all.

I liked this plan when it was announced however there's a growing discontent now at how the plan of raised taxing is to be implemented.
As it unfurls too, it really seems unlikely to make a major difference or only to do so in around 10 years or more time.

Labour had to once the government put the health and social care policy tied in with at the same time for the same vote, with the ways of increasing taxation.

Were the Con MPs who voted against this or abstained hypocrites too.

No, they were not.

What was needed here, was an agreed policy and the fairest and proportionate way to raise the funding too.
Agreed in consultation with the necessary care organisations and other political Parties too.
To stop this being a political.foirball still.

It's this PM and your government who have created this, it now seems, mish mash of a policy.
Calling it massive change to social care, where in fact only a small part of extra funding goes direct to social care anyhow.

It's not at all hypocritical for near all the other Parties, not just Labour to not approve of that, or to vote against the policy and the financial raising elements being combined together for the vote.

He's got over 360 MPs.
This only got 319 votes
Seems on your charge, he has a lot of hypocrites on his own side then too.
Labour only has around 200 MPs.
There were 248 votes against this.
So it seems not only Labour should be charged by Cons of being hypocrites.

[user104658]

It hits us for a not-insignificant amount which grates a bit. Again it honestly wouldn't and I'd even pay more if I thought for a second it was actually going to go towards world-class health and social care but ... I will be legitimately shocked if anything actually improves at all.

[joeysteele]

It hits us for a not-insignificant amount which grates a bit. Again it honestly wouldn't and I'd even pay more if I thought for a second it was actually going to go towards world-class health and social care but ... I will be legitimately shocked if anything actually improves at all.

Me too as to your last line TS.

I hope things will improve however the state all is in right now it's massive improvement needed.

I'll happily myself pay more but I am aware for many other people the increase in NI will hit.
Inflation, rising energy costs now an increase in NI too will leave many even worse off.

However he has the green light to raise the extra funding this way.

You yourself, however raised last week, the need of far more staffing levels.
That's not going to happen overnight, not likely to be enough.

It's stated only 15% of the raised levy will go direct to the social care sector.
Which really is a drop in the ocean as to the social care sector needs.

This policy of what detail we know of it.
Doesn't seem like it will overall change much for the better.
So like yourself, I'll be surprised if much improves at all.

[The Slim Reaper]

to me it shows labour hypocrisy at its fullest. Complain that the tories arent spending enough on health and then vote against a tax rise for that very purpose. They only look foolish and it will come back to haunt them

A decade of austerity, followed by a costly brexit, followed by covid. Don't you think the uber-wealthy, who've made an absolute killing during the last couple of years, should be paying for it, instead of putting more on the backs of working people?

Tories levying more tax on the working poor, the working class, and middle classes is not a problem in your mind, but rejecting this proposal will come back to haunt labour for not falling into step with the tories?

Not saying you're wrong, I just don't get why anyone would want to live in a world where it was true.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-vzykyWYAYRtad?format=jpg&name=small


From yesterday

[arista]

and Today

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-1vFKRXsAED1XX?format=jpg&name=small

[Mystic Mock]

Why doesn't Boris tax his own wages (plus his party) if he cares about the NHS?

I wonder what the money is really for?:think:

[arista]

Why doesn't Boris tax his own wages (plus his party) if he cares about the NHS?

I wonder what the money is really for?:think:


To Clear the NHS backlog
caused by China's Covid-19


Labour had a plan like this in 2017

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[Oliver_W]

I'm sure the Tory donors will be happy with the millions in fake contracts coming their way. **** anyone old or infirm though, I suppose.

Yup. There's absolutely no point in "giving" the NHS "more money" until we know that it won't be wasted on a)pointless desk jobs and b)inflated contracts to unqualified people.

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-2_yLnXIAArdJZ?format=jpg&name=small

[arista]

From Sept the 5th

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-grTxTXsAEYXjF?format=jpg&name=small

[Oliver_W]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-2_yLnXIAArdJZ?format=jpg&name=small

The only thing Boris and Biden have "built back better" is the Taliban.

[Cherie]

The only thing Boris and Biden have "built back better" is the Taliban.

:laugh: So true

[Tom4784]

Deleted Post

[user104658]

The interesting thing is that UK Conservatives and US Republicans are often placed in the same "political bracket", but the hard Rebublicans would **** hot bricks before they'd accept a tax hike. And (supposedly) for social healthcare of all things.

[Oliver_W]

It'll just disappear into the air like that supposed 'extra £350million' for the NHS if we left the EU.

Tories only care about backing their backers' interests.
Exactly. Unless they announce a plan as to where the extra money will go, Imma assume it's just going to waste.

The interesting thing is that UK Conservatives and US Republicans are often placed in the same "political bracket", but the hard Rebublicans would **** hot bricks before they'd accept a tax hike. And (supposedly) for social healthcare of all things.
Tbh the American Dems are more like our Tories. The Republicans are ...Tory Plus?

[Withano]

Yes that's due to Jeremy Corbyn
though

Hahaha. You sound like a Daily Mail reader. Good one.

[Withano]

I’d like to think the right wing people will start to listen to the left wing people when they tell them tories will literally rob them.

But here we are again.

[arista]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/FB2E/production/_120520346_telegraph2-nc.png