Jeremy Corbyn will Never Stand for Labour again, says Starmer

[arista]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/14/jeremy-corbyn-will-never-stand-for-labour-again-say-senior-figures


They have Padlocked him out, Slim


[Jeremy Corbyn will never be permitted
to stand as a Labour MP at an election again,
senior Labour figures have said.
The former Labour leader was told
last year he had to apologise for
his claims that the extent of antisemitism
in the party had been “dramatically overstated”.

Keir Starmer has refused to restore
the whip to his predecessor,
effectively suspending him from
the parliamentary party, unless he does so.

However, the Guardian understands
that even if Corbyn does apologise
“unequivocally, unambiguously and
without reservation” the leadership
would be reluctant to let him return.]

[bots]

it's been too long now, if you are going to apologise it has to be in a timely manner, not when you are about to lose your place on the gravy train

[Oliver_W]

Maybe he could start his own party, the British Workers Party? I'm sure he turn it into a national, socialist party.

:hehe:

[Oliver_W]

But really ... does it matter? If his views are really so much at odds with what the Labour party is now, why would he want to be part of it? He's not going to change it, won't be its leader again ... why not go it alone, and stand for whatever he wants outside of the party?

[Crimson Dynamo]

He wont mind as he is ripping it up on Tiktok

https://i.gifer.com/origin/ec/ec89bdd0b41ec3a4e5e1f796242cc546_w200.gif

[The Slim Reaper]

it's been too long now, if you are going to apologise it has to be in a timely manner, not when you are about to lose your place on the gravy train

He doesn't need to apologise. The true statement he made that he had the whip removed for, was a statement he pre-agreed with Starmer.

Personally, I don't really see this as an issue, as the labour party has been kicking out the left since Starmer started to go back on his pledges to attract tory Mp's and voters.

The new chief whip in labour was a tory MP not too long ago, famous for calling the whole labour party a bunch of C's.

Labour will win the next election, because the tories have collapsed in on themselves, but labour relying on the right for votes won't work out well for the party beyond the next GE.

[The Slim Reaper]

But really ... does it matter? If his views are really so much at odds with what the Labour party is now, why would he want to be part of it? He's not going to change it, won't be its leader again ... why not go it alone, and stand for whatever he wants outside of the party?

I agree, he should start his own party. We should have more parties offering different choices, so the voters get to hear all perspectives, even if they disagree with them.


Labour members voted for a platform of PR for the upcoming election, but Starmer won't allow that to stand. All I know is that 50-60 years of thatcherism isn't working, and 2 main parties promising more of the same, just means that the crumbling country and it's societal and landscape infrastructures will also remain the same.

[Zizu]

I agree, he should start his own party. We should have more parties offering different choices, so the voters get to hear all perspectives, even if they disagree with them.


Labour members voted for a platform of PR for the upcoming election, but Starmer won't allow that to stand. All I know is that 50-60 years of thatcherism isn't working, and 2 main parties promising more of the same, just means that the crumbling country and it's societal and landscape infrastructures will also remain the same.


The only party I would vote for would have no politicians in it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The Slim Reaper]

The only party I would vote for would have no politicians in it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

You're a tory, aren't you?

[Zizu]

You're a tory, aren't you?


I have zero affiliations … I just have a soft spot for Boris .. along with millions of others


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The Slim Reaper]

I have zero affiliations … I just have a soft spot for Boris .. along with millions of others


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Did you vote for him?

[Alf]

If he'd have sided with Trump he'd have won.

Although not a particularly big fan of Trump, Corbyn's associate, George Galloway often sides with Trump. So I presume Corbyn does really, but he thought it would be a hinderence to him, he was wrong.

[The Slim Reaper]

If he'd have sided with Trump he'd have won.

Although not a particularly big fan of Trump, Corbyn's associate, George Galloway often sides with Trump. So I presume Corbyn does really, but he thought it would be a hinderence to him, he was wrong.

Galloway and Corbyn aren't allies, and losing with principles is perfectly fine. British people had their say and they wanted more isolation, austerity, and fewer rights, so that's democracy.

A democratic socialist has nothing in common to link him to a far right Trump, so why would he support him?

[Zizu]

Did you vote for him?


Certainly not


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[The Slim Reaper]

Certainly not


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

My mistake then. Apologies.

[Alf]

Galloway and Corbyn aren't allies, and losing with principles is perfectly fine. British people had their say and they wanted more isolation, austerity, and fewer rights, so that's democracy.

A democratic socialist has nothing in common to link him to a far right Trump, so why would he support him?Far-right is a funny description. You're making yourself look dumb.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The British public took one look at him cosying up with terrorist after terrorist

And said er no thanks

[The Slim Reaper]

Far-right is a funny description. You're making yourself look dumb.

How so?

[Alf]

How so?He's not far-right is he?

What's far-right about him?

[jet]

The British public took one look at him cosying up with terrorist after terrorist

And said er no thanks

Got it in one LT :clap1:

[The Slim Reaper]

He's not far-right is he?

What's far-right about him?

Corporate protectionism, anti-immigrant, christian nationalism, are all pretty good indicators of a far right authoritarian. That's quick, without giving any real thought about some of the many scandals and law breaking that follow him around.

[The Slim Reaper]

Got it in one LT :clap1:

Don't forget the wreath incident.

[Alf]

Corporate protectionism, anti-immigrant, christian nationalism, are all pretty good indicators of a far right authoritarian. That's quick, without giving any real thought about some of the many scandals and law breaking that follow him around.He puts money in the people's pockets. He's a Christian but he isn't forcing it on anyone. His mother was an immigrant, he never stopped immigrants from entering, he just wants it done through a legal process, same as Australia do.

[arista]

Starmer has stated
he will Replace Corbyn with a new Labour MP
at the next Election.

[Oliver_W]

Starmer has stated
he will Replace Corbyn with a new Labour MP
at the next Election.

Candidate, rather than MP. Corbyn might be voted in as an Independent. Depends if the people in his seat vote party or person.

[arista]

Tomorrow 28/3/23
Starmer will meet with his NEC
to ban Corbyn from being Labour in the
next general election.

He will have to stand as an Independent MP
and then Win his seat.

1640285343701245953

[Liam-]

He’ll win the seat as an independent

[jet]

Tomorrow 28/3/23
Starmer will meet with his NEC
to ban Corbyn from being Labour in the
next general election.

He will have to stand as an Independent MP
and then Win his seat.

1640285343701245953

Good news. :dance:

[MTVN]

Isn't it about time he thought about retiring anyway, he'll be mid 70s by the next election

[arista]

He’ll win the seat as an independent


Yes, they say a easy win for Corbyn
as he helps all the locals

[arista]

Isn't it about time he thought about retiring anyway, he'll be mid 70s by the next election


No, there are older ones than him

[arista]

1640452397066514435

[arista]

Corbyn may try to ignore this
but the NEC has banned him from the Next Election.
He can take them to court.

To be a Independent MP
he has to leave his Labour Party.

[Livia]

He could stand anywhere.... He would never get in again.

[joeysteele]

It is sad.

It was possibly unfortunate that he got elected as Labour leader and was a massive shock to me.
He wasn't and would have never have been my choice.
However, I loved most of his policies and still do.

In 2017 he came close to being PM.
Around 20 seats more and Mrs May would not only have lost her overall majority she'd have been left as the pariah Party particularly on the EU.
The DUP then unable to keep her in power.
With under 300 seats.

Perhaps had he quit after that election things could have been different now.

He will wrongly be tainted by the anti Semitic issue.
I don't believe he's antisemetic, what he is, is wholly supportive of the Palestinians.
That's not being antisemetic.

However, HE as the then leader of the time with Labour looked into by a full Equalities commission investigation.
He should have to, and would HAVE to, accept in full the findings and conclusions and directions from that commission .

This he has not done.
His really strongest supporters would say he's said sorry.
Sorry without action is NOT being sorry.
He has NEVER said he accepts the full result of the Equalities commission investigation.

So this action as to him now sadly has to be more right then wrong.

He's often been a difficult and critical Labour MP of Labour.
Nothing wrong in that.
Parties need more like that.

Perhaps however he does now need to think about just moving on to pastures new.
He would however I think more than likely win the constituency as an Independent.
He's been there coming on 40 years now.
He is widely believed to be a good constituency MP.

He cannot though be accepted by Labour now.
All he had to say was to thank the Commission for their investigation.
Apologise for any failings of his at the time and accept in FULL all the Equalities commission's conclusions and directives.
He hasn't and will not so that's why he's in this situation today.
That then is his choice.
People, foes and friends alike must make what they will of him as to that.

Starmer and the NEC however have acted correctly today in my view.

[thesheriff443]

1640452397066514435

Nasty old bastard

[The Slim Reaper]

Huge sign of weakness from Starmer. The only man in politics offering any other kind of solution than a tory one, has been killed by the establishment. Completely undemocratic, and flies in the face of yet another election promise that starmer has reneged on.

No person confident in their arguments or opinions has to do this, and just like we see on here when members have to tell or beg others to leave, it's always because of their own weakness.

Regardless of what you think about Corbyn, anyone interested in the democratic processes of the labour party should not support this.

[Oliver_W]

Is it coming from Starmer himself, or the NEC?

[arista]

Is it coming from Starmer himself, or the NEC?


BOTH

[The Slim Reaper]

It is sad.

It was possibly unfortunate that he got elected as Labour leader and was a massive shock to me.
He wasn't and would have never have been my choice.
However, I loved most of his policies and still do.

In 2017 he came close to being PM.
Around 20 seats more and Mrs May would not only have lost her overall majority she'd have been left as the pariah Party particularly on the EU.
The DUP then unable to keep her in power.
With under 300 seats.

Perhaps had he quit after that election things could have been different now.

He will wrongly be tainted by the anti Semitic issue.
I don't believe he's antisemetic, what he is, is wholly supportive of the Palestinians.
That's not being antisemetic.

However, HE as the then leader of the time with Labour looked into by a full Equalities commission investigation.
He should have to, and would HAVE to, accept in full the findings and conclusions and directions from that commission .

This he has not done.
His really strongest supporters would say he's said sorry.
Sorry without action is NOT being sorry.
He has NEVER said he accepts the full result of the Equalities commission investigation.

So this action as to him now sadly has to be more right then wrong.

He's often been a difficult and critical Labour MP of Labour.
Nothing wrong in that.
Parties need more like that.

Perhaps however he does now need to think about just moving on to pastures new.
He would however I think more than likely win the constituency as an Independent.
He's been there coming on 40 years now.
He is widely believed to be a good constituency MP.

He cannot though be accepted by Labour now.
All he had to say was to thank the Commission for their investigation.
Apologise for any failings of his at the time and accept in FULL all the Equalities commission's conclusions and directives.
He hasn't and will not so that's why he's in this situation today.
That then is his choice.
People, foes and friends alike must make what they will of him as to that.

Starmer and the NEC however have acted correctly today in my view.

He apologised numerous times and accepted the findings, so really weird one this is joey.

We're talking about a party with AS levels lower than the country as a whole. It was nothing more than a smear then, as it remains so now.

I hope the unions and the left pull themselves out of the labour party for good, but they are too weak to do that unfortunately, so will continue to prop up the tory cover band.

[The Slim Reaper]

Is it coming from Starmer himself, or the NEC?

Starmer. The cowardly NEC went along with it.

[Kate!]

I'd 1 million times have Jeremy Corbyn over Keir Starmer the smarmy slimeball.

[joeysteele]

He apologised numerous times and accepted the findings, so really weird one this is joey.

We're talking about a party with AS levels lower than the country as a whole. It was nothing more than a smear then, as it remains so now.

I hope the unions and the left pull themselves out of the labour party for good, but they are too weak to do that unfortunately, so will continue to prop up the tory cover band.

I've heard him apologise in a general sense but I haven't heard him say he accepts the full conclusions of the Equalities investigation.

I don't see the current Labour Party as you see it now.
In my view it was far more Con like under Blair than now.

I still believe the Labour party has the compassion and sense of fair play balance needed to improve things.

Am I happy with Starmer, no.
Am I happy with all his likely policies, no.

I'm really annoyed he's dumped public ownership of energy and even railways.
I'm furious he intends to ignore an overwhelming vote at conference for PR.

Although a Labour party member, that doesn't mean I agree with all or even much they do.
However for me, this atrocious rotten from the core needs to be well and truly kicked out.
I'll support Starmer to do that, so am sticking with, just about sticking with though, Labour.
Because Labour is the ONLY way to turf this heartless and rotten lot out.
The ONLY way unfortunately.

I rarely like any Party leaders anyhow.
I can't recall a Con or Labour one I have so far in my lifetime.

I know you admire Corbyn and I'll agree he has been wrongly criticised most of the time.
I'm actually sad to see a Labour Party member and an MP for 40 years treated like this.
It's not a win situation at all.
I do wish Starmer had retained, as HE indicated he would, most of the aims of Corbyn's policies.
So I understand your fury and you are justified.

If I lived in say Scotland I'd likely be heading into the SNP fold myself.
Because really the 2 main parties have failed the UK all through.
Since the war, the Cons have governed as lead in governnent for 47 years.
Labour for 30 years.

Loooking through history, the only good government in my view was 1945 to 1951.
With the changes and policies they enacted.

All others have governed and failed in the main.
However under this dinosaur like undemocratic electoral system.
That failure will go on.
This last 13 years however for me should go down as the most incompetent and worst governed period EVER under this shambolic lot.

[Oliver_W]

To be fair the only apology from him that I ever saw included a half-hearted "All Lives Matter".

[The Slim Reaper]

I've heard him apologise in a general sense but I haven't heard him say he accepts the full conclusions of the Equalities investigation.

I don't see the current Labour Party as you see it now.
In my view it was far more Con like under Blair than now.

I still believe the Labour party has the compassion and sense of fair play balance needed to improve things.

Am I happy with Starmer, no.
Am I happy with all his likely policies, no.

I'm really annoyed he's dumped public ownership of energy and even railways.
I'm furious he intends to ignore an overwhelming vote at conference for PR.

Although a Labour party member, that doesn't mean I agree with all or even much they do.
However for me, this atrocious rotten from the core needs to be well and truly kicked out.
I'll support Starmer to do that, so am sticking with, just about sticking with though, Labour.
Because Labour is the ONLY way to turf this heartless and rotten lot out.
The ONLY way unfortunately.

I rarely like any Party leaders anyhow.
I can't recall a Con or Labour one I have so far in my lifetime.

I know you admire Corbyn and I'll agree he has been wrongly criticised most of the time.
I'm actually sad to see a Labour Party member and an MP for 40 years treated like this.
It's not a win situation at all.
I do wish Starmer had retained, as HE indicated he would, most of the aims of Corbyn's policies.
So I understand your fury and you are justified.

If I lived in say Scotland I'd likely be heading into the SNP fold myself.
Because really the 2 main parties have failed the UK all through.
Since the war, the Cons have governed as lead in governnent for 47 years.
Labour for 30 years.

Loooking through history, the only good government in my view was 1945 to 1951.
With the changes and policies they enacted.

All others have governed and failed in the main.
However under this dinosaur like undemocratic electoral system.
That failure will go on.
This last 13 years however for me should go down as the most incompetent and worst governed period EVER under this shambolic lot.

The motion didn't even mention As and was about the election results of 2019, in which more people voted for him than Milliband, Blair in 05, and Brown. Miliband now part of Starmers team. Everything that was thrown at Corbyn regarding Stalinist purges and factionalism is happening now, and if decent centrist labour folks like yourself accept that any mp can be removed on the whim of the current leader, against the wishes of his constituency, then you can't also claim to believe in the democracy of the party. I will never vote labour again, because labour doesn't want people who believe in democratic socialist ideals. A truly sad day for the party.

Starmer is an absolute fraud who is about as dishonest as Johnson if we look at everything he said versus reality. so if you want to support this, then be prepared to keep moaning (in the good sense) about starmer going back on even more things he's said. You know he's a liar, because you're interested in politics and specifically labour. He will walk the next election on the back of the tories; as would Corbyn, as would Milliband, as would Brown, but his tory impression isn't going to inspire anyone to give him a second term. Acting like a tory only works for tories, and voters will opt for the real thing. You know about the Forde report and the labour files, and that's what makes your compliance with this even more confusing. As smears were first thrown at Milliband and his Da - Corbyn was the only one to go on TV and defend them both. Milliband said in 2018 that he knew JC wasn't an AS, and yet went on TV today to lie about AS being the reason for the motion.

The tory party has collapsed, so this is the very time he could offer hope to voters that a fairer society is on the way, instead he's going on about cannabis smoke ruining lives. Fcuk me, what an inspiring message - We'll be harsher on everyone than the tories. He's trailing in the poll against Sunak about who will make the better PM, so everyone knows they will have to vote for him because tories need a stint on the subs bench, but he's not offering any kind of vision that is making people want to vote for him.

I'm glad you mentioned 45-51, because that is the kind of government Corbyn wanted. The one that the "greatest generation" chose after the horrors of WWII. We don't need to be a country of cruelty, we can do better.

[joeysteele]

The motion didn't even mention As and was about the election results of 2019, in which more people voted for him than Milliband, Blair in 05, and Brown. Miliband now part of Starmers team. Everything that was thrown at Corbyn regarding Stalinist purges and factionalism is happening now, and if decent centrist labour folks like yourself accept that any mp can be removed on the whim of the current leader, against the wishes of his constituency, then you can't also claim to believe in the democracy of the party. I will never vote labour again, because labour doesn't want people who believe in democratic socialist ideals. A truly sad day for the party.

Starmer is an absolute fraud who is about as dishonest as Johnson if we look at everything he said versus reality. so if you want to support this, then be prepared to keep moaning (in the good sense) about starmer going back on even more things he's said. You know he's a liar, because you're interested in politics and specifically labour. He will walk the next election on the back of the tories; as would Corbyn, as would Milliband, as would Brown, but his tory impression isn't going to inspire anyone to give him a second term. Acting like a tory only works for tories, and voters will opt for the real thing. You know about the Forde report and the labour files, and that's what makes your compliance with this even more confusing. As smears were first thrown at Milliband and his Da - Corbyn was the only one to go on TV and defend them both. Milliband said in 2018 that he knew JC wasn't an AS, and yet went on TV today to lie about AS being the reason for the motion.

The tory party has collapsed, so this is the very time he could offer hope to voters that a fairer society is on the way, instead he's going on about cannabis smoke ruining lives. Fcuk me, what an inspiring message - We'll be harsher on everyone than the tories. He's trailing in the poll against Sunak about who will make the better PM, so everyone knows they will have to vote for him because tories need a stint on the subs bench, but he's not offering any kind of vision that is making people want to vote for him.

I'm glad you mentioned 45-51, because that is the kind of government Corbyn wanted. The one that the "greatest generation" chose after the horrors of WWII. We don't need to be a country of cruelty, we can do better.

Hello Slim.
I get your anger at Starmer, as I have it too.
I also get you feel now Labour has failed you and likely will in government too.

That I don't agree on.
I still believe a better degree of fairness and compassion towards vulnerable plusvsi k and disabled will be more forthcoming from Labour than this heartless extreme bunch in now.

I still think the NHS will be better under Labour too.

So I can stick with them for those issues only if that's all they even had.

Immaterial of what the motion contained, my own main gripe with Corbyn is that he has NEVER accepted in full the Equalities commision conclusions AND directives given to deal with antisemetic issues.
He hasn't, and that's sadly for all and for him a fact.

I abhor antisemetism, I was personally got at on here with antisemitic inferences despite from my first understanding what it was, standing against it all my life.

There's NO real democracy in Parties now.
It's all about control.
That's why I now support PR.
It won't solve everything but it should make all Parties more accountable to themselves and the Country.

It's not a real democracy where a Party can get under 44% of the votes cast and get around 56/57% of the seats.
So having complete power over all voters and the Country.

Sunak hasn't made really big inroads to the best PM role.
Starmer never had a big lead over him.
The gap has narrowed from a single figure of 9 points ahead for Starmer to a 3 point lead for Starmer.
All Parties now have the worst possible leaders they could.
Polls change.
Plus figures and statistics can be made to say whatever one or the other want them too.

At present and I don't believe the really high leads for Labour myself.
All that seems to be is Sunak rates far higher than his Party.
While Starmer rates a bit lower than his Party.
They are meaningless though really.

I don't think IF Labour win the next election that it will be a one term situation.
Because Starmer has said PR is not for policy in THIS election.
So I can see him adopting it in the next election's manifesto.

That will unite every other Party in Westminster except the Cons.
I'm willing to wait and see and have that change without too much radical policy changes.
Blair made overtures to PR before he was PM.
He dumped it when he got a 179 overall majority.
Then he squandered a 160+majority after 2001.

Had he brought in PR for 2005.
We may never have had this Con led shambles from 2010, nor Brexit either.

I will use my time in Labour to fight with other members for the protection of the NHS and saving it.
For more compassion to the vulnerable and sick and disabled.

Also to fight for PR too to really shake up politics completely.
I think for the better.
With Parties having to work more closely together.

That's what I'll judge Labour on if it wins power.
Because none of those things will EVER come from this heartless Con party which has just got more power mad and extreme since 2010.

Yes too.
I think the 1945 to 1951 government is more like one needed now.
Definitely.
I'd hoped for that, however it's not at present forthcoming so that's another issue to strive for over the next 5 to 7 years.
In light of whatever the situation in the UK is during that time.

I'm not an admirer of Corbyn though.
His policies yes.
However he too could have adopted PR.
He says he believes in it, his then shadow Chancellor John McDonnell wanted it.
Corbyn threw it out too sadly.
He could have put the Lib Dems in a very difficult position had he adopted in in the 2019 manifesto.

That's my aim from my interest in politics and as a Labour party member.
Strive for PR, see more compassion to the vulnerable, sick and disabled and to build up again the NHS.
None of which the Cons will do or want to do even.

PR however only come from Labour adopting it as policy.
One thing is 100% sure.
The Cons never, EVER will adopt PR.
Because they would never have absolute power again and they know it.

[bots]

politics is a dirty game. That is the only truth

[Zizu]

politics is a dirty game. That is the only truth


Hallelujah !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[joeysteele]

politics is a dirty game. That is the only truth

It is indeed.
However it (politics) and elected politicians affect ALL our lives.

More control from the electorate is what is needed to be and should be put in place in my view.
This outdated, misrepresentative electoral system is one way to start changing things.

Make REAL votes REALLY count.

[Liam-]

Slim is 100% right about everything he says about Starmer and the current version of the Labour Party, his entire running platform is being just like the tories, but a little less bad and a bit more sensible, that is not what this country needs or what the people in this country are calling out for, he’s a snake and a proven liar

[Cherie]

Looks like alot of us Slim and Liam are now partyless, wonder what the turn out will be at the next GE

[Oliver_W]

Looks like alot of us Slim and Liam are now partyless, wonder what the turn out will be at the next GE

I guess you'll either vote for the least-bad option, or watch the Tories have another win without doing anything about it?

[Liam-]

Looks like alot of us Slim and Liam are now partyless, wonder what the turn out will be at the next GE

Oh no that’s where we differ, I’ll still be voting for Labour, albeit begrudgingly, in the current state of the country punishing the people that have spent the past 13 years systematically destroying this country is the the priority, ideologically? Yes, politically homeless

[Cherie]

Oh no that’s where we differ, I’ll still be voting for Labour, albeit begrudgingly, in the current state of the country punishing the people that have spent the past 13 years systematically destroying this country is the the priority, ideologically? Yes, politically homeless

Oh okay

[bots]

i will vote to get the tories out of office. Another term from them would be an absolute disaster. Labour will just be finding their feet, so there is much less chance of damage from them

[The Slim Reaper]

I guess you'll either vote for the least-bad option, or watch the Tories have another win without doing anything about it?

I'd happily watch the tories at this point, because a starmer government will be virtually the same thing as he's every bit as duplicitous as Johnson. Watching the 2 leaders debate which is the worst thing ever between kids in parks or cannabis smoke, as the country is on it's arse, is pandering to the very worst aspects of this country.

Nothing positive is coming from either of these two parties, Keir is already pushing growth as his pledge, but that's the exact same trickle down model as the other lot, and will only lead to more destruction of communities and cuts, but he will pretend it's sensible and grown up. The country needs investment not more pandering to capital and corporations.

I hope jeremy grows a massive pair and starts his own party, because the parties unrestrained are going to destroy the country even more. A corbyn socialist party wiould take a lot of voters away from labour, and unless Keir has something progressive to offer them in his manifesto, his certain election victory would suddenly be in very real jeopardy.

[The Slim Reaper]

Hello Slim.
I get your anger at Starmer, as I have it too.
I also get you feel now Labour has failed you and likely will in government too.

That I don't agree on.
I still believe a better degree of fairness and compassion towards vulnerable plusvsi k and disabled will be more forthcoming from Labour than this heartless extreme bunch in now.

I still think the NHS will be better under Labour too.

So I can stick with them for those issues only if that's all they even had.

Immaterial of what the motion contained, my own main gripe with Corbyn is that he has NEVER accepted in full the Equalities commision conclusions AND directives given to deal with antisemetic issues.
He hasn't, and that's sadly for all and for him a fact.

I abhor antisemetism, I was personally got at on here with antisemitic inferences despite from my first understanding what it was, standing against it all my life.

There's NO real democracy in Parties now.
It's all about control.
That's why I now support PR.
It won't solve everything but it should make all Parties more accountable to themselves and the Country.

It's not a real democracy where a Party can get under 44% of the votes cast and get around 56/57% of the seats.
So having complete power over all voters and the Country.

Sunak hasn't made really big inroads to the best PM role.
Starmer never had a big lead over him.
The gap has narrowed from a single figure of 9 points ahead for Starmer to a 3 point lead for Starmer.
All Parties now have the worst possible leaders they could.
Polls change.
Plus figures and statistics can be made to say whatever one or the other want them too.

At present and I don't believe the really high leads for Labour myself.
All that seems to be is Sunak rates far higher than his Party.
While Starmer rates a bit lower than his Party.
They are meaningless though really.

I don't think IF Labour win the next election that it will be a one term situation.
Because Starmer has said PR is not for policy in THIS election.
So I can see him adopting it in the next election's manifesto.

That will unite every other Party in Westminster except the Cons.
I'm willing to wait and see and have that change without too much radical policy changes.
Blair made overtures to PR before he was PM.
He dumped it when he got a 179 overall majority.
Then he squandered a 160+majority after 2001.

Had he brought in PR for 2005.
We may never have had this Con led shambles from 2010, nor Brexit either.

I will use my time in Labour to fight with other members for the protection of the NHS and saving it.
For more compassion to the vulnerable and sick and disabled.

Also to fight for PR too to really shake up politics completely.
I think for the better.
With Parties having to work more closely together.

That's what I'll judge Labour on if it wins power.
Because none of those things will EVER come from this heartless Con party which has just got more power mad and extreme since 2010.

Yes too.
I think the 1945 to 1951 government is more like one needed now.
Definitely.
I'd hoped for that, however it's not at present forthcoming so that's another issue to strive for over the next 5 to 7 years.
In light of whatever the situation in the UK is during that time.

I'm not an admirer of Corbyn though.
His policies yes.
However he too could have adopted PR.
He says he believes in it, his then shadow Chancellor John McDonnell wanted it.
Corbyn threw it out too sadly.
He could have put the Lib Dems in a very difficult position had he adopted in in the 2019 manifesto.

That's my aim from my interest in politics and as a Labour party member.
Strive for PR, see more compassion to the vulnerable, sick and disabled and to build up again the NHS.
None of which the Cons will do or want to do even.

PR however only come from Labour adopting it as policy.
One thing is 100% sure.
The Cons never, EVER will adopt PR.
Because they would never have absolute power again and they know it.

Hope you're having a good day.

That is complete pie in the sky, unless Starmer is hitting us with the ol' double bluff. There is nothing progressive about the man, and all the things you say you want, are the things that people have been purged out of the party for wanting, so I wouldn't debate any one within reach of Starmers ear if I were you, otherwise you might get one of those "you're being investigated" emails, they've been sending out with increasing regularity.

[joeysteele]

Hope you're having a good day.

That is complete pie in the sky, unless Starmer is hitting us with the ol' double bluff. There is nothing progressive about the man, and all the things you say you want, are the things that people have been purged out of the party for wanting, so I wouldn't debate any one within reach of Starmers ear if I were you, otherwise you might get one of those "you're being investigated" emails, they've been sending out with increasing regularity.


Really Slim.
That's an overexaggeration.
I don't see that scenario you're saying at all.

Under Corbyn's leadership there were issues too with candidacy and members.
Which equally was overexaggerrated too.

Labour has a leader you don't like now that's clear.
I don't like him either.
I haven't liked the last 3 Labour leaders but I haven't give up on the party.

I still believe and there's NO reason to think otherwise, that Labour will more protect the most vulnerable, sick and disabled and THAT is an issue which is extremely important to me.
For many years now I've supported and canvassed for better treatment of the sick and disabled after the humiliating and degrading criteria brought in of the testing of them by this government.
Also supported by the Lib Dems in the coalition too.
Disgraceful.

The NHS too has always been important to me.
It's why I voted against the Cons with my first election vote in 2010.
The NHS has been decimated by this Con government.and so again, I believe Labour will need to reform it now in light of that but I firmly believe Labour will save it and protect it.
As they did up to 2010.

So I don't see this awful Labour you do.
So I won't be leaving it yet.
Just because it's got a leader I don't like.

It's not pie in the sky what I listed in my post.
The party has voted overwhelmingly for PR as Labour policy.
I'm not happy Starmer has ruled that out but he's stated it's not a policy for to put forward in the next election.
So I can hold onto the feeling he's looking at a 2nd term.
Which could contain very different policies.
So PR is not pie in the sky.
It does look like Labour will be the main Party to adopt it as policy hopefully in the manifesto of the election after the next one.
I can accept that.

Neither is the better treatment of the vulnerable and sick and disabled just pie in the sky.
Nor is the need to get these current Cons away from the NHS.

So I will support again Labour because as even bots said.
Another term of the Cons would be disastrous.
He is dead right and I'm never going to do anything to even just risk another term of this heartless Con government.
No way.

Certainly never going to risk that because Labour has a useless leader.

They've all been useless since Blair.
From Brown to Corbyn Labour had 4, yes 4 election defeats.
It was bad enough in 2015 under Miliband.
However in 2019 it was a massive rout as to seats.
Even worse than 1983 when the opposition votes were split between Labour and the SDP/LIB Alliance.

Starmer is an awful leader, then again I don't think Labour has had a good one since John Smith.
Plus in my view all the Parties now have a bad leader.
So the choice is dire anyhow as to leadership.

Wishing you well Slim.
I had a fairly good day yesterday thank you.

[The Slim Reaper]

Really Slim.
That's an overexaggeration.
I don't see that scenario you're saying at all.

Under Corbyn's leadership there were issues too with candidacy and members.
Which equally was overexaggerrated too.

Labour has a leader you don't like now that's clear.
I don't like him either.
I haven't liked the last 3 Labour leaders but I haven't give up on the party.

I still believe and there's NO reason to think otherwise, that Labour will more protect the most vulnerable, sick and disabled and THAT is an issue which is extremely important to me.
For many years now I've supported and canvassed for better treatment of the sick and disabled after the humiliating and degrading criteria brought in of the testing of them by this government.
Also supported by the Lib Dems in the coalition too.
Disgraceful.

The NHS too has always been important to me.
It's why I voted against the Cons with my first election vote in 2010.
The NHS has been decimated by this Con government.and so again, I believe Labour will need to reform it now in light of that but I firmly believe Labour will save it and protect it.
As they did up to 2010.

So I don't see this awful Labour you do.
So I won't be leaving it yet.
Just because it's got a leader I don't like.

It's not pie in the sky what I listed in my post.
The party has voted overwhelmingly for PR as Labour policy.
I'm not happy Starmer has ruled that out but he's stated it's not a policy for to put forward in the next election.
So I can hold onto the feeling he's looking at a 2nd term.
Which could contain very different policies.
So PR is not pie in the sky.
It does look like Labour will be the main Party to adopt it as policy hopefully in the manifesto of the election after the next one.
I can accept that.

Neither is the better treatment of the vulnerable and sick and disabled just pie in the sky.
Nor is the need to get these current Cons away from the NHS.

So I will support again Labour because as even bots said.
Another term of the Cons would be disastrous.
He is dead right and I'm never going to do anything to even just risk another term of this heartless Con government.
No way.

Certainly never going to risk that because Labour has a useless leader.

They've all been useless since Blair.
From Brown to Corbyn Labour had 4, yes 4 election defeats.
It was bad enough in 2015 under Miliband.
However in 2019 it was a massive rout as to seats.
Even worse than 1983 when the opposition votes were split between Labour and the SDP/LIB Alliance.

Starmer is an awful leader, then again I don't think Labour has had a good one since John Smith.
Plus in my view all the Parties now have a bad leader.
So the choice is dire anyhow as to leadership.

Wishing you well Slim.
I had a fairly good day yesterday thank you.

As always, Joey, only time will tell which of us is correct, but for what it's worth, I genuinely hope it's you.

I'm not leaving labour behind, they've said they don't want the likes of me any more, and regardless of how each of us thinks, opposing views have never been unwelcome in the party before now.

[arista]

Jeremy Corbyn
needs to stand as a Independent,

Or Take Starmer and the NEC
to court.


Which one
Slim?

[bots]

As always, Joey, only time will tell which of us is correct, but for what it's worth, I genuinely hope it's you.

I'm not leaving labour behind, they've said they don't want the likes of me any more, and regardless of how each of us thinks, opposing views have never been unwelcome in the party before now.

the lib dems just said that those that don't support gender reform are not welcome in their party, before the last election, Boris said anyone not supporting brexit was not welcome in the conservative party

Whatever happened to being inclusive. It's more exclusive now than i can ever recall from the last 50 years

[The Slim Reaper]

Jeremy Corbyn
needs to stand as a Independent,

Or Take Starmer and the NEC
to court.


Which one
Slim?

Even to this day, Jeremy is still a loyal labour man, so I fear he will retire. If I was advising him, I'd tell him to bin them all off, and start up a Socialist party, and put the election in doubt for Starmer, because the left is screaming out for an alternative, and 66% of those polled in the uk recently said they'd like a 33rd party to come and challenge bothe labour and the tories.

If Jeremy stands as an independent he wins really easily

[The Slim Reaper]

the lib dems just said that those that don't support gender reform are not welcome in their party, before the last election, Boris said anyone not supporting brexit was not welcome in the conservative party

Whatever happened to being inclusive. It's more exclusive now than i can ever recall from the last 50 years

How I see it, is we've almost become more presidential in our elections, with them being about the personalities of the leaders. Jeremy had a really inclusive labour party, which ultimately ended up hurting him more than helping him, as the right of his party actively sabotaged winnable seats to hurt him.

At least in the US, they really are about the personalities of the leaders, but we have a different system here, so this has killed the inclusitivity and plurality in the parties. There is no head over there to choose which candidates stand for which seats, but here they can be used and bargained for, in order to secure blind loyalty (see nads over Boris), and nor do we have the lords, where more blind loyalty can see them rewarded for life, not just 4-8 years.

[arista]

Even to this day, Jeremy is still a loyal labour man, so I fear he will retire. If I was advising him, I'd tell him to bin them all off, and start up a Socialist party, and put the election in doubt for Starmer, because the left is screaming out for an alternative, and 66% of those polled in the uk recently said they'd like a 33rd party to come and challenge bothe labour and the tories.

If Jeremy stands as an independent he wins really easily


No, he does not want to Retire
the local people need him

[bots]

he can stand as independent labour if he wants, plenty have done it in the past

[The Slim Reaper]

No, he does not want to Retire
the local people need him

The whole goddamn country needed him.

Then he will either stand as an independent, join the greens, or start his own party.

My preference would be for him to start his own,party, which would then force the labour party back to the left in order to take some of the voters back.
200k people joined the labour party because of Jeremy, and have since left, so there is a bloc of voters that could turn the election (including those that have stayed) if Jeremy did that.

Joining the greens would be really interesting, as he could transform them into a relevant party over night.

[arista]

He had a chance Slim
December 2019 General Election
he failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

[Liam-]

He had a chance Slim
December 2019 General Election
he failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_United_Kingdom_general_election

Yes, because snakes in his own party sabotaged him and did everything they could to get Boris elected, the very same people that are now eternally outraged at the government we got because they didn’t an actual progressive government

[arista]

Yes, because snakes in his own party sabotaged him and did everything they could to get Boris elected, the very same people that are now eternally outraged at the government we got because they didn’t an actual progressive government


Snakes
the New Labour Gang


For Sure

[Oliver_W]

and 66% of those polled in the uk recently said they'd like a 33rd party to come and challenge bothe labour and the tories.
Strangely specific, I didn't even know there were 32 parties :hehe:

If Jeremy stands as an independent he wins really easily
Depends if his constituents votes for the man or the party?

[joeysteele]

I personally think Corbyn should stand as Independent Labour.
My own guess is he'd win.
So then continue as an MP with an even greater freedom to speak out on all and anything he likes and how.

If we had PR.
Then starting a new Party would have been a good option too however new Parties under this discredited electoral system don't fare well.
The Greens get 5% + in elections and only have the solitary 1 seat.
First past the post is not welcoming or generous to new Parties.

[Oliver_W]

There's no real way to implement PR while maintaining a Parliamentary system, in which we vote for who we want to represent our area in the Commons. If the percentage of the overall population was allocated per-seat, there'd be no way to ensure we'd get an MP for the party for whom we voted.

[The Slim Reaper]

Strangely specific, I didn't even know there were 32 parties :hehe:


Depends if his constituents votes for the man or the party?

What? You don't know about the other 30 political parties? Well that's definitely on you and definitely not my error, no siree :smug:

His constituents love him, because he does the job he is paid to do - he works in local homelessness centres, he's in the community fixing problems and being visible and available. He got 73% of the vote last time out, and any person Keir stands against him will probably be some corporate CEO type.Especially if we look at what he's been doing in Leicester recently.

[joeysteele]

There's no real way to implement PR while maintaining a Parliamentary system, in which we vote for who we want to represent our area in the Commons. If the percentage of the overall population was allocated per-seat, there'd be no way to ensure we'd get an MP for the party for whom we voted.

The Labour conference passed overwhelmingly to adopt PR.
There's only ONE Party in Westminster who wouldn't have it and that's the Cons.

PR is now used in Mayoral elections, police and crime commissioner elections, the N Ireland assembly, the Welsh parliament AND the Scottish parliament.

There are many forms of PR and it wouldn't be impossible to retain the more constituency link to MP.

The difference would be people voting and for the over 25% who never vote in elections, of whom would be likely more to vote in PR, would then the difference would mean they not only believed but would know, their votes really counted and that NO Party could get just over 40% of the votes but get power with overall majorities of 80.
That's the real scandal and should be an affront to UK real democracy.
First past the post encourages extreme governments it doesn't prevent them.

First past the post was fine when the 2 main parties got over 85%+ of votes cast between them.
Now they get on or under 75% is ridiculous for one to get absolute power.

Labour got around 36% of votes in 2005, the Cons got just over 32%
Yet Labour got an overall majority of 68.
That's obscene.

[The Slim Reaper]

Joke of a party keeps joking. Not the same as tories, though...

1641375529768026112

Good news though, because they are going to use a windfall tax on energy companies to freeze your council tax for a year, whilst the energy oligarchy make off with record profits at voters expense.

[Oliver_W]

PR is now used in Mayoral elections, police and crime commissioner elections, the N Ireland assembly, the Welsh parliament AND the Scottish parliament.

All of which are for local governance, not the entire country as a whole.

[Liam-]

What? You don't know about the other 30 political parties? Well that's definitely on you and definitely not my error, no siree :smug:

His constituents love him, because he does the job he is paid to do - he works in local homelessness centres, he's in the community fixing problems and being visible and available. He got 73% of the vote last time out, and any person Keir stands against him will probably be some corporate CEO type.Especially if we look at what he's been doing in Leicester recently.

Apparently the person they want to select instead of him is something to do with a private health care business

[The Slim Reaper]

Apparently the person they want to select instead of him is something to do with a private health care business

I was half joking when I said a corporate CEO, but if they do this, then even Joey might start to think something doesn't smell right :laugh:

[joeysteele]

All of which are for local governance, not the entire country as a whole.

??? What..
The N. Irish assembly is for the whole of N Ireland.
The Scottish assembly is for the whole country of Scotland.
The Welsh assembly for the whole country of Wales.

When we were in the EU for decades the elections for there all across the UK were under PR.

If Scotland were to get independence or had already they'd be using PR.
Or are Scotland and Wales not countries but just like shires of England.

[Oliver_W]

Or are Scotland and Wales not countries but just like shires of England.
Politically ... yes?

The UK is, effectively and politically, one big country. Some of the satelite areas might have a semblance of devolution, but we're all governed from Westminster.

[joeysteele]

Politically ... yes?

The UK is, effectively and politically, one big country. Some of the satelite areas might have a semblance of devolution, but we're all governed from Westminster.

I doubt Scots and Welsh would agree with that.
It's supposed to be a United Kingdom of 4 Nations.

I take it then you don't like PR elections you'd prefer the shambles we get as to both Labour and Con governnents under first past the post.
With its disproportionate resulting overall majorities.

That's not for me, such an undemocratic system, sorry.

[Oliver_W]

I doubt Scots and Welsh would agree with that.
It's supposed to be a United Kingdom of 4 Nations.


Nation is fine because it's a relatively neutral and ambiguous term. We're a country made up of nations.

I'm not even going to limit to four - what we call the West Country was basically once a Celtic kingdom called Dumnonia, so there's no reason that can't be one of the Nations too! Rock on, Scotland, Wales, Norn Iron, Dumnonia, and England!!

I take it then you don't like PR elections you'd prefer the shambles we get as to both Labour and Con governnents under first past the post.

It's not about liking or disliking PR. It's about having a system already in place which isn't compatible with PR.

You sound like you have an ear to the ground, do the plans go beyond "we should have PR," are there proposals as to how the seats would be distributed in a representative manner, compared to what we have now?

[bots]

Politically ... yes?

The UK is, effectively and politically, one big country. Some of the satelite areas might have a semblance of devolution, but we're all governed from Westminster.

politically, scotland couldn't be more different than england, and it's been that way for a long, long, long time. Scottish people just don't think the same way as people in london.

[Oliver_W]

Scottish people just don't think the same way as people in london.

Same could be said for Yorkish people and Londoners.

Sheet, I doubt even Chiswickians and Tower Hamlet Denizens are the same as one another.

[bots]

Same could be said for Yorkish people and Londoners.

Scotland has a completely devolved parliament, it's as close to being independent as it could be without actually being independent. It's nothing like Wales

[Oliver_W]

Scotland has a completely devolved parliament, it's as close to being independent as it could be without actually being independent. It's nothing like Wales

"Hi, this is Section 35 calling..."

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/E69AGT/black-woman-on-phone-using-tablet-computer-E69AGT.jpg

[joeysteele]

Nation is fine because it's a relatively neutral and ambiguous term. We're a country made up of nations.

I'm not even going to limit to four - what we call the West Country was basically once a Celtic kingdom called Dumnonia, so there's no reason that can't be one of the Nations too! Rock on, Scotland, Wales, Norn Iron, Dumnonia, and England!!

It's not about liking or disliking PR. It's about having a system already in place which isn't compatible with PR.

You sound like you have an ear to the ground, do the plans go beyond "we should have PR," are there proposals as to how the seats would be distributed in a representative manner, compared to what we have now?


Your last paragraph is important.
It's why we need a debate on PR, all the forms of it and HOW PR could be evolved into as much as possible holding constituency/.MP connection.
Although I think you'd even be surprised just how many and the massive high numbers, who haven't a clue who their MP is anyhow.

I as a Labour party member along with hoards of other members, have fought hard for years to steer a Labour conference to vote for PR.

I've learned to PR since my Uni days.
Now I really support it.
It was overwhelmingly supported at the Labour conference in 2022.
(Starmer won't it seems, take it on for the next manifesto unfortunately).

Because the debate needs to be had, with other Parties who want it too in my view.
Plus to debate and plan a PR system which will be more ideal of reflecting seats for votes from votes cast, for future elections.

To get PR even possible, one of the usual governing main Parties needed to want it too.
Labour is now a Party that wants it , has voted for it.
We now have to persuade the leader of the Party and his Cabinet to accept the conference decision.
It seems Starmer won't for the next election manifesto.
Which annoys me but it would have to be the right PR system so more debate and a bit more time to wait is something I can take.

Every single other Party in Westminster, want PR in elections now.
Even the DUP from N Ireland.

Only one doesn't, the Cons.
Because they know the power they get to abuse while in power will never likely be given them again under PR.

For me the main bonus is NO Party under PR will then get absolute power for getting over 40% votes for them, while well over 50% of voters have voted against them.
For me, that's more like real democracy.