Scotland passes controversial legislation : Aged 16 can legally change sex

[arista]

[SNP Minister Ash Regan was forced to
quit over her objection.]

[The bill means:

• The minimum age at which someone
can apply for a gender recognition
certificate (GRC) will be lowered to 16 from 18.
• There will no longer be a need for a
medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria in
order to receive a GRC.]

[However its passage in Holyrood doesn't
mean the bill could still face hold ups,
with the UK government already
suggesting it could block it
gaining Royal Assent.]

https://news.sky.com/story/minimum-age-for-applying-to-change-gender-in-scotland-lowered-to-16-as-controversial-reform-bill-passes-12772652

[Oliver_W]

Ridiculous.

Anti-woman.

[Crimson Dynamo]

hopefully this will be the final nail in the coffin for this reckless administration

[arista]

The Backlash


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/12/22/19/65860857-11566457-image-a-5_1671736002352.jpg


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/12/22/19/65860853-11566457-image-a-12_1671736310496.jpg

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/12/22/19/65860861-11566457-image-a-11_1671736306563.jpg

[arista]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/12/22/19/65860849-11566457-image-a-7_1671736088804.jpg
[Ex-SNP Minister Ash Regan
speaks at the For Women Scotland
and the Scottish Feminist Network
demonstration outside the
Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11566457/Shame-Protests-Nicola-Sturgeons-SNP-pushes-controversial-gender-law.html

[GoldHeart]

Well done Sturgeon you complete fruitcake !
:notimpressed: .

[Cherie]

Very sad that a woman has championed this, it could be the end for her

[UserSince2005]

that susan boyle look alike with her pussy out in parliament, nicola was drooling lol

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-6649998b-389c-4536-aff2-a39d14f1bf71.png

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-05f3f506-9b57-4648-8d04-65831adf7ad2.jpeg

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-f91fe162-4dfb-49c9-81ab-ab05e1a56e79.png

[Mystic Mock]

I honestly don't mean any malice towards the Trans community when I say this.

But 16 is too young, I think we've all held beliefs about ourselves at 16 that can completely change once your older.

Imo it should stay at 18 being the minimum.

[bots]

i have no problem with the age being 16, you are then an adult, can join the army and die for your country, i just have a problem with a woman putting women's safety at increased risk

[Mystic Mock]

i have no problem with the age being 16, you are then an adult, can join the army and die for your country, i just have a problem with a woman putting women's safety at increased risk

Controversially I don't agree with 16 year olds joining the Army either.

For me I feel that 16 year olds shouldn't be allowed to do life altering stuff that they can't reverse if they regret their decision later on in life.

And hopefully women's safety won't be in danger, I honestly hope that's just scaremongering from the Media.

[Oliver_W]

FYI 16 year olds in the army can't be put on any kind of "front line", so they can't die for their country.

[bots]

FYI 16 year olds in the army can't be put on any kind of "front line", so they can't die for their country.

in recent conflicts involving the UK, there have been more forces killed fulfilling logistical roles than in combat

[Oliver_W]

in recent conflicts involving the UK, there have been more forces killed fulfilling logistical roles than in combat

Well quite. But either way, the rhetoric of "16 year olds can X so they should be able to Y" doesn't really work.

[user104658]

It's a massive self-inflicted shot to the foot for the SNP; I don't think they realise that yet, but I have a feeling they're going to find out.

[GoldHeart]

I honestly don't mean any malice towards the Trans community when I say this.

But 16 is too young, I think we've all held beliefs about ourselves at 16 that can completely change once your older.

Imo it should stay at 18 being the minimum.

It was discussed on Jeremy Vine .

I forgot her name...but a woman on the panel expressed her concerns for women's spaces, I bet she'll get labelled a 'terf' . She was treading so carefully with her words, but you just know....it makes no difference in this daffy duck world these days . She made some good points aswell.


And if you can't vote or drink at 16 , why on earth is it ok to change your gender instantly.

[GoldHeart]

i have no problem with the age being 16, you are then an adult, can join the army and die for your country, i just have a problem with a woman putting women's safety at increased risk

16 is not an adult ...you are still a minor in the eyes of the law :facepalm: , this is why here in the UK age of consent is a huge mess . I've never agreed with age of consent being 16 .

Age of consent should be 18 ,and technically to do grown up things in general it should be 18 & over .

And I know this will split opinion & be controversial, but you could even argue that 18 is still too young for gender reassignment. How many of us know what we wanted at 18 let alone 16 ??.

I still think the brain develops more after you reach 21 , and things could change. But I would prefer the age to be 18 than 16 .

[user104658]

It's a simple and undeniable fact that more (far more) than half of teens who experiment with gender norms and roles as part of figuring out their adult identity (which, genuinely, I don't think there's anything wrong with as a standalone concept) will ultimately revert to their natal sex when they realise that it doesn't mean having to stick to historically defined gender roles. We legitimately know this from years of study. Most teens who experiment don't go on to transition.

Thus, allowing the transition process to begin in the teens is flat-out unethical.

In fact the very idea of even suggesting to kids and teenagers that they should have any real idea of who they are while they're still developing both physically and intellectually is abhorrent to me and it's becoming an increasing problem. No one should identify or be identified as anything other than "a kid figuring life out" until 21, bare minimum, more realistically 25.

[user104658]

I still think the brain develops more after you reach 21 , and things could change. But I would prefer the age to be 18 than 16 .

Yes as above 21 as a bare minimum but realistically much later. To be honest... any adult who claims that they were they're even vaguely the same person at 30+ as they were at 21 is surely flat out lying.

[GoldHeart]

It's a simple and undeniable fact that more (far more) than half of teens who experiment with gender norms and roles as part of figuring out their adult identity (which, genuinely, I don't think there's anything wrong with as a standalone concept) will ultimately revert to their natal sex when they realise that it doesn't mean having to stick to historically defined gender roles. We legitimately know this from years of study. Most teens who experiment don't go on to transition.

Thus, allowing the transition process to begin in the teens is flat-out unethical.

In fact the very idea of even suggesting to kids and teenagers that they should have any real idea of who they are while they're still developing both physically and intellectually is abhorrent to me and it's becoming an increasing problem. No one should identify or be identified as anything other than "a kid figuring life out" until 21, bare minimum, more realistically 25.

:clap1:

[GoldHeart]

Yes as above 21 as a bare minimum but realistically much later. To be honest... any adult who claims that they were they're even vaguely the same person at 30+ as they were at 21 is surely flat out lying.

Exactly
I know .. myself that I'm nowhere near the same ,as I was when I was 16-18 years old maturity wise . Even when I was 19- 21 ...I was not as mature or level headed as I am now ,and as adults we all still make mistakes . And we're all still learning.

[Redway]

I don't believe that 16's nearly old enough but from a prerogative-entitlement lens I don't think it's too unreasonable. I'm not the one to go looking for conflict and pick pointless arguments with strangers for no reason so whatever pronouns they'd rather we use in reference to them I'd just use. There are some people on this thread who would be legally opposed to anyone (even 18/21+ folk) from transitioning in any case if they had it their way so age isn't necessarily the determining deal-breaker here, not as far as I can tell.

[Redway]

Controversially I don't agree with 16 year olds joining the Army either.

For me I feel that 16 year olds shouldn't be allowed to do life altering stuff that they can't reverse if they regret their decision later on in life.

And hopefully women's safety won't be in danger, I honestly hope that's just scaremongering from the Media.

That's probably not as controversial as you think. Who's going to put a 16-year-old on front-line?

[Mystic Mock]

That's probably not as controversial as you think. Who's going to put a 16-year-old on front-line?

That is true tbf.

You just never know how people will respond though in 2022.:joker:

[arista]

1606006671322406912

[hijaxers]

Please let this be the end of Nicola Sturgeon, she's gone completely nuts. Government must stop this insanity.

[Crimson Dynamo]

1606006671322406912

Look how that creepy simp sees it as "losing"

as if its a game

vile

[Oliver_W]

Look how that creepy simp sees it as "losing"

as if its a game

vile

The only thing being lost is women's rights.

Vile indeed.

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-e9178a90-789f-4ab5-b093-a10be892457a.png

[Redway]

The only thing being lost is women's rights.

Vile indeed.

How are women’s rights or generally anything other than the intrinsic right of teenagers to experimentation bound within certain limits being lost?

[Redway]

That is true tbf.

You just never know how people will respond though in 2022.:joker:

Yeah, screw them. Sometimes you’ve just got to say what you want to say and let people argue amongst themselves about how they want to react. But I can assure you that no-one’s going to bite your head off for pointing out that 16-year-olds are just a little too young to be on front line.

[Mystic Mock]

Yeah, screw them. Sometimes you’ve just got to say what you want to say and let people argue amongst themselves about how they want to react. But I can assure you that no-one’s going to bite your head off for pointing out that 16-year-olds are just a little too young to be on front line.

Thanks Redway, that's honestly reassuring.

[Oliver_W]

How are women’s rights or generally anything other than the intrinsic right of teenagers to experimentation bound within certain limits being lost?

Because their right to woman-only spaces has been eroded that little bit more.

[bots]

there are giant loop holes in the legislation and sturgeon refused to have any amendments that would have gone a long way to calming womens fears. That, primarily, is why there is so much anger about the whole thing

[arista]

The Labour leader
is backing this move

Some in his Party are not


Times Radio and LBC debated it.

[arista]

Another Live Debate
on this, on LBC
now

[GoldHeart]

Please let this be the end of Nicola Sturgeon, she's gone completely nuts. Government must stop this insanity.

They won't stop it though , and I agree ... she's lost the plot.

[GoldHeart]

That is true tbf.

You just never know how people will respond though in 2022.:joker:

Yeah 2022 is the egg shell Daffy duck era it seems.

[Parmy]

there are giant loop holes in the legislation and sturgeon refused to have any amendments that would have gone a long way to calming womens fears. That, primarily, is why there is so much anger about the whole thing

As usual she just ploughs ahead regardless.

[arista]

1606768986565185536

[arista]

Well Labour and SNP
back it.

Conservatives Will Not

[Oliver_W]

Has been blocked by the UK Government. Good. Didn't realise they cared about women.

Though the tin foil hat in me wonders if Sturgeon did this deliberately, so she could crow on about how they "need" independence, and that the UK Gov protecting women's rights is an affront to Scotland's agency, and blahhblahh.

[hijaxers]

Has been blocked by the UK Government. Good. Didn't realise they cared about women.

Though the tin foil hat in me wonders if Sturgeon did this deliberately, so she could crow on about how they "need" independence, and that the UK Gov protecting women's rights is an affront to Scotland's agency, and blahhblahh.

I think Scotland needs a break from Sturgeon and her mental ideas. Well donr Richie.

[joeysteele]

Whatever anyone's thoughts on that vote in the Scottish parliament.

I cannot see at all how this Con government taking them on and going to block it, will help at all relations between the elected Scottish parliament and Westminster.

Likely even more division being brought into play again unfortunately

[bots]

i don't agree with the legislation passed in Scotland, but their legitimate parliament made the decision. Scottish people must be allowed to judge if it was good or bad and then judge their mp's accordingly. Now, al the scots will see is england interfering and the scottish parliament not held responsible for their actions

[Oliver_W]

i don't agree with the legislation passed in Scotland, but their legitimate parliament made the decision. Scottish people must be allowed to judge if it was good or bad and then judge their mp's accordingly. Now, al the scots will see is england interfering and the scottish parliament not held responsible for their actions

I doubt many people would object to safeguarding being upheld.

[joeysteele]

i don't agree with the legislation passed in Scotland, but their legitimate parliament made the decision. Scottish people must be allowed to judge if it was good or bad and then judge their mp's accordingly. Now, al the scots will see is england interfering and the scottish parliament not held responsible for their actions

Spot on.
I agree.

[GoldHeart]

I think Scotland needs a break from Sturgeon and her mental ideas. Well donr Richie.

Sturgeon is a mess , she needs a wake up call

[Liam-]

Interfering in a completely democratic process is not a good look for the government

[Oliver_W]

Interfering in a completely democratic process is not a good look for the government

I agree it's not necessarily the best look, but nor is removing women's safeguards. Makes me wonder if Sturgeon wanted to push it through because she knew the gov would stop it, giving her something to whine about.

[joeysteele]

Interfering in a completely democratic process is not a good look for the government

Not at all it's not.
I fully agree Liam.

[Liam-]

One might think they’ve done this to take attention away from the fact yet another ex-chancellor has been caught out doing a little tax evasion

[Parmy]

Och, Bless their wee hearts, when they reach 21 it will finally be all over, and they can introduce themselves to the world as a new person after missing out on the best 5 years of their lives.

[Parmy]

Ridiculous.

Anti-woman.

Unless it's a women that wants to be a man.

[Parmy]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-f91fe162-4dfb-49c9-81ab-ab05e1a56e79.png

Aids?

[Parmy]

16 is not an adult ...you are still a minor in the eyes of the law :facepalm: , this is why here in the UK age of consent is a huge mess . I've never agreed with age of consent being 16 .

Age of consent should be 18 ,and technically to do grown up things in general it should be 18 & over .

And I know this will split opinion & be controversial, but you could even argue that 18 is still too young for gender reassignment. How many of us know what we wanted at 18 let alone 16 ??.

I still think the brain develops more after you reach 21 , and things could change. But I would prefer the age to be 18 than 16 .



I think by the age of 18 and all the years of feeling the way they have, they would know their own minds.

[Parmy]

I do feel sympathy for kids stuck in the middle of all this. It is something far bigger than what I went through at 16. I was convinced I was a mod, then the extacy kicked off and I realised I wasnt a raver..I was a mod that liked pills.

I could so easily have become a raver though at that age.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I do feel sympathy for kids stuck in the middle of all this. It is something far bigger than what I went through at 16. I was convinced I was a mod, then the extacy kicked off and I realised I wasnt a raver..I was a mod that liked pills.

I could so easily have become a raver though at that age.Parmy i feel for your journey

[Mystic Mock]

Interfering in a completely democratic process is not a good look for the government

I agree with you on that.

Regardless of where people stand on this issue, it should be up to Scotland to decide what laws that they want to pass through.

[Parmy]

Parmy i feel for your journey

I'm fine.

I've made my own flag.:smug:

[UserSince2005]

Got to love the Scot’s being told what to do by an Indian :laugh:

[Parmy]

I agree with you on that.

Regardless of where people stand on this issue, it should be up to Scotland to decide what laws that they want to pass through.

If only us scots had a chance to decide.:joker:

Seemingly we are ran by the same democratic ****e as Westminster. Only up here these days its mo wven close..folk in one party get chucked out for opposing legislation set by the Scottish parliament only one party.

We nic bluffed everyone into thinking they would get a say.. bit they don't, she treats us public like Westminster treats her.


It's no oor fault har...err, nicola.

[GoldHeart]

I agree with you on that.

Regardless of where people stand on this issue, it should be up to Scotland to decide what laws that they want to pass through.

I know what you're saying, but the way things are going... i didn't have high hopes for Scotland to make the right decision in the first place. Sturgeon has well and truly lost the plot. She's pushing through these bills without a care for morals or ramifications.

I can't believe for the first time i'm actually on Sunak's side , we all know it's only a matter of time before this tries to get pushed in England . So surely it's best to assess the consequences of it before things go too far ??. I actually agree with him ..... and i hope he sticks to his guns .