Oliver_W: why do you consider being trans. a mental disorder?

[Redway]

Yup, I’m talking to you, Ollie. Get yourself in here pronto. Let’s have a bank-holiday Monday debate.

[Oliver_W]

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

[Crimson Dynamo]

mental disorder exacerbated by social media and algorithms and in the case of the USA greedy medical practitioners who can see an easy buck from deluded and misinformed parents :sad:

[Oliver_W]

mental disorder exacerbated by social media and algorithms and in the case of the USA greedy medical practitioners who can see an easy buck from deluded and misinformed parents :sad:

Gonna use this to add there's an element of social contagion to it too.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Gonna use this to add there's an element of social contagion to it too.

as witness the regionality of it in the USA

[user104658]

I think if you strip it right back, at its most simple level actual transgenderism is a form of body dysmorphia.

The gender stuff that doesn't include a desire to physically transition is something different and I would say largely social. Not a "mental illness" in any more meaningful a way than, for example, any religion and frankly there'd be far fewer problems if it was simply considered a belief system in the same way as a religion.

There is of course always the risk that the social aspects can develop into full dysmorphia especially if the individual already has underlying mental health issues like depression, anxiety, trauma or general identity issues.

[Zizu]

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?


Interestingly I work with two lovely ladies , both charming and intelligent… both are convinced they are too far and are constantly dieting despite being painfully , painfully thin .

I don’t know where to look when they refuse a piece of cake from someone and say “ no , no I have to be so careful…I need to lose a bit ..”


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[Zizu]

Slight tangent so apologies…

So all these ( many thousands) of girls / young women who are identifying as male and want to be seen as a boy .. changing their name etc …. would they have gone under the lesbian banner before all this surfaced ??

If that’s the case in a few decades their may not be any lesbians … just trans men dating other trans men ??


Just thinking aloud .. I’m still struggling to get my head around all this ..


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[Liam-]

Slight tangent so apologies…

So all these ( many thousands) of girls / young women who are identifying as male and want to be seen as a boy .. changing their name etc …. would they have gone under the lesbian banner before all this surfaced ??

If that’s the case in a few decades their may not be any lesbians … just trans men dating other trans men ??


Just thinking aloud .. I’m still struggling to get my head around all this ..


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No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

[Beso]

Anyone wanting to cut bits of themselves need there head checked. Imagine someone wanting to cut both their arms off! Would you just accept their wishes, or would you think, "you are nuts mate, you need your head checked"

[Zizu]

No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere


Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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[Liam-]

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No

[user104658]

No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

Meanwhile in the real world, lots of young gay girls are going down the route of identifying as male, due to a combination of current social zeitgeist and complicated issues around patriarchal values and internalised misogyny.

Most of them grow out of it after a couple of years.

The bigger concern though is the lesbians being branded transphobic or bigots for not wanting to sleep with trans women.

[user104658]

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.

[Redway]

All I can say is that the “T” in LGBT has been very normalised since (and obviously including) 2018 especially so you have to mind how you talk about these things with other people (not just in the office). A lot of black people drop subtly homophobic remarks in the workplace and think it’s okay because “black people are naturally more homophobic than whites” and use religion to justify it. I actually don’t mind the bit about defending your religious beliefs when questioned but you can’t just freely talk like you’re in Ogbomosho, Port Harcourt, Accra, Memphis or Montego Bay when you’re working in an environment where by-and-large LGBT stuff has never been more accepted or normalised (and probably rightly so to an extent). There’s so much I could say about the complex issue of many black people expecting to get a free pass for being more inherently homophobic as someone who’s been affiliated with and exposed to all sides of the cultural coin of life over the years but what I will say is that a lot of black LGBT people carry with them a lot of internalised homophobia and whatnot because they’re just used to being in an environment where they’re not accepted whatsoever by at least 80% of other people most ethnically similar to them. If you talk out of line on the job and offend people on the job you’re likely to be sacked and it’s not a case of “oh, it’s because I’m black, innit?” No. It’s a case of you not being able to keep your mouth shut and respecting what’s contextually appropriate. You can talk how you want about sexual minorities at home or in the church but not in open spaces.

[Redway]

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?

Not really.

[Zizu]

Not really.


I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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[user104658]

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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People identifying as trans goes back millenia. "Nu" gender ideology is less than 10 years old and only hit the mainstream within the last three to five years.

[Zizu]

People identifying as trans goes back millenia. "Nu" gender ideology is less than 10 years old and only hit the mainstream within the last three to five years.


So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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[Liam-]

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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No

[user104658]

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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No gender and sexuality are separate things. For example a lot of trans-male young girls are actually straight (biologically) or gay (if you think of them as boys).

I.e. They are biologically female, they identify as boys, but they're also attracted to boys.

It can get complicated I suppose.

Especially when you have two biologically male transwomen in a relationship with each other, identifying as lesbians. Which happens more often than you'd think.

[Redway]

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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People identifying as ‘cross-gender’ has probably existed since the beginning of time but certainly since the ’50s, and the development of conceptual pansexuality probably wasn’t far ahead of it (if at all). When I talk about 2018– I’m talking in terms of the more recent developments (all this non-binary/pronoun-accentuation palaver, which I think is by-and-large nonsense).

[Niamh.]

People identifying as ‘cross-gender’ has probably existed since the beginning of time but certainly since the ’50s, and the development of conceptual pansexuality probably wasn’t far ahead of it (if at all). When I talk about 2018– I’m talking in terms of the more recent developments (all this non-binary/pronoun-accentuation palaver, which I think is by-and-large nonsense).

I think it all became different when "gender" took on a life of it's own and now people are trying to push for it to mean more/be more important than sex. Imo gender was always just the "polite" word for sex but they were the same thing. Gender roles are an expression of or expectation of how you should express yourself because of your sex, back in the 80's/90's we were trying to to get rid of those boxes, I find all of this stuff really regressive actually

Sexism = the women should do the dishes.

Feminism = men or women can do the dishes.

Gender ideology = whoever is doing the dishes is a woman.

[Oliver_W]

A lot of black people drop subtly homophobic remarks in the workplace and think it’s okay because “black people are naturally more homophobic than whites” and use religion to justify it.
...
There’s so much I could say about the complex issue of many black people expecting to get a free pass for being more inherently homophobic as someone who’s been affiliated with and exposed to all sides of the cultural coin of life over the years but what I will say is that a lot of black LGBT people carry with them a lot of internalised homophobia and whatnot because they’re just used to being in an environment where they’re not accepted whatsoever by at least 80% of other people most ethnically similar to them.

It's frankly a bit bigoted to expect or accept lower expectations from people based on the amount of pigment in their skin. If someone's homophobic, I generally see them as a jerk, regardless of skin colour.

[Redway]

It's frankly a bit bigoted to expect or accept lower expectations from people based on the amount of pigment in their skin. If someone's homophobic, I generally see them as a jerk, regardless of skin colour.

There’s an awful lot of cultural nuance that has to be appreciated but I see where you’re coming from. I don’t mind people being disapproving of homosexuality (but not the people themselves) because of religious beliefs (which are often culturally syncretised, whether that’s readily admitted or not) but undisguised homophobia that knows no restraint (whether it rests on the hypocritical premise of religion when it’s apparently okay for them to commit every sin under the sun Monday - Saturday themselves) just needs checking and shutting down. Nigeria (to use an example) is hands-down one of the coolest, most culturally and spiritually blessed countries in the world but also one of the most notoriously homophobic. Visiting a mama-Nkechi buka to eat jollof rice, suya, nkwobi and drink Nigerian Fanta is a vibe but when LGBT people go to places like that to dine it does feel a bit jarring. The people cooking and serving your food probably don’t like you at all. If it’s obvious you’re gay they’re only tolerating your presence for the money.

[user104658]

It's frankly a bit bigoted to expect or accept lower expectations from people based on the amount of pigment in their skin. If someone's homophobic, I generally see them as a jerk, regardless of skin colour.

There's been a somewhat funny catch-22 of bigotry at my daughter's school recently (everyone involved is 13 - 14)... a girl has moved to the school who has come from Nigeria. Small town Scotland so really not much racial diversity, but no real racism issues except with one kid... who was being openly racist... but is also openly (and clearly) gay... and the girl (being heavily Christian and from Nigeria) is openly homophobic :joker:.

I swear, the DRAMA of it all, and the school tying themselves in knots because they have a zero-tolerance policy for both but I don't think have ever encountered a situation where it's Racism vs Homophobia :joker:. It all got quite vicious over Snapchat. Better than EastEnders tbh.

[Redway]

But the point is, Ollie, homophobia is a learned and handed-down part of black cultures worldwide, which is why black people are far more likely than white people and even British/eastern/south-eastern Asians (the undiluted Indian sub-continent can be pretty homophobic) to a certain extent to be very grossed-out by and against L.G.B.T. stuff (especially when it’s men or transgender people involved). A lot of white people just accept that it kind of comes with the cultural territory (and it’s certainly not all or even the vastest majority of black people but it’s a disproportionate amount of we’re being honest) but I know what you mean about it not being on. If you’re cheating on your wife every other day but still have the cheek and the audacity to use the Bible to excuse being a flagrant homophobe you’re a class-A tool. There’s nothing in the Bible that puts homosexuality on a special taboo-pedestal when it comes to what’s considered sin. If you’re a homophobe (or an internalised homophobe), just say that outright and own it if it’s bigotry you want to do.

[Redway]

There's been a somewhat funny catch-22 of bigotry at my daughter's school recently (everyone involved is 13 - 14)... a girl has moved to the school who has come from Nigeria. Small town Scotland so really not much racial diversity, but no real racism issues except with one kid... who was being openly racist... but is also openly (and clearly) gay... and the girl (being heavily Christian and from Nigeria) is openly homophobic :joker:.

I swear, the DRAMA of it all, and the school tying themselves in knots because they have a zero-tolerance policy for both but I don't think have ever encountered a situation where it's Racism vs Homophobia :joker:. It all got quite vicious over Snapchat. Better than EastEnders tbh.

Typical Nigerians do need to learn to keep their mouths shout when it comes to L.G.B.T. prejudice. Some of these people now are not even up to 2 weeks in the U.K. and roll up at Tesco expecting to be able to pay in Naira notes but somehow have enough cultural savviness to know when to pull the race-card, while still expecting it to be okay to be as overtly homophobic as they come. Nigerians are some of my favourite people in the world but the hypocrisy can be a lot. Sometimes black people are their own worst enemy. Doing the work in the community to at least suppress certain beliefs in mixed company and recognise that active discrimination of all kinds isn’t on is more important and beneficial long-term than pointing out every supposed micro-aggression in the world that white people are supposedly guilty of just by breathing.

Edit: didn’t mean that thumbs-down smiley. It just came out of nowhere.

[Beso]

No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.




Teens identifying as the opposite sex at school are just kids enjoying the attention they wouldnt have otherwise.

[user104658]

To be fair, i think there's plenty of inherited/cultural homophobia in certain white demographics too ... especially when you think of Bible Belt USA for example. The common denominator seems to be religiosity when it comes right down to it. The black communities who openly have trouble with homophobia are often also quite strongly Christian.

[Redway]

To be fair, i think there's plenty of inherited/cultural homophobia in certain white demographics too ... especially when you think of Bible Belt USA for example. The common denominator seems to be religiosity when it comes right down to it. The black communities who openly have trouble with homophobia are often also quite strongly Christian.

True. The Bible Belt in the U.S. is brutal, too. But I think one difference you’ll notice is that white L.G.B. (let’s just leave the T out for now) people from the Deep South still have a certain leeway/freedom to be open about their sexuality because being white is a certain protective factor when it comes to being more broadly accepted. Black L.G.B. people open up about it at their own risk, wherever they are. The funny thing is black people are estimated to have slightly more L.G.B. (again, let’s just allow the T-factor for now) people than whites do but they’re more likely to keep quiet about it because there’s nowhere for them to run, unlike white Bible Belt-descendants out of South Carolina or Georgia if they’re not straight. That’s why so many black men especially are on the down-low.

[user104658]

Teens identifying as the opposite sex at school are just kids enjoying the attention they wouldnt have otherwise.

I think that's 90% true and I think the easy litmus test is what happens when the novelty/attention dies down. There were several "trans boys" when she started high school at 11. Now at 14, all but one (possibly 2) of them have reverted to being girls (usually a stepping process: They were boys, then non-binary, then gender fluid, then back to being "cis girls").

There are a couple who seem to have settled into living as boys and that tends to be how people see them at this point.

It does tend to make me think that there's more than one thing going on and it's all lumped under the same bracket, it all "looks" the same but it isn't.

I find that to be even more so the case in adult trans women, as it goes. Some of it harmless, some of it not, unfortunately all banded under the same header so a criticism of one looks like a criticism of all.

[Redway]

I think that's 90% true and I think the easy litmus test is what happens when the novelty/attention dies down. There were several "trans boys" when she started high school at 11. Now at 14, all but one (possibly 2) of them have reverted to being girls (usually a stepping process: They were boys, then non-binary, then gender fluid, then back to being "cis girls").

There are a couple who seem to have settled into living as boys and that tends to be how people see them at this point.

It does tend to make me think that there's more than one thing going on and it's all lumped under the same bracket, it all "looks" the same but it isn't.

I find that to be even more so the case in adult trans women, as it goes. Some of it harmless, some of it not, unfortunately all banded under the same header so a criticism of one looks like a criticism of all.

Like Niamh said (I forgot to quote her before but she made some really good points) it is quite reverse-sexist low-key for tomboyish girls to identify as the opposite sex because of internalised patriarchy/misogyny (as you pointed out). Gender is in many ways a social construct so … yeah. Just own your ‘tomboyishness’ (like Sam. off iCarly in the first handful of seasons). None of that makes you inherently a butch lesbian or non-cis. It just makes you you.

[Redway]

I think it all became different when "gender" took on a life of it's own and now people are trying to push for it to mean more/be more important than sex. Imo gender was always just the "polite" word for sex but they were the same thing. Gender roles are an expression of or expectation of how you should express yourself because of your sex, back in the 80's/90's we were trying to to get rid of those boxes, I find all of this stuff really regressive actually

Sexism = the women should do the dishes.

Feminism = men or women can do the dishes.

Gender ideology = whoever is doing the dishes is a woman.

Exactly, Niamh. Any ‘fluidity’ thereof (which is just human nature and gender stereotypes are somewhat contradictory when you look at them through a historical lens - a prime example being pink being seen as a feminine colour since the 1930s/’40s, whereas before that it was considered quite masculine and females were the ones who were blue) is still ultimately based on the two biological sexes (which is the only certainty in all of it). You’re either biologically one or the other (unless you’re one of those genuinely rare intersexual people who were obviously born that way) but beyond that it’s a case of stereotypes being peddled as having anything other than maybe the slightest biological backing to them and that’s where it just all goes wrong. In 2023 we should be beyond all that.

[Redway]

To be fair, i think there's plenty of inherited/cultural homophobia in certain white demographics too ... especially when you think of Bible Belt USA for example. The common denominator seems to be religiosity when it comes right down to it. The black communities who openly have trouble with homophobia are often also quite strongly Christian.

But then again there’s Russia, which happens not to be a particularly religious country (as far as I know) but of their own accord incredibly homophobic.

[user104658]

Like Niamh said (I forgot to quote her before but she made some really good points) it is quite reverse-sexist low-key for tomboyish girls to identify as the opposite sex because of internalised patriarchy/misogyny (as you pointed out). Gender is in many ways a social construct so … yeah. Just own your ‘tomboyishness’ (like Sam. off iCarly in the first handful of seasons). None of that makes you inherently a butch lesbian or non-cis. It just makes you you.

It is interesting and I think it affects males too but not to the same extent, and I think you can see that in gender expression in cis gay people over the years too. "Butch" gay women have ALWAYS been viewed as "manly" in the mainstream, whereas "less manly" gay men, whilst seen in ways as effeminate, has always been described differently, as "camp gay men" but nonetheless still distinctly a category of men, not "womanly". The latter being how it should be, of course, as you pointed out - having personality traits that are "traditionally" one gender or the other doesn't and shouldn't have to mean anything at all.

I swear I remember being quite confused as a younger kid and wondering if I "wasn't a real boy" simply because all the other boys liked football and I didn't. Which in hindsight as an adult is ridiculous - even once you get to the teens and other people start finally admitting they're not that fussed for sports either.

Again I do think there's different things going on for different people but I wonder WHAT IF it was 2023 and young-me had expressed that to my parents and they had, wanting to be understanding and affirming, said "Well yes actually maybe you are a girl!" instead of "lol not all boys like football, some of your friends love it as much as they say, some of them are just trying to fit in."

[user104658]

But then again there’s Russia, which happens not to be a particularly religious country (as far as I know) but of their own accord incredibly homophobic.

From what I know of Russia they have very clear ideas about "masculinity" in general, it seems to be a different thing sort of unique to Russia (and a lot of Eastern Europe too I suppose, anywhere Russian-influenced historically)

[Redway]

It is interesting and I think it affects males too but not to the same extent, and I think you can see that in gender expression in cis gay people over the years too. "Butch" gay women have ALWAYS been viewed as "manly" in the mainstream, whereas "less manly" gay men, whilst seen in ways as effeminate, has always been described differently, as "camp gay men" but nonetheless still distinctly a category of men, not "womanly". The latter being how it should be, of course, as you pointed out - having personality traits that are "traditionally" one gender or the other doesn't and shouldn't have to mean anything at all.

I swear I remember being quite confused as a younger kid and wondering if I "wasn't a real boy" simply because all the other boys liked football and I didn't. Which in hindsight as an adult is ridiculous - even once you get to the teens and other people start finally admitting they're not that fussed for sports either.

Again I do think there's different things going on for different people but I wonder WHAT IF it was 2023 and young-me had expressed that to my parents and they had, wanting to be understanding and affirming, said "Well yes actually maybe you are a girl!" instead of "lol not all boys like football, some of your friends love it as much as they say, some of them are just trying to fit in."

Football obsession is for boys, not men. Adults should have more important things to worry and think about than Ronaldo’s next goal. I’ve never been a big football fan but I always liked boxing/wrestling, skateboarding, computer games (I never bothered with xBox/PlayStation, nor have I ever owned one, but I’d play those types of games - naturally besides FIFA, which I obviously sucked at - at mates’/cousins’ houses and I still do from time to time), … ya. (When I wasn’t reading.) Boxing and wrestling is arguably more masculine (and certainly more interesting) than watching over-paid 29-year-olds trying to kick one silly ball into a goal-post. I understand having a moderate lifelong interest in football (especially considering Liverpool’s actually one of my home-towns) but what I don’t get is the crazy obsession that so many men used to have in it before the pandemic (I think it’s calmed down a bit). Eventually even footballers have to grow up and find a proper career where they’ll be paid much more averagely.

[Oliver_W]

But the point is, Ollie, homophobia is a learned and handed-down part of black cultures worldwide,

It wasn't much different with white until fairly recently. "It's always been that way" isn't an excuse.

[Redway]

There’s this Nigerian media clown called Bobrisky (he’s been popular since at least 2017, maybe before) who’s a camp “cross-dresser” but the funny thing is he openly opposes gay rights. I don’t know who he thinks he’s kidding but at least he’s not as bad as Obialor James Brown (a mini wannabe version with H.I.V. who’s known for giving himself hysterical, badly-acted seizures over the littlest world happening, including the Queen - who he won’t have ever even met - passing away). Everything about that James Brown idiot (besides one interview where he actually came across as quite measured and calm) repulses me.

[Redway]

https://youtu.be/vWtG7gjaQCc

https://youtu.be/VHHkCsbdS00

Here the idiot is. He’s half Yoruba, half Igbo (two major Nigerian ethnic groups). I couldn’t tell you which of his parents died from H.I.V. but whoever did passed it onto him and he’s made a name for himself partly on the basis of that. He’s just a disgrace.

[Beso]

There's been a somewhat funny catch-22 of bigotry at my daughter's school recently (everyone involved is 13 - 14)... a girl has moved to the school who has come from Nigeria. Small town Scotland so really not much racial diversity, but no real racism issues except with one kid... who was being openly racist... but is also openly (and clearly) gay... and the girl (being heavily Christian and from Nigeria) is openly homophobic :joker:.

I swear, the DRAMA of it all, and the school tying themselves in knots because they have a zero-tolerance policy for both but I don't think have ever encountered a situation where it's Racism vs Homophobia :joker:. It all got quite vicious over Snapchat. Better than EastEnders tbh.

A straight white lad would have been suspended immediately.

[Oliver_W]

There’s this Nigerian media clown called Bobrisky (he’s been popular since at least 2017, maybe before) who’s a camp “cross-dresser” but the funny thing is he openly opposes gay rights. I don’t know who he thinks he’s kidding

Meh. A lot of drag queens are straight. All of the New York Dolls were straight, and at least some were actively homophobic.

[Zizu]

….

[Redway]

….

He’s answered that question already, has he not?

[Crimson Dynamo]

going by the nasty threatening actions of the trans mob

its very much a mental disorder rooted in gay male aggression against women

[Redway]

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

What would you do if one of your kids outed themselves as trans. to you? Part of me dreads to think, I can’t lie. I know the likes of Soldier Boy wouldn’t be too happy about it but no-one’s made quite as much of a name for being an educated anti-trans. person as you.

[Redway]

And why am I only just realising that Soulja Boy (who actually came out with some decent beats circa 2006/2007) is a totally cool side-name for “Soldier Boy”?

Ey? How about that, T.S.?

[user104658]

And why am I only just realising that Soulja Boy (who actually came out with some decent beats circa 2006/2007) is a totally cool side-name for “Soldier Boy”?

Ey? How about that, T.S.?

ribbpLMgtO0

Doesn't have the same emotional impact as Martika, I can't lie. :bawling: We never win, but the battle wages on...

Miss you, little trooper. *sniffle*

[Oliver_W]

What would you do if one of your kids outed themselves as trans. to you? Part of me dreads to think, I can’t lie. I know the likes of Soldier Boy wouldn’t be too happy about it but no-one’s made quite as much of a name for being an educated anti-trans. person as you.

Well I've never claimed to be particularly educated on the subject :joker:

To answer your question, I'd be far from thrilled, just like if my hypothetic children had any other form of dysmorphia or mental disorders. I wouldn’t disown them or anything over it.

Due to the way my siblings and I were brought up -a combination of self-acceptance and self-criticism, ultimately amounting to self awareness- and little to no unsupervised internet access before sixteen, none of us would "be" trans if it didn't come from a place of body dysmorphia, we wouldn't fall for social contagian or anything like that.

But in the same way the world -and internet!- was a different place now to what it was when we (my siblings and I) were.young teens, it may well be different again when my future children are at that age.
So while I like to think I'd replicate (within reason and context) the same techniques when I have kids, it might not necessarily be possible.
But raising kids is (often) a two person thing, and while I'm currently single who knows what sitch I'll be when I do have kids.

[Redway]

Well I've never claimed to be particularly educated on the subject :joker:

To answer your question, I'd be far from thrilled, just like if my hypothetic children had any other form of dysmorphia or mental disorders. I wouldn’t disown them or anything over it.

Due to the way my siblings and I were brought up -a combination of self-acceptance and self-criticism, ultimately amounting to self awareness- and little to no unsupervised internet access before sixteen, none of us would "be" trans if it didn't come from a place of body dysmorphia, we wouldn't fall for social contagian or anything like that.

But in the same way the world -and internet!- was a different place now to what it was when we (my siblings and I) were.young teens, it may well be different again when my future children are at that age.
So while I like to think I'd replicate (within reason and context) the same techniques when I have kids, it might not necessarily be possible.
But raising kids is (often) a two person thing, and while I'm currently single who knows what sitch I'll be when I do have kids.

I meant in general. So I kind of have to take you more seriously than some next person who just spouts predictable transphobia. I figured there had to be a reason behind you being so disapproving of the trans. agenda.

[Oliver_W]

I meant in general. So I kind of have to take you more seriously than some next person who just spouts predictable transphobia. I figured there had to be a reason behind you being so disapproving of the trans. agenda.

Gotcha.

Well I'd be equally disapproving if anorexia was being portrayed as being "stunning amd brave" and if people were being prescribed emerics to achieve their "true bodies."

There was a time when self-harm was ... more than normallsed and almost encouraged by Tumblr groups, where pictures and stories were exchanged etc. I hated that too.

But taking part in either of those things doesn't contradict anyone else's rights, in the way that transwomen in women's spaces overrights women's rights to woman-only spaces.

[user104658]

Gotcha.

Well I'd be equally disapproving if anorexia was being portrayed as being "stunning amd brave" and if people were being prescribed emerics to achieve their "true bodies."

There was a time when self-harm was ... more than normallsed and almost encouraged by Tumblr groups, where pictures and stories were exchanged etc. I hated that too.

But taking part in either of those things doesn't contradict anyone else's rights, in the way that transwomen in women's spaces overrights women's rights to woman-only spaces.

"Pro-ana" (a huge "positive" anorexia movement from maybe 10-15 years ago) is making a comeback at the moment, from what I've heard...

[Beso]

"Pro-ana" (a huge "positive" anorexia movement from maybe 10-15 years ago) is making a comeback at the moment, from what I've heard...

In america?

[user104658]

In america?

I'm sure it probably originated in the US but these things mean very little these days - it was all across social media, forums, things like Tumblr etc. back in those days so "international" really (or the English-speaking world, anyway). I vaguely recall that Australia for example had quite a big problem with a surge in eating disorders.

[Beso]

I'm sure it probably originated in the US but these things mean very little these days - it was all across social media, forums, things like Tumblr etc. back in those days so "international" really (or the English-speaking world, anyway). I vaguely recall that Australia for example had quite a big problem with a surge in eating disorders.



It didnt do much good in the US, 2nd time lucky though.

[user104658]

It didnt do much good in the US, 2nd time lucky though.

Not really amusing Parmy - this is something that mostly affects young teenage girls, and a lot of them end up with permanent health consequences (or dead).

Also two ends of the same stick; extreme over-eating and extreme under-eating are both eating disorders.

[Redway]

Gotcha.

Well I'd be equally disapproving if anorexia was being portrayed as being "stunning amd brave" and if people were being prescribed emerics to achieve their "true bodies."

There was a time when self-harm was ... more than normallsed and almost encouraged by Tumblr groups, where pictures and stories were exchanged etc. I hated that too.

But taking part in either of those things doesn't contradict anyone else's rights, in the way that transwomen in women's spaces overrights women's rights to woman-only spaces.

I feel the exact same way about this over-normalisation of borderline personality disorder. Some days I feel somewhat borderline (which in young females is often represented by self-harm) but there’s a difference between shifting in and out of the shadow parts of your personality (whether you normally idolise them or not) and being a little quietly embittered about certain things that happened in the past (obviously I’m inserting myself in this particular example) and having a true borderline personality disorder. I have a very stable sense of core identity but I wear different social hats and feel like I haven’t made the fullest peace with certain elements of my past and that’s that, that’s me (a part of me). It doesn’t mean I’m going to now run onto Tumblr and say that I dissociate traumatically on the basis of any perceived “threat of abandonment” (which is a real thing for people who actually have the disorder) with all the self-invented scars to prove it. But then I’m the sort of person who has a very measured approach to these things and actually knows what they’re talking about so I know where to draw the line between what could possibly just be me and what’s a disorder. I’ve had my fair share of internal baggage over the years but luckily borderline personality disorder isn’t one of them. And even if it was I wouldn’t have been hash-tagging it in my teens. I’d keep it close to my chest and get help on my own terms in private. Random people can’t do nothing for you except run around gossiping about you so anyone being so attention-seeking about these things (I’m not talking about using their experiences for others’ awareness or inspiration) is a big L. Everybody out there is not your friend who cares about your health and welfare. They’re just looking for gossip. And it’s fine if you want to be the centre of attention and don’t mind ending up on the other side of town because of Tumblr scars but what we’re not going to do out here is normalise eating disorders and self-harm to the extent that it’s like encouraging them. No-no-no. We ain’t doing that as half-sane (wo)mandem in 2023.

The over-normalisation of (to use two completely different examples now) ‘autism’ (however one would define that because it means different things to different people as a concept; they could be talking about Elon Musk, an awkward empath with weird interests and probable asexuality or a less savant version of Rainman who hand-flaps) and A.D.H.D. is another thing I’ve noticed in the past couple of years that I’m not too happy about. I often think of autism and ADHD as being opposites in a way and while it’s certainly possible to have a paradoxical bland of both, this over-identification of it by TikTok-dem should stop. Not every quirk needs to be pathologised.

[Mystic Mock]

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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I think it's more of a recent trend for the Media to focus on the Trans community so much.

The Trans community has been out there in the world since I've been growing up anyway, and I'm going to guess that they were around before I was born.

[Mystic Mock]

It is interesting and I think it affects males too but not to the same extent, and I think you can see that in gender expression in cis gay people over the years too. "Butch" gay women have ALWAYS been viewed as "manly" in the mainstream, whereas "less manly" gay men, whilst seen in ways as effeminate, has always been described differently, as "camp gay men" but nonetheless still distinctly a category of men, not "womanly". The latter being how it should be, of course, as you pointed out - having personality traits that are "traditionally" one gender or the other doesn't and shouldn't have to mean anything at all.

I swear I remember being quite confused as a younger kid and wondering if I "wasn't a real boy" simply because all the other boys liked football and I didn't. Which in hindsight as an adult is ridiculous - even once you get to the teens and other people start finally admitting they're not that fussed for sports either.

Again I do think there's different things going on for different people but I wonder WHAT IF it was 2023 and young-me had expressed that to my parents and they had, wanting to be understanding and affirming, said "Well yes actually maybe you are a girl!" instead of "lol not all boys like football, some of your friends love it as much as they say, some of them are just trying to fit in."

To go off topic for a minute.

Have you checked out other Sports? Because you might just not like Football rather than not like Sports entirely.

[Mystic Mock]

Football obsession is for boys, not men. Adults should have more important things to worry and think about than Ronaldo’s next goal. I’ve never been a big football fan but I always liked boxing/wrestling, skateboarding, computer games (I never bothered with xBox/PlayStation, nor have I ever owned one, but I’d play those types of games - naturally besides FIFA, which I obviously sucked at - at mates’/cousins’ houses and I still do from time to time), … ya. (When I wasn’t reading.) Boxing and wrestling is arguably more masculine (and certainly more interesting) than watching over-paid 29-year-olds trying to kick one silly ball into a goal-post. I understand having a moderate lifelong interest in football (especially considering Liverpool’s actually one of my home-towns) but what I don’t get is the crazy obsession that so many men used to have in it before the pandemic (I think it’s calmed down a bit). Eventually even footballers have to grow up and find a proper career where they’ll be paid much more averagely.

Speaking for myself I love competitions, hence my love for Football and other Sports, and even down to Reality TV Shows like BB.

Plus nowadays Football is one of only a few things from the West that I can watch without feeling like I've took a visit to Guantanamo Bay.

[Beso]

Not really amusing Parmy - this is something that mostly affects young teenage girls, and a lot of them end up with permanent health consequences (or dead).

Also two ends of the same stick; extreme over-eating and extreme under-eating are both eating disorders.

In hindsight you are probably correct. Sorry.

[bots]

Mental disorder is a very emotive term to use. Not everyone thinks the same way, that's what makes us individual and not robots

[Oliver_W]

Mental disorder is a very emotive term to use. Not everyone thinks the same way, that's what makes us individual and not robots

It's not emotive, it's scientific. If people choose to find it offensive, it's up to them whether or not they want to stigmatise mental health issues.

[bots]

It's not emotive, it's scientific. If people choose to find it offensive, it's up to them whether or not they want to stigmatise mental health issues.

with respect that's nonsense, it's in no way scientific at all

As an example, after i had my stroke, i had brain scans performed. 5 neurologists examined the scans, and every single one of them came back with a different interpretation.

When I spoke to them about this, they said no-one has a perfect brain, there is always something to comment on and they rarely agree on the effect it may have unless it is a catastrophic type of injury

[Mystic Mock]

Mental disorder is a very emotive term to use. Not everyone thinks the same way, that's what makes us individual and not robots

We've got a free thinker.

That's not very 2023 of you.:nono::laugh:

Seriously though I agree with your point.

[GoldHeart]

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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Maybe or maybe even emo or goth , I find it suspicious that there's been such a high rise in all this Gender stuff. But that's social media for you .

[Redway]

Speaking for myself I love competitions, hence my love for Football and other Sports, and even down to Reality TV Shows like BB.

Plus nowadays Football is one of only a few things from the West that I can watch without feeling like I've took a visit to Guantanamo Bay.

Yeah, I hear that. When I say “obsessed” I’m talking about the silly man-boys out there who think that a team they don’t even support that’s playing is a good reason for the equivalent of a religious holiday and just fixate on it like there’s no 23.59. So it’s sad when boys feel like they have to prove their masculine worth by pretending/forcing themselves to like football more than they actually might. There are far more truly masculine sports out there than football (boxing and wrestling being two). I just prefer people to be of substance rather than sports-obsessives. Only boxers and athletes (who genuinely go through a lot just to qualify) are allowed to take it that seriously.

[Redway]

Meh. A lot of drag queens are straight. All of the New York Dolls were straight, and at least some were actively homophobic.

That’s a good point. Still not sure about Bobrisky but “drag” isn’t something what really defines someone. Some people just like to dress up flamboyantly.

[Livia]

Dress up any way you want, but if you have a penis, you're a man.

[Zizu]

Dress up any way you want, but if you have a penis, you're a man.


What about the guys who have their meat and two veg … removed though …


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[Livia]

What about the guys who have their meat and two veg … removed though …


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I'd say they were trans women.

[Oliver_W]

What about the guys who have their meat and two veg … removed though …


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They're about as much of a woman as any other man who lost genitals through accident or illness.

[user104658]

Have you checked out other Sports? Because you might just not like Football rather than not like Sports entirely.

I worked in a bookmakers for 10 years and managed it for 4 so I've seen a couple of rounds of golf yes :joker:.

I don't actually dislike sport at all, I like a good boxing match, I enjoy the big Tennis events, I can watch Snooker/Darts, I even appreciate a decent football game. Golf and rugby bore me to tears as it goes. So I can appreciate that football has some entertainment value, at very least. I also played basketball at school/uni although professional basketball is a boring watch IMO.

So yes it's not a dislike of sport - it's just never being to understand the obsession and thinking it's the best think in the world. Little boys who "eat sleep and breathe football". I just don't get it :shrug:. It's OK but that's it.

[Livia]

I agree. Until they can alter their Y chromosome... They're still men.

[user104658]

I agree. Until they can alter their Y chromosome... They're still men.

I'm a little more charitable in that I don't think anyone necessarily needs to be termed a "man" or "woman" if they don't want, they're social descriptors at the end of the day. So I'm willing to say transwomen, and that they're not men... however, they will always be male, and can never be female.

[Zizu]

Interesting..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230601/9b5ce22003f2d82e61d91fb5d12d0b90.jpg


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[Redway]

I worked in a bookmakers for 10 years and managed it for 4 so I've seen a couple of rounds of golf yes :joker:.

I don't actually dislike sport at all, I like a good boxing match, I enjoy the big Tennis events, I can watch Snooker/Darts, I even appreciate a decent football game. Golf and rugby bore me to tears as it goes. So I can appreciate that football has some entertainment value, at very least. I also played basketball at school/uni although professional basketball is a boring watch IMO.

So yes it's not a dislike of sport - it's just never being to understand the obsession and thinking it's the best think in the world. Little boys who "eat sleep and breathe football". I just don't get it :shrug:. It's OK but that's it.

I feel you and I'm pretty-much the same. John. 'Bradshaw' Layfield was my two-second wrestling icon (I even used to annoy someone I used to play wrestling games on their PlayStation with by always bringing up and exaggerating his prowess) and I have a cousin who's a retired athlete (and as it goes I am actually related, some somewhat closely and others more distantly to a few basketball and football-playing figures) and that's the extent of the obsession I've ever had for sports. I don't particularly like football but accept that it's a technically decent game that serves some sort of purpose (and there was a time where I had to do a bit of research on it and make something good of it). But compared to boxing and wrestling it's a joke. Like it, don't like it but don't get too hung up on it. It must be one of the most boring things in the world to get obsessed over.

And it ain't just little boys. I get the red-Scouse patriotism for it to a certain extent (you have to remember that I lived in Liverpool for years and grew up there) but it's still annoying watching grown men from all over the nation throwing their toys out of the pram when their team doesn't win the final goal. Who's really arsed?

[Mystic Mock]

Yeah, I hear that. When I say “obsessed” I’m talking about the silly man-boys out there who think that a team they don’t even support that’s playing is a good reason for the equivalent of a religious holiday and just fixate on it like there’s no 23.59. So it’s sad when boys feel like they have to prove their masculine worth by pretending/forcing themselves to like football more than they actually might. There are far more truly masculine sports out there than football (boxing and wrestling being two). I just prefer people to be of substance rather than sports-obsessives. Only boxers and athletes (who genuinely go through a lot just to qualify) are allowed to take it that seriously.

Oh liking Football to try and appear to be "masculine" is always a sad situation that I think society needs to not pile pressure on kids to like, and let kids naturally get into the Sport.

Like to tell you the truth, if I never watched the game where Birmingham City hammered Villa 3-0 with the iconic Enckleman mistake, I probably never would've got into Football because it was something that naturally grabbed my attention towards Football, rather than forcing myself to like it to please society.

And I do agree with you that some people are too obsessed with Football, to the point where they have no real interests away from Football, and I say that as someone that can be quite addicted to Football, but I like to think that Football isn't my identity solely.

[Mystic Mock]

I worked in a bookmakers for 10 years and managed it for 4 so I've seen a couple of rounds of golf yes :joker:.

I don't actually dislike sport at all, I like a good boxing match, I enjoy the big Tennis events, I can watch Snooker/Darts, I even appreciate a decent football game. Golf and rugby bore me to tears as it goes. So I can appreciate that football has some entertainment value, at very least. I also played basketball at school/uni although professional basketball is a boring watch IMO.

So yes it's not a dislike of sport - it's just never being to understand the obsession and thinking it's the best think in the world. Little boys who "eat sleep and breathe football". I just don't get it :shrug:. It's OK but that's it.

Oh your post is more than fair, thanks for the reply.

I was gonna say to check out something like Tennis actually, because of how different it is to Football and Rugby.

I actually don't mind Golf, it probably helps that I do like Rory McIlroy.