[Redway]

Yup, I’m talking to you, Ollie. Get yourself in here pronto. Let’s have a bank-holiday Monday debate.

[Oliver_W]

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

[LeatherTrumpet]

mental disorder exacerbated by social media and algorithms and in the case of the USA greedy medical practitioners who can see an easy buck from deluded and misinformed parents

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

mental disorder exacerbated by social media and algorithms and in the case of the USA greedy medical practitioners who can see an easy buck from deluded and misinformed parents

Gonna use this to add there's an element of social contagion to it too.

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Gonna use this to add there's an element of social contagion to it too.

as witness the regionality of it in the USA

[Soldier Boy]

I think if you strip it right back, at its most simple level actual transgenderism is a form of body dysmorphia.

The gender stuff that doesn't include a desire to physically transition is something different and I would say largely social. Not a "mental illness" in any more meaningful a way than, for example, any religion and frankly there'd be far fewer problems if it was simply considered a belief system in the same way as a religion.

There is of course always the risk that the social aspects can develop into full dysmorphia especially if the individual already has underlying mental health issues like depression, anxiety, trauma or general identity issues.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Because it literally is?

A discordance between mind and body can hardly be called anything else.

I know I've used this comparison a zillion times already, but when there's someone whose brain is telling them they're fat despite all evidence, there's no controversy about acknowledging they have a mental disorder.

Why should it be different with gender?

Interestingly I work with two lovely ladies , both charming and intelligent… both are convinced they are too far and are constantly dieting despite being painfully , painfully thin .

I don’t know where to look when they refuse a piece of cake from someone and say “ no , no I have to be so careful…I need to lose a bit ..”


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[Zizu]

Slight tangent so apologies…

So all these ( many thousands) of girls / young women who are identifying as male and want to be seen as a boy .. changing their name etc …. would they have gone under the lesbian banner before all this surfaced ??

If that’s the case in a few decades their may not be any lesbians … just trans men dating other trans men ??


Just thinking aloud .. I’m still struggling to get my head around all this ..


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[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Slight tangent so apologies…

So all these ( many thousands) of girls / young women who are identifying as male and want to be seen as a boy .. changing their name etc …. would they have gone under the lesbian banner before all this surfaced ??

If that’s the case in a few decades their may not be any lesbians … just trans men dating other trans men ??


Just thinking aloud .. I’m still struggling to get my head around all this ..


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No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

[parmnion]

Anyone wanting to cut bits of themselves need there head checked. Imagine someone wanting to cut both their arms off! Would you just accept their wishes, or would you think, "you are nuts mate, you need your head checked"

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Liam-

No they wouldn’t have been referred to as lesbians, they’d still have been trans, lesbians aren’t going anywhere

Meanwhile in the real world, lots of young gay girls are going down the route of identifying as male, due to a combination of current social zeitgeist and complicated issues around patriarchal values and internalised misogyny.

Most of them grow out of it after a couple of years.

The bigger concern though is the lesbians being branded transphobic or bigots for not wanting to sleep with trans women.

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?


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No but the rates of teenage girls identifying as trans-male has increased exponentially over the last few years and is not being properly addressed in ways that actually consider the psychology and mental health of young females, because of the blind push for "gender affirming" in the medical community and schools.

Don't listen to Liam on this stuff Zizu, he's an unfortunate combination of ignorant and biased. I highly doubt he knows anything at all about what's going on with teenagers in schools over the last few years, other than what he's read online, from very select sources.

[Redway]

All I can say is that the “T” in LGBT has been very normalised since (and obviously including) 2018 especially so you have to mind how you talk about these things with other people (not just in the office). A lot of black people drop subtly homophobic remarks in the workplace and think it’s okay because “black people are naturally more homophobic than whites” and use religion to justify it. I actually don’t mind the bit about defending your religious beliefs when questioned but you can’t just freely talk like you’re in Ogbomosho, Port Harcourt, Accra, Memphis or Montego Bay when you’re working in an environment where by-and-large LGBT stuff has never been more accepted or normalised (and probably rightly so to an extent). There’s so much I could say about the complex issue of many black people expecting to get a free pass for being more inherently homophobic as someone who’s been affiliated with and exposed to all sides of the cultural coin of life over the years but what I will say is that a lot of black LGBT people carry with them a lot of internalised homophobia and whatnot because they’re just used to being in an environment where they’re not accepted whatsoever by at least 80% of other people most ethnically similar to them. If you talk out of line on the job and offend people on the job you’re likely to be sacked and it’s not a case of “oh, it’s because I’m black, innit?” No. It’s a case of you not being able to keep your mouth shut and respecting what’s contextually appropriate. You can talk how you want about sexual minorities at home or in the church but not in open spaces.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Zizu

Isn’t being trans a fairly recent thing ?

Not really.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Redway

Not really.

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Zizu

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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People identifying as trans goes back millenia. "Nu" gender ideology is less than 10 years old and only hit the mainstream within the last three to five years.

[Zizu]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

People identifying as trans goes back millenia. "Nu" gender ideology is less than 10 years old and only hit the mainstream within the last three to five years.

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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[Liam-]

Originally Posted by Zizu

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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No

[Soldier Boy]

Originally Posted by Zizu

So up until 10 years ago these trans men would have identified as lesbian ?


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No gender and sexuality are separate things. For example a lot of trans-male young girls are actually straight (biologically) or gay (if you think of them as boys).

I.e. They are biologically female, they identify as boys, but they're also attracted to boys.

It can get complicated I suppose.

Especially when you have two biologically male transwomen in a relationship with each other, identifying as lesbians. Which happens more often than you'd think.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Zizu

I’d regard 2018 as very recent I’m thinking back decades


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People identifying as ‘cross-gender’ has probably existed since the beginning of time but certainly since the ’50s, and the development of conceptual pansexuality probably wasn’t far ahead of it (if at all). When I talk about 2018– I’m talking in terms of the more recent developments (all this non-binary/pronoun-accentuation palaver, which I think is by-and-large nonsense).

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Redway

People identifying as ‘cross-gender’ has probably existed since the beginning of time but certainly since the ’50s, and the development of conceptual pansexuality probably wasn’t far ahead of it (if at all). When I talk about 2018– I’m talking in terms of the more recent developments (all this non-binary/pronoun-accentuation palaver, which I think is by-and-large nonsense).

I think it all became different when "gender" took on a life of it's own and now people are trying to push for it to mean more/be more important than sex. Imo gender was always just the "polite" word for sex but they were the same thing. Gender roles are an expression of or expectation of how you should express yourself because of your sex, back in the 80's/90's we were trying to to get rid of those boxes, I find all of this stuff really regressive actually

Sexism = the women should do the dishes.

Feminism = men or women can do the dishes.

Gender ideology = whoever is doing the dishes is a woman.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by Redway

A lot of black people drop subtly homophobic remarks in the workplace and think it’s okay because “black people are naturally more homophobic than whites” and use religion to justify it.
...
There’s so much I could say about the complex issue of many black people expecting to get a free pass for being more inherently homophobic as someone who’s been affiliated with and exposed to all sides of the cultural coin of life over the years but what I will say is that a lot of black LGBT people carry with them a lot of internalised homophobia and whatnot because they’re just used to being in an environment where they’re not accepted whatsoever by at least 80% of other people most ethnically similar to them.

It's frankly a bit bigoted to expect or accept lower expectations from people based on the amount of pigment in their skin. If someone's homophobic, I generally see them as a jerk, regardless of skin colour.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

It's frankly a bit bigoted to expect or accept lower expectations from people based on the amount of pigment in their skin. If someone's homophobic, I generally see them as a jerk, regardless of skin colour.

There’s an awful lot of cultural nuance that has to be appreciated but I see where you’re coming from. I don’t mind people being disapproving of homosexuality (but not the people themselves) because of religious beliefs (which are often culturally syncretised, whether that’s readily admitted or not) but undisguised homophobia that knows no restraint (whether it rests on the hypocritical premise of religion when it’s apparently okay for them to commit every sin under the sun Monday - Saturday themselves) just needs checking and shutting down. Nigeria (to use an example) is hands-down one of the coolest, most culturally and spiritually blessed countries in the world but also one of the most notoriously homophobic. Visiting a mama-Nkechi buka to eat jollof rice, suya, nkwobi and drink Nigerian Fanta is a vibe but when LGBT people go to places like that to dine it does feel a bit jarring. The people cooking and serving your food probably don’t like you at all. If it’s obvious you’re gay they’re only tolerating your presence for the money.