Boxer Imane Khelif Has XY Chromosomes And "Testicles"

[Mystic Mock]

i mean Martina Navratilova also might've got both chromosomes, how masculine she looks


should we strip her of her titles while we're at it? :think:

There's a difference between a woman that looks butch, to a woman that might be biologically male.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

Excellent point and YES ..

She/he brutalised the ultra feminine Chris Evert time after time !!!


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Maybe Martina was just the better player tbf.:laugh:

Just like how poor Raducanu has players that are better than her, unfortunately.

[Mystic Mock]

I don't think anyone is doing that. Talking about hormone levels ensuring a more level playing field isn't defining women by said hormones.

On the contrary, I've spent a lot of time on here advocating that women shouldn't be defined by their physical attributes. Many women on here disagree and are happy to be defined by their body parts and reproductive organs, which is sad to see as it feels quite reductive but each to their own.

Everyone gets defined by their physical attributes to some extent.

It's Human nature.

[Nicky91]

There's a difference between a woman that looks butch, to a woman that might be biologically male.:laugh:

Imane Khelif is biologically female

end of



muslims can't be trans, they just can't



my point was more that you just have women who have more muscle, masculine qualities


more examples: Williams sisters (Serena & Venus) as if they look any feminine

or Simona Halep, whom even underwent breast reduction surgery to enhance her performances on court



the only exception of a successful sportswoman in the tennis, Maria Sharapova i guess (but then again she used doping, and lets not go further into that)



Raducanu isn't that good of a player honestly, she's more an influencer sort of type :fan:



my current personal favourite Jessica Pegula, doesn't look too masculine for my liking, (she's quite HOT tbh, but that is my personal taste perhaps) her advantages are more coming from quite a good amount of wealth, which she cleverly invests into having her own hard court, clay court at her mansion in Florida + a lot of years in the doubles also made her the experienced player she is today, and she transitions that quite decently into her singles game, from lower ranked (below top 700 even) to the top 10 ranked she is today

+ passion for sports runs in the Pegula family, that also helps a lot

[Crimson Dynamo]

Imane Khelif is biologically female

end of


incorrect

[Nicky91]

incorrect

says you


and i say otherwise, that's the fun thing of a free world, where we all have different opinions

[Beso]

says you


and i say otherwise, that's the fun thing of a free world, where we all have different opinions

The only fun thing in the free world is that the morons stilll facilitating this nonsense can be ridiculed by the more sane members of society.

[Crimson Dynamo]

says you


and i say otherwise, that's the fun thing of a free world, where we all have different opinions

again

incorrect

[Mystic Mock]

Imane Khelif is biologically female

end of



muslims can't be trans, they just can't



my point was more that you just have women who have more muscle, masculine qualities


more examples: Williams sisters (Serena & Venus) as if they look any feminine

or Simona Halep, whom even underwent breast reduction surgery to enhance her performances on court



the only exception of a successful sportswoman in the tennis, Maria Sharapova i guess (but then again she used doping, and lets not go further into that)



Raducanu isn't that good of a player honestly, she's more an influencer sort of type :fan:



my current personal favourite Jessica Pegula, doesn't look too masculine for my liking, (she's quite HOT tbh, but that is my personal taste perhaps) her advantages are more coming from quite a good amount of wealth, which she cleverly invests into having her own hard court, clay court at her mansion in Florida + a lot of years in the doubles also made her the experienced player she is today, and she transitions that quite decently into her singles game, from lower ranked (below top 700 even) to the top 10 ranked she is today

+ passion for sports runs in the Pegula family, that also helps a lot

Personally I hope that you're right, because it means that all of Khelif's fights were legit, which as someone that loves competitions I do want to see a fair contest, or as fair as humanly possible anyway.

And yeah Raducanu isn't the best Tennis player, but like with Birmingham City Football Club I will keep rooting for her to win major events.:laugh:

[user104658]

Are you referring to Lia Thomas? She is the usual scapegoat used for an example of this.

Is it disproportionate at the top levels vs the overall levels, that's what I am asking? I can't see it is, there aren't swathes of professional athletes taking Gold medals at championships, it literally is just a few.

I'm not going to keep going on too much with this debate (it's going in circles, which is fine but a clear indication that there's nothing more to be gained from it either way) however I pedantically do have to pick this one up because it's just a baseline misunderstanding of statistics.

If the percentage of sports accolades won out of all women's sports is higher than the percentage of trans women in the general population, then that's statistical evidence of a category advantage. It doesn't matter if it's only a few. If it's a percentage that's disproportionate to the ratio in the whole population, then it's a statistically significant advantage. That's just plain basic scientific method.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Personally I hope that you're right

I refer the learned gentleman to the title of the thread

[Cherie]

Personally I hope that you're right, because it means that all of Khelif's fights were legit, which as someone that loves competitions I do want to see a fair contest, or as fair as humanly possible anyway.

And yeah Raducanu isn't the best Tennis player, but like with Birmingham City Football Club I will keep rooting for her to win major events.:laugh:

Did you miss the post where the test was leaked and it is confirmed Kalief is biologically male, I dont think you did Mock.... but you are finding it hard to come to terms with the fact that the IOC completely ignored this and allowed women to be put in danger on live tv due to not caring about women and only caring about looking inclusive

[Zizu]

This ‘person’ was competing in men’s events two years earlier


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[Zizu]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250605/84d4d9faece54897f846eea91ac37bed.jpg
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Sharon Davies said

“They would never have put a female boxer up on the shoulders on the male coach. “

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250605/a30a99fd3dfd2deefcc51d8d0685121d.jpg


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[Mystic Mock]

Did you miss the post where the test was leaked and it is confirmed Kalief is biologically male, I dont think you did Mock.... but you are finding it hard to come to terms with the fact that the IOC completely ignored this and allowed women to be put in danger on live tv due to not caring about women and only caring about looking inclusive

Is that test confirmed to be Khelif's?

Because tbh nowadays I never know what to believe when it comes to what the Media reports.

[Mystic Mock]

I refer the learned gentleman to the title of the thread

So Khelif is actually Trans? Because I'm getting confused on if she's Trans or Intersex.:laugh:

This is what I mean when I say that the Media makes it hard to know what the truth even is half of the time.

[Crimson Dynamo]

So Khelif is actually Trans? Because I'm getting confused on if she's Trans or Intersex.:laugh:

This is what I mean when I say that the Media makes it hard to know what the truth even is half of the time.

trans is a thought and intersex is a condition

both are either male or female

[Cherie]

Is that test confirmed to be Khelif's?

Because tbh nowadays I never know what to believe when it comes to what the Media reports.

Why do you think he was banned by the WBO and why the ban was uncontested ...:whistle:

[BBXX]

I'm not going to keep going on too much with this debate (it's going in circles, which is fine but a clear indication that there's nothing more to be gained from it either way) however I pedantically do have to pick this one up because it's just a baseline misunderstanding of statistics.

If the percentage of sports accolades won out of all women's sports is higher than the percentage of trans women in the general population, then that's statistical evidence of a category advantage. It doesn't matter if it's only a few. If it's a percentage that's disproportionate to the ratio in the whole population, then it's a statistically significant advantage. That's just plain basic scientific method.

I understand that, but no stats have yet been provided.

The truth is, trans women, if they were at an insane advantage would DOMINATE their sport. They would win literally everything. That isn't happening. They might win the odd match or a swim or a game, or they might beat a record (records are being beaten all the time) but there is no trans woman continuously dominating their sport time after time after time. They win some and they lose lsome ike every other participant.

[BBXX]

Women don't need anyone to redefine them. We know what we are lol. Nobody I've seen has asked others to advocate for them. We can advocate for ourselves.

Consider we're being instructed we should think of ourselves differently, but yet, we have to support the self-identification of other people with zero questions whatsoever. None of that makes any logical sense.

Not all women are the same as you and want the same as you. Not all women want to be defined by their body.

I'm not calling for redefinition, I'm calling for a relaxing of how women (in fact, people in general) are defined so women aren't pigeonholed by their uterus.

Nobody is asking you to think yourself differently, you can think of your womanhood how you want, but other women can too and if that isn't tied to their womb or their vagina then that's also fine was my point.

The only people instructing women how they should define themselves are people like JK Rowling and those supporting the Supreme Court ruling.

[BBXX]

Why do you think he was banned by the WBO and why the ban was uncontested ...:whistle:

Whines about people saying the word "cis" but calls someone who was born and raise female in a country that doesn't recognise trans people in any capacity "he" without seeing any actual evidence or proof... can't work out if that's dumb or just hateful or maybe it's both.

I'm done here.

[Zizu]

I understand that, but no stats have yet been provided.

The truth is, trans women, if they were at an insane advantage would DOMINATE their sport. They would win literally everything. That isn't happening. They might win the odd match or a swim or a game, or they might beat a record (records are being beaten all the time) but there is no trans woman continuously dominating their sport time after time after time. They win some and they lose lsome ike every other participant.


Have you not seen what’s happening on tje states ?

Loads of protests at sporting events across the country and its only gonna get worse now ..

The other ‘young ladies’ are refusing to even share the podium with them


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[Cherie]

Whines about people saying the word "cis" but calls someone who was born and raise female in a country that doesn't recognise trans people in any capacity "he" without seeing any actual evidence or proof... can't work out if that's dumb or just hateful or maybe it's both.

I'm done here.

Tbh the reason I referred to him as a 'he' is due to you continually ignoring my requests to stop referring to cis women, cis men, we know what you mean we dont need the prefix, you dont care to accommodate me, so whats good for the goose etc and now who is whining? I could say its hateful or dumb or both to ignore female members requests to quit with the cis nonsense but you carried on anyway as you know best apparently

and what do you mean NO PROOF, so the WBO just banned on a whim did they?

[Nicky91]

there are no trans people in countries with islam as main religion

[Livia]

there are no trans people in countries with islam as main religion

How come you're quite accepting of that? Insisting we all accept it, but cutting Islam slack? Sounds like a double standard to me.

[user104658]

I understand that, but no stats have yet been provided.

The truth is, trans women, if they were at an insane advantage would DOMINATE their sport. They would win literally everything. That isn't happening. They might win the odd match or a swim or a game, or they might beat a record (records are being beaten all the time) but there is no trans woman continuously dominating their sport time after time after time. They win some and they lose lsome ike every other participant.

Maybe we have different opinions here; I don't think it has to be "an insane advantage" to be unacceptable and (frankly) misogynistic "collateral damage"... Any statistical advantage should rule out professional competition. Steroids and other performance enhancing drugs don't necessarily confer an "insane" advantage and "winning literally everything", but they're not considered to be acceptable in professional sports for a reason; the advantages that they do give result in unfair victories, and not harmless victories, others who had no such advantage are pushed off of podiums and down the rankings.

The fact that there's a lack of good data is another part of the issue itself, separate but utterly nefarious; several groups and organisations (both officially organised and layperson online campaign groups who would consider themselves trans allies) have threatened, harassed, doxxed and bullied academics for attempting to gather this data and statistics, and done the same to sociologists and psychologists attempting to study the roots and potential social effects of issues surrounding transgenderism, declaring it "hateful", "offensive" and "unacceptable" whilst similtaneously funding and publishing dubious research and bogus biological "science" that's agenda-driven and nowhere near to being unbiased or borne of simple academic curiosity. So the lack of statistics is for a reason, and the data that is available is highly suspect. This was allowed to go on for the better part of a decade but has ended up being a shot in the foot. It's backfired spectacularly, and now even the pursuit of that knowledge (let alone any reliable data) is going to be out of reach for a generation. That's the legacy of stonewall. Utter disaster, ten steps backwards, and a backlash that plays right into the hands of right wing politics in general.

It makes me despair, honestly.

[BBXX]

Tbh the reason I referred to him as a 'he' is due to you continually ignoring my requests to stop referring to cis women, cis men, we know what you mean we dont need the prefix, you dont care to accommodate me, so whats good for the goose etc and now who is whining? I could say its hateful or dumb or both to ignore female members requests to quit with the cis nonsense but you carried on anyway as you know best apparently

and what do you mean NO PROOF, so the WBO just banned on a whim did they?

LOL Cherie I am using cis as an adjective to refer to a collective. I’ve told you before if I refer to cis it’s generally, and not aimed at you specifically if that’s not how you identify. Why do you insist on thinking I’m talking about you if you don’t identify as a cis woman? If someone talks about women named Mary do you tell them to stop calling you Mary or do you understand that they’re not talking about you because they know your name isn’t Mary?

Additionally, you don’t complain when I use the word ‘trans women” because it doesn’t apply to you, which is funny because the meaning of the word trans is literally the opposite of the word cis and therefore makes the usage of both words legitimate.

You on the other hand have referred to someone specific, someone born as a female and raised as a female as a MAN. What I do by saying cis and what you do by misgendering someone are two very different things. You must know that.

At the very most she might be intersex or have some other biological anomaly, but that doesn’t mean she’s a man. Do you really think she was born male and then everyone in her life, in a Muslim country, colluded and lied about it and changed her sex and then said Muslim country sent a trans person to the Olympics? Yeah, sounds likely.

[Livia]

Are there any women on this thread who "identify as a cis woman"? Anyone? Anyone at all?

[Glenn.]

Y’all have such a problem with anyone identifying as anything they want so unlikely

[BBXX]

Are there any women on this thread who "identify as a cis woman"? Anyone? Anyone at all?

Have I been referring to any women specifically on this thread as cis women, or have I been speaking about the entire population? If you feel it doesn't apply to you, then that's fine I am not talking about you.

I'll say it again though... cis just means the opposite of trans. It's not an insult. It's an adjective. It's not the same as calling someone born female and raised female a male because they may have a genetic abnormality. Ew.

[user104658]

Do you really think she was born male and then everyone in her life, in a Muslim country, colluded and lied about it and changed her sex and then said Muslim country sent a trans person to the Olympics? Yeah, sounds likely.

That doesn't sound likely.

What does sound likely in a country that rejects anything other than sex at birth, is that this person was born biologically male but with ambiguous genitalia (not particularly uncommon) and was declared female on their birth certificate, but in fact is biologically male and then underwent male puberty, whilst still being legally classed as female in their country - as that country likely has no legal framework that would allow for changing it, even on discovery that they were actually born male. "The paperwork says female and that's that", I imagine may be the stance.

Spexulation of course, but I think a likely scenario IF it is true that genetic testing has indeed shown them to be biologically male.

In theory; she may not even have known.

[Livia]

Have I been referring to any women specifically on this thread as cis women, or have I been speaking about the entire population? If you feel it doesn't apply to you, then that's fine I am not talking about you.

I'll say it again though... cis just means the opposite of trans. It's not an insult. It's an adjective. It's not the same as calling someone born female and raised female a male because they may have a genetic abnormality. Ew.

You're talking generally about natural born women. I am a natural born woman. I don't have to identify as anything nor watch while you shove women into a pigeonhole to suit your own agenda.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That doesn't sound likely.

What does sound likely in a country that rejects anything other than sex at birth, is that this person was born biologically male but with ambiguous genitalia (not particularly uncommon) and was declared female on their birth certificate, but in fact is biologically male and then underwent male puberty, whilst still being legally classed as female in their country - as that country likely has no legal framework that would allow for changing it, even on discovery that they were actually born male. "The paperwork says female and that's that", I imagine may be the stance.

Spexulation of course, but I think a likely scenario IF it is true that genetic testing has indeed shown them to be biologically male.

In theory; she may not even have known.

I recall posting some decent evidence and agreement that said had he been born in Europe he wouod have been correctly assigned male at birth, but he was born in Algeria..

[Maru]

Is that test confirmed to be Khelif's?

Because tbh nowadays I never know what to believe when it comes to what the Media reports.

It's not going to be confirmed easily if it involves anything medical

[Maru]

Are there any women on this thread who "identify as a cis woman"? Anyone? Anyone at all?

I haven't met a single woman that has ever used the term personally, much less in this thread. I've never heard the term from other professionals or even in the medical field... it's clearly a minority view (or term).

[BBXX]

I haven't met a single woman that has ever used the term personally, much less in this thread. I've never heard the term from other professionals or even in the medical field... it's clearly a minority view (or term).

I don’t go around calling myself a cis man generally, but if I am having a conversation about trans men and cis men I will say “cis men” and “trans men” to distinguish between which of the men I am talking about.

If I’m having a conversation about men and am discussing the differences in life between straight men and gay men I will refer to them as straight men and gay men, not “men” and “gay men”.

If I am having a conversation about men and am referring to the differences in life between white men and black men, I will say “white men” and “black men” not “men” and “black men”.

If I am having a conversation about men and the differences of views between Conservative men and Liberal Men I will say Conservative men and Liberal men not “Men” and “Conservative Men”

It really is just that simple and really isn’t that deep.

[Zizu]

I prefer the old ways / days tbh


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[Nicky91]

How come you're quite accepting of that? Insisting we all accept it, but cutting Islam slack? Sounds like a double standard to me.

i'm just stating facts, hun


transitioning from male to female, or vice versa is forbidden, it says so in the Quran


same how those terrorists are also against their own religion kinda, since terrorism is a sin




you say christian catholics are a strict religion, but the Islam is also quite strict honestly

[Beso]

I understand that, but no stats have yet been provided.

The truth is, trans women, if they were at an insane advantage would DOMINATE their sport. They would win literally everything. That isn't happening. They might win the odd match or a swim or a game, or they might beat a record (records are being beaten all the time) but there is no trans woman continuously dominating their sport time after time after time. They win some and they lose lsome ike every other participant.



The reason for the loses are probably due to them facing another trans competitor.

[Cherie]

I don’t go around calling myself a cis man generally, but if I am having a conversation about trans men and cis men I will say “cis men” and “trans men” to distinguish between which of the men I am talking about.

If I’m having a conversation about men and am discussing the differences in life between straight men and gay men I will refer to them as straight men and gay men, not “men” and “gay men”.

If I am having a conversation about men and am referring to the differences in life between white men and black men, I will say “white men” and “black men” not “men” and “black men”.

If I am having a conversation about men and the differences of views between Conservative men and Liberal Men I will say Conservative men and Liberal men not “Men” and “Conservative Men”

It really is just that simple and really isn’t that deep.

The examples above are like comparing apples and oranges, we were born women, not cis women, transwomen were born men hence the prefix trans to denote they were born men, now that to me is pretty simple, women do not need the prefix cis just to soothe the brows of trans women which is essentially what adding the prefix is, if you are talking about women and transwomen its pretty evident who is who to everyone.

[BBXX]

The examples above are like comparing apples and oranges, we were born women, not cis women, transwomen were born men hence the prefix trans to denote they were born men, now that to me is pretty simple, women do not need the prefix cis just to soothe the brows of trans women which is essentially what adding the prefix is, if you are talking about women and transwomen its pretty evident who is who to everyone.

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.

[Mystic Mock]

It's not going to be confirmed easily if it involves anything medical

True.

I still think that the Media is muddying the waters with all of the speculation.

[Cherie]

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.

Agreed thank you

[BBXX]

The reason for the loses are probably due to them facing another trans competitor.

What if I told you they weren't tho?

[Beso]

Olympic champion Imane Khelif is skipping the Eindhoven Box Cup in the Netherlands less than a week after World Boxing announced mandatory sex testing for all athletes.

[Beso]

What if I told you they weren't tho?

I wouldn't believe you.. you are 2, one dimensional, on this subject.

[Ammi]

…when Imane was being discussed during the Olympics, I looked at some of her fight losses, which is something that conflicted me a lot because it seemed to contradict ‘advantaged’…I’m not someone who is hugely familiar with boxing but I recall someone saying that they personally felt that Imane’s win against Angela Carini, was it…?..didn’t to them feel as though it displayed any fighting technique as such but just more ‘force and power’, that they wouldn’t have said that she excelled in her sport other than a physical power…which is interesting for me because she was assigned female at birth and has lived her childhood and life as female so therefore has not had ‘the privilege’ of male in her home country in terms of training…as a female, she wasn’t able to train as a boxer until she was much older…16yrs old, I think…which is very late for an Olympic athlete/competitor…and in that training that many female competing boxers would have had from a much younger age, is that not where techniques and refinements and the skills of competing in general are learned…?…so it could be said, that her development in the sport is/has been late because of her country restrictions of being female…?…and maybe explain convincing losses of the past to those who have honed and finessed their techniques as well as any physical power they have…I don’t know what her recent fights/history have been other than the Olympics so I don’t know what win/loss results there have been in recent years but I think the Kellie Harrington loss was a few years ago so it would be interesting to know in recent years, whether the wins are the dominating results now…I guess that there is no way of knowing that without risking the physical safety of a competitor with a potential power advantage in a combat arena…

[user104658]

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

The thing is, whilst I think for linguistic/conversational simplicity, It think it would be useful to have a word that can be used in this distinguishing way (when discussing trans issues, specifically) HOWEVER what I do find completely disingenuous is pretending that there isn't a very good reason that women have taken against it even when used in good faith. It was used pointedly/as a slur for years. You understand this, the people doing it understand this, they MUST, given the number of words that have become slurs against them. Using a word pointedly (or knowing it has been used this way) and then insisting "you shouldn't have a problem with this word when it's not being used as a slur :)" is gaslight. You might as well be saying "Well, breeders is accurate for people with kids, it only means people who have offspring :)".

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

The irony here of course is that it kind of falls under the same thing. There is no meaningful difference between "trans woman" and "transwoman" other than the inference but you can clearly see why that is a problem whilst denying that "cis" is a problem. I get a bit stuck on my answer here because it is used pointedly but it's hard to say that the "space" makes an objective difference beyond intent. But it is -- you have to accept, I'm afraid -- a perfectly legitimate opinion to believe that biologically male trans individuals are not women. You cannot legally discriminate against them for that... but as an individual opinion, yes you are allowed to believe that trans women are not women. Thought-policing is not the vibe. I'm (largely) fine with restrictions on actions and behaviour, but not opinions.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.

Similar to the above, I think "a man" is pointed however even if you think it's respectful to avoid saying "male" (if proven) or "potentially male" (speculative) I think it does cobble the discussion. How else would you say it if you believe that this individual may actually be biologically male?

[user104658]

…when Imane was being discussed during the Olympics, I looked at some of her fight losses, which is something that conflicted me a lot because it seemed to contradict ‘advantaged’…I’m not someone who is hugely familiar with boxing but I recall someone saying that they personally felt that Imane’s win against Angela Carini, was it…?..didn’t to them feel as though it displayed any fighting technique as such but just more ‘force and power’, that they wouldn’t have said that she excelled in her sport other than a physical power…which is interesting for me because she was assigned female at birth and has lived her childhood and life as female so therefore has not had ‘the privilege’ of male in her home country in terms of training…as a female, she wasn’t able to train as a boxer until she was much older…16yrs old, I think…which is very late for an Olympic athlete/competitor…and in that training that many female competing boxers would have had from a much younger age, is that not where techniques and refinements and competing in general are learned…?…so it could be said, that her development in the sport is/has been late because of her country restrictions of being female…?…and maybe explain convincing losses of the past to those who have honed and finessed their techniques as well as any physical power….I don’t know what her recent fights/history have been other than the Olympics so I don’t know what win/loss results there have been in recent years but I think the Kellie Harrington loss was a few years ago so it would be interesting to know in recent years, whether the wins are the dominating results now…I guess that there is no way of knowing that without risking the physical safety of a competitor with a potential power advantage in a combat arena…

Yes people tend to forget that boxing is not UFC - fights usually don't end in knockouts, it's a points-based sport an so skill will also factor in massively in the lighter weight categories. The physical strength and reach advantage is the reason she won most of her fights, often against higher-skilled and better trained fighters, and is really exactly WHY it's such an unfair advantage.

[Niamh.]

…when Imane was being discussed during the Olympics, I looked at some of her fight losses, which is something that conflicted me a lot because it seemed to contradict ‘advantaged’…I’m not someone who is hugely familiar with boxing but I recall someone saying that they personally felt that Imane’s win against Angela Carini, was it…?..didn’t to them feel as though it displayed any fighting technique as such but just more ‘force and power’, that they wouldn’t have said that she excelled in her sport other than a physical power…which is interesting for me because she was assigned female at birth and has lived her childhood and life as female so therefore has not had ‘the privilege’ of male in her home country in terms of training…as a female, she wasn’t able to train as a boxer until she was much older…16yrs old, I think…which is very late for an Olympic athlete/competitor…and in that training that many female competing boxers would have had from a much younger age, is that not where techniques and refinements and the skills of competing in general are learned…?…so it could be said, that her development in the sport is/has been late because of her country restrictions of being female…?…and maybe explain convincing losses of the past to those who have honed and finessed their techniques as well as any physical power they have…I don’t know what her recent fights/history have been other than the Olympics so I don’t know what win/loss results there have been in recent years but I think the Kellie Harrington loss was a few years ago so it would be interesting to know in recent years, whether the wins are the dominating results now…I guess that there is no way of knowing that without risking the physical safety of a competitor with a potential power advantage in a combat arena…
I watched the fight against Kellie Harrington and Kellie was a far better boxer, imane barely landed a punch, they were in different weight classes though last Olympics so there was no rematch between them to see if it would have had a different outcome

[Zizu]

I disagree, but I'll stop saying cis woman on this forum.

While we are doing a sweep of language that's annoying/can be seen as offensive, please can we start saying "trans woman" instead of "transwoman" as the latter isn't correct and infers a type of othering that removes them as women.

If we could also refrain from calling Imane Khelif a man that would also be great. Regardless of any test results (of which we have no actual evidence) she was born a female, raised a female and identifies as such and it would be great to respect that.


He / she / they have not one single feminine trait .. like Sharon Davies said … after ever victory her coach lifted him/her up onto his shoulders … that is only something they do with MALE boxers


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[Ammi]

I watched the fight against Kellie Harrington and Kelly was a far better boxer, imane barely landed a punch, they were in different weight classes though last Olympics so there was no rematch between them to see if it would have had a different outcome

…that’s what I mean, in terms of Imane because her situation is more unique…she could be seen as a ‘late developer’ in terms of not having been able to train in boxing competition because of the restrictions of her home country …so a lack of techniques and finesse and competing in general could have meant losses at the beginning of her career but any ‘advantaged power and strength’ etc might now becoming more and more to the fore…in terms of safety for all athletes, that has to be a huge consideration…I mean, I don’t know…these are things that I’ve considered and I feel have to be considered because they’re too important and potentially dangerous not to in a combat sport/arena…

[BBXX]

The thing is, whilst I think for linguistic/conversational simplicity, It think it would be useful to have a word that can be used in this distinguishing way (when discussing trans issues, specifically) HOWEVER what I do find completely disingenuous is pretending that there isn't a very good reason that women have taken against it even when used in good faith. It was used pointedly/as a slur for years. You understand this, the people doing it understand this, they MUST, given the number of words that have become slurs against them. Using a word pointedly (or knowing it has been used this way) and then insisting "you shouldn't have a problem with this word when it's not being used as a slur :)" is gaslight. You might as well be saying "Well, breeders is accurate for people with kids, it only means people who have offspring :)".

Stop calling everything gaslighting. Context matters to whether the word is an insult or not. Gay is used an insult, still, yet it's also used an an accurate adjective for a man who loves another man. Nobody gay would have any issue with someone calling someone gay unless the context was insulting or othering. I've never used cis in a derogatory way, and that should be taken into consideration when my usage of the word is being discussed.

The irony here of course is that it kind of falls under the same thing. There is no meaningful difference between "trans woman" and "transwoman" other than the inference but you can clearly see why that is a problem whilst denying that "cis" is a problem. I get a bit stuck on my answer here because it is used pointedly but it's hard to say that the "space" makes an objective difference beyond intent. But it is -- you have to accept, I'm afraid -- a perfectly legitimate opinion to believe that biologically male trans individuals are not women. You cannot legally discriminate against them for that... but as an individual opinion, yes you are allowed to believe that trans women are not women. Thought-policing is not the vibe. I'm (largely) fine with restrictions on actions and behaviour, but not opinions.

Agreed, it's perfectly legitimate, which is why I haven't mentioned it until now despite it being used constantly, because I was giving the benefit of the doubt it was being used in a non-derogatory way. I was being extremely pedantic and petty because of the reaction to the usage of the word cis.


Similar to the above, I think "a man" is pointed however even if you think it's respectful to avoid saying "male" (if proven) or "potentially male" (speculative) I think it does cobble the discussion. How else would you say it if you believe that this individual may actually be biologically male?

Saying "he" when that person identifies as a woman, was assigned female and raised as one their entire life is just disrespectful... it just is.

I am under no illusion that trans women are not biological women. That of course is undeniable. However, even though I know that, I still refer to them as she out of respect for them and how they want to be known. It doesn't really matter that I know in science they are biological men. It would be crass of me to call them he out of simple manners.

It's like if my name was Benjamin and I said "I hate it though so please call me Luke" and you continued to call me Benjamin. My actual name isn't Luke, it's not on my birth certificate and it's not how I was Christened or whatever, but I'm asking you to do the grace and humour me despite you knowing it's not actually my name.

At the very least it's not asking you to believe they're women, it's just asking you to do the good mannered thing and humour them. You can believe what you want.

If someone doesn't want to do that, fine. Call them he if you can't bring yourself to humour someone. But don't complain if someone tells you that you're being a dick. :shrug:

[Livia]

You're asking us to do the good-mannered thing lol.... And if we don't comply WE'RE being a dick.

I'm done with men telling me how I should think and behave. DONE.

[BBXX]

You're asking us to do the good-mannered thing lol.... And if we don't comply WE'RE being a dick.

I'm done with men telling me how I should think and behave. DONE.

Nobody is stopping you from thinking what you want and saying what you want, but freedom of speech isn't freedom of consequence and if you do something that someone considers rude, prepare to be called rude.

You are happy to risk insulting someone by sticking by your beliefs and principals, why are you surprised when they do the same to you?

[user104658]

Stop calling everything gaslighting. Context matters to whether the word is an insult or not.

The part that's gaslighting is the pretending not to know why people are pissed off with the word/that it's only been used neutrally and what it "technically means". I see where you're coming from in principle but the general sense of "why on earth would anyone have an issue with ye olde latin word cis" whilst knowing that it's been frequently used in a pointed way in a contentious issue. It's also not the same as the precursor gay/straight, because no one is disputing the noun when those words are used. If you say "gay man" or "straight man" neutrally... no one is disputing in either case that noun subject (man). When you use the differentiation of "cis woman" and "trans woman" the premise is that both parties accept the noun "woman" to refer to both, when that will often not be the case. This is actually the same issue when it comes to "trans woman" (adjective+noun) vs "transwoman" (singular noun). These linguistics are baked right into the debate, whether that's ideologically or subconsciously.





At the very least it's not asking you to believe they're women, it's just asking you to do the good mannered thing and humour them. You can believe what you want.

If someone doesn't want to do that, fine. Call them he if you can't bring yourself to humour someone. But don't complain if someone tells you that you're being a dick. :shrug:

I agree with that in general and would do exactly that. I'm happy to say "she" when I believe that the person in question is genuine and the situation is uncomplicated. However that's a large caveat ("uncomplicated") -- for example, I am extremely hesitant to refer to an apparent trans-identifying male offender who has sexually assaulted women as "she" -- in that situation agreeing to "she" is at the point of being grossly offensive to the victims of that individual. They were not assaulted by a "she". They were assaulted by a predatory male. And even more importantly - the statistics of that offense MUST be recorded as a male perpetrator / female victim. The same applies to trans men (especially teenage females identifying as male) being assaulted by men. They MUST be recorded as female victims. This data is extremely important.

Worth noting: I entirely recognise that of the above two scenarios, young biologically female trans-identifying "boys" being assaulted by men, i.e. the trans person being the victim, is FAR more common, simply because biological females are the #1 victims of sexual violence by a massive margin. Considering them to be "boys" assaulted by men (in any sort of statistic) is frankly insane.

Extreme examples I know, but part of illustrating that language is important, in all sorts of scenarios, and can't just be a matter of the individual preference of "the listener".

[Nicky91]

You're asking us to do the good-mannered thing lol.... And if we don't comply WE'RE being a dick.

I'm done with men telling me how I should think and behave. DONE.

not at all


i am just having my own opinion, and you guys are having your own opinions


this is called a good debate, hun


where more people having different opinions, i wouldn't go telling you how you should think

[Crimson Dynamo]

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.

:whistle:

[Zizu]

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.

:whistle:


She supposed ruptured her bollox in training

Ouch !


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[Maru]

She supposed ruptured her bollox in training

Ouch !


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If they are intersex then they may not have that part. It's entirely possible they didn't know about their condition until later on in their life/career. It's also not fun to be picked on for medical conditions one can't help and especially if it is invisible. It doesn't mean I think their participation was correct, but I have sympathy they were seemingly allowed despite this only to have the rug pulled later on.

[Vicky.]

Yes intersex athletes are very different to trans ones, and even the trans ones..it's the fault of the organisers for allowing it in the first place

[Zizu]

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.

:whistle:


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250608/d7d181c1d09c7c18524d65fd83c750d4.jpg


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[Beso]

Olympic Boxer Imane Khelif Withdraws from Women’s Eindhoven Tournament After Mandatory Sex Testing Policy Announced

"The decision of Imane's exclusion is not ours. We regret it," tournament media
director Dirk Renders told The Associated Press.

:whistle:




https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11655017&postcount=295

[Jessica.]

I don't "identify" as a cis woman, I AM a cis women. I identify as female.

[Livia]

I am not a cis anything. I am a woman. I don't need defining.

[Mystic Mock]

I identify as a Bin man.

After all I sort the rubbish out more than the actual bin men do.:hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

The gender row fighter will be skipping the upcoming World Championships after the introduction of sex testing

who would have thought that?

:shrug:


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2025/08/21/20/101381653-15022711-The_Olympic_boxing_champion_is_yet_to_return_to_th e_ring_one_yea-a-2_1755805188414.jpg

[Niamh.]

I wonder how the law suit against JK Rowling is going? :think:

[Mystic Mock]

The gender row fighter will be skipping the upcoming World Championships after the introduction of sex testing

who would have thought that?

:shrug:


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2025/08/21/20/101381653-15022711-The_Olympic_boxing_champion_is_yet_to_return_to_th e_ring_one_yea-a-2_1755805188414.jpg

I had a feeling unfortunately that this Boxer was up to no good.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I had a feeling unfortunately that this Boxer was up to no good.

Your intuition did not let you down Mock I fear

[Nicky91]

good riddance for the world championships to not have this dude competing among women

[Zizu]

Thank the lawd he didn’t hurt anyone too seriously !


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