Boxer Imane Khelif Has XY Chromosomes And "Testicles"

[Crimson Dynamo]

Algerian Boxer Imane Khelif Has XY Chromosomes And "Testicles" : French-Algerian Medical Report Admits

https://reduxx.info/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/IMANE-KHELIF-MEDICAL-REPORT-696x392.jpg

A shocking new development has emerged in the case of Algerian boxer
Imane Khelif after a French journalist reportedly gained access to a damning
medical report revealing Khelif has “testicles.” The news comes months after
Khelif seized a gold medal in women’s boxing at the Paris Olympics.

The report was drafted in June of 2023 via a collaboration between the
Kremlin-Bicêtre hospital in Paris, France, and the Mohamed Lamine
Debaghine hospital in Algiers, Algeria. Drafted by expert endocrinologists
Soumaya Fedala and Jacques Young, the report reveals that Khelif is
impacted by 5-alpha reductase deficiency, a disorder of sexual development
that is only found in biological males.

Speaking to Reduxx on this latest revelation, ICONS co-founder Marshi Smith
slammed the IOC and the Algerian Olympic Committee for allowing Khelif to
continue his journey to Paris gold despite being fully aware he was genetically
male.

“The IOC and the Algerian Olympic Committee are complicit in endorsing
male violence against women under the guise of public entertainment on the
world’s largest sports stage,” Smith said. “They stood by as women were
subjected to physical assault for spectacle, stripped of safety, fairness, and
their lifetime achievements. All those involved must face swift and serious
consequences.”

Smith adds that she believes Khelif should be stripped of his gold medal, but
doubts any action will be taken to rectify the injustice.

“We urge leaders in sports and governments worldwide to condemn the IOC
and demand a public commitment to ensuring fair and safe sports for women
from this day forward. This must never be allowed to happen again.”

https://reduxx.info/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-has-xy-chromosomes-and-testicles-french-algerian-medical-report-admits/

[Crimson Dynamo]

Riley Gaines

Riley_Gaines_
Remember the man who won an Olympic gold medal in women’s boxing?

His medical reports show he has XY chromosomes, male testosterone levels, testicles, & a micropenis.

But that never mattered—they believe that words & feelings make you woman, not biology.
https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1853416147225387212

[user104658]

His medical reports show he has XY chromosomes, male testosterone levels, testicles, & a micropenis.

Elon Musk?

[Beso]

I told you.

[UserSince2005]

Her girlfriend is very lucky, best of both worlds by the sounds of it. :love:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I told you.

Everyone knew

some knew and pretended because a culture war win is more important than a woman's health

that is wild

[Beso]

Everyone knew

some knew and pretended because a culture war win is more important than a woman's health

that is wild

:crazy:

[Nicky91]

His medical reports show he has XY chromosomes, male testosterone levels, testicles, & a micropenis.


not Donald Trump's medical report leaked :fan:

[Mystic Mock]

Is this confirmed to be true?

Either way I didn't agree with Khelif fighting at that particular level anyway.

[BBXX]

Is this confirmed to be true?

Either way I didn't agree with Khelif fighting at that particular level anyway.

I am waiting until it comes from a source other than Reduxx....

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reduxx-bias-and-credibility/

[Nicky91]

Is this confirmed to be true?

Either way I didn't agree with Khelif fighting at that particular level anyway.

i doubt it


probably again shared by the IBA president Umar Kremlev, and considering him being russian, i don't believe a single thing those pigs say



i did agree with Khelif fighting at that particular level, i also watched the final



and as if other female boxers, don't look masculine



but yeah she is muslim, so gets picked up on easier than others :notimpressed:

[Nicky91]

also it is illegal in a country like Algeria to be transgender


i believe Imane her father more than these gossip tabloids whom get fed by Mr Kremlev's shady antics

[Ninastar]

Whaaaaaat!? I did not see this coming! I am shocked! SHOCKED I tell you

[Nicky91]

Whaaaaaat!? I did not see this coming! I am shocked! SHOCKED I tell you

Imane is a biologically born female


i don't accept any other opinions

[Cherie]

Riley Gaines

Riley_Gaines_
Remember the man who won an Olympic gold medal in women’s boxing?

His medical reports show he has XY chromosomes, male testosterone levels, testicles, & a micropenis.

But that never mattered—they believe that words & feelings make you woman, not biology.
https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1853416147225387212

another weirdo obsessive caring about women, when will they stop

[Ninastar]

Imane is a biologically born female


i don't accept any other opinions

I don’t care how your smooth brain feels

[Nicky91]

another weirdo obsessive caring about women, when will they stop

boomers having those first world problems caring way too much about women


while other people are struggling


like in Spain currently, or in Gaza

[Cherie]

Whaaaaaat!? I did not see this coming! I am shocked! SHOCKED I tell you

So hard to believe, but then a transwoman was put in charge of a rape crisis centre for women, I guess there were no actual women available and they had to hire from the .00000% pool, 'and the good guys said it would never happen'

The chief executive of a sexual assault support service has stood down after a review found it failed to protect women-only spaces.

Mridul Wadhwa – a trans woman – resigned after a Rape Crisis Scotland report found she failed to behave professionally while head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC).

The investigation, carried out by an independent consultant, also found Ms Wadhwa “did not understand the limits of her authority” and the needs of survivors were not prioritised.

In a statement, the ERCC board said it was implementing recommendations from the review, but felt the “time was right for a change of leadership”.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2edeyzz0xmo

[Cherie]

boomers having those first world problems caring way too much about women


while other people are struggling


like in Spain currently, or in Gaza

You are right Nicky, caring about women is only for weirdo obsessives..

[BBXX]

So hard to believe, but then a transwoman was put in charge of a rape crisis centre for women, I guess there were no actual women available and they had to hire from the .00000% pool, 'and the good guys said it would never happen'

The chief executive of a sexual assault support service has stood down after a review found it failed to protect women-only spaces.

Mridul Wadhwa – a trans woman – resigned after a Rape Crisis Scotland report found she failed to behave professionally while head of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC).

The investigation, carried out by an independent consultant, also found Ms Wadhwa “did not understand the limits of her authority” and the needs of survivors were not prioritised.

In a statement, the ERCC board said it was implementing recommendations from the review, but felt the “time was right for a change of leadership”.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2edeyzz0xmo

Many people have resigned or been fired from their jobs for not being right for the role post employment. Why is it news?

[Cherie]

Many people have resigned or been fired from their jobs for not being right for the role post employment. Why is it news?

Sigh

[BBXX]

Sigh

I am just confused why a trans woman being **** at her job is being bought up in a conversation about an unproven report on a boxer's medical records...

Are you able to educate me on why it's relevant and why it's connected?

[Cherie]

I am just confused why a trans woman being **** at her job is being bought up in a conversation about an unproven report on a boxer's medical records...

Are you able to educate me on why it's relevant and why it's connected?

Apart from being **** at her job, why was she in post in the first place, surely her views on the needs of survivors should have been raised at interview. I am sure there are plenty women qualified to do the job and it would be more appropriate to put someone in post who was born a women particularly in a Rape Crisis Centre for women, it would be similar to placing a transwoman in a domestic refuge for women do you agree? its connected because women are being put at a disadvantage in every walk of life to appease a very small percentage of the community

[Niamh.]

Well this is a shocking revelation.......

[BBXX]

Apart from being **** at her job, why was she in post in the first place, surely her views on the needs of survivors should have been raised at interview. I am sure there are plenty women qualified to do the job and it would be more appropriate to put someone in post who was born a women particularly in a Rape Crisis Centre for women, it would be similar to placing a transwoman in a domestic refuge for women do you agree? its connected because women are being put at a disadvantage in every walk of life to appease a very small percentage of the community

We weren't in the interview, so we do not know the ability of other applicants, how they interviewed, their background, experience, situation, if they were offered the role and turned it down, etc... you are assuming that because a Trans person was hired that it was a diversity hire specifically and then you're using that hire and the fact they weren't good at their job (like millions of other people who have been fired or resigned throughout life) to extrapolate that to being a threat/disadvantage to bio women.

Women's biggest threat is straight cis biological men... Not trans women.

[Niamh.]

We weren't in the interview, so we do not know the ability of other applicants, how they interviewed, their background, experience, situation, if they were offered the role and turned it down, etc... you are assuming that because a Trans person was hired that it was a diversity hire specifically and then you're using that hire and the fact they weren't good at their job (like millions of other people who have been fired or resigned throughout life) to extrapolate that to being a threat/disadvantage to bio women.

Women's biggest threat is straight cis biological men... Not trans women.

Women should be able to have a biological female in charge of a rape crisis centre for women.

[Livia]

Women should be able to have a biological female in charge of a rape crisis centre for women.

Succinctly put.

As for the boxer... Well none of us saw this coming, right. Watching a biological man beat up a biological woman is just sickening and it always surprises me when people stand up for it.

[Ammi]

…I thought this was all known already …that none of this is any new development but that there are and have always been complexities in the specific case of Imane….that she has a genetic condition that impacted her sexual development pre birth and was then assigned female at birth…and she was soicialised, raised etc as a female…anyways I have nothing else to add atm as I don’t feel this article is revealing anything that wasn’t already known and I also don’t feel that it’s a ‘good faith’ article and very slanted in its vein as it comments on Imane’s journey and having his journey despite being fully aware that he was genetically male…him/he/his is not for me atm an informative article and really shabby as this someone who was assigned a female at birth by the medical profession and that was how she was raised…and whatever her sexual development/specific condition etc…what she is and knows is female…


…the combat competitive sporting aspect for me is another aspect to be discussed…

[Niamh.]

…I thought this was all known already …that none of this is any new development but that there are and have always been complexities in the specific case of Imane….that she has a genetic condition that impacted her sexual development pre birth and was then assigned female at birth…and she was soicialised, raised etc as a female…anyways I have nothing else to add atm as I don’t feel this article is revealing anything that wasn’t already known and I also don’t feel that it’s a ‘good faith’ article and very slanted in its vein as it comments on Imane’s journey and having his journey despite being fully aware that he was genetically male…him/he/his is not for me atm an informative article and really shabby as this someone who was assigned a female at birth by the medical profession and that was how she was raised…and whatever her sexual development/specific condition etc…what she is and knows is female…


…the combat competitive sporting aspect for me is another aspect to be discussed…

This is and should be all that matters in this particular case. Women's safety should be the number 1 priority followed by women's right to fair play in sport.

[Ammi]

…that wasn’t what the thread/article etc was, though…it was apparently revealing a shocking revelation that so far as I’m aware, was already known and it doesn’t give or reveal anything new …and is also not an article that I’m going to comment further on atm …(…and having given lots of thoughts previously through the Olympics…)…because there isn’t anything new for me to add on information that was already known at the time …and I also don’t feel that from the wording, that it’s a good faith article and has a specific intention which I’m not going to be a part of…

[Jessica.]

Her being intersex doesn't make her a man, the description sounds like it's describing someone who has something like Swyer syndrome, she is physically just like any other woman minus the ovaries and with the help of IVF could carry a child and give birth. You don't get an advantage in sport with internal testicles.

[Niamh.]

…that wasn’t what the thread/article etc was, though…it was apparently revealing a shocking revelation that so far as I’m aware, was already known and it doesn’t give or reveal anything new …and is also not an article that I’m going to comment further on atm …(…and having given lots of thoughts previously through the Olympics…)…because there isn’t anything new for me to add on information that was already known at the time …and I also don’t feel that from the wording, that it’s a good faith article and has a specific intention which I’m not going to be a part of…

A lot of people did say at the time that the results which excluded both Imane and the other boxer (can't remember their name right now) from a previous competition were not to be trusted because it was the IBA who had done the tests

[Livia]

Her being intersex doesn't make her a man, the description sounds like it's describing someone who has something like Swyer syndrome, she is physically just like any other woman minus the ovaries and with the help of IVF could carry a child and give birth. You don't get an advantage in sport with internal testicles.

The male levels of testosterone should exclude her from fighting a woman in a boxing match. If she wants to live her life as a woman, fair enough, but I never want to see another biological woman being smashed in the face by a biological man ever again.

[Beso]

She got hired cause she is trans and it ticked boxes,the proof on this is the fact she was **** at her job..only a stubborn fool would refuse to accept that fact.

And this is a rape crisis centre that has hired someone unfit for the job to tick those boxes instead if doing another round of interviews to find someone able and qualified to do the job correctly.

It will take a rape by one of these people in one of these settings make some people wake up and smell the coffee, but even then there will be some calling it a one off.

[Mystic Mock]

I am waiting until it comes from a source other than Reduxx....

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/reduxx-bias-and-credibility/

Interesting information about Reduxx from that website that you've linked up.

[BBXX]

Women should be able to have a biological female in charge of a rape crisis centre for women.

I don't actually disagree with this statement, I just don't agree with the way the story was being utilised in the context of this topic particularly.

In regards to Imane - until I hear it from a reputable news source, I will believe what I have been told from the person whose body it is: they were born and assigned female and was raised as such. Nobody gave a **** about Imane competing in the 2020 Olympics when she was knocked out at the Quarter finals.

[BBXX]

The male levels of testosterone should exclude her from fighting a woman in a boxing match. If she wants to live her life as a woman, fair enough, but I never want to see another biological woman being smashed in the face by a biological man ever again.

Where is the actual evidence she is a biological man?

[Cherie]

We weren't in the interview, so we do not know the ability of other applicants, how they interviewed, their background, experience, situation, if they were offered the role and turned it down, etc... you are assuming that because a Trans person was hired that it was a diversity hire specifically and then you're using that hire and the fact they weren't good at their job (like millions of other people who have been fired or resigned throughout life) to extrapolate that to being a threat/disadvantage to bio women.

Women's biggest threat is straight cis biological men... Not trans women.

I fully agree, however I feel there are far too many of these taking advantage of how easy it is to claim being trans as a way of accessing female spaces, of course we are told this isn't happening,its just a shame the trans community are enabling this by not speaking out against it

[Niamh.]

I don't actually disagree with this statement, I just don't agree with the way the story was being utilised in the context of this topic particularly.

In regards to Imane - until I hear it from a reputable news source, I will believe what I have been told from the person whose body it is: they were born and assigned female and was raised as such. Nobody gave a **** about Imane competing in the 2020 Olympics when she was knocked out at the Quarter finals.

I care about women's sport and their safety in sport so I will be following this story with interest. It's all well and good taking someones word when it doesn't effect anyone else but if Imane is competing in the female category more than that is necessary

[Beso]

Look at the percentages of trans who commit crime compared to the percentages of females and males who commit crime.I wont even bother looking cause I know its going to be about double, and a high percentage of the crimes will be sexual, and committed against women and children.

[Livia]

Where is the actual evidence she is a biological man?

Not sure any source will be suitable for those who support biological males in women's sport.

[BBXX]

Not sure any source will be suitable for those who support biological males in women's sport.

I don't support biological males in women's sport.

[Nicky91]

Not sure any source will be suitable for those who support biological males in women's sport.

Imane Khelif is a biologically born female


how many times must i keep repeating myself

[Beso]

You do because what you said is not correct. Just ignorant.

No its correct. I've done my maths, and the whole of TIBB knows your numbers tend not to add up.

[Maru]

Women should be able to have a biological female in charge of a rape crisis centre for women.

The root of this for me: ... Can we all just go back to a time when we all spoke for ourselves and stop this being offended for other people nonsense? I think I know what my own interests are... and I don't imagine (well, I should say I know exactly no one...) any actual woman that isn't ideologically possessed that is asking for this type of representation... it's skeevy that other groups that I'd never even heard of prior have more buying power in my life than me...

[Nicky91]

who to believe more in this


news tabloid or actual family who do know her better than anyone else



very difficult




me when i see this forum sinking lower and lower

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d3/b3/13/d3b3130e9badf32693956295ade7979f.gif

[Nicky91]

whom this all started with


that salty butthurt italian loser Miss Angela Carini, whom exposed herself as a hypocrite too of not really having anything against Imane either but i guess the potential for a huge media scandal and the following $$$ were too good to resist lol

[Maru]

who to believe more in this

news tabloid or actual family who do know her better than anyone else

Well we're not going to find out by asking them directly, Nicky :laugh:...

I agree with you that it's unverified.

[Nicky91]

Well we're not going to find out by asking them directly, Nicky :laugh:...

I agree with you that it's unverified.

https://www.skysports.com/boxing/news/12183/13189751/olympics-2024-imane-khelifs-father-defends-his-daughter-and-insists-she-was-born-a-girl

her father went public though, in a interview with Sky Sports

[Glenn.]

No its correct. I've done my maths, and the whole of TIBB knows your numbers tend not to add up.

Yet here we are with no proof of your ignorant comments. Once again

[Crimson Dynamo]

The IOC’s shameful worship at the altar of trans virtue-signaling will get women killed

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2022/01/Piers-Morgan.png?resize=76,69

So now we know.

Imane Khelif, the controversial Algerian boxer who won gold at the Paris
Olympics fighting against women, IS a biological man.

Some of us will be less surprised by this bombshell revelation, in a leaked
medical report to French media, than others.

If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and fights like a duck, it’s
probably a duck.

Anyone who watched the sickening, heart-rending farce of Khelif beating up
on Italy’s Angela Carini back in August knew we weren’t watching a woman.

At the time, people like me, JK Rowling, Elon Musk and Martina Navratilova
called this out as a total disgrace.

Predictably, we were all instantly branded transphobic, and horribly abused
by the trans lobby for daring to suggest Khelif was anything but a natural-
born woman.

But today, we know he’s not, and we were right.

https://nypost.com/2024/11/04/opinion/the-iocs-shameful-worship-at-the-altar-of-trans-virtue-signaling-will-get-women-killed/

[Zizu]

Interesting !

“The IOC and the Algerian Olympic Committee are complicit in endorsing
male violence against women under the guise of public entertainment on the
world’s largest sports stage,” Smith said. “They stood by as women were
subjected to physical assault for spectacle, stripped of safety, fairness, and
their lifetime achievements. All those involved must face swift and serious
consequences.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[BBXX]

The root of this for me: ... Can we all just go back to a time when we all spoke for ourselves...

That would be right-wing conservatives would have to stop butting into the lives of LGBT people. So no, that won't be happening any time soon.

[Maru]

That would be right-wing conservatives would have to stop butting into the lives of LGBT people. So no, that won't be happening any time soon.

I realize it's not the LGBT specifically, but the politics that have hijacked them for their own grift, but they don't have a right to butt into the issues of others, is my point...

[BBXX]

I realize it's not the LGBT specifically, but the politics that have hijacked them for their own grift, but they don't have a right to butt into the issues of others, is my point...

It works both ways though, and by far and away, it's none-LGBT people butting into the issues of LGBT people that happens more.

We can't even have representation in a kids movie without it being called grooming.

[Beso]

Yet here we are with no proof of your ignorant comments. Once again

Do your own research, I'm not your lacky.

[Maru]

It works both ways though, and by far and away, it's none-LGBT people butting into the issues of LGBT people that happens more.

We can't even have representation in a kids movie without it being called grooming.

This is exactly what I mean, though. You're butting in right now into the comments to talk about LGBT issues when the issues I'm concerned with are my own rights, ie women's issues... and you're basically telling me your issues are more important. And that's fair, to you, they are very important obviously... (and should be)

But you're proving also why the busybody behavior is not very conducive to a constructive outcome. I do not want the LGBT* portion involved at all because they're putting their needs over my own.

* The entity itself

[BBXX]

This is exactly what I mean, though. You're butting in right now into the comments to talk about LGBT issues when the issues I'm concerned with are my own rights, ie women's issues... and you're basically telling me your issues are more important. And that's fair, to you, they are very important obviously... (and should be)

But you're proving also why the busybody behavior is not very conducive to a constructive outcome. I do not want the LGBT* portion involved at all because they're putting their needs over my own.

* The entity itself

Transgenderism has been the main topic of this entire thread even though there is no actual reputable evidence of Imane being Transgender.

To say then that I am butting in to discuss LGBT rights when it's about women is a bit unfair. If you want people to just talk about themselves rather than other 'groups' then perhaps start first by levelling that critique at the non LGBT people in this thread rather than me, who is speaking in defence of the anti-trans rhetoric in this thread that exists for no good reason because there is no solid evidence Imane is even trans.

What's the phrase... something about the call coming from inside the house...

[Niamh.]

Transgenderism has been the main topic of this entire thread even though there is no actual reputable evidence of Imane being Transgender.

To say then that I am butting in to discuss LGBT rights when it's about women is a bit unfair. If you want people to just talk about themselves rather than other 'groups' then perhaps start first by levelling that critique at the non LGBT people in this thread rather than me, who is speaking in defence of the anti-trans rhetoric in this thread that exists for no good reason because there is no solid evidence Imane is even trans.

What's the phrase... something about the call coming from inside the house...

I don't think Imane is trans, I think they have a DSD and are probably biologically male but were raised as a girl because that's what they looked like as a baby. I think why trans is being brought into it is because the trans lobby have jumped on this case as a way to legitimise biological males being allowed to compete in the female category.

[Glenn.]

Do your own research, I'm not your lacky.

We both know I’d be wasting my time because what you said, as usual, is complete nonsense.

[BBXX]

I don't think Imane is trans, I think they have a DSD and are probably biologically male but were raised as a girl because that's what they looked like as a baby. I think why trans is being brought into it is because the trans lobby have jumped on this case as a way to legitimise biological males being allowed to compete in the female category.

Trans is being bought into it because people are assuming she's biologically male despite having no evidence.

[Maru]

Transgenderism has been the main topic of this entire thread even though there is no actual reputable evidence of Imane being Transgender.

They were denied in the past and their inclusion was based on a change in policy regarding genetic testing. I do not agree biological men belong in women's sports. That's pretty much it for me.

Newer article on it: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/imane-khelif-genetic-testing-international-boxing-b2641491.html

To say then that I am butting in to discuss LGBT rights when it's about women is a bit unfair. If you want people to just talk about themselves rather than other 'groups' then perhaps start first by levelling that critique at the non LGBT people in this thread rather than me, who is speaking in defence of the anti-trans rhetoric in this thread that exists for no good reason because there is no solid evidence Imane is even trans.

What's the phrase... something about the call coming from inside the house...

Because you responded to my comment, respectfully I responded back. There's not much else to be said... as I had mentioned, there's not many non-LGBT-eccentric women arguing for this. And others have done a better job of arguing the issue, so I don't always feel the need to add the sound of my own voice to things...

[Beso]

We both know I’d be wasting my time because what you said, as usual, is complete nonsense.

Here is a non related statistic...regarding the crimes they commit..

74 percent of the trans prison population are In for rape of women or sexual activity on children..

[Niamh.]

Trans is being bought into it because people are assuming she's biologically male despite having no evidence.

I wouldn't say no evidence

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/#:~:text=We%20wish%20to%20make%20the,Boxing%20Cham pionships%20New%20Delhi%202023.

Both these boxers were found to have the male karyotype XY, couple that with the fact that Imane looks like a man,(look at that photo below, they're whole build is male) lets not sugar coat this, you can surely understand why women would be concerned?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQMGyVfvsCUPYgfitnrVL9de_1bK_nm yOcdA66SM_oAoZ4HTjg5OJax_-_SdaPtON5xrg&usqp=CAU

[BBXX]

I wouldn't say no evidence

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/#:~:text=We%20wish%20to%20make%20the,Boxing%20Cham pionships%20New%20Delhi%202023.

Both these boxers were found to have the male karyotype XY, couple that with the fact that Imane looks like a man,(look at that photo below, they're whole build is male) lets not sugar coat this, you can surely understand why women would be concerned?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQMGyVfvsCUPYgfitnrVL9de_1bK_nm yOcdA66SM_oAoZ4HTjg5OJax_-_SdaPtON5xrg&usqp=CAU

The IBA were stripped of their credentials as the global body for the sport by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) due to its failure to complete reforms on governance, finance and ethical issues.

[Niamh.]

The IBA were stripped of their credentials as the global body for the sport by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) due to its failure to complete reforms on governance, finance and ethical issues.

Yes I'm aware of that. That doesn't mean these tests were falsified though nor does it explain why neither boxer appealed the decisions (Imane did but later withdrew)

[Vicky.]

Women's biggest threat is straight cis biological men... Not trans women.

I would agree with this without the 'cis' part. I don't think it matters if said male people have 'ladybrain' or not

[Jessica.]

Women's biggest threat is straight cis biological men... Not trans women.

So true, I've never felt threatened by a trans or intersex person but I've felt intimidated by straight cis men loads of times throughout my entire life. Usually it's people you know who hurt you too, so if you don't know anyone who's trans or intersex the chance they'll hurt you or even anyone you know is practically zero.

[BBXX]

I would agree with this without the 'cis' part. I don't think it matters if said male people have 'ladybrain' or not

Cis Women are of no interest to trans women and are not a threat. The vast majority just want to be left alone.

[Alf]

What on God's Green Earth is a Cis woman? There's no such thing. There's woman and man. And that's it. You can't just make things up that has no truth and pass it off as fact.

[Jessica.]

What on God's Green Earth is a Cis woman? There's no such thing. There's woman and man. And that's it. You can't just make things up that has no truth and pass it off as fact.

Cis means they were born a woman and stayed a woman, if they're not cis they're trans so are you saying only trans people exist?

[Alf]

Cis means they were born a woman and stayed a woman, if they're not cis they're trans so are you saying only trans people exist?No. I'm saying there's just Woman and Man. That's it. That's nature.

[Jessica.]

No. I'm saying there's just Woman and Man. That's it. That's nature.

What about intersex people? What if they have testes and a uterus?

[Vicky.]

Cis Women are of no interest to trans women and are not a threat.

How do you figure that?

[BBXX]

How do you figure that?

It's just the truth. The idea of trans women being a threat to cis women is just not true, it's like the rhetoric of drag queens being a threat to children - it's scaremongering based on fiction. Trans women are far more likely to be a victim of violence... most of them are probably ****ing scared just walking out the front door because they face abuse constantly.

[Jessica.]

How do you figure that?

There's literally data on it, when it comes to who will harm someone else it's extremely unlikely that a transgender person will harm someone, they are not a threat whatsoever!

[BBXX]

What on God's Green Earth is a Cis woman? There's no such thing. There's woman and man. And that's it. You can't just make things up that has no truth and pass it off as fact.

Cis is a Latin word to mean "on this side" as to say you identify as the same side as you were born. It's literally the antonym of "trans" which means "the other side". The word cisgender has been in use for several decades. Hope this helps.

[Alf]

Cis a Latin word to mean "on this side" as to say you identify as the same side as you were born. It's literally the antonym of "trans" which means "the other side". The word cisgender has been in use for several decades. Hope this helps.Well I'm in my sixth decade and it most certainly didn't exist for the first four.

[Jessica.]

You're more likely to be hurt, robbed, groped etc.
by a cis woman in the lady's room, in a locker room, at the park, in school, everywhere.

[BBXX]

Well I'm in my sixth decade and it most certainly didn't exist for the first four.

Cool. It was first used in 1994.

It's always good to learn something new.

[Alf]

Cool. It was first used in 1994.

It's always good to learn something new.It is, stick around, you'll learn a lot from me.

[BBXX]

It is, stick around, you'll learn a lot from me.

Will do, looking forward to you repaying the favour :)

[Alf]

Will do, looking forward to you repaying the favour :)I like you already.

[Crimson Dynamo]

You're more likely to be hurt, robbed, groped etc.
by a cis woman in the lady's room, in a locker room, at the park, in school, everywhere.

So you should let men in due to this?

Dear God

[Jessica.]

So you should let men in due to this?

Dear God

Everyone should be allowed to be in a space where they are comfortable. If someone is scared of anything happening to them or their kids then maybe they could use the accessible bathroom which only allows one person at a time.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Everyone should be allowed to be in a space where they are comfortable. If someone is scared of anything happening to them or their kids then maybe they could use the accessible bathroom which only allows one person at a time.

Er no

It's not a Biblical utopia

Life isn't motivational posters FFS

[Mystic Mock]

I don't actually disagree with this statement, I just don't agree with the way the story was being utilised in the context of this topic particularly.

In regards to Imane - until I hear it from a reputable news source, I will believe what I have been told from the person whose body it is: they were born and assigned female and was raised as such. Nobody gave a **** about Imane competing in the 2020 Olympics when she was knocked out at the Quarter finals.

Tbf, of course people are going to be more bothered when she wins a Gold medal at the Olympics compared to when she doesn't.

It's like Jannik Sinner in the Tennis after his doping scandal, if he had failed to win the US Open most people wouldn't have batted an eyelid, but because he actually won the tournament it did cause some controversy.

[Mystic Mock]

It works both ways though, and by far and away, it's none-LGBT people butting into the issues of LGBT people that happens more.

We can't even have representation in a kids movie without it being called grooming.

But think of the children, protect the kids.

But seriously I agree with you, I swear that some people see Paedophilia as only an LGBT crime.

[Mystic Mock]

You're more likely to be hurt, robbed, groped etc.
by a cis woman in the lady's room, in a locker room, at the park, in school, everywhere.

I don't believe that biological women are more likely to grope other women compared to Transwomen.

The other two parts I can believe, but women in general are not really likely to go around sexually assaulting people.

[Jessica.]

I don't believe that biological women are more likely to grope other women compared to Transwomen.

The other two parts I can believe, but women in general are not really likely to go around sexually assaulting people.

It's a cold hard FACT, wayyyy more likely than a trans person doing it

[Ninastar]

So true, I've never felt threatened by a trans or intersex person but I've felt intimidated by straight cis men loads of times throughout my entire life. Usually it's people you know who hurt you too, so if you don't know anyone who's trans or intersex the chance they'll hurt you or even anyone you know is practically zero.

https://www.aol.com/2017-10-20-transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom-23250262.html

https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgender-bathroom-sexual-assault-a26168568cc20c2aa6cec9bef50e7c3f

https://x.com/amandavos7/status/1762090962749124995?s=46&t=OmPDwW58cHS_AroNIgXdqA

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/10/29/trans-bathroom-policy-sexual-assault/8568005002/

https://torontosun.com/news/national/study-finds-nearly-45-of-trans-women-inmates-convicted-of-sex-crimes

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1611682182405160961?t=Kv1nsuxwEr3WlpagKYi7jA&s=19

[Jessica.]

https://www.aol.com/2017-10-20-transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom-23250262.html

https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgender-bathroom-sexual-assault-a26168568cc20c2aa6cec9bef50e7c3f

https://x.com/amandavos7/status/1762090962749124995?s=46&t=OmPDwW58cHS_AroNIgXdqA

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/10/29/trans-bathroom-policy-sexual-assault/8568005002/

https://torontosun.com/news/national/study-finds-nearly-45-of-trans-women-inmates-convicted-of-sex-crimes

https://twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1611682182405160961?t=Kv1nsuxwEr3WlpagKYi7jA&s=19

I never said it hasn't happened, I said it's extremely unlikely. Just because it has happened it doesn't mean it's common or likely to happen often, it's still very rare and it's more common for a cis woman to do those things.

[Mystic Mock]

It's a cold hard FACT, wayyyy more likely than a trans person doing it

A biological woman commits more sexual offenses than Transwomen, even though Transwomen scientifically will have a higher sex drive on average?

I mean fair enough if you're correct about that, but I freely admit that I'm surprised.

[Ninastar]

I never said it hasn't happened, I said it's extremely unlikely. Just because it has happened it doesn't mean it's common or likely to happen often, it's still very rare and it's more common for a cis woman to do those things.

I know, and I get that. But I completely disagree that a cis woman is more likely than a trans woman to commit a sex crime.

This is just a UK statistic but I imagine it’s the same results though out the world

[Mystic Mock]

I never said it hasn't happened, I said it's extremely unlikely. Just because it has happened it doesn't mean it's common or likely to happen often, it's still very rare and it's more common for a cis woman to do those things.

Women apparently is one in 243,000 compared to Transwomen being one in 585 for committing sex offenses, according to one of Ninastar's sources.

But regardless, men are the biggest perpetrators of sex crimes anyway, I don't think that anyone can deny that.

[Niamh.]

It's a cold hard FACT, wayyyy more likely than a trans person doing itNo I don't think that's correct Jess. Do you have anything to back that claim up with?

[Jessica.]

I can't get the link right now but I'll post a study I recently read in the morning.

Mock, trans people don't have higher sex drives, and it's not libido that leads to sexual violence. Trans people have their hormone levels checked before being prescribed hrt and are given a safe dosage to take so they'd have healthy hormone levels.

[Liam-]

Trans women are statistically far more likely to be victims of violent and sexual crimes than being perpetrators of them, y’all are being brainwashed

[Ninastar]

Trans women are statistically far more likely to be victims of violent and sexual crimes than being perpetrators of them, y’all are being brainwashed

This doesn’t change the fact that they are still more likely to be sex offenders, than cis men/women

At the end of the day, this all boils down to one issue anyway

Men sexually assaulting women

[Liam-]

Trans women are more likely to be predators that cis men? That’s just wrong I’m afraid

[Mystic Mock]

I can't get the link right now but I'll post a study I recently read in the morning.

Mock, trans people don't have higher sex drives, and it's not libido that leads to sexual violence. Trans people have their hormone levels checked before being prescribed hrt and are given a safe dosage to take so they'd have healthy hormone levels.

This study will definitely be interesting to read through, as I am genuinely curious about it, I do like to have my perception challenged.

I get what you're saying, and obviously you do make some good points tbf as Transwomen are obviously far less likely to be sex offenders versus men.

It's just my perception is that Transwomen are more likely to be predators versus biological women, but I am open to this study that you've read, as I do like to go with facts.

[Mystic Mock]

Trans women are statistically far more likely to be victims of violent and sexual crimes than being perpetrators of them, y’all are being brainwashed

That's probably true tbf (I haven't read the stats) but I'm just genuinely shocked that women are meant to be more likely to be sexual predators than any other group tbh.

[Ninastar]

That's probably true tbf (I haven't read the stats) but I'm just genuinely shocked that women are meant to be more likely to be sexual predators than any other group tbh.

Come on dude you’re smarter than this

[Ninastar]

Trans women are more likely to be predators that cis men? That’s just wrong I’m afraid

I’m glad we can agree that biological men are more likely to be predators

[user104658]

Trans women are more likely to be predators that cis men? That’s just wrong I’m afraid

It's not if you understand what's meant by "more likely"; they are more likely by proportion, not by number. Obviously there are many times more cis men than trans women, so far more women are victimised by cis men, but that's got nothing to do with the proportionate stats.

[Niamh.]

Tbf, of course people are going to be more bothered when she wins a Gold medal at the Olympics compared to when she doesn't.

It's like Jannik Sinner in the Tennis after his doping scandal, if he had failed to win the US Open most people wouldn't have batted an eyelid, but because he actually won the tournament it did cause some controversy.

Back in 2020 these two boxers hadn't been excluded from the Women's World Championship having failed a gender test.

[Beso]

It's not if you understand what's meant by "more likely"; they are more likely by proportion, not by number. Obviously there are many times more cis men than trans women, so far more women are victimised by cis men, but that's got nothing to do with the proportionate stats.

Im surprised you had to type that.:shrug:

[Mystic Mock]

Come on dude you’re smarter than this

I meant that I would be shocked if women are more likely to sexually assault someone compared to Transwomen.

I admittedly worded it poorly.:laugh:

My opinion hasn't really changed on this unless I get evidence that contradicts my viewpoint.

[Vicky.]

I can't get the link right now but I'll post a study I recently read in the morning.


Genuinely interested in this so bumping

[Jessica.]

Genuinely interested in this so bumping

Sorry I still haven't had a chance to go on my PC and find it in my browser history, I've been meaning to but I keep not getting round to it.

[Jessica.]

Basically it was a study about how under reported sexual abuse by females is and that it's around 3 times as prevalent than previously thought. There was another study too with something similar but yeah, I haven't had a chance to fetch them. I'm going to be out all day tomorrow too so not making any promises. :joker:

[Niamh.]

Oh dear. Another 10 years maybe

[Livia]

It's a cold hard FACT, wayyyy more likely than a trans person doing it

I'm dying to see this data and find out where it comes from.

[user104658]

It's a cold hard FACT, wayyyy more likely than a trans person doing it

lol

I can't get the link right now

... lol ...

Trans women are statistically far more likely to be victims of violent and sexual crimes than being perpetrators of them, y’all are being brainwashed

It's true that trans people are statistically more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators of violence, however, that doesn't mean that it can't be true that they (trans women) are also more likely to be perpetrators of violence than general population average and certainly far more likely than cis women.

Also

You cannot (for these metrics) use "trans people" as a blanket grouping, you have to separate trans women and trans men for any accurate numbers, because trans women are more likely to commit a sexually motivated crime than women, while trans men are far LESS likely to commit such an offense (or any violent offence) than cis men.

Which as before, is telling in itself. Rates amount trans women (biological males) correlate with cis men. Rates among trans men (biological females) correlate with cis women.

Whether that's down to actual biological differences, or earlier life gendered socialization, is a totally separate debate and a less clear picture.

[Nicky91]

her father did official interviews during the Paris2024 games


also trans people are against the law in Algeria, so if she were trans, i'd more say she would be in jail, rather than compete in the olympics for her country




it all started because she won over the weak crybaby Angela Carini, well not Imane's problem that Miss Carini is physically among the weaker boxers this particular category, maybe Carini should compete at a different discipline this sport :think:


but yeah blame the muslim, very easy these times :bored:

[Maru]

I can't see how they measure trans as a bonafide demographic (akin to sex) accurately, because even now, most things are measured according to male/female. So that also makes deep comparisons with preexisting statistics very tricky.

We can have a person counted one way statistically pretransition... but somehow we'll have to remove them later on in that population after they transition and ignore key differences in medical profiles? It doesn't change that future studies still count them based on sex, because that is still the most reliable predictor for much of the variables being looked at across studies... because we don't measure things in "character profiles", we measure them biologically. So in that case are we measuring them against other statistics where they're probably counted twice? (lol) It doesn't really work...

I think most of this ends up being pseudo-science because it's drawing up certain conclusions just in the way it is measured. It's very easy to ignore that is a mental health problem, ie a profile but not quite the same category as male/female. Moreover, not all trans people are transitioned in the same way and thus some will present differently. That has major social implications as well because even just small things like that can impact the explanations for differences. Then trying to haphazardly fit all that into a simple box akin to sex (male/female) is very messy. It leans a certain way just based on how it is measured and how it is being compared... and it doesn't account for the things we can't measure, like there will be key details being missed from when they were pretransitioned and not yet identified by anyone as trans... and yet we're supposed to compare those details against their own sex category, which maybe has other people who remain unidentified? That doesn't wash for me...

[Crimson Dynamo]

her father did official interviews during the Paris2024 games


also trans people are against the law in Algeria, so if she were trans, i'd more say she would be in jail, rather than compete in the olympics for her country




it all started because she won over the weak crybaby Angela Carini, well not Imane's problem that Miss Carini is physically among the weaker boxers this particular category, maybe Carini should compete at a different discipline this sport :think:


but yeah blame the muslim, very easy these times :bored:

what even?

[Livia]

her father did official interviews during the Paris2024 games


also trans people are against the law in Algeria, so if she were trans, i'd more say she would be in jail, rather than compete in the olympics for her country




it all started because she won over the weak crybaby Angela Carini, well not Imane's problem that Miss Carini is physically among the weaker boxers this particular category, maybe Carini should compete at a different discipline this sport :think:


but yeah blame the muslim, very easy these times :bored:

Yeah, the biological woman is a weak cry baby.

I'm thoroughly tired of you and your nonsense, Nicky.

[Ninastar]

A genuine interest I have is if there was a boxing competition for anyone of either to enter, what would the gender be of the person who won.

I’m still assuming biological male in cases of physical's sports but stuff like shooting/bow and arrow/disk golf etc etc it wouldn’t be too much of a big deal

Also I would like to see sports that had like an equal number of both genders on a team like say 5 women and 5 men in a football game vs another team of 5 men and 5 women

[Zizu]

A genuine interest I have is if there was a boxing competition for anyone of either to enter, what would the gender be of the person who won.

I’m still assuming biological male in cases of physical's sports but stuff like shooting/bow and arrow/disk golf etc etc it wouldn’t be too much of a big deal

Also I would like to see sports that had like an equal number of both genders on a team like say 5 women and 5 men in a football game vs another team of 5 men and 5 women


They had mixed sex teams in the recent Olympic shooting .. as I recall the girls were better than the guys


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[user104658]

A genuine interest I have is if there was a boxing competition for anyone of either to enter, what would the gender be of the person who won.

I’m still assuming biological male in cases of physical's sports but stuff like shooting/bow and arrow/disk golf etc etc it wouldn’t be too much of a big deal

Also I would like to see sports that had like an equal number of both genders on a team like say 5 women and 5 men in a football game vs another team of 5 men and 5 women

Things that are purely skill based can work.

Anything involving speed, strength or stamina will always be dominated by biological males (to the extent that, realistically, women wouldn't even be competing at the top level).

Combat sports like boxing it wouldn't be interesting at all it would be horrific - serious risk of severe injury or death. It's honestly that simple unfortunately. The combination of the vast difference in upper body strength and bone density.

Mixed teams can and do work in some sports (mixed doubles tennis for example, relays etc)

[Nicky91]

Yeah, the biological woman is a weak cry baby.

I'm thoroughly tired of you and your nonsense, Nicky.

none of Khelif her other opponents had those nose pains like Carini though


and honestly her road to the gold wasn't easy, quite some tough matches for her


so yeah i stick with my opinion on this, Angela Carini should compete at a easier level


and there have been other female boxers whom had defeated Imane Khelif too, like that irish Kellie Harrington

[Cherie]

I’m glad we can agree that biological men are more likely to be predators



and that is the crux, and to expand on that given that biological men can now identify on a whim as trans and some people would want them to have access to female only spaces and they find that acceptable. If someone is genuinely trans I have no issues with them accessing female spaces as long as they are post op, pre op...no I am afraid as there are too many opportunists, and thats not me being a transphobe, its me being practical about my safety just the same as I would be walking on my own at night, and that is my right.

[BBXX]

and that is the crux, and to expand on that given that biological men can now identify on a whim as trans and some people would want them to have access to female only spaces and they find that acceptable.

Do you honestly think straight, biological men who want to harm women will cosplay as a woman to gain access to women's spaces just to assault them though?

If someone is going to break the law and assault a woman, they will do it regardless. The statistics of violence from straight biological men towards women shows that they don't need to pretend to be a woman in order to assault them. They do it anyway. Time and time again.

[Cherie]

Do you honestly think straight, biological men who want to harm women will cosplay as a woman to gain access to women's spaces just to assault them though?

If someone is going to break the law and assault a woman, they will do it regardless. The statistics of violence from straight biological men towards women shows that they don't need to pretend to be a woman in order to assault them. They do it anyway. Time and time again.

Yes, I do, for a range of reasons, to access vulnerable women and children, to intimidate, to prove they can access female spaces, to have an easier time in prison...how many men who have raped women have been placed in womens prisons for instance? and one is too many btw

[BBXX]

Yes, I do, for a range of reasons, to access vulnerable women and children, to intimidate, to prove they can access female spaces, to have an easier time in prison...how many men who have raped women have been placed in womens prisons for instance? and one is too many btw

I don’t, how many fake trans women are in prison, dressing and living like a woman daily to be closer to biological women?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don’t, how many fake trans women are in prison, dressing and living like a woman daily to be closer to biological women?

In the UK, there were 268 transgender prisoners in 2023, which is an increase from 230 in 2022. Of those, 225 reported their legal gender as male and 43 as female.

The number of transgender prisoners in the UK is difficult to calculate, and the actual number is likely higher than what is recorded. Some reasons for this include:

Prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference and are less likely to be counted.

There may be confusion over classification among inmates or officials.

Some prisoners with a gender recognition certificate are not counted as transgender.

[BBXX]

In the UK, there were 268 transgender prisoners in 2023, which is an increase from 230 in 2022. Of those, 225 reported their legal gender as male and 43 as female.

The number of transgender prisoners in the UK is difficult to calculate, and the actual number is likely higher than what is recorded. Some reasons for this include:

Prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference and are less likely to be counted.

There may be confusion over classification among inmates or officials.

Some prisoners with a gender recognition certificate are not counted as transgender.

Thanks, maybe I need another coffee but I can't see from that how many of those transgender prisoners are actually straight, biological males infiltrating as
women in order to gain closer access to women and how many of legitimate transgender women.

I appreciate that women's safety is important, I completely agree it is. What I don't agree with is pretending there is a pandemic of fake transgender females assaulting biological women.

The reason I object is because it does feel sometimes that certain scenarios are blown out of proportion towards a particular demographic that a lot of society doesn't like or understand while other scenarios that are an issue are ignored. It's like people often use it as a fake excuse to malign a group of people they don't like and that's why we should be truthful about actually how much of an issue it actually is.

For example, in the USA the same people who say trans women doesn't be in women's spaces because they are a risk to women are often the same people who say drags queens shouldn't be around children and they're often the same people who object to specific gun legislation despite it actually being a huge threat and a huge killer.

(I am not saying anyone is this thread aligns with that specific example, unless you do and therefore I'd love to know how you measure threat and why energy is put towards one and not the other)

[Cherie]

Thanks, maybe I need another coffee but I can't see from that how many of those transgender prisoners are actually straight, biological males infiltrating as
women in order to gain closer access to women and how many of legitimate transgender women.

I appreciate that women's safety is important, I completely agree it is. What I don't agree with is pretending there is a pandemic of fake transgender females assaulting biological women.


Nobody is saying there is a pandemic, what we are saying is that men are being put in female prisons, men are accessing female spaces, men are participating in womens sport and that is not acceptable, and if you say you feel womens safety is important, what would you do about men accessing female spaces

[BBXX]

[/B]

Nobody is saying there is a pandemic, what we are saying is that men are being put in female prisons, men are accessing female spaces, men are participating in womens sport and that is not acceptable, and if you say you feel womens safety is important, what would you do about men accessing female spaces

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

How many would you say it would be for it to be a problem?

[Zizu]

How many would you say it would be for it to be a problem?


ONE


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Cherie]

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

There won't be figures because of self ID and how sensitive a subject it is very few people are going to put their head above the parapet and say that a person claiming to be a transwoman is not mainly due to fear off losing their jobs, there have been a few high profile cases of men who raped women prior to transitioning being placed in womens prisons, I dont know how may women need to be a risk for you to take is seriously ...1 2..10...20?

https://news.sky.com/story/transgender-butcher-admits-abducting-and-sexually-abusing-schoolgirl-12883405

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64796926

A double rapist who claimed to be transgender while awaiting trial...does that not raise alarm bells?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993
It is lawful for transgender women to be housed in female jails in England and Wales, the High Court has ruled.

A female prisoner, known as FDJ, had challenged the Ministry of Justice over aspects of the policy.

She claimed she had been sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner but the MoJ did not say whether it accepted this alleged incident had taken place.

The judge ruled barring all trans women from female prisons would ignore their right to live as their chosen gender.

Women's prisons can house inmates who were born male but identify as female, regardless of whether they have gone through any physical transformation or have obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The MoJ argued the policy pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".

The claimant in the case, FDJ, had said she was sexually assaulted in prison in 2017 by a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate (GRC), who had convictions for serious sexual offences.

The claimant's lawyers argued that placing transgender women in the female prisons exposed others to higher risk, citing a claim that transgender inmates were five times more likely than non-transgender prisoners to commit a sexual assault on a non-transgender prisoner.

[BBXX]

How many would you say it would be for it to be a problem?

How many school shootings would you say need to happen for it to be a problem, and would you, a Trump supporter, support the legislation to ban guns due to them being the biggest killer of kids in the USA?

[Crimson Dynamo]

ONE


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Indeed

1

[user104658]

I agree biological men who are not transgender should not be in women's spaces. I just don't think it's as widespread an issue as being made out. I don't think there are many none-transgender people pretending to be women just to access women's spaces. And I am yet to see any actual figures of biological men who are not transgender and who are pretending to be transgender women that explain why it's such a big issue.

To put something as simply as possible:

A pillar of effective safeguarding is in identifying and mitigating potential issues before they become a larger issue, NOT a "wait and see" attitude and then trying to stuff the cat back in the bag after there's evidence of a safeguarding problem.

There are plenty of examples of it happening, thus, it will continue to happen and safeguarding considerations need to be made. That might be a blanket ban, it might be something else, but the attitude that "NAH you're over-reacting we don't want to think about that at all 'cos it's OFFENSIVE" is immature and not (or shouldn't be) any part of a rational adult discussion of any issue.

[Vicky.]

ONE


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Indeed

1

Agreed.

[Niamh.]

I don’t, how many fake trans women are in prison, dressing and living like a woman daily to be closer to biological women?

How would you even prove someone isn't really trans? Regardless, it doesn't matter if someone is really trans or not, if they're male in all the physical sense of the word, they shouldn't be in female spaces full stop. Women's rights matter. Women have the right to female only spaces when they're in a state of undress or are vulnerable.

[Glenn.]

How many school shootings would you say need to happen for it to be a problem, and would you, a Trump supporter, support the legislation to ban guns due to them being the biggest killer of kids in the USA?

Notice how he ignores this.

[Crimson Dynamo]

How would you even prove someone isn't really trans? Regardless, it doesn't matter if someone is really trans or not, if they're male in all the physical sense of the word, they shouldn't be in female spaces full stop. Women's rights matter. Women have the right to female only spaces when they're in a state of undress or are vulnerable.

The fact that it is just a feeling is precisely why it is being abused by prisoners

They know they cant fool people and take advantage of it

[Ninastar]

I don’t really understand the point of bringing up another of Americas failures in reference to this. It’s something that has nothing to do with the other

Why not bring up the billionaires using their jets and hurting the ecosystem

Or immigrants who came to the states illegally and sexually assault/murder people

Or our failure to take proper care of veterans and homeless families

[BBXX]

How would you even prove someone isn't really trans? Regardless, it doesn't matter if someone is really trans or not, if they're male in all the physical sense of the word, they shouldn't be in female spaces full stop. Women's rights matter. Women have the right to female only spaces when they're in a state of undress or are vulnerable.

I do understand this but I also know that people will piggy back off this with their own prejustice and so even if someone has had all the operations and is taking all the medicine, it still wouldn’t be enough, so that is why I think it’s a more complex issue that needs consideration for all parties involved.

I do appreciate your point and the earlier points completely I just think we need to be careful because while women deserve to feel safe, so do trans people and creating a narrative that trans people are a risk to society when it ain’t quite true is a threat to their life.

[Cherie]

I do understand this but I also know that people will piggy back off this with their own prejustice and so even if someone has had all the operations and is taking all the medicine, it still wouldn’t be enough, so that is why I think it’s a more complex issue that needs consideration for all parties involved.

I do appreciate your point and the earlier points completely I just think we need to be careful because while women deserve to feel safe, so do trans people and creating a narrative that trans people are a risk to society when it ain’t quite true is a threat to their life.

sorry I have to come back again on this, and it is inexplicable why the trans community are not more vocal about the people who are using trans self id for their own ends, its not about trans people, its about MEN abusing the system, not sure what there is for people to get their heads around Isla Bryson is not a transwoman HE is a MAN who used the system that is currently in place for his own benefit

[Livia]

none of Khelif her other opponents had those nose pains like Carini though


and honestly her road to the gold wasn't easy, quite some tough matches for her


so yeah i stick with my opinion on this, Angela Carini should compete at a easier level


and there have been other female boxers whom had defeated Imane Khelif too, like that irish Kellie Harrington

Don't waste your time or mine by responding to me anymore.

[Ninastar]

Don't waste your time or mine by responding to me anymore.

I feel like this only encourages it

[Livia]

How many school shootings would you say need to happen for it to be a problem, and would you, a Trump supporter, support the legislation to ban guns due to them being the biggest killer of kids in the USA?

Gun ownership is written into the constitution if the USA. Not sure why you're bringing up the constitutional rights of another country to embroider your argument. Mexico and Brazil both outdo the USA in firearms deaths but no one ever mentions that. I wonder why...?

[Livia]

I feel like this only encourages it

What's the answer? Maybe just ignoring him?

[BBXX]

sorry I have to come back again on this, and it is inexplicable why the trans community are not more vocal about the people who are using trans self id for their own ends, its not about trans people, its about MEN abusing the system, not sure what there is for people to get their heads around Isla Bryson is not a transwoman HE is a MAN who used the system that is currently in place for his own benefit

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

[Livia]

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

Are you American, BBXX?

[BBXX]

Are you American, BBXX?

No, why do you ask?

[Livia]

No, why do you ask?

Because in this thread you've spoken about gun deaths in the USA and used an example of Republicans attacking Democrats.

[BBXX]

Gun ownership is written into the constitution if the USA. Not sure why you're bringing up the constitutional rights of another country to embroider your argument. Mexico and Brazil both outdo the USA in firearms deaths but no one ever mentions that. I wonder why...?

I wasn't aware the conversation purely centred around the UK, particularly as the conversation has centred mainly on a worldwide sporting competition and a Boxer from Algeria.

I bought it up because it's a good example of something posing a risk, yet the rights of the citizens is still given priority. My point was many people who support gun ownership, despite it being the leading cause of death amongst children in the USA, will not support trans women being in women's spaces because it is a risk to women despite the risk they speak about being incredibly low. That doesn't make sense... and goes some way to prove that for many (not saying you or others on this thread) they don't actually care about the risk to women, they just don't like Trans people.

And it's that kind of attitude which is why it's risky linking criminal cis men pretending to be trans to actual trans people, which many people do.

[Livia]

I wasn't aware the conversation purely centred around the UK, particularly as the conversation has centred mainly on a worldwide sporting competition and a Boxer from Algeria.

I bought it up because it's a good example of something posing a risk, yet the rights of the citizens is still given priority. My point was many people who support gun ownership, despite it being the leading cause of death amongst children in the USA, will not support trans women being in women's spaces because it is a risk to women despite the risk they speak about being incredibly low. That doesn't make sense... and goes some way to prove that for many (not saying you or others on this thread) they don't actually care about the risk to women, they just don't like Trans people.

And it's that kind of attitude which is why it's risky linking criminal cis men pretending to be trans to actual trans people, which many people do.

Fine. Just wondered by you wouldn't use examples of UK legislation. Nothing about this story us connected to the USA. Not the boxers and not the Olympics in question.

For the record, I have no problem with trans people. I have a problem with self-identification. It was always going to cause problems and give an advantage to abusers and at the same time make the lives of genuine trans people much harder.

[Glenn.]

I wasn't aware the conversation purely centred around the UK, particularly as the conversation has centred mainly on a worldwide sporting competition and a Boxer from Algeria.

I bought it up because it's a good example of something posing a risk, yet the rights of the citizens is still given priority. My point was many people who support gun ownership, despite it being the leading cause of death amongst children in the USA, will not support trans women being in women's spaces because it is a risk to women despite the risk they speak about being incredibly low. That doesn't make sense... and goes some way to prove that for many (not saying you or others on this thread) they don't actually care about the risk to women, they just don't like Trans people.

And it's that kind of attitude which is why it's risky linking criminal cis men pretending to be trans to actual trans people, which many people do.

Amen

[Crimson Dynamo]

Khelif's gold under scrutiny once again as feminist group complains

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gb3NLP1bwAIxwpN?format=jpg&name=small

Women’s rights group ICONS says Imane Khelif’s 🇩🇿 Olympic gold medal 🥇
“should be withdrawn” after medical report claims Algerian boxer suffers from
5-alpha reductase deficiency, a sexual development disorder found in genetic
males.

https://x.com/thbharatcurrent/status/1854864218463322192

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1149933/khelifs-gold-under-scrutiny-once-again

[Nicky91]

Khelif's gold under scrutiny once again as feminist group complains

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gb3NLP1bwAIxwpN?format=jpg&name=small

Women’s rights group ICONS says Imane Khelif’s 🇩🇿 Olympic gold medal 🥇
“should be withdrawn” after medical report claims Algerian boxer suffers from
5-alpha reductase deficiency, a sexual development disorder found in genetic
males.

https://x.com/thbharatcurrent/status/1854864218463322192

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1149933/khelifs-gold-under-scrutiny-once-again

Imane Khelif is a biologically born female


how many more times do i need to repeat myself :mad:

[Ninastar]

What's the answer? Maybe just ignoring him?

I wish you could block ppl on here

[user104658]

How many school shootings would you say need to happen for it to be a problem, and would you, a Trump supporter, support the legislation to ban guns due to them being the biggest killer of kids in the USA?

Gun ownership is written into the constitution if the USA.

Indeed and I think the issue of firearms in the US illustrates quite clearly what I was talking about; there's this idea that we need "loads of evidence" of the risks associated with male-bodied people in women's spaces in order to take safeguarding action... that "if that happens" action can then be taken.

When in reality, we know fine well the risks posed by males to women and girls, and we (the world) have vast experience of human actions and psychology to know that it would be very odd if predatory individuals didn'y take advantage of loopholes in access.

...and (to go back to the US/guns comparison) we have NUMEROUS extremely clear examples of how much harder it is to "un-do something later" rather than taking a proper minute to fully assess the safety implications in the first place. "We'll just hope for the best, forge ahead and think about it later if there's a problem" is not what will happen. If full access is given by law and there does turn out to be a huge safeguarding concern, it'll be very hard to address, and will probably never be fully addressed, or at the very least not before significant harm has been done.

[Ammi]

…just an update on the original thread/story…


Imane Khelif: IOC confirms Olympic boxing champion launching legal action over medical allegations…

Imane Khelif, the boxer who won Olympic gold amid a gender eligibility row, is taking legal action over media reports in France allegedly detailing her leaked medical records, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) has said.

The boxer took gold in the women's welterweight competition at this summer's Games in Paris amid huge controversy after the International Boxing Association (IBA) said the Algerian had been disqualified from last year's World Championships for failing gender eligibility criteria.

Khelif's first opponent in Paris, Italian fighter Angela Carini, signalled she could not continue with their bout 46 seconds in, saying she "had never felt a punch like this".

Khelif filed a legal complaint with the French authorities over the online abuse and harassment she was subjected to during the Games, and the IOC said on Wednesday she was now also taking action over new reports which emerged in France earlier this week.

It also said it was "saddened" by the abuse Khelif had received since her appearance in Paris.


"We understand that Imane Khelif has taken legal action against individuals who commented on her situation during the Olympic Games Paris 2024, and is also preparing a lawsuit in response to the latest reporting," an IOC spokesperson said.

"The IOC will not comment while legal action is ongoing or on media reports about unverified documents whose origin cannot be confirmed."

The statement pointed out Khelif had been competing in women's boxing "for many years", including at the previous Games in Tokyo as well as IBA-sanctioned events.

The IBA was stripped of recognition by the IOC last year over governance failures. That meant it was the IOC which ran - and set the entry criteria for - the Olympic boxing tournament in Paris.

The IOC statement added: "All the athletes who participated in the boxing tournament at the Olympic Games Paris 2024 complied with the competition's eligibility and entry regulations, together with all the applicable medical regulations enacted by the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit (PBU).

"As with previous Olympic boxing competitions, the gender and age of the athletes were based on their passport details."

The IOC said the same rules had applied during the qualification period. Its statement concluded: "The IOC is committed to protecting the human rights of all athletes who have taken part in the Olympic Games as per the Olympic Charter, the IOC Code of Ethics and the IOC Strategic Framework on Human Rights. The IOC is saddened by the abuse that Imane Khelif is currently receiving."

Khelif said after winning gold: "I am fully qualified to take part in this competition - I am a woman.

"I was born a woman, I've lived as a woman and I've competed as a woman. There's no doubt that there are enemies of success and that gives my success a special taste because of these attacks."


https://www.skysports.com/boxing/news/12183/13249411/imane-khelif-ioc-confirms-olympic-boxing-champion-launching-legal-action-over-medical-allegations

[Nicky91]

she just is one of those women who looks more masculine than others, so i'd also place her into the category of women's boxing, with more women who also look very masculine, who got a lot of muscle, like that it would be a lot fairer for everyone i think


but Imane Khelif is and always has been female




i mean Navratilova also always has been female, while also looking questionably masculine, and not very feminine at all



in my nation you also got a couple

Lucia Rijker, Nouchka Fontijn, Sherida Spitse


whom got very masculine traits, lots of muscle, the former two of which who also were boxers, and the latter who has been a international at our women's football team


to name a couple of examples, sooo to say Imane Khelif is trans is a insult


not every woman looks like a disney princess or social media influencer honestly


no offense of course

[Nicky91]

the IBA has been one vile organisation honestly, under the regime of Umar Kremlev

[user104658]

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

I don't actually particularly disagree with any of what you've said here in principle -- all I would really say is, the politics of the issue (public discourse) should not affect, nor play into in any way, the actual discussion of safeguarding, policy and lawmaking around the issue; people who actually understand these issues should be properly assessing it in a reasonable and balanced way not subject to the often-explosive emotion that comes from both angles (and crucially, they must be allowed to be, without being subject to threats and intimidation either physical or to their careers).

That's not happening and that's not just on one group.

[Ninastar]

Fine. Just wondered by you wouldn't use examples of UK legislation. Nothing about this story us connected to the USA. Not the boxers and not the Olympics in question.

For the record, I have no problem with trans people. I have a problem with self-identification. It was always going to cause problems and give an advantage to abusers and at the same time make the lives of genuine trans people much harder.

I agree with all of this.

It’s not just a simple issue of letting trans women into women only safe spaces…. It’s about trying to keep cis women safe.

I haven’t met a single person who agrees with this that hates trans people. I’ve even met a trans people who said this (she also said that she as a trans woman would have an advantage over a cis female, despite having taking hormones for years)

I’m not saying that there aren’t bigots who just use these opinions to try and hurt trans people. We all know that. But we also know that there are men out there who can literally just say “I identify as a woman” and enter cis female safe spaces without warning or care

[BBXX]

Fine. Just wondered by you wouldn't use examples of UK legislation. Nothing about this story us connected to the USA. Not the boxers and not the Olympics in question.

For the record, I have no problem with trans people. I have a problem with self-identification. It was always going to cause problems and give an advantage to abusers and at the same time make the lives of genuine trans people much harder.

They were just examples that came to mind, probably because I read more about US politics than I do UK stuff.

I am sure you do, and I do think your worry is legitimate, but I also worry about giving ammunition to bigots for issues that aren't as big as they're made out to be because I see it happen time and time again. It's a very nuanced subject and I respect the opinion on everyone I have discussed this with here today. It's too complicated and difficult to not.

[Crimson Dynamo]

They were just examples that came to mind, probably because I read more about US politics than I do UK stuff.

I am sure you do, and I do think your worry is legitimate, but I also worry about giving ammunition to bigots for issues that aren't as big as they're made out to be because I see it happen time and time again. It's a very nuanced subject and I respect the opinion on everyone I have discussed this with here today. It's too complicated and difficult to not.

The First Minister of Scotland lost her job over this "issues that aren't as big as they're made out to be "

and it was a big feature in Harris losing so Hugely in the USA

“Crazy liberal Kamala is for they/them, president Trump is for you,” declares
one Harris-Walz attack ad airing in the battleground states. Another simply
proclaims: “No men in girls’ sports.”

USA voters agreed

[BBXX]

The First Minister of Scotland lost her job over this "issues that aren't as big as they're made out to be "

and it was a big feature in Harris losing so Hugely in the USA

“Crazy liberal Kamala is for they/them, president Trump is for you,” declares
one Harris-Walz attack ad airing in the battleground states. Another simply
proclaims: “No men in girls’ sports.”

USA voters agreed

I am yet to see solid evidence of men pretending to be women and then attacking women on a widespread level. That is what I mean by it not being as big as it's being made out to be.

[Cherie]

As I said it's a very complex issue. I do understand your point, but also in another respect, why is it up to trans people to disavow the activity on criminals using their identity as a gateway to be a criminal? If I pretended to be a Republican before attacking a Democrat, is it up to Republicans specifically to speak about it? Or if I attacked someone and claimed it was a religious-led attack despite being atheist? I am not sure.

Secondly, shining a spotlight that is not a widespread issue creates a very real threat to legitimate trans people, so I do understand. Some people will very much blur the lines between the two.

There are many times bigots use negative association with a certain demographic as a bargaining chip to try and prove their own prejudice as truth. For instance, if a gay man is caught being a paedophile, there will be many, many people using one incident to say "See... I told you so". It happens all the time. Hell, I have literally read it on here. And so it's very risky for a marginalised minority to shine a spotlight on something that many people will associate with their identity even if it is unrelated.

I hope I explained that okay.

Its not just up to trans people, women raise this issue all the time but are called TERFs, if the trans community allied with women it might make the issue more acceptable to discuss...just a thought, the issues affects women and trans women in the main so they should be on board with shining a light on the abuse of self ID by men

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://x.com/piersmorgan/status/1928502076440526968

Finally, common sense prevails. Of course, Khelif can always take the test, but
that, I suspect, would reveal an uncomfortable truth.

BREAKING: World Boxing to introduce mandatory sex testing for its competitions.

It means Imane Khelif won't be able to take part in next month's Eindhoven Cup. Part of the World Boxing statement below...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GsNhOgbWgAE-QIo?format=png&name=small

[arista]

[BREAKING: World Boxing to introduce mandatory sex testing for its competitions.]


Yes, about time.

[Cherie]

Fair

[Mystic Mock]

she just is one of those women who looks more masculine than others, so i'd also place her into the category of women's boxing, with more women who also look very masculine, who got a lot of muscle, like that it would be a lot fairer for everyone i think


but Imane Khelif is and always has been female




i mean Navratilova also always has been female, while also looking questionably masculine, and not very feminine at all



in my nation you also got a couple

Lucia Rijker, Nouchka Fontijn, Sherida Spitse


whom got very masculine traits, lots of muscle, the former two of which who also were boxers, and the latter who has been a international at our women's football team


to name a couple of examples, sooo to say Imane Khelif is trans is a insult


not every woman looks like a disney princess or social media influencer honestly


no offense of course

Don't forget a Korean Actress.

I don't know how they find them in that country, but beautiful women seem to pop onto their screens at a high volume.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

What happens if the test proves that she's Intersex?

[Zizu]

What happens if the test proves that she's Intersex?


Loads of people are into sex …

[emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mystic Mock]

Loads of people are into sex …

[emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:joker:

[Niamh.]

What happens if the test proves that she's Intersex?

Intersex people are still either male or female

[Nicky91]

if i were Imane right now, i'd just retire my career, since that is what those trolls want


:idc:

[Mystic Mock]

Intersex people are still either male or female

I mean what would happen if she's an Intersex female Biologically, does she still compete in the women's side of the Sport?

[Niamh.]

I mean what would happen if she's an Intersex female Biologically, does she still compete in the women's side of the Sport?

I assume so although that seems unlikely considering according to AIBA Imane already failed one of these tests and had been stopped from competing in the female category

[Mystic Mock]

I assume so although that seems unlikely considering according to AIBA Imane already failed one of these tests and had been stopped from competing in the female category

If that happens again then her Olympic gold needs to be given to the second place person.

[BBXX]

If that happens again then her Olympic gold needs to be given to the second place person.

She won that through a competition in which she was allowed to enter and play as a woman because she the Olympic rules stated at the time you can enter as your gender identity, so really anything that comes after bears no relation to her Olympic win.

[Cherie]

She won that through a competition in which she was allowed to enter and play as a woman because she the Olympic rules stated at the time you can enter as your gender identity, so really anything that comes after bears no relation to her Olympic win.

Shameful decision

[Zizu]

Shameful decision


The whole thing is disgraceful


All the young women who have devoted their lives to sport then a few young guys come along and win all the events as the girls simply cant compete .

The guys are also setting new records that no young women will EVER get close to

Its madness


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mystic Mock]

She won that through a competition in which she was allowed to enter and play as a woman because she the Olympic rules stated at the time you can enter as your gender identity, so really anything that comes after bears no relation to her Olympic win.

Tbf she might pass the test yet.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Tbf she might pass the test yet.

The fact that this boxer refuses to take the tests rather suggests a certain outcome..

[Zizu]

The whole thing is disgraceful


All the young women who have devoted their lives to sport then a few young guys come along and win all the events as the girls simply cant compete .

The guys are also setting new records that no young women will EVER get close to

Its madness


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://x.com/riley_gaines_/status/1928964463249547754?s=46
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250601/5b061d4d827ca5e552a69eb312584c31.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://x.com/riley_gaines_/status/1928964463249547754?s=46
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250601/5b061d4d827ca5e552a69eb312584c31.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

saw that today

:clap1:

[Cherie]

Tbf she might pass the test yet.

Er not a hope, already been tested and didn't pass so....

[Cherie]

saw that today

:clap1:

About time too, the girls will be called names though and the ...'boy' will be applauded by some as progress

[Crimson Dynamo]

What am I supposed to do? Go and play with the men? Because I don't feel safe playing there. And all of my team-mates want me here."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cx2e0l5gr27o

The BBC ladies and gentlemen..

This boxing decision is important

[Mystic Mock]

Goal Diggers FC?:laugh2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Piers Morgan
Piersmorgan
·
50m
The biology-denying woke brigade abused and shamed me for saying it was
outrageous and dangerous for Khelif to be beating up women at the Olympics.
I’m ready for their apology, but won’t hold my breath.

---------------------------
🚨A blood test leaked by Olympic press committee member Alan Abrahamson confirms that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif is male.

The test was conducted in 2023 at the request of the IBA, and resulted in
Khelif being disqualified from the women's world boxing championship in New
Delhi.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GsYYTa5W8AAFuSz?format=png&name=small

[Livia]

What am I supposed to do? Go and play with the men? Because I don't feel safe playing there. And all of my team-mates want me here."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cx2e0l5gr27o

The BBC ladies and gentlemen..

This boxing decision is important

Yeah, typical BBC. "But I don't feel safe playing with men!" No, neither do we.

[Niamh.]

She won that through a competition in which she was allowed to enter and play as a woman because she the Olympic rules stated at the time you can enter as your gender identity, so really anything that comes after bears no relation to her Olympic win.

The whole reason for seperate categories in Sport is because of sex based differences though so allowing someone to compete based on how they identify is unfair and dangerous to biological women. Whether it was allowed or not women lost out unfairly and that should be rectified

[Livia]

The whole reason for seperate categories in Sport is because of sex based differences though so allowing someone to compete based on how they identify is unfair and dangerous to biological women. Whether it was allowed or not women lost out unfairly and that should be rectified

I agree 100%. The Olympic committee was wrong to allow this in order to make themselves appear all cuddly and inclusive... except to women, of course. I see the next Olympics being very different, or at least I hope so.

[Niamh.]

I agree 100%. The Olympic committee was wrong to allow this in order to make themselves appear all cuddly and inclusive... except to women, of course. I see the next Olympics being very different, or at least I hope so.

I still feel so bad for that Italian boxer, she couldn't even point out the unfairness of it without being shamed and forced to pretend she was wrong

[Livia]

I still feel so bad for that Italian boxer, she couldn't even point out the unfairness of it without being shamed and forced to pretend she was wrong

Yes, and it wasn't a pleasant watch, was it. It was brutal and unfair. Thank goodness this has finally been sorted in favour of women.

[Cherie]

The IOC should be sacked for that decision, using woman as collateral damage in their quest to be inclusive, shame on them

It will always be a tainted Gold Medal however people spin it

[BBXX]

The whole reason for seperate categories in Sport is because of sex based differences though so allowing someone to compete based on how they identify is unfair and dangerous to biological women. Whether it was allowed or not women lost out unfairly and that should be rectified

I understand that and the reasons, I'm just pointing out she competed in line with rules and so the Gold medal should stand regardless. She didn't mislead anyone or lie, she competed in the way the Olympics allowed her to.

[Niamh.]

I understand that and the reasons, I'm just pointing out she competed in line with rules and so the Gold medal should stand regardless. She didn't mislead anyone or lie, she competed in the way the Olympics allowed her to.The IOC are the ones to blame for sure

[Cherie]

I understand that and the reasons, I'm just pointing out she competed in line with rules and so the Gold medal should stand regardless. She didn't mislead anyone or lie, she competed in the way the Olympics allowed her to.

Well it was a cheat win, enabled by the IOC at least the WBO had to good sense to ban Khalif, why that wasn't good enough for the IOC is anyones guess

There was talk of law suits...did anything come to pass on those?

Just had a look Khalif filed a criminal case for cyberbulling against Elon Musk and JK Rowling

[user104658]

I understand that and the reasons, I'm just pointing out she competed in line with rules and so the Gold medal should stand regardless. She didn't mislead anyone or lie, she competed in the way the Olympics allowed her to.

I feel like you're so close to the point and whole crux of the debate with exactly this, though.

...the world is a big place, with a LOT of people in it, and where there are gaps in the rules (and in legal legislation) that can be exploited with nefarious intent (or even just personal gain/glory) there will be people who will do that. It's not MOST people, most people are not predatory, most people have a sense of fairness, but some don't. A small number of sportspeople who realistically are not competing fairly, will still compete "because the rules say it's allowed". A small number of predatory individuals will exploit access to women's spaces, because they can. It's a small number, most have genuine reasons, but that doesn't matter... where the law allows it, there are people who will exploit it, it's not even a "might".

And this is why feelings and righteousness need to be taken out of the equation and the decisions that are made need to be controlled at rules/legislation level (whether that's sports or women's refuges), and made sensibly with safeguarding (or sporting fairness, in this example) as the primary consideration. Not individual feelings.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It was odd that the boxer and the trainers are of course, Muslim and as we know women have a particular place in that religious set up

Witness the other day when MMA star Khabib Nurmagomedov refused to shake hands with the star CBS Sports female presenter but did with her male presenters live on tv is a humiliating act

Yet they were happy to do this?

:think:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GsatNOPWYAAq2dW?format=jpg&name=small

[BBXX]

Well it was a cheat win, enabled by the IOC at least the WBO had to good sense to ban Khalif, why that wasn't good enough for the IOC is anyones guess

There was talk of law suits...did anything come to pass on those?

Just had a look Khalif filed a criminal case for cyberbulling against Elon Musk and JK Rowling

You are allowed an opinion on if an organisations rules/entry requirements are fair or not, however that opinion doesn't mean anything other than what it is.

You can call it a cheat win, just because it's your opinion is that she shouldn't have taken part, but it doesn't mean it is. It doesn't change reality.

That's facts are she was eligible to participate. She participated. She won, this time. Unlike last Olympics when she also participated and was knocked out and nobody even noticed.

[BBXX]

I feel like you're so close to the point and whole crux of the debate with exactly this, though.

...the world is a big place, with a LOT of people in it, and where there are gaps in the rules (and in legal legislation) that can be exploited with nefarious intent (or even just personal gain/glory) there will be people who will do that. It's not MOST people, most people are not predatory, most people have a sense of fairness, but some don't. A small number of sportspeople who realistically are not competing fairly, will still compete "because the rules say it's allowed". A small number of predatory individuals will exploit access to women's spaces, because they can. It's a small number, most have genuine reasons, but that doesn't matter... where the law allows it, there are people who will exploit it, it's not even a "might".

And this is why feelings and righteousness need to be taken out of the equation and the decisions that are made need to be controlled at rules/legislation level (whether that's sports or women's refuges), and made sensibly with safeguarding (or sporting fairness, in this example) as the primary consideration. Not individual feelings.

I'm not talking about feelings and righteousness. You are.

I am working off of fact - the Olympic Committee rules were you can take part in line with your gender identity. She did.

Can I just remind you that regardless of any hormonal anomaly, she was assigned female at birth and raised as a female. She has female on her birth certificate and always has done, she has female on her passport and always has done. So she participated as a female.

I am sorry to say you are the one letting your feelings get in the way of actual reality.

It's so funny that you support the recent legislation here in the UK, where a woman is based on the sex you are assigned at birth because of biology, and then when someone is assigned female at birth and is raised a female and lived as a female and is and always has been legally a female, and so competes as a female in sporting events because of all of that, suddenly she's not a woman and is in fact taking advantage of a loophole to access women's spaces.

Make it make sense.

[user104658]

I'm not talking about feelings and righteousness. You are.

I am working off of fact - the Olympic Committee rules were you can take part in line with your gender identity. She did.

Can I just remind you that regardless of any hormonal anomaly, she was assigned female at birth and raised as a female. She has female on her birth certificate and always has done, she has female on her passport and always has done. So she participated as a female.

I am sorry to say you are the one letting your feelings get in the way of actual reality.

It's so funny that you support the recent legislation here in the UK, where a woman is based on the sex you are assigned at birth because of biology, and then when someone is assigned female at birth and is raised a female and lived as a female and is and always has been legally a female, and so competes as a female in sporting events because of all of that, suddenly she's not a woman and is in fact taking advantage of a loophole to access women's spaces.

Make it make sense.

No the reality would be that if allowing transgender individuals to compete in women's sporting events creates a disproportionately skewed competitive field (which it categorically does for any speed/strength based sport, denial of this is straight up gaslighting that I reject entirely), then failing to have legislation in place that prevents this from happening and preserves sporting fairness in favour of being inclusive of a very small percentage of people ... the rational choice is to have that legislation in place.

Just as the rational choice is to place real safeguarding considerations at the forefront of discussions around women's spaces ahead of inclusion and individualism.

I'm not denying that she took part because the rules were that she could take part, and I agree that this was a failing of those responsible for having those rules in place. The rules around all of this have been unclear and incorrect, which is unfair for everyone. I would point out, though, that there has been (and still is) a vast amount of very aggressive campaigning involved in preventing those rules from being altered, LONG after there were clear competitive issues... and again, a denial that these issues even existed that quite blatantly amount to openly gaslighting in favour of inclusivity.

I will admit that I'm not 100% up to date on this specific example, the available information is clear as mud ranging from her being biologically male and incorrectly assigned female at birth, to biologically female with a hormonal issue that triggered male puberty, to born male and full-blown corruption / deliberate fudging of official documents. I suspect the truth (as ever) lies somewhere in the grey area. It's not really relevant though, I'm (being completely frank here) not all that interested in individual examples, so much as the correct decisions being made on a macro level. Fringe examples of inclusivity for one individual does not and never should come before general, sensible fairness practices and safety. It's a bizarre world that's allowed this to happen so often.

[BBXX]

No the reality would be that if allowing transgender individuals to compete in women's sporting events creates a disproportionately skewed competitive field (which it categorically does for any speed/strength based sport, denial of this is straight up gaslighting that I reject entirely), then failing to have legislation in place that prevents this from happening and preserves sporting fairness in favour of being inclusive of a very small percentage of people ... the rational choice is to have that legislation in place.

Just as the rational choice is to place real safeguarding considerations at the forefront of discussions around women's spaces ahead of inclusion and individualism.

I'm not denying that she took part because the rules were that she could take part, and I agree that this was a failing of those responsible for having those rules in place. The rules around all of this have been unclear and incorrect, which is unfair for everyone. I would point out, though, that there has been (and still is) a vast amount of very aggressive campaigning involved in preventing those rules from being altered, LONG after there were clear competitive issues... and again, a denial that these issues even existed that quite blatantly amount to openly gaslighting in favour of inclusivity.

I will admit that I'm not 100% up to date on this specific example, the available information is clear as mud ranging from her being biologically male and incorrectly assigned female at birth, to biologically female with a hormonal issue that triggered male puberty, to born male and full-blown corruption / deliberate fudging of official documents. I suspect the truth (as ever) lies somewhere in the grey area. It's not really relevant though, I'm (being completely frank here) not all that interested in individual examples, so much as the correct decisions being made on a macro level. Fringe examples of inclusivity for one individual does not and never should come before general, sensible fairness practices and safety. It's a bizarre world that's allowed this to happen so often.

Well she isn't trans, she's from a country where it would be illegal to be so. She's lived her entire life as a female and is legally that after having been assigned it at birth.

Regarding the statement that allowing trans women to compete creates a disproportionate competition... sometimes, yes. many other times, no.

Non-Athletic Trans women who have undergone gender affirming treatment often end up with similar body make-up to cis women in terms of lean mass vs fat mass body composition as well as grip strength, which is a widely seen as the illustrator for upper body strength. This is often 25% less than cis men and in line with cis women's grip strength.

As there are so few trans people and such little participation from trans people in professional sport, such research like the above for athletes is slow and rare, and so often organisational bodies in sports will use the above results as a benchmark to determine legislation on trans inclusion in sports.

I personally think the allowance of transgender athletes should be done on a case by case basis on the assessment of their progression in their trans journey and as a result their biological make-up and how it compares with other cis women.

Based on results from research about the effects of gender affirming care and the affect is had on someones physical make up, muscle mass, strength and body composition, to say allowing all trans women to compete in women's sporting events creates a skewed competition in favour of trans women is not true. That sweeping statement is probably what people are denying. People informing you that what you're saying is not correct isn't you being gaslit.

[Livia]

If you have a Y chromosome, you cannot compete with women for the safety of women. Hopefully the Olympic committee and other bodies will catch up with simple instruction.

[Zizu]

If you have a Y chromosome, you cannot compete with women for the safety of women. Hopefully the Olympic committee and other bodies will catch up with simple instruction.


Yes

It seems sooo obvious as well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Khelif scandal should be ranked among the worst in Olympic history, a saga
where the sport’s most powerful administrators became so seduced by gender
ideology, so in thrall to the lie that womanhood was reducible to some frivolous
passport detail, that they were prepared to put the very lives of female boxers
in peril. A woman could, as a direct consequence of a profoundly flawed official
policy, have died in that Paris ring. That is the stark truth. The International
Olympic Committee knew about Khelif. It had been told in 2023 about the test
results in New Delhi indicating that Khelif was biologically male, with
spokesman Mark Adams publicly admitting as much. But it did nothing,
disdaining the tests – with no evidence – as “ad hoc” and “not legitimate”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/boxing/2025/06/03/imane-khelif-sex-tests-scandal-everlasting-shame-on-ioc/

[Mystic Mock]

The IOC are the ones to blame for sure

Oh they're the villains of the story.

[Mystic Mock]

Well she isn't trans, she's from a country where it would be illegal to be so. She's lived her entire life as a female and is legally that after having been assigned it at birth.

Regarding the statement that allowing trans women to compete creates a disproportionate competition... sometimes, yes. many other times, no.

Non-Athletic Trans women who have undergone gender affirming treatment often end up with similar body make-up to cis women in terms of lean mass vs fat mass body composition as well as grip strength, which is a widely seen as the illustrator for upper body strength. This is often 25% less than cis men and in line with cis women's grip strength.

As there are so few trans people and such little participation from trans people in professional sport, such research like the above for athletes is slow and rare, and so often organisational bodies in sports will use the above results as a benchmark to determine legislation on trans inclusion in sports.

I personally think the allowance of transgender athletes should be done on a case by case basis on the assessment of their progression in their trans journey and as a result their biological make-up and how it compares with other cis women.

Based on results from research about the effects of gender affirming care and the affect is had on someones physical make up, muscle mass, strength and body composition, to say allowing all trans women to compete in women's sporting events creates a skewed competition in favour of trans women is not true. That sweeping statement is probably what people are denying. People informing you that what you're saying is not correct isn't you being gaslit.

Sports organisations will never do this, mainly because the competitors and viewers will want clarity on which version of the Sport that they're taking part in/viewing in the audiences case.

[user104658]

Well she isn't trans, she's from a country where it would be illegal to be so. She's lived her entire life as a female and is legally that after having been assigned it at birth.

Regarding the statement that allowing trans women to compete creates a disproportionate competition... sometimes, yes. many other times, no.

Non-Athletic Trans women who have undergone gender affirming treatment often end up with similar body make-up to cis women in terms of lean mass vs fat mass body composition as well as grip strength, which is a widely seen as the illustrator for upper body strength. This is often 25% less than cis men and in line with cis women's grip strength.

As there are so few trans people and such little participation from trans people in professional sport, such research like the above for athletes is slow and rare, and so often organisational bodies in sports will use the above results as a benchmark to determine legislation on trans inclusion in sports.

I personally think the allowance of transgender athletes should be done on a case by case basis on the assessment of their progression in their trans journey and as a result their biological make-up and how it compares with other cis women.

Based on results from research about the effects of gender affirming care and the affect is had on someones physical make up, muscle mass, strength and body composition, to say allowing all trans women to compete in women's sporting events creates a skewed competition in favour of trans women is not true. That sweeping statement is probably what people are denying. People informing you that what you're saying is not correct isn't you being gaslit.

Its irrelevant that plenty or even most trans competitors wouldn't have an advantage, the case by case scenario you're proposing is a logistical impossibility and the clear examples where trans women do have biological advantage - even if you're correct and those are fringe examples - would mean that the top tier of those sports would be dominated by trans women.

The fact that there are already multiple clear real-world examples of this across multiple sports, whilst in your own words, "there are so few trans people and such little participation from trans people in professional sport", is actually proof of what you're denying. If participation is low then the number of examples of trans competitors in upper tiers must be disproportionate to scale, and thus is evidence of biological advantage for some trans individuals, even if "most trans people" don't have that advantage. That's how professional competition works.

[BBXX]

Its irrelevant that plenty or even most trans competitors wouldn't have an advantage, the case by case scenario you're proposing is a logistical impossibility and the clear examples where trans women do have biological advantage - even if you're correct and those are fringe examples - would mean that the top tier of those sports would be dominated by trans women.

The fact that there are already multiple clear real-world examples of this across multiple sports, whilst in your own words, "there are so few trans people and such little participation from trans people in professional sport", is actually proof of what you're denying. If participation is low then the number of examples of trans competitors in upper tiers must be disproportionate to scale, and thus is evidence of biological advantage for some trans individuals, even if "most trans people" don't have that advantage. That's how professional competition works.

But there aren’t an abundance of trans women dominating women’s sports.

I mean, there has been one trans Olympic gold medalist, Quinn, who was born female.

———-

Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lower-body strength

Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lung function

Transgender women had a higher percentage of fat mass, lower fat-free mass, and weaker handgrip strength compared to cisgender men

Transgender women’s bone density was found to be equivalent to that of cisgender women, which is linked to muscle strength

There were no meaningful differences found between the two groups’ hemoglobin profiles (a key factor in athletic performance)

[Zizu]

But there aren’t an abundance of trans women dominating women’s sports.

I mean, there has been one trans Olympic gold medalist, Quinn, who was born female.

———-

Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lower-body strength

Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lung function

Transgender women had a higher percentage of fat mass, lower fat-free mass, and weaker handgrip strength compared to cisgender men

Transgender women’s bone density was found to be equivalent to that of cisgender women, which is linked to muscle strength

There were no meaningful differences found between the two groups’ hemoglobin profiles (a key factor in athletic performance)


Trans women are ruining all levels of women’s sport..that’s why all the parents are fired up as they are seeing all the years of devotion to the sport being undermined as these lads just come from nowhere taking trophies AND all kinds of college / world records.

As things stand some records will never be broken unless they get wiped off ( as they should)


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[BBXX]

Trans women are ruining all levels of women’s sport..that’s why all the parents are fired up as they are seeing all the years of devotion to the sport being undermined as these lads just come from nowhere taking trophies AND all kinds of college / world records.

As things stand some records will never be broken unless they get wiped off ( as they should)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nowhere am I advocating that that is okay, or letting anyone who identifies as a woman to take part in women's sport.

I am talking about those who have undergone hormonal treatment which brings their biological ability in line with that of the gender they identify as.

How you can quote what I said above and think I'm talking about anything else shows you're not actually reading what I'm saying.

[Nicky91]

i mean Martina Navratilova also might've got both chromosomes, how masculine she looks


should we strip her of her titles while we're at it? :think:

[Niamh.]

i mean Martina Navratilova also might've got both chromosomes, how masculine she looks


should we strip her of her titles while we're at it? :think::rolleyes:

[Nicky91]

also muslims are against trans people ;)


i find that also quite some proof that Imane Khelif is a biologically born female, but who similar to the likes of Navratilova, Sherida Spitse, and i'm pretty sure in the england women's football team you also have certain players who look more masculine than feminine


how to sort this appropriately, just let Miss Khelif compete in the right women's weight category


and pretty sure the likes of Angela Carini, need to compete in the lowest weight category :think:

[Zizu]

i mean Martina Navratilova also might've got both chromosomes, how masculine she looks


should we strip her of her titles while we're at it? :think:


Excellent point and YES ..

She/he brutalised the ultra feminine Chris Evert time after time !!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[user104658]

But there aren’t an abundance of trans women dominating women’s sports.

I mean, there has been one trans Olympic gold medalist, Quinn, who was born female.

———-

Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lower-body strength

Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lung function

Transgender women had a higher percentage of fat mass, lower fat-free mass, and weaker handgrip strength compared to cisgender men

Transgender women’s bone density was found to be equivalent to that of cisgender women, which is linked to muscle strength

There were no meaningful differences found between the two groups’ hemoglobin profiles (a key factor in athletic performance)

There are a few key examples across various sports (swimming, etc) and the question would be, if there's disproportionate representation at the top levels vs the overall levels of participation - which you yourself have said is low - then should it not be considered that this effect is likely to become more pronounced over time, if we also accept the assertion that inclusion/acceptance is likely to mean that more trans-identifying individuals choose to fully transition (which I can by deduction only assume is an implied outcome of trans acceptance and inclusion; it's repeatedly claimed that many trans individuals are "closeted" due to lack of acceptance).

Again, the second half of your post isn't relevant; all of those can be true for the median examples of trans people who have undergone hormonal transition, whilst it still being true that fringe examples retain increased muscle density/bone mass/athletic performance advantages and that's all that matters... because the upper tiers of professional sport, by their very nature, are going to highlight fringe performance examples and not "the norm"/"the median". It makes the "usually when someone hormonally transitions..." argument meaningless. "Usually" is meaningless. 99.9% is meaningless if 0.1% have a biological advantage, that 0.1% will naturally filter upwards in competitive events?

Second consideration: how would you disprove the advantage. Yes, it may be the case that 99.9% of those entering have no advantage and thus are never "highlighted", but the point of entering at all would be to succeed... to get onto the best teams, to win medals... and so when a trans person DOES win, then they ARE at the top of that game, and how do you then in any meaningful way demonstrate that this was not because of some biological advantage? It's neither provable nor disprovable.

However. It is a fact that some people who undergo full transition retain some clear advantages of male puberty - be that leg length, speed, height, even finger length. Meaning that the only solution would be your own solution; testing and consideration on an individual basis, which is neither practical nor feasible at scale, so becomes entirely moot.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lower-body strength

Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lung function

Transgender women had a higher percentage of fat mass, lower fat-free mass, and weaker handgrip strength compared to cisgender men

Transgender women’s bone density was found to be equivalent to that of cisgender women, which is linked to muscle strength

There were no meaningful differences found between the two groups’ hemoglobin profiles (a key factor in athletic performance)

You are quoting one rather disputed (to say the least ) study from the, ahem, University of Brighton

I will direct you to a popular comment regarding that "study " when the Telegraph reported on it:

"This is a study that is not worth the paper it's written on. Just look at the
numbers who participated. 19 transgender women, 20 cisgender women, 19
cisgender men and 11 transgender men. Such low numbers, even for an
experimental or preliminary study, is laughable and can hardly be taken
seriously. It also appears to be trying to push the narrative that being trans
(especially a man who identifies as a woman) is a disadvantage even though
results when it comes to sports involving speed, strength power and contact
have been irrefutably proven to show the opposite. This is a junk study to
satisfy the trans cult lobbyists trying to infiltrate womens sports and should
be thrown in the bin. The IOC should hang its head in shame for promoting
this garbage."

[Livia]

Excellent point and YES ..

She/he brutalised the ultra feminine Chris Evert time after time !!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

She was stronger and better than Evert. That doesn't make her a man or give you the right to refer to her as he/she! Evert would have folded against Venus and Serena, are they men too?

[BBXX]

There are a few key examples across various sports (swimming, etc) and the question would be, if there's disproportionate representation at the top levels vs the overall levels of participation - which you yourself have said is low - then should it not be considered that this effect is likely to become more pronounced over time, if we also accept the assertion that inclusion/acceptance is likely to mean that more trans-identifying individuals choose to fully transition (which I can by deduction only assume is an implied outcome of trans acceptance and inclusion; it's repeatedly claimed that many trans individuals are "closeted" due to lack of acceptance).


Are you referring to Lia Thomas? She is the usual scapegoat used for an example of this.

Is it disproportionate at the top levels vs the overall levels, that's what I am asking? I can't see it is, there aren't swathes of professional athletes taking Gold medals at championships, it literally is just a few.


Again, the second half of your post isn't relevant; all of those can be true for the median examples of trans people who have undergone hormonal transition, whilst it still being true that fringe examples retain increased muscle density/bone mass/athletic performance advantages and that's all that matters... because the upper tiers of professional sport, by their very nature, are going to highlight fringe performance examples and not "the norm"/"the median". It makes the "usually when someone hormonally transitions..." argument meaningless. "Usually" is meaningless. 99.9% is meaningless if 0.1% have a biological advantage, that 0.1% will naturally filter upwards in competitive events?

I wouldn't say t's not relevant - if we accept the vast majority of trans women fall in line with cis women, then we accept that by and large the playing field is relatively level. There might be 01.% (of the 0.002% participating) that will naturally filter upwards, but the same is said for cis women. There will be many cis women who just are biologically in a better position to win than other cis women - but if we accept that these cis women fall within he accepted umbrella of a cis woman's biological make-up, albeit at the top end of it, why can't the same consideration be made for trans women.


Second consideration: how would you disprove the advantage. Yes, it may be the case that 99.9% of those entering have no advantage and thus are never "highlighted", but the point of entering at all would be to succeed... to get onto the best teams, to win medals... and so when a trans person DOES win, then they ARE at the top of that game, and how do you then in any meaningful way demonstrate that this was not because of some biological advantage? It's neither provable nor disprovable.


This is the very tricky bit, I agree. And I agree case-by-case basis is probably not particularly feasible (though I am not expert on the process) but it certain is the fairest for all concerned, which is the POV I'm talking from.

[Niamh.]

Are you referring to Lia Thomas? She is the usual scapegoat used for an example of this.

Is it disproportionate at the top levels vs the overall levels, that's what I am asking? I can't see it is, there aren't swathes of professional athletes taking Gold medals at championships, it literally is just a few.



I wouldn't say t's not relevant - if we accept the vast majority of trans women fall in line with cis women, then we accept that by and large the playing field is relatively level. There might be 01.% (of the 0.002% participating) that will naturally filter upwards, but the same is said for cis women. There will be many cis women who just are biologically in a better position to win than other cis women - but if we accept that these cis women fall within he accepted umbrella of a cis woman's biological make-up, albeit at the top end of it, why can't the same consideration be made for trans women.



This is the very tricky bit, I agree. And I agree case-by-case basis is probably not particularly feasible (though I am not expert on the process) but it certain is the fairest for all concerned, which is the POV I'm talking from.

The only solutions imo and to protect the integrity of women's sports is to either have a women's category and an open category or to have an extra trans category.

[BBXX]

You are quoting one rather disputed (to say the least ) study from the, ahem, University of Brighton

I will direct you to a popular comment regarding that "study " when the Telegraph reported on it:

"This is a study that is not worth the paper it's written on. Just look at the
numbers who participated. 19 transgender women, 20 cisgender women, 19
cisgender men and 11 transgender men. Such low numbers, even for an
experimental or preliminary study, is laughable and can hardly be taken
seriously. It also appears to be trying to push the narrative that being trans
(especially a man who identifies as a woman) is a disadvantage even though
results when it comes to sports involving speed, strength power and contact
have been irrefutably proven to show the opposite. This is a junk study to
satisfy the trans cult lobbyists trying to infiltrate womens sports and should
be thrown in the bin. The IOC should hang its head in shame for promoting
this garbage."

So my source is questionable because it's the University of Brighton but yours, the Telegraph, is fine? If you're suggesting mine is biased...erm, so is yours.

The truth of the matter is there are so few examples of research to use that we can only go off what we have and as I mentioned before, it's such a small infrequent issue that there will probably never be any widespread research because it's not the worth the time or money.

[Livia]

The claims that transwomen don't have an advantage in women's sports is disingenuous as best. If they've been through male puberty, they will be stronger and faster. Unless we're saying that men have no advantage over women in sport. We're not saying that, are we? Because that would be a claim too far.

[BBXX]

The claims that transwomen don't have an advantage in women's sports is disingenuous as best. If they've been through male puberty, they will be stronger and faster. Unless we're saying that men have no advantage over women in sport. We're not saying that, are we? Because that would be a claim too far.

Biological cis men are different to trans women who have gone through the hormonal changes. There is a huge change their many aspects of their strength, muscle mass, grip stretch etc.... which some research suggests brings them in line with cis women. Nobody is suggesting a trans women yet to have gender affirming hormones has no physical advantage over cis women.

[Livia]

I wonder whether the females who have lost out to men, after training for years and dedicating their life to their sport but lost records, prize money and scholarships, will be compensated?

[user104658]

The claims that transwomen don't have an advantage in women's sports is disingenuous as best. If they've been through male puberty, they will be stronger and faster. Unless we're saying that men have no advantage over women in sport. We're not saying that, are we? Because that would be a claim too far.

The argument (although it's never framed negatively in this way) is essentially that the side-effects of the hormonal therapy counteract the advantages of male puberty, which in many cases is probably true (I have no idea how that can be framed as a good thing for an individual, but that's another issue, and their choice I guess)...

...but the issue of course is that even if that's true a lot of the time, it's not going to be true all of the time, which means that some trans people will have a clear advantage. That's all that matters really and there's an over focus on the "most of the time" when "most" has no relevance to top-level competition... like the whole point is that it's highlighting peak performance examples, not "the average".

BBXX's argument I think seems to be that we could test and exclude those who do have a competitive advantage on an individual basis but then it all starts to unravel and become really meaningless :think:. "Trans people can compete with women - but only if we think they're not going to win".

Again in skill-based events it's not an issue but in individual events or team sports that have any physical component, it's just entirely impossible to disprove a biological advantage.

[Livia]

I have no problem with transwomen taking part in sport where strength and speed is not an issue, and where men and women can compete on an equal basis.

[user104658]

Biological cis men are different to trans women who have gone through the hormonal changes. There is a huge change their many aspects of their strength, muscle mass, grip stretch etc.... which some research suggests brings them in line with cis women.

Often/most of the time is the part your keep willfully ignoring. Is your argument that this is always the case? Because... it simply isn't. A proportion retain a strength, reach, muscle mass and bone density advantage.

Again I'm genuinely asking if you have any realistic/reasonable way to "filter out" those retained advantages in a ranked setting where those with advantages will naturally rise upwards.

[BBXX]

I have no problem with transwomen taking part in sport where strength and speed is not an issue, and where men and women can compete on an equal basis.

In other events, how would you feel about a trans man, who has been taking testosterone as part of their transition, competing in the women's event? They were born a woman after all, which is what you want from a woman's category... right?

[user104658]

In other events, how would you feel about a trans man, who has been taking testosterone as part of their transition, competing in the women's event? They were born a woman after all, which is what you want from a woman's category... right?

This is a point often made but already moot; testosterone is a performance enhancing substance in sport. A cis male on supplemental T would be banned, so of course, (biological) females supplementing testosterone are going to be considered to be on performance enhancers - whether they're trans men, or just women chugging testosterone.

[BBXX]

Often/most of the time is the part your keep willfully ignoring. Is your argument that this is always the case? Because... it simply isn't. A proportion retain a strength, reach, muscle mass and bone density advantage.

Again I'm genuinely asking if you have any realistic/reasonable way to "filter out" those retained advantages in a ranked setting where those with advantages will naturally rise upwards.

I'm not ignoring it, but do I see a 0.01% of a 0.02% of people as a massive issue? Not particularly. I appreciate my idea of a case-by-case basis is perfect, but I don't think your idea of banning trans women whose body composition falls in line with cis women is perfect either. This is a complex scenario and I don't have all the answers.

[Niamh.]

In other events, how would you feel about a trans man, who has been taking testosterone as part of their transition, competing in the women's event? They were born a woman after all, which is what you want from a woman's category... right?

Absolutely not, taking testosterone is doping and any non transman taking testosterone wouldn't be allowed to compete either, the only solution there is for the transman to not take testosterone until after their sports career is over or to take it and not compete. There's plenty of reasons why people can't compete in professional sports :shrug:

[BBXX]

This is a point often made but already moot; testosterone is a performance enhancing substance in sport. A cis male on supplemental T would be banned, so of course, (biological) females supplementing testosterone are going to be considered to be on performance enhancers - whether they're trans men, or just women chugging testosterone.

Yes, indeed. So hormonal treatments are widely accepted to change the body significantly enough for it to impact someone's athletic abilities, then.

[user104658]

I'm not ignoring it, but do I see a 0.01% of a 0.02% of people as a massive issue? Not particularly. I appreciate my idea of a case-by-case basis is perfect, but I don't think your idea of banning trans women whose body composition falls in line with cis women is perfect either. This is a complex scenario and I don't have all the answers.

It's not an issue in a high-school football game, of course it's an issue at professional or olympic level? 0.000001% can compete at that level at all, it literally only takes ONE competitor to have a clear advantage at competition level to enter the competition for them to have a dramatically increased likelihood of winning. One person out of 7 billion for an Olympic gold.

[user104658]

Yes, indeed. So hormonal treatments are widely accepted to change the body significantly enough for it to impact someone's athletic abilities, then.

Of course hormonal treatments affect performance, a trans woman will not be able to compete in male events because of that, that's not the debate. The debate is not "are they as good as they would have been without transition" - it's not "do they retain all of their advantage" it's "do they retain any biological advantage".

I honestly feel like there's an element of this that you understand but don't want to.

Sporting fairness and trans inclusion unfortunately simply do not gel and won't, it's not just complex it's impossible to reconcile, and (in my opinion) should just be an accepted aspect of transition. I know it won't be accepted. Just my opinion that there is no way to iron out any level of meaningful objective fairness other than to say "born biologically female only".

I will concede that there's a more complicated issue around actual bonafide biological/medical gender ambiguity, but those examples are TRULY extremely rare and that's when individual consideration would (and could) come into it.

Would need to assert the rarity of this though because there's a lot of disingenuous claims about the biological science of sex/gender, people repeating online hocus-pocus about ambiguous chromosomes and saying "but some frogs and lizards can change sex so why not primates" etc.(utter drivel, is all there is to say about those claims - its nonsense pseudoscience coming with an ulterior sociological motive and zero real scientific curiosity).

[Maru]

I like how being a woman is being dumbed down to what hormones we have, etc. It completely misses the plot for me.

[Cherie]

I like how being a woman is being dumbed down to what hormones we have, etc. It completely misses the plot for me.

Absolutely Maru, its pretty grim out there. I think sport can easily accomodate another category, if an athelete becomes disabled they don't move heaven and earth to continue to participate in the able bodied category, transwomen and men though not so sure there are that many in sport? also need to get their head around that they need their own category where they can compete with people who are on the same playing field, it really is as simple as that, life has dealt them a hand and they need to deal with it but not at the expense of others

[Beso]

The argument (although it's never framed negatively in this way) is essentially that the side-effects of the hormonal therapy counteract the advantages of male puberty, which in many cases is probably true (I have no idea how that can be framed as a good thing for an individual, but that's another issue, and their choice I guess)...

...but the issue of course is that even if that's true a lot of the time, it's not going to be true all of the time, which means that some trans people will have a clear advantage. That's all that matters really and there's an over focus on the "most of the time" when "most" has no relevance to top-level competition... like the whole point is that it's highlighting peak performance examples, not "the average".

BBXX's argument I think seems to be that we could test and exclude those who do have a competitive advantage on an individual basis but then it all starts to unravel and become really meaningless :think:. "Trans people can compete with women - but only if we think they're not going to win".

Again in skill-based events it's not an issue but in individual events or team sports that have any physical component, it's just entirely impossible to disprove a biological advantage.




What utter nonsense is the first line of the last paragraph....?

[user104658]

What utter nonsense is the first line of the last paragraph....?

Which line and what are you struggling with Parmy, I'll do my best to break it down into an easier format.

[Beso]

Which line and what are you struggling with Parmy, I'll do my best to break it down into an easier format.

Skilll based events.....what isn't an issue?

[BBXX]

I like how being a woman is being dumbed down to what hormones we have, etc. It completely misses the plot for me.

I don't think anyone is doing that. Talking about hormone levels ensuring a more level playing field isn't defining women by said hormones.

On the contrary, I've spent a lot of time on here advocating that women shouldn't be defined by their physical attributes. Many women on here disagree and are happy to be defined by their body parts and reproductive organs, which is sad to see as it feels quite reductive but each to their own.

[Beso]

Judge em by the pusssy..




Soz...me bad.

[user104658]

I don't think anyone is doing that. Talking about hormone levels ensuring a more level playing field isn't defining women by said hormones.

On the contrary, I've spent a lot of time on here advocating that women shouldn't be defined by their physical attributes. Many women on here disagree and are happy to be defined by their body parts and reproductive organs, which is sad to see as it feels quite reductive but each to their own.

I'd strongly argue that it's less reductive than basing the classification on a nebulous/subjective individual feeling that's (in every example I've ever seen) firmly rooted in the gendered societal expectations and norms that have been historically repressive of women.

Loosely put, in my opinion, there are only two types of meaningful gender difference;

1) literal physical differences between the sexes and the social effect of those differences and

2) the social effect of being raised in a patriarchal society.


Neither apply to trans women, and thus the gender identity of transness I can only put down to a type of gender stereotyping that shouldn't exist and should never be further legitimised.

[BBXX]

I'd strongly argue that it's less reductive than basing the classification on a nebulous/subjective individual feeling that's (in every example I've ever seen) firmly rooted in the gendered societal expectations and norms that have been historically repressive of women.

Loosely put, in my opinion, there are only two types of meaningful gender difference;

1) literal physical differences between the sexes and the social effect of those differences and

2) the social effect of being raised in a patriarchal society.


Neither apply to trans women, and thus the gender identity of transness I can only put down to a type of gender stereotyping that shouldn't exist and should never be further legitimised.

I have agreed previously that sometimes it can problematically be tied to stereotyping (cis people are guilty of doing this too...) however based on what you've just said, I question how many trans people you know and have had real conversations with about it.

[Livia]

I'd strongly argue that it's less reductive than basing the classification on a nebulous/subjective individual feeling that's (in every example I've ever seen) firmly rooted in the gendered societal expectations and norms that have been historically repressive of women.

Loosely put, in my opinion, there are only two types of meaningful gender difference;

1) literal physical differences between the sexes and the social effect of those differences and

2) the social effect of being raised in a patriarchal society.


Neither apply to trans women, and thus the gender identity of transness I can only put down to a type of gender stereotyping that shouldn't exist and should never be further legitimised.

I don't often agree with you, but I do agree with this post.

[BBXX]

I think that opinion comes from misunderstanding the difference between gender identity and gender expression. I totally get how gender expressions can sometimes manifest in insulting ways and as a result it seems like it's rooted stereotypes, but I think there should be some consideration for the confusing and complex nature of living as a trans woman or man within. society that is largely always questioning your legitimacy.

Society is a judgement beast and people on this site time and time again has proven as an example just how quick they are to devalue someone's own identity because, of course, they know better. If a trans woman was to dress is stereotypically more masculine clothes, many people would absolutely question the legitimacy of them 'wanting to be a woman'. Wanting to prevent this, and with the feeling that dressing overtly 'as a woman would' will make them feel more womanly, this can lead to this overcompensating in a way that not only seems to embolden stereotypes but also does it badly. I do think for the large majority of trans women this applies to, it's unintentional and it's a way of settling into their life.

Gender identity, however, is internal and farm more intrinsic to someone's body and sex, which is where someone's 'feeling in the wrong body' comes from. There is some evidence to suggest a trans persons brain aligns more in line with the preferred gender than the one they are assigned based on their biological make up - that is to say they exhibit the subtle differences that exist between male and female brains.

So while transness isn't tied into gender stereotypes, sometimes the expression exhibits as such.

[Maru]

I don't think anyone is doing that. Talking about hormone levels ensuring a more level playing field isn't defining women by said hormones.

On the contrary, I've spent a lot of time on here advocating that women shouldn't be defined by their physical attributes.Many women on here disagree and are happy to be defined by their body parts and reproductive organs, which is sad to see as it feels quite reductive but each to their own.

Women don't need anyone to redefine them. We know what we are lol. Nobody I've seen has asked others to advocate for them. We can advocate for ourselves.

Consider we're being instructed we should think of ourselves differently, but yet, we have to support the self-identification of other people with zero questions whatsoever. None of that makes any logical sense.