Trans issues discussion thread

[Mystic Mock]

Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer does not believe transgender women are women, his official spokesman has said.

It comes after the UK Supreme Court ruled last week that a woman is defined by biological sex under equalities law.

In March 2022, when he was leader of the opposition, Sir Keir told the Times, external that "a woman is a female adult, and in addition to that transwomen are women, and that is not just my view - that is actually the law".

Asked if Sir Keir still believed that a transgender woman was a woman, the PM's official spokesman said: "No, the Supreme Court judgment has made clear that when looking at the Equality Act, a woman is a biological woman."

The spokesman added: "That is set out clearly by the court judgment."

Pressed over when the PM had changed his mind, his spokesman insisted the Labour government had been consistent that single-sex spaces "are protected in law".

The ruling also makes it clear that a person who was born male but identifies as a woman does not have the right to use spaces or services designated as for women-only.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crldey0z00ro


---------------------------------

Does anyone now believe a word the prime minister says?

The answer to your question is no.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

No he flip flops more than Nicky

:joker:

[Mystic Mock]

JK Rowling really is off down the pipeline at this point which is a shame. She really didn't need to go full Lozza Fox, it's not a good look and cheapens her platform if anything.

I think it's going to be hard for almost anyone to be like Laurence Fox.

That man is nearly as bad as Andrew Tate imo.

[Niamh.]

Great post Maru

Yep, well said Maru

[user104658]

I think it's going to be hard for almost anyone to be like Laurence Fox.

That man is nearly as bad as Andrew Tate imo.

I don't know if he's as bad as Tate because he isn't an actual pimp/sex trafficker, but the really amazing talent he has, is that he's managed to be just as gross and unappealing a human being as Tate without doing those things. He's just so... snivelling...

[Mystic Mock]

I don't know if he's as bad as Tate because he isn't an actual pimp/sex trafficker, but the really amazing talent he has, is that he's managed to be just as gross and unappealing a human being as Tate without doing those things. He's just so... snivelling...

You've definitely hit the nail on the head.

He is so effortless at being gross.

[arista]

https://liveblog.digitalimages.sky/lc-images-sky/lcimg-1fde3032-442d-4aa0-b1aa-4f6974c606e3.png

[Vicky.]

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment

For anyone interested

[user104658]

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

[user104658]

I'd go as far as to say that the situation with public spaces is now actually worse.

Its not an issue with shelters/sports/anything where actual identity will be known, but open public spaces? Situation is currently broken. Oop.

[Cherie]

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.


There is no conundrum, most restaurants, bars etc have a 3rd space or if they can provide a lockable cubicle then there is no issue, honestly this is not the big deal it is made out to be, heard a transwoman on the radio this moring saying people would gather outside ladies toilets to assault transwomen, literal scaremongering AND might I add this lady said she was going to continue to use the ladies facilities, which I dont mind as long as there is common sense involved, I do not want to see an obvious man in a dress in female spaces, this will also make it much clearer for sporting bodies and for quotas on employing women

[Crimson Dynamo]

Community notes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpjCc0jW0AA0XSK?format=jpg&name=small

[Cherie]

Community notes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GpjCc0jW0AA0XSK?format=jpg&name=small


Just sums up the contempt for female safeguarding, reducing it to be called 'a bathroom bill' I don't understand what is being said here, if they are not out to their colleagues and classmates, how would going into a bathroom they are supposed to use out them ..:think: Not thought that one through

[user104658]

There is no conundrum, most restaurants, bars etc have a 3rd space or if they can provide a lockable cubicle then there is no issue, honestly this is not the big deal it is made out to be, heard a transwoman on the radio this moring saying people would gather outside ladies toilets to assault transwomen, literal scaremongering AND might I add this lady said she was going to continue to use the ladies facilities, which I dont mind as long as there is common sense involved, I do not want to see an obvious man in a dress in female spaces, this will also make it much clearer for sporting bodies and for quotas on employing women

No, I'm saying how do you stop a predatory male from pretending to be a trans man (biological female) in order to enter women's bathrooms, when it's been legislated that bathroom use is biological sex. I honestly feel like it's part of the equation that's been overlooked with the focus being on predatory men pretending to be trans women to get to women... we do now have an issue where predatory men can pretend to be trans men (people who look like men can claim they were born female) to access women's toilets.

I'm not talking about the people who will voluntarily use the correct spaces I'm talking about the ones who will exploit the ability not to.

[BBXX]

Just sums up the contempt for female safeguarding, reducing it to be called 'a bathroom bill' I don't understand what is being said here, if they are not out to their colleagues and classmates, how would going into a bathroom they are supposed to use out them ..:think: Not thought that one through

They are saying if they're living life as a trans woman, and haven't told their colleagues they were born a man, they either now have to use the mans toilet which effectively outs them or break the law and use the women's.

[user104658]

They are saying if they're living life as a trans woman, and haven't told their colleagues they were born a man, they either now have to use the mans toilet which effectively outs them or break the law and use the women's.

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

[BBXX]

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

I was just explaining what they meant by what they said. It will affect trans men more than trans women, but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again as I've said all I really need to without repeating myself, I just wanted to clarify what that person meant that's all. :)

[Crimson Dynamo]

I was just explaining what they meant by what they said. It will affect trans men more than trans women, but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again as I've said all I really need to without repeating myself, I just wanted to clarify what that person meant that's all. :)

"but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again "

that seems rather convenient in this section of the site

https://media.invisioncic.com/Mrangmedia/emoticons/confused.gif

[user104658]

"but I don't want to get into the debate side of things again "

that seems rather convenient in this section of the site

https://media.invisioncic.com/Mrangmedia/emoticons/confused.gif

To be fair to BBXX if they have nothing new to add then rereading old ground can be a waste of time, most of us could learn to do that more. Not me but others definitely.

Although...

If we were afraid to retread well worn paths this section would be completely dead.

[Crimson Dynamo]

To be fair to BBXX if they have nothing new to add then rereading old ground can be a waste of time, most of us could learn to do that more. Not me but others definitely.

Although...

If we were afraid to retread well worn paths this section would be completely dead.

yeah yeah

you hate the site blah blah blah

yet here you are day after day

lol

[Redway]

BBXX I genuinely don't mean this in an offensive way, just a realistic/pragmatic/honest way...

Very, very few trans women are actually passing. Often, in polite society, people will pretend it to be the case, but it just isn't. Most individuals who have been through male puberty simply don't convincingly pass as women.

Testosterone has a huge effect on body development which is why the opposite problem I posed above is true - when a biological female has been on testosterone for a few years they will become very masculine and many will convincingly pass as male. It's also why it's very difficult for trans men to detransition (after a few years of T they will ALWAYS look masculine).

There are some obvious biological reasons for this. Male hormones have a huge transformative effect t on the human body in a way that female hormones (or removal of male hormones) does not.

But yeah. Tl;Dr there are going to be very few situations where a trans person is "outed" as trans to their coworkers because of this.

There are definitely plenty of other human moral/ethical concerns but I don't think this is one.

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

Well you can't change sex but you can reverse the cosmetic attempt

Awful business mentally

[Oliver_W]

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.
Apart from a third space, the solution seems to be to have spaces for
a) cis women
b) everyone else

[user104658]

Apart from a third space, the solution seems to be to have spaces for
a) cis women
b) everyone else

I still think the only "clean" solution is self-contained toilets (where the occupant is then irrelevant) there no other solution that isn't going to be, in some cases, a major issue. In the absense of that I do think it "somehow" has to be the case that transitioned (long term hormone replacement) trans men who look clearly male should be using male spaces. I know that creates a disparity between trans men and trans women but :shrug: it's the only realistic safeguarding option.

[Maru]

I never knew de-transitioning was a thing, or that it got that far.

It's a thing and they get dropped by doctors as soon as they start questioning. The whole thing is a medical racket.

[BBXX]

Yes detransitioning is a thing but isn’t very common. There are a few different stats around, ranging from a 0.46% detransition rate to an 8% detransition rate. Of those who do detransition most so do temporarily though - due to not financially able to continue with treatment or judgement/pressure from family or friends.

[Mystic Mock]

The "trans men (biological women) shouldn't use male toilets" conundrum is a major, major stumbling block I cannot even fathom what the solution there is going to be. Literally any bloke could walk into a women's changing room claiming that they are a trans man and I can't see how anyone could prove one way or the other without peeking their genitals.

Being blunt; more often than not, you can tell when a trans woman is trans. People are polite and claim otherwise but most are not entirely "passing".

But testosterone therapies have a HUGE effect on biological women and trans men can easily look 100% male, if often on the short side, but we can't go assuming that all short kings are actually biologically female.

I dunno how that's going to be solved.

Honestly I think the simplest safeguarding solution would be to say that biological men can't use women's spaces, but biological women can use men's spaces if they choose to. Trans men should, if they choose to, still use men's toilets.

That would be a nightmare (or basically impossible) to write into any coherent law though.

Being blunt about it, it's really rare to hear about women being sexual predators.

Whilst I'm sure that there are cases of men being sexually violated by women, it is certainly not at a level where there's a cause for concern/debate about Trans Men using the men's bathroom.

That's why I don't think that there's going to be even any attempt to try and change or enforce Trans Men out of men's bathrooms, because biologically speaking they're still female, so they're less likely to commit sex offenses on paper.

[Mystic Mock]

No, I'm saying how do you stop a predatory male from pretending to be a trans man (biological female) in order to enter women's bathrooms, when it's been legislated that bathroom use is biological sex. I honestly feel like it's part of the equation that's been overlooked with the focus being on predatory men pretending to be trans women to get to women... we do now have an issue where predatory men can pretend to be trans men (people who look like men can claim they were born female) to access women's toilets.

I'm not talking about the people who will voluntarily use the correct spaces I'm talking about the ones who will exploit the ability not to.

Good point tbh.

[Jessica.]

Being blunt about it, it's really rare to hear about women being sexual predators.

Whilst I'm sure that there are cases of men being sexually violated by women, it is certainly not at a level where there's a cause for concern/debate about Trans Men using the men's bathroom.

That's why I don't think that there's going to be even any attempt to try and change or enforce Trans Men out of men's bathrooms, because biologically speaking they're still female, so they're less likely to commit sex offenses on paper.

What about all the female teachers in the UK who've abused young boy pupils? I've seen many a headline about that over the course of my life. It does happen way more than you think but the victims are way less likely to report the woman who violated them.

[user104658]

Yes detransitioning is a thing but isn’t very common. There are a few different stats around, ranging from a 0.46% detransition rate to an 8% detransition rate. Of those who do detransition most so do temporarily though - due to not financially able to continue with treatment or judgement/pressure from family or friends.

It is worth noting that a lot of these stats refer to detransitiining after beginning actual physical interventions (hormonal treatment and surgery), halting transition or "detransitioning" socially before medical processes have begun is much (much) more common especially amongst adolescent females (trans boys).

Therea little to no evidence that this is due to social pressure and is fairly consistent whether family and peers are supportive or not. Although it's often framed as "pressured" for political reasons.

Anecdotally; my daughter (now 16) half 6 or 7 trans boys in her year group at age 13, and over a dozen more identifying as non-binary. Three years later there are two trans boys and zero non-binary. Most "went back" to original gender at around 14/15.

I think this is ultimately probably a Not-uncommon phase, with it not being very surprising that adolescents might experience some philosophical pondering around concepts of sex and gender in early adolescence, that if adults would just let them figure out without meddling, does happen. The social interference by adults with their own political agendas (from both sides of the political track) is what really muddies the waters. Kids being collateral damage.

[user104658]

What about all the female teachers in the UK who've abused young boy pupils? I've seen many a headline about that over the course of my life. It does happen way more than you think but the victims are way less likely to report the woman who violated them.

It does happen but it's waaaaayyy less common than the other way around, even accounting for cases that aren't officially reported. You're potentially over-estimating the percentage of male-abuser cases that are reported. Most of those are, sadly, unreported too - or only reported historically when the woman reaches adulthood (very unlikely to result in charges, or often reported after the abuser has died).

[BBXX]

Therea little to no evidence that this is due to social pressure and is fairly consistent whether family and peers are supportive or not. Although it's often framed as "pressured" for political reasons.

A survey of 27,000 trans people showed pressure from parents, difficulty of transition and harassment and discrimination at the top 3 reasons for detransition. Followed by Employment issues, Family Pressure, Relationship Pressure.

Only 5% detransitioned due to it not being the right gender identity for them after all. It's estimated that 0.40% of all trans people detransition because they realised they were incorrect/regretful about their transition.


Anecdotally; my daughter (now 16) half 6 or 7 trans boys in her year group at age 13, and over a dozen more identifying as non-binary. Three years later there are two trans boys and zero non-binary. Most "went back" to original gender at around 14/15.

I think this is ultimately probably a Not-uncommon phase, with it not being very surprising that adolescents might experience some philosophical pondering around concepts of sex and gender in early adolescence, that if adults would just let them figure out without meddling, does happen. The social interference by adults with their own political agendas (from both sides of the political track) is what really muddies the waters. Kids being collateral damage.

Yes. Of course, teenagers experiment and then settle and I agree they should just be left to figure it out at their own pace. A teenager identifying as trans at 13 and then not at 16 isn't detransitioning, I meant it the physical, medical sense.

[Crimson Dynamo]

New single-sex rules for NHS in weeks, Wes Streeting says

https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2025/04/wes-streeting-mp-secretary-state-989803193.jpg?w=620

Wes Streeting warned health managers they must uphold the law after a major
Supreme Court ruling declared trans women are not women.

Current NHS guidelines have to be scrapped because they allow trans people to
be accommodated based on how they dress, their names and their pronouns.

“We'll be issuing guidance in the coming weeks before the summer,”

Mr Streeting also said female staff must have their own spaces to change into
scrubs - in a major victory for campaigning nurses.

Eight nurses from Darlington are taking the NHS to court in October in their
bid to stop a trans colleague using their changing room.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/14112985/new-single-sex-rules-for-nhs-weeks/

[Niamh.]

I still think the only "clean" solution is self-contained toilets (where the occupant is then irrelevant) there no other solution that isn't going to be, in some cases, a major issue. In the absense of that I do think it "somehow" has to be the case that transitioned (long term hormone replacement) trans men who look clearly male should be using male spaces. I know that creates a disparity between trans men and trans women but :shrug: it's the only realistic safeguarding option.

Yeah, I agree, although you men are filthy beggers in public toilets, womens public toilets are usually pretty clean, Gav tells me the mens are usually minging

[user104658]

Yeah, I agree, although you men are filthy beggers in public toilets, womens public toilets are usually pretty clean, Gav tells the mens are usually minging

One of the first places I worked had to have £15000 of work done because when they went to replace the flooring in the men's toilets, they discovered that the floorboards themselves were so soaked in piss that the entire room had to be pulled out and rebuilt from the ground up.

That's how bad some men's toilets are :joker:

[Niamh.]

One of the first places I worked had to have £15000 of work done because when they went to replace the flooring in the men's toilets, they discovered that the floorboards themselves were so soaked in piss that the entire room had to be pulled out and rebuilt from the ground up.

That's how bad some men's toilets are :joker:

https://media.tenor.com/OUxqDVm0_78AAAAM/wolfhowling-yes.gif

[Vicky.]

Toilets are the thin end of the wedge anyway I would say. Refuges, prisons and such are much more important

[Niamh.]

Toilets are the thin end of the wedge anyway I would say. Refuges, prisons and such are much more important

Yes absolutely

[Parmy]

I see the trans activists were teaming up with say no to racism, to counter protest a save our children event in Manchester over the weekend.


Hurling abuse at C/A survivors. Calling them racists and Nazis.


Absolutely thick as ****, horrible, selfish nasty nasty people.

[user104658]

Toilets are the thin end of the wedge anyway I would say. Refuges, prisons and such are much more important

Those are the areas where "appearance" is irrelevant though as there will be documentation. It can be a simple legislative decision and that's that. Toilet-usage ultimately is impossible to MEANINGFULLY enforce, and depends entirely on social obedience.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Interesting shift

Also we must move the voting age to 26

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gpm_xeDWsAAKtm3?format=jpg&name=medium

[bots]

All it requires is social norms to be returned to what they were 20 years ago, before the world turned to ****

[Cherie]

Toilets are the thin end of the wedge anyway I would say. Refuges, prisons and such are much more important

Yes absolutely

It's a deliberate ploy to dumb down the law, keep focussing on bathrooms which no one is going to police ...even though apparently there will be gangs of vigilantes hanging around outside the ladies to ensure compliance :joker:

Prisons, Refuges, Sport, Employment this is where women will be protected

[user104658]

All it requires is social norms to be returned to what they were 20 years ago, before the world turned to ****

I agree-ISH things weren't perfect but in the places where it was good it was good enough, which sounds defeatist, but the quest for perfection can generate a backlash that ultimately makes things far worse for everyone - I think that's fairly clear to see. That's a difficult conversation to have with people though. "I know thing aren't perfect for you, I know you want them to be better, but pushing too hard and too fast will have the opposite effect".

It's a hard thing to accept, too.

[user104658]

It's a deliberate ploy to dumb down the law, keep focussing on bathrooms which no one is going to police ...even though apparently there will be gangs of vigilantes hanging around outside the ladies to ensure compliance :joker:

Prisons, Refuges, Sport, Employment this is where women will be protected

No one is going to enforce it but there will be an inevitable panopticon effect (people will self-enforce because of fear of potential consequences). I'm not saying that means it should be different but I think for the collateral damage, it's fair to acknowledge that and have sympathy, whilst still saying "there's no better solution unfortunately".

That isn't a courtesy that always (or often) been afforded "from the other side", there yes has been a culture of "tough tits learn to love it :hee: " which obviously means a lot of that sentiment is going to come right back now, however "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" etc etc

[Crimson Dynamo]

Christine Jardine Lib Dems 🔶
@cajardineMP


I've taken time to consider the EHRC interim guidance and can find nothing
reasssuring except the fact that it's 'interim'. Still too many unanswered
questions and too many uncertainties. The Government needs to take the lead
and provide clarity


-----

Also Lib Dems who receive sizeable donations from Ferring Pharmaceuticals, makers of puberty blockers

[Parmy]

It's a deliberate ploy to dumb down the law, keep focussing on bathrooms which no one is going to police ...even though apparently there will be gangs of vigilantes hanging around outside the ladies to ensure compliance :joker:

Prisons, Refuges, Sport, Employment this is where women will be protected

I don't think it's anything to laugh about.


Transmen will now have to use the women's toilets.


So we are going to get muscular, bearded masculine looking women going into the women's toilets..


What if one of them follows a woman woman into the toilet, and that woman's six ft four hulking boyfriend sees this bearded masculine person follow in behind her. What's he going to do when he sees that?



In my eyes this is going to increase the attacks on biological women.

[Cherie]

I don't think it's anything to laugh about.


Transmen will now have to use the women's toilets.


So we are going to get muscular, bearded masculine looking women going into the women's toilets..


What if one of them follows a woman woman into the toilet, and that woman's six ft four hulking boyfriend sees this bearded masculine person follow in behind her. What's he going to do when he sees that?


In my eyes this is going to increase the attacks on biological women.

That is literally not going to happen... if a transman is bearded there is zero chance he is going into a female toilet, he will either use the Mens as normal or the Disabled facility, it is quiet likely transmen use the third option anyway, but as we don't hear a peep from transmen we just don't know

how many transmen do we see interviewed on Marches...?

[Parmy]

That is literally not going to happen... if a transman is bearded there is zero chance he is going into a female toilet, he will either use the Mens as normal or the Disabled facility, it is quiet likely transmen use the third option anyway, but as we don't hear a peep from transmen we just don't know

how many transmen do we see interviewed on Marches...?



But the muscular bearded transmen won't want to break the law, so as a woman(defined by law) she or he will have to use the women's,or risk being placed on the sex register.

[Cherie]

But the muscular bearded transmen won't want to break the law, so as a woman(defined by law) she or he will have to use the women's,or risk being placed on the sex register.

Stop being so dramatic, I heard a transwoman yesterday say she was going to continue to use the ladies...pretty sure transmen will do the same with the mens, if they ever used them, because honestly that must the be worse part of being a man ...using the mens

[BBXX]

All it requires is social norms to be returned to what they were 20 years ago, before the world turned to ****

So no blood donation from gay men? No 2007 Equality Act? No adoption for same sex couples in Scotland? No gay marriage? No strides towards legislations to ban conversion therapy?

Sorry, did we ask for too much with the above? Yikes!

[Swan]

So no blood donation from gay men? No 2007 Equality Act? No adoption for same sex couples in Scotland? No gay marriage? No strides towards legislations to ban conversion therapy?

Sorry, did we ask for too much with the above? Yikes!

I don't think anybody is saying that.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't think anybody is saying that.

Nope

[user104658]

So no blood donation from gay men? No 2007 Equality Act? No adoption for same sex couples in Scotland? No gay marriage? No strides towards legislations to ban conversion therapy?

Sorry, did we ask for too much with the above? Yikes!

On reflection I think "20 years ago" is extreme, the issues really weren't apparent until maybe only 5-7 years ago, when there started being an expectation of "unquestioning self-ID" and established gender ideology being completely rewritten. That's not to say that everything was perfect - just that the direction that was taken at that point was, ultimately, detrimental. There's no real argument that it wasn't to everyone's detriment. Where we are now is awful, precarious and (socially) yes I would say worse than 20 years ago.

[BBXX]

I don't think anybody is saying that.

Returning to "the societal norms of 20 years ago" would remove a lot of advances that came about in the last 20 years. These advances are achieved through societal pressure and change in societal attitudes.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Author Andrew Doyle:

If any proof were needed of the power accumulated by activists, consider how
many companies and institutions have claimed they’ll ignore the Supreme Court
ruling on sex in the Equality Act.

Such is their narcissism and entitlement that they genuinely think they’re above
the law.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Times Newspaper Poll:

The sad unelectable Greens are backing the 4% :skull:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gpmwc4hWMAAFwHI?format=jpg&name=small

[BBXX]

On reflection I think "20 years ago" is extreme, the issues really weren't apparent until maybe only 5-7 years ago, when there started being an expectation of "unquestioning self-ID" and established gender ideology being completely rewritten. That's not to say that everything was perfect - just that the direction that was taken at that point was, ultimately, detrimental. There's no real argument that it wasn't to everyone's detriment. Where we are now is awful, precarious and (socially) yes I would say worse than 20 years ago.

I think there is merit to say society as a whole is more at war with one another than 20 years ago and that does come from both sides of the political spectrum - anger and vengeance from the left and scaremongering and facism from the right. Most people however sit somewhere in the centre - left or right of it - and get on just fine with those around them.

I think social media makes things worse and emboldens everyone from all sides, however I think that extreme rhetoric is not present with most day-to-day in real life.


However, from a LGBT perspective, things are better than 20 years ago when we weren't able to adopt or marry or give blood.

However that is not to say I think tides aren't turning. I do think there are, from certain corners, of as you mentioned above, perceptions that LGBT people have "asked for too much", but the very notion of that being a legitimate concern is gross. The world is not straight people's to govern and decide how much rope they give us.

They don't get to throw down a ladder and expect LGBT people to stay on the 2nd step while they stand on the 4th, and then cry when we also want to be on the fourth alongside them.

[Parmy]

Stop being so dramatic, I heard a transwoman yesterday say she was going to continue to use the ladies...pretty sure transmen will do the same with the mens, if they ever used them, because honestly that must the be worse part of being a man ...using the mens

Truth can be dramatic sometimes for you, I get that!


But if they are found in the wrong toilets they will be going on the sex register if it's a repeat offence, Mark my words.

This isn't a simple fix. People are forgetting the flip side of this andate forgetting the women who id as men, or perhaps not bothered as much about them as they do your day to day woman...perhaps they see them as freaks or something, I dunno:shrug:

[user104658]

I think there is merit to say society as a whole is more at war with one another than 20 years ago and that does come from both sides of the political spectrum - anger and vengeance from the left and scaremongering and facism from the right. Most people however sit somewhere in the centre - left or right of it - and get on just fine with those around them.

I think social media makes things worse and emboldens everyone from all sides, however I think that extreme rhetoric is not present with most day-to-day in real life.


However, from a LGBT perspective, things are better than 20 years ago when we weren't able to adopt or marry or give blood.

However that is not to say I think tides aren't turning. I do think there are, from certain corners, of as you mentioned above, perceptions that LGBT people have "asked for too much", but the very notion of that being a legitimate concern is gross. The world is not straight people's to govern and decide how much rope they give us.

They don't get to throw down a ladder and expect LGBT people to stay on the 2nd step while they stand on the 4th, and then cry when we also want to be on the fourth alongside them.

I agree in principle other than when the things that are being requested have safeguarding implications (which there have been) or when what's being demanded is a limitation or ending of open academic discourse (which has happened)... and I also object to the frequent gaslighting that those things have NOT happened. Anyone in even vague proximity to the psychology/sociology surrounding this knows it's a dumpster fire.

I'm genuinely all for people living the life they want to live as far as is possible, but individual "I feels" will never take precedence over robust academic evidence... And that's part of what people want.

[bots]

Laws are really created around the paths of least friction in society. The moment other considerations are brought into it, there is always trouble. What we have these days is an abundance of considerations created by all sorts of conflicting pressure groups. It never works out well

[BBXX]

I agree in principle other than when the things that are being requested have safeguarding implications (which there have been) or when what's being demanded is a limitation or ending of open academic discourse (which has happened)... and I also object to the frequent gaslighting that those things have NOT happened. Anyone in even vague proximity to the psychology/sociology surrounding this knows it's a dumpster fire.

I'm genuinely all for people living the life they want to live as far as is possible, but individual "I feels" will never take precedence over robust academic evidence... And that's part of what people want.

I understand that but it would be interesting to know specifically which safeguarding issues you think the equal rights (ie: to exist alongside straight people) of LGBT people have caused?

And equally which academic evidence is being ended in lieu of demands (and which demands). Without specifics I can’t really give any truthful reply in agreement or otherwise.

I can make assumptions of what I think you mean based on previous discourse in this thread but that isn’t helpful

[user104658]

I understand that but it would be interesting to know specifically which safeguarding issues you think the equal rights (ie: to exist alongside straight people) of LGBT people have caused?

And equally which academic evidence is being ended in lieu of demands (and which demands). Without specifics I can’t really give any truthful reply in agreement or otherwise.

I can make assumptions of what I think you mean based on previous discourse in this thread but that isn’t helpful


They are part and parcel of the same issue - I know (not know of, personally know) some highly regarded academics who have been unable to write, or at the very least unable to openly publish, sociology and research papers on gender-related issues due to being harassed, doxxed and threatened for any hint of engaging in good faith gender study, rather than default gender acceptance.

If the research is vetoed before it can even begin and yet space-access is demanded, then safeguarding concerns can't even begin to be addressed. The argument is then that "there is no evidence of..." which is an entirely meaningless statement when people trying to discover the evidence either way are doxxed and threatened into submission before they can complete the research. That is, of course, the intention.

For the most part there are a few overzealous organisations that were originally at the root of it all. Stonewall, Mermaids, et al. But it quickly became the accepted rhetoric, and the eventual (inevitable) backlash has been catastrophic for the entire LGBT community.

[Mystic Mock]

What about all the female teachers in the UK who've abused young boy pupils? I've seen many a headline about that over the course of my life. It does happen way more than you think but the victims are way less likely to report the woman who violated them.

I should've clarified about meaning adult men are less likely to be sexually assaulted by women.

Granted you've definitely made an interesting point that I know that even South Park covered a few Seasons ago about female Teachers and Paedophilia.

And from my personal point of view I'm not personally that invested either way about if Transwomen use the women's bathroom or not.

I am personally happy that some Sports have tried to separate Transwomen from competing in women's Sports, because I do feel like there is a biological advantage there, and that women are having opportunities taken away from them, which I think is especially bad in cases where the female version of the Sport has only just started becoming more mainstream.

I personally in an ideal world would like to see Transwomen versions of these Sports, so that they can also compete in a fair competition with less judgment being flung their way.

[Mystic Mock]

It does happen but it's waaaaayyy less common than the other way around, even accounting for cases that aren't officially reported. You're potentially over-estimating the percentage of male-abuser cases that are reported. Most of those are, sadly, unreported too - or only reported historically when the woman reaches adulthood (very unlikely to result in charges, or often reported after the abuser has died).

Fair point.

[Mystic Mock]

Yeah, I agree, although you men are filthy beggers in public toilets, womens public toilets are usually pretty clean, Gav tells me the mens are usually minging

Gav is not wrong.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

One of the first places I worked had to have £15000 of work done because when they went to replace the flooring in the men's toilets, they discovered that the floorboards themselves were so soaked in piss that the entire room had to be pulled out and rebuilt from the ground up.

That's how bad some men's toilets are :joker:

Yuck!D:

I remember going into a men's Bathroom in Burger King once, and there was no Toilet roll in any of the cubicles.:umm2:

And yes I checked them all as nobody else was in there at the time.

I was only about 10 years old at the time, mortifying doesn't even begin to describe it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Scottish Football Association set to ban "transgender women" competing in
women's football

The move comes after the UK Supreme Court announced that the Equality Act's
definition of a woman is based on biological sex.

It means that from next season, only those born biologically female will be allowed to take part in competitive matches in the women's game in Scotland. (madness it ever was tbh)

The BBC reports that the new policy will apply to all competitive football in
Scotland, including the grassroots game from under-13s and over.

[Zizu]

Scottish Football Association set to ban "transgender women" competing in
women's football

The move comes after the UK Supreme Court announced that the Equality Act's
definition of a woman is based on biological sex.

It means that from next season, only those born biologically female will be allowed to take part in competitive matches in the women's game in Scotland. (madness it ever was tbh)

The BBC reports that the new policy will apply to all competitive football in
Scotland, including the grassroots game from under-13s and over.


Interesting

Wasn’t Chelsea’s star striker a bloke ?

I saw her/him/them racing through the opposition defence a few weeks ago with players bouncing off her /him left , right and centre backs !

They looked around 6’ and walked like a docker https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250429/b549264fac73adaf87e952d7a069c907.jpg

[bots]

my cousin was over 6ft tall and she used to arm wrestle with men down the pub. Women come in all shapes and sizes, just like men do

[Crimson Dynamo]

Currently the English FA do allow male sex trangender women to play against women but Id imagine this will now change

[bots]

contracts etc will be allowed to expire so i wouldn't expect immediate changes

[Cherie]

Scottish Football Association set to ban "transgender women" competing in
women's football

The move comes after the UK Supreme Court announced that the Equality Act's
definition of a woman is based on biological sex.

It means that from next season, only those born biologically female will be allowed to take part in competitive matches in the women's game in Scotland. (madness it ever was tbh)

The BBC reports that the new policy will apply to all competitive football in
Scotland, including the grassroots game from under-13s and over.

The bathroom law...

[Livia]

Trans women banned by the FA from the women's game from 1st May. Finally, common sense prevails.

[Niamh.]

This is a good article

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/apr/30/stonewall-policy-of-no-debate-on-trans-rights-was-a-mistake?fbclid=IwY2xjawKAMm5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBicmlkE TFsVFBkNmJyMG1ZR3YzeGp1AR6SAx9qEazEDvK5W0gFkIAG-W1WHPuzvvT5c2VOxX2cjn3zH7JlL_JcrBc3aw_aem_9EGJH66z A8rxPFvTVH6JhA

Stonewall’s policy of ‘no debate’ on trans rights was a mistake
The LGBTQ+ rights charity’s former head Ben Summerskill and the parent of a trans-identifying young person respond to coverage of the recent supreme court ruling

Both Gaby Hinsliff, in her typically thoughtful piece (If Britain is now resetting the clock on trans rights, where will that leave us?, 18 April), and your correspondent who says “All sensible, two-way discussion of this topic has been prevented” (Letters, 22 April) highlight the risks that both trans people and many other individuals and organisations face from continuing uncertainty over an important area of public policy.

Sadly, a significant contribution to the prevention of sensible, two-way discussion of this sensitive issue was Stonewall’s 2015 decision to adopt an approach of “no debate” – online, on public platforms and in the broadcast media. This has now had huge reputational and financial consequences for the charity, where dozens of staff have since faced redundancy.

A core message for charities and all advocates for social justice from this regrettable situation might be that campaigning by diktat rather than persuasion is very rarely successful. Winning folk over to your position while recognising and addressing their anxieties, while very hard work, is usually a better way of securing legislative and social progress that can be embedded and lasts. If you decline even to enter a debate, you rarely win it.
Ben Summerskill
Chief executive, Stonewall, 2003-14

I am the parent of a trans-identified young person who has nuanced views of the debate on sex and gender (Editorial, 23 April). The reason the supreme court ruling feels like such a threat to the trans community is because for the last decade activists have misled them about the existing law, staked everything on the complete erasure of sex as a meaningful category in society, and framed any dissent as bigotry, transphobia or worse.

It has been catastrophic for a generation of trans-identified youth to have been misled into thinking that their wellbeing is dependent on everyone in society colluding in a pretence that biological sex can simply be overridden by gender identity, irrespective of context. The consequences are all too apparent in the distressed response to what is a compassionate legal ruling that balances the rights of trans people (under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment) while identifying the specific contexts where sex will be relevant too.

[arista]

Trans women banned by the FA from the women's game from 1st May. Finally, common sense prevails.


On SkyNewsHD they said it comes in on June 1st


It's on their ticker


They are only following the Judge.

So it had to be done

[user104658]

This is a good article

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/apr/30/stonewall-policy-of-no-debate-on-trans-rights-was-a-mistake?fbclid=IwY2xjawKAMm5leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBicmlkE TFsVFBkNmJyMG1ZR3YzeGp1AR6SAx9qEazEDvK5W0gFkIAG-W1WHPuzvvT5c2VOxX2cjn3zH7JlL_JcrBc3aw_aem_9EGJH66z A8rxPFvTVH6JhA

Stonewall’s policy of ‘no debate’ on trans rights was a mistake

That's what I've been saying for years and one of the most frustrating parts of the whole debate - so often met with people saying "but there's not evidence that..." when there has been a clear, hard-line and often very aggressive long campaign to stop any research or study being done that would yield evidence either way.

I've even always said my stance on the whole thing could change IF anyone could provide robust evidence for why decisions were being made that seemed accurate and reasonable ... but it's impossible to get to the truth when you have people attacking anyone who dares to look for it.

[Niamh.]

That's what I've been saying for years and one of the most frustrating parts of the whole debate - so often met with people saying "but there's not evidence that..." when there has been a clear, hard-line and often very aggressive long campaign to stop any research or study being done that would yield evidence either way.

I've even always said my stance on the whole thing could change IF anyone could provide robust evidence for why decisions were being made that seemed accurate and reasonable ... but it's impossible to get to the truth when you have people attacking anyone who dares to look for it.

Yep. It seems like a lot of common sense was ignored and peoples concerns were dismissed as "phobic" It isn't a good strategy to just shut people down by trying to shame or threaten them, that will only work for so long before people say no

[user104658]

Yep. It seems like a lot of common sense was ignored and peoples concerns were dismissed as "phobic" It isn't a good strategy to just shut people down by trying to shame or threaten them, that will only work for so long before people say no

Yes plus a culture of "any request for compromise = bad and the enemy" and the inevitable outcome of that was not a successful forcing of no compromise... it was an increasing tendency for people to not bother trying to find one.

[Niamh.]

Yes plus a culture of "any request for compromise = bad and the enemy" and the inevitable outcome of that was not a successful forcing of no compromise... it was an increasing tendency for people to not bother trying to find one.

Not to mention the gas-lighting which there was A LOT of

[Cherie]

Labour has postponed its women’s conference because of the risk of protests and legal challenge following the Supreme Court ruling on gender.

The party’s ruling National Executive Committee (NEC) voted on Tuesday to postpone the event, which was due to take place in September, pending a review.

A leaked advice paper had recommended postponing it because the “only legally defensible alternative” would be to restrict attendance to biological women.

The NEC also decided to extend the terms of those serving on the National Labour Women’s Committee until a conference takes place and elections can be held.

A Labour Party spokesperson said the party must make sure all its procedures “comply with the Supreme Court’s clear ruling” and that it would make any changes required with “sensitivity and care”

The Supreme Court ruled in April that the terms “woman” and “sex” in the 2010 Equality Act “refer to a biological woman and biological sex”.

The party will interpret measures relating to women on the basis of biological sex at birth, it is understood.

Labour had previously operated its “positive action” measures on the basis of self-identification, allowing transgender women to take part.

A leaked advice paper produced for the NEC meeting recommended postponing the women’s conference on September 27 because “there is a significant risk of legal challenge to the event as it currently operates” and “there may be protests, direct action and heightened security risks” if it goes ahead.

That could carry a “political risk” of overshadowing the party’s showcase autumn conference which begins the following day.

The recommendation in the paper was to postpone the women’s conference pending a wider review of positive action measures.

The paper also says the party should issue guidance to make clear that all-women shortlists can only apply to “applicants who were biologically female at birth”.

Labour did not use all-women shortlists at the last general election.

A Labour Party spokesperson said: “Like all other organisations, the Labour Party must ensure all party procedures comply with the Supreme Court’s clear ruling.


“Labour is clear that everyone in our society deserves to be treated with dignity and respect.

“The party will work closely with individuals and local parties to implement the necessary changes with sensitivity and care.”

It is understood Labour will respect the Supreme Court judgment and comply with statutory guidance when it is published.


The Independent

:joker:

Just cancel the conference, its just wimmin innit

[Mystic Mock]

Interesting

Wasn’t Chelsea’s star striker a bloke ?

I saw her/him/them racing through the opposition defence a few weeks ago with players bouncing off her /him left , right and centre backs !

They looked around 6’ and walked like a docker https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250429/b549264fac73adaf87e952d7a069c907.jpg

Apparently in the UK there are 30 Transwomen that play in the women's Football pyramid, and they're all amateur players.

So I don't think that Chelsea player is Transgender.

[arista]

In todays Daily Telegraph.


[Shops and leisure centres can question
transgender people about their
biological sex before letting them
use changing rooms, the equalities
watchdog has said.
Those who appear to be lying can legally
be refused entry as long as they are not
asked in a rude or offensive manner,
according to updated guidance from
the Equality and
Human Rights Commission (EHRC).

Gyms and hospitals could legally ask
people to provide birth certificates
or passports to prove their biological sex.

The watchdog said trans people could
legally be shut out of anywhere where
women were likely to be in a state of undress.

Last month a Cabinet minister insisted
there would be no “toilet police”
stopping trans women from using
women’s lavatories.

Pat McFadden, the Cabinet Office minister,
said the “logical consequence”
of the Supreme Court ruling was that
everyone should use the facilities
of their biological gender.]


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/05/20/shops-can-question-trans-people-in-changing-rooms/

[Kate!]

Good

[Cherie]

It is the law Arista

[Livia]

What's the problem?

[Glenn.]

Can’t wait for trans men to cause a stir in the their ‘biological’ toilet.

[Livia]

Can’t wait for trans men to cause a stir in the their ‘biological’ toilet.

So long as they don't have a cock I'd be fine with them.

[Cherie]

So long as they don't have a cock I'd be fine with them.

They are more than welcome, don't hear much from trans men at any rate, its all about the transwomen...

[Parmy]

Can’t wait for trans men to cause a stir in the their ‘biological’ toilet.

You mean a woman in a womans toilet.

[Glenn.]

You mean a woman in a womans toilet.


But with beards

[Liam-]

Even more butch lesbians being harassed by workers for not being feminine enough for their standards of women

[Cherie]

I have to laugh, suddenly they care about lesbians, though they had no issue with lesbians being called transphobes if they didn't fancy having it off with a transwoman...dear me

[Cherie]

Does every transman have a beard :think:

[Glenn.]

Does every transman have a beard :think:

No but a LOT will

[Glenn.]

The hilarity of “does every trans man” though when trans women are all tarred with the same brush as a few wrong’uns

I’ll never understand heteros

[Parmy]

But with beards

At least they will feel more comfortable doing a sit down pee, and a little less embarrassed.

[Glenn.]

That’s after they get a pass from the weirdo genital police at the door.

[Vicky.]

Asking for birth certificate or passport is pointless for many as these get changed when you get a GRC.

The transman point.. the supreme court covered that in their guidance, if a female has taken steps to look sufficiently masculine they can be banned from female areas.

I can't seem transmen kicking up a fuss though tbh. They grew up female, they know how female people think..they won't want to potentially scare people, I imagine passing transmen will continue using male areas

Interesting that suddenly we are hearing about transmen though. Usually they are totally forgotten

[Maru]

But with beards

I mean.. a beard doesn't make someone a man so that would be fine to me. It'd be like washing my hands next to a woman with crazy overgrown armpit hair. It stands out but not offensive or anything.

They're still women technically so they're socialized as such. For women, socialization is much more key and we rely on that to adapt on average than men. I knew a transman from high school who was a bestie and they still at heart had female thinking and boundaries well ingrained... it's not like they lost that? A man looking to cause trouble doesn't know good behavior and will openly try to dominate as such. Sorry, I have history with harassment to that level like so many women, so know what men are more willing to do in private and they're not wallflowers as such as they get something out of intimidating targets. There is a reason to have a visceral reaction to the relaxing of the boundary that allows biomen into those space, but transmen are not even a thought for me. In fact, I think they would more understand the differences in that make this a crossing of lines for many women.

The level of threat and insidious need to dominate that one can experience from a man is not based on appearance or other hidden differences but rather behavior that is biologically ingrained to be predatory that no hormone pill or surgery can hope to remove if it is there.

I have yet to see any biological woman (trans or not) try to emulate these deeply ingrained male instincts. Not only is that not socially desirable but women by their nature tend to be highly socialized. I don't think you really can emulate strongly adapted biological instincts to that deep of a level and that is a very big one to try... it certainly couldn't be pilled in. And it's those characteristics that we don't want anywhere near any aspect of private female social life.

[Cherie]

Am in Cambridge on the way back now while waiting for my friend to arrive popped into Cafe Nero opposite the station the one lockable cubicle is now unisex with a separate disabled toilet next door...no drama just amused me that men had to queue like women have for years lol

It wasn't like this when I last visited so you can thank trans women for your queue gents ��

[Oliver_W]

Again I'll say the simplest solution would be for the two toilets to be for:
(cis) Women
Everyone Else

[Vicky.]

Again I'll say the simplest solution would be for the two toilets to be for:
(cis) Women
Everyone Else

Same for sport

[BBXX]

In todays Daily Telegraph.


[Shops and leisure centres can question
transgender people about their
biological sex before letting them
use changing rooms, the equalities
watchdog has said.
Those who appear to be lying can legally
be refused entry as long as they are not
asked in a rude or offensive manner,
according to updated guidance from
the Equality and
Human Rights Commission (EHRC).

Gyms and hospitals could legally ask
people to provide birth certificates
or passports to prove their biological sex.

The watchdog said trans people could
legally be shut out of anywhere where
women were likely to be in a state of undress.

Last month a Cabinet minister insisted
there would be no “toilet police”
stopping trans women from using
women’s lavatories.

Pat McFadden, the Cabinet Office minister,
said the “logical consequence”
of the Supreme Court ruling was that
everyone should use the facilities
of their biological gender.]


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/05/20/shops-can-question-trans-people-in-changing-rooms/

LOVE this for women. What a win :love::love: It's such a leap forward that some women may now have to prove their biological sex when they want to take a pee. :dance:

[Crimson Dynamo]

LOVE this for women. What a win :love::love: It's such a leap forward that some women may now have to prove their biological sex when they want to take a pee. :dance:

what an odd attitude :conf:

[BBXX]

The transman point.. the supreme court covered that in their guidance, if a female has taken steps to look sufficiently masculine they can be banned from female areas.

It's almost like it's not about biological sex being important in the slightest then.

Anyone supporting this ruling should have a major issue with the above caveat and if you don't, it shows you don't care about women or biological sex at all, you just hate trans people.

Irrespective of the hypocrisy, who decides what is 'sufficiently masculine' and why are we letting other people decide define what passes as woman or man on the basis of appearance. ****ing archaic.

[BBXX]

what an odd attitude :conf:

Just because you don't understand something it doesn't make it odd. Hope that helps.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Just because you don't understand something it doesn't make it odd. Hope that helps.

Well I don't understand Pakistani grooming gangs

for a kick off

do you want me to continue?

:conf:

[BBXX]

Well I don't understand Pakistani grooming gangs

for a kick off

do you want me to continue?

:conf:

Sometimes people think things odd because they don't understand it. Sometimes people think things are odd because they are odd. :shrug:

[Vicky.]

It's almost like it's not about biological sex being important in the slightest then.

Anyone supporting this ruling should have a major issue with the above caveat and if you don't, it shows you don't care about women or biological sex at all, you just hate trans people.

Irrespective of the hypocrisy, who decides what is 'sufficiently masculine' and why are we letting other people decide define what passes as woman or man on the basis of appearance. ****ing archaic.

That was my words not the court. The sufficiently masculine part.

It makes sense to me. It's about biological sex but if someone has taken steps to be perceived as male then yes they will cause distress to others on a female only space.

But basically 'but transmen' is not an argument

[BBXX]

That was my words not the court. The sufficiently masculine part.

It makes sense to me. It's about biological sex but if someone has taken steps to be perceived as male then yes they will cause distress to others on a female only space.

But basically 'but transmen' is not an argument

But what about the Trans Men you view as biological women? Do those biological women not count?

You're advocating for cis women not to share spaces with biological men while at the same time happy that some Trans men (who you happily call female because you see them as women) are sharing space with biological men.

So really, your care for biological sex only extends so far, meaning it's not about biological sex at all and moreover, your care for biological women only extends to cis biological women and so you don't really care about biological women at all. You just don't like trans women and you don't care about trans men.

[Vicky.]

Transmen are biological women. I would have thought the court giving an answer to that would be a good thing. After all, now no cis men can enter female only spaces by pretending to be transmen. Which was apparently concerning to people.

[Vicky.]

Also men are not as much in need of single sex spaces. If they are then I guess it's up to them to complain and such.

[Liam-]

It's almost like it's not about biological sex being important in the slightest then.

Anyone supporting this ruling should have a major issue with the above caveat and if you don't, it shows you don't care about women or biological sex at all, you just hate trans people.

Irrespective of the hypocrisy, who decides what is 'sufficiently masculine' and why are we letting other people decide define what passes as woman or man on the basis of appearance. ****ing archaic.

At least people are finally being honest about it now, even though this was the obvious truth from the very beginning

[BBXX]

Transmen are biological women. I would have thought the court giving an answer to that would be a good thing. After all, now no cis men can enter female only spaces by pretending to be transmen. Which was apparently concerning to people.

Yes, that's great. Fantastic news. And it's great news that Trans Men get to use the male facilities. It's what I was advocating for the whole time.

I just find it so interesting that your whole argument has been biological women shouldn't be sharing spaces with biological men, and yet you're okay with trans men using the male facilities... am I on glue, or is that not also biological women and biological men sharing a space?

Can you explain something for me as to why one is okay and the other isn't?

[BBXX]

Also men are not as much in need of single sex spaces. If they are then I guess it's up to them to complain and such.

It's not really about men being unsafe. It's about sending trans women into male spaces for men to kick the **** in to them, to be blunt.

[BBXX]

At least people are finally being honest about it now, even though this was the obvious truth from the very beginning

I don't really think they're even being honest, I think they're tripping up over their own hypocrisy.

[Livia]

Trans women suggested we use disabled toilets if we didn't like them in women's toilets. I suggest they take their own advice.

[Cherie]

Trans women suggested we use disabled toilets if we didn't like them in women's toilets. I suggest they take their own advice.

Indeed and as I indicated earlier establishments have already taken steps by turning single toilets into unisex also as has been said on numerous occasions toilets are a distraction technique...refuges sports jobs all much more important but don't let that get in the way of 'worrying' about peeing

[Crimson Dynamo]

Thankfully women and girls will now be able to feel safe again

that is progress

[Cherie]

It's not really about men being unsafe. It's about sending trans women into male spaces for men to kick the **** in to them, to be blunt.

Have you evidence of that happening since the ruling?

[Vicky.]

Yes, that's great. Fantastic news. And it's great news that Trans Men get to use the male facilities. It's what I was advocating for the whole time.

I just find it so interesting that your whole argument has been biological women shouldn't be sharing spaces with biological men, and yet you're okay with trans men using the male facilities... am I on glue, or is that not also biological women and biological men sharing a space?

Can you explain something for me as to why one is okay and the other isn't?
Because women need space away from male people in certain circumstances. Due to (some) mens treatment of women and just..privacy reasons. If men are concerned about single sex spaces then they can lobby and such

[BBXX]

Have you evidence of that happening since the ruling?

I haven't looked, but you cannot ignore the fact trans women are 4x more likely to be a victim of violence than cis gender people. Do you really honestly think a trans woman is safer in the male changing rooms than the female ones? Are cis women really that violent?

[BBXX]

Because women need space away from male people in certain circumstances. Due to (some) mens treatment of women and just..privacy reasons. If men are concerned about single sex spaces then they can lobby and such

What about the trans men, who you call females and biological women? You seem happy for them to share spaces with biological men? I thought women needed space away from men? I'm confused.

[Vicky.]

What about the trans men, who you call females and biological women? You seem happy for them to share spaces with biological men? I thought women needed space away from men? I'm confused.

I do not care if transmen want to use male spaces. That's up to them and the males.

[BBXX]

I do not care if transmen want to use male spaces. That's up to them and the males.

You called them female before, that's all. And then biological women. And I was just confused why you don't care about that subsection of "females/biological women" sharing spaces with biological men and only the cis biological women. But nevermind, I digress...

[Vicky.]

It's transmens choice if they wish to use male spaces imo. Unless men complain about that, in which case a discussion needs to be had (not #nodebate stonewall)

[Crimson Dynamo]

:clap1:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Grfvd8EXkAAMHsA?format=jpg&name=small

[Livia]

There is no such thing as cis women.

Women
Trans women
Men
Trans men

I do not need a title imposed on me for the benefit of a tiny subsection of society.

[Livia]

:clap1:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Grfvd8EXkAAMHsA?format=jpg&name=small

It's not difficult to grasp, is it.

[bots]

how many cases have there been reported about men feeling threatened by a trans man using their toilet? Surely it was a big issue prior to this ruling?

[Parmy]

I haven't looked, but you cannot ignore the fact trans women are 4x more likely to be a victim of violence than cis gender people. Do you really honestly think a trans woman is safer in the male changing rooms than the female ones? Are cis women really that violent?

Do you have any stats on how likely they are to commit sexual violence towards female children than a woman is?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Do you have any stats on how likely they are to commit sexual violence towards female children than a woman is?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce39v5k0gx2o.amp

[BBXX]

It's transmens choice if they wish to use male spaces imo. Unless men complain about that, in which case a discussion needs to be had (not #nodebate stonewall)

Okay cool. But you’re fine with them using women’s spaces too, if they want to?

[BBXX]

There is no such thing as cis women.

Women
Trans women
Men
Trans men

I do not need a title imposed on me for the benefit of a tiny subsection of society.

Nobody is forcing you to use it. Cis is an adjective that has been used for a long, long time. If you want to not use words that fine. If you don’t wish to be called it, that’s also fine and I won’t call you specifically a cis woman, but you don’t get deny words just because they trigger you.

[BBXX]

Do you have any stats on how likely they are to commit sexual violence towards female children than a woman is?

No. There is data to suggest (though this has partly been discredited) they are more likely to commit a violent crime than cis woman, however there is no data on who the victim is.

Between 2013 - 2023, the number of rape/sexual offences in the UK that took place in a public bathroom was 210 over a 10 year period. That's 21 cases a year. So approximately 0.010% of all of rape/sexual assault cases. Most of them will have been committed by straight, cis men.

[Cherie]

No. There is data to suggest (though this has partly been discredited) they are more likely to commit a violent crime than cis woman, however there is no data on who the victim is.

Between 2013 - 2023, the number of rape/sexual offences in the UK that took place in a public bathroom was 210 over a 10 year period. That's 21 cases a year. So approximately 0.010% of all of rape/sexual assault cases. Most of them will have been committed by straight, cis men.


So all those offences have been committed on transwomen?

[Maru]

It's transmens choice if they wish to use male spaces imo. Unless men complain about that, in which case a discussion needs to be had (not #nodebate stonewall)

Personally I would not walk into a man's space without men's permission, so that's generally where I've left it.

[BBXX]

So all those offences have been committed on transwomen?

No, sorry if unclear. That’s all cases regardless of the victims demographic.

My point was in that setting it counts from such a small amount of overall cases that the suggestion trans women aren’t facing this massive threat to cis women in this scenario is not true.

[Mystic Mock]

:clap1:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Grfvd8EXkAAMHsA?format=jpg&name=small

Lesbians are throwing a party at the last part.:wink:

I had to play on one negative stereotype from this article.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

Do you have any stats on how likely they are to commit sexual violence towards female children than a woman is?

Tbf the same can be said for biological men as well.

[Cherie]

No, sorry if unclear. That’s all cases regardless of the victims demographic.

My point was in that setting it counts from such a small amount of overall cases that the suggestion trans women aren’t facing this massive threat to cis women in this scenario is not true.

It doesn't matter how small the threat is, and the fact is self ID increased the thread exponentially not just in bathrooms but in sport, in the workplace, in refuges, hell even in rape crisis centres where in Scotland one centre had a transwoman in charge, I could walk down the street at night and 99 times out of a 100 I would be okay but there is that 1 per cent chance I would not, women got on fine for years with transwomen and we accommodated them with no issue but when it gets to the point rapists were considered to be okay to go to womens prisons because they self ID while in custody and this ideology was backed by politicians, and women in sport were being put at a disadvantage and at risk, womens refuges were no longer a safe haven the time had come to say no.

[Parmy]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce39v5k0gx2o.amp

https://news.sky.com/story/transgender-butcher-admits-abducting-and-sexually-abusing-schoolgirl-12883405

[Livia]

It doesn't matter how small the threat is, and the fact is self ID increased the thread exponentially not just in bathrooms but in sport, in the workplace, in refuges, hell even in rape crisis centres where in Scotland one centre had a transwoman in charge, I could walk down the street at night and 99 times out of a 100 I would be okay but there is that 1 per cent chance I would not, women got on fine for years with transwomen and we accommodated them with no issue but when it gets to the point rapists were considered to be okay to go to womens prisons because they self ID while in custody and this ideology was backed by politicians, and women in sport were being put at a disadvantage and at risk, womens refuges were no longer a safe haven the time had come to say no.

Great post, agree with all of that.

[Vicky.]

Okay cool. But you’re fine with them using women’s spaces too, if they want to?

If they don't pass yes. If this is the case then they will probably be at risk in the mens. Most transmen I have met just look a bit butch. But testosterone is strong stuff so I know it's quite possible for them to fully pass

[Vicky.]

Lesbians are throwing a party at the last part.:wink:

I had to play on one negative stereotype from this article.:laugh:

Lesbian groups have been under attack for some time now. Being told they are transphobic for not dating/including transwomen. Look up 'cotton ceiling'. It's all quite vile.

[Mystic Mock]

Lesbian groups have been under attack for some time now. Being told they are transphobic for not dating/including transwomen. Look up 'cotton ceiling'. It's all quite vile.

Oh I know that there has been a strenuous relationship between some of the Lesbian community and some of the Transwomen for awhile now.

Hopefully it'll all calm down between both sides eventually.

[Parmy]

Lesbian groups have been under attack for some time now. Being told they are transphobic for not dating/including transwomen. Look up 'cotton ceiling'. It's all quite vile.

Reading between the lines.

Ugly men, can't get a woman, so turn into a woman, thinking it makes them more appealing.:hehe:

Find out it doesn't.:fist: so take it out on women.:shrug:

[BBXX]

Yes, there are some extremists who think it's transphobic to not want to date a trans person - I have a problem with that and it feels gay-erasure-esque. However it's a tiny minority of a minority. It feels hyperbolic to say lesbians are "under attack".

It's so weird because whenever minorities are discussed, conversation always turns to the extremists within that group, the group that by far do not represent the majority of people within that demographic. It happens all the time.

This whole conversation has been hyperbolic in fact, this idea that trans women are some extreme threat to women because of a few isolated incidences where a trans woman existing has negatively effected a cis woman.

A recent study showed that a third of men would rape a woman if they thought there'd be no consequences/nobody would ever find out. A third of straight cis University students. A third. But instead the world seems to focus on trans women being this insane threat to every other woman out there. Give me a break.

[BBXX]

If they don't pass yes. If this is the case then they will probably be at risk in the mens. Most transmen I have met just look a bit butch. But testosterone is strong stuff so I know it's quite possible for them to fully pass

That's fine, thanks for admitting it's not about the importance of biological sex at all, it's just about how they look.

It's interesting trans men are given the "for their safety they can use the bathroom they are most safe in" but trans women aren't granted that pass. Patriarchy, amirite?

[Niamh.]

So it's not about biological sex but also it's the "Patriarchy" when transwomen (biological men are exculded) seems like the opposite of Patriarchy to me

[BBXX]

So it's not about biological sex but also it's the "Patriarchy" when transwomen (biological men are exculded) seems like the opposite of Patriarchy to me

It's patriarchal because you're giving those living life as a man a pass on which spaces they can use depending on where they feel most safe, while limiting the spaces some people living as women get access to.

Who'd have thought living life as a man granted you extra privileges. A tale as old as time. Shame so many women in this thread are upholding it.

[Niamh.]

It's patriarchal because you're giving those living life as a man a pass on which spaces they can use depending on where they feel most safe, while limiting the spaces some people living as women get access to.



Who'd have thought living life as a man granted you extra privileges. A tale as old as time. Shame so many women in this thread are upholding it.Unfortunately that's not how it works, we can't just opt in to male privilege. Odd how you think we're the only group that can opt in to privilege though,

[BBXX]

Unfortunately that's not how it works, we can't just opt in to male privilege. Odd how you think we're the only group that can opt in to privilege though,

Every group has their own set of privileges, of course. I'm just talking about this specific example with that specific opinion.

[Niamh.]

Every group has their own set of privileges, of course. I'm just talking about this specific example with that specific opinion.Mmhhmm sure you are, you sound like the Patriarchy to me trying to take away women only spaces and then gaslight women who say no, a tale as old as time unfortunately

[BBXX]

Mmhhmm sure you are, you sound like the Patriarchy to me trying to take away women only spaces and then gaslight women who say no, a tale as old as time unfortunately

My opinion has nothing to do with women, it has everything to do with trans people.

You think my opinion is to do with women because you see trans women as men, and I don't.

I'm not gaslighting anyone, I'm disagreeing and pointing out flaws in the latest argument that trans men's identity is valid or not depending on how they look (they can use woman's facilities if they don't pass), but a trans woman's identity is never valid.

It seems completely hypocritical to talk about the importance of the law and what it states, and the importance of it being rooted in bioloigcal sex but then switching and saying "Hey, even though I view you as a woman, despite you identifying as a man, I'm going to have to ask you to use break the law and use the mens because...well you look too butch". I mean it's a win for the trans man because they get to use the facilities they want, but it's hypocritical and inconsistent.

It's a viewpoint that undermines both the law and the importance of biological sex that so many of you have been using as reasoning for trans women to be kept separate from cis women. So I ask, is it important or not?

I would say no, it's not important and everyone should have the same privilege as everyone else to use the facilities for the gender they are living life as. Vicky would say: it depends if they have facial hair. Huh.

Sorry but dictating someone's access to things based on how you perceive them based on how they look is plain wrong, and if pointing that out is gaslighting then so be it.

[Mystic Mock]

Reading between the lines.

Ugly men, can't get a woman, so turn into a woman, thinking it makes them more appealing.:hehe:

Find out it doesn't.:fist: so take it out on women.:shrug:

The kind of men that you're talking about tend to visit either r/NiceGuys or r/Inbreeding.

Search those two Subreddits up, they don't strike me as Transwomen from the way that they post over on them two places.:laugh:

[Parmy]

Nobody wants to see a bearded woman bending her bare arse over a urinal to squeeze out a pee.

[Mystic Mock]

And yes, I have heard about both places from other Social Media outlets... Unfortunately.:joker:

[Mystic Mock]

Yes, there are some extremists who think it's transphobic to not want to date a trans person - I have a problem with that and it feels gay-erasure-esque. However it's a tiny minority of a minority. It feels hyperbolic to say lesbians are "under attack".

It's so weird because whenever minorities are discussed, conversation always turns to the extremists within that group, the group that by far do not represent the majority of people within that demographic. It happens all the time.

This whole conversation has been hyperbolic in fact, this idea that trans women are some extreme threat to women because of a few isolated incidences where a trans woman existing has negatively effected a cis woman.

A recent study showed that a third of men would rape a woman if they thought there'd be no consequences/nobody would ever find out. A third of straight cis University students. A third. But instead the world seems to focus on trans women being this insane threat to every other woman out there. Give me a break.

A third of men are basically saying that they have considered raping women in the past?:umm2:

That's a horrifying statistic.

[Cherie]

Yes, there are some extremists who think it's transphobic to not want to date a trans person - I have a problem with that and it feels gay-erasure-esque. However it's a tiny minority of a minority. It feels hyperbolic to say lesbians are "under attack".

It's so weird because whenever minorities are discussed, conversation always turns to the extremists within that group, the group that by far do not represent the majority of people within that demographic. It happens all the time.

This whole conversation has been hyperbolic in fact, this idea that trans women are some extreme threat to women because of a few isolated incidences where a trans woman existing has negatively effected a cis woman.

A recent study showed that a third of men would rape a woman if they thought there'd be no consequences/nobody would ever find out. A third of straight cis University students. A third. But instead the world seems to focus on trans women being this insane threat to every other woman out there. Give me a break.

You are completely missing the point, transwomen are not the threat, self ID is because it gives opportunists an opportunity, dont know how many times this needs to be said to you

Also when has a transman taken away an opportunity from a man, can you point me to where a transman is a CEO or heads up an organisation that specifically supports men? Any transmen taking medals at sports events away from men? Any transmen in men only clubs..you just never hear it

[Mystic Mock]

Nobody wants to see a bearded woman bending her bare arse over a urinal to squeeze out a pee.

You are in for a surprise.:laugh:

[Niamh.]

My opinion has nothing to do with women, it has everything to do with trans people.



You think my opinion is to do with women because you see trans women as men, and I don't.



I'm not gaslighting anyone, I'm disagreeing and pointing out flaws in the latest argument that trans men's identity is valid or not depending on how they look (they can use woman's facilities if they don't pass), but a trans woman's identity is never valid.



It seems completely hypocritical to talk about the importance of the law and what it states, and the importance of it being rooted in bioloigcal sex but then switching and saying "Hey, even though I view you as a woman, despite you identifying as a man, I'm going to have to ask you to use break the law and use the mens because...well you look too butch". I mean it's a win for the trans man because they get to use the facilities they want, but it's hypocritical and inconsistent.



It's a viewpoint that undermines both the law and the importance of biological sex that so many of you have been using as reasoning for trans women to be kept separate from cis women. So I ask, is it important or not?



I would say no, it's not important and everyone should have the same privilege as everyone else to use the facilities for the gender they are living life as. Vicky would say: it depends if they have facial hair. Huh.



Sorry but dictating someone's access to things based on how you perceive them based on how they look is plain wrong, and if pointing that out is gaslighting then so be it.It's important that biological women are safe from men in single sex spaces that they are vulnerable in or in a state of undress yes. Public toilets unfortunately are a difficult one as they can't be properly policed like rape centres or DV refuges or prisons can be. Thankfully, those ones can be though as those ones are more important. People arguing the case for biological men to be allowed access these spaces though tend to focus in on public toilets as it's easier to muddy the waters because of course no one is at door checking genitals or birth certs.

I wouldn't like to speak for Vicky but I suppose her point was biological women are not a danger to men the same way biological men are to women so that's probably why it's not as big an issue the other way round.

A solution to the toilet dilemma (as we seem stuck in the toilets) could be to have Women's and unisex or where possible all unisex fully closed cubicles

[Zizu]

It's important that biological women are safe from men in single sex spaces that they are vulnerable in or in a state of undress yes. Public toilets unfortunately are a difficult one as they can't be properly policed like rape centres or DV refuges or prisons can be. Thankfully, those ones can be though as those ones are more important. People arguing the case for biological men to be allowed access these spaces though tend to focus in on public toilets as it's easier to muddy the waters because of course no one is at door checking genitals or birth certs.

I wouldn't like to speak for Vicky but I suppose her point was biological women are not a danger to men the same way biological men are to women so that's probably why it's not as big an issue the other way round.

A solution to the toilet dilemma (as we seem stuck in the toilets) could be to have Women's and unisex or where possible all unisex fully closed cubicles


I agree about having individuals cubicles but sadly if they are in a unisex complex the guy could wait right outside the door and attack someone or even just force them back into the cubicle


Scary problem


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cherie]

It's important that biological women are safe from men in single sex spaces that they are vulnerable in or in a state of undress yes. Public toilets unfortunately are a difficult one as they can't be properly policed like rape centres or DV refuges or prisons can be. Thankfully, those ones can be though as those ones are more important. People arguing the case for biological men to be allowed access these spaces though tend to focus in on public toilets as it's easier to muddy the waters because of course no one is at door checking genitals or birth certs.

I wouldn't like to speak for Vicky but I suppose her point was biological women are not a danger to men the same way biological men are to women so that's probably why it's not as big an issue the other way round.

A solution to the toilet dilemma (as we seem stuck in the toilets) could be to have Women's and unisex or where possible all unisex fully closed cubicles

That is what they had done at the coffee shop I visited in Cambridge, it amused me to seeing men have to queue, and one man came back shaking his head saying there was a queue as there was just one toilet and a disabled option next door :laugh:

[Niamh.]

That is what they had done at the coffee shop I visited in Cambridge, it amused me to seeing men have to queue, and one man came back shaking his head saying there was a queue as there was just one toilet and a disabled option next door [emoji23]Welcome to our world eh? [emoji23]

[Vicky.]

My opinion has nothing to do with women, it has everything to do with trans people.

This is the problem. The ruling wasn't about trans people it was about women. Trans people have their own set of rights which have been upheld. If you look at this from purely a trans perspective then of course women upholding boundaries looks transphobic. If you consider women are also an oppressed group then you would see their side too.

I do see why trans people would see the ruling as transphobic however that's the fault of stonewall who spent years misrepresenting the law and telling women to S T F U terf. The law has always been the same. If I was trans I would be pretty pissed off too. But not at women.

[Vicky.]

A third of men are basically saying that they have considered raping women in the past?:umm2:

That's a horrifying statistic.
It's vile but sadly not surprising

[Cherie]

Welcome to our world eh? [emoji23]

Right :laugh: It was like a queue of 2 people and most people were using the disabled toilet next door as well, as a pefectly able man emerged while I was waiting :laugh: so as I dont really think bathrooms are the big issue they are being made out to be when there are so many other issues, like males in female prisons

[Vicky.]

I wouldn't like to speak for Vicky but I suppose her point was biological women are not a danger to men the same way biological men are to women so that's probably why it's not as big an issue the other way round. that's exactly what I meant.

[Vicky.]

Loos aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. Prisons, refuges, sports, changing rooms etc. It's easy to dismiss concerns about loos. Which is probably why we keep going back to them..

[Cherie]

I mean look at this ridiculous decision by a judge back in 2019, the female was just dismissed

It is lawful for transgender women to be housed in female jails in England and Wales, the High Court has ruled.

A female prisoner, known as FDJ, had challenged the Ministry of Justice over aspects of the policy.

She claimed she had been sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner but the MoJ did not say whether it accepted this alleged incident had taken place.

The judge ruled barring all trans women from female prisons would ignore their right to live as their chosen gender.

Women's prisons can house inmates who were born male but identify as female, regardless of whether they have gone through any physical transformation or have obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The MoJ argued the policy pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".

The claimant in the case, FDJ, had said she was sexually assaulted in prison in 2017 by a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate (GRC), who had convictions for serious sexual offences.

The claimant's lawyers argued that placing transgender women in the female prisons exposed others to higher risk, citing a claim that transgender inmates were five times more likely than non-transgender prisoners to commit a sexual assault on a non-transgender prisoner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993


Mad eh, and they told us this would never happen it was all in our heads, its easy to see why this case had to be taken to the Supreme Court because women were just not being listened to

[Vicky.]

I mean look at this ridiculous decision by a judge back in 2019, the female was just dismissed

It is lawful for transgender women to be housed in female jails in England and Wales, the High Court has ruled.

A female prisoner, known as FDJ, had challenged the Ministry of Justice over aspects of the policy.

She claimed she had been sexually assaulted by a trans prisoner but the MoJ did not say whether it accepted this alleged incident had taken place.

The judge ruled barring all trans women from female prisons would ignore their right to live as their chosen gender.

Women's prisons can house inmates who were born male but identify as female, regardless of whether they have gone through any physical transformation or have obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The MoJ argued the policy pursued a legitimate aim, including "facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people's mental and physical health".

The claimant in the case, FDJ, had said she was sexually assaulted in prison in 2017 by a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate (GRC), who had convictions for serious sexual offences.

The claimant's lawyers argued that placing transgender women in the female prisons exposed others to higher risk, citing a claim that transgender inmates were five times more likely than non-transgender prisoners to commit a sexual assault on a non-transgender prisoner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993


Mad eh, and they told us this would never happen it was all in our heads, its easy to see why this case had to be taken to the Supreme Court because women were just not being listened to Women aren't real people. They are only there to keep males safe and comfortable.

[Cherie]

Women aren't real people. They are only there to keep males safe and comfortable.

Insane right, previously convicted of sexual assault, placed in a womens prison, yet the woman is told she is lying and we can't upset this transwoman and 'her' and I use her very loosely rights must be upheld for 'her' physical and mental well being, farcical, and we had all the high profile politicans yes looking at you Nicola nodding along and gas lighting us that this was the correct way to proceed

BBXX what is your summation of this situation?

[BBXX]

Insane right, previously convicted of sexual assault, placed in a womens prison, yet the woman is told she is lying and we can't upset this transwoman and 'her' and I use her very loosely rights must be upheld for 'her' physical and mental well being, farcical, and we had all the high profile politicans yes looking at you Nicola nodding along and gas lighting us that this was the correct way to proceed

BBXX what is your summation of this situation?

Look, that's obviously awful for the female officer and the process for investigation should be the same for whomever was the perpetrator and the punishment the same, but sorry I don't see why a trans woman should be put anywhere other than a women's prison... If a cis man was guilty of raping various men, he would still be put in a male prison, he wouldn't be put in a female prison to minimise risk of him assaulting other inmates.

But I have to ask, why are you linking the crime with their trans-ness? Why isn't it just the case they commit such a horrible crime because they were a criminal? Why are you linking it with their identity? Can't trans women be criminals just because, just like the cis women?

This always happens with minorities - a minority commits a crime and it's used as an illustration in an argument to try and justify something. Bad people are bad people.

What if it was a lesbian cis woman who sexually assaulted the prison officer? Would you ask for all lesbians to be put into another prison?

[Cherie]

Look, that's obviously awful for the female officer and the process for investigation should be the same for whomever was the perpetrator and the punishment the same, but sorry I don't see why a trans woman should be put anywhere other than a women's prison... If a cis man was guilty of raping various men, he would still be put in a male prison, he wouldn't be put in a female prison to minimise risk of him assaulting other inmates.

But I have to ask, why are you linking the crime with their trans-ness? Why isn't it just the case they commit such a horrible crime because they were a criminal? Why are you linking it with their identity? Can't trans women be criminals just because, just like the cis women?

This always happens with minorities - a minority commits a crime and it's used as an illustration in an argument to try and justify something. Bad people are bad people.

What if it was a lesbian cis woman who sexually assaulted the prison officer? Would you ask for all lesbians to be put into another prison?

It wasn't a female officer who was assaulted, shows how much care you put into reading the article, it was a female inmate, and she was assaulted by a transwoman who had previous convictions for sexual assault, so in my view there is no way 'she' should have been in a female prison, is that normal for actual transwomen to be convicted of sexual assault??????? because personally I don't think it is, but clearly you are okay with it, if a lesbian was convicted of sexual assault I dont think she would be in the general population of inmates do you?

[BBXX]

Apologies I misread female prisoner with female prison officer.

[Mystic Mock]

It's vile but sadly not surprising

Thank god that it wasn't the majority of men.

Small mercies and all that.

[Maru]

Women aren't real people. They are only there to keep males safe and comfortable.

Weird, I thought our role was the latter...

[Vicky.]

sorry I don't see why a trans woman should be put anywhere other than a women's prison. at which stage of transition? Full transition, self ID, other?

[BBXX]

at which stage of transition? Full transition, self ID, other?

I don't know if there is an easy, cut and dry answer to this - I can totally understand if someone who has been living as a man, commits a crime and then states they identify as a woman shouldn't be placed in a women's prison, and I don't deny that Self-ID creates a myriad of issues but I also think we need to be careful not to make the lives of legitimate trans people even more difficult than they already are because of a few non-trans people who take advantage of a loophole.

In my opinion, someone who has been living as a woman for a long time and is yet to have surgery, for example, should still be placed in a woman's prison.

The prison system is a difficult one, and I think (there might be?) different wings for different crimes - sexual assault for example, should be separated from those who are in there for things like fraud and petty crime and that goes for men and women prisons. If a cis man or a cis woman has sexually assaulted someone of the same gender as them, they would still be put in the prison of the gender they identify as, housed alongside the same gender as the victim of their crime.

[Vicky.]

I don't know if there is an easy, cut and dry answer to this - I can totally understand if someone who has been living as a man, commits a crime and then states they identify as a woman shouldn't be placed in a women's prison, and I don't deny that Self-ID creates a myriad of issues but I also think we need to be careful not to make the lives of legitimate trans people even more difficult than they already are because of a few non-trans people who take advantage of a loophole.

In my opinion, someone who has been living as a woman for a long time and is yet to have surgery, for example, should still be placed in a woman's prison.

The prison system is a difficult one, and I think (there might be?) different wings for different crimes - sexual assault for example, should be separated from those who are in there for things like fraud and petty crime and that goes for men and women prisons. If a cis man or a cis woman has sexually assaulted someone of the same gender as them, they would still be put in the prison of the gender they identify as, housed alongside the same gender as the victim of their crime.
Do you also think transmen should go to male prisons?

[BBXX]

Do you also think transmen should go to male prisons?

Yes. My viewpoint is the same for Trans men and trans women across the board.

[Vicky.]

Yes. My viewpoint is the same for Trans men and trans women across the board.

Fair enough. I would think transmen would be at HUGE risk in a male prison.

[BBXX]

Fair enough. I would think transmen would be at HUGE risk in a male prison.

It's tough, perhaps they are. But that person wants to live as a man, and so cannot just pick and choose which bits of life they want to live as a man to suit. :shrug: My point has continuously been, while touching on safety as a main factor, respecting a trans persons right to live as they identify, in the same way cis people do. It's not been doing whatever we can to keep trans people safe at all times.

Sometimes letting a trans person live life as the gender they identify as will ensure a they are safer and sometimes it might put them in more harm, but any trans person will tell you the fear of potential harm they might face by living as a trans man (in this specific case) far outweighs having to live life in the wrong body. They'd rather be potentially unsafe than suicidal.

[Cherie]

Nicola Sturgeon has argued the law on the definition of a woman may need to be changed to accommodate trans people after complaining that a Supreme Court ruling had been “massively over-interpreted”.

The former first minister did not dispute that the court was correct that the definition of woman in the Equality Act 2010 was based on biological sex.

Nicola Sturgeon has argued the law on the definition of a woman may need to be changed to accommodate trans people after complaining that a Supreme Court ruling had been “massively over-interpreted”.

The former first minister did not dispute that the court was correct that the definition of woman in the Equality Act 2010 was based on biological sex.

But she argued that this could be changed to give trans people access to female-only areas as it was for politicians “to decide what the law should be or has to be.”

She said the “law has to change” if trans people’s lives become “almost impossible” and cited comments from Baroness Hale, the first female president of the Supreme Court.

Lady Hale said last week that “there’s nothing in that judgment that says that you can’t have gender neutral loos” and Ms Sturgeon argued that this showed that the ruling had been “massively over-interpreted.”

The former SNP leader made the comments this weekend at the How the Light Gets In festival in Hay-on-Wye, Wales, adding that she had received “more misogynistic abuse as a result of this issue than any other”.

Ms Sturgeon said this was “ironic” but pledged to “always” be an ally to trans people “no matter how difficult that might be.”

But For Women Scotland (FWS), the feminist group that won the Supreme Court case against the SNP government, said the real misreading of the law had come from “trans activists who have spun the most outrageous interpretations.”

Ms Sturgeon’s government tried the Gender Recognition Reform (GRR) Bill, which would have allowed biological men to change legal gender by simply signing a declaration.

The legislation was passed at Holyrood but vetoed by the UK Government over concerns it undermined women’s safe spaces.

But it has emerged that swathes of Scotland’s public sector adopted self-ID all the same, allowing trans people access to female toilets and changing rooms.

Experts have warned these practices will have to be scrapped following the Supreme Court’s ruling in April that the definition of a woman is based on biological sex, and does not include trans women.


The brass neck of this woman who is basically a thief, defies belief

[Vicky.]

there’s nothing in that judgment that says that you can’t have gender neutral loos”

No there isn't, this can be done. What can't be done is it being labelled for women while being mixed sex. Places can chose to have 'gender neutral' if they like

[Cherie]

No there isn't, this can be done. What can't be done is it being labelled for women while being mixed sex. Places can chose to have 'gender neutral' if they like

The fixation on toilets is pretty ridiculous and designed to demean

Its all about bathrooms they cry when it really isn't

[Vicky.]

I agree, making it all about toilets is ridiculous

[BBXX]

It’s probably because it will affect them most frequently. Not many people are joining professional sports teams or seeking help refuge. Public loos are used often by almost everyone.

[Niamh.]

It’s probably because it will affect them most frequently. Not many people are joining professional sports teams or seeking help refuge. Public loos are used often by almost everyone.There was a lot of sports objections

[Cherie]

It’s probably because it will affect them most frequently. Not many people are joining professional sports teams or seeking help refuge. Public loos are used often by almost everyone.

Alot of transwomen have already said they will ignore the new law and continue to use the ladies....its not the big deal that is being made out, employment, changing rooms, sports, refuges, swimming pools....no mention

[Maru]

The fixation on toilets is pretty ridiculous and designed to demean

Its all about bathrooms they cry when it really isn't

To be fair, if one concedes on bathroom spaces, they pretty much have to concede on most—if not all—others... because it's the most private area where most of us are going to share a space as the same sex. Locker rooms I would put into the same category of arguments.

It would introduce a lot of awkwardness when it comes to areas of social life where maybe an organization or institutions would like to allow transwomen... for example, girls camp... little known fact, but in some areas schools send their kids off for about a week in 5th grade... but imagine they can't share bedroom/bathroom spaces where almost all the female social skills and experiences really solidify at that age. Maybe they can't due to the potential of violating the larger law. I can see where there is less room for compromise without a clearer picture of where integration is encouraged and where lines are best drawn...

So I think legislation could and should strive to go further to outline exactly how we intend to integrate trans-folk into an increasingly complex society instead of walking around it and allowing for this weird unhappy middle where no one has any really clue where it falls... that will cause a lot of problems down the line and it's causing problems now, imo.

[arista]

Speaking On BBCnewsHD to Laura
says she will not return to the UK.


As it's not safe if she has to go into a men's loo.

She fears someone will Die


A Former Judge. (Dr. Victoria McCloud)

A Special One-On-One Newscast

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9qw2149yelo

[Zizu]

Yawn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kate!]

Dear God!

[arista]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m000f2ky/newscast

Not Yet on Video

It is in on Audio Only.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0lh0c9r

[Crimson Dynamo]

Bye then luv

[Swan]

Will she go to a nice safe Islamic country, or Devil Trump's America?

[arista]

She/He
is helping others leave the UK.

She stated if she went into a pub,
in a men's loo,
she said she could be killed
or raped.

[arista]

Will she go to a nice safe Islamic country, or Devil Trump's America?


EU.

[Swan]

EU.

Poland maybe?

[arista]

Poland maybe?

For security reasons, she would not say

[Cherie]

Hungary Russia America the worlds her Oyster

[Swan]

Asia too

[Swan]

Oh, and Africa

[Swan]

Ireland it is then

[Crimson Dynamo]

So many options :amazed:

[Cherie]

The Middle East ...for the Sun

[Cherie]

Transgender people must acknowledge a “period of correction” of rights after the supreme court decision on gender because they “have been lied to over many years” about what their rights actually were, one of the commissioners drawing up the official post-ruling guidance has said.

Speaking at a debate about the repercussions of April’s ruling that “woman” in the Equality Act refers only to a biological woman, Akua Reindorf said trans people had been misled about their rights and there “has to be a period of correction, because other people have rights”.

Reindorf, a barrister who is one of eight commissioners at the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), who was speaking in a personal capacity, said she believes the fault lay with trans lobbyists.

However, the human rights campaign groups Liberty and Amnesty called on the EHRC to make sure the rights of trans people were properly considered when it draws up guidance for public bodies on how to implement the changed legal landscape.

A director of the trans campaign group TransActual said Reindorf’s remarks were profoundly unhelpful.

Speaking at the event, organised by the London School of Economics law school, Reindorf argued that the impact of the ruling was very clear, condemning what she called “this huge farce with organisations up and down the country wringing their hands and creating working groups and so on, and people in society worrying that they will have nowhere to go to the toilet”.

Asked by an audience member about worries the ruling could reduce the rights of trans people, another panellist, the barrister Naomi Cunningham, said trans people “will have to give way”, adding: “It can’t be helped, I’m afraid.”

Reindorf, speaking next, agreed: “Unfortunately, young people and trans people have been lied to over many years about what their rights are. It’s like Naomi said – I just can’t say it in a more diplomatic way than that. They have been lied to, and there has to be a period of correction, because other people have rights.”

Reindorf said her comments reflected the fact that before the ruling, the law had been commonly misunderstood because pressure groups argued that trans people who self-identified should be treated as their identified sex, when this was in fact just the case for people with a gender recognition certificate (GRC).


The supreme court decided that this mix of different rights made the Equality Act unworkable, said Reindorf, speaking in a personal capacity. She called this “the catalyst for many to catch up, belatedly, with the fact that the law never permitted self-ID in the first place”.

“The fact is that, until now, trans people without GRCs were being grievously misled about their legal rights,” she said. “The correction of self-ID policies and practices will inevitably feel like a loss of rights for trans people. This unfortunate position is overwhelmingly a product of the misinformation which was systematically disseminated over a long period by lobby groups and activists.”

In April, the EHRC released interim, non-statutory advice about how to interpret the ruling, which set out that transgender people should not be allowed to use toilets of the gender they live as, and that in some cases they cannot use toilets of their birth sex. A number of critics have called the advice oversimplistic.

Chiara Capraro, head of gender justice at Amnesty International UK, said: “The EHRC has the duty to uphold the rights of everyone, including all with protected characteristics. We are concerned that it is failing to do so and is unhelpfully pitting the rights of women and trans people against each other.”

Akiko Hart, Liberty’s director, said: “Any updated guidance from the EHRC must respect and uphold the rights of everyone in society. The supreme court’s judgment was very narrow, and there are a lot of very legitimate questions about how it’s implemented that must be carefully considered.”

The Guardian

[Zizu]

She/He
is helping others leave the UK.

She stated if she went into a pub,
in a men's loo,
she said she could be killed
or raped.


Well killed ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mystic Mock]

Well killed ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You'd be surprised at how many sadistic personality types are out there that will see Transwomen as an easy target.

[Zizu]

You'd be surprised at how many sadistic personality types are out there that will see Transwomen as an easy target.


That’s why I agreed with killed (beat up)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mystic Mock]

That’s why I agreed with killed (beat up)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with you that will be the most common method.

But some will want the power over the Transwoman though, by raping her.

[Zizu]

I agree with you that will be the most common method.

But some will want the power over the Transwoman though, by raping her.


Using that theory thousands of guys would be getting raped in lavatories across the country each week


They are not women - one vital female component is missing plus they have the ever present deal breaker the thing no guy wants to see …


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oliver_W]

Maybe she now has an inkling about how women feel when males are allowed in their spaces?

[Crimson Dynamo]

You'd be surprised at how many sadistic personality types are out there that will see Transwomen as an easy target.

they see women as an easy target as they are generally bigger and stronger

[Zizu]

they see women as an easy target as they are generally bigger and stronger


In some cases..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20250608/3f231e7d0a1c425fd05b57b9d7996ca5.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mystic Mock]

Using that theory thousands of guys would be getting raped in lavatories across the country each week


They are not women - one vital female component is missing plus they have the ever present deal breaker the thing no guy wants to see …


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not fully up on the Psychology of it all.

But some people are so messed up in the head, that they will torture someone by either sexually assaulting them or raping them, regardless of if they're sexually attracted to the victim or not.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inside-the-criminal-mind/201712/the-thinking-processes-of-sexual-predators

This article is mainly talking about sexual predators in a work environment, but a lot of what they're saying is what I have heard from other sources in the past about this topic.

And of course... TV Shows.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

they see women as an easy target as they are generally bigger and stronger

That's 100% true.

[Livia]

I agree with you that will be the most common method.

But some will want the power over the Transwoman though, by raping her.

So you're saying a straight man would rape a trans woman?

[Oliver_W]

So you're saying a straight man would rape a trans woman?

It's interesting how it's somehow okay for that person to brand all "cis" males as a threat to their safety, but women can't apply that to a certain subset of males...

[Mystic Mock]

So you're saying a straight man would rape a trans woman?

You'd be surprised.

It obviously wouldn't be many, but there will be some out there I think.

[Mystic Mock]

It's interesting how it's somehow okay for that person to brand all "cis" males as a threat to their safety, but women can't apply that to a certain subset of males...

I think both problems are real tbh.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Clown world that they even had to do this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gs6Ev3fWsAAYaU2?format=jpg&name=small

[Zizu]

Clown world that they even had to do this

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gs6Ev3fWsAAYaU2?format=jpg&name=small


As if being a nurse isn’t difficult enough these days …


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[Livia]

You'd be surprised.

It obviously wouldn't be many, but there will be some out there I think.

That's hardly hard stats, Mock. There will be some... I think.

[Mystic Mock]

That's hardly hard stats, Mock. There will be some... I think.

Are you seriously trying to say that there won't be some cases of Transwomen being sexually assaulted or raped?

There are cases of men (that still identify as men,) that have been victims of these crimes, do you honestly think that there won't be cases of Transwomen being victims too?

And I've already said that the stats wouldn't be very high, but that it definitely will happen.

Is there anything wrong with what I have said there?

[Livia]

Are you seriously trying to say that there won't be some cases of Transwomen being sexually assaulted or raped?

There are cases of men (that still identify as men,) that have been victims of these crimes, do you honestly think that there won't be cases of Transwomen being victims too?

And I've already said that the stats wouldn't be very high, but that it definitely will happen.

Is there anything wrong with what I have said there?

You've said the stats wouldn't be high, without knowing whether there are any stats at all. Heterosexual men are attracted to women, not other men. I'd be interested to know how many transwomen have been raped by straight men.

[Mystic Mock]

You've said the stats wouldn't be high, without knowing whether there are any stats at all. Heterosexual men are attracted to women, not other men. I'd be interested to know how many transwomen have been raped by straight men.

Well because technically even one case of it happening is still a stat.

Obviously the number won't be that high because like you've said yourself, straight men will in general want to go with women, consensual or not if he is an evil individual.

But my point to Zizu was that Transwomen being raped by men has probably happened.

After all if some men molest kids, why would there not be at the very least one case of a Transwoman being a victim of a sex crime?

I'm not saying it's an epidemic, just that it will happen sometimes.

[Vicky.]

Rape isn't always about attraction its about power. I have no doubt some transwomen will be assaulted in male spaces but that's still not a reason to make female spaces a free for all.

[Livia]

Well because technically even one case of it happening is still a stat.

Obviously the number won't be that high because like you've said yourself, straight men will in general want to go with women, consensual or not if he is an evil individual.

But my point to Zizu was that Transwomen being raped by men has probably happened.

After all if some men molest kids, why would there not be at the very least one case of a Transwoman being a victim of a sex crime?

I'm not saying it's an epidemic, just that it will happen sometimes.

Yes, one occurrence of a heterosexual make raping a trans woman would be a stat. But you can't provide one. So is it not a stat.

[user104658]

You've said the stats wouldn't be high, without knowing whether there are any stats at all. Heterosexual men are attracted to women, not other men. I'd be interested to know how many transwomen have been raped by straight men.

Bit optimistic about what men will or won't do there I'm afraid, there are chaps out there who -- to be entirely and completely blunt and save time -- will rape anything they can put their penis in. Women, men, transpeople, kids, dogs...

Some human beings are simply unfathomable creatures and it is unfortunately mostly the male ones.

(This is of course why access to women's spaces MUST not be made easier in any way for biological males; the idea that people won't exploit any loophole is simply wrong, they definitely will and do).

[Livia]

Bit optimistic about what men will or won't do there I'm afraid, there are chaps out there who -- to be entirely and completely blunt and save time -- will rape anything they can put their penis in. Women, men, transpeople, kids, dogs...

Some human beings are simply unfathomable creatures and it is unfortunately mostly the male ones.

(This is of course why access to women's spaces MUST not be made easier in any way for biological males; the idea that people won't exploit any loophole is simply wrong, they definitely will and do).

They might, they could, they would..... but still no stats.

There are stats of female prisoners being raped in prison by transwomen... they are concrete. Where are the stats for transwomen being raped by heterosexuals? That's what we're discussing. I'm not saying there are no stats, I'm saying, where are they?

[user104658]

They might, they could, they would..... but still no stats.

There are stats of female prisoners being raped in prison by transwomen... they are concrete. Where are the stats for transwomen being raped by heterosexuals? That's what we're discussing. I'm not saying there are no stats, I'm saying, where are they?

Ironically, the trans-activist insistence on not differentiating will be part of what makes the stats difficult to get. A lot of trans-activists would PREFER that these crimes are recorded as male-on-female, rather than male-on-trans.

[Livia]

Ironically, the trans-activist insistence on not differentiating will be part of what makes the stats difficult to get. A lot of trans-activists would PREFER that these crimes are recorded as male-on-female, rather than male-on-trans.

We were told we were being stupid, imagining trans women would attack women. We were told we were hysterical and that it would never happen. But it did happen. And there are stats.

Now we have to accept that there will be transwomen raped by heterosexuals without one iota of proof. So excuse me if I demand to see the workings of these claims.

[user104658]

We were told we were being stupid, imagining trans women would attack women. We were told we were hysterical and that it would never happen. But it did happen. And there are stats.

Now we have to accept that there will be transwomen raped by heterosexuals without one iota of proof. So excuse me if I demand to see the workings of these claims.

I understand and it's fair enough, my opinion of what some men will do is just sadly so low that you can ask the question "will [insert literally anything here] be raped by men?" and my answer would be "Yeah, almost certainly."

(Again I agree this is why it's unsafe to let male-bodied individuals into women's spaces, for any reason, including allowing them to claim another gender identity).

[Livia]

I understand and it's fair enough, my opinion of what some men will do is just sadly so low that you can ask the question "will [insert literally anything here] be raped by men?" and my answer would be "Yeah, almost certainly."

(Again I agree this is why it's unsafe to let male-bodied individuals into women's spaces, for any reason, including allowing them to claim another gender identity).

Yeah, it was Mystic Mock who stated it as a fact. I'm going to drag him out to the car park later and give him a good shoeing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I man got off with any prison time this week for raping a Shetland Pony

true

Lucky he never posted about it on Facebook

phew!

[user104658]

I man got off with any prison time this week for raping a Shetland Pony

true

Lucky he never posted about it on Facebook

phew!

You forgot to change the "I" to an "A" when you retyped that LT!

[bots]

Sorry, i think i'm missing something here. Many of the people will still have their junk attached that go into the mens loos, so i think the chances of them being raped must approximate to zero

[user104658]

Sorry, I think I'm missing something here. Many of the people will still have their junk attached that go into the mens loos, so i think the chances of them being raped must approximate to zero

Well. No. There are other forms of rape.

But non-penetrative sexual assault in these sorts of "opportunistic" circumstances (against both women and men) is far more common than rape.

However the biggest risk is other assault - either sexually motivated or otherwise.

[Glenn.]

Women are in more danger from cis men than they are the transgender community. I can say with almost 100% certainty the women on this forum have felt threatened by a male than they have any transgender person.

[Oliver_W]

Women are in more danger from cis men than they are the transgender community.

Trans women have the same rate of sex crimes as cis men.

[user104658]

Women are in more danger from cis men than they are the transgender community. I can say with almost 100% certainty the women on this forum have felt threatened by a male than they have any transgender person.

Trans women have the same rate of sex crimes as cis men.

Yep both correct, cis men are a bigger risk but ONLY because of numbers (there are a lot more cis men out there than trans women). Proportionately, risk remains the same across both groups. You can argue that trans women are not men... but you can't argue that they aren't predisposed to violence at the same rate as men. Statistically, they 100% are.

[Livia]

Women and transwomen managed to co-exist for years with minimum problems, if any. The real problem came with self identification and with transwomen being told they are women and are entitled in our spaces. I think loud and violent trans-activists have done real transwomen a great disservice by acting like entitled men.

[Mystic Mock]

Rape isn't always about attraction its about power. I have no doubt some transwomen will be assaulted in male spaces but that's still not a reason to make female spaces a free for all.

I agree with you, especially when it comes to Sports.

And I agree that not every rapist rapes based on sexual attraction but instead they want to have control over the victim.

[Mystic Mock]

Ironically, the trans-activist insistence on not differentiating will be part of what makes the stats difficult to get. A lot of trans-activists would PREFER that these crimes are recorded as male-on-female, rather than male-on-trans.

That would explain why the stat that I was trying to look for was so distorted this morning.

Because I honestly was looking for stats for male on Trans sex crimes, but things like male on female would show up instead.

Probably because that type of crime is far more common tbf, but it wasn't what I was looking for.

[Mystic Mock]

Yeah, it was Mystic Mock who stated it as a fact. I'm going to drag him out to the car park later and give him a good shoeing.

Pulp Fiction... Remove the fiction.:joker:

I hope that you're doing well today Livia.

[Livia]

Pulp Fiction... Remove the fiction.:joker:

I hope that you're doing well today Livia.


I'm good thanks Mock. Hope you are. Just going to have a go at Katie's game now you've shamed me LOL....