Zelah's egg

[Crimson Dynamo]

So, if i got this right, Zelah, a biological woman who wants to be known as a
man, (she decided this like 3 years ago at the height of the social contagion
according to that extensive study published yesterday) is going to take an egg
from her womb and transfer it into her girlfriend and then get it fertilized by a
random man and then the girlfriend will give birth to the resultant baby?


At the moment, she cannot have a period due to all the drugs (testosterone)



https://blogscdn.thehut.net/app/uploads/sites/1736/2024/02/Zelah-blog-collage-2_1708516150.jpg

[thesheriff443]

It’s a head scratcher for the child that produced from this situation

[MTVN]

Yes very strange, two Mums and two Dads for this baby

[Maru]

At least it's not like that one story where the biological man was taking chemicals to stimulate breastfeeding so they can feed their child as a proper mother... never mind subjecting their child to all those hormones...

Zelah, no different than women with any kind of imbalance in hormones, will be more likely have issues with fertility. Long term Birth Control (the pill) alone can cause that or at least a delay in "straightening out"... Post-partum can also shift things also, so getting back to where they were, would maybe have more obstacles than they think. So I can see at least a medical basis for why it might be better for the partner to carry, who isn't on the same hormone regime.

[Crimson Dynamo]

And the poor child would have no Father?

I wonder how Zelah's relationship is with her Father?

[Jordan.]

So if I got this right???? :conf::huh:

And it's just surrogacy

[Gusto Brunt]

So, if i got this right, Zelah, a biological woman who wants to be known as a
man, (she decided this like 3 years ago at the height of the social contagion
according to that extensive study published yesterday) is going to take an egg
from her womb and transfer it into her girlfriend and then get it fertilized by a
random man and then the girlfriend will give birth to the resultant baby?


At the moment, she cannot have a period due to all the drugs (testosterone)



https://blogscdn.thehut.net/app/uploads/sites/1736/2024/02/Zelah-blog-collage-2_1708516150.jpg
Not much difference between the before and after. Still looks muscly

[Beso]

Giggity giggity at the right side photo.

[Shaun]

I suppose it must be quite difficult for transgender relationships who want to conceive with their partner and know that the offspring wouldn't ever be able to have both of their parents' DNA.

But then this is also often the case for some heterosexual couples where one or both of them cannot conceive naturally and have to either rely on a surrogate, a sperm donor, or maybe even just skip the whole shebang and adopt. Society usually looks upon such cases with sympathy and compassion. Imagine doing the same for a transgender person, eh!

[BBXX]

I suppose it must be quite difficult for transgender relationships who want to conceive with their partner and know that the offspring wouldn't ever be able to have both of their parents' DNA.

But then this is also often the case for some heterosexual couples where one or both of them cannot conceive naturally and have to either rely on a surrogate, a sperm donor, or maybe even just skip the whole shebang and adopt. Society usually looks upon such cases with sympathy and compassion. Imagine doing the same for a transgender person, eh!

You see… your problem is that you’re using logic and critical thinking instead of letting a blind obsessive hatred toward a tiny subsection of society cloud your views because you spend your day echoing other people’s Tweets and now you’re unable to think for yourself. :hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I suppose it must be quite difficult for transgender relationships who want to conceive with their partner and know that the offspring wouldn't ever be able to have both of their parents' DNA.

But then this is also often the case for some heterosexual couples where one or both of them cannot conceive naturally and have to either rely on a surrogate, a sperm donor, or maybe even just skip the whole shebang and adopt. Society usually looks upon such cases with sympathy and compassion. Imagine doing the same for a transgender person, eh!

Isnt that because they have no option

not because they are partaking in a mid-2020s contagion that is not thankfully on the wane?

[BBXX]

Isnt that because they have no option

not because they are partaking in a mid-2020s contagion that is not thankfully on the wane?

Where is your proof that the drop in people identifying as trans is due to reduction in social contagion instead of because the world is less safe for trans people than it was a few years ago?

When anti-trans rhetoric begins, when medical care becomes more limited and when society becomes more dangerous then more people will hide their identity. That behaviour has existed forever. Whether it be sexuality, gender expression or left-handedness.

Irrespective, how does this affect you in any way. Like, why is what Zelah does with his egg have any impact on your life. And if you view him as a woman, which you evidently do, why do you think it’s an acceptable to judge what a “woman” does with their own reproductive system? Weird.

[Beso]

Where is your proof that the drop in people identifying as trans is due to reduction in social contagion instead of because the world is less safe for trans people than it was a few years ago?

When anti-trans rhetoric begins, when medical care becomes more limited and when society becomes more dangerous then more people will hide their identity. That behaviour has existed forever. Whether it be sexuality, gender expression or left-handedness.

Irrespective, how does this affect you in any way. Like, why is what Zelah does with his egg have any impact on your life. And if you view him as a woman, which you evidently do, why do you think it’s an acceptable to judge what a “woman” does with their own reproductive system? Weird.




What about the impact on the egg getting shoved from here to there just to be flooded by a load of loveless spunk.:shrug:


Not the start in life I'd prefer.

[BBXX]

What about the impact on the egg getting shoved from here to there just to be flooded by a load of loveless spunk.:shrug:

Not the start in life I'd prefer.

Yes because a child has never been created by loveless spunk. /s

The idea a child can’t life a brilliant life, full of love, because of the way it’s conceived is… quite simply rubbish.

The way a child is conceived means nothing for how it’s raised, which is what really matters. Surely you know this.

[Beso]

Of course.

Zelah and his partner would be great parents. Maybe not the best of teachers though. A plus in manners though, I would imagine.

It's not the way I would want my life to start though looking back. That's all I was saying

[BBXX]

Of course.

Zelah and his partner would be great parents. Maybe not the best of teachers though. A plus in manners though, I would imagine.

It's not the way I would want my life to start though looking back. That's all I was saying

Fine, but it’s good to know the egg quality is not impacted by moving it to a carrier.

[Katmieow]

Great post Bbxx

[vesavius]

It's a lot of faffing and fiddling to try and find a way around biological nature, but in the end I guess as long as the home is stable and loving it's fine. By the time the kid is old enough to understand we will probably be pumping out babies from Chinese birthing robots anyhow so it'll seem relatively normal.

If I was in their situation though I would just adopt.

Loads of kids out there need loving homes so spending all that money on this process just to produce one against everything seems selfish and a bit weird, tbh.

[BBXX]

Loads of kids out there need loving homes so spending all that money on this process just to produce one against everything seems selfish and a bit weird, tbh.

You can see that about anyone who chooses to have children biologically though. There is not one ‘selfless’ reason to have children biologically.

I mean, would you say that to someone who struggles with their fertility and has IVF?

[vesavius]

You can see that about anyone who chooses to have children biologically though. There is not one ‘selfless’ reason to have children biologically.

Nah, this is clearly not the same as a standard biological birth, so that doesn't work.

I mean, would you say that to someone who struggles with their fertility and has IVF?

I would say 'why not adopt?'

In other words, exactly the same thing.

Thousands and thousands spent on forcing a thing that could be better spent on giving an adopted child a great life.

[BBXX]

I would say 'why not adopt?'

In other words, exactly the same thing.

Eesh. Bye.

[vesavius]

Eesh. Bye.

Cya! :joker::joker::joker:

[BBXX]

Nah, this is clearly not the same as a standard biological birth, so that doesn't work.

Why? Why should only people who struggle with fertility or biological nuances be held to the standard of “if you spend money on medical fixes instead of adopting just so you can have a biological child you’re selfish”

Also why are we acting like adoption also doesn’t cost money and time and isn’t a hugely emotional and complex process?

[vesavius]

Oh, you're back!

I thought we had broken up.

Why? Why should only people who struggle with fertility or biological nuances be held to the standard of “if you spend money on medical fixes instead of adopting just so you can have a biological child you’re selfish

Also why are we acting like adoption also doesn’t cost money and time and isn’t a hugely emotional and complex process?

People are free to do what they want and spend their money how they wish, I'm not a Leftist that tries to control what others do in that regard.

I also don't try and control what others do with their bodies, though ofc I reserve the right to have an opinion on it.

So, I am not trying to restrict anyone from doing anything here, just giving my personal perspective on it and stating the route that I would take in the same situation.

[Glenn.]

So if I got this right???? :conf::huh:

And it's just surrogacy

Imagine being triggered by surrogacy though :skull:

[Glenn.]

And the poor child would have no Father?

I wonder how Zelah's relationship is with her Father?

A lot of children do not have fathers. Not sure why this is a major thing for you to comprehend.

[Maru]

Nah, this is clearly not the same as a standard biological birth, so that doesn't work.



I would say 'why not adopt?'

In other words, exactly the same thing.

Thousands and thousands spent on forcing a thing that could be better spent on giving an adopted child a great life.

You mean hundreds of thousands. It's $150~$250K (at least) here since it is elective. We're talking about an extreme luxury that is inaccessible to a vast majority, at least in the US. And that's not even talking about what the financial picture look likes after for parent or child. That's just to give birth.

[vesavius]

You mean hundreds of thousands. It's $150~$250K (at least) here since it is elective. We're talking about an extreme luxury that is inaccessible to a vast majority, at least in the US. And that's not even talking about what the financial picture look likes after for parent or child. That's just to give birth.

staggering amount

[Vicky.]

Think it's about 10k a round for IVF here

[Mystic Mock]

Nah, this is clearly not the same as a standard biological birth, so that doesn't work.



I would say 'why not adopt?'

In other words, exactly the same thing.

Thousands and thousands spent on forcing a thing that could be better spent on giving an adopted child a great life.

In fairness, don't they make it really hard for people to adopt kids nowadays?

[vesavius]

In fairness, don't they make it really hard for people to adopt kids nowadays?

I mean, so it should be I guess, but if you are stable, are physically and mentally up to the job, and don't have criminal convictions it is a very viable option.

[Glenn.]

It's a lot of faffing and fiddling to try and find a way around biological nature, but in the end I guess as long as the home is stable and loving it's fine. By the time the kid is old enough to understand we will probably be pumping out babies from Chinese birthing robots anyhow so it'll seem relatively normal.

If I was in their situation though I would just adopt.

Loads of kids out there need loving homes so spending all that money on this process just to produce one against everything seems selfish and a bit weird, tbh.

Maybe straight people could stop having children and giving them away. Seems selfish expecting someone else to look after their children.

[Mystic Mock]

I mean, so it should be I guess, but if you are stable, are physically and mentally up to the job, and don't have criminal convictions it is a very viable option.

From what I've heard I think that they could lower the requirements slightly.

I mean after all, a kid in this situation is not going to care that one of their parents might be a smoker or slightly overweight, as I have heard some people say that they look for things like that to stop perfectly good people from adopting.

[Mystic Mock]

Maybe straight people could stop having children and giving them away. Seems selfish expecting someone else to look after their children.

It's a fair point.

Although there are circumstances where I can understand why the parents might've given the child up for adoption.

[Maru]

Think it's about 10k a round for IVF here

IVF is way cheaper and fertility treatments are usually decently covered. Surrogacy, it's hard to say (with the coverage) because it's not a "fertility treatment". Two people are involved so both would require different insurance methods to cover the different aspects of the procedures... that's if the insurances don't have some kind of exclusion for what they're doing.

[BBXX]

It's a fair point.

Although there are circumstances where I can understand why the parents might've given the child up for adoption.

Yes there will be circumstances where someone's child is taken off them due to extenuating circumstances, such as poor mental health or addiction. But there's also many times when it's simply through poor choice.

What's being said is... straight people who have no fertility issues can keep on having babies without ever being labelled selfish for doing so...

...and it's the job of people who can't have babies biologically without medical help - ie: gay people, trans people and people with fertility issues - to adopt these children before having their own biological babies, or be labelled selfish and weird.

Also, the idea that people think it's okay to turn around to someone they know is struggling with fertility and say "why don't you just adopt" is so insensitive. Regardless of all the other stuff I implore whoever thinks that would be okay to please rethink, many people who are going through the ordeal of IVF would find that so inappropriate.

[vesavius]

Also, the idea that people think it's okay to turn around to someone they know is struggling with fertility and say "why don't you just adopt" is so insensitive. Regardless of all the other stuff I implore whoever thinks that would be okay to please rethink, many people who are going through the ordeal of IVF would find that so inappropriate.

I assume you are passive aggressively directing this at me, even if you didn't quote, so I'll reply anyhow.

I think it's ok to be a bit insensitive when speaking a truth. And from what I see most would agree with that when it suits them, tbh. Sometimes it's even good for us to hear what might make us feel uncomfortable.

But, that aside, it's a valid question and it's really only the potential answer that really has the power to make a person feel uncomfortable with themselves.

[BBXX]

I think it's ok to be a bit insensitive when speaking a truth.


It's not the truth, it's just your expectation of how they should live their life based on your opinion.

For full transparency, I personally don't understand the importance of having a child - biological or not. I fight against the idea that not having children is selfish and the idea that having children is this selfless thing you can do. I think both choices are selfish in different ways - people have kids because they want them and usually biologically because they want mini versions of themselves. I personally will never understand. However I don't believe what I think matters to anybody else. When someone tells me they're pregnant I don't say "Why" which is what I say in my head. I congratulate them if they're happy about it.

If I was in a conversation with someone who was talking about wanting their own child (whether they are biologically able to or not) I would never share that I don't understand the need, I'd just respect that, for them, it's super important and something they want from life. That empathy extends even more greatly when that person really wants a baby but is struggling to conceive. It's such an emotionally taxing situation and it really doesn't need unhelpful input from people who believe they are 'just speaking the truth' when really they're just imparting their opinion on a subject that is often painful to discuss.

If the idea is that you think adoption is important because it helps a child in need, then you should really hold everyone to the same sort of standard, otherwise it's not about the children at all.

[Livia]

I'm firmly with Vesavius on this question. Having a child is not your right. It seems odd to turn to this kind of weird science when there are kids languishing in children's homes.

[vesavius]

It's not the truth, it's just your expectation of how they should live their life based on your opinion.

Opinions can also be the truth.


However I don't believe what I think matters to anybody else.

Then why saying anything about anything ever?

You clearly do want what you say and think to matter to others.

If I was in a conversation with someone who was talking about wanting their own child (whether they are biologically able to or not) I would never share...

That's fine, I understand that, but it doesn't make you a better or superior person in any sense.

If the idea is that you think adoption is important because it helps a child in need, then you should really hold everyone to the same sort of standard, otherwise it's not about the children at all.

Yes, I do think adoption is super important.

No, I don't have a universal standard that I apply to all situations regarding this. That would be silly. Different cases require different considerations.

Mostly the point I have been making is regarding how, IMO, that the money forcing a this to happen could be spent giving a child that needs a home a better life, rather than serving a vanity. It's just my feeling on it, I don't hate anyone that chooses to do differently or anything.

[BBXX]

Opinions can also be the truth.
Then why saying anything about anything ever?

You clearly do want what you say to matter to others.


I think it's about the context. I don't mind having a debate with people, but I think when it's something so personal and saying something won't change anything, some things are just better left unsaid.

That's fine, I understand that, but it doesn't make you a better or superior person in any sense.

I didn't say it did, but saying something that will make someone feel worse about a medical condition that already brings them pain isn't a great choice.

Mostly the point I have been making is regarding how, IMO, that money forcing a thing to happen against nature could be spent giving a child that needs a home a better life, rather than serving a vanity. It's just my feeling on it, I don't hate anyone that chooses to do differently or anything.

Fair enough... I think if people can solve a medical anomalies with money and it helps improve their life then I think they should be able to do with without judgement of being called selfish or weird or vain, but that's just my personal opinion on it.

[BBXX]

Straight/Fertile people: I'm going to use the NHS to have a biological child instead of adopting the children languishing in a children's homes.
Infertile/Trans/Gay people: I'm going to use my own money to pay privately to have medical treatment so I can have a biological child instead of adopting the children languishing in a children's home
Straight/Fertile people: That's selfish :oh:

lol ok.

[vesavius]

I think it's about the context. I don't mind having a debate with people, but I think when it's something so personal and saying something won't change anything, some things are just better left unsaid.



I didn't say it did, but saying something that will make someone feel worse about a medical condition that already brings them pain isn't a great choice.

The best choice is not always the most comfortable one for ourselves. Sometimes we need someone to point that out.


Fair enough... I think if people can solve a medical anomalies with money and it helps improve their life then I think they should be able to do with without judgement of being called selfish or weird or vain, but that's just my personal opinion on it.

I support their right to spend their money how they wish, but I also support my right to hold and voice a personal opinion on it.


...it helps improve their life...

isn't this the core of why I used a word like selfish?

They could have used that money to improve the life of another, but they chose to use it just to improve their own.

Honestly, and I am making an assumption here so I am open to being corrected, it seems to me that someone on the Left should really be arguing for adoption rather than the wealthy using money to satisfy their own wants.

A community should look after each other, not just chase their own desires?

[BBXX]

isn't this the core of why I used a word like selfish?

They could have used that money to improve the life of another, but they chose to use it just to improve their own.

So could any fertile person. Why are they less selfish for having a biological child when they could have chosen to improve the life of one through adoption?

Nobody has biological children for selfless reasons, let's be clear, but it seems like only infertile people or couples who biologically cannot have children together have the responsibility to make a child's life better while fertile and straight people can do as they please without your judgement. Just seems an odd angle to take that's all, but you're entitled to that opinion.


Honestly, and I am making an assumption here so I am open to being corrected, it seems to me that someone on the Left should really be arguing for adoption rather than the wealthy using money to satisfy their own wants.

A community should look after each other, not just chase their own desires?

I've always said I'm socially left wing and economically right wing. If someone wants to spend their own money to improve their life, I have no issue with that.

Someone spending their own money to have biological children instead of adopting is their own choice and I'm not going to judge them for it in the same way I wouldn't judge someone who CAN have children biologically for the same choice.

I think adoption is great and I have a lot of respect for those who both adopt and foster. But also, I'm very aware I've made the choice to never have children through any means because they would inexplicably make my life worse. So I can't stand on my high horse and judge others for not adopting when I never will.

If people on this thread feel so highly about adoption, they can do so. If they choose not to, while judging others for making the same choice then I am not sure what to say.

[BBXX]

The best choice is not always the most comfortable one for ourselves. Sometimes we need someone to point that out.


Also, very few people going through infertility wants to hear this from anyone, whether you think it's your job to point it out or not (which it isn't).

It's akin to telling someone experiencing mental health problems instead of them paying for therapy have they just tried not feeling sad.

[Niamh.]

I think the wider debate here is whether you agree with Surrogacy/Sperm donation. The fact that Zelah is trans is really neither here nor there, as others have pointed out these issues aren't specific to only trans people

[vesavius]

So could any fertile person.

Again, this is a conversation from my position is mainly about the cost of the process and now it could be better spent improving the life of a child in need.

Do I need to say that fertilising an egg is usually free?


nobody has biological children for selfless reasons, let's be clear.

Seems quite bold to speak for everything like this.


If people on this thread feel so highly about adoption, they can do so. If they choose not to, while judging others for making the same choice then I am not sure what to say.

I mean, who does this apply to here in this thread?

[AnnieK]

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

[vesavius]

Also, very few people going through infertility wants to hear this from anyone, whether you think it's your job to point it out or not (which it isn't).

Again, what we want to hear and what we need to hear are often not the same things.

I don't think that it's your job to tell me what my job is.

It's akin to telling someone experiencing mental health problems instead of them paying for therapy have they just tried not feeling sad

No it isn't. False analogy.

[BBXX]

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

:love:

[vesavius]

it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others

I 100% agree with the first part and I haven't said anything different here.

On the second part, we all judge each other continuously every day.

The entire model of Big Brother is built on that reality.

[Niamh.]

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

:hug:

[Glenn.]

I think people need to keep their noses out of other people’s fertility issues. Unless of course it concerns them directly.

[vesavius]

I think people need to keep their noses out of other people’s fertility issues. Unless of course it concerns them directly.

I think that if you broadcast it on TV for the world to see that it becomes fair game for open discussion.

What else is the show even for?

[Vicky.]

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

:hug:

I tried to get pregnant for 5 years and nothing, had tests and stuff..found a cyst on my ovary but nothing else. Got pregnant finally and had a miscarriage at 8 weeks. Then got pregnant again a month after that with Skye. Then James a few months after having Skye. l never found out what was wrong but thankfully it didn't matter anymore. I feel for anyone going through this and I disagree that 'just adopt' is a great answer. Sounds selfish but I wanted one that was biologically mine

[vesavius]

:hug:

I tried to get pregnant for 5 years and nothing, had tests and stuff..found a cyst on my ovary but nothing else. Got pregnant finally and had a miscarriage at 8 weeks. Then got pregnant again a month after that with Skye. Then James a few months after having Skye. l never found out what was wrong but thankfully it didn't matter anymore. I feel for anyone going through this and I disagree that 'just adopt' is a great answer. Sounds selfish but I wanted one that was biologically mine

I feel people are misunderstanding what I have been saying.

My point is that, IMO, the money spent forcing such a thing could be better spent improving the life of a child with no home and that choosing to spend that money on personal wants over the needs of a child doesn't feel right to me personally.

It doesn't sound like what I have been saying would fit your case at all?

[Glenn.]

I think that if you broadcast it on TV for the world to see that it becomes fair game for open discussion.

What else is the show even for?

A passing remark about eggs was the cause for a transphobic thread to be made. As far as I’m concerned it’s just a way to be ignorant.

Zelahs fertility is no one’s business and certainly not the OP who does not care one jote. Just another dig at trans people.

[vesavius]

A passing remark about eggs was the cause for a transphobic thread to be made. As far as I’m concerned it’s just a way to be ignorant.

Zelahs fertility is no one’s business and certainly not the OP who does not care one jote. Just another dig at trans people.

So you responded to that perception with a solid dose of heterophobia?

ok...

Not sure you are decreasing the ignorance here really.

Ze's fertility became everyone's business as soon as they talked about it on Big Brother. You don't get to be the big boss and pick and choose what we talk about regarding the show. :shrug:

[Vicky.]

I feel people are misunderstanding what I have been saying.

My point is that, IMO, the money spent forcing such a thing could be better spent improving the life of a child with no home and that choosing to spend that money on personal wants over the needs of a child doesn't feel right to me personally.

It doesn't sound like what I have been saying would fit your case at all?

Yes the money could be spent giving a kid a good life, but you could apply that to anything? Why go on an expensive holiday, you could donate to food banks around the country to help others. And so on

[vesavius]

Yes the money could be spent giving a kid a good life, but you could apply that to anything? Why go on an expensive holiday, you could donate to food banks around the country to help others. And so on

Someone that chose to donate money to, say, help a child rather than go on holiday would get all my love.

I love it when wealthy people choose to make the world better for others.

[Vicky.]

Someone that chose to donate money to, say, help a child rather than go on holiday would get all my love.

I love it when wealthy people make the world better for others.

Yea I agree with that actually

[vesavius]

Yea I agree with that actually

It's basically at the core of everything I have been saying here :love:

[Ammi]

Having spent 10 years dealing with being unable to have a child in my 20s and going through multiple fertility treatments, I will say that I was always going to explore every avenue to be able to carry my own child before exploring any other options? Does that make me selfish? Possibly but it was what I wanted to do. After everything failed (IUI, IVF and IVF with ICSI), i did start to explore adoption and the process looked brutal. Thankfully, I did manage to fall pregnant naturally after everything and so didn't need to explore further but as with everything, it should always be down to the individual on how they manage their journey to parenthood - whatever it looks like.

I find it very uncomfortable to judge others - especially having met so many people struggling with infertility and how that affected them.

…:hug:…you’re the person that I’ve most been thinking about in this conversation also…my son and his partner also had fertility treatment intervention as well to conceive…

…I think that it was Niamh that said this is such a layered and wider debate and it is…adopting a baby is something that isn’t alway possible/an option and interestingly in this season of BB we have Elsa who was adopted as a three year old and that older child can have very specific parenting requirements as their childhood trauma/memories can have such an impact on their behaviour…and it’s a bit of a circle situation, isn’t it ….because the very reason that they are open for adoption is often because of parenting that was unable to care for, so the importance of having adopted parenting that can cater for that child’s specific individual needs and issues, is another layer of complexity…

…..BBxX and Vesavius, you’re both two posters that I do love to see discussing these more complex and layered topics as well because you do both approach differently in your mindsets and thoughts but you both equally make very interesting and considered points…and that gets us all listening…(…and learning and thinking…)…which is the perfect thing in a talking forum such as this…:love:..

[vesavius]

BBxX and Vesavius, you’re both two posters that I do love to see discussing these more complex and layered topics as well because you do both approach differently in your mindsets and thoughts but you both equally make very interesting and considered points…and that gets us all listening…(…and learning and thinking…)…which is the perfect thing in a talking forum such as this…:love:..

Thanks. :love:

Yeah, I don't think anyone is a bad person from this, I have no issues with BBXX here because they see it differently. Disagreeing is fine :)

[vesavius]

On a related note... What would make it hard for Ze to conceive if the testosterone hasn't made their egg infertile?

Can anyone tell me in layman's terms? :joker:

[AnnieK]

On a related note... What would make it hard for Ze to conceive if the testosterone hasn't made their egg infertile?

Can anyone tell me in layman's terms? :joker:

Theoretically, I think Ze should be able to conceive a baby and carry one but I think (and obviously don't know for sure) that Zelah wants his partner to carry the child as he feels like a man and so therefore wouldn't want to actually be pregnant but would like to be genetically linked to a child.

[vesavius]

Theoretically, I think Ze should be able to conceive a baby and carry one but I think (and obviously don't know for sure) that Zelah wants his partner to carry the child as he feels like a man and so therefore wouldn't want to actually be pregnant but would like to be genetically linked to a child.

ahh ok, I see, thanks

[Glenn.]

So you responded to that perception with a solid dose of heterophobia?

ok...

Not sure you are decreasing the ignorance here really.

Ze's fertility became everyone's business as soon as they talked about it on Big Brother. You don't get to be the big boss and pick and choose what we talk about regarding the show. :shrug:

I get to call out the transphobia. Regardless of anything, such a deep discussion, rooted in transphobia isn’t necessary.

[Beso]

So ze wants his eggs inside his partner, and then someone has sex to impregnate his partner...

Her a lesbian, forced to have sex with a man, and carry 2 peoples child for nine months...


All sounds very selfish of ze, he seems to be the only one winning here!

And of course the no strings attached sex for the stranger.

[Glenn.]

Jesus Christ people need educating.

[Vicky.]

So ze wants his eggs inside his partner, and then someone has sex to impregnate his partner...

Her a lesbian, forced to have sex with a man, and carry 2 peoples child for nine months...


All sounds very selfish of ze, he seems to be the only one winning here!

And of course the no strings attached sex for the stranger.
..no sex required, that's not how IVF works..

[vesavius]

I get to call out the transphobia. Regardless of anything, such a deep discussion, rooted in transphobia isn’t necessary.

I mean, you can call out perceived transphobia (which I find weird when you are happily to be as equally bigoted as you think others are in the very same thread) all day long, but it doesn't make it true.

But, anyhow, the conversation has happened, so what now?

Can we just note your objection and move on?

[Beso]

Jesus Christ people need educating.

Can't say i care enough to look deeper into it.

[Beso]

I take it this isn't free on the NHS

[Glenn.]

Can't say i care enough to look deeper into it.

Obviously. Not at all surprised though given your track record

[AnnieK]

I take it this isn't free on the NHS

Depends on the area. Same with anyone wanting to access IVF on NHS, each Trust has its own criteria. I had to pay for my IVF due to my partner already having biological children from a prior relationship. IVF on the NHS is very much a postcode lottery with really strict criteria.

[BBXX]

Why do people have such strong opinions on things they know nothing about :spin:

[BBXX]

I mean, you can call out perceived transphobia (which I find weird when you are happily to be as equally bigoted as you think others are in the very same thread) all day long, but it doesn't make it true.


I mean you can call out perceived heterophobia all day long but it doesn't make it true.

[Glenn.]

Like I said earlier in the thread. Imagine being triggered by surrogacy.

Except it’s not the surrogacy part, it’s the trans part that’s got certain members triggered. Certain members who are obsessed with other people’s reproductive organs and such. It’s weird as hell.

[vesavius]

I mean you can call out perceived heterophobia all day long but it doesn't make it true.

C'mon now BBXX, I was just done saying that this had been a good discussion and I had no issues with you at all, no need for the attempted cheap gotcha point scoring.

I wouldn't have mentioned the heterophobia if the tired old cliches of transphobia hadn't been wheeled out first instead of a reasonable argument or valid point made and you know it.

Like I said earlier in the thread. Imagine being triggered by surrogacy.

Except it’s not the surrogacy part, it’s the trans part that’s got certain members triggered.

'tRiGgEreD' :joker:

honestly, I come here looking for a reasonable discussion on things and you guys always manage to drag it down to this stupid level.

[BBXX]

I wouldn't have mentioned the heterophobia if the tired old cliches of transphobia hadn't been wheeled out first instead of a reasonable argument or valid point made and you know it.

So you mention heterophobia because people dare to suggest the framing of the thread was transphobic in response to the opening post misgendering someone, making out like this was a outlandish situation when it's literally just surrogacy, and a slew of replies saying how 'weird' the situation was due to the child having multiple mums/dads.

Seems an odd thing to object to but cool I guess.

I would bet my life if Zelah born a male (and mentioned surrogacy or IVF between him and his girlfriend) this thread wouldn't exist. CD has form of having issue with trans people.

If it quacks like a duck a walks like a duck it's usually a ****ing duck.

[vesavius]

So you mention... rant rant blah blah blah

Good grief :joker::joker:

I would bet my life if Zelah born a male (and mentioned surrogacy or IVF between him and his girlfriend) this thread wouldn't exist. CD has form of having issue with trans people.

Nothing that I have said in this thread would be different if Ze had been born a male.

I don't care what others have said, I am not responsible for them.

What I will say though is that you perceiving them to be transphobic is NOT a shield for you to flex your own bigotry. You don't fix bigoted nonsense with more bigoted nonsense. You definitely don't have a license to be bigoted while trying to call others out for it. In fact, it makes your behaviour worse because you should know better if you are so aware of it all. The hypocrisy was deliberate.

And that was the point being made with the heterophobic quip. I am clarifying it because it clearly went right over your head.

[Barry.]

So ze wants his eggs inside his partner, and then someone has sex to impregnate his partner...

Her a lesbian, forced to have sex with a man, and carry 2 peoples child for nine months...


All sounds very selfish of ze, he seems to be the only one winning here!

And of course the no strings attached sex for the stranger.

She won’t need to have sex with a man.

[Glenn.]

A whole thread on why and how a trans person chooses to have a baby.

[BBXX]

Good grief :joker::joker:



Nothing that I have said in this thread would be different if Ze had been born a male.

I don't care what others have said, I am not responsible for them.

What I will say though is that you perceiving them to be transphobic is NOT a shield for you to flex your own bigotry. You don't fix bigoted nonsense with more bigoted nonsense. You definitely don't have a license to be bigoted while trying to call others out for it. In fact, it makes your behaviour worse because you should know better if you are so aware of it all. The hypocrisy was deliberate.

And that was the point being made with the heterophobic quip. I am clarifying it because it clearly went right over your head.

I didn't say anything bigoted.

I know you didn't create the thread and I'm not asking you to answer for them or take responsibility for them. I'm explaining to you why there was a suggestion the thread was transphobic.

I was clarifying it for you, because it clearly went right over your head.

[vesavius]

I didn't say anything bigoted.

I know you didn't create the thread and I'm not asking you to answer for them or take responsibility for them. I'm explaining to you why there was a suggestion the thread was transphobic.

I was clarifying it for you, because it clearly went right over your head.

What you posted was as heterophobic as the comments you are so alarmed by are transphobic. And you did so intentionally.

TBH, I am done here with you anyhow, so whatever.

What was actually a decent debate on it all has been derailed with this bottomfeeding bullshit. I regret letting you and Glenn drag me down to your level.

[Glenn.]

What is appalling is the entitlement you have to think you can debate anybody’s fertility.

[vesavius]

What is appalling is the entitlement you have to think you can debate anybody’s fertility.

Calling bigotry an opinion is like calling arsenic a flavour

[Glenn.]

I was using your own logic against you

[BBXX]

What you posted was as heterophobic as the comments you are so alarmed by are transphobic. And you did so intentionally.

TBH, I am done here anyhow, so whatever.

What was actually a decent debate on it all has been derailed with this bottomfeeding bullshit. I regret letting you and Glenn drag me down to your level.

I am heterophobic because I think it's shitty for straight people without fertility issues who choose having a biological child over adoption to judge other straight people with fertility issues (and those who cannot biologically have children together) to do the same.

What awful bigotry (said in defence of other straight people).

[vesavius]

I am heterophobic

There we go.

[BBXX]

There we go.

Oh, you're back!

I thought we had broken up.

[Livia]

Zelah and partner are not infertile. You can't really equate this with people going through IVF. Zelah has chosen to live as a man but wants one of his eggs (excuse the screaming paradox there) implanted in his girlfriend. I hope they're paying for this nonsense themselves.

[BBXX]

Zelah and partner are not infertile. You can't really equate this with people going through IVF. Zelah has chosen to live as a man but wants one of his eggs (excuse the screaming paradox there) implanted in his girlfriend. I hope they're paying for this nonsense themselves.

It's the fact they are paying for it themselves that has people calling them selfish because that money could be spent on an existing child.

Now it's an issue if they're getting done on the NHS.

So they literally can't win. People just don't want trans people to be parents without judgement, it seems.

[Mystic Mock]

Yes there will be circumstances where someone's child is taken off them due to extenuating circumstances, such as poor mental health or addiction. But there's also many times when it's simply through poor choice.

What's being said is... straight people who have no fertility issues can keep on having babies without ever being labelled selfish for doing so...

...and it's the job of people who can't have babies biologically without medical help - ie: gay people, trans people and people with fertility issues - to adopt these children before having their own biological babies, or be labelled selfish and weird.

Also, the idea that people think it's okay to turn around to someone they know is struggling with fertility and say "why don't you just adopt" is so insensitive. Regardless of all the other stuff I implore whoever thinks that would be okay to please rethink, many people who are going through the ordeal of IVF would find that so inappropriate.

Tbh, that's not something that I would agree with anyway.

I'm all for supporting whatever decision the particular couple in question chooses to make.

[Mystic Mock]

So ze wants his eggs inside his partner, and then someone has sex to impregnate his partner...

Her a lesbian, forced to have sex with a man, and carry 2 peoples child for nine months...


All sounds very selfish of ze, he seems to be the only one winning here!

And of course the no strings attached sex for the stranger.

This post has made my eyes water.:joker: