Christmas Debates - Has the true meaning of Christmas gone?

[Magic]

Leading up to Christmas, in this thread we will be discuing issues based on Christmas.


Some of the issue's up for discussion later include -

1. Is christmas just a money making scam?


2. Should only religious people celebrate christmas?
3. Should parents lie to their children regarding Santa? :tongue:
4. Is christmas too comercial?
5. Has the true meaning of Christmas gone?

If you have a issue regarding Christmas you would like to be discussed, please post here.

[Scarlett.]

Nah, it kinda is but it brings familys together and is a day where you can just rest:hugesmile:

[Ann]

I think it,s A Day For The Children To Enjoy Opening Their Presents and Having A Great Day To Celebrate With Family At The Table and I Love Seeing Their Faces As They Are Doing So Too.:hug:

[Retroman]

1. No it isn't JUST a money making scam, though money making scams do go on at Christmas time.

2. To be fair, yes...only Christians can truly celebrate Christmas for what it is. Im Atheist and was never baptised, but still celebrate it for the sake of presents/family/food and decorations =] but that's the point, non religious people celebrate it for reasons that have nothing to do with what Christmas is actually about.

3. I can't remember the days when I did believe in Santa, so to me it wouldn't matter...though perhaps not having the joy of Santa in your life cound effect you psychologically later on? so perhaps it's better to have a little "magic" in your life at a young age, because it'll all be gone when you're older.

[Magic]

Originally posted by Chewy
Nah, it kinda is but it brings familys together and is a day where you can just rest:hugesmile:

But what about all the adverts, that start in October, which attempt to sell there toy. Parents feel forced to buy presents for there children, because its the must have toy.

How many people do you know that think of Christmas as JUST a time for familys?

How many people go in dept each year becuase of buying pointless presents?

[Scarlett.]

But its a time to be jolly:colour:

[Wasted]

1. Christmas is probably the most commercial time of the year, not sure about it being a "money-making scam" though. People are always looking to make money at any time of the year.

2. I don't think so really. Even a lot of people who have religious faith and beliefs mainly see the commercial side as well as its religious meaning anyway. And apart from commercialism and religion, there are other sides to Christmas that are sentimental - like spending time with your family and giving, you don't have to be religious to do either of those. It's a time of year that a lot of people look forward to, religious or not. Even though Christmas is fundamentally about the birth of Christ, I guess it means different thing to different people, personally I don't see anything wrong with that.

3. Dunno, lol. There's no harm in it I guess.

[Jackie]

It can be if you let it.I normally buy a few presents each fortnight so i dont have to break the bank.

[Magic]

I also think that commercial giants abuse Christmas.
The true meaning has gone.

[Sunny_01]

1. Is christmas just a money making scam?

There is an awful lot of money made around christmas and some very dodgy traders cash in at this time of year but if people buy wisely they can avoid them.
2. Should only religious people celebrate christmas?

No, christmas now has a double meaning. For those that are not interested in the fact that it is a time to celebrate the birth of christ, it can be a wonderful time that brings families together to enjoy the company of each other. It can be a time for love and kindness, and a time to enjoy exchanging gifts
3. Should parents lie to their children regarding Santa?

Hell yes, why take away the little magic children have in their short lives. All to soon someone bursts the santa bubble for small children. Why take something from them that they clearly love and enjoy.
4. Is christmas too comercial?

Christmas is very commercial now, it is all about buying the biggest gifts, the best toys and spending a lot of money. Does that make it a bad thing? In my opinion no, it makes it a time when people put thought into what they want to get to show others that they care and if the big companies make a mint out of it well so be it.
5. Has the true meaning of Christmas gone?

If you are on about it being a time to celebrate the birth of Christ then yes that does seem a little lost these days. Many small children will know it is when santa comes but not that Jesus was born (even though he actually wasnt born the) That said the magic is still there and surely that is what christmas is all about. At christmas people put aside their ill feelings for others, they are more tolerant and understanding, does that no in itself embrace the true meaning of christmas.

[Dr43%er]

2. Should only religious people celebrate christmas?

By religious do you mean Christians? As there are a lot of religious people out there that don't believe in Christ.

Assuming you did mean Christians. If a Christian says that non Christians should not have anything to do with Christmas, I just point out that as it is a festival stolen from the pagans it is a bit rich of them to lay down the law.

[Hugo]

It is. But it's an enjoyable money making scam.

[Magic]

New Issue

Has the true meaning of Christmas gone now? Is'nt Christmas about the birth of Jesus Christ, not about presents, food, and more commercial stuff?

[Lauren]

Christmas is a public holiday, not a religious holiday.
Therefore no, it had no true meaning in the beginning. It's never been true.

[Magic]

Originally posted by Lauren
Christmas is a public holiday, not a religious holiday.
Therefore no, it had no true meaning in the beginning. It's never been true.

But why did 'Christmas' become a holiday? Doen't it relate to the 'Birth of Jesus'

And isn't a bit extrene to say its never been true. Thats a diffrent issue, and dont you think it's impossible to say that there definetle has been no religion?

P.S - I am not arguing, I am trying to get a depate going :love:

[Scarlett.]

Religous Cards should still be sold:thumbs:

[Lauren]

Originally posted by Magic-Shoes
Originally posted by Lauren
Christmas is a public holiday, not a religious holiday.
Therefore no, it had no true meaning in the beginning. It's never been true.

But why did 'Christmas' become a holiday? Doen't it relate to the 'Birth of Jesus'

And isn't a bit extrene to say its never been true. Thats a diffrent issue, and dont you think it's impossible to say that there definetle has been no religion?

P.S - I am not arguing, I am trying to get a depate going :love:

Jesus wasn't even born on Dec. 25th though - so why did they choose an original pagan festival date to make 'Christmas' ?

Also, I didn't say there was no religion - I accept people have religion and faith even if I don't - I meant just this particular holiday.

[Magic]

Originally posted by Lauren
Originally posted by Magic-Shoes
Originally posted by Lauren
Christmas is a public holiday, not a religious holiday.
Therefore no, it had no true meaning in the beginning. It's never been true.

But why did 'Christmas' become a holiday? Doen't it relate to the 'Birth of Jesus'

And isn't a bit extrene to say its never been true. Thats a diffrent issue, and dont you think it's impossible to say that there definetle has been no religion?

P.S - I am not arguing, I am trying to get a depate going :love:

Jesus wasn't even born on Dec. 25th though - so why did they choose an original pagan festival date to make 'Christmas' ?

Also, I didn't say there was no religion - I accept people have religion and faith even if I don't - I meant just this particular holiday.

I heard that too - Jesus was apparently 'born' in may! <(How would someone know the month?)

But wasnt the meaning of Christmas to celebrate the birth of Jesus, God's son?

[Scarlett.]

There will be records of Jesus being born, as he was a real person, if he was gods son depends if you belive in Christianity, plus the census done on the day would have made it easy to tell when it happened, so more likely than not, it may be his birthday

[Lauren]

The original "christmas" was called Winter Solstice... it was a Pagan festival to celebrate the changing of seasons. This involved giving 'presents' to people to bide them through cold times. Personally I believe this is where the modern day Christmas comes from.

However, in early Roman times there was arguments between Pagans and the Church of England and at the time the CoE was a moneymaking beauracratic hierarchy where the people at the top made a LOT of money - it is believed they chose Dec. 25th in order to try and convert Pagans to Christianity.

Obviously other people have varying opinions on this, but I don't see the religious connotations of Christmas - since originally its simply a festival to mark the changing of seasons. I accept, however, that Christians like to celebrate the birth of Jesus on this day and I'm not opposed to this - just personally for me it's nothing to do with this.

Edit: Chewy, there were a few people named Jesus on the census around that time but since its been translated and retranslated from early Hebrew we can't get an exact date of birth. Also, they have numerous documents from the time of 'Jesus' (i.e., the people on the census) and from none of these documents do they mention a miracle-maker carpenter. Strange, considering the things he did. However, I'm not prepared to tear about the concept of religion right now cos I do respect others faith and don't want to be disrespectful as to counteract the bible.

[Magic]

Originally posted by Lauren
The original "christmas" was called Winter Solstice... it was a Pagan festival to celebrate the changing of seasons. This involved giving 'presents' to people to bide them through cold times. Personally I believe this is where the modern day Christmas comes from.

However, in early Roman times there was arguments between Pagans and the Church of England and at the time the CoE was a moneymaking beauracratic hierarchy where the people at the top made a LOT of money - it is believed they chose Dec. 25th in order to try and convert Pagans to Christianity.

Obviously other people have varying opinions on this, but I don't see the religious connotations of Christmas - since originally its simply a festival to mark the changing of seasons. I accept, however, that Christians like to celebrate the birth of Jesus on this day and I'm not opposed to this - just personally for me it's nothing to do with this.

So, still, hasn't the true meaning of Christmas gone?

[Lauren]

If by the true meaning of christmas you mean we give presents to bide people through cold times, then yes - the true Pagan festival of winter solstice has gone :laugh: But thats cos we live in such a modern world where we don't have to bide people through cold times - they can just pop down to Asda for that!

[spacebandit]

Jesus was born, and so I get presents,
Thank You, Jesus, for being born

Eric Theodore Cartman

[Sticks]

Flavius Josephus and Tacitus are hostile sources who confirm that Jesus existed.

As for the date of Jesus birth, I have heard a good argument for October, around the beginning of Tishri, which is of Jewish significance. There is also a date in April given by some. It is clear, it was not 25 December.

The festival Christmas supplanted was the 12 feasting days of Saturnali, and only came in in 325 CE

According to some Christian contacts I have spoken to, they do not celebrate or recognise Christmas, as the New Testament does not authorise or command us to celebrate Jesus birth.

Christmas is therefore, unscriptuaral. It may be pagan as well, but I am not using that as a derogative in deference to the Pagans here on the board.

I prefer Hanukkah anyway, which is mentioned in the New Testament, in the Gospel of John and referred to as the winter festival.

[KawaiiSakura1]

1. Is christmas just a money making scam? no


2. Should only religious people celebrate christmas? no
3. Should parents lie to their children regarding Santa? no
4. Is christmas too comercial? no
5. Has the true meaning of Christmas gone? no

All No's lol

[bigbr0ther]

1. Is christmas just a money making scam? If it is, it sure didn't start out that way. Christmas has been around for thousands of years, since before Jesus (yes, before Jesus).
2. Should only religious people celebrate christmas? Of course not. Christmas can be for everyone.
3. Should parents lie to their children regarding Santa? No. Lying is inexcusable. Be honest with your kids and tell them you're playing "The Santa Game." This allows them to have the fun of Santa, while still knowing it's really just a game and that Santa doesn't exist.
4. Is christmas too comercial? I don't think so. Personally I think it's the consumers who have made the stores obsess over it. It makes sense that at Christmas there's a higher demand, so we can't blame the stores for meeting that demand.
5. Has the true meaning of Christmas gone? Yes! Most people don't even know that the true meaning is to celebrate the shortest day of the year (or what was thought to be at the time, at least). Now everyone thinks it's to celebrate Jesus' birthday, which was actually on September 29th!

[bananarama]

Xmas has always been a money making scam. Based on fairy tales and exploited by big business.......

[Sticks]

Originally posted by bananarama
Xmas has always been a money making scam. Based on fairy tales and exploited by big business.......

See my reference to Flavius Josephus and Tacitus

Also add in Polycarp and Pliny the younger

The nearest to "fairy tales" would be the nativity depiction compared to the accounts given in Matthew and Luke

It is worthy of note that Cromwell passed anti-Christmas legislation, which showed his contempt for the season even back then.

These laws were never repealed

[Tom]

1. Is christmas just a money making scam? Kind of
2. Should only religious people celebrate christmas? People claiming to be atheist shouldn't
3. Should parents lie to their children regarding Santa? What do you mean, LIE?! :shocked:
4. Is christmas too comercial? Yes
5. Has the true meaning of Christmas gone? Yes, but its still an excuse for a party so its all good :tongue:

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Tom
People claiming to be atheist shouldn't

Why is this? Don't atheists get to have fun too?

[Tom]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by Tom
People claiming to be atheist shouldn't

Why is this? Don't atheists get to have fun too?

If someone is an atheist and is that strong about being one, then they wouldn't celebrate anything with religious roots. Its a bit contradictory IMO.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by TomIf someone is an atheist and is that strong about being one, then they wouldn't celebrate anything with religious roots. Its a bit contradictory IMO.

I'm an Episcopalian myself but the fact is that Christmas doesn't actually have religious roots. It's been around since before Jesus and the idea is to celebrate what was thought to be the shortest day of the year. Unfortunately it's been skewed to be about Jesus' birthday. I think we should celebrate Jesus' birthday but not on Christmas. Historians believe he was actually born on September 29th, so this is the day we should celebrate the birth of Christ. Christmas should be a separate holiday entirely.

[Fom]

I have a big opinion on this and i am completely open about this. And yes I do think it has gone, for the better? I think so.

I dont celebrate "Christmas" I celebrate "Xmas" the commercial version, I dont believe in god, I dont believe in Jesus. I believe in the family getting together for a meal giving each other presents while listening to songs you can only listen to on that day. Its special in its own way, None religious people should still be able to celebrate Christmas its not just a religious holiday anymore its a time when the world comes together and forgets everything and gets along.
If people dont like Atheists celebrating it well I dont care, Me and my family enjoy it and to me that is all that matters, i dont give two flying donkeys about wether I am harming the religion, Christianity means nothing to me. The same in fact goes for easter, to me... easter is just an excuse to eat chocolate and have some time off. Do I care about the roots or religion? Do I heck, If I am having fun why does it matter? Thats a big reason I am atheist in the first place, I have better things to do with my time than to read a stupid made up book and read its rules and follow them, Im gonna live life my way and I will do what I want.
If I want to celebrate Ramadan, I will! No one Muslim is going to stop me.

[Spike]

Originally posted by Fom
I have a big opinion on this and i am completely open about this. And yes I do think it has gone, for the better? I think so.

I dont celebrate "Christmas" I celebrate "Xmas" the commercial version, I dont believe in god, I dont believe in Jesus. I believe in the family getting together for a meal giving each other presents while listening to songs you can only listen to on that day. Its special in its own way, None religious people should still be able to celebrate Christmas its not just a religious holiday anymore its a time when the world comes together and forgets everything and gets along.
If people dont like Atheists celebrating it well I dont care, Me and my family enjoy it and to me that is all that matters, i dont give two flying donkeys about wether I am harming the religion, Christianity means nothing to me. The same in fact goes for easter, to me... easter is just an excuse to eat chocolate and have some time off. Do I care about the roots or religion? Do I heck, If I am having fun why does it matter? Thats a big reason I am atheist in the first place, I have better things to do with my time than to read a stupid made up book and read its rules and follow them, Im going to live life my way and I will do what I want.
If I want to celebrate Ramadan, I will! No one Muslim is going to stop me.

Thats exactly my thoughts on it and I also celebrate Xmas

[Jen]

Originally posted by Fom
I have a big opinion on this and i am completely open about this. And yes I do think it has gone, for the better? I think so.

I dont celebrate "Christmas" I celebrate "Xmas" the commercial version, I dont believe in god, I dont believe in Jesus. I believe in the family getting together for a meal giving each other presents while listening to songs you can only listen to on that day. Its special in its own way, None religious people should still be able to celebrate Christmas its not just a religious holiday anymore its a time when the world comes together and forgets everything and gets along.
If people dont like Atheists celebrating it well I dont care, Me and my family enjoy it and to me that is all that matters, i dont give two flying donkeys about wether I am harming the religion, Christianity means nothing to me. The same in fact goes for easter, to me... easter is just an excuse to eat chocolate and have some time off. Do I care about the roots or religion? Do I heck, If I am having fun why does it matter? Thats a big reason I am atheist in the first place, I have better things to do with my time than to read a stupid made up book and read its rules and follow them, Im going to live life my way and I will do what I want.
If I want to celebrate Ramadan, I will! No one Muslim is going to stop me.

I am in the exact same position..I don't believe in God, Jesus, Zues.. Whatev...well maybe Zues.. :P
But I celebrate Xmas..I don't want to feel horrible because 2000 years ago a guy was born and all MY love on a special day should go towards him... i LOVE presents...I don't need the Jee-Man telling me what to do...

Thanks :P

[Conor]

Originally posted by bigbr0ther
Originally posted by TomIf someone is an atheist and is that strong about being one, then they wouldn't celebrate anything with religious roots. Its a bit contradictory IMO.

I'm an Episcopalian myself but the fact is that Christmas doesn't actually have religious roots. It's been around since before Jesus and the idea is to celebrate what was thought to be the shortest day of the year. Unfortunately it's been skewed to be about Jesus' birthday. I think we should celebrate Jesus' birthday but not on Christmas. Historians believe he was actually born on September 29th, so this is the day we should celebrate the birth of Christ. Christmas should be a separate holiday entirely.

But real or not, if the bible wasn't written it would today be a small pegan festival most people would never hear about in their life. Same can be said for 'Xmas,' it wouldn't exist otherwise. Muslims and Hindus and Sieks don't celebrate it. Why athiests.

I'm guessing not many athiests will celebrate smaller Christian events.

[Sticks]

As a Christian, I do not recognise Christmas, as the Bible does not authorise us or command us to celebrate Jesus birth.

The celebration of Christmas and Easter, came later.

If anything, as stated, I prefer the Jewish festival Hanukkah, which is mentioned in the Gospel of John.

That said, what about atheists celebrating at this time, and getting together with the rest of the family and spending time together. I see no problem with that. The only problem I would have, is why limit yourselves to one day a year. Why need an excuse for a family get together.

If people want to celebrate the return of the Sun, and the beginning of the end of winter, let me know and I might join you, (minus dodgy robes and with a proper winter coat). It's all a celebration of God's wonderful creation.

[Emzy-!!]

I think in England Christmas is all about the presents, but in America they really care about the whole thing because they go to church and make a massive deal out of it.

[gavinh2008]

I mainly look forward to the atmosphere of Christmas, mainly Christmas Eve too, I just love the whole scenery around that time, the decorations, the happy people, I do love presents but I can live without

[Conor]

Originally posted by Emzy-!!
I think in England Christmas is all about the presents, but in America they really care about the whole thing because they go to church and make a massive deal out of it.

America is actually 10 times more commercial.

[Indierock&roll]

i love christmas but i used to like it a lot better when i did believe in santa, it was more christmassy because id watch christmas films and it would be like aw
i do still love it though

[Fom]

Originally posted by Conor
Originally posted by Emzy-!!
I think in England Christmas is all about the presents, but in America they really care about the whole thing because they go to church and make a massive deal out of it.

America is actually 10 times more commercial.

Well its 50/50
Its a big country... a lot of people stick to the routes, and a lot dont!

[bigbr0ther]

Wow, a LOT of shallow people on this thread. Case in point.

Originally posted by JDIZZEL
I don't want to feel horrible because 2000 years ago a guy was born and all MY love on a special day should go towards him... i LOVE presents...I don't need the Jee-Man telling me what to do...

Thanks :P

What a sad state the world is in.

[Princess]

I think the meaning of Christmas has changed for most people but I don't think it has gone. Before Christmas was all religion and the miracle of Christ and all that. But now because more people are open about how they feel about religion,the views of what Christmas are has changed.

I don't believe it is a money-making scam. I think it is about the Christmas atmosphere-putting up deccies with your family,going christmas shopping with friends,having everyone you meet wish you a 'merry christmas'. It is universally a happy time and a time for people to come together and enjoy Christmas together.

It may not be about religion anymore but the love is still there.

[bigbr0ther]

Originally posted by Princess
I think the meaning of Christmas has changed for most people but I don't think it has gone. Before Christmas was all religion and the miracle of Christ and all that. But now because more people are open about how they feel about religion,the views of what Christmas are has changed.

I don't believe it is a money-making scam. I think it is about the Christmas atmosphere-putting up deccies with your family,going christmas shopping with friends,having everyone you meet wish you a 'merry christmas'. It is universally a happy time and a time for people to come together and enjoy Christmas together.

It may not be about religion anymore but the love is still there.

:mad:

Christmas.
Is.
Not.
About.
The.
Birth.
Of.
Christ.

It's.
About.
The.
Shortest.
Day.
Of.
The.
Year.

Nothing.
Religious.
About.
It.

Thanks.

[30stone]

Meh i love christmas the meaning of christmas came back to me last years

where my parents didnt argue we done a lot of family things and had an amazing christmas day.

go out on the first weekend of december to get our tree as a family it was great and then seeing how happy my grandparents were is just bliss.

Though sadly my dad and brother fell out with his parents and my mums parents so christmas wont be so good though its still a work in progress im tyring to make it all work.

[andyman]

ahhhg just have to love the romans, there work echos through time.

[Hugo]

Yes. It has.

[chas]

of course the meaning of christmas has gone,all it is now is "money and what am i going to get",its too commercialized for sure

[SiaSiaSia]

they were thinking of renaming it "Present Day".

that's awful.