Nadia - Male or Female?

[Deus Ex Machina]

She-Devil and I are debating this at the moment.
So, is Nadia a man, or a woman?

Here are two points to get you started:
1. If you put a lemon into orange peel, does it suddenly become an orange?
2. If I decided that I wanted to be a God, would you all treat me like one?

[She Devil]

Nadia is most definately all woman.

[guesto]

1. Nadia was an orange in a lemon peel when she was born. Now she's got an orange peel on. If you get me.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Apart from that small matter of a 'Y' chromosome in every cell in his body!

A 'man' is a male adult human. A 'woman' is a female adult human.

No matter how hard he tries, Nadia cannot change the laws of nature.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Originally posted by guesto
1. Nadia was an orange in a lemon peel when she was born. Now she's got an orange peel on. If you get me.

So she was psychologically ill.
That doesn't exactly change her genetic make-up, does it?

[Requiem]

Nadia is either a he or an it but definatley not a she. I thought it was unfair to put 7 men in the house and only 5 women in at the beginning, and it was even more unfair the way none of the people in the house with him knows that he is really a he. Imagine if Victor sh*gged him then found out when he got out that it was really a man. Actually that would be quite funny.

[Requiem]

Nadia is a man without a d*ck, Thats all thats changed.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Originally posted by Requiem
Imagine if Victor sh*gged him then found out when he got out that it was really a man.

I've been thinking about that - do you think Victor could sue for defamation of character if that happened?

[Deus Ex Machina]

Originally posted by Requiem
Nadia is either a he or an it but definatley not a she.

Legally, Nadia is an 'it', or, more specifically, 'undefinable'.

[guesto]

[
So she was psychologically ill.
That doesn't exactly change her genetic make-up, does it?

No, you're right - it doesn't. But try looking at it beyond genetic make-up. I believe that there is something within all of us that makes us who we are - that includes our gender. A kind of 'soul' I guess. Trans-gender people feel that they are born in the wrong body - so Nadia would have felt that there was something wrong from an early age - and - when she was old enough to figure it out - that she was a 'woman' trapped in a man's body. That's as I understand it.

[Kore]

yeh, but omg she is damn boring, you can say that :joker: rorlforlf

[bananarama]

Although I am not keen on Nadia (Mainly due to her nicotine tantrums). I do feel for her and respect the position she is in to refer to her as her.

With the male/female predicament she has been in I suspect she has been to hell and back.

Ultimately though I don't believe surgical intervention can change what actually is. Genetically Nadia is still a male. Emotionally she is a women. The sugeons have only made her look more like how she feels she is.

It's a heart breaking condition to be born with. In spite of my insults and scathing comments about her I would wish her all the happiness she can find.......

[Sticks]

My understanding was that in law Nardia would be regarded as a male, but someone has said that there has been a change in the law. Any clues on that technicality ? :conf:

[Deus Ex Machina]

Yeah, I said so up there ^^

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
Legally, Nadia is an 'it', or, more specifically, 'undefinable'.

[Julia L]

Nadia is a woman. And calling her "it" is a very harsh, cruel word.

[Kore]

yup, sort of, but im not voting nadia to win out of sympathy.
shes has a horrible personality

[golden~rose]

sounds like quite a few of you here are descriminating against transexuals (and that infuriates me) how do i know that the few of you may even be racist??

anyways nadia is a women, if shes finished the whole converting treatment, then she is 100% women!!

[Amy]

Nadia can be what ever she wants to be just like you and I can do whatever we want to do! I see Nadia as a woman and she was obviously not happy so it's up to her to change the way she is for her happiness.

[LovesTania]

Nadia is a half. She is still a man deep inside herself, and does probly fancy women a bit still, but the fact remains she feels she would rather be wih a man than a girl. Therefore her new appearance and her personality make up half a sex. So there are 5 girls and 5 boys and one half.

[Deus Ex Machina]

SCIENCE!
GENETICS!
MALE!

[p2pnut]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
SCIENCE!
GENETICS!
MALE!

Psuedo Science!
Misunderstood Genetics!

People who have lived with an unclearly defined gender allocation have more than enough problems to deal with, without suffering the insults of those whose prejudice is matched only by their ignorance of science.

I can assure Deus Ex Machina that the allocation of x/y genes is nowhere near as clearly defined as he/she appears to think.

Apart from congenital variations at birth (manifested by an hemaphroditic mix of sexual characteristics) there are many recorded instances of gender transformation in nature. This is not simply a human trait, but is to be found in most species.

The reasons for this phenomena are many and varied. Among others they may be caused by temperature dependent gender allocation in some species, medication dependent shifts in humans and transformation of sex allocating chromosones due to pollution factors.

Given the true facts (available to anyone in possesion of an internet connection and an open, inquiring mind) I am surprised to see the level of bias and ignorance displayed in these and other fora.

I suspect that those who voice the strongest negative views are less doubtful about Nadia's sexual status and more confused by their own sexual orientation. For instance, latent homosexuality (especially in men and boys) is frequently manifested as rampant homophobia by those who have yet to come to terms with the range of possibilities inherent in their sexual makeup.

So, come on you confused young detractors - step out of that claustrophobic closet and embrace your own homosexual potential ......... you never know, it might make a man of you.

[LEE]

Originally posted by guesto
1. Nadia was an orange in a lemon peel when she was born. Now she's got an orange peel on. If you get me. Absolutely guesto, and well said.

I find it deeply saddening that there are so many prejudiced people around.

[BB6 housemate]

If a cow is born in a stable does it make it a horse

[shellspeare]

nadias female because she has chosen to be female, its a free country, only small minded people dont accept this, and they should. whats it to them anyway what gender she has chosen to be, the woman has had enough to put up with already, give her a break!
nature can mess up, siemese twins etc...... nadia was a female born into the wrong body..... no bigy!

[p2pnut]

Originally posted by BB6 housemate
If a cow is born in a stable does it make it a horse

Oh dear! One tries so hard to point these young people towards the true facts - but obviously ignorance is bliss for those who choose not to accept reality.

By the way, all you lil guys who still can't get your heads around the basics of genetics, what scientific source are you basing your prejudice on ....... The Sun?

I prefer to base my information on my experience and knowledge, gained from 30 years working with people who experience mental health problems ....... including some who have had to address their own gender re-allocation.

For those of you who still suffer from doubts and prejudice, I can only refer you to the last two paragraphs of my previous post (above).

[BB6 housemate]

If God wanted Nadia or Nigel whatever you want to call him, to be a woman then she'd have been a woman. Surely the NHS should be spending money on worthwhile operations not on chopping of d***s because someone doesn't want it. Somebody with cancer could have died because he (nigel) wanted his d**k chopping off.

Men are Men
&
Women are Women

You are what your born.

VIC TO WIN

[Amy]

Originally posted by LEE
I find it deeply saddening that there are so many prejudiced people around.

Agree LEE it's awful.

[Deus Ex Machina]

I find it saddning that people are bending over backward so hard to be 'politically correct' that they can't see facts.

Nadia is male. He was born male, and will never be female.

So what if he chooses to look like a woman? He's nothing more than a high-tech drag queen.

As for "nadias female because she has chosen to be female, its a free country, only small minded people dont accept this".
Well, that's a good point. Maybe we should free all the pedofiles and rapists, after all, they made the choice, and it's a free world.

Unbelievable.

[BB6 housemate]

i agree

we might aswell allow all these asylum seekers in aswell

:shocked:

lets hope there's some more like Ahmed

a = amazing
h = hero
m = mega
e = EEEEEEEEEEEEAAASSSY
d = dillerious

[p2pnut]

Dear 'Deus Ex Machina' & 'BB6 housemate',

Well dearies, judging by your avid interest in Nadia's gender, this is obviously an area that strangely draws you.

I can see, from your complete lack of scientific knowledge, that you girls must be very confused and, possibly, a little frightened by the subject of sexuality - especially your own I suspect.

Don't worry my loves, we understand ....... it is sooo difficult coming out isn't it?

I may have retired from my work in the Psychiatric field, but I just want to let you know that I am always available, should you want to talk things over (in complete confidence of course).

On the plus side ....... at least you have found one another. I do hope that you will find comfort and support in your new-found friendship ----- awww, Bless!

Peace and Love

p2pnut

[Deus Ex Machina]

A psychiatrist that doesn't understand basic genetics?
Rrrright - and I'm Jon Tickle.

Bet you love the fact that school's broken up, huh?

[Kore]

GET BORING NADIA OUT.
boring, moody and childish, and fake!
09011 21 44 08
text NADIA to 84444

[Deus Ex Machina]

Spam monkey.

[LEE]

I'm replused by some of the views on this thread.

[john2000]

nadia is a complete woman inside n outside

[Kore]

yup shes woman inside and out, definately!
but damn shes moody, boring and unentertaining isnt she?
:bored::bored::bored: get her out of that house

[Deus Ex Machina]

Originally posted by LEE
I'm replused by some of the views on this thread.

Such as?

[LEE]

The narrow minded, bigotted ones put forward by yourself and some others.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Hahaha!

You mean the scientifically correct ones?

[Deus Ex Machina]

Okay, quick test - you're a guy, right Lee?

[Sticks]

I am leaving the scientific and ethical side of the debate on this, while this thread remains unlocked (A status I suspect will change if the way certain posters are going on here)

My question is one of law.

In times past, if someone had a gender realignment, in the eyes of British law they had to be considered their original gender. This was even tested in the international court of human rights many years ago by a transexual claiming that British law breached human rights, they lost.

I heard somewhere that the law has changed.

Is this the case and if so when did it change?

[Deus Ex Machina]

Hmm - Google confirms the loss at the human rights court, but not any change since.

[liliacqueen]

i see nadia as a woman as she acts like a woman although she may have manly features she is still a woman.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Have you all heard of a disease called 'Otherkin'?
It's a clinically recognised ailment where the sufferer is convinced that they should be (or in fact are) an animal.

So, if an Otherkin sufferer says he is a dog, do you agree with him?

[liliacqueen]

but somebody who is human saying there a dog is diffrent to a human saying what sex they nadia looks like a female and if nadia wants to be female then let her be a female. just because she dosent have femal things such as a uterus does i really matter? but we are all entitled to our own openions.

[flyfly5]

Originally posted by BB6 housemate
Surely the NHS should be spending money on worthwhile operations not on chopping of d***s because someone doesn't want it. Somebody with cancer could have died because he (nigel) wanted his d**k chopping off.

You're entitled to your opinion, but the human race wouldnt get around to doing anything fun, if we tried to cure all diseases beforehand.

[flyfly5]

Nadia, is a nice transexual, beautiful in her own right. To use a term I heard once, she is a "bitchoid". I love Nadia. :love:

Oh and I love oranges and lemons. mmmmm.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by Sticks
I am leaving the scientific and ethical side of the debate on this, while this thread remains unlocked (A status I suspect will change if the way certain posters are going on here)

My question is one of law.

In times past, if someone had a gender realignment, in the eyes of British law they had to be considered their original gender. This was even tested in the international court of human rights many years ago by a transexual claiming that British law breached human rights, they lost.

I heard somewhere that the law has changed.

Is this the case and if so when did it change?

I might have an answer on this one for you, Sticks, but I'll have to confirm everything when I am back in work on Monday.

Anyway, at the moment "post-surgical transsexuals" can have their new gender/identities recognized for things like passports, driver's licenses, and NHS I.D., but they can't obtain new birth certificates. The ECHR case involved this issue, and was lost. The UK Government argued that the birth certificate is a record of what happened at birth, and cannot be altered at a later date. I think the issue was argued under article 8, (right to private and family life) possibly in connection with Article 14 (freedom from discrimination) But it was lost and the law stands.

However, there is some movement within the Government now, with draft bills concerning Gender Recognition Certficates (will be the equivalent of a birth cert), and full legal recognition of transsexual and same sex marriages. There is a very brief mention of the draft bill in the extract from Hansard below:

Hansard (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo031120/text/31120w04.htm#column_1158)

We have an expert on the new law reforms in work, and I can check with her on Monday if you're desperate to know more!!

[LEE]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
Okay, quick test - you're a guy, right Lee? Something else you're wrong about.

[rachb]

I remember watching something with a couple where the husband was going to become a woman.The wife was fine about him having the operation and him having a new passport and all sorts of things like that but it meant that they could no longer remain married.I have no idea why this is but it seems so silly when the couple are happy with each other.
As for Nadia I don't really care what she is classed as I think she is a nice person and thats all that matters.I hope that she finds the man of her dreams and lives happily ever after:love:

[flyfly5]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
I find it saddning that people are bending over backward so hard to be 'politically correct' that they can't see facts.

Nadia is male. He was born male, and will never be female.

So what if he chooses to look like a woman? He's nothing more than a high-tech drag queen.

As for "nadias female because she has chosen to be female, its a free country, only small minded people dont accept this".
Well, that's a good point. Maybe we should free all the pedofiles and rapists, after all, they made the choice, and it's a free world.

Unbelievable.

Yo Deus, which part of this don't you understand:

Nadia didnt choose to be a transexual.

Get it into your clinically accepted head please. By the way it's 2004, just in case your watch is slow too.

If you try and act like a god, I will tell you right now, I won't treat you like one. However, if you decide to opt for gender re-assignment, I will treat you accordingly, and respect you appropriately.

[p2pnut]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
A psychiatrist that doesn't understand basic genetics?
Rrrright - and I'm Jon Tickle.

Bet you love the fact that school's broken up, huh?

I referred to my work in 'the psychiatric field' ....... I trained as an RMN and went on to manage a number of community based projects. However, I am quite happy with my knowledge of genetics - gained through study and experience.

I also have a degree in Politics and Government - but I don't need that to tell me that your somewhat untutored and ignorant views reek of fascism.

[Deus Ex Machina]

You all seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I don't like transsexuals.
False - I just don't like Nadia.

p2p - you are "quite happy with [your] knowledge of genetics", and yet you think a male can become a female by the addition of breasts and the removal of the penis?

This has nothing to do with 'fascism' (of course, by applying a label to me you are being fascist yourself), it is to do with science.

flyfly - What has Nadia choosing to be a transsexual got to do with anything?

Finally: Lee - oh well, never mind. I just assumed you were male because you were a moderator (no offense, it's just more likely because of the male-dominated Internet).

[p2pnut]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
You all seem to be jumping to the conclusion that I don't like transsexuals.
False - I just don't like Nadia.

p2p - you are "quite happy with [your] knowledge of genetics", and yet you think a male can become a female by the addition of breasts and the removal of the penis?

This has nothing to do with 'fascism' (of course, by applying a label to me you are being fascist yourself), it is to do with science.

flyfly - What has Nadia choosing to be a transsexual got to do with anything?

Finally: Lee - oh well, never mind. I just assumed you were male because you were a moderator (no offense, it's just more likely because of the male-dominated Internet).

'Liking' , or 'not liking' Nadia cannot be a reason for the use of spurious arguments based upon unsound science.

I refer you to my original response to your 'pseudo-science' in which I discussed the fact that x/y chromosones are NOT fixed entities (as you suggested). They are able to transform according to a number of factors - temperature, pollutants, hormone levels etc. By this (somewhat deeper) understanding of genetics it is a given fact that, via the various surgical and chemical processes undergone by a (self-opting) transexual, the levels of oestrogen rise (significantly) and create the conditions which promote female characteristics.

I realise that your understanding of this somewhat complex (and challenging) subject is possibly based upon 'common sense' science (frequently promoted by the red-top tabloids).

However, there is nothing more liberating than knowledge. Therefore I have added a few quotes from scientific articles which seek to explore the subject in a more balanced way.


Several factors can be taken into account in determining a person's biological sex. They include chromosomal sex (X and Y, for example); hormonal sex (oestrogen and testosterone); gonadal sex (ovaries and testes); genital sex (vagina and penis, for example); reproductive sex (sperm-carrying and inseminating; gestating and lactating); and other associated internal organs (like the uterus or the prostate).

These factors are not always consistent with each other. In fact science admits everyone falls somewhere along a continuum. But few people would know if they were 100-per-cent male or 100-per-cent female, chromosomally or hormonally, as there are not many cases in everyday practice in which this would be tested.

http://www.ai-lgbt.org/transgender.htm

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Elevating the sex chromosomes above all other factors may be the 21st century parallel of the mistake made by the Victorians who located "true" sex in the gonads. Though high school biology teaches that men have XY and women XX chromosomes, in fact there are quite a few other combinations (XO, XXY, XO/XY, XYY, XX male, XY female), and there are many individuals who do not follow these patterns.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Intersex





I sincerely hope that the above will prove to be enlightening (for all who are confused about this issue). Without wishing to sound overly dogmatic or superior, I trust that these scientific articles can put an end to this needless and rather tasteless thread.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My reference to 'fascism' may have been a little heavyhanded. However, the last polity to institutionally employ pseudo-science to victimise transexuals (amongst many other other groups) was Nazi Germany. I am sure you will agree that we would not want to tread that path again.

[helenrobin]

Nadia is female!

Ok think of this, I have said it loads of times! All you men out there totally attracted to women, can't get enough of them, whether you're a boob man, personality man or whatever man, think about, when you were born you were born female but had all the same feelings as you do a man. Today's society would make you feel abnormal having feelings towards women when you were a woman, so the other option is to have an op to make you a man, that way you keep your true feelings and you have the body of man. Same thing as what Nadia has gone through, just try and understand the concept in it, she has inner feelings of a woman (so she is a true woman within), unfortunately she was born in a man's body, but now, she has had the op, she has the full working body and inner feelings of a woman, so therefore Nadia is a woman...simple!

Cut the girl some slack and see it from that point of view, look at yourselves and imagine what your feelings are like to the opposite sex, and then think well what if I had been unfortunately born as the same sex as the peeps I am attracted to.

What I want to know is how all the opinionated peeps out there would treat someone with both female/male parts, it's not their fault, it's the unfortunate design, what would you say to that are they male or female, would you condem them for having both parts, and if they had one or the other removed would you have an opinion on saying they were the opposite to what op they had.

Come on people this is the year 2004, society today has more of an understanding to people like that, they are not aliens, they are human, they have feelings, and when people say hurtful things it hurts them just like you or me. remember all this is classed as a form of bullying towards the person.

Nadia wants to be a female, she acts like a female, she looks like a female and most of all she has female in her inner self, therefore she is female.

Sorry to put a dampner on this topic but I feel strongly about peoples reactions to Nadia just because she was born a male.

:nono:

[p2pnut]

Quite agree helenrobin :thumbs:

[helenrobin]

thanx jacuzzi!

[ickle04]

Blah blah blah. Whats the problem? As far as i,m concerned Nadia is a person who chose to be a female. She's all women, chill out & accept her.

[LEE]

I agree as well Helen.

I'm not a fan of Nadia - I can't stand her - but that hasn't made me post the sort of prejudiced drivel I've seen on this thread. I might consider her to be awful, but it's nothing to do with the fact that she is a transexual, it's her personality I don't like.

I may not like her, but I 100% defend her right to call herself a woman. :thumbs:

[p2pnut]

Originally posted by LEE
I may not like her, but I 100% defend her right to call herself a woman. :thumbs:

LOL - If I remember correctly that was the summation of the discussion between John Cleese and Eric Idle in Monty Python's Life of Brian (during the scene in the arena).

Joking aside - it is a healthy and tolerant attitude.

:xyxwave:

[Deus Ex Machina]

p2p - oddly enough I was reading that site yesterday, and although it has lots of interesting information, it doesn't really provide a definate answer on the situation either way.
Going by what you quoted, it would seem that Nadia had no need for surgery, she could simply choose to be woman and *bing* there it would be.
That, obviously, couldn't happen.

Finally:
Originally posted by p2pnut
...the last polity to institutionally employ pseudo-science to victimise transexuals... was Nazi Germany. I am sure you will agree that we would not want to tread that path again.

Hitler also banned hunting with hounds - quick! To the countryside march :)

Out of interest, I work with a MF transsexual called Drew.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
Out of interest, I work with a MF transsexual called Drew.

That's not entirely true, at the moment he's just a cross-dresser, he is going through the 18 months of 'being a woman' before he is allowed the treatment.

[p2pnut]

Deus, I'm sure you would never let a fact ruin a good argument.

as Nadia would say .......... "whatever"

[Deus Ex Machina]

What fact?

[flyfly5]

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
Maybe we should free all the pedofiles and rapists, after all, they made the choice, and it's a free world.

Originally posted by Deus Ex Machina
flyfly - What has Nadia choosing to be a transsexual got to do with anything?

Nadia didn't choose to be a transexual.

You might catch up with the rest of us...one day...

[Deus Ex Machina]

I can assure you she did.

And while I'm catching up you might like to learn to spell 'transsexual'.

[She Devil]

Deux - Why is it that when you have been beat in a debate you result in commenting about peoples spelling mistakes?

[BB6 housemate]

lets put this to rest nadia was born a man therefore she's born a man.

if a dog is born it cant change to be a cat can it ?