'Don't jail knife teens'

[andyman]

KNIFE-carrying thugs under 18 would avoid jail under plans unveiled last night.
The Sentencing Guidelines Council recommended only referral orders. The move would fly in the face of Gordon Brown's claim that anyone caught with a blade would face automatic jail.
The SGC panel said locking up young offenders should be a "mesasure of last resort". In the uk this year, 34 teenagers have died from stab wounds. The PM promised a zero-tolerance policy on knife crime in an exclusive Sun interview in the spring.

The Sun, friday, December 19, 2008. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2054424.ece

[pinkmichk]

i caught part of this story on the news yesterday its a joke they should be doing all they can to stop it not basically just giving them a wagging finger telling off and sending them on their way so many of the recent stabbings have been carried out by the exact age group this will be targetting

[Locke.]

I think if they are caught with a knife and there is proof that they were planning to harm someone for no reason then they should be put in jail, but if they're just carrying a knife for protection then I think that is ok.

[Tom4784]

I agree with Gordon, anyone caught with a knife should face time, protection is a poor excuse.

[andyman]

But if that person has a knife they there is a chance they could use it. Many carry them due to gangs in the area, makes them feel safe... Its tricky because should the law give the same sentence to those that carry and those that use?

[Z]

Originally posted by andyman
But if that person has a knife they there is a chance they could use it. Many carry them due to gangs in the area, makes them feel safe... Its tricky because should the law give the same sentence to those that carry and those that use?

Absolutely not - most people can figure out if somebody is planning on using a knife, just based on a character judgment, but this is no use in a court of law. I think if it can be proven that somebody is carrying a knife with an intent to harm somebody with it, then they should be jailed; whereas if somebody is carrying a knife for protection, or because they bought one from their local supermarket (I'm pushing the boat out for ideas here) then it sounds ludicrous to send them to jail for simply having one on them.

[30stone]

Hate anyone that carrys a knife its ****ing disgusting...

id like to see the zero tolerance approach.

Metal poles and Crow bars are ok though.

[Billy]

They need guidance not jail.
Jailing wont stop them doing it agian

[NettoSuperstar!]

I agree with Billy and it would be daft to lock up everyone carrying a knife. When your young and you live in an area where your scared you could get attacked, then you know...I used to carry a knife when I was young and dumb cos when I was walking home from babysittin once this bloke slowed down in his car and was telling me to get in and he'd take me home. (obviously I ran like ****) did I need locking up? lol

[Fom]

Its a good idea, but soon as the Teens find this out thats where the troubles start. This would be a great idea if it hadn't been but into a news paper story. Is it that hard for the papers not to say something? Us public don't need to know everything... not if its gonna help us!

[BBkid]

What I'm going to say may sound racist but I don't mean it to be. I think that most people who have been killed/caught with knifes are black people. I am NOT saying that only black people should be jailed for this because it is unacceptable for anyone to be in possession of a knife. It is the gangs that are (mostly) black people and these gangs are found with knifes on a regular basis.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by BBkid
What I'm going to say may sound racist but I don't mean it to be. I think that most people who have been killed/caught with knifes are black people. I am NOT saying that only black people should be jailed for this because it is unacceptable for anyone to be in possession of a knife. It is the gangs that are (mostly) black people and these gangs are found with knifes on a regular basis.

:shocked: there are plenty of white kids doing this aswell! and dont you think it might be a reflection of the inequalities that still exist in this country and the lack of opportunites, aspirations, role models and chance for social mobility for people in the most deprived areas?

[letmein]

Why is it illegal for anyone in the UK to defend themselves?

What are women supposed to do if they're attacked by a rapist? Just lie there and take it?

The UK is a joke now. You can't do anything with something being deemed illegal.

[bananarama]

Anyone caught carrying a knife be it for so called self defence or not should be jailed for a minimum of 15 years fully served and also it would be a good idea to jail the "sentencing council" for a life term.....

Mamby pamby do gooders have over the decades caused the ruination of British society....

[Fom]

Originally posted by BBkid
What I'm going to say may sound racist but I don't mean it to be. I think that most people who have been killed/caught with knifes are black people. I am NOT saying that only black people should be jailed for this because it is unacceptable for anyone to be in possession of a knife. It is the gangs that are (mostly) black people and these gangs are found with knifes on a regular basis.

I disagree, you are just responding to what the media tell you. But then again, every single stabbing I see in the papers these days is a 15-19, white, male chav. I would feel much more safer talking to a 15-19 black person than a 15-19 white chav.

And why the hell are people carrying knives about with them on the street for 'Self defense' I find that really weird, I would never think about that!

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by bananarama
Anyone caught carrying a knife be it for so called self defence or not should be jailed for a minimum of 15 years fully served and also it would be a good idea to jail the "sentencing council" for a life term.....

Mamby pamby do gooders have over the decades caused the ruination of British society....

oh so I deserved 15 years in prison for carrying a knife because i was scared of getting raped! Oh yeh bang to rights I should be just getting out of prison now lmao! wot a load of twaddle! Its namby pamby do gooders that are trying to sort out the **** the narrow minded "hang em" brigade have done for the country!

[bigknowse]

Knife them back. In the gonads.

[bananarama]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Originally posted by bananarama
Anyone caught carrying a knife be it for so called self defence or not should be jailed for a minimum of 15 years fully served and also it would be a good idea to jail the "sentencing council" for a life term.....

Mamby pamby do gooders have over the decades caused the ruination of British society....

oh so I deserved 15 years in prison for carrying a knife because i was scared of getting raped! Oh yeh bang to rights I should be just getting out of prison now lmao! wot a load of twaddle! Its namby pamby do gooders that are trying to sort out the **** the narrow minded "hang em" brigade have done for the country!


Simple answer to that is YES. Carrying a deadly weapon to defend also indicates you want to be as lawless as a rapist. Which makes you a potential criminal. If we don't have law we don't have civilisation.....Hence the mess we are now in socially.

As an alternative to prison If i had my way knife carriers would be given two free gifts from the government. The first being a parachute lesson and the second gift a holiday.

A parachute jump over afganistan and a holiday with the Taliban....

[andyman]

Originally posted by Fom
Originally posted by BBkid
What I'm going to say may sound racist but I don't mean it to be. I think that most people who have been killed/caught with knifes are black people. I am NOT saying that only black people should be jailed for this because it is unacceptable for anyone to be in possession of a knife. It is the gangs that are (mostly) black people and these gangs are found with knifes on a regular basis.

I disagree, you are just responding to what the media tell you. But then again, every single stabbing I see in the papers these days is a 15-19, white, male chav. I would feel much more safer talking to a 15-19 black person than a 15-19 white chav.

And why the hell are people carrying knives about with them on the street for 'Self defense' I find that really weird, I would never think about that! Yey attack the white person, its ok these days and very PC
:rolleyes:

[letmein]

Originally posted by bananarama
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Originally posted by bananarama
Anyone caught carrying a knife be it for so called self defence or not should be jailed for a minimum of 15 years fully served and also it would be a good idea to jail the "sentencing council" for a life term.....

Mamby pamby do gooders have over the decades caused the ruination of British society....

oh so I deserved 15 years in prison for carrying a knife because i was scared of getting raped! Oh yeh bang to rights I should be just getting out of prison now lmao! wot a load of twaddle! Its namby pamby do gooders that are trying to sort out the **** the narrow minded "hang em" brigade have done for the country!


Simple answer to that is YES. Carrying a deadly weapon to defend also indicates you want to be as lawless as a rapist. Which makes you a potential criminal. If we don't have law we don't have civilisation.....Hence the mess we are now in socially.


Britain is so brainwashed, it's not even funny.

Yes, let's all get raped and killed! Don't dare defend yourselves. Citizens cannot be trusted, so government needs complete control over everyone's lives. Let's just beg the killers not to harm us. This is the reason why Britain is the shithole that it is. Everyone needs to be babyfied, and have mommy and daddy government controlling every aspect of their lives. Hey, is that a tweezers in your hand, that's dangerous...

Britain has to grow up and get a grip.

[andyman]

Nasty people need a 2nd chance... And a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th etc etc..
We have to use human rights to protect vile thugs, awww bless them, its not their fault they are evil and a menace to good honest kind people...
Victims of crime.. Fk em!
Vile scum that commit evil crime.. Must protect at all costs so we dont breach their human rights.

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
Originally posted by Fom
Originally posted by BBkid
What I'm going to say may sound racist but I don't mean it to be. I think that most people who have been killed/caught with knifes are black people. I am NOT saying that only black people should be jailed for this because it is unacceptable for anyone to be in possession of a knife. It is the gangs that are (mostly) black people and these gangs are found with knifes on a regular basis.

I disagree, you are just responding to what the media tell you. But then again, every single stabbing I see in the papers these days is a 15-19, white, male chav. I would feel much more safer talking to a 15-19 black person than a 15-19 white chav.

And why the hell are people carrying knives about with them on the street for 'Self defense' I find that really weird, I would never think about that! Yey attack the white person, its ok these days and very PC
:rolleyes:
lol ... but not in the "good old days" huh andy? hehe ... try building a time machine dude. ... we'll all have a whip round :joker:

[andyman]

Point being? Oh dam i forgot, your "PC" lol so sorry i should have known any real logic and commen sence will be out the window...

Just so you know, i'm drinking strawberry flavoured milk, tis very yum yum.

[ange7]

Originally posted by andyman
Point being? Oh dam i forgot, your "PC" lol so sorry i should have known any real logic and commen sence will be out the window...

Just so you know, i'm drinking strawberry flavoured milk, tis very yum yum.
mmmm oh!! does that help with your logic allergy?

[ange7]

you ought to go for mod andy ... pleeeeeeeeeeeeease!

[andyman]

Yes the strawberry flavoured milk is nice... Well i should say it was nice due to the fact that its in ma belly.

Just being random :spin2:

[andyman]

You should be the new temp mod, i know you would be fair... Then again its if you have the time to do so.
Myself i can't become a mod, my spelling is weak and i already have a warning, i doubt any mod has a warning against their name.
I am sure admin will pick a good member to fill the post.

[ange7]

is that an avatar of you trying to get to sleep .... or is it you after taking your daily "strawberry" prescription?
Seriously though about the time machine. We can have a whip round and build you one ... the " good old days" are waiting.
Look!!! Potsie from the 80's says hi
http://www.mallardsbaseball.com/home/images/news/Potsie.jpg

Think of it andy ...the 80's!... none of that political correctness you hate so much .. a truly golden "happy days" age.

One thing that happy days and your idea of the "good old days" has in common is that they are both fantasies.

[andyman]

Woohoo! :cheer2:

[andyman]

Yes ange lets get rid of "PC" .... Common sence anyone or will that offend people?
Big brother... Oh no that might offend people that are big and that are brothers, maybe best family would be better, ahhhh.

My pride intact knowing that people will not be offended of somthing that they wont even find offensive, "PC" must stamp out all common sence at all costs and make the world a better place... Should i say world or earth, dont want to offend.

[Xander]

Originally posted by letmein
Why is it illegal for anyone in the UK to defend themselves?

What are women supposed to do if they're attacked by a rapist? Just lie there and take it?

The UK is a joke now. You can't do anything with something being deemed illegal.


I agree about the rape comment, I mean if somebody did try to protect themselves and actually knock them out, the rapist would probably press charges!
Also going slightly off topic but I think its ridculous how if a burgular breaks into your home you can't protect yourself as your the one that would be arrested for attacking them...
But seriously why do people need a knife as protection, people are only carrying knifes to "protect" themselves with other people carrying knifes, if nobody carried them in the first place other people wouldn't be as well.

[letmein]

I like how people equate defending one's self as the same action as the criminal attacking. Unbelievable, but not really.

[ange7]

Originally posted by letmein
I like how people equate defending one's self as the same action as the criminal attacking. Unbelievable, but not really.
yeah but if we did it your way it would turn into the wild west with everyone carrying knives. If everyone carries knives to defend themselves then criminals will start carrying guns ... using your previous logic we would then all be within out rights to start carrying guns to protect ourselves. Nah better we make the streets safe by increasing police presents and increasing sense a of community in out neighbourhoods rather than than increasing the number of weapons and then justifying it by saying it's for protection.

[NettoSuperstar!]

But 15 years in prison?? cmon join the real world!

[andyman]

Originally posted by ange7
Originally posted by letmein
I like how people equate defending one's self as the same action as the criminal attacking. Unbelievable, but not really.
yeah but if we did it your way it would turn into the wild west with everyone carrying knives. If everyone carries knives to defend themselves then criminals will start carrying guns ... using your previous logic we would then all be within out rights to start carrying guns to protect ourselves. Nah better we make the streets safe by increasing police presents and increasing sense a of community in out neighbourhoods rather than than increasing the number of weapons and then justifying it by saying it's for protection.
Yes more police on the streets is the start

:thumbs:

[letmein]

Originally posted by ange7
Originally posted by letmein
I like how people equate defending one's self as the same action as the criminal attacking. Unbelievable, but not really.
yeah but if we did it your way it would turn into the wild west with everyone carrying knives. If everyone carries knives to defend themselves then criminals will start carrying guns ... using your previous logic we would then all be within out rights to start carrying guns to protect ourselves. Nah better we make the streets safe by increasing police presents and increasing sense a of community in out neighbourhoods rather than than increasing the number of weapons and then justifying it by saying it's for protection.

I don't believe they were using knives in the Wild West. :pat:

Sorry, but no number of police are going to save people from being attacked. People should have the right to defend themselves against street thugs. Enough is enough. You're going to see an increase in violence with the economic collapse, and wait until the Tories get in power. :laugh3: All hell is going to break loose. You better get a bat of some kind... but wait, can you get locked up for 15 years carrying a bat? How about a shovel? Women better stop wearing heels, they could kill someone!

Britain has become a totalitarian country. People who defend themselves or fight back, will get jail time. There's no justice in the country, and if you think police are going to protect you, you're seriously naive. If someone breaks into your house, can you stab them with a household knife? What jail time do you get for that? :bored:

[ange7]

Originally posted by letmein
Originally posted by ange7
Originally posted by letmein
I like how people equate defending one's self as the same action as the criminal attacking. Unbelievable, but not really.
yeah but if we did it your way it would turn into the wild west with everyone carrying knives. If everyone carries knives to defend themselves then criminals will start carrying guns ... using your previous logic we would then all be within out rights to start carrying guns to protect ourselves. Nah better we make the streets safe by increasing police presents and increasing sense a of community in out neighbourhoods rather than than increasing the number of weapons and then justifying it by saying it's for protection.

I don't believe they were using knives in the Wild West. :pat:

Sorry, but no number of police are going to save people from being attacked. People should have the right to defend themselves against street thugs. Enough is enough. You're going to see an increase in violence with the economic collapse, and wait until the Tories get in power. :laugh3: All hell is going to break loose. You better get a bat of some kind... but wait, can you get locked up for 15 years carrying a bat? How about a shovel? Women better stop wearing heels, they could kill someone!

Britain has become a totalitarian country. People who defend themselves or fight back, will get jail time. There's no justice in the country, and if you think police are going to protect you, you're seriously naive. If someone breaks into your house, can you stab them with a household knife? What jail time do you get for that? :bored:
you didn't just say they didn't have knives in the wild west did you?...lol sorry but that cheesy emoticon didn't win the argument either.
..anyway you missed the point. Wild west was analogous to lawlessness and people defending themselves as per your pretty wierd utopia of guns and knives for all.

I guess your point is if people are planning to walk through a dark and scary part of town then they'd be nuts not to take something for protection...pepper spray, a knife whatever. Fine but that isn't the final solution ( no pun intended German dude). We don't want people to have to carry knives all the time because that will just escalate the problem. Criminals will then need to carry guns if we all have knives. If they carry guns then we will need to carry guns too..... hence the wild west analogy. I didn't think it was so subtle that you'd miss it all together, but there it is repeated again just for you.

You also ignored my main point that the solution ought to be a community based one ... neighbours looking out for each other, being pro active and not standing idly by. Criminals aren't going to attack in a neighbourhood where at the first call for help 5 or 6 big guys come out with cricket bats ( I've seen this happen hehe). Unfortunately people usually live in neighbourhoods where people look out for number one and "don't want to get involved" shame. A sense of community and connectedness will help with crime as much as extra police but more police are still needed. Your solution of longer sentences has been proven over and over again not to work but what exactly that has to do with Britain being a "totalitarian country" is something I'm kind of afraid to ask.

[NettoSuperstar!]

I'd just like to add Im not for carrying knives I just think there are people out there who do stupidly because they are scared, and they dont neccesarily deserve to go to prison. Infact it would be crazy to think that is a solution for everyone. I agree with more police on beat in rough areas and community groups and so on like Ange said, and some kind of guidance for some, like Billy said.

[Tom]

There are more reasons for carrying knives than just to hurt someone. Some people use them for self defence because of everything in the media atm about attacks on the street. Should people be put in jail just for wanting to feel safe?

[ange7]

Originally posted by Tom
There are more reasons for carrying knives than just to hurt someone. Some people use them for self defence because of everything in the media atm about attacks on the street. Should people be put in jail just for wanting to feel safe?
who you arguing with ... and who said there was only one use for knives? ... so random

[Tom]

Originally posted by ange7
Originally posted by Tom
There are more reasons for carrying knives than just to hurt someone. Some people use them for self defence because of everything in the media atm about attacks on the street. Should people be put in jail just for wanting to feel safe?
who you arguing with ... and who said there was only one use for knives? ... so random

Noone, I was just giving my opinion on the situation as a whole. Is it a crime to do that and I have to just argue with thats already been said? Its not random at all :rolleyes:

[letmein]

Originally posted by ange7
Originally posted by letmein
Originally posted by ange7
Originally posted by letmein
I like how people equate defending one's self as the same action as the criminal attacking. Unbelievable, but not really.
yeah but if we did it your way it would turn into the wild west with everyone carrying knives. If everyone carries knives to defend themselves then criminals will start carrying guns ... using your previous logic we would then all be within out rights to start carrying guns to protect ourselves. Nah better we make the streets safe by increasing police presents and increasing sense a of community in out neighbourhoods rather than than increasing the number of weapons and then justifying it by saying it's for protection.

I don't believe they were using knives in the Wild West. :pat:

Sorry, but no number of police are going to save people from being attacked. People should have the right to defend themselves against street thugs. Enough is enough. You're going to see an increase in violence with the economic collapse, and wait until the Tories get in power. :laugh3: All hell is going to break loose. You better get a bat of some kind... but wait, can you get locked up for 15 years carrying a bat? How about a shovel? Women better stop wearing heels, they could kill someone!

Britain has become a totalitarian country. People who defend themselves or fight back, will get jail time. There's no justice in the country, and if you think police are going to protect you, you're seriously naive. If someone breaks into your house, can you stab them with a household knife? What jail time do you get for that? :bored:
you didn't just say they didn't have knives in the wild west did you?...lol sorry but that cheesy emoticon didn't win the argument either.
..anyway you missed the point. Wild west was analogous to lawlessness and people defending themselves as per your pretty wierd utopia of guns and knives for all.

I guess your point is if people are planning to walk through a dark and scary part of town then they'd be nuts not to take something for protection...pepper spray, a knife whatever. Fine but that isn't the final solution ( no pun intended German dude). We don't want people to have to carry knives all the time because that will just escalate the problem. Criminals will then need to carry guns if we all have knives. If they carry guns then we will need to carry guns too..... hence the wild west analogy. I didn't think it was so subtle that you'd miss it all together, but there it is repeated again just for you.

You also ignored my main point that the solution ought to be a community based one ... neighbours looking out for each other, being pro active and not standing idly by. Criminals aren't going to attack in a neighbourhood where at the first call for help 5 or 6 big guys come out with cricket bats ( I've seen this happen hehe). Unfortunately people usually live in neighbourhoods where people look out for number one and "don't want to get involved" shame. A sense of community and connectedness will help with crime as much as extra police but more police are still needed. Your solution of longer sentences has been proven over and over again not to work but what exactly that has to do with Britain being a "totalitarian country" is something I'm kind of afraid to ask.

When people use the term "Wild West", the first thing that comes to mind is pistols, not knives.

Counting on neighbors to look out for one another, is exceptionally naive. People want to be left alone. People move in and out of flats. Many don't even know there neighbors, or even have enough time to. Psychologically, people don't get involved in disputes. They stay out of it. This is basic sociology, with statistics to back it up.

Totalitarian government is basically a police state where you lean to government to handle everything. People deserve to have the freedom to defend themselves, and not have police looking into people's windows and getting all involved in everyone's lives, just in an effort to keep people safe. It's totally 1984. Police and the government can then take away everyone's liberties in an effort to "keep citizens safe." That's dangerous. Fascists regimes start this way.

I agree with having more police around, but jailing people for having protection on their being is just taking it way too far. The prisons are already filled beyond belief. Nothing good will come out of locking someone up for the smallest of crime, putting them in a cell with a million other seriously dangerous criminals.

You are using a ton of supposition. Carrying knives, does not lead to carrying guns. You need to draw the line. Everything can be deemed a weapon. It's too much power for government to have over everyone's lives. We don't need mommy and daddy government baby proofing everything for us.