Should assisted suicide be legal in the UK?

[LeonM]

(Sorry if this has already been posted)

I think it should be because, someone who is living a long life of pain and misery should be allowed to die, they may not be able to do it themselves though so someone should help them. I can see why they aren't allowing it but its that persons life, their choice.

[andyman]

I don't know but it should always be a court matter

[30stone]

They should give them a button to press to turn off the the machines they are hooked up to if asked for it or somthing...


though some people say things way to quickly so im unsure.

[AngRemembered]

Simple answer no.
There is ALWAYS something and someone to live for, and I keep reminding myself of that each and every day I wake up in excrusiating pain.

I now have a cold, which could mean a death sentance in itself, but it sure makes those aches and pains feel much worse.
However no matter how bad I feel, I'd never wish to stop being able to share a conscious moment with my family, and would sorely miss the chance to read and reply to my dear friends here.
Being in this pain is horrible but its a great deal better than being dead and no good to anyone.

[Spike]

Yes definatly!
The main reason it isn't legal at the moment because of religion but as religion starts to decrease it will become legal.

[Chri$]

Yes 100%

My Uncle was taken in to Hospital one year ago on Christmas Day and since has been lying in a Bed in Hospital and a Care Home. Now he can't Eat or Talk or Walk and My auntie is very old and she visits him everyday and it is sad because she is sorta wasting her life.

I think it should be Legal because my uncle is in pain and there is nothing anyone can do.

[Tom]

Its been done before but its always good to have new threads for a clean debate (new members, new opinions etc)

The irony is a lot of people just want the choice- it doesn't mean they'll actually go through with it. In some countries where they have sent out the right things for someone to end their own lives, they haven't gone through with it.

If suicide is legal them imo so should assisted suicide. But I think it should be heavily regulated e.g. the patient should have to confirm it to a doctor who should then get a second opinion, fill in a load of forms then carry it out in front of witnesses etc. But if this is impossible then its hard to say if the patient would want that or not which leaves for grey areas ...

If its not regulated then it could be abused but I doubt a lot of the time they would actually do it because when push comes to shove its not as easier to do things as in theory ...

[Stu]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Being in this pain is horrible but its a great deal better than being dead and no good to anyone.
You cant speak for everyone though. While I completely agree with you, to inflict your views on others is rotten. People should be allowed do what they want with their own lives and their own bodies. If they want to kill themselves, let them.

To suggest it should always be a court matter is pathetic too. Life is not an issue of legal politics.

[Sticks]

This should remain illegal and it's time they started enforcing this law, like in the case of the parents wgo took their son to Dignitas

Legitimising assisted suicide will put the elderly and disabled at risk by relatives pressurising them in to dying for financial gain.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Sticks
This should remain illegal and it's time they started enforcing this law, like in the case of the parents wgo took their son to Dignitas

Legitimising assisted suicide will put the elderly and disabled at risk by relatives pressurising them in to dying for financial gain.

What if it was regulated?

[Tom4784]

If it's what a person wants then definately. I don't agree with suicide but you can't suspend the wish of people who'd want to do this because of a hypothetical situation. That is stupid.

As long as there are strict regulations involved and checks to make sure nobody is being pressurised about it then what's wrong about it.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by Stu
Originally posted by Angiebabe
Being in this pain is horrible but its a great deal better than being dead and no good to anyone.
You cant speak for everyone though. While I completely agree with you, to inflict your views on others is rotten. People should be allowed do what they want with their own lives and their own bodies. If they want to kill themselves, let them.

To suggest it should always be a court matter is pathetic too. Life is not an issue of legal politics.

giving an oppinion always does inflict a view on someone else, thats the defintion of an oppinion, if it didnt I suppose an oppinion would count for nothing.

To say its rotten is extremely hurtful, and I thought you were better than that.
Interstingly you did'nt find anything wrong factually about the statement, that being dead is indeed no good to anyone.

Oh and if we took your views littrally we have no accountabillity at all,
"people should be allowed to do what they like with there own bodies"

So, people can get drunk and go home and abuse family members?
Kill people whilst under the influence of narcotics?
People can smoke where the hell they like too?
People can jump in front of trains, cars off buildings causing mayhem and possible death to others in this irresponsible and incredibly selfish way of life.
People will alway have the opportunity if not the right to committ suicide, I just don't think it does anyone any good trying to legalise it, that dos'nt mean to say I could'nt or would'nt sympathise with someone who would.
Legalising it by the terms Tom has set out seems ideal, but will always leave the door open someone being "murdered" using this as a cover, and just one case is one to many.

Either way the fact we should be able to do anything with our own bodies is a ridiculously absurd as it it incredibly selfish and truly rotten.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Tom
What if it was regulated?

In the one country where it is regulated there are reports on non-voluntary euthanasia

The system is still open to abuse

[Stu]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by Stu
Originally posted by Angiebabe
Being in this pain is horrible but its a great deal better than being dead and no good to anyone.
You cant speak for everyone though. While I completely agree with you, to inflict your views on others is rotten. People should be allowed do what they want with their own lives and their own bodies. If they want to kill themselves, let them.

To suggest it should always be a court matter is pathetic too. Life is not an issue of legal politics.

giving an oppinion always does inflict a view on someone else, thats the defintion of an oppinion, if it didnt I suppose an oppinion would count for nothing.

To say its rotten is extremely hurtful, and I thought you were better than that.
Interstingly you did'nt find anything wrong factually about the statement, that being dead is indeed no good to anyone.

Oh and if we took your views littrally we have no accountabillity at all,
"people should be allowed to do what they like with there own bodies"

So, people can get drunk and go home and abuse family members?
Kill people whilst under the influence of narcotics?
People can smoke where the hell they like too?
People can jump in front of trains, cars off buildings causing mayhem and possible death to others in this irresponsible and incredibly selfish way of life.
People will alway have the opportunity if not the right to committ suicide, I just don't think it does anyone any good trying to legalise it, that dos'nt mean to say I could'nt or would'nt sympathise with someone who would.
Legalising it by the terms Tom has set out seems ideal, but will always leave the door open someone being "murdered" using this as a cover, and just one case is one to many.

Either way the fact we should be able to do anything with our own bodies is a ridiculously absurd as it it incredibly selfish and truly rotten.
Okay, let me expand on the obvious into the realm of the even more obvious, seeing as your taking my statement the completely wrong way and putting as negative a spin on it as you possibly can [at this point if I were trying to patronise and discredit you as a person for your views I would say ''I thought you were better than that'' but im just not like that].

Here is what I put foward : People can do what they want with their own bodies as long as thier actions are not harming or interfereing anybody else.

I think it is up to a person to do what they want with themselves as long as their not infringing on the rights of others. And yes, I think to think any different is rotten because it is a removal of basic carnal and cognitive freedoms.

The fact that I found nothing wrong with you statement? Why, because I agree with it of course. Theirs always something in life is my opinion too. Im not naive or stupid enough to think however that everybody is in my position. So on a principal do I disagree with people killing themselves? Hell yes. But are my going to stop them? Hell no.

[Fom]

If don correctly then it should deffinatley made legal, as long as its regulated. There should be certain companies that you have to pay for the costs, and then its not illegal. When you get to a stage where you cant talk or hear, cant move, cant eat properly, cant drink properly. Life becomes very boring and it must be so sad for these people to have to live. I am for it as long as the system doesnt get abused.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Tom
What if it was regulated?

In the one country where it is regulated there are reports on non-voluntary euthanasia

The system is still open to abuse

lol which ONE country is that? the Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium or the state of Oregon in the US?
nah...sorry...you need to provide proof about that.... not calling you a liar mate but facts do get a little twisted as they're passed on... particularly when passed between anti-euthanasia advocates who feel the need to bolster they own opinions. Are you saying that in this one country where it is legal, relatives of sick and dying people have been convicted in a court of law for attempting to fabricate the wishes of the ill person to die?. .... and for their own financial gain? You need to back it up with a link or something.
An Australia state had passed euthanasia laws some years back but they were overruled by then conservative federal government. Point is that the hoops that had to be jumped through to gain permission included 3 separate doctors all agreeing that
1. the person's illness was terminal,
2. the person's quality of life was not going to improve
3. the person was fully cognisant and understood exactly what they were asking for and
4. The doc had no past connection with those involved.
Seems to me under these kind of regulations the reports of people hurrying along the deaths of their elderly or disabled relatives would be unlikely. I'm assuming the country your speaking of had similarly strict rules and procedures. If you've proof of a conviction that backs your view up then I stand corrected.

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Simple answer no.
There is ALWAYS something and someone to live for, and I keep reminding myself of that each and every day I wake up in excrusiating pain.

I now have a cold, which could mean a death sentance in itself, but it sure makes those aches and pains feel much worse.
However no matter how bad I feel, I'd never wish to stop being able to share a conscious moment with my family, and would sorely miss the chance to read and reply to my dear friends here.
Being in this pain is horrible but its a great deal better than being dead and no good to anyone.

I really do respect your desire to live, your desire to keep creating new memories for your family. I dont agree with your opinion though. It could be that I am not as brave as you, or it could be that I dont want to be as brave as you are, I just cant stand the thought of having to go through some awful illness that causes me horrific pain without having the right to end that pain. I dont think I could stand to see my loved ones suffer either, unless of course they had the same desire as you have to live.

Sticks - like Ang says where is your evidence to your statement about people forcing others to committ suicide? you cant make sweeping statements like that without backing them up factually, unless it is wrapped up as an "opinion"

[NettoSuperstar!]

You know what I just dont know! I dont judge anyone that wants to do that but making it legal, I just dont know, death is such massive thing blimey! should we be in control of it? Thats some heavy **** to decide! But then again maybe it should be about personal choice in making that decision. If we're going to decide its ok for people to make that choice then it has to be made official like!

[Tom]

Originally posted by Sticks
This should remain illegal and it's time they started enforcing this law, like in the case of the parents wgo took their son to Dignitas

Legitimising assisted suicide will put the elderly and disabled at risk by relatives pressurising them in to dying for financial gain.

But that happens anyway. If it is heavily regulated, if its clear that its for the best (ie more than 2 doctors and the patient have said) and if anyone caught abusing the system is prosecuted (which is what happens now) then I don't see the problem.

[AngRemembered]

The crimes of Harold Shipman are a good example of how things go wrong (even without legislation supporting assisted suicide) when a Doctor is allowed to play god on someones life.
Regulations always look good on paper but in practise they will only make killers like Shipman harder to detect, and boy it was tough enough to bring him to justice 236 murders are ascribed to him alone whilst a legal GP.

Thats 236 innocent people dead and 1000's more lives ruined by one individual supposedly regulated and trusted to sustain life and care for the most vunerable in our socierty.
Hell, we as a nation could'nt even vet the doc, our social services system is falling apart at the seems with baby P and Karen Mathews just the tip of a massive Iceburg of errors and down right neglect, and people want to now give these very same organisations the legal power to assist in death???? Hell what on earth are they doing now then???

I for one would'nt like to go and explain to the dead victims family's that,,
"you know what in may seem bad for you at the moment but believe me there are 4 people in Stockport who are most grateful they have the chance to be killed by there doctor we were sure we had your moms consent but the report social services made looks like it was ammended whilst it went missing on the 4:25 York to Leeds inter city express.
I am sorry, here take one of our cards there is a 24 hour helpline number on the back".

Sounds ludicrous? Not by half, untill of course they make the biggest error yet and ammend the law and allow completly incompetant a**ses like Haringay and Sheffield social care to assist in ending someones life, only this time no resignations or sackings, they'll be doing it legally.

Then the above won't sound like some hyperthetical joke, it will be front page FACT, and this time we'll ALL be to blame.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
The crimes of Harold Shipman are a good example of how things go wrong (even without legislation supporting assisted suicide) when a Doctor is allowed to play god on someones life.
Regulations always look good on paper but in practise they will only make killers like Shipman harder to detect, and boy it was tough enough to bring him to justice 236 murders are ascribed to him alone whilst a legal GP.

Thats 236 innocent people dead and 1000's more lives ruined by one individual supposedly regulated and trusted to sustain life and care for the most vunerable in our socierty.
Hell, we as a nation could'nt even vet the doc, our social services system is falling apart at the seems with baby P and Karen Mathews just the tip of a massive Iceburg of errors and down right neglect, and people want to now give these very same organisations the legal power to assist in death???? Hell what on earth are they doing now then???

I for one would'nt like to go and explain to the dead victims family's that,,
"you know what in may seem bad for you at the moment but believe me there are 4 people in Stockport who are most grateful they have the chance to be killed by there doctor we were sure we had your moms consent but the report social services made looks like it was ammended whilst it went missing on the 4:25 York to Leeds inter city express.
I am sorry, here take one of our cards there is a 24 hour helpline number on the back".

Sounds ludicrous? Not by half, untill of course they make the biggest error yet and ammend the law and allow completly incompetant a**ses like Haringay and Sheffield social care to assist in ending someones life, only this time no resignations or sackings, they'll be doing it legally.

Then the above won't sound like some hyperthetical joke, it will be front page FACT, and this time we'll ALL be to blame.
Harold Shipman has nothing to do with assisted suicide debate. What are you on about again? He wasn't "allowed" to play god ...UK had NO euthanasia laws plus he went to prison..so why would you classify the act of a lunatic as somehow state sponsored. Under a regulated euthanasia law examples of rogue doctors would be no more possible than they are now.With or without euthanasia laws crack pot doctors who lose their mind can still do what he did except in euthanasia cases more than one doctors signature is needed so your rant is way off. Why did you even bring that up?.. baby P !?! Karen Mathews !?! the collapse of the social service system.... ?? it's all linked is it Theses random dot's don't all join up to make your case...FFS are you saying we're all as as evil as shipman and the rest because we support the right of those who are in unbearable pain with zero hope of recovery to end their lives with dignity?

Who are you to decide for them?

These people are a) conscious and logical humans, b) in pain and suffering c) have no hope of recovery d) palliative care only prolongs the pain e) they want to go on their own terms with dignity instead of it being long and drawn out while they are totally in paralysis and therefore incapable of action.Imagine it!!! .But YOU want to decide for them....?. You even compare yourself to them!!! omg ....are you confined to a bed in agony every second wishing that you were dead?.... NO your sitting behind a pc in slippers typing on the tibb forum using the fact you have cancer to try to get the moral high ground in EVERY argument you have... how dare you then say you know what they are going through.

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
The crimes of Harold Shipman are a good example of how things go wrong (even without legislation supporting assisted suicide) when a Doctor is allowed to play god on someones life.
Regulations always look good on paper but in practise they will only make killers like Shipman harder to detect, and boy it was tough enough to bring him to justice 236 murders are ascribed to him alone whilst a legal GP.

Thats 236 innocent people dead and 1000's more lives ruined by one individual supposedly regulated and trusted to sustain life and care for the most vunerable in our socierty.
Hell, we as a nation could'nt even vet the doc, our social services system is falling apart at the seems with baby P and Karen Mathews just the tip of a massive Iceburg of errors and down right neglect, and people want to now give these very same organisations the legal power to assist in death???? Hell what on earth are they doing now then???

I for one would'nt like to go and explain to the dead victims family's that,,
"you know what in may seem bad for you at the moment but believe me there are 4 people in Stockport who are most grateful they have the chance to be killed by there doctor we were sure we had your moms consent but the report social services made looks like it was ammended whilst it went missing on the 4:25 York to Leeds inter city express.
I am sorry, here take one of our cards there is a 24 hour helpline number on the back".

Sounds ludicrous? Not by half, untill of course they make the biggest error yet and ammend the law and allow completly incompetant a**ses like Haringay and Sheffield social care to assist in ending someones life, only this time no resignations or sackings, they'll be doing it legally.

Then the above won't sound like some hyperthetical joke, it will be front page FACT, and this time we'll ALL be to blame.

But using Harold Shipman as an example isnt really a true example of assisted suicide, its an example of a very clever manipulative mass murderer which is something totally different to the issues we are discussing here.

Assisted suicide is about choice and I would not want to be involved in refusing anyone their right to decide what happens to themselves. It is in my opinion a basic human right that we in the UK are denied. We treat our pets in a more humane way than we do our people.

Many people just feel their life has no value like the rugby player Daniel James who had to leave his own home country to end his life with his loved ones around him. His parents had to make one of the hardest decisions of their lives, and now they face prosecution in this country for allowing their son to make a choice. He had failed in several suicide attempts and was finally allowed to die with dignity, how can that be a crime?

[AngRemembered]

Harold Shipman is an example of a legal and sound minded Doctor (up until his trial, did we know differently beforehand?) who WOULD be called to make or help to qualify decisions on assisted suicide.
He is therefore a very good example of how legalising suicide can and will go wrong.
I use social services as they would also be involved in this dilema should we all lose our marbles and make this law, (but to be honest I don't think we in the UK will ever get that barmy) unless of course a seperate but equally incompetant and bungling buracrtic organisation is going to be "made up" specialising in this area. All we have now are Doctors(some like Shipman who was stuck off AFTER his trial not before) and Social workers (who are the a bit like Shipman but never get the same sort of trial or sentance).
Either way mistakes WILL be made..thats a fact of life.
Missuse will also be a sad fact of potential change, so why change? People will do and I dare say "assisted" taking there own life, and in most cases looked at sympathetically by all, including the people here arguing for a no change view.
However, preventing one mistake and 1 one miss use to me eqautes to 2 innocent people staying alive.
What is wrong with that?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Yeh If people feel so strongly that theyll go abroad to do it, well it makes the argument in favour of legalizing it here stronger.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Harold Shipman is an example of a legal and sound minded Doctor (up until his arrest did we know differently) Who would be called to make or help to qualify decisions on assisted suicide, he is therefore a very good example of how legalising suicidecan and will go wrong.
I use social services as they would also be involved in this dilema should we all lose our marbles and make this law, (but to be honest I don't think we in the UK will ever get that barmy) unless of course a seperate but equally incompetant and bungling buracrtic organisation is going to be "made up" specialising in this area. All we have now are Doctors and Social workers.
Either way mistakes WILL be made..thats fact
Miss use will be likely and definately possible, so why change what we have now? Preventing one mistake and 1 one miss use to me eqautes to 2 innocent people staying alive.
What is wrong with that?

Im fed up of people saying the NHS and Social Services are incompetant, corrupt, bungling etc! Not looking at the bloody good stuff they do or really thinks about the reasons why mistakes get made from time to time!

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by ange7
omg ....are you confined to a bed in agony every second wishing that you were dead?.... NO your sitting behind a pc in slippers typing on the tibb forum using the fact you have cancer to try to get the moral high ground in EVERY argument you have... how dare you then say you know what they are going through.

At the moment I AM confined to a bed in agony (I have a cold), not quite every second but I'm getting there.
I actually DO know what people contemplating this are going through, I am one, therefore I see these very people and speak with them or do you think cancer treatment starts and stops at wearing slippers?

For what its worth about 70% would prefer the system we have now, for the very reasons I've said, fear of miss use or mistakes by "bent" Doctors or incompetant social services.
There are some who disagree of course, and I'll say they are more often than not people who have had little or no support to live as long and as happy as possible.

Many times I've felt like wanting to die, the latest being when I read you horrid reply (that was real nasty btw) but I've always been surrounded by good care and proper encouragement to live.
So I will continue to dare you on a subject far more closer to me than I'd ever wish on you.
No matter how nasty you are.

[WATERS]

Yeah, it should.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Harold Shipman is an example of a legal and sound minded Doctor (up until his arrest did we know differently) Who would be called to make or help to qualify decisions on assisted suicide, he is therefore a very good example of how legalising suicidecan and will go wrong.
I use social services as they would also be involved in this dilema should we all lose our marbles and make this law, (but to be honest I don't think we in the UK will ever get that barmy) unless of course a seperate but equally incompetant and bungling buracrtic organisation is going to be "made up" specialising in this area. All we have now are Doctors and Social workers.
Either way mistakes WILL be made..thats fact
Miss use will be likely and definately possible, so why change what we have now? Preventing one mistake and 1 one miss use to me eqautes to 2 innocent people staying alive.
What is wrong with that?
Why just ignore every point we make about dignity and choice... and then just re hash your old point?

"sound minded Doctor (up until his arrest did we know differently) "
whether we knew differently or not makes zero difference to your argument...he was a nutter. He is NOT a god example of doc qualified to decide on assisted suicide because they need more than one doc ( as I said) ....plus don't they also need a psychologist to makes sure the ill person isn't being forced, is of sound mind.
This has ZERO to do with Shipman example and I want you to say as much. "bungling bureaucratic organisation" what? go to the US and see what a cr#p health service is ... you just hang sh*t on everything. Governments, doctors, social workers. ... and then hope somewhere in all that mud slinging you've made an argument.

"Preventing one mistake and 1 one miss use to me equates to 2 innocent people staying alive." Here's what's wrong..."
YOU don't get to choose how people who want to end there lives go out. GET IT? Why would you think you can? The "mistakes" you talk of?... what mistakes " person wants to end there lives... doc looks them over 3 times over a month, gets and psychologist to check the person. Then a physicain checks them out. What mistake and misuse are you talking about given the amount oh huge regulation and double and triple checking there will be..spell it out . A shipman type doc has more chance of getting away with what he did today in anormal GP practice than he would today under these stringent euthanasia laws. That's 3 times I've said that ...

[ange7]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by ange7
omg ....are you confined to a bed in agony every second wishing that you were dead?.... NO your sitting behind a pc in slippers typing on the tibb forum using the fact you have cancer to try to get the moral high ground in EVERY argument you have... how dare you then say you know what they are going through.

At the moment I AM confined to a bed in agony (I have a cold), not quite every second but I'm getting there.
I actually DO know what people contemplating this are going through, I am one, therefore I see these very people and speak with them or do you think cancer treatment starts and stops at wearing slippers?

For what its worth about 70% would prefer the system we have now, for the very reasons I've said, fear of miss use or mistakes by "bent" Doctors or incompetant social services.
There are some who disagree of course, and I'll say they are more often than not people who have had little or no support to live as long and as happy as possible.

Many times I've felt like wanting to die, the latest being when I read you horrid reply (that was real nasty btw) but I've always been surrounded by good care and proper encouragement to live.
So I will continue to dare you on a subject far more closer to me than I'd ever wish on you.
No matter how nasty you are.
there you go again... I'm "horrid" "I'm nasty" YOU want people to die in agony... in pain with no dignaty. There last gasp being horrible and bitter instead of going out with dignaty in the arms of those who love and cherrish them. You want to make the choices for dying people....but I'm "horrid". My point is you KEEP using your cancer in arguments eg "Many times I've felt like wanting to die, the latest being when I read you horrid reply". So you'd prefer I treated you differently since you have cancer? I've had 2 people close to me die of terminal illnesses and neither wanted special treatment....they HATED sympathy but you keep playing that card.... if someone like YOU told them THEY ought to go out of these world all helpless and in horrible pain instead of with grace and dignaty then how can you call me horrid? For the record I'm sure you'll be pleased to know they spent their last weeks in hospice care and in pain.
Hope you weren't expecting an apology.

[Sunny_01]

Ok so you use Shipman, he is an example of 1 person who abused his position but look at the thousands of doctors out there every day working hard on our behalf to get it right. I think to trawl out Shipman for this argument belittles the positions of so many good people working in the health care and social care sectors.

Like I previously said I am aware of your own personal struggles but that doesnt give you the only valid opinion on the matter. I am strongly in favour of personal choice with this, I dont think anyone should be denied the right to choose. You have stated your position Angie and I respect that, you if given the choice would choose to stay alive, but someone else in your position could well choose to end their suffering.

As for the dig at Ange about her making you want to die, well that was a pretty low blow, that was uncalled for and was purely for a reaction :bored: I appreciate that you did not like what was said to you, but I think that was very low.

[ange7]

wow my head is spinning.. ... plus it's 3.20 am here in Sydney so I'm off to bed.

Sorry if this got heated... I was as much out of line as angie. Angie you get under my skin not because I hate you but because I like you and your posts ...but I get taken aback by stuff you say now and then.
ps Sunny...I'm not a she... I'm 100% aussie beefcake! ... :tongue:
night all and sorry again

[letmein]

Assisted suicide for the hms in the Big Brother house? :hello::bouncy:

[Stu]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Many times I've felt like wanting to die, the latest being when I read you horrid reply.
A bit heavy, dont you think? I appreciate what your going through but your either on a vendetta to make somebody look in a worse light or you really take this place to seriously. One post your talking about your will to live and the next your talking about wanting to die because of a post you read on an internet forum?

[Sticks]

The country was Holland

And if you want you can look at this study (http://www.hospicecare.com/Ethics/pollard2.htm) which documents statistics on Non-Voluntary Euthanasia

Not quite the hand-waving you thought I was doing

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by ange7
wow my head is spinning.. ... plus it's 3.20 am here in Sydney so I'm off to bed.

Sorry if this got heated... I was as much out of line as angie. Angie you get under my skin not because I hate you but because I like you and your posts ...but I get taken aback by stuff you say now and then.
ps Sunny...I'm not a she... I'm 100% aussie beefcake! ... :tongue:
night all and sorry again

You were indeed out of line but after some provoking so lets put it behind us all.

Beefcake you say??? Sorry for the girly assumption lol.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by Sunny_01
Ok so you use Shipman, he is an example of 1 person who abused his position but look at the thousands of doctors out there every day working hard on our behalf to get it right. I think to trawl out Shipman for this argument belittles the positions of so many good people working in the health care and social care sectors.

Like I previously said I am aware of your own personal struggles but that doesnt give you the only valid opinion on the matter. I am strongly in favour of personal choice with this, I dont think anyone should be denied the right to choose. You have stated your position Angie and I respect that, you if given the choice would choose to stay alive, but someone else in your position could well choose to end their suffering.

As for the dig at Ange about her making you want to die, well that was a pretty low blow, that was uncalled for and was purely for a reaction :bored: I appreciate that you did not like what was said to you, but I think that was very low.

Nobody is denied a right to choose, if they were I'd feel entirely different about this, thats my point.

That is also A long long way off making suicide legal.
People can ..will and do whatever they feel is right for them, and AGAIN for the record I would support and respect there course of action.
That too though is a long long way short of supporting a legalised suicide.

I have NEVER EVER saught sympathy on this forum for my condition, NEVER!!!! I completely resent that when in fact Ive done everything possible to treat this place as a normal poster as possible, you have no idea to what extent that manifests itself so don't talk to me about low blows and pretend to "appreciate" what I may or may not like.
I don't need patronising thank you very much.

As for the comment to ange it seems you and her have missed the point yet again, many times Ive wished I was dead , as I'm sure we have all said at some time.
Thats no low blow its a figure of speach which was meant to highlight exactly how easy someone can wish to die, given the "ideal" criteria ange stipulated in an earlier post, that wish together with my non improving terminal condition means all I need is to find a doc whom Ive never met before and hey .........I'm dead.

Now how low a blow would that be?

[Stu]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
As for the comment to ange it seems you and her have missed the point yet again, many times Ive wished I was dead , as I'm sure we have all said at some time.
Im not missing any points again, I really wish you were not so patronising. How are my to tell in a thread of this nature, coupled with some other posts you have made, when you are being serious or when you are just trying to highlight some subtext through macabre posts?

[Tom]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Originally posted by Angiebabe
Harold Shipman is an example of a legal and sound minded Doctor (up until his arrest did we know differently) Who would be called to make or help to qualify decisions on assisted suicide, he is therefore a very good example of how legalising suicidecan and will go wrong.
I use social services as they would also be involved in this dilema should we all lose our marbles and make this law, (but to be honest I don't think we in the UK will ever get that barmy) unless of course a seperate but equally incompetant and bungling buracrtic organisation is going to be "made up" specialising in this area. All we have now are Doctors and Social workers.
Either way mistakes WILL be made..thats fact
Miss use will be likely and definately possible, so why change what we have now? Preventing one mistake and 1 one miss use to me eqautes to 2 innocent people staying alive.
What is wrong with that?

Im fed up of people saying the NHS and Social Services are incompetant, corrupt, bungling etc! Not looking at the bl***y good stuff they do or really thinks about the reasons why mistakes get made from time to time!

Agreed- we have the third best health service in the world- hardly incompetant!

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by Sunny_01
Ok so you use Shipman, he is an example of 1 person who abused his position but look at the thousands of doctors out there every day working hard on our behalf to get it right. I think to trawl out Shipman for this argument belittles the positions of so many good people working in the health care and social care sectors.

Like I previously said I am aware of your own personal struggles but that doesnt give you the only valid opinion on the matter. I am strongly in favour of personal choice with this, I dont think anyone should be denied the right to choose. You have stated your position Angie and I respect that, you if given the choice would choose to stay alive, but someone else in your position could well choose to end their suffering.

As for the dig at Ange about her making you want to die, well that was a pretty low blow, that was uncalled for and was purely for a reaction :bored: I appreciate that you did not like what was said to you, but I think that was very low.

Nobody is denied a right to choose, if they were I'd feel entirely different about this, thats my point.

That is also A long long way off making suicide legal.
People can ..will and do whatever they feel is right for them, and AGAIN for the record I would support and respect there course of action.
That too though is a long long way short of supporting a legalised suicide.

I have NEVER EVER saught sympathy on this forum for my condition, NEVER!!!! I completely resent that when in fact Ive done everything possible to treat this place as a normal poster as possible, you have no idea to what extent that manifests itself so don't talk to me about low blows and pretend to "appreciate" what I may or may not like.
I don't need patronising thank you very much.

As for the comment to ange it seems you and her have missed the point yet again, many times Ive wished I was dead , as I'm sure we have all said at some time.
Thats no low blow its a figure of speach which was meant to highlight exactly how easy someone can wish to die, given the "ideal" criteria ange stipulated in an earlier post, that wish together with my non improving terminal condition means all I need is to find a doc whom Ive never met before and hey .........I'm dead.

Now how low a blow would that be?

You appear to have gone off on another tangent again. You seem to change your mind like the weather.

Patronise you, believe me if I wanted to patronise you I would, I was trying to be respectful which appears to be something you dont understand so I wont bother anymore.

Your saying now that you were not reaching for the sympathy vote when you said Ange7's comment made you want to die was no figure of speech it was a deliberate attempt IMO to mainpulate the situation, but hey what do I know.

Edited to change wording

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by Stu
Originally posted by Angiebabe
Many times I've felt like wanting to die, the latest being when I read you horrid reply.
A bit heavy, dont you think? I appreciate what your going through but your either on a vendetta to make somebody look in a worse light or you really take this place to seriously. One post your talking about your will to live and the next your talking about wanting to die because of a post you read on an internet forum?

No I don't think so at all, again I expected a little thought from you, take a look at you posts in the "hate" thread.

Ive wished I was dead during child birth even during a heavy nights drinking in the past, and in a far lesser way after reading a post.
I dare say tomorrow I'll wake up in a better mood and wish to jump over the moon, but I wont be announcing that here I woulnt want you or any body else wasting your money on buying a damn telescope just to see if I made it.

Now has the penny dropped.

[Red Moon]

I understand this is a very emotive subject, and some of us have either personal experiences of living in pain or with conditions that affect our lives or know of love ones that have died in pain or that have conditions affected the quality of their lives. We will all have our own views on the subject and it right and heathy that we are allowed to discuss them in a thread like this. However, for the sake of a good debate posters should try to endeavor that their posts don't get too personal.

If you do give out personal information people will comment on it and it might not be what you want to hear, but if they do you must reply carefully and stick to the TiBB rules.

It also important to be aware of the facts when posting in a thread like this and stay on topic. Talking about different issues which might seem related but are not related at all will confused matter will only lead to people pulling your argument apart.

Be careful what you say you, people will take things at face value and might misinterpret what you are saying and get a meaning from your post you did intend.

Using first hand personal experiences in topics like this can lead problems if you don't carefully word replies, and if you can talk in more general terms then the debate will run more smoothly and you will get your point across better.

Finally I will be watching this thread and reading every post.... please take a moment before you post to read your replies to other posters and make sure your post doesn't provoke an personal argument of any kind.

Red

[Stu]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by Stu
Originally posted by Angiebabe
Many times I've felt like wanting to die, the latest being when I read you horrid reply.
A bit heavy, dont you think? I appreciate what your going through but your either on a vendetta to make somebody look in a worse light or you really take this place to seriously. One post your talking about your will to live and the next your talking about wanting to die because of a post you read on an internet forum?

No I don't think so at all, again I expected a little thought from you, take a look at you posts in the "hate" thread.

Ive wished I was dead during child birth even during a heavy nights drinking in the past, and in a far lesser way after reading a post.
I dare say tomorrow I'll wake up in a better mood and wish to jump over the moon, but I wont be announcing that here I woulnt want you or any body else wasting your money on buying a damn telescope just to see if I made it.

Now has the penny dropped.
Again, I find it annoying how patronising your attempting to be. Each post to me your mentioning somehting about how you thought a little more of me. You can stop that, okay? Its pretty damn annoying. Having different views to you is not an opening for you to take digs at my character. Not appriciated.

And for what its worth, I have absoloutely no idea where your going with this. I saw your comment about wanting to die because of a post you read, and so I made a reply as I found it in poor taste [who wants to hear that, let alone have the burden of thinking it when their posting on an internet forum?], but apparently my reply was lacking in thought, as if all of us on TiBB have standbye emergency thought packages, giving us the knowledge of knowing EXACTLY what to say to someone who makes a comment open to such dangerous interpretation.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Ive thought about this some more and I find it really sad that people have to go abroad on their own to die and their loved ones cant be with them. So if we're going to respect peoples choice to die (which Angiebabe you said you do), then surely we have to make it legal.

[Sunny_01]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Ive thought about this some more and I find it really sad that people have to go abroad on their own to die and their loved ones cant be with them. So if we're going to respect peoples choice to die (which Angiebabe you said you do), then surely we have to make it legal.

I agree with you, having to leave your own home, family and all the things familiar to you to die must be awful, but it kind of makes you realise how determined people are to actually die if they will go to those lengths.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by Sticks
The country was Holland

And if you want you can look at this study (http://www.hospicecare.com/Ethics/pollard2.htm) which documents statistics on Non-Voluntary Euthanasia

Not quite the hand-waving you thought I was doing


So no comment on the study I provided a link to?

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Sticks
The country was Holland

And if you want you can look at this study (http://www.hospicecare.com/Ethics/pollard2.htm) which documents statistics on Non-Voluntary Euthanasia

Not quite the hand-waving you thought I was doing


So no comment on the study I provided a link to?

sorry sticks havent had a chance to read it properly I'll give it a go at some point...it seems to be largely based on theory and conjecture at first glance but Ive not read it properly

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Sticks
The country was Holland

And if you want you can look at this study (http://www.hospicecare.com/Ethics/pollard2.htm) which documents statistics on Non-Voluntary Euthanasia

Not quite the hand-waving you thought I was doing


So no comment on the study I provided a link to?

"In 1993, authors from the department of Public Health at the Erasmus University could write: 'But is it not true that once one accepts euthanasia and assisted suicide, the principle of universalizability forces one to accept termination of life without explicit request, at least sometimes, as well? In our view, the answer to this question must be in the affirmative' (12)."

This seems to be an important quote to me and the theme running through the article. Their view is this but Ive yet to see hard evidence that a natural progression from voluntary euthanasia would be more cases of non-voluntary euthanasia because it would seem more of an ethically viable option. Its pure conjecture from what I see so far

[AngRemembered]

I just read the link Sticks, very interesting reading in paticular the statistics from Australia and the conclusions brought about from the report itself.

It does confirm my own and the majority of people I've spoken with concerns over assisted suicide.

Although I don't like the idea of making assisted suicide legal, that DOES NOT mean I automatically must wish pain and suffering to people with terminal illnesss. Like wise I DO NOT take the view that ALL THOSE who disagree are wanton killers with alterior motives.
I've met and spoken to people who would wish to be assisted and relatives who would assist a person in taking there own life.
For them it is the right and proper thing to do, and who am I or anyone else to judge or punish them as "murderers"
However the right thing to do for them is still along way short of making this a concrete LAW for everyone else.
What we have in the UK now is a fine balance enough (IMO), where as I'm sure assisted suicide does and will happen and continue, all without the need to involve police investigations or charges being brought forward.
In other words I'd rather have this issue decided by the morals of individuals directly involved rather than a state run law judged by people who will never really know what the facts may or may not have been.

Neither is perfect, trusting peoples morals is no gurantee things will be right, neither (IMO) is any proposed regulated formula I've yet seen.
I've said many times I've wished I was dead, and really meant it on occasions, in reality though I've NEVER actually wished I was dead, or I would be.
That's why in my situation I'd like the legal stance left unchanged, I feel that benefits far more people than it hurts.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
I just read the link Sticks, very interesting reading in paticular the statistics from Australia and the conclusions brought about from the report itself.

It does confirm my own and the majority of people I've spoken with concerns over assisted suicide.

Although I don't like the idea of making assisted suicide legal, that DOES NOT mean I automatically must wish pain and suffering to people with terminal illnesss. Like wise I DO NOT take the view that ALL THOSE who disagree are wanton killers with alterior motives.
I've met and spoken to people who would wish to be assisted and relatives who would assist a person in taking there own life.
For them it is the right and proper thing to do, and who am I or anyone else to judge or punish them as "murderers"
However the right thing to do for them is still along way short of making this a concrete LAW for everyone else.
What we have in the UK now is a fine balance enough (IMO), where as I'm sure assisted suicide does and will happen and continue, all without the need to involve police investigations or charges being brought forward.
In other words I'd rather have this issue decided by the morals of individuals directly involved rather than a state run law judged by people who will never really know what the facts may or may not have been.

Neither is perfect, trusting peoples morals is no gurantee things will be right, neither (IMO) is any proposed regulated formula I've yet seen.
I've said many times I've wished I was dead, and really meant it on occasions, in reality though I've NEVER actually wished I was dead, or I would be.
That's why in my situation I'd like the legal stance left unchanged, I feel that benefits far more people than it hurts.

Does it benefit the people who have to die alone in a foreign country without their loved ones around? Does it benefit the loved ones who cant be with them when they die? If your saying that you agree with people doing it for their own personal reasons, and if we all agree that as a society then why not make it legal so people dont have to die alone...

Also the statistics in that article just add to conjecture they dont appear to be meaningful on their own. I would like to see more comparative studies.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Does it benefit the loved ones who cant be with them when they die? If your saying that you agree with people doing it for their own personal reasons, and if we all agree that as a society then why not make it legal so people dont have to die alone...


There is no perfect solution to this issue thats for sure, so my answer to your first 2 questions is a straight and UNCHANGED throughout this thread NO, it won't benefit those cases.

IF however we can ever ALL agree as a socierty or even just gain a majority then yes, it would make sense to make assisted suicide lawful, but take a look at this thread alone, and together with other forum debates you will clearly see that is one mighty big IF.

And I stress again that from the 16 or so regular patients I have seen and to whom this issue applies to them most of all, the majority do have reservations on a change in law.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
Does it benefit the loved ones who cant be with them when they die? If your saying that you agree with people doing it for their own personal reasons, and if we all agree that as a society then why not make it legal so people dont have to die alone...


There is no perfect solution to this issue thats for sure, so my answer to your first 2 questions is a straight and UNCHANGED throughout this thread NO, it won't benefit those cases.

IF however we can ever ALL agree as a socierty or even just gain a majority then yes, it would make sense to make assisted suicide lawful, but take a look at this thread alone, and together with other forum debates you will clearly see that is one mighty big IF.

And I stress again that from the 16 or so regular patients I have seen and to whom this issue applies to them most of all, the majority do have reservations on a change in law.

well maybe they just havent thought about it thouroughly, I mean my initial reaction was making it legal is a massive thing and I wasnt sure about it, but im swaying massively towards it should be about personal choice and if thats the case then it has to be regulated and made legal

[Red Moon]

Doctors in the UK already take part in assisted suicides in a way, it is just that it is in the grey area of the law. I know of people that have died as a result of very large doses of morphine rather than then being killed by the condition causing the pain the morphine is prescribed for after the Doctor has talked to the patient and sort their views on what they want to happen at the end.

Wouldn't it be better to have some kind of law to give the Doctors protection and allow the patents protection against Mangers trying to cut NHS budgets who then put pressure on Doctors because the Mangers want a fast turn around of hospital beds?

[ange7]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by Sticks
The country was Holland

And if you want you can look at this study (http://www.hospicecare.com/Ethics/pollard2.htm) which documents statistics on Non-Voluntary Euthanasia

Not quite the hand-waving you thought I was doing


So no comment on the study I provided a link to?
I take it this is directed to my post to you earlier asking for a link that backed up your point of view. I ignored it because it didn't back up what you said. I find it disingenuous of you to argue your point using that faux logic when what really is motivating you stand points are you religious beliefs. Which is fine sticks...I'm religious too but clearly not as conservative as you.
Your view was
"This should remain illegal and it's time they started enforcing this law, like in the case of the parents wgo took their son to Dignitas
Legitimising assisted suicide will put the elderly and disabled at risk by relatives pressurising them in to dying for financial gain.

I asked if you had proof of a systematic failure in the health system that could be evidenced by clear convictions in the courts. That link goes now where to prove your case for families in collusion with doctors fabricating documentation in order to murder loved ones for financial gain... which was your point... do you stand by that point yes or no? The stats in that article are include everything from abortions to cases where there was 100% brain death .... these are examples of NVE are they? And that backs you point up how exactly?

[ange7]

Originally posted by Angiebabe
I just read the link Sticks, very interesting reading in paticular the statistics from Australia and the conclusions brought about from the report itself.

It does confirm my own and the majority of people I've spoken with concerns over assisted suicide.

Although I don't like the idea of making assisted suicide legal, that DOES NOT mean I automatically must wish pain and suffering to people with terminal illnesss. Like wise I DO NOT take the view that ALL THOSE who disagree are wanton killers with alterior motives.
I've met and spoken to people who would wish to be assisted and relatives who would assist a person in taking there own life.
For them it is the right and proper thing to do, and who am I or anyone else to judge or punish them as "murderers"
However the right thing to do for them is still along way short of making this a concrete LAW for everyone else.
What we have in the UK now is a fine balance enough (IMO), where as I'm sure assisted suicide does and will happen and continue, all without the need to involve police investigations or charges being brought forward.
In other words I'd rather have this issue decided by the morals of individuals directly involved rather than a state run law judged by people who will never really know what the facts may or may not have been.

Neither is perfect, trusting peoples morals is no gurantee things will be right, neither (IMO) is any proposed regulated formula I've yet seen.
I've said many times I've wished I was dead, and really meant it on occasions, in reality though I've NEVER actually wished I was dead, or I would be.
That's why in my situation I'd like the legal stance left unchanged, I feel that benefits far more people than it hurts.
Angiebabe you said you liked the link as it backs up your opinion. How so? I can't see how it does nor did you point to anything in the article that backed up you arguments... in fact you didn't even mention which of your many and varied "points" were backed up by parts of that article. Please let me know.

You also mentioned you were interested in the statistics from Australia.... do you mean the statistics of illegal euthanasia by doctors on patents in the gay community who are presumably dying a long slow drawn out and painful death due to the AIDS virus. Thought that would have caught your eye. Yes euthanasia is illegal in Australia... the fact that it still happens and none are convicted ought to tell you something. And anyway that surely can't be classified as Non Voluntary Euthanasia and puts a question mark on the validity of the whole article You don't think the lovers of those dying AIDS patients who have nursed them for sometimes up to 8 months before death have never talked about the ill persons wishes regarding Euthanasia? Yet this gets classed as Non Voluntary Euthanasia somehow ... some strange stats in that article form the "International Association for Hospice & Palliative Care"
You keep saying lets have a "balanced approach" and keep the laws as they are. That's not balanced, that's you being conservative and immovable ... as it stands euthanasia is illegal.... that's not balanced no matter how hard you try to sound moderate and flexible by repeatedly saying the word "balanced".
Angebabe you said
"I've met and spoken to people who would wish to be assisted and relatives who would assist a person in taking there own life. For them it is the right and proper thing to do"
great so you agree with us thanks. ....lol then you say those people would like the laws to remain as they are...!!??!. what.?!!

[AngRemembered]

"Angiebabe you said you liked the link as it backs up your opinion."

No, I did'nt I said I found the article interesting reading and gave the reasons why as it confirms concerns I have over assisted suicide.
That is nowhere near liking an article because it backs up my argument.
My post also answers the question you left in that same opening paragraph.

"You also mentioned you were interested in the statistics from Australia.... do you mean the statistics of illegal euthanasia by doctors on patents in the gay community who are presumably dying a long slow drawn out and painful death due to the AIDS virus. Thought that would have caught your eye"

You presumed wrong, therefore with respect its not worth making additional comment to your views left in this paragraph.

You keep saying lets have a "balanced approach"

Again no I did'nt, indeed nowhere near what I actually said.
I said what we have now in the UK (IMO) A FINE BALANCE ENOUGH, (maybe you can go back and read that part again, that will help you with the rest of the erronous judgement you made in that paragraph also)

Angebabe you said
"I've met and spoken to people who would wish to be assisted and relatives who would assist a person in taking there own life. For them it is the right and proper thing to do"
great so you agree with us thanks. ....lol then you say those people would like the laws to remain as they are...!!??!. what.?!!

Again this is a completely unfair representation of what I actually wrote.
To further explain what I actually wrote.........
The people whom I've spoken to in favour of assisted suicide (although I DISAGREE with the principle of assisted suicide) I would morally support there action as the right thing FOR THEM to do, without ever judging them as "murderes"
However, (and based on my own personal circumstances coming into contact with patients suffering terminal illness) because there view is a minority within the group I meet, I use those people (the majority) as the people who would not wish the law to change on assisted suicide.
Obviously those patients whom I meet and disagree would still wish the law to change, but do appreciate that they still can, and will take whatever actions they may wish, without personal fear of prosecution (they will be dead) or the likelehood of the assistant being prosecuted based on a, being found out... b, whether the prosecution would be in the public interest baring in mind the common view (amongst ALL including myself) that deaths in this manner should be treated sympathetically.

[NettoSuperstar!]

"The stats in that article are include everything from abortions to cases where there was 100% brain death .... these are examples of NVE are they? And that backs you point up how exactly?"

Good point Ange I didnt think about what was included in those stats but your right and none of the stats prove a progression from Legal Euthanasia to more cases fo NVE from what I see. which I think is what they are saying would happen. And Reds right, I've worked in a hospital and high doses of morphine are given to ease patients suffering even though they might be too weak and die from such doses. But having seen when those instances occur I would not be angry if it was any of my family being given them. The more you look at it, the more reasons there are to legalize it.

[Sticks]

I think that practice in hospitals is referred to Double effect

[Tom]

Originally posted by Red Moon
Doctors in the UK already take part in assisted suicides in a way, it is just that it is in the grey area of the law. I know of people that have died as a result of very large doses of morphine rather than then being killed by the condition causing the pain the morphine is prescribed for after the Doctor has talked to the patient and sort their views on what they want to happen at the end.

Wouldn't it be better to have some kind of law to give the Doctors protection and allow the patents protection against Mangers trying to cut NHS budgets who then put pressure on Doctors because the Mangers want a fast turn around of hospital beds?

There is also a back door to euthanasia. It is perfectly legal for the NHS to withdraw medical treatment so euthanasia can be done in the way of unplugging a life support machine or not giving treatment that will eventually lead to death. But that happens to some people and it doesn't work. For example there was a case a while back where the family of an old woman who was suffering from a terminal illness and was at the end said it was OK to withdraw medical treatment in hope that she would die quick and be free from pain etc, but her body took a while to pack in and she died weighing under three stone a week or so later because she was barely conscious and couldn't eat, couldn't even open her eyes etc. In cases like that where people have no quality of life I think it is very important that euthanasia is legal. Why prolong suffering of both the patient and the family when clearly there is no way it can improve?

[ange7]

Originally posted by NettoSuperstar!
"The stats in that article are include everything from abortions to cases where there was 100% brain death .... these are examples of NVE are they? And that backs you point up how exactly?"

Good point Ange I didnt think about what was included in those stats but your right and none of the stats prove a progression from Legal Euthanasia to more cases fo NVE from what I see. which I think is what they are saying would happen. And Reds right, I've worked in a hospital and high doses of morphine are given to ease patients suffering even though they might be too weak and die from such doses. But having seen when those instances occur I would not be angry if it was any of my family being given them. The more you look at it, the more reasons there are to legalize it.
Yeah that's how my uncle went out ... doped on morphine. At the end he was so weak that he couldn't lift his own head off the pillow. When the back of his head got sweaty and uncomfortable he'd motion for us with his eyes to adjust it. I remember as I did my fingers felt how incredibly hot and wet the back of his head was. It shocked me how vital that feeling seemed compared to his wasted tiny body. He was a huge giant of a man with a booming laugh but the way he went out makes me angry. It was long and full of misery and due to the morphine it was hard knowing when he was conscious or when he was hallucinating or out of it. At one point he came to, his eyes focused on me and the rolled back in his head again... He died the following morning and the idea that his last conscious memory was of being in terrible pain and wishing he was dead while looking at my face is something that still haunts me.

From this point on the post has been edited for the content tat was edging on a personal attack, however because the issue has been personalised I have left the posters questions within the post as much as possible.

I don't like editing posts in this way and I will try and show where content has been removed if I can. A copy of the original has been kept in TiBB Towers, along with the rest of the thread for reference only.

Red

[cut 1]

Angibabe. You seem to keep trying to short circuit the whole debate by suggesting that you know better than the rest......

[cut 2]

Do us all a favour and outline you position clearly...

with no guilty tripping,
with no "I thought better of you stu"
with no " you make me want to die your so nasty boohoo"... with no wild shipman and baby p or NHS meltdown tangents....
with no using the symathy card eg "I now have a cold, which could mean a death sentance in itself...each and every day I wake up in excrusiating pain"
with no short circuiting of the whole debate by trying to again claim a greater knowledge "hey I know some people who are dying and they agree with me so there!!".

Just give us your position "I'm against voluntary and assisted suicide because....."

[Sticks]

I'm against voluntary and assisted suicide because

It is a slippery slope to the kind of things that happened under the NAZI regime in WW2.

People with disabilities were exterminated as they were not perfect. It is feasible that someone could say the same of some people with disabilities, as in the long run they could save money on providing care.

Proof of this is around already where parents have to fight to get certificates of special needs. My sister with her first child has had to.

I'm against voluntary and assisted suicide because

Old people could be pressurised by either relatives or administrators of care homes who care more about money.

[ange7]

Originally posted by Sticks
I'm against voluntary and assisted suicide because

It is a slippery slope to the kind of things that happened under the NAZI regime in WW2.

People with disabilities were exterminated as they were not perfect. It is feasible that someone could say the same of some people with disabilities, as in the long run they could save money on providing care.

Proof of this is around already where parents have to fight to get certificates of special needs. My sister with her first child has had to.

I'm against voluntary and assisted suicide because

Old people could be pressurised by either relatives or administrators of care homes who care more about money.
So Sticks did you read my last post to Angiebabe about disliking how she tries to be emotive and sidetrack an argument by attacking the credibility of those she argues against via falsely associating their views with the likes of Shipman. So you go her one better and add the NAZI?. wow!!
So is that who your fighting against.... Nazi sympathisers? You dirty our name and motives with a nazi reference? So people like me who care about the respect and dignity of the one's we love are initiating a slippery slope that could lead to some kind of Orwellian Nazi dystopia ? How's that exactly? If the thing is regulated as Tom said or even over regulated with lots of checks and balances as I've said ( multiple doctors plus a shrink) then surly that would mitigate those possibilities. Why do you and Angibabe keep ignoring that point? Anyway you made this point before but you couldn't back it up.... yet here it is again in a new form ..." it could lead to" instead of "in Holland it has led to". ps you didn't reply to my last post...

Hypothetically Sticks if they could guarantee instances of abuse of the like you've mentioned would you then support euthanasia? I know that kind of guarantee is impossible but I think your answer would still be no. Would it?

[Sticks]

Ange7

In the news today, they are talking about screening for autism (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1112622/Autism-test-unborn-babies-raises-fears-rise-abortions.html). They have a test for Downs already

The real purpose of these tests is so mothers to be can be advised to terminate the foetus.

That is the hidden under-current in these tests, that people with such disabilities should be exterminated as soon as possible.

I realise I have complied with Godwin's law by refering to the Nazi regime, but that was not in relation to the classic case of the OAP with a terminal illness, I thought I covered that sort of in the OAP pressurised to die scenario.

The reference to Nazi Germany during the 1930's and 1940's is in relation to the disabled, where those who were mentally ill or had downs and such the like were considered not fit to live and were so exterminated. This is not unlike the philosphy behind the screening tests for autism and downs.

As resources get scarce, or costs rise, it is easy to imagine someone considering that a disabled child in their care is too costly, and then claiming that their quality of life is poor as a pretext for a timely and cheap extermination. History tells us that it happened before.

Also I did give a link to a study. It was just one of many I found by using google. The experience in Holland is that there have been some non voluntary euthenasia. The so called perfect system, has been abused.

[Sunny_01]

Sticks I understand the point you are making with regards to testing for Autism, and downs etc... however I think it is a step forward to a certain extent. Why shouldnt pregnant mothers have the right to choose if we have the ability to know and understand. It isnt really euthanasia its a form of choice. I know a lot of women who would still choose to conitnue with pregnancy or would in fact refuse the testing so I am unsure of how your argument relates to this particular discussion.

Ange7 - I am with you all the way here, we really should allow people the choice about what happens to them as they approach the end of their lives, if they choose to live great, if not well I am sure it would not be an easy decision to reach. I hate the thought of having to watch another person suffer that does not want to.

[~Kizwiz~]

I think with the right legislation, euthanasia should be made legal in this country.

Everyone should have the right to choose should they wish. I would hate to be in pain and not able to live my life the way that I want.

God forbid that I am ever in that situation but I would want the right to die with the people who I love around me.

If I can have a pet put down because they are in too much pain I surely should be allowed to do the same for myself?

[Sticks]

But my point is, that with legalised euthanasia, people who would not elect to die, will either be pressurised into it, or someone will, for financial gain pervert the system to get an inconvenient relative bumped off.

In the article I posted a link to it alludes to this happening in Holland, and I vaguely remember hearing, possibly on a radio programme that this was rumoured to happen.

[Sunny_01]

Alludes to and rumoured to does not mean it ACTUALLY does happen though, its all just specualtion to be honest and that means little if anything to me,.

[letmein]

Originally posted by Sticks
I'm against voluntary and assisted suicide because

It is a slippery slope to the kind of things that happened under the NAZI regime in WW2.

People with disabilities were exterminated as they were not perfect. It is feasible that someone could say the same of some people with disabilities, as in the long run they could save money on providing care.

Those people were sentenced to death against their will. There is no such relation.

We're talking about terminally ill patients. Disabilities are not the same thing. We're talking about people who are suffering a long painful death.

[AngRemembered]

Originally posted by ange7
"I'm against voluntary and assisted suicide because....."

its open to abuse.

[Sticks]

Originally posted by letmein
Those people were sentenced to death against their will. There is no such relation.

We're talking about terminally ill patients. Disabilities are not the same thing. We're talking about people who are suffering a long painful death.

But look how anti terror legislation has been used to spy on people to see if they are putting bins out on the right day, if they are living where they say they are living when they are applying for a specific school for their child.

Laws made for one thing have been subverted to achieve something else.

A disabled child will need a statement of special needs, so it is not against the bounds of possibilities that such legislation could be used to terminate disabled children to "ease their pain and suffering" in order to safe money should they be allowed to live.

[lily.]

Graeme, I'd like to respond to this part of your post:

In the news today, they are talking about screening for autism. They have a test for Downs already

The real purpose of these tests is so mothers to be can be advised to terminate the foetus.

I refused those tests with both my pregnancies, because they would not have affected my decision to continue to term.

However, I support the rights of expectant mothers who choose to have the tests, and furthermore choose to terminate based on the results of such tests.

For me it's all about choice. I'm pro-choice. Therefore, I'm pro-euthanasia.

[letmein]

Originally posted by Sticks
Originally posted by letmein
Those people were sentenced to death against their will. There is no such relation.

We're talking about terminally ill patients. Disabilities are not the same thing. We're talking about people who are suffering a long painful death.

But look how anti terror legislation has been used to spy on people to see if they are putting bins out on the right day, if they are living where they say they are living when they are applying for a specific school for their child.

Laws made for one thing have been subverted to achieve something else.

A disabled child will need a statement of special needs, so it is not against the bounds of possibilities that such legislation could be used to terminate disabled children to "ease their pain and suffering" in order to safe money should they be allowed to live.

You can then apply that logic to everything. You make the law as detailed and as strict as possible.

Don't get me wrong, I am listening to what you're saying. I'm not attacking or anything.

[letmein]

Originally posted by Linda
Graeme, I'd like to respond to this part of your post:

In the news today, they are talking about screening for autism. They have a test for Downs already

The real purpose of these tests is so mothers to be can be advised to terminate the foetus.

I refused those tests with both my pregnancies, because they would not have affected my decision to continue to term.

However, I support the rights of expectant mothers who choose to have the tests, and furthermore choose to terminate based on the results of such tests.

For me it's all about choice. I'm pro-choice. Therefore, I'm pro-euthanasia.

Pro-choice is not pro-euthanasia. It is not yet a human being up until a certain stage in the pregnancy. Pro-choice also means having the right to choose or choose not to have an abortion. It's a person's right to their own body, and thus, can be applied to have the right to die.

[lily.]

Pro-choice = I support the right to choose.

This applies to both scenarios.

[acidburn08]

Heres the way that you should assist them.
Step 1. Give them a nice cold beer
Step 2. Take `em to a phychiatrist
Step 3. Tell em its pointless killing themselves, Life goes on no matter what happens :D