As a species, we obey our superiors. The generals obey the emperor, the captains obey the generals, and the soldiers obey the captains. It's a small loop, and doesn't require some kind of dictator to hold centralised power.

Even recently we've seen what can happen in photo's of both our armies abusing enemy soldiers we've captured. We know that's wrong, and those soldiers must know it's wrong too, but people do stupid things wherever there are chains of command that sanction such behaviour.

Any ideology concerning nationalism is extremely flawed in my book. I don't believe in American exceptionalism, I don't believe in the flag waving Rule Britannia's either.

People are just people, and we just want to fit in.

Sorry, but I don't agree with your relativism.

All countries did not act as evil as Japan did during the war, but all countries have humans.

Saying some people are evil in every country has nothing to do with evil countries doing evil things during past wars. This kind of relativism can be used to excuse anything.

Americans are the descendents of those colonists, you're not a completely different people. When I see white Americans on TV now talking about traditional America, they aren't talking about a time when indigenous people had the run of the land.

white Americans? Oh, i guess when you said Americans, you only meant white people././ wtf.

and FYI, the vast majority of white people in America, came long after Slavery and any assaults on the Native Americans was long over.

the vast majority of white people in America have no connection to owning slaves, or to fighting with the Native people at all. It was specifically the European colonists that did that. so get it right.

It was a European crime more than an American crime. Especially because it was the European aristocracy that was profiting most from colonialism. It was the rich European families profiting from colonialism, not America.

All countries didn't act as evil as Germany did either, or Russia, but they have humans too. It is all about the authority.

It's insane to think that a group of people who share an island could have an evil trait. Fear of your (so called) superiors is a powerful motivator. We see it today - people are dying of starvation in north Korea, yet they are all too scared to fight it.

I don't believe the soldiers who run the prisons in that state, are wired differently to you or I. They don't have evil genes or traits. They are just people living in and with different circumstances. History shows us this is what happens. Otherwise the Germans would still be running bombing raids on London.

So it was a multi-cultural America at the time you were wiping out the natives?

You've just proved my point.

Exactly - there are no collectively evil traits for nation states..

umm, what? Nothing you said applies to anything you are replying to. did you actually read what i said before you replied?

Your replies make no sense.

The vast majority of white Americans came long after slavery and assaults on native americans were over, so how does your reply make sense? Do you understand that most people in America are not ancestors of the people that came over on Mayflower? they came long after, long after colonialism was over. they didn't own slaves, they came here with nothing and had to work their way up against the aristocracy.

Slavery and Colonialism was a European thing, not an American thing.
You really don't seem to know much about American history at all.

The pilgrims that first went across to America to escape the authority of the European church - what heritage were they? What was the heritage of the people who wiped the indigenous people out of the country?

European. And you make a good point, because theres different waves of colonists to the Amerricas, there were people like the Pilgrims who wanted to escape religious persecution, but the vast MAJORITY of colonialism was funded by rich people to RAPE the Americas of it's resources. Top find gold and precious metals, or to start plantations to export tobacco and sugar back to Europe.... these were European exploitations, not American.

But you are talking about the original colonists.

You forget that the vast majority of America's population boom came in the 20th century. People that had no connection to slaveyr or European imperialism/colonialism at all.

You don't seem to grasp the timeline of American history.

You seem hell bent on exonerating Europe for these crimes, and saying these are American crimes though.

But you are wrong.

I agree with Jesus, people are not born inherently evil, it's a learned behaviour. In times of war, particularly a war as desperate as World War II, soldiers did and saw unspeakably awful things on both sides and from all nations. Japan may have been particularly cruel to prisoners but so were other nations - they were living in extreme conditions, the generation who lived through World War II, and unfortunately it provoked the extreme side of human nature in some instances. Seeing as the USA is the only country in the world to have used nuclear technology in a weaponised form, I wouldn't say it's proven itself responsible with it at all, there was no need to irreversibly damage Japanese territory, kill all those people and create an entire underclass of people in Japan who are completely outcast from society (hibakusha) because of the deformities they have.

As for the Europeans/Americans debate going on... those European settlers went to America to seek out a new life and were the forefathers of America today. Either they were Europeans raping the locals of their resources or they were immigrants who declared themselves to be American. It doesn't really matter, does it? They were Europeans who left Europe to become Americans who live in America. The actions and events that took place remain the same, just splitting hairs debating who did what when it was the same people... their nationality isn't exactly the important point here.

that is simply false, many other countries have also used nuclear weapons. including the UK, france, China, Russia....etc.

No other country in the world has bombed another country with nuclear technology. Other countries have access to that technology and have tested it out in remote parts of their territory, but there have been no further Hiroshimas or Nagasakis.

Yeah, I'm well aware that people came later, but exactly what are you using as a cut off point? Some of the founding fathers were slave owners, so I'm a bit confused at your portrayal of the history of the US as being bad at the start, but it was all cleared up as quickly as anything, when the US was battling appalling race crimes and segregation more recently than we were both fighting Nazism.

This is moving miles away from my initial argument that there are no such things as evil traits within the people that share a piece of land and live in close proximity to each other - that's the point I came into this thread to make, so I have no idea how we're now on American history!!

I'm objecting to your moral relativism, we are talking a very specific time in history and very specific behaviors and actions by specific countries.

I'm objecting to you acting like everyone is just equally weevil to let's just pretend it didn't happen.

I'm objecting to relativism in general.

I'm objecting to the idea that you can't criticize specific countries actions during specific times, and let's just all shut up and forgive everyone for everything and say that the whole world is evil, humans are evil, and no one should judge anyone else, and let's just act like everything that happens in the world is just part of one big pot of ****, therefore you never hold any specific country accountable. That's what i'm objecting to.

It's not fair to say that all humans are evil, so let's just forget which countries did what to whom. Sorry, but we shouldn't forget, and yes certain countries did certain things and they should ALWAYS be held accountable for them.

Not all humans were evil during ww2, Japan and Germany and Italy were evil. And it's a disgrace to act like all countries were wrong back then, cause we weren't. some countries are worse than others. i'm sick of this relativistic idea of equality.

All Countries are NOT equal. All Cultures are NOT equal. All People are NOT equal.

America used those weapons to end the worst war in the history of the world. (a war which America shouldn't have even been involved in, a war created by Europe)

If ever there is a time to use them, that was it. America stepped in when it didn't have to, to end the worst and most dangerous war in human history.

I don't agree that all humans are evil, no. I do believe every single one of us has the capacity to act in the same way that the guards in Auschwitz did. Every last person on the planet.

As we're being specific again, about a specific country during a specific time, we punished those people. How long should the punishment last? How many generations should we wait before welcoming them back into the worldwide community again? Is 70 years enough? Should we wait 150 years? Maybe 1000?

Who makes that judgement. Keeping people separate only increases isolation, which in turn, offers a breeding ground for more resentment, and potential for trouble.

The Japanese are more interested in karaoke, underage sex, and getting hand jobs from robots, than they are about attacking America. Our own dickishness will continually come back and bite us on the ass if we keep treating countries like children on the naughty step.

The war in Europe ended in May 1945. The USA dropped bombs on Japan of its own accord in August 1945. America only stepped in on the Allies' side for financial reasons; plenty of Americans were keen supporters of the Nazis, it was purely a business decision, not one based on morality or a desire to help, pure financial gain, so no, America didn't have to step in, it wanted to step in. There was never an okay time to use them, and using them opened up a can of worms that still affects the world today, in my opinion. It may have caused the Japanese to surrender but they were well on their way to that point before America dropped the bombs by all accounts.

lol, i love how Brits say America was "late to the war" but you have the audacity to say the war was over when Germany was defeated. Shows that the Brits think ww2 was only a European war. It was CREATED by Europe, but it wasn't just a EUROPEAN war. It was a WORLD WAR. (hence the name)

I love all you Brits, monday morning quarterbacking, the UK didn't give a **** about the pacific at that point, so easy to now say "well Japan wasn't really that important, they would have surrendered...maybe, probably..." :joker:

Yes Pearl Harbor brought
America into the war
by then Hitler has declared war on America.

Japans sneak attack was well thought out.

What are you even talking about? You're quoting words that I didn't even type. I said the war in Europe was over when Germany was defeated, i.e. where the majority of the fighting had taken place precisely because it was created by Europe. The Soviet Union had the most casualties of World War II. Most of the brutal fighting took place on the Eastern front. America and Japan had their own separate conflict going on that America chose to settle by dropping two nuclear bombs on Japanese territory with the threat of dropping even more if they chose to carry on fighting. For all intents and purposes, the 'world' aspect of World War II ended in May 1945, because that's when the rest of the world put down the guns and started to clear away the rubble. Firstly I didn't say America was late to the war; but why are you even taking issue with that idea? It didn't become involved in World War II until later on. That is a fact. It became involved because it was being courted by both sides and the financial deals it made with the Allies were the more attractive proposition and that's what drove America into the war. The UK only finished paying back debts to America from World War II in the 21st century, for example.

Not that well thought out... They thought America would be intimidated by it. Pushed further back into an isolationist hole.

Japan did not predict it would stir America into an all out fury.

They didn't expect to wake the sleeping giant.

Yeah I'll bet those Japanese commanders thought "nah this won't piss them off", definitely.

actually they did, they did genuinely think that the US would be intimidated by them.

America was trying to stay out of things at the time. America was not a major military power back then.

You don't seem to understand the situation if you don't understand that., America was not the World Power you know it as today, it was just a former british colony.

You really don't understand that America was not a superpower before ww2, do you? America had no interest in being a world power back then.

The people on this forum seem to have no historical perspective, they view everything from the modern lens. You cannot understand history if you look at it from a modern perspective, you can only understand history if you can see it through the eyes of the time.

The narrative is defined by the time.

I understand the situation perfectly well. America had no desire to be drawn into the conflict unless it was on its own terms. The Japanese logic may well have been to attack American soil and intimidate America; but in what world would they have thought "this won't piss people off" exactly? Just as the Japanese vindictiveness inspired the surprise attack on Pearl Harbour, the USA got revenge (and more) by dropping two A-bombs on Japan. There is just no excuse for what they did to generations of Japanese people in my opinion, there are people alive today who are severely disabled and completely outcast from society because of complications of nuclear radiation. The USA used World War II to position itself as a global leader and to pretend that it was provoked into joining the war when it hadn't been mulling it over for years is just madness. Refugees were flooding over to American soil to get away from the war; Hitler's own nephew enlisted in the American military when he got the chance - America may not have entered the war for a couple of years but it was very much affected by it and was always going to be joining the war effort one way or another, it just took its time to pick a side.

The USA didn't "use" the situation, we just realized that the entire world was going nuts, and no one else was going to stand up so we HAD to. We were FORCED to.

Europe and Asia were piles of ruble, and if the US didn't stand up, it would be left to Communist Russia to rebuild the world in it's image.

We had no choice. Don't act like we WANTED it, or planned it. We waited til the absolute last minute to get involved, we had really hoped that Europe could sort out it's own mess.