Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 10466531)

I mean, that's all well and good TS but here you are berating women for just suggesting that trans women should have their own category with "no discussions allowed" when the reality is the actual opposite, that trans women have just been allowed to compete against women with no discussion or "focus" groups about it and women are the ones being told to deal with it and shut the **** up about it or you're a transphobe. You keep accusing women of doing the **** that transwomen are actually doing

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466535)

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466535)

It doesn't have to be one way OR the other that's the right thing to do. It doesn't have to be shut down from either side. I'm not saying it IS currently being handled well or properly, I'm saying that being reasonable the goal should be to do that and not just backlash vs backlash vs backlash.

I'm also aware that this is rarely how the world actually works but we can always dare to dream. Maybe there's a better solution that suits everyone or at least mostly everyone. Don't know if you don't try, and all that.

Originally Posted by Vienna (Post 10466543)

Well as women hugely outnumber transwomen I think a transgender section would suit mostly everyone. Case closed.

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 10466541)

No but it seems like we're not allowed speak about or discuss it. It seems like the Trans "side" are far more reluctant to debate the issue than women are. Women are being told either agree or shut up...... that is what's happening right now. Sport was changed without discussing it with women. Martina Navratolova was vilified for daring to raise concerns.

Originally Posted by Vienna (Post 10466543)

Well as women hugely outnumber transwomen I think a transgender section would suit mostly everyone. Case closed.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466558)

I just don't know that "they can just have a trans league" is really discussing the issue though? It feels dismissive to me, as admittedly an outside observer who isn't affected by either "side" of this. I'm not for a second arguing that plenty of trans activists aren't equally dismissive of women's concerns, but one doesn't excuse the other.

It seems like there should be plenty of scope for level-headed, reasonable discussion of the actual issues but no one seems willing to engage, and I doubt anyone is going to be happy until something changes.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466437)

I'm sure if you think about that though Marsh you can see the problems there. People who transition do so to transition to the opposite gender... not to "become a trans". It's not supposed to be a third gender... that's sort of the point. I mean surely you realise that comparing it to a disability is (to use one of my most hated words) problematic?

I dunno. Like I said I can't figure out a working solution to this one that doesn't involve significant "othering". i.e. "I have to sign up for the Trans events because I'm not a man / woman, I am just a Trans".

And then, do you have a M2F category and a F2M category? Or do you just lump 'em all together and hope that it all hormonally and physically evens out?

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 10466571)

Erm... I didn't compare them to a disability. I simply used an example of a section of our society who would otherwise be excluded from elite sports being able to still compete without an unfair advantage/disadvantage.

Don't put words in my mouth. :unsure:

Yeah, it's not supposed to be a third gender. But this isn't about gender, it's about sex and their physical makeup.

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466497)

Right but I see a lot of people agreeing about the problem, with very little willingness to talk about any potential solution to that problem. Which is odd and why I often come away from these topics feeling like it's just a flood of dogma.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466561)

https://i.gifer.com/3DoM.gif

Go away Brillo.

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey (Post 10466579)

Well i mean other than it being ridiculously unfair the main concern i think should be safety.Safety should trump hurty feelz.
Womens safety is put at risk in team sports and combat sports(i can’t even believe mtf were allowed to get in the ring with biological females ever).

It can’t just carry on until a woman is seriously injured or killed.

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories.I can’t possibly think of a better solution.

Originally Posted by Niamh. (Post 10466569)

BIB - Totally wrong, transwomen in sport are unwilling to engage unless you agree with them on it. Rachel McKinnon for example (the trans cyclist who Martina Navratoliva had the initial back and forth with) refused to debate the issue on her recent radio appearance so the radio station canceled the opposing debater :shrug:

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 10466571)

It's no more "othering" than having male and female categories. It's pretty simple but people are just fearful of causing offence when really there's nothing offensive about it.

Originally Posted by Dezzy (Post 10466576)

It's not fair for MtF trans people to compete with cis women, you can't edge out female athletes out of their sport and career for not being born a male.

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey (Post 10466579)

The only possible solution imo is seperate categories. I can’t possibly think of a better solution.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466593)

"I think we should set up a multi-year focus group to look into this issue and think about the best way forward and possible inclusive solutions."

"Oh wait, there's no point because someone on TiBB couldn't think of a better solution in the time it took to read the SD thread about it."


Come on Monkey. You can't possibly be suggesting that because you can't ponder out another solution in 5 minutes, there definitely isn't one.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466590)

OK well when I say "no one" seems willing, I should clarify that I mean it seems (to me) that very few people on either "side" seem willing, not that literally no one has tried.



Hmmmm OK but being honest, I still can't get my head around this being anything other than "Male / Female / Miscellaneous" categorisation and when it comes to gender issues that seems like the very crux of "othering". I'm not trans though so I can't claim to know, I'm only trying my best to empathise with both sides, in stating that no... MtF transexuals probably shouldn't be allowed to compete with women but I uderstand why that sucks for them and serves as a constant reminder that they are "other".



I mean I don't know how many times I can realistically repeat that I agree with this, I'm starting to worry that I'm in a fugue state and haven't literally said it 10+ times.

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey (Post 10466607)

True i’m no expert on this topic(or any).All i have is my opinion and that is it.

The focus group is a good idea and most likely similar to what will happen.
Hopefully with many knowledgeable experts.

I still don’t think they will come up with a better solution.
I mean what is there other than handicapping(which will still have the effect of ‘othering’) or future medical advances.
It may be a case of separate categories in the short term until some kind of technology is invented.
In combat sports with regard handicapping what could possibly be done now to even the playing field of a person who has gone through male puberty punching a biological woman repeatedly in the head?Maybe tie one arm behind their back?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466628)

Allow drugs and bionic enhancements for all, completely negate the physical advantage of being male because everyone has synthetic muscle mass or hydraulic limbs anyway. Completely unethical but wildly entertaining?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466524)

It's a very strong statement that "trans people" are a third separate gender that is neither male nor female. I know that a lot of people think that way; but I would hazard a guess that very few trans individuals think that way and I think the suggestion that they should just accept that as the "simple" solution with no further discussion is highly dismissive of the issues in a way that I just don't understand.

I understand it not being feasible for (especially) MtF transexuals to compete in female sports competitions but I don't understand, at all, the resistance to anyone properly exploring and discussing what is possible. |There's a lot of "NO! NEVER! We'll just do THIS and that's fine and they'll just have to accept that, end of." and again, always with these discussions I'm left wondering ... why? Why does it have to be "as simple as ..."? Why are we not saying "Yeah this doesn't really work, it would probably be a good idea if the various sporting organisations set up focus groups to figure out how to make each sport inclusive and fair at the same time". Like... the idea that we've explored all of the possibilities properly and thoroughly is just not true... but there seems to be a real (dare I say it) revulsion at the idea of even doing that and that it isn't a case of "No just no".

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 10466696)

Sport is segregated by sex for good reason. People should compete with those of their own sex really. And no, this does not mean transmen will have to compete with female people because basically, if they are on testosterone they are doping. If they are not doping, then there is no issue with them competing with females...but honestly they can compete with men if they want as the advantage is not there the other way.

I actually think a fairly decent solution is to have female sport, and 'other'. Transwomen, nor transmen will have a natural advantage over men. Can't see that going down very well though.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466732)

Well one thing I thought was that the categories could just be... like... "Everyone", and then separate leagues for JUST biological women, but does that not seem a bit... patronising?

By which I mean, literally anyone could try compete in the "main" league (including any female who wants to), and then a separate league for those who don't feel able to compete in the main league. :umm2: I don't know how to make this sound good TBF.

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 10466753)

A female league for females who want to compete on an even level...but females could also enter the 'other' if they chose...I can't see any woman ever winning in that section though because, biology. But the choice is there, and it does not disadvantage blokes. Win win, surely?

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466758)

Depends on the sport, surely... e.g. I've never really understood why there are male and female events for things like precision shooting at the olympics :think:. Same with darts, snooker, I think even chess championships are divided by gender? Can't really figure out why when it comes to those.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466758)

Depends on the sport, surely... e.g. I've never really understood why there are male and female events for things like precision shooting at the olympics :think:. Same with darts, snooker, I think even chess championships are divided by gender? Can't really figure out why when it comes to those.

Originally Posted by Alf (Post 10466768)

Women do play darts with men, they were in the PDC World championships in December for the first time.



The best female player in the world, Lisa Ashton was knocked out by average male player Jan Decker in the first round, the other female in it, Dobromislova, also knocked out in the first round by an average male player.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10466732)

Well one thing I thought was that the categories could just be... like... "Everyone", and then separate leagues for JUST biological women, but does that not seem a bit... patronising?

By which I mean, literally anyone could try compete in the "main" league (including any female who wants to), and then a separate league for those who don't feel able to compete in the main league. :umm2: I don't know how to make this sound good TBF.

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 10466931)

Erm... yeah, the ten tonne bodybuilder versus the skinny woman with a missing leg. The "everyone" category really works. :)

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 10466947)

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with a male and female trans category :shrug:

Originally Posted by Marsh. (Post 10466309)

Why not get a trans-athlete?

Or at least someone other than the twat that is India Willoughby speaking on behalf of transpeople in every god damn TV segment.

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy (Post 10467012)

Of course they have a massive advantage !they are men when you peel away with surgery

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 10466947)

I don't know why anyone would have an issue with a male and female trans category :shrug:

Originally Posted by Ant. (Post 10467032)

I imagine it's because it can be seen as excluding trans people possibly? Even if there is a reason and yes, they are trans men/trans women, I imagine the question of "we're women why are we being separated from cis women?"

---

Personally I'd want the option that offends less people, but at the same time, if we have the Olympics and Paralympics, I find it hard to argue that there shouldn't be trans categories

And if there weren't trans categories, trans athletes would still be hounded with questions and people saying "they had an advantage!!", so I don't think there's a side that wins

Originally Posted by Livia (Post 10466499)

The solution is that no one should be able to compete in women's competitions unless they have the x chromosome.