There will always be people who will abuse it unfortunately. We'll agree to disagree on this one. There will always be risks. People get assaulted in bathrooms regardless of trans or not. You have cubicles anyway.

I will never agree to disagree on this subject I'm afraid Thomas, it's too important for the safety of women and girls. Why should women and girls be "acceptable collateral damage" just to validate a man's feelings? We should not and we will not.

your disdain for what amounts to 50% of the worlds population is pretty abhorrent from my perspective. So by your same logic, lets not raise our voices about gays being thrown off of rooftops in muslim countries, lets not speak out and try and protect them. Does that sound ok to you?

It is but that balancing act should not include male-bodied people who still largely present as men having access to women’s facilities based on “gender identity”.

Trans status is a protected characteristic and has been for YEARS. “Gender identity” is not and there’s no reason for it to be. That is the balance. Transitioned people have been using these facilities for years without challenge. Current trans rights activism is trying to push it into this nebulous area of gender ideology and that is the issue… people just don’t seem willing to even discuss that and push it back to being about trans women as the term has classically been understood… I can only guess because they know it is very hard to make a good case for what’s actually being discussed, thus easier to make out that those with concerns are just bigoted about trans issues in general.

its not just about bathrooms I don't know why people get hung up on bathrooms, for example Thomas do you think a transwoman with a penis who has been assaulted by her partner should have access to a woman only refuge?

Nope, your words not mine.

Also vetting to work with children is completely different.

You're assuming that someone who has transitioned shouldn't use a female bathroom because they might be, what, violent, towards another female or not use it as intended? Yes, of course, it is a possibility. Just like it's a possibility that I could be attacked in a male bathroom

I don't know what the solution is, but I just think it's a shame that someone who genuinely identifies as a woman and has undergone hormone replacement therapy and changed their genitalia would still be expected to use a male bathroom and feel ridiculed, embarrassment for it

So you are not accepting that they have gone through the change them as you say a 'man's feelings'

You're going back to "who has transitioned" again so respectfully, maybe you should read up a little bit more on the current thinking from the trans activists side on this because we're not arguing the same points here at all

Let's create a possible scenario.

A young girl of school age goes into the changing room at the swimming baths and the only person in there is a trans-woman that still has their meat and two veg in tact and has it all out on display. Do you not see a problem with that Thomas?

Again, you're arguing a different point here to what the current line of thinking on this ideology is. We're not talking about fully transitioned transsexuals here at all, as TS has pointed out already these people have been using women's bathrooms etc for years with no real issues from women. These people are not the problem

Trans men pose no realistic risk to biological males. Trying to equate the two is nonsense. If I walk into the men’s toilets and a woman is stood there … what is the implication? What’s the threat? Nothing, If just assume they walked into the wrong room.

If a woman walks into a womens toilets and there’s a 6’ 200lb bloke stood there the threat is very real and immediate. Is that because all men are dangerous? Obviously not - he might just have gone in the wrong door too - that’s not the point.

I've just put my point across from what I feel would be the perspective of someone who has gone through that transition. Of course there are risks.

How can you compare someone who has transitioned and whether they can or cannot use a slmale and female bathroom to Muslims, Sharia law and being chucked off buildings. Ridiculous

There's no such thing as a "female who used to be male", you can't change being male or female.

Well, as long as You're All Right Jack.

There's no such thing as someone having transitioned, there's just male and female people who try to appear as the opposite, maybe with the aid of cross-sex hormones and/or surgery.

It's not as much of a talking point because of male socialisation, men are more likely to demand what they want, and in this case it's case to women's spaces.

Bathrooms may be over-represented in the discussion, but it's quite simple - as soon as a transwoman enters a woman's bathroom, it ceases to be a woman-only space. Bathrooms are more accessible and universal than sports or refuges.

I'm not sure as they haven't gone through the full transition. They need support regardless. My view is that if that was how they identified them would it be fair for me to judge?

let's not just in eurovision create a better world of love and peace, but let's also do that in the real world


and i myself respect all activists but it would be better if we wouldn't need them anymore if the world only had good people


one of our tv preachers ''Dominee Gremdaat'' said it in a speech like that last night on one of my nation's talkshows Half8

As a man it's nice and comfortable to be that kind and charitable but there's no real threat to men by being nice and accommodating to any one who says they're the opposite sex, is there?

The logical solution would be for Trans-women to have their own spaces, but even that creates a problem because that costs money and it would be wasted money for a very small percentage of society. For example you wouldn't want to waste money on a prison for a very small amount of criminals.

That’s exactly what the anti-trans movement want to do, they’d quite happily take away the already existing rights of trans people to share spaces, all on the chance that a tiny minority of people would be willing to abuse it, all while shouting that it’s their rights that are being taken away, it’s actually pretty laughable, even more so considering these people are actually in the minority themselves considering polling that’s been done, the majority of women have no issue with transwomen using the same bathrooms as them.

But take note of the type of person they use to whip up fear though, they’re constantly talking about the ‘big, buff, bearded men’ that want to use their toilets, it’s purposeful, it’s tactless and quite frankly it’s bigoted at its core, but hey, we’re not allowed to have opinions on it because we’re gay men, so I’d stop now if I were you.

They don't need a separate space, male spaces already exist :shrug:
If they don't want to use those, there are always disabled toilets etc

I mean you post that on this thread with the video that's attached.....

But they don't want to use male spaces so then they become victims and start sueing people.

The bit in bold is considered transphobic according to current TRA doctrine, just FYI; you are now a transphobe. Welcome! It's a very non-exclusive club with ridiculously low entry requirements (any dissent from the dogma will do the trick).

For the second part... it's not about "judging" it's about safeguarding, and I'm now genuinely concerned that you actually DON'T understand what safeguarding is. It's not about judgement. It's not about thinking people are definitely a risk. It's about understanding and accepting that a tiny proportion of people ARE a risk, and taking appropriate measures to reduce that risk.

Imagine someone going for a job working with vulnerable kids and declaring "How dare you accuse me of being a risk to kids???" when asked for their disclosure documentation.

Yes there is threat, but I would say more likely less of a threat.

Under equality law and protected characteristic, gender reassignment being one of them a decision made to deny someone, for example, to use a female bathroom would have to be proportionate.

I found this article very balanced and fair

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/t...s-b992398.html

Nice to read I'm not going 100% mad in my thought process.

Like you say, a minority of people would abuse it just like anything in life, hey?

Nice to hear about the polling.

The majority of people don't know about the push for self-ID changes to the law (including people on this thread; or at least they pretend not to) so that part's pretty meaningless. Self-IS opens up a massive loophole that allows men (not trans women) access to women-only spaces. That can and will be exploited (and already has been; assaults and rapes have already occurred). That's going to continue to be the case no matter how hard you try to pretend it isn't, or that the "real issue" is "transphobes having a problem with genuine trans people". You simply don't want to discuss the actual issue so you repeatedly make it about something else, and insist that the issue people are concerned about doesn't exist.

Key word here being Gender reassignment Thomas not Gender Identity. You keep avoiding this part of the discussion

Gender reassignment and gender identity are not the same thing. There's no point discussing this issue at all with someone who doesn't (or refuses to) understand that.

When talking about things in the abstract, I'm sure a lot of women wouldn't have a problem with transwomen in their spaces and sports. But when confronted with realities (Lia Thomas) it puts things in a different light.

I'm not avoiding anything.

Sorry to make myself clear, I am on about those who have undergone gender reassignment.

Anyone can claim to be a different sex, but having gone through a long and hard procedure is completely different imo.

Although I like to take people on face value and think that if someone says they are in the process of transition, but haven't yet then they are being genuine. There will be those who have alteria motives unfortunately and then those who have gender disphoria

Well OK, gender reassignment is a different thing altogether. I had absolutely no issue with this whole topic until the push for Self ID and this whole religion of Gender Identity took over the movement. I mean have you watched the video in the OP? You can't actually look at those men in Balaclavas threatening and attacking women and tell me you think they're genuine trans women? I mean come oooon

Are you a trans woman?

Because if not, you should take your own advice you give out to others when they dare to talk about gay issues.

:shrug:

They are males with an inverted penis that looks like a vagina, and steroid fattened man boobs.

They are still male.

Nah I don't think they are genuine. Yeah I watched it

I do feel bad for genuine transsexuals and I genuinely believe that the way this movement has been hijacked is going to end up effecting actual transsexuals in a negative way.

I got the idea from the video that it was just people who wanted to feel a sense of purpose for the wrong reasons, but still to make themselves feel important about something and were just doing it for attention

There are a lot of people like that who have piggy backed the trans movement with their own misogynistic agenda, this is why women are worried about our spaces

Yeah I get that.

Like you say, it's a shame for those who genuinely are trans

I'm actually starting to go down the Alf-esque conspiracy theory route with it and would go as far as saying I think it was sparked deliberately. Not that the people who are involved or identify a certain way are doing anything deliberate, but the Identity Zeitgeist in general... ... ... I'm starting to think seems designed to damage the rights of women, trans people and ultimately gay men as well which I said in another thread; when that allyship is no longer needed "for the numbers", gay men will be filed alongside lesbians as "genital fetishists" for being exclusively attracted to male bodies.

The only people who will get to plod on as normal with few personal concerns are straight natal males (and I say that AS one) and that should really say a lot. Who benefits from this battle? It's not women, and it's not the trans community or any other part of LGBT. But there certainly ARE people who benefit from pushing the edges of this bubble until it bursts. Hyperindividualist gender identity politics is the worst thing that's happened to actual LGBT rights since progress started being made at all.

Yes it is, absolutely

Yep, yep and yep. I have to say if it wasn't so damaging I'd be impressed by how they've managed to do this as well. It's pretty genius