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-   -   baby dies when his mom 'FORGOT' him !!! (https://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343985)

Vicky. 29-07-2018 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10112670)
All I can say is, anyone who "doesn't believe in this" or thinks that "something like this could never happen to them"... You don't understand this element of human cognition or the potential effects of stress and distraction on memory. It could happen to anyone. Including you. If you're sure it couldn't, you are simply wrong, and most of the people this has happened to would have said exactly the same thing before it happened.

Also; it happens a LOT more than we generally hear about because it usually isn't fatal. The parent will spontaneously remember, or they'll notice just as they get out of the car / turn to get a bag etc from the back seat, or it'll be a short time away from the car, or a temperate day. Also several cases where other people have noticed and raised the alarm / smashed a window / called the police. In all of these cases the child isn't harmed, so we don't hear about it. For every horrible case like this that hits the news, there are a dozen others that have ended, thankfully, without a death.

So yeah... It's not uncommon, at all. To the extent that I personally think new cars should have safety features implemented to ensure that it can't happen. I think aftermarket solutions do exist already, but they should be "as standard" in my opinion, and a legal requirement like seat belts / carseats.

Definitely agree with this, and surely it wouldn't be that had to do either..

I hate stories like this as my immediate thought is to call for the parents head, not going to lie. But of course its something tht can just happen. At the same time there IS the element of it could be on purpose and it would be an 'easy' way to get away with murdering a child...I am sure there was a story like this where the father did do it on purpose.

Either way, horrendous story and RIP to the little one :(

Vicky. 29-07-2018 09:01 AM

And yes, as a parent I have forgotten about my child on occasion, but luckily nothing came of it..though it was only for a very short period of time, like my son was off school ill and was asleep and I was geting ready to go to the shop, totally forgetting that he was in bed upstairs as he should have been at school, I remembered before I went out mind but I did temporarily forget while I was getting ready (and yes LT, I am on opiates..not sure why thats relevant). I don't think this mean I should not be a parent though.

Crimson Dynamo 29-07-2018 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 10113340)

I hate stories like this as my immediate thought is to call for the parents head

:idc:

yes one comes to mind doesent it

Vicky. 29-07-2018 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 10113353)
:idc:

yes one comes to mind doesent it

Yes, but that one was quite different. That was parents intentionally leaving their children to go get pissed. If it turns out this parent left their child on purpose and the child died, then I will have as much anger for her as those ones. Just those ones admitted that they left their kids on purpose :idc:

user104658 29-07-2018 09:20 AM

I think I've said before on here, I've done it the other way before, when our youngest started nursery. She's always been quiet in the car, just sits peacefully so you don't really notice her... We had dropped the kids off at school / nursery then Awent for some shopping then driven home, and I got out the car then opened the back door to get the youngest out and had a moment of "Oh my god we've left her at the supermarket!!". Like a genuine horrible shock before remembering that she had started nursery and was there safe and sound.

I can understand how it happens the other way round. All it takes is a brief lapse of concentration in an exhausted parent, and they'll be sat at their desk at work fully believing that their child is safely in childcare. (As for people saying that "normal parents" call every half hour to check up on their kids in childcare... Err... No? That's not really normal? They have contact details for you if something is wrong.)

Again though it does need to be looked at to see if there's anything suspicious but with the assumption being that there won't be. Frankly (and morbidly) it ISN'T a particularly foolproof or devious murder plot, not in a car park that's actively being used, as again this actually happens a lot more than is reported - usually someone notices and raises the alarm and things end well.

Vicky. 29-07-2018 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier (Post 10113360)
(As for people saying that "normal parents" call every half hour to check up on their kids in childcare... Err... No? That's not really normal? They have contact details for you if something is wrong.)

Yeas thats ****ing ridiculous IMO. I have never rang to see if my kids were OK at nursery...they ring you if theres any problems. Mind, my nursery also ring if the child is off and you haven't contacted them to let them know why...which is a good idea too.

user104658 29-07-2018 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 10113353)
:idc:

yes one comes to mind doesent it

The key word there would be "immediate" LT - if more information about this case comes out the opinions will change. Its a bit different to a case where information has been widely available for a decade.

AnnieK 29-07-2018 09:26 AM

I never rang nursery either apart from the first couple of days when he was unsettled going in. In fact they actively discouraged it as a member of staff had to leave the room to answer the phone.

Vicky. 29-07-2018 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnieK (Post 10113373)
I never rang nursery either apart from the first couple of days when he was unsettled going in. In fact they actively discouraged it as a member of staff had to leave the room to answer the phone.

Of course. If every parent rang every half hour to check on their kids, the phonelines would be blocked for starters, and the staff would be overrun. Its just a stupid thing to say and if any parent genuinely does ring every half hour, I think they have issues tbh

Ammi 29-07-2018 09:37 AM

..I think for me it’s not a thing of...HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN/bad mother, type thing...but more HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN to a good mother..is what I’m going to assume she is...I mean, how could that happen not just to her but to a rising number of parents as is being said in the article...?...it’s looking at the stress being placed on lives in the modern day, which should never ever contribute in such proportions felt to this happening to a child...

...there are links in our thought processes as TS has said...and with those links, subconscious risk assessments that we are not aware of are made as well that would prevent from a parent not realising for the whole day that their child was still in a car in extreme heat temperatures...as Annie said, she was left outside of the shop in a prom by her mum because back in the day, outside of a shop was the ‘norm’ for a pram with a baby in it..so a safe place as it were...it was also more the norm I would say to have someone notice a mother go past with two children but return with only one and approach that person and say...oh what did you do with the other one..:laugh:...anyways, she may have made her whole way home without realising because she had left our Annie in a safe place so far as her head connections were concerned...so it can take a longer time to come to that realisation...and as Vicky said, she’s forgotten about a child on occasion, probably a juggling balls type occassii with stress linked to it but I don’t think it was so much ‘lucky’ no harm came, I think again, it was more of a subconscious risk assessment thought and link, type thing in knowing her children were in a safe place...I might be wrong but...anyways, many parents I have known, have forgotten to collect their child from school, it’s completely escaped their mind on that particular day and mostly through employment related things and stresses etc...and it’s sad to see but it’s still that ‘risk assessment’ sub conscious link in knowing their child is in a safe place...the school staff are not going to push them out and tell them to walk home across all of the busy roads etc and with all potential dangers...


...those type of things are more the ‘norm’ type of things but an increasing number of parents leaving their baby in a car for such a length of time in extreme heat which should alert every instinct of risk assessment in their very being are most definately not the norm I would say...but also not intentional either...so it’s looking at the stresses of modern parents, how this could ever happen to such an extreme...it’s looking at help obviously with this mother right now and with the whole family because this has happened, sadly...but it’s also looking at any possible prevent for the future...any signs of extreme stress in the juggling of parental and work lives...because this should never, ever have happened with all of the sub conscious risk assesments...I mean, how can this have happened to anyone, any mother, any child...I don’t know if there is an answer but can anything be done and looked at that would help to prevent these rising numbers...either within the workplace, with social care, with friends or family etc...just in anyway whatsoever...do babies have to die in such awful ways before it’s realised that life balances are not working for everyone and sometimes they’re tipping very dangerously...and if that is ever noticed with one person, it shouldn’t be ignored by anyone...


...poor child, poor mother, poor family...:sad:..

Cherie 29-07-2018 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 10113364)
Yeas thats ****ing ridiculous IMO. I have never rang to see if my kids were OK at nursery...they ring you if theres any problems. Mind, my nursery also ring if the child is off and you haven't contacted them to let them know why...which is a good idea too.

I dont think anyone suggested parents were ringing every half hour, the baby was 3 months old so realistically how long could he have being going to the nursery, I remember when I put my eldest in nursery at 9 months ringing in my lunchbreak to check as it would have been a new experience for him, obviously if your childs first experience of nursery is at age 3 this is a different issue, an easy way to prevent incidents like this is to put a policy in place that if a baby is expected at nursery and they dont turn up with no notification, the staff are obliged to call the parents.

Vicky. 29-07-2018 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 10113399)
I dont think anyone suggested parents were ringing every half hour, the baby was 3 months old so realistically how long could he have being going to the nursery, I remember when I put my eldest in nursery at 9 months ringing in my lunchbreak to check as it would have been a new experience for him, obviously if your childs first experience of nursery is at age 3 this is a different issue, an easy way to prevent incidents like this is to put a policy in place that if a baby is expected at nursery and they dont turn up with no notification, the staff are obliged to call the parents.

yup, I actually assumed all nurserys would be like mine.

Crimson Dynamo 29-07-2018 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 10113399)
I dont think anyone suggested parents were ringing every half hour, the baby was 3 months old so realistically how long could he have being going to the nursery, I remember when I put my eldest in nursery at 9 months ringing in my lunchbreak to check as it would have been a new experience for him, obviously if your childs first experience of nursery is at age 3 this is a different issue, an easy way to prevent incidents like this is to put a policy in place that if a baby is expected at nursery and they dont turn up with no notification, the staff are obliged to call the parents.

this is what happens at my primary

kirklancaster 29-07-2018 11:55 AM

I'm sorry, but on this - as with most subjects on here - I will adhere to my intuition, logic and personal experience.

T.S - I respect your qualification, but to be honest, as far as I am concerned,'facts' from the fields of psychology and cognitive neuroscience are not facts at all but mere 'theory'.

In my opinion, and as far as psychologists and psychiatrists are concerned, a great number of them need to heed the advice of Jesus in Luke 4.23; 'Physician, heal thyself' because they are among the loopiest people in existence.

If not for the 'expert' input of some of them at parole board hearings certifying the would-be parolees as 'cured', many twisted evil killers would NOT have been released early from their long prison sentences to kill again.

I know that every human is 'different' mentally and psychologically and that we all react to 'stress' differently, but all over the planet throughout history, there have been and are mothers who struggle to fend off debt whilst raising multiple kids and though some of them may, at times, have had temporary lapses of memory, they did not forget all about a 3 months old baby for almost an entire day.

And THAT is my point; that this was a 3 months old baby.

Which parent - no matter how stressed or distracted they might be, could spend a full day without their virtual new-born baby entering their thoughts?

Seriously?

And would not thinking about that baby have 'jogged' her memory? - caused doubts to surface about whether she HAD dropped off the baby or not?

I have had to turn the car around several times when we had set off for some night out because my wife had suddenly raised doubts about whether she had turned off the iron/her straighteners/locked the door or not - never mind leaving a three months old baby in the back of a searing hot parked car.

LT actually makes a succinct but highly valid point when he said: 'I bet she didn't forget her mobile phone' and I'm sorry but SOMETHING about this whole tragic incident does not 'sit right' with me.

If the story is genuine, then Livia is correct and this 'mother' needs to think very carefully about having any more babies, and if it is not, then I hope the truth is eventually ascertained and this 'mother' gets her just dessert.

Cherie 29-07-2018 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 10113410)
yup, I actually assumed all nurserys would be like mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 10113421)
this is what happens at my primary

I don't think this is a policy in private nurseries where this baby would have been, only when children enter 'the system' via free nursery places and schools are they obliged to keep records of non attendance

Private nurseries could put this policy in place easily and levy an admin charge against parents who do not bother to let them know the baby will be attending.

Cherie 29-07-2018 12:21 PM

I was called by my primary school to say he wasn't there when he was in school :skull:

Crimson Dynamo 29-07-2018 12:25 PM

Id be interested to see what "medication" this lady was on if any

I guess the police look at this first

Shaun 29-07-2018 12:32 PM

It's neglect, pure and simple, and she should be prosecuted. I don't care how preoccupied you are, your #1 thought at all times should be the baby you're looking after and I just can't ever imagine being so absent-minded as to forget I've left him/her in the car.

Crimson Dynamo 29-07-2018 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 10113620)
It's neglect, pure and simple, and she should be prosecuted. I don't care how preoccupied you are, your #1 thought at all times should be the baby you're looking after and I just can't ever imagine being so absent-minded as to forget I've left him/her in the car.

and certainly not ALL DAY

Kazanne 29-07-2018 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet (Post 10113632)
and certainly not ALL DAY

It's the ALL DAY thing that gets me tbh,ok some might forget for 5 mins or so,but a whole day, Would this child be in a nursery at 3 mths old:shrug: mine is 5 mths plus and all I seem to do all day is cuddle,feed,change and chat to her,no way on Gods earth could I forget her, I am with those who think this doesn't sit right,surely someone would have also asked how her baby was,surely that would jog your memory, I always look round my car as I get out,don't most people?

Vicky. 29-07-2018 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 10113609)
I was called by my primary school to say he wasn't there when he was in school :skull:

Yup this happened to me once too. I **** myself...I was absolutely beside myself with worry about how the hell he could have been taken from school..I ran to the school and it turned out that the teacher had just marked him not in when he was ffs. I went bazzerk, and was told if I did not calm down they would call the police, and since it turned out everything was fine I should be happy, not angry!

Vicky. 29-07-2018 11:05 PM

https://www.babyalert.info/design/index.html

All parents should have one of these grandparents too..or anyone who has regular contact with young children :/

Also an interesting and horrific read on this topic

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...=.668c22ae1343

Maru 30-07-2018 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster (Post 10113571)
I'm sorry, but on this - as with most subjects on here - I will adhere to my intuition, logic and personal experience.

T.S - I respect your qualification, but to be honest, as far as I am concerned,'facts' from the fields of psychology and cognitive neuroscience are not facts at all but mere 'theory'.

In my opinion, and as far as psychologists and psychiatrists are concerned, a great number of them need to heed the advice of Jesus in Luke 4.23; 'Physician, heal thyself' because they are among the loopiest people in existence.

1) I agree. Doctors can be reactionary just like any one of us and opinion can supercede common sense. Whatever their degree or field of expertise, humans are not infallible. Psych is a relatively new field in many ways, and going by the state of how that's working and how people are further and further moving from self-management to complete dependence, I think we're quite a ways away from having that be even well understood.... that's my opinion.

2) Add to that, the emphasis on psych and laws to "fix"/"patch" life in such a way to remove all the head work seems to come down to wanting to limit as much personal responsibility as possible for every individual. "Well they should have laws for this... put up another barrier here...add incentives, remove incentives there...". Checks & balances and laws will never trump stupidity... there's warnings for everything now and people can still be quite careless.

3) Just to give an example of how this can work: During the tax day flood a few years ago, this young lady went AROUND a barrier AND an officer sitting at a checkpoint with lights to GO into an underpass at 5am in the morning when it is still pouring and is FLOODED,... yeah... the inevitable happens and there's video of her cries for help flashing her cell phone out the back window of her car as it's sinking. The man at the checkpoint SWAM to go get her, but had to turn back because there was a real risk he would've ended up in peril as well (again, bad weather).. fast-forward and her mother was on TV right away saying what a tragedy it was, but it's because they should've had an electronic gate AS well as the closed gate (the manual one) AND the guard... "like they have in these other cities I have seen on TV", etc... and the city wanting good PR, they put up the damn gate... um, your daughter DROVE around the checkmarks? Clearly marked, NOT SAFE! She actively avoided all the very obvious signs she was about to put herself in danger... who is to say she wouldn't have gotten flooded out on another road further on the way home... it only takes about a ft of fast-moving water to pull a car into the current, so she could've gotten herself in trouble elsewhere... but no, it's the city's fault and everyone else for not putting more warnings... when it is already literally polluted with signage, water guages, on both the roads and underpasses... there's no excuse and I think we're too quick to argue for more "fail-safes" rather than more self-accountability... my 2 cents.

4) Now granted, that lady in #3 may very well be different as a parent, and I think that's also the struggle that some people may be having in relation to this story...

Quote:

If not for the 'expert' input of some of them at parole board hearings certifying the would-be parolees as 'cured', many twisted evil killers would NOT have been released early from their long prison sentences to kill again.

I know that every human is 'different' mentally and psychologically and that we all react to 'stress' differently, but all over the planet throughout history, there have been and are mothers who struggle to fend off debt whilst raising multiple kids and though some of them may, at times, have had temporary lapses of memory, they did not forget all about a 3 months old baby for almost an entire day.

And THAT is my point; that this was a 3 months old baby.

Which parent - no matter how stressed or distracted they might be, could spend a full day without their virtual new-born baby entering their thoughts?

Seriously?

And would not thinking about that baby have 'jogged' her memory? - caused doubts to surface about whether she HAD dropped off the baby or not?

I have had to turn the car around several times when we had set off for some night out because my wife had suddenly raised doubts about whether she had turned off the iron/her straighteners/locked the door or not - never mind leaving a three months old baby in the back of a searing hot parked car.
Me. :skull: Flat-irons, dogs... the doors I can monitor through our alarm system, so there's no running home for that anymore because it won't arm otherwise or it will say disabled when I login to arm... and 99.5% of the time, I did remember anyway. :laugh:

Quote:

LT actually makes a succinct but highly valid point when he said: 'I bet she didn't forget her mobile phone' and I'm sorry but SOMETHING about this whole tragic incident does not 'sit right' with me.

If the story is genuine, then Livia is correct and this 'mother' needs to think very carefully about having any more babies, and if it is not, then I hope the truth is eventually ascertained and this 'mother' gets her just dessert.
All that said, kirk, while I agree with your points... I do tend to be very hesistant myself to raise a pitchfork with these kinds of stories and to pass ultimate judgement... but I do have to say, that having more checks is not going to "fix" stupid... and we're all prone to stupid. To that end, I respond very similarly to Ashley here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley. (Post 10112655)
The most important responsibility as a parent is putting your child's needs above your own. Of course she didn't leave him in the car on purpose, but an innocent life was lost because she failed to be a parent that day. She'll receive the punishment of having to live with her actions for the rest of her life, and heaven forbid she has any more children

Giving it that thought, it doesn't mean that her act was not careless and didn't amount to neglect. It does and I'm not OK with just giving a pass because "reasons". We all have reasons for the dumb things we do, but we understandably have to be accountable for them. Doesn't make the grieving process easier.. in fact, I don't how it would. In her shoes, I wouldn't be thinking of how other people thought of my mistake, nor care about pitchforks. I would be absolutely devestated. The "fall-out" of public opinion would be the LEAST of my concerns...

We can't eliminate all the perils in life for peace-of-mind... if an individual really needs to depend on gadgets and gizmos and third parties to tell us how to parent, then they likely won't be very good parents in more practical ways... in fact, I think actually that would affect my own ability to care for someone else in a meaningful way, the anxiety that would introduce (having to constantly "check in" with something)... I think it would just make me more aware of those perils and rather anxious...

So on that point, not everyone can afford a car with top-level safety features.. moreover, it's pushing up the price of every car and the overall standard of living the more laws and regulations we add just for edge-cases.. and we are still worried about poverty? It doesn't prevent people from being stupid. Unless your car can CALL your phone if you leave somene in the car, and even then your phone could be dead, on silent, and that means even more gizmos your car would need to make that happen... and when it malfunctions in an annoying way, more sh** to fix.

I will say too in my case, there was a point when I had severe memory loss from strange reaction to medication.. but then I had to stop driving for that reason, Much less using my gas stove or heating anything that could lead to the home being burnt down... no "safety" features would've helped in those cases, because my mind would go blank... so yeah, I can see if someone is that anxiety-prone where their brain goes on the fritz, it could certainly affect things like that and I wouldn't say in those cases those people are safe to drive if they tend to "switch off"... not good.

TDLR: Blah blah blah... read the post.

Marsh. 30-07-2018 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicky. (Post 10114829)
https://www.babyalert.info/design/index.html

All parents should have one of these grandparents too..or anyone who has regular contact with young children :/

Also an interesting and horrific read on this topic

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...=.668c22ae1343

Quote:

Each instance has its own macabre signature. One father had parked his car next to the grounds of a county fair; as he discovered his son’s body, a calliope tootled merrily beside him. Another man, wanting to end things quickly, tried to wrestle a gun from a police officer at the scene. Several people -- including Mary Parks of Blacksburg -- have driven from their workplace to the day-care center to pick up the child they’d thought they’d dropped off, never noticing the corpse in the back seat.
:worry:

Marsh. 30-07-2018 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster (Post 10113571)
I'm their long prison sentences to kill again.

I know that every human is 'different' mentally and psychologically and that we all react to 'stress' differently, but all over the planet throughout history, there have been and are mothers who struggle to fend off debt whilst raising multiple kids and though some of them may, at times, have had temporary lapses of memory, they did not forget all about a 3 months old baby for almost an entire day.

And THAT is my point; that this was a 3 months old baby.

Which parent - no matter how stressed or distracted they might be, could spend a full day without their virtual new-born baby entering their thoughts?

Seriously?

But, it's not that the baby doesn't enter their thoughts at all, but that they believe the baby to be with the caregiver?

We're not talking about people forgetting the existence of their children, but being so distracted they believe they've dropped the child off at daycare.


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